by Auldheid for the Scottish Football Monitor
On these pages at least there is a mounting lack of trust that the Scottish Football Association can or will govern our game in a fair and honest manner that recognises the principle of sporting integrity as paramount.
This mistrust is equalled only by the frustration at being unable to do anything to change the attitude and action of those at the SFA (and Leagues) responsible for that governance, a frustration compounded by the reluctance of the mainstream media to focus on the very issues of trust and integrity that concern us.
Back in early 2010 Celtic supporters represented by the Celtic Trust, various Association groups and individuals felt the same frustration and found a way to make their voices heard at the SFA – by using their club as a channel of communication to articulate their concerns.
A resolution was agreed and passed to Celtic to convey to the SFA and it was heeded by the club. There is no reason in why a similar conduit cannot be used by supporters groups of all clubs.
The enormity of the task, to get the majority of trusts and associations of all clubs to support this approach and give it sufficient weight, should not be underestimated, but in the interests of amplifying our voice, it is worth the effort.
Based on that 2010 experience, and on the discussion that has taken place on TSFM we have arrived at a (now amended) resolution below under the auspices of TSFM and which has been sent to all representative club supporters groups.
We believe one of the reasons the SFA and SPL were able to mislead (or simply fail to provide leadership) was because of the lack of clarity surrounding who should take provide that leadership and what principles should have been paramount.
The SFA were as tied to the commercial impact of Rangers demise as the SPL and indeed had to be reminded by the supporters of the importance of that sporting integrity. In the aftermath of the Rangers implosion, both the SFA and Leagues on the face of it appear still too commercially oriented to act in a way that balances commercialism and sporting principles.
We have attempted to address this in the resolution below. It also contains additional points raised already on TSFM and elsewhere. It is designed to assist in the widening of accountability in the sport.
We are not wed to the draft or the language. It is there to be revised but we hope it contains enough food for thought to be acceptable to the supporters groups and the clubs.
As recently as today, the SFA has published a Fans Charter. We welcome this development, and although it does not address our specific concerns with respect to governance it is a step in the right direction (http://www.fanscharter.com/).
Some of the principles published are;
- Challenge is to make a National Fans Charter known, accepted and influential
- Getting fan involvement in drafting charter important to acceptance, influence and growing awareness.
We think our resolution is an even bigger step in the direction of those principles.
DRAFT Proposal for Representative Supporter Groups e.g. Trusts or Associations to send to their club to convey to the SFA/SPL/SFL Boards.
We [Insert Association/Trust name here] and in association with fans’ groups of other clubs, ask [Insert Club name here] to convey the following to the Scottish Football Association, SPL and SFL on our behalf.
1 We believe that the commercial viability of Scottish football at the professional level depends absolutely on the belief by supporters that sporting integrity is at the heart of all competition, and that those governing them and the rules by which they exercise governance, must hold sporting integrity as paramount above ALL other concerns. This belief can be summed up in the one word “trust” Without trust in those responsible for governing Scottish Football, commercial viability will suffer, to eventual ruin of our game.
2 There is a perception (accompanied by some dismay and anger) among football supporters throughout Scotland that those who were charged with upholding the rules of the SFA and SPL/SFL, only did so partially – and even then only because of the threat of supporter action if they did not.
3 There appears to be no distinction or order of hierarchy between those governing the game (the SFA) for whom we believe preservation of sporting integrity should be the prime purpose, and the leagues (SPL/SFL) for whom commercial aspects are (understandably) uppermost. As a result sporting integrity lost its primacy and it was left to supporters to insist on it.
4 Consequently many Scottish football supporters have lost confidence that the Scottish Football Association will fulfil their purpose of safeguarding the sport. Indeed their silence following the revelation of a 5 way agreement last summer on the future of the liquidated Glasgow Rangers has exacerbated this loss of confidence in the SFA’s ability to administer professional football in Scotland in a manner that reflects their duty of care to all aspects of the game and everyone who takes part in it.
5 Decisions and deals have been taken by the SFA, SPL, and SFL without any public scrutiny. The operations and decisions of those bodies lack transparency and they are not accountable in any recognisable form to the football supporters throughout the land, without whom there is no professional association.
6 In our view this loss of trust can only begin to be restored by the SFA publically committing itself to:
(i) The production of an unequivocal “mission” statement of purpose/intent which will state (in whatever form they may exist) that maintaining sporting integrity is and will always be their prime goal. The statement will also describe how they intend to ensure this principle is followed in their interactions with Leagues and Clubs, particularly when commercial decisions that might undermine sporting integrity are implemented by the Leagues. (e.g. In the case of TV contracts, sponsorship or any significant league reconstruction).
(ii) Further: in recognition of the inability of some individuals to provide leadership during the past year simply because of conflicts of interest, take steps to remove any such conflict, and in doing so enable the organisation and its office bearers to function unhindered.
(iii) In the interests of transparency, publish the “five point agreement” that allowed The Rangers entry into SFL and SFA, provide a supporting rationale for entering into the agreement, and confirm that the terms have been or are being complied with.
Along with other trust restoring measures (see attached Annex) these steps should mark the end of the continuing lack of trust in the authorities.
7. We appreciate that it may be the start of next season before there is any visible evidence of our concerns being addressed although the statement of purpose/intent by the SFA (i) and action at (ii) can be readily put in place – would be a welcome early development.
8. All club’s supporters groups will be watching closely for signs of progress before advising our members and our other supporters if we feel the necessary trust restoring steps are being taken and advise that they can purchase their season books for 2013/14 knowing that sporting integrity is once more absolutely paramount in Scottish football to the betterment of our game.
Signed __________________________ on behalf of
[Insert supporter trust/association name here]
Date ______________
Annex to resolution.
The following is a list of other measures that the SFA should take in order to satisfy supporters that they should be entrusted with the job of governing Scottish football.
- To increase transparency and accountability in a meaningful way – possibly via creation of an active supporter’s liaison group drawn from representative supporter groups of each club. Its remit, using an agreed consultative mechanism to generate dialogue, to hear supporters’ concerns and consider them before key decisions are made. In an industry that is totally interdependent it is folly to exclude a major stakeholder from key decision making.
- A tightening of and an annual and independent audit of the process for granting UEFA Club (FFP) and National Club licensing reporting to the representative supporter liaison group as well as other SFA members to ensure all clubs are living within their means.
- Introduction of a rule requiring all Scottish football club directors to declare any financial interest/shareholding in any club other than their own and to rule that disposition of those shares/interest should be a part of a fit and proper assessment of a person’s qualification to hold office at an association club.
- A feasibility review of Scottish refereeing to assess the potential for creating a professional service that the SFA provide to the leagues by recruiting and training referees, but where the leagues monitor and reward consistently good performances to an agreed standard. Given the sums dependent on referee decisions, the current system must change for everyone’s sake including the referees.
- A full explanation about the circumstances (including dates) surrounding the award of a UEFA Club licence to Rangers in spring/summer of 2011 when there was unpaid social tax that prime facie did not meet the conditions for deeming the granting of a licence acceptable under the UEFA FFP rules on unpaid tax (the wee tax bill).
The [Insert Club Name here] Trust/Supporters Association asks [Insert Club Name here] to convey our concerns above with their provenance to the appropriate authorities as they see fit viz:
- Football Authority in Scotland (The SFA)
- Europe (UEFA)
- Scottish Government (on the issue of accountability to supporters and proper checks and balance governance.)
beatipacificisscotia
Do you think for a minute league reconstruction would even be on the agenda if Sevco 2012 had been alegally placed in the SPL or DIV 3 .So forgive me if I am against any proposal that sees them moved through the leagues quicker than ANY other new club .
I agree with you totally that no action at all should be taken against Sevco 2012 ,they did not commit the offence .
What makes you think I am accusing a club off corruption when being against any reconstruction that sees any club moving up the leagues
IMO Sevco 2012 do not have an eccentric CEO they have a dangerous one ,who will take what he wants and leave the rest of us to clear the toxic mess he leaves behind .
I am also for reconstruction for the good of our game but I do not think it should be rushed through and should be done in conjunction with fan consultation as to what would get them and any lost fans more interested in attending every week .The fans are the life blood of our game ,always have been and always will be ,we seem to have forgotten that somewhere down the line and the fans are the last one’s thought of now
Henry Clarson! you have NO idea how much they knew!
jonnyod says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 20:53
I appreciate your made the distinction between the two clubs. I directed my last post to Henry Clarson who seemed to suggest that old Rangers crimes related to current league reconstruction debates.
Lets be honest, Scottish football is in trouble because one of their biggest sellable assets and income generators does not play in the top division. Regardless of the old club / new club debate, you cannot deny the size of Rangers, the size of their support, and their wider draw for sponsors and television. What can Scottish football authorities do to safeguard the future of the game at a time when it is in trouble? Radical league transformation. I believe they have come up with something that will help everyone. Rangers are a new and ambitious team with excellent facilities and a large potential fan base. If the new proposals were sold to the fans as a wonderful opportunity to climb through a vibrant and exciting league structure, we could all move forward together.
I’m sick of the childish nonsense. Rangers see the world as full of “enemies”. The anti-Rangers look to Ibrox and see “dangerous” and “toxic”.
Give it a rest, it’s a game of football.
jonnyod says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 20:53
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they knew 24+ months ago!
it would seem obvious that managers would know what their players are paid. It would be a reasonable assumption that when players with EBTs wanted a payrise, managers would help negotiate.
what would be a fitting punishment for management and other staff involved in EBTs if found guilty, a five year ban ?
jonnyod says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 20:53
One thing that you mentioned that I cannot agree with – consulting the fans. If you ask 10 fans for their opinions you will get 10 different answers. You bundle those together and create a solution from them you will have some horrible, middle-of-the-road compromise that suits no-one and doesn’t work.
You may not be aware, Steve Jobs (RIP) or Apple refused to do focus groups and believed people didn’t know what they wanted until they seen it. He refused to subject his devices to the scrutiny of the general public until he was ready – until he had made the very best products he could. No compromises to dilute his vision, no middle of the road products. Apple products were radical and innovative. They still are.
We don’t have anyone with the vision of Steve Jobs in the SFA. However, we need radical and innovative. I believe the current proposals could be exactly that.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 21:26
________________________________________________________ _I’m sick of the childish nonsense. Rangers see the world as full of “enemies”. The anti-Rangers look to Ibrox and see “dangerous” and “toxic”.
Give it a rest, it’s a game of football.
____________________________________________________________________________If you think that is so I can’t imagine you’re from the West of Scotland or surrounding towns or villages.
Maybe you should actually investigate the number of fatalities and people scarred for life, not including the usual little kicks about the head, people beaten with weapons etc. Always significantly higher when Rangers were beaten in a game against Celtic.
Should we need remind you of the death threats and bombs sent to NL and prominent Celtic fans in Scotland?
“Give it a rest it’s a game of football”
Well go and have a look at some of the militant Rangers media websites ran by their fans and let’s see who think it’s only a game.
Your level of ignorance is unbelievable .
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 21:39
…
We don’t have anyone with the vision of Steve Jobs in the SFA…
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Glad to see it’s not just me who likes to state the bleedin’ obvious… 🙂
‘Steve Jobs’ and ‘SFA’ in the same sentence ? Shouldn’t be allowed.
justshatered says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 20:16
‘The Rangers’ had to agree to pay all footballing debt as part of obtaining their licence to play football. If there is a fine levied by LNS is this classed as a footballing debt?
If titles are stripped do members clubs have a case for legal action to recover lost footballing prize money such as Euro participation cash?
Will ‘The Rangers’ have to hand back prize money as this becomes a footballing debt and it was money illegally obtained?
With regards to AT’s recent blog it is not like the SPL or the SFA leave a company or a group of people hanging in the wind unbacked, unsupported, andposition unclarified while doing their work.
They may be pants at running our game but you have to hand it to them they are world beaters at covering their rear ends.
Having said all that the clubs themselves MUST be happy because not one of them is saying anything with regards to the current ruining, sorry running, of our sport.
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good point.
it occured to me, that the rangers debenture holders were left hi & dry when they ceased to exist, however, what if a debenture holder “applied” to sevco to honour the debenture (as the debentures cost a lot of money)…would the debenture not constitute a “football debt” too?
hmmmmm
think about it sevconians !
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 20:29
Henry Clarson says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 17:52
I stick by my original assertion, this board is anti-Rangers. It is a shame that people will hide behind other arguements.
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It can be a bit Anti Rangers at times I agree with that and I’m not OF minded.
However, I have to say that the latest rubbish to come from Rangers fans about boycotting various teams who voted them out of the SPL is yet more WATP Anti football rubbish. If youse keep trying to destabilise and corrupt the Scottish Football like this I can see the day when you get banned Sine Die..
smartbhoy says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 21:43
I’m not from the West of Scotland originally though have lived here for some time. I was shocked at how backward and entrenched the secrarian hatred is in this part of our country. The views are entrenched on both sides, and I agree factions of the Rangers support have a bigger problem. I do not for one second belittle the pain and loss people have suffered, on both sides.
That said, I am not talking about the social and sub-cultural difficulties of (primarily) the West of Scotland. I am talking about plans effecting the future of Scottish football, football governance, and football commercialisation. Which, funnily enough, is just about a game of football.
There is life outside the sectarian divide, honest there is.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 21:26
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I have never once said this and I agree that sometimes people are branded a troll if not conforming to others opinions but…. I cannot take you seriously if you continue (as a Celtic fan) to make statements like “Rangers are a new and ambitious team with excellent facilities and a large potential fan base” as if they have never been around and just appeared from nowhere, or to state that the CEO of the company is nothing more than a little eccentric.
Sorry but as I have stated before, I would have loved to see a new Rangers, unfortunately all I see is a new CEO (much in the same vain as previous) with the same fans, same culture and using the “game of football” as a tool to vent anger based on some disillusional birth right to look down on others they see as lower down the evolutional development scale.
Just as a previous poster stated, you obviously have never experienced the hatred.
No, this is not just a game, it should be though!
And for the record, I am in favour of reconstruction, a 16 team league to start with.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 21:39use that
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Your position seems to be that we should get back to “business as usual”, i.e TRFC in the top flight no matter what, simply because that is what will bring the greatest economic advantage. That is a utilitarian argument, and a very popular one amongst the business classes, who can and do justify just about anything on similar grounds.
Personally, I believe that there is much more to life than money. I have seen “business as usual” at work in Scottish football, and I didn’t like what I saw. Going back to that will really kill off Scottish football. I don’t care if Scottish football loses all the money that TRFC and its fans bring to the game, although from memory that worked out at a negative figure last time round. I prefer a poorer, but honest and straight, game, to a rich, bent and corrupt game. And maybe the poorer game will at least be solvent.
I have said before, that if Scottish football moves to a US style franchise system, where chosen teams play each other in a Mickey Mouse money machine set up, where nobody from the “elite” can get relegated, then that’s fine, but I will certainly do walking away. And if I walk away on my own, that’s fine by me too. I hope all the worshippers of mammon enjoy their Disneyland ride. I will treasure my memories of winter saturdays long ago at Stirling, Shawfield, Arbroath, Methil or wherever, watching real teams and real players in a real league. I will just feel sorry for the young, condemned to watch a corrupt game in the name of utilitarianism. It is really, really sad.
madbhoy24941 says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 22:11
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Just as a previous poster stated, you obviously have never experienced the hatred.
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From both sides of the OF I have.
It’s not a matter of Whitaboot who is the worser. It’s now about how the SPL/SFA deal with the Oldco (stripped titles) and how we move on from there. I’m not convinced that will be easy.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 22:11(Edit)
I’m not from the West of Scotland originally though have lived here for some time. I was shocked at how backward and entrenched the secrarian hatred is in this part of our country. The views are entrenched on both sides, and I agree factions of the Rangers support have a bigger problem. I do not for one second belittle the pain and loss people have suffered, on both sides.
That said, I am not talking about the social and sub-cultural difficulties of (primarily) the West of Scotland. I am talking about plans effecting the future of Scottish football, football governance, and football commercialisation. Which, funnily enough, is just about a game of football.
There is life outside the sectarian divide, honest there is.
_________________________________________________________________________
I think most of us are aware of that, and I agree that some kind of pragmatic solution will ultimately have to be found for the game, but it seems a bit of a stretch to accuse this blog of being anti-Rangers on the basis of a few TDs.
There are anti-Rangers sentiments expressed from time to time (by people I would consider to be anti-Rangers) on these pages, but to argue that this is the consensus position is not helpful – and it is totally wrong.
Does anybody actually look at TD’s or TUs after they post? They mean very little, and to infer anything from it is mistaken. Watch for the arguments, not the TUs.
The consensus on here has been long established. TSFM is anti-corruption. If any other club were involved in the tax evasion/avoidance/non-payment schemes that Rangers have been involved in, the same scrutiny and hunger for justice would be in place here.
The problems that people have with many – but not all – Rangers fans, is the refusal to accept that wrongdoing occurred and the subsequent absence of remorse.
There is indeed life outside the sectarian divide, but if you refuse to look any further than the surface, then that is all you will find.
StevieBC says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 21:57
‘Steve Jobs’ and ‘SFA’ in the same sentence ? Shouldn’t be allowed.
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It was a bet, they said it couldn’t be done!
The hypothetical has been suggested by others – how would newco fans deal with a replay following a draw with Dundee Utd, what effect would this have on the ‘moral’ behind the boycott. Then I thought – imagine sevco had been drawn at their alleged home for this tie.Imagine; The Rangers FC v Dundee Utd, tie to be played at…where? Ibrox Stadium?…why? Pressumably, they would settle the doubt behind this one very quickly, but, would the boycott issue have been raised at all? Would Dundee Utd have walked away with yet another IOU. These thoughts reminded me that this is who we talk about in one breath and RM posters talk about in another – why? Why are Rangers, The Rangers, Sevco, so evocative – might it actually be true that we are all jealous and obsessed? Or is it just he case that we give a fu*k? and wish that we didn’t have such a lump of puss in our midst? What is the nub of this issue??
madbhoy24941 says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 22:11
You are right, it should be just about football. I’m not foolish enough to think that football is not a rallying point for some distasteful and dangerous types. The fact is that most clubs manage to exist and co-exist without these issues. The problems are society problems, not football problems. If you believe the solution to “Scotland’s shame” is to wipe Rangers off the face of the map, I can tell you this – it won’t happen, and it wouldn’t work if it did. If anything, it would probably make things worse.
neepheid says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 22:27
I’ve been suggesting radical change for the benefit of all of Scottish football. I have suggested demonstrating a path to the top, but only if it can be earned. If Rangers, or any other team for that matter, are incapable of winning promotion or avoiding relegation, that’s the way it is and nothing should be done to alter the refreshing of leagues and free-flow of teams moving up and down the new structure.
I have no idea where you got “business as usual” from anything I’ve posted today.
Big Pink says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 22:36
Yes, I’m with you on the frustrations of listening to Rangers fans nonsense – “did nothing wrong” this, and “found innocent” that. “Already punished enough” is another favourite. Old Rangers robbed Scottish football of a generation of young Scottish talent with a foreign-player bank-debt tax-free fueled arms race that was reckless and unsustainable. A bit of contrition would be nice to hear.
That club is now consigned to the history books. UEFA will soon put the old club / new club debate to bed forever. I believe the new club will be forced to wash its hands of the past. When they do, can we all move on and just focus on football?
I like Scottish people who put Scotland ahead of Irish or British. I see those that do not as anti Scottish, just people stuck in a past long gone.
We have too many Neanderthals that are given airtime to state their views that are not welcome in this modern Scotland.
Henry Clarson says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 17:52
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 17:21
The number of thumbs down I got for suggesting something that might help Rangers just shows how anti-Rangers this board is.
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My impression of this board is that it is anti-corruption.
It so happens that a great deal of evidence has been gathered that one particular Scottish football club has played an enormous part in corrupting Scottish football. Nobody who is anti-corruption would want to see that club benefit from the havoc which it has caused, especially when that club still refuses to give the slightest indication that it recognises its culpability or feels any remorse.
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They will have been given the opportunity to exculpate themselves. Do you think they will have grasped it? If they do, could we all move on? I think we could.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 20:29
21 17 Rate This
… That’s the old Rangers. Anyone still confused about that?
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Great question, to which Kenneth Williams would probably have replied, ‘ I should cocoa!’ 😀
To be honest, I reckon the only confusion regarding old Rangers emmanates from Ibrox. If fans of a team like Airdrie can man up and accept that their club was liquidated and now carries on via a new Airdrie why can’t followers of old Rangers? It’s not the end of the world. It’s a chance for a new start. Unlike Airdrieonians TRFC maintain their address, badge, and almost identical name, thus far. That in itself is outrageous, given the circumstances. So, if I were Green, I’d be seen to eat a small portion of humble pie and quietly laugh my way to the bank. The oldco/newco debate is actually a non-topic here because nobody is in any doubt about what liquidation means. I’ve never believed it was anti-Rangers to face facts. Problem is, Green has got every man and his dog insisting it’s the same club! He’s ‘avin a giraffe mate.
Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia) says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 13:09
Tony Mowbray signed Danny Fox. Strachan had no involvement whatsoever.
Better go back and update your taxi driver
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You’re right i’m getting my wires crossed somewhere. I remember talking about Fox on a Celtic forum a few years ago and a poster had brought it to my attention that there was a mole and that it was likely DF since he left 6 months after he signed. Obviously the situation wasn’t the WGS/McGeady bust up, no idea what it was now.
Thanks for the correction tho CP, i’m away to lock myself in a cupboard and feel sorry for myself now 🙂
we all know with the TRFC shenanigans surrounding the Dundee United game that the game must pose some risks. I fully expect the SFA , SPL and the authorities to make sure that is not the case.
chipsandblog says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 23:24
We have too many Neanderthals that are given airtime to state their views that are not welcome in this modern Scotland.
your call isn’t on anymore.
Don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet but tonight was the second night running where Sevco fans calling in to SSB were actually challenged on some of their views. By none other than Hugh Keevins too! Even Gordon Dalziel’s pathetic and unwaivering support of the new club was tolerable just to listen to some of the hillarious attemps at justification by the Sevconians phoning in. I kid you not.
beatipacificiscotia
Sorry but maybe I didn’t make my point very clear regards fan consultation .
I am not saying that the powers that be listen to every section of fans idea for the structure of the leagues ,as we the fans are not privy to all the commercial deals and needs to support a professional football league structure .Though in the same veign and my point is that the powers that be should not think they know what it takes to keep the real football fans coming to the games .
They need to do more to find out why they have lost so many fans from our game and act positively to address the decline ,all I see from them is that they think messing about with the set up of the leagues will be enough to get fans back to the game.(or maybe the fans needs is just a smokescreen ).
They should firstly establish how many supporters clubs of all teams exist in our game ,meet with them and find out how they can help them attract more fans to join up .
If it costs a club with 30 members £170 to run a bus to an away ground tell them if they fill the bus the league will meet the cost of the bus and give them a discount on the price of their tickets .
I go to CP and see a section set aside for away supporters that could hold say 2000 fans ,yet there is only 200 in it ,the section is there ,the empty seats are there so why not allow away kids in for free and this could be done at most grounds .The only fans that could be left out is possibly Celtic for away ground but there is enough seats at CP for Celtic to offer the equivalent amount of free tickets to kids at home games .
IMO affordability and Saturday kick offs are maybe the 2 biggest issues for the fans and these should be addressed in tandem with reconstruction .
Martin Hutchinson
I heard SSB and thought the exact same .Two Sevco fans called in and for the first time HK actually asked them why the believed they had been victimised and the were both lost for words .
A definite change of tact from SSB ,if only they had asked the Sevco fans sooner
jonnyod says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 20:53
Your proposition that Club X (no matter who they be) simply be allowed to absolve themselves of the consequences of their own actions, no matter how serious or unjust on creditors, partner clubs, and society at large on the basis that, “one of the biggest sellable assets and income generators does not play in the top division.” would require that legal, social and regulatory compliance be applied entirely on the basis of a clubs ability to generate income as opposed to an equitable and just basis.
If that is the ethos that is allowed to hold then the game is in much greater danger than first envisaged.
Without, at the very least the appearance of, fairness across the board the fans will continue to leave the game in droves and the much prophesied armageddon will be here all the quicker.
Further still, if, as you maintain, Scottish football is so very much dependant upon the continuance of the draw of the “biggest sellable asset”, it begs the question why have attendances continued to fall over the preceding decades and not simply since the fall and re-incarnation of said asset.
We either have clubs regulated on a fair and level basis or we don’t have a game at all.
bunion
Sorry I think you have me mixed up with someone else
Apologies jonnyod.
My post was in response to;
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 21:26
beatipacificiscotia …. Question
For a team to join the sfl/spl they must produce 3 years accounts … Agreed ?
When was the last time oldco/newco produced any accounts ?
Answer … Oldco 2010 … Newco n/a
They shouldn’t even be where they are ….
Agreed ?
Simples really eh ?
Re beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 23:20
Why the haste to fast track TRFC ? Why not keep the status quo until TRFC achieve spl status
via promotions.
Let’s plan reconstruction for the good of Scottish fitba when TRFC would/could be in spl on
merit….. And not before… What we talking about, 3 years ?
onthebaw … I see your point, but wonder how sensible your post would sound if you substituted “Peterhead” or “Elgin” for “TRFC”?
Personally, I think TRFC are currently surviving on bluster. They are not nearly as healthy as their propaganda would have you believe – they can’t possibly be. They need the World Records, the making friends, the siege mentality.
If they ever make it back to the top league, it will be a triumph of deceit, sleight of hand and shouting louder – with the main victims being their own fanbase from whom they extract the finances required to walk the tightrope.
This is why, IMHO, Mr Green cannot afford for his fanbase to receive and believe any negative message.
There has been some comments of the “anti-rangers” sentiments on this blog,I will be honest enough to admit that I fall into that category. The demise of the RFC(admin/liquidation) should have been the chance for new owners to clean house with the shameful past of this club,a chance to admit the cheating and bullying of Scottish football but all we get is no apology,no regret and the same old supremicist culture that blighted the club then and now. If on the otherhand if honesty and integrity was shown by the new club(because make NO mistake that is what it is) I would have rejoiced and called for a leg-up for this new club for the benefit of the whole game in Scotland and help shape a game in this wee country that we can be proud of,its a once in a 140 year oppurtunity wasted with the football authorities and media letting the country down and only the fans of truth and justice taking other than a view based on the false premis that any rfc is better than no rfc……………………..I beg to differ.
whisperer18 says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 05:57
Rangers exist, they play in the 3rd division. I’m sorry that reality upsets you. You clearly wish that they didn’t exist, in any league. If you are unhappy with the decision of the 20-odd clubs to allow Rangers into the SFL and to the SFA for encouraging / ratifying this, take it up with them.
Should Rangers be in the 3rd division? My reading of the rules says they shouldn’t. Does a club need 3yrs audited accounts to gain entry to the league. Look at the 3rd division league table. There is a club at the top of that league who do not have 3yrs audited account. Should they produce 3yrs audited accounts, according to the rules? Yes. But “must” they? Clearly not, if the members want them in.
Simples really eh?
onthebaw says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 07:47
I suggested at no point that we should fast-track Rangers rise to the top league. If people actually read my original post yesterday lunchtime you will see I suggested no such thing, and am suggesting no such thing. I don’t believe it could happen, there would be open revolution if it was even tentatively suggested by the powers that be.
My whole point is that the league reconstruction, with the 12-12-18 mechanisms I suggested, could be good for everyone. 3 down from the bottom 12, and 2 up and a 4 team play-off from the 18 to make up the 3 promoted teams – that’s my suggestion. I like the shape of it. I think it will create talking points throughout the leagues that will keep fans interested for the whole season. I am excited about this idea becoming reality. Instead of comments on the league mechanism suggested, which was may point and on a subject that really matters, people jump on the Rangers thing.
I said that this league format could be sold to the Rangers fans and Rangers sympathisers as a good thing for Rangers. There are people in position of influence who are pro-Rangers. Using their motivations to achieve something good for the WHOLE game in scotland makes sense to me. It is all about how you sell it.
To answer your question, I’d stick with the status quo happily. Scottish football is not so broken that it can’t function as it is. The solution has to be the right one.
Its incredible to see some people still extolling the desire to see Rangers leapfrogged to the top table for the “benefit” of the game. I think its far too overplayed just what commercial impact a large team like this has on the other teams finances and very little serious evidence is presented to back up this assumption. Many teams would see much better crowds in a more competitive league – we are not going to get that by recreating the nonsense of the last 10 years or so of the SPL Era where promoting the big teams has been the only focus of the league.
It is frankly embarrassing hearing Rangers fans talk about “punishing” Dundee Utd by making sure they can’t “milk the cash cow” that they believe Rangers is for all the other clubs. What a load of twaddle they speak as usual. As if having a couple of thousand extra fans twice a season is what’s keeping these clubs going. Quite the opposite really as the biggest income for all these clubs is their own fans not anyone else’s. So in effect what is keeping the smaller clubs back is being stifled by a league which had 2 very much bigger and stronger supported teams.
Some clubs just appeal to the masses more and are better supported – this gives them a commercial advantage through gates and merchandising and that’s ideally converted to advantages on the pitch – this in turn boosts the popularity and so on. For the other clubs that’s just the reality of sporting and commercial life and there is nothing they can do to change that.
Instead these smaller clubs quietly try to go about their own business behaving in the most part with dignity. And what do they get from Rangers in return for making up this modest but important, in fact essential, supporting cast? Vile threats, slurs on their character and decades or more of cheating from the most privileged of clubs.
For the Scottish Game to have ANY sort of medium to long term future we have to accept that the bigger clubs have advantages which they have earned but also realise we have for too long we have allowed them to add extra levers and advantages to their already overwhelming commercial firepower. That will not be achieved by leapfrogging a new club up the leagues, they most earn their place on merit the same as the rest of us.
IMO the current SPL gave an accumulation of small advantages to the top two teams and that pretty quickly killed the whole league as a proper competition. Those advantages were not needed by Rangers or Celtic to maintain their place at the top of the Scottish game but they were the extra push needed to forever push them so far ahead of the rest no one ever had a chance to catch them even for a season.
1. Televised games were almost never broadcast Ibrox or Celtic Park and yet we saw either Rangers or Celtic games live nearly every weekend. So they benefited from the exposure and the TV money but they never lost out on the inevitable loss of gate reciepts. Ever clubs had to bear that burden week after week. (a simple solution is to pay a compensation fee out of the TV deal to each club that hosts a live match OR to set rules on how teams share that financial burden)
2. Far too big a portion of the Prize money went to the top two league finishers each season. The gap from 2 to 3 was far too big. Over the course of the years this failure to share the income more equitably just widened and widened a gap that was alrady big enough. (simply resolved by a more even distribution with each “step” down being an equal drop – much as the EPL does).
3. Lastly the big one for me was that such a small league necessitates clubs playing each other 4 times a year. This has a compounding effect on the gap between the top and the rest. If we take the example of ICT they might be expected to pull off a victory against Rangers or Celtic once in a while but twice or more in one year? The bigger teams have more games to beat home there advantage if they play every club 4 times. In any league where teams only play each other twice a year this gap will be much smaller between the top sides and the chasing a pack – in a good year the a team from chasing pack might take it to the wire to break into the top places. (of course what I’m suggesting here is a bigger league, say 20 teams becomes instantly more competitive at the top end than a league of 10 or 12 playing 4 times a year where big teams can effectively double their advantage).
And yet no one seems to be interested in tackling these sorts of small problems which are holding our game back.
Instead its back to commercial interests before sporting interests which got us the disasterous SPL in the first place. And how did that work out for us all?
Well while the media and perhaps many Old Firm fans were lapping up the repeated 2 way title races year on year did anyone stop to think what the rest of us were doing? I’d suggest in many cases the rest of us were quietly walking away from our clubs and our national game, what was the point anymore?
While the big debate goes on about the league sizes it seems to be forever missed that the “devil is in the detail” with any such proposal.
Tommy says: Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 03:12
Beatipacificiscotia’s sudden appeareance on TSFM and his flurry of posts this evening suggests there is more to him than being a mere Celtic supporter who is eager to claim the voice of reason for the good of Scottish football. His desire to have the Ibrox team in the top tier with indecent haste for the prosperity of the game, regardless of past sins, makes me wonder if he is a Media House plant.
Expect the RIFC PR machine to be cranked up somewhat this month. Green and his cohorts are facing the imminent result of the Lord Nimmo Smith enquiry, the unfavourable leagues reconstruction vote and the possible disclosure of the true figure in the recent share issue. It won’t surprise me if there is an upsurge in letters, callers and bloggers all screaming to give Sevco a break.
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[]
That might be a shade unfair but I’m always a bit wary of people, professing to be Celtic supporters, who try just a wee bit too hard to show that they disapprove of strong criticism of Rangers, even when criticism is entirely valid. But that may just be a consequence of their conditioning and of exposure to a prevailing consensus which they passively absorbed because they never had any impetus to critically evaluate it.
I certainly know some Celtic supporters who somewhat mindlessly regurgitate similar guff in the misguided belief that it makes them appear more reasonable than fellow supporters who are not so readily inclined to concede ground on particular issues which they have considered carefully and about which they feel strongly. If the former group elect to take a position that opposition to corruption in Scottish football indicates an anti-Rangers agenda, it’s because they have chosen to take that position rather than because they have arrived there through careful assessment of all the evidence and rigorous analysis of the arguments. Such people are really not worth taking seriously (although SSB will always be glad to hear from them.)
It’s also possible that they don’t really care much about deeper matters anyway. Perhaps they prefer to stick their heads in the sand and delude themselves that by endlessly repeating, “It’s only a game,” they will be entitled to turn a blind eye to values which are of fundamental importance to society as a whole, never mind football. Seeing these matters within the context of a bigger is far too difficult for them and potentially too inconvenient. It would require an ability to focus beyond ninety minutes of blootering a bladder around a field and give some serious, in-depth thought to more challenging principles of morality, justice and fairness as it applies to the business of professional football. Then they’d need to contemplate the best way to create a climate in which these principles can be consistently upheld throughout the entire industry. They’d also have to think deeply about deterrents and penalties which are required to punish crooks and cynics who undermine and corrode these principles, whether through tax evasion, money laundering or some other fraudulent practice.
Parroting, “It’s only a game,” doesn’t cut it for me, nor does “we need to move on,” nor “let’s get back to just talking about football.”
Breaking rules in order to deprive opponents of multi-million pound sums of prize money?
Forget it. It’s only a game.
Intimidating QCs and other professional people who kindly volunteer to give an impartial ruling on disputed matters, free of charge? Carrying this to the point where police protection and extra security is required for the targets of the intimidation?
But so what? It’s only a game.
Threatening other clubs with boycotts to punish them for upholding the rules and expressing the malicious hope that such clubs will suffer dire financial consequences even to the extent of going out of business and depriving innumerable people of their livelihoods?
Never mind. It’s only a game.
If that kind of blinkered attitude prevails then this game’s a bogey. Rangers will have played a massive part in its downfall. Yet the irony is that the killer blow may well be delivered by people who are too spineless to recognise a corrupting influence for fear of being seen as anti-Rangers, people who never cease searching for increasingly deluded reasons to try to appease the unappeasable and people who automatically assume that when right faces wrong they have to meet halfway.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/raith-chairman-told-sfl-dont-1570279
“Clubs were being told SPL2 was a possibility and if they didn’t support Rangers being moved into the second tier they wouldn’t be invited to join the new set-up. It was said out loud at meetings I attended and I resented that.”
“But they never did charge me with bringing the game into disrepute. Was that because the authorities knew there was truth in what I was saying?”
Henry Clarson says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 09:46
Nice post, you clearly spent a bit of time on it. Shame is it full of backward-looking arguments that are holding Scottish football and Scottish society back.
So you are going to deal with the Rangers fans by perpetuating old arguments and running down the same old Rangers conspiracy rabbit-holes in the hope there is something there? That’ll show them, that’ll cut to the heart of their entrenched and contradictory views on supermacy and catholic conspiracy. I can see clearly how you are going to revolutionise their thought and make the world right again. Hats off to, let me know how that goes.
Do you watch a game of football and think about how corrupt the game is and chew over all those things that upset you about football governance? I don’t. I want to watch 90mins of football with a 15min pie break in the middle. I’ll then talk, usually with my son (occasionally my daughter too), about how good / bad / indifferent the game was. Then we might talk about what game to go to next. I confess to being a Celtic fan, but I prefer to take the kids to lower league games and we dot around the country to different grounds.
Sometimes the football is good, sometimes not. Sometimes the pies are good, sometimes not (or worse, sold out). Sometimes the football AND the pies are good – result! For me, football is time to hang out with the kids and travel about the country seeing different places. I would love to go to the smaller grounds and watch exciting games that really matter every week. League reconstruction may deliver this.
So Henry Clarson, I say it is just a game of football. I say it is a game of two halves. I say it is the beautiful game (sometimes). I say it is a day out for all the family. I say it is a sport, a spectator sport that I enjoy. I think league reconstrution might make the sport I watch, even better to watch. I think trampling over old wounds and prejudices is bad for the soul, bad for the game, and bad for the country.
Am I wrong?
beatipacificiscotia on Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 09:16
My view on your question – should Rangers be in the third division?
In August 2012 I thought yes – it was a tricky solution to a problem. It allowed the fans of the club to continue to see their team play football, while recognising that the club in a financial sense had died and could not continue.
Today – given the lack of digity shown by the club’s new owners, their lack of compassion to the creditors who lost out and the shameful acts of playing to the gallaries I say no. Rangers should not be in the thiird division, or any other.
tibfkaelc says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 09:56
From the article;
“A sense of injustice over what the game’s ruling bodies were planning to do …… last summer”
“he and his family, along with the Fife side, paid for the consequences of Turnbull speaking his mind.”
“There were threats from west Belfast”
“Fife Constabulary insisted on overnight patrols of Stark’s Park after anonymous messages said the ground would be torched.”
““We suffered collateral damage when Ally McCoist demanded to know who the people were on the judiciary panel”
“one of Raith’s directors, was part of the panel and found himself in a situation where he couldn’t even leave his house for security reasons.”
““He was hung out to dry and neither he nor the club received sufficient support from the SFA at that time.”
“Clubs were being told SPL2 was a possibility and if they didn’t support (Club X) being moved into the second tier they wouldn’t be invited to join the new set-up. It was said out loud at meetings”
“But they never did charge me with bringing the game into disrepute. Was that because the authorities knew there was truth in what I was saying?”
Encapsulate the very basis of the corruption at the heart of Scottish Football.
And yet, some wish this corruption and poison to continue unabated?
Long Time Lurker says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:34
I appreciate the naked honest and well-stated point.
I agree, there was an opportunity for the new club to state from the outset that the old club. They didn’t have to admit to being a new club, just that things are going to change. The first act could have been a decree that the old ways and old songbook were no longer welcome. The first signing could have been a RoI player with a good Irish O’something name – make that first 3 signings. Tell the faithful, if you don’t like it don’t come back.
It was an opportunity missed.
why would TRFC want the old rangers history. I can never understand why decent rangers fans want anything to do with a history that would exclude Scottish players because of their upbringing until relatively recently. Green had a chance to build a new club that encompassed all of scotland and as said banned the old song book.
That should have been the agreement – the sixth point in the agreement. They had the ideal opportunity to rid the fan base of the watp group . If their fan base shrank to 20,000 decent people it would have been worth it.
beatipacificiscotia says: Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:22
Am I wrong?
Yes.
“I’m sure the Rangers PR machine will be well oiled and ready for action”
uugh, that mental image has put me off my breakfast.
Henry Clarson says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:58
I appreciate the response. []
I heard somewhere that the best revenge for a divorcee is to live well and be happy. Celtic and Rangers are now divorced. Celtic fans should live well and be happy. So why keep bringing up the past? “You did this” and “you did that” and “you never liked my Mother”, blah blah blah. It is pointless.
Deal with today’s issues today. If there is work to be done to put past wrongs to right, do it. If we can influence how things move forward, do so. Beyond that, let it go.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 23:04
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neepheid says:
Friday, February 1, 2013 at 22:27
I’ve been suggesting radical change for the benefit of all of Scottish football. I have suggested demonstrating a path to the top, but only if it can be earned. If Rangers, or any other team for that matter, are incapable of winning promotion or avoiding relegation, that’s the way it is and nothing should be done to alter the refreshing of leagues and free-flow of teams moving up and down the new structure.
I have no idea where you got “business as usual” from anything I’ve posted today.
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It would appear that correcting someone who completely misses the point of your post deserves a thumbs down. Neepheid’s post was both a well-written and an interesting personal viewpoint. It had no relevance to what I said.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:22
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… I prefer to take the kids to lower league games and we dot around the country to different grounds.
———–
Nice. Although mostly an armchair viewer, I really enjoy seeing the wee teams on telly. I usually read up a wee bit about each club and its history. An unexpected result of the demise of Rangers has been all the Div 3 matches they’ve shown that have revealed the forgotten world of lower-league football. Must say that the SFL has caught my imagination this year. I sometimes wish they’d show a Partick v Morton rather than two SPL teams play out a 0-0 for the fourth time. I don’t know what the opposite of a ‘glory hunter’ is but you sound like one. I have those tendencies myself 🙂
The only way that the Rangers/The Rangers saga will be resolved for the good of Scottish football is if Charles and Co were to come out and confirm their status as either Oldco or Newco…lock, stock and barrel as one or t’other.
They must either stick to being Oldco with all of the history and debt or they move on to Newco with no history or debt. Either is acceptable (with Oldco being the preferred option) but cherry-picking the bits they want from both is doing no-one any favours.
As long as the Ibrox outfit continue to follow this ridiculous hybrid path of confused parentage, they will continue to be hounded and reminded of the embarrasment and shame they have brought upon themselves and Scottish football.
Man-up Rangers fans. Accept that you are either wholly Oldco or wholly Newco and pay your dues accordingly.
bect67 says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 11:39
You got me! Was it the pies that gave it away?
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:22
So Henry Clarson, I say it is just a game of football.
Am I wrong?
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””
Yes.
“Football is not a matter of life and death…it’s much more important than that”- Bill Shankly.
tibfkaelc says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 09:56
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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/raith-chairman-told-sfl-dont-1570279
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What an inspirational interview. In a just world he’d be the chairman with the knighthood. Arise, Sir Turnbull.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:42
That approach, which would have been a game changer would have come at a cost. Any idea how much?
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:22
Asks: ‘Am I wrong?’
——————————————————————————————————————
From your point of view probably not. But having read your justification for your position I conclude that at best you are very short-sighted. You are entitled to view football as just a game and an opportunity to travel Scotland with your kids to sample football, pies and bovril.
However most definitely in the blue corner there is a very different agenda – it has really nothing to do with football which has become, possibly now for the majority of the current Ibrox support, no more than a weapon to be used in a literal fight to the death to preserve a religion and a way of life. I should add that the religion in my experience is not practiced and is just ‘used’ in the same way as football to facilitate the real objective.
If you have any doubts as to what I say then spend some time on the Darkside and view the posting that is being done. I have never ever seen it more bitter and dangerous and it is far removed from the pretty picture you paint of happy days traipsing around Scotland.
The people I talk about discuss football as if it were a battle and also the total destruction of their perceived enemies in the same way. These are not old arguments and prejuduces but very current and very alive and very dangerous to Scottish football and the wider society.
To me you seem so out of touch with reality on the ground that you sound like an ex-pat Scot who has recently returned to his homelaand after a long absence and doesn’t actually have a clue what is happening. Or a PR plant, many of which have been pressed into action on a number of the more ‘thinking’ football forums, to peddle an agenda based on profit.
Like you I also think that: ‘Trampling over old wounds and prejudices is bad for the soul, bad for the game, and bad for the country’. And ever so slowly over the last 20 odd years things have improved and we have seen the growth of a much more multicultural and inclusive Scotland. We were slowly emerging from the Dark Ages.
Last Spring saw Scotland slammed back in time by at least 30 years and when the current circus leaves town then we will need to go back and try to pick-up the pieces. But one thing has become obvious and that is the cancer at the heart of the governance of Scottish football which, if not addressed, could see the destruction of the game to all intents and purposes.
I wish I could relax like you do and that I used to as well and just enjoy a game of football – with or without a pie and Bovril – sadly the last year has jaundiced my whole outlook on the future of the game and I just hope that Rangers get their wish asap and that some League, which doesn’t understand the true psyche of a major element of their support, gives them entry far from Bonnie Scotland.
I started this journey a year ago arguing that Rangers was vital to Scottish football and once it had come up the leagues would again be a major player and I fervently hoped that the decent fans would control the club.
That has failed and the decent fans are in a minority having been replaced by a hate-driven supremacist agenda. An important statistic to come out of Ibrox is that 9,000 Bears didn’t renew their season ticket this season despite prices being slashed. I believe most of these were decent fans who walked away. That is the real tragedy both for Rangers and Scottish Football.
Danish Pastry says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 11:42
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beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:22
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… I prefer to take the kids to lower league games and we dot around the country to different grounds.
———–
Nice. Although mostly an armchair viewer, I really enjoy seeing the wee teams on telly. I usually read up a wee bit about each club and its history. An unexpected result of the demise of Rangers has been all the Div 3 matches they’ve shown that have revealed the forgotten world of lower-league football. Must say that the SFL has caught my imagination this year. I sometimes wish they’d show a Partick v Morton rather than two SPL teams play out a 0-0 for the fourth time. I don’t know what the opposite of a ‘glory hunter’ is but you sound like one. I have those tendencies myself
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My son is 13 and big enough for the big crowds now, but I still prefer the wee grounds. I took my daughter too to the Scotland v Sweden ladies game at Starks Park and she loved it. I’m not saying we have a convert to football, but she doesn’t hate it anymore. I lost interest in Scottish football for many years though have rediscovered it through my kids. Bit of football – a good pie – cheers, tears and snotters – smashing! It is a good day out.
I agree, the spotlight is now on clubs that until recently were just names at the bottom of the coupon. Now the nation wants to see Brechin’s hedge, or visit far-flung outposts such as Annan or Elgin (which I am yet to get to, but maybe one day soon).
When RFC died and newco joined the 3rd div I kinda thought the TRFC sectarian nonsense sprung from a desire to link oldco and newco
However
If anything this type of behaviour is worse now than it was before Whyte arrived
Which makes me wonder if I have the wrong end of the stick
i.e.
Is the an ongoing need in the West of Scotland for some Institution which can channel hatred with minimum civil unrest?
Or put another way
Would there have been an upsurge support for some other Institution if Ibrox had been bought by Tesco?
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 12:03
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beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:42
That approach, which would have been a game changer would have come at a cost. Any idea how much?
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Cost to society? Worth the risk.
Cost in financial terms? Clearly too much to contemplate or we might be there. I would have rolled the dice. In hindsight, it might have worked. I have Rangers friends and family (inlaws obviously) who revel in the fact that the songbook is largely gone and how great the atmosphere is.
It is not too late to try.
ecobhoy says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 12:04
I can see your world view is different from mine and I appreciate your thoughts. I can’t disagree with anything you say (other than the suggestion I might be a “plant”). You are very insightful, and only half right.
I’m from Edinburgh originally and, whilst we have our own mini-sectarian rivalry, the rivalry is largely well-mannered. You can spend a day in an Edinburgh pub with Hearts and Hibs fans and you will get a free-flow of good natured banter. No glasses smashed, no bloody noses, no hatred.
I lived in London for not that many years and lost touch and interest in Scottish football. I lived in a part of London where there was a mix of Arsenal, Tottenham and Hammers fans (the mighty Leyton Orient were actually my local team) and the rivalry was as keen yet as good-natured as I was accustomed to.
I moved to Glasgow to find a world of hate that has no place in the 21st century. I have had the occasional peek at the Rangers boards and, to be honest, they are best left to it. You can’t help or change some people. I am not for one second suggesting burying my head in the sand or pretending it doesn’t exist. If these beliefs lead to criminality, hit that criminality hard. If they cross the line, stamp on them.
It has no relevance to my life. My kids know nothing about it and that’s the way I like it. I believe that it only becomes relevant if you let it. That’s my view and I respect yours.
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 11:49
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The only way that the Rangers/The Rangers saga will be resolved for the good of Scottish football is if Charles and Co were to come out and confirm their status as either Oldco or Newco…lock, stock and barrel as one or t’other.
They must either stick to being Oldco with all of the history and debt or they move on to Newco with no history or debt. Either is acceptable (with Oldco being the preferred option) but cherry-picking the bits they want from both is doing no-one any favours.
As long as the Ibrox outfit continue to follow this ridiculous hybrid path of confused parentage, they will continue to be hounded and reminded of the embarrasment and shame they have brought upon themselves and Scottish football.
Man-up Rangers fans. Accept that you are either wholly Oldco or wholly Newco and pay your dues accordingly.
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Agreed.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 12:51
“You can’t help or change some people.”
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I would agree with that.
How many cup competitions up until today has super ally’s team ( whatever their name is ) been put out of since he took over? 🙂
beatipacificiscotia on Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:42
beatipacificiscotia I do not understand how the second sentence in your post relates to the points raised in my own.
Anyway, all I wanted Rangers to do was to turn up and play football. They have not. The current ownership of the club and what appears to be a large majority of the fan base are playing the power card – I.e. To those who have kicked when we are down – we will seek our revenge on our return.
I am not looking for the club to get down on its knees and beg for mercy. A dignified and honest recognition of what went wrong in the previous management of the club and a sincere apology would have been fine.
stewart regan on the phone-in tonight on bbc radio.
any volunteers to ask for an sfa statement regarding auldco/nuk’o ?
or find out, why the £15m TAX & N.I isn’t getting payed ??
Brenda says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 13:39
How many cup competitions up until today has super ally’s team ( whatever their name is ) been put out of since he took over?
——
Well – adding the one today into the equation – surely it’s approaching a World Record by now? 🙂
When was the last time radio Clyde broadcast a football match …. Live or Otherwise ?
Anyone ?
I remember we used to get a game on Clyde and another one or two on radio Scotland
What will tomorrows headlines be?
Surely not
Sky deal at risk after Arabs taunt viewers with Whyte masks?
Tomorrow’s headline?
The return of Scotland’s Shame.
Meet the newco, same as the oldco. (c. The Who)
Lee McCulloch’s next gem, what gulf?
matt mcglone @MattMcGlone9 1h
The mentality of Ian Black, off the park after his red card.No
shame as he threatens to throw corner flag at away fans
pic.twitter.com/X49pa5aM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The 300-odd must have been giving it to him tight for Black to threaten them with the corner flag!
It turns out that Black threatened the home fans. That’ll be him up in front of the beaks then.
Won’t it?
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 12:51
‘If these beliefs lead to criminality, hit that criminality hard. If they cross the line, stamp on them.’
That is part of the problem. The non-payment of NI and Tax whilest not criminal in the eyes of the law, unfathomable to me as that is, is unjustifiable in the eyes of many.
That this club broke the ethical laws of football last year is beyond question and it still remains to be seen whether they have actually broken the laws of the game itself for almost a decade but did they get ‘stamped on’ as you put it.
The answer is clearly no. They were allowed to continue because of the incestuous nature of the SPL and SFA. Will they be ‘stamped on’ even if LNS hands down a daming verdict. Many here don’t think so. It is this mindset that many of us here are challenging. The mindset that dictates there cannot be anything other than what we have witnessed over the last twenty five years.
For years the media stated it was a shame that every trophy was won by one of the big two with the odd exception and yet this is what they want to drive us back to. There will be no progression within our sport because of this. In Scotland in the 21st century we rolled back the clock on natural evolution in favour of something that no one particularly cared for. Why, because we were scared as a nation to do the unthinkable, to challenge a mindset and adopted phillosophy that has scarred our sport all of my life.
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 17:18
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It turns out that Black threatened the home fans. That’ll be him up in front of the beaks then.
Won’t it?
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I wonder if someone will ask Mr Lunny to have a look at Ian Blacks hand gesture towards Gavin Dunning? Not heard anyone mentioning it yet, now consider if it was……
jimlarkin says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 14:44
7 0 Rate Down
stewart regan on the phone-in tonight on bbc radio.
any volunteers to ask for an sfa statement regarding auldco/nuk’o ?
or find out, why the £15m TAX & N.I isn’t getting payed ??
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he is on now