by Auldheid for the Scottish Football Monitor
On these pages at least there is a mounting lack of trust that the Scottish Football Association can or will govern our game in a fair and honest manner that recognises the principle of sporting integrity as paramount.
This mistrust is equalled only by the frustration at being unable to do anything to change the attitude and action of those at the SFA (and Leagues) responsible for that governance, a frustration compounded by the reluctance of the mainstream media to focus on the very issues of trust and integrity that concern us.
Back in early 2010 Celtic supporters represented by the Celtic Trust, various Association groups and individuals felt the same frustration and found a way to make their voices heard at the SFA – by using their club as a channel of communication to articulate their concerns.
A resolution was agreed and passed to Celtic to convey to the SFA and it was heeded by the club. There is no reason in why a similar conduit cannot be used by supporters groups of all clubs.
The enormity of the task, to get the majority of trusts and associations of all clubs to support this approach and give it sufficient weight, should not be underestimated, but in the interests of amplifying our voice, it is worth the effort.
Based on that 2010 experience, and on the discussion that has taken place on TSFM we have arrived at a (now amended) resolution below under the auspices of TSFM and which has been sent to all representative club supporters groups.
We believe one of the reasons the SFA and SPL were able to mislead (or simply fail to provide leadership) was because of the lack of clarity surrounding who should take provide that leadership and what principles should have been paramount.
The SFA were as tied to the commercial impact of Rangers demise as the SPL and indeed had to be reminded by the supporters of the importance of that sporting integrity. In the aftermath of the Rangers implosion, both the SFA and Leagues on the face of it appear still too commercially oriented to act in a way that balances commercialism and sporting principles.
We have attempted to address this in the resolution below. It also contains additional points raised already on TSFM and elsewhere. It is designed to assist in the widening of accountability in the sport.
We are not wed to the draft or the language. It is there to be revised but we hope it contains enough food for thought to be acceptable to the supporters groups and the clubs.
As recently as today, the SFA has published a Fans Charter. We welcome this development, and although it does not address our specific concerns with respect to governance it is a step in the right direction (http://www.fanscharter.com/).
Some of the principles published are;
- Challenge is to make a National Fans Charter known, accepted and influential
- Getting fan involvement in drafting charter important to acceptance, influence and growing awareness.
We think our resolution is an even bigger step in the direction of those principles.
DRAFT Proposal for Representative Supporter Groups e.g. Trusts or Associations to send to their club to convey to the SFA/SPL/SFL Boards.
We [Insert Association/Trust name here] and in association with fans’ groups of other clubs, ask [Insert Club name here] to convey the following to the Scottish Football Association, SPL and SFL on our behalf.
1 We believe that the commercial viability of Scottish football at the professional level depends absolutely on the belief by supporters that sporting integrity is at the heart of all competition, and that those governing them and the rules by which they exercise governance, must hold sporting integrity as paramount above ALL other concerns. This belief can be summed up in the one word “trust” Without trust in those responsible for governing Scottish Football, commercial viability will suffer, to eventual ruin of our game.
2 There is a perception (accompanied by some dismay and anger) among football supporters throughout Scotland that those who were charged with upholding the rules of the SFA and SPL/SFL, only did so partially – and even then only because of the threat of supporter action if they did not.
3 There appears to be no distinction or order of hierarchy between those governing the game (the SFA) for whom we believe preservation of sporting integrity should be the prime purpose, and the leagues (SPL/SFL) for whom commercial aspects are (understandably) uppermost. As a result sporting integrity lost its primacy and it was left to supporters to insist on it.
4 Consequently many Scottish football supporters have lost confidence that the Scottish Football Association will fulfil their purpose of safeguarding the sport. Indeed their silence following the revelation of a 5 way agreement last summer on the future of the liquidated Glasgow Rangers has exacerbated this loss of confidence in the SFA’s ability to administer professional football in Scotland in a manner that reflects their duty of care to all aspects of the game and everyone who takes part in it.
5 Decisions and deals have been taken by the SFA, SPL, and SFL without any public scrutiny. The operations and decisions of those bodies lack transparency and they are not accountable in any recognisable form to the football supporters throughout the land, without whom there is no professional association.
6 In our view this loss of trust can only begin to be restored by the SFA publically committing itself to:
(i) The production of an unequivocal “mission” statement of purpose/intent which will state (in whatever form they may exist) that maintaining sporting integrity is and will always be their prime goal. The statement will also describe how they intend to ensure this principle is followed in their interactions with Leagues and Clubs, particularly when commercial decisions that might undermine sporting integrity are implemented by the Leagues. (e.g. In the case of TV contracts, sponsorship or any significant league reconstruction).
(ii) Further: in recognition of the inability of some individuals to provide leadership during the past year simply because of conflicts of interest, take steps to remove any such conflict, and in doing so enable the organisation and its office bearers to function unhindered.
(iii) In the interests of transparency, publish the “five point agreement” that allowed The Rangers entry into SFL and SFA, provide a supporting rationale for entering into the agreement, and confirm that the terms have been or are being complied with.
Along with other trust restoring measures (see attached Annex) these steps should mark the end of the continuing lack of trust in the authorities.
7. We appreciate that it may be the start of next season before there is any visible evidence of our concerns being addressed although the statement of purpose/intent by the SFA (i) and action at (ii) can be readily put in place – would be a welcome early development.
8. All club’s supporters groups will be watching closely for signs of progress before advising our members and our other supporters if we feel the necessary trust restoring steps are being taken and advise that they can purchase their season books for 2013/14 knowing that sporting integrity is once more absolutely paramount in Scottish football to the betterment of our game.
Signed __________________________ on behalf of
[Insert supporter trust/association name here]
Date ______________
Annex to resolution.
The following is a list of other measures that the SFA should take in order to satisfy supporters that they should be entrusted with the job of governing Scottish football.
- To increase transparency and accountability in a meaningful way – possibly via creation of an active supporter’s liaison group drawn from representative supporter groups of each club. Its remit, using an agreed consultative mechanism to generate dialogue, to hear supporters’ concerns and consider them before key decisions are made. In an industry that is totally interdependent it is folly to exclude a major stakeholder from key decision making.
- A tightening of and an annual and independent audit of the process for granting UEFA Club (FFP) and National Club licensing reporting to the representative supporter liaison group as well as other SFA members to ensure all clubs are living within their means.
- Introduction of a rule requiring all Scottish football club directors to declare any financial interest/shareholding in any club other than their own and to rule that disposition of those shares/interest should be a part of a fit and proper assessment of a person’s qualification to hold office at an association club.
- A feasibility review of Scottish refereeing to assess the potential for creating a professional service that the SFA provide to the leagues by recruiting and training referees, but where the leagues monitor and reward consistently good performances to an agreed standard. Given the sums dependent on referee decisions, the current system must change for everyone’s sake including the referees.
- A full explanation about the circumstances (including dates) surrounding the award of a UEFA Club licence to Rangers in spring/summer of 2011 when there was unpaid social tax that prime facie did not meet the conditions for deeming the granting of a licence acceptable under the UEFA FFP rules on unpaid tax (the wee tax bill).
The [Insert Club Name here] Trust/Supporters Association asks [Insert Club Name here] to convey our concerns above with their provenance to the appropriate authorities as they see fit viz:
- Football Authority in Scotland (The SFA)
- Europe (UEFA)
- Scottish Government (on the issue of accountability to supporters and proper checks and balance governance.)
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:22
So, it would appear that we have yet another fair minded, new, heavy poster, claiming to be a Celtic fan, while trying to make all non-Rangers appologists out to be Rangers haters in an “I’m one of you so I must be Mr Reasonable” sort of way. I’ve noticed many new posters on here and RTC, some openly TRFC fans, others claiming not to be, who have come on and posted feverishly, deflecting the blog, then disappearing never to be seen, at least under the same name, again.
I find your stance that we should accept that it is right that TRFC should be granted ‘god speed’ to the top table mereley on the grounds that they bring wealth for the others to feed on, as totally incongruous with the following in your above timed post:
‘For me, football is time to hang out with the kids and travel about the country seeing different places. I would love to go to the smaller grounds and watch exciting games that really matter every week. League reconstruction may deliver this.’
That is much more in keeping with someone like Danish Pastry, a great advocate of the smaller club having as much right as their bigger counterparts to feast at the top table, and totally out of keeping with the mindset you display.
If the majority of posters on here display any sort of ‘haters’ mentality, it is as ‘might is right’ haters, and only want to support their teams in a league not weighted in favour of any one club, let alone a club grown strong on bigotry and supremacist ideals and tainted with cheating, not only in football, but of the country as a whole!
You may be what you suggest, and believe in what you say, but someone who posts the same arguments repeatedly, without introducing anything new (other than his offspring) to strengthen his argument, bears all the hallmarks of a troll. It has been noted on here, and RTC, that, just before major announcements by, or about, Rangers/TRFC, a sudden influx of heavy posting RM type trolls, many actually able to put two sentences together, appear… hmm, I wonder what news lies just around the corner!
NB. Just in case you are, in fact, what you claim to be, but just out of touch with the main thrust of this blog, ie fairplay above money in Scottish football, my appologies if I have offended you 😉
Stuart/Graham
Please ask about the 5 way agreement please.
if they don’t ask him about it, it would be reasonable to think its on the “no go area questions list” along with campbells expensive nightlife.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 12:51
Just to let you know, I gave you a thumbs up for that post as I agree with everything you say. If I’d read it before my previous post I might have hung-fire before posting it 😉
Pau1mart1n
Seems like
Danish Pastry says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 00:02
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I don’t think Charles Green really cared about whether old Rangers and new Rangers were the same thing. In fact he himself said that only a CVA could save the old club and that liquidation would be the end of it. James Traynor, the head of media at the new club said as much as well prior to joining them.
However Charles Green realised that it was important to the fans, and the only way to keep them onside was to start saying it was the same club, and coming away with nonsense about “holding companies”.
Mr Green was being a pragmatic businessman, ensuring he kept his customer base, nothing more. Mr Traynor is being a propagandist, doing his boss’ bidding, nothing more.
i missed the regan “interview”.
was he asked any important questions and if so, was he allowed to either fudge the answer or not answer the question?
Well listening to BBC Sport there Stuart Cosgrove we got the reason why our game is in a mess direct from S Regan.
The SFA have no power over the leagues in terms of their competition which basically means there is no one with overall authority to run or foster the well being of Scottish football.
Unfortuneately Stuart was interrupted before he could develop this any further which is a pity because without an overall guiding authority football is free to do what it can in pursuit of gold including walking all over sporting integrity.
Make no mistake had supporters not made a stand clubs would have consigned the integrity notion into oblivion, taking our game with it.
What to do?
Well the first thing is to focus on the role of the SFA and campaign that they take on powers to allow them to play an integrity protection role.
Unless the leagues start acting with the selflessness of a Mother Theresa the lack of authority will enable more crisis in the future.
Down south we have an FA who appear as powerless to make the EPL act responsibly.
Down south the English government in the form of a Select Committee have threatened legislation if the FA do not make the desired changes happen.
It might be that the Scottish Government needs to get involved to force an accountable regime where there is a body with the necessary powers to look after all of football’s welfare and not just the narrow commercial interests of both SFA and the leagues.
Put it this way, football appears to have no intention of putting its house in order and given the social role it plays and social consequences of it going wrong I cannot see how the Scottish Government can justify emulating the SFA and say they too have no power to interfere.
One ” governing” body with no power to act is bad enough, but two?
Auldheid
You probably did not hear the follow through from down here on the Parliamentary committees statement. It was a very long and sad round of chairmen saying basically we will do as we please. Oh and the government are singularily un interested.
However they are following financial fair lay rules at least at championship level quite seriously.
The eventual outcome of the HMRC vv FTT appeal will interest more down here and probably instigate more change than any committee.
Anyone hear the result earlier?
Ianagain
Cheers. The way to get politicians interested is to make putting football’s house in order a vote winner rather than loser.
The George Galloway early day motion on tax avioidance is another straw on the camels back and I was pleased to see it eventually left the Parliamentary graveyard and got a mention in the Sun. That catches folk’s attention.
Folk only act on what they focus on and sometimes it takes time to attract attention, but a vote seeking MSP up here who tabled a motion calling on the Scottish Govt to ” sort out” the SFA but done in a considered way, would get my vote.
I would also consider unwillingness to get involved as a sign of a government not willing to govern on a matter of real social concern.
allyjambo says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 18:11
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beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 10:22
So, it would appear that we have yet another fair minded, new, heavy poster, claiming to be a Celtic fan, while trying to make all non-Rangers appologists out to be Rangers haters in an “I’m one of you so I must be Mr Reasonable” sort of way.
=================================
I feel it is only fair to point out that beatipacificiscotia’s first post on TRFC dates back to October 21, so he hasn’t just popped up from nowhere. Although I fundamentally disagree with him, I personally find his contributions logical and well argued, provoking a lot of debate on issues that are important and relevant. So let’s make a bit of room on here for a variety of views. It’s going to get very boring very quickly on here If you just have relics like me reminiscing about the 60’s.
And a word to beatipacificiscotia- TD’s usually just mean that people disagree with you. Your views are outside the mainstream of this forum, that’s just how it is. I personally would urge you to carry on making your case. Even although I will go to my grave believing that “Rangers” should currently be playing in the juniors, and that Scottish football would be a far healthier and cleaner “product” if that was the case.
allyjambo says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 18:11
You have every right to give your though based on what you read and I would never be offended by honest thought. I’m not a new poster. I’ve posted many times on RTC and a few times on this site too. Most days I will have a look at the site to see what is new so I’m more of a lurker, occasional contributor. RTC became very anti-Rangers at times though that is to be expected, it does have Rangers in the title. I would have thought this site would have been a slightly different animal. The title would suggest a wider responsiblity and interest.
Funnily enough, I’ve been accused of trolling in the past on this site. Maybe I’m one of those limp liberals and I’ve got it coming. Maybe it is simply because Rangers playing in the 3rd division doesn’t upset me and makes no difference to my life. My personal views on the dark side of Rangers are my own, and the reason why my kids will never visit Ibrox. People are entitled to their own views. However, I can’t do the gnashing of teeth thing and am fed up hearing the constant Rangers hatred dressed up as something else.
I made a genuine post about an idea on league reconstruction that, in my mind, could be the saviour of Scottish football. I did so in the hope that maybe someone would give me their thoughts, maybe even come up with ideas that would improve on my own.
Anyway, there is real news happening with Mr Regan on the radio. There will be post mortem forensic analysis on this site hopefully, which is the reason I visit.
Oh go on then, what’s happening over at RM? Some bears beginning to see a bit of sense in among the nonsense, actually …
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Why are we paying the 2nd highest wage in Scottish football when we are well of the mark. Imo Rangers at this minute are not good enough to be playing in SPL.
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Because we are still the biggest club in the country and we have over paid players to come to play at this level as well as still have a few guys on daft wages from when we were in the SPL.
If we didn’t pay to bring in a few experienced guys the fans would have been on Greens back and season ticket sales would have struggled.
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I don’t agree regarding the wages as unless you’ve resigned yourself to only winning a lower division then our aim should be to building a team to win every tournament we enter, especially in Scotland.
If you think winning the third is a successful season then you’ve accepted mediocrity.
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WE ARE THE PEOPLE. THATS WHY.
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Simply because we can.
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But we shouldn’t.
It’s the reason we’re in this mess. This league. This situation. The reason we have this standard of players – which are over-paid.
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The problem is you should get what you pay for and simply put we are being fleeced at the moment. Guys like Sheils, Black, Sandazza etc are on double what the highest paid Utd player is on and yet were all passengers today and outclassed. We have overpaid for mediocracy for years and is one of the main reasons we are where we are at the moment.
This was supposed to be a fresh start for us….build a young, vibrant, expansive team and give them the chance to learn and progress through the divisions. Instead we have a team filled with overpaid (alledged) experienced players who are underachieving. I would bin these guys and play the likes of Crawford, Aird, Walsh etc. We need to be alot better in so many areas and our financial outlay has to produce more than it has thus far.
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We’ve done things arse about front IMO and down the road we are going to be worse off for it.
Instead of “dangling the carrot” in front of young, hungry players who need to strive to improve their game to stay in the team, guys who could have had the opportunity to develop, win things and improve their game we dangled it in front of average players in the middle of their careers who are now being paid the most money of their lives to play at a level that they think they can simply breeze through by phoning it in.
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beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 19:49
Good. Neepheid put me right about the fact you are not a new poster, and, of course, you have a perfect right to put your case forward, you do it quite elloquently. I’ve clearly judged you wrong, it was just that over the past 24 hours at times your posts have popped up more often than any two other posters (though in truth there wasn’t that much posting going on) and there were times you had two or three consecutive posts, all banging the same drum, which never looks good. Anyway, I feel a bit of a Chuck (or is that a Dick?) and hope you continue to post, and who knows, we might get into a real argument one day 😉 .
Thanks to neepheid for putting me right 🙂
beatipacificiscotia says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 12:51
You can spend a day in an Edinburgh pub with Hearts and Hibs fans and you will get a free-flow of good natured banter. No glasses smashed, no bloody noses, no hatred.
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I have drunk in my local pub for over 20 years – it is a mixed pub and ranger and celtic fans watched games together, even Old Firm ones, without a single incident in all that time. Since the Spring there has been a total change in atmosphere and many regulars now drink in other pubs which tend to support one or other club. A nastiness level has crept into everything and where before both sides chatted, had banter and mixed – there is now an almost visible division. The pub customers are mainly composed of professional and self-employed businessmen with prices and location tending to ensure a non-violent or aggressive clientele.
So I’m afraid I just cannot accept your comment: ‘I believe that it only becomes relevant if you let it’. The owner of my local is tearing his hair out because his takings have halved and a solution is beyond his control – I would normally have watched the Rangers game there today – I didn’t and watched it at home. Tomorrow I would also have gone there but am going to another pub to watch Celtic with others who have forsaken their former local. I also have allowed myself a quiet smile at your Lorna Doon attitude that religious division and all the havoc and hurt it brings can all be avoided by simply ignoring it.
Btw I come from a mixed religious background and have attended both sets of schools and I haven’t practiced any religion for almost 60 years but have no beef with anyone else following the religion of their choice. My life has been spent living and working in the Glasgow area and I have a lot of professional experience in the unsavoury aspects of football violence and it roots.
Now that you have explained your background I will give you the benefit of the doubt on the PR ‘plant’ issue for the moment but I have to observe that I don’t believe you are in a position to actually make an objective an informed statement on what has been happening recently because you just don’t have the personal experience, knowledge and understanding required to do so.
You actually tend to confirm my judgement in the way that you seem to totally miss the point that in the west of Scotland it isn’t about football rivalry but about ensuring continuation of a way of life and, trust me, people who make statements on the matter without understanding it fully are much more likely to inflame than calm the situation.
I would commend you to continue your away-day trips around Scotland and desist from simplistic pronouncements on a complex issue beyond your ken. At the end of the day the real problem is not within Scottish Football but within, mainly, the west of Scotland culture and football can never clean-up its act until the societal issues are fully addressed and resolved by the politicians – unfortunately they are too frightened of losing votes to effectively grasp the nettle.
And while the lambeg drum is beaten for financial gain and Rangers fans are continually sold a PR myth then the temperature of the west of Scotland will continue to rise.
neepheid says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 19:48
Thanks Neepheid, you beat me to the punch in mentioning I’ve been contibuting to this site for a while. I’m afraid that people jumping on a small part of my post (an appeal to pragmatism) and ignoring the really important and detailed stuff got my back up.
I will continue to post and appreciate your encouragement. I might give it a rest for a while though. You never know, someone might actually respond to my original idea on league reconstruction in the meantime. What’s the chances?
angus1983 says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 19:57
All you guys in Glasgow better get out and stock up with coffee, seems the bears are beginning to wake up and smell it!
unusual Sevco strip today.
I’ve not seen them in that before.
I thought they were playing in the same strips that OLD Rangers played in last year? Thought they had to register their strips at the start of the year – is the Scottish cup different or can they just turn up in a new strip whenever it suits them?
Seem to recall in one of their 1st league games they were wearing the white training tops with numbers on the back
Huddle – what was different about it? The wee pic on the BBC match report seems to show them in their blue top with small beer-logo under the badge (supposed to be a retro 1972-style top, I think).
I believe they’ve been wearing that for a while now? Not sure, though, only going by what I’ve noticed in pics in the papers and stuff.
angus1983 says:
Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 21:23
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Huddle – what was different about it? The wee pic on the BBC match report seems to show them in their blue top with small beer-logo under the badge (supposed to be a retro 1972-style top, I think).
I believe they’ve been wearing that for a while now? Not sure, though, only going by what I’ve noticed in pics in the papers and stuff.
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it wasn’t the same strip they started this season wearing…..not really a big deal, but i thought you had to register your strip at the start of the season – they appear to have used 2 different home tops
I think they are still using last years white away strip, this one has the 5 stars above the crest. The one today came out last summer, under the same guise as Celtic’s new kit, complete with small Tennents sponsor. The deal was probably done before they were confined to liquidation.
Took a nosey onto RM tonight and saw the following
“Wallace was ok going forward but at fault defensively for all three goals.
The rest of the defence was hopeless”
I never saw the game so could not agree or disagree, if correct was Mr Strachan watching, obvously the excitment of being picked for Scotland must have got to him. There was also a very positive post about Jackie McNamara’s post match interview which I aint heard or seen either. Looking forward to Sportscene 🙂
On Thursday night, I wrote a piece, questioning the inclusion of Lee Wallace in the Scotland squad. Today, I watched Lee Wallace at fault in all three goals that his team lost. Going forward he looked very impressive and there is no doubt he is a good player, who gives 100%. I have not changed my mind. In Lee’s current situation, playing against less talented players, on a regular basis, he should not get near a Scotland shirt.
His team mate, Ian Black, was the reason I gave up on Craig Levein. Today, Mr Black displayed who he really is, a very nasty individual, who is not too keen on being on the losing side. No doubt winning, most weekends, in the Scotland’s 4th division makes him feel good. I doubt he will still be with them, should his side eventually make it back to Scotland’s top table.
Well done to Dundee United and their fans for dealing with a very unfair situation in a very civilised and sporting manner.
Also well done to referee, Euan Norris, who I have been critical of in the past, but today i thought he did very well and I congratulate him for his excellent and balanced handling of some very tricky situations.
4 yellows and 2 reds, a very poor team against an SPL team. Why this third division side should have any say on the future of Scottish football is beyond me.
Just watched you-know-who on Sportscene.
Bill Struth will be spinning in his grave and cringing with shame and embarassment.
Now that the dust has settled, may I congratulate Dundee United on creating such an entertaining spectacle out of what could so easily have been a sporting disaster yesterday afternoon, and fair enough messr’s Black and Naismith did their level best towards the end to achieve this.
May I also commend the United fans who in the absence of the usual quota of opposition supporters fairly contributed to make for a great atmosphere. I particularly enjoyed their rendition of the Cranberries song, the name of which escapes me at the moment (!) and a rousing chorus of “you’re not Rangers anymore”.
All round, it made for an excellent afternoons entertainment. I do wonder what the sky viewing figures were though. It went out on Sky1 at the same time as a Premiership match but I dare say more tuned into the Scottish match, particularly if the Sevco fans chose only to boycott the ground and not the tele! Lets hope they didn’t boycott the tv as they need to see the shambles their club has become. For me though, it was simply a joy to watch.
I also wonder if Mr Green will see the result as an opportunity for some more of his beloved old club/ new club spin.
Old Rangers lose 3-0 to United and within the year his Rangers lose by the same margin.
Go on Charlie boy, create some positive spin out of that!
Could it have been that the biggest mistake to date was Sevco boycotting this game,it seemed that the atmoshere of a large crowd [anti Sevco] caused some of their players to appear to be caught in the headlights of a disciplined machine and the result was never a doubt after 15 seconds,I was at the Ibrox old firm game years ago when Murray had banned the Celtic fans and until a late equaliser the atmosphere from the rangers fans was very hostile towards their team,many commented after this game that they would not like to go through a match like that again,the United fans where very vocal and possibly intimidating ,well they seemed to have intimidated Black when he took his long walk,who ever instigated the boycott should be named as although this was meant to financialy harm United???? ,it will be interesting to be a fly on the wall at the monday meeting at ibrox this week ,where they expecting to be standing in a circle patting the back of the guy next to them saying we showed them ,eh ,didnt we ,it seems that with this crowd if it wasnt for bad ideas they would not have any ideas at all on how to conduct themselves ,well we can enjoy the rest of our cup competitions without fear or favour ,out of curiosity,has there been any statement that has came out of the new regime at ibrox that has had a positive on our game.
rougvielovesthejungle says:
Sunday, February 3, 2013 at 09:05
I particularly enjoyed their rendition of the Cranberries song, the name of which escapes me at the moment (!)
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They didn’t, did they? 🙂 This may become a standard whenever the Ibrox team visit SPL grounds … good call, Arabs. 🙂
Congratulations United. Great result, great team and great support! I guess the ref. is in for an ear bashing now for his ‘red on blue’ decisions.
One thing I did notice at the utd game was lots of kids in the rangers support. Possibly parents taking advantage of great pricing and a cleaner atmosphere. Pity they will be having nightmares over the result. Can’t have everything
Keep reading 500 tRFC fans at Tannadice, based on ticket sales I imagine. I was sitting opposite the followers of tRFC, take it from me, there were 150 at most. I wonder if the abuse those ticket holders were receiving from their own number got to them, and they decided against attending?
Re the inclusion of Lee Wallace in the Scotland Squad.
I posted on Friday commenting on the absurdity of trying to gauge a players current form when he’s playing against 4th tier opposition.
I’d forgotten he’d be playing against SPL opposition the following day.
Hate to say “told you so”. I’ll settle for ” Quod Erat Demonstrandum “.
rougvielovesthejungle says:
Sunday, February 3, 2013 at 09:05
I particularly enjoyed their rendition of the Cranberries song, the name of which escapes me at the moment (!)
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They didn’t, did they? This may become a standard whenever the Ibrox team visit SPL grounds … good call, Arabs.
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what’s the song and what’s the significance of the lyrics or title?
I find it quite ironic that the Rangers support are bemoaning their high wage bill. The very same people would have been far from happy if those players had not been brought in.
It was a bit of a rock and a hard place for the owners and management at the club. They have to have players of a certain standard, or the fans will not accept it. However in order to do so they have to spend too much and in doing so post losses.
It really was a classic lose/lose situation. They chose to keep the fans onside and sell season tickets and shares. However that means the club will have to go into debt in it’s first season, albeit debt to it’s own holding company. That’s actually not very far away from what Craig Whyte tried to do, with the club being indebted to it’s owners.
Andrew Smith of Scotland on Sunday was recently doubted on this clog.
Here is his side-column piece which accompanied the match report in today’s SoS …
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Dundee United fans revel in Rangers win
(actualy headline in newspaper: “Tangerine taunters revel in 90 minute Mock The Weak show”)
Published on Sunday 3 February 2013
IT WAS possible to believe that every last Rangers fan had actually respected the boycott of Tannadice yesterday.
So little was heard of the 422 who did show, these refusal-refusniks might have well have watched on the box. How they will have wished they hadn’t gone anywhere near Dundee yesterday. Tannadice, blanketed in tangerine, rocked. More than that, it mocked. Mercilessly. The home supporters staged a monster mockathon, the like of which they haven’t treated themselves to since Dundee were last in their firing line for the funnies.
The United faithful, buoyed by the appointment of Jackie McNamara as manager, were set up for their day to give the reincarnated Rangers a roasting by the 15-second lead they never looked like surrendering. They started doing so even before kick-off with a chorus of “who the f****** hell are you”, which segued into “you’re not Rangers anymore”. Harsh, but on the basis of the anaemic nature of what the Ibrox club subsequently produced, correct to a point.
There was little let-up as the 422 Rangers support sat motionless, impassive. United fans taunted them by “doing the bouncy”, telling them they were only here to see their club, and generally giving it to them tight. And just when it looked like they were beginning to bore of the baiting, a second goal gave them new impetus, with Ally asked the score and a stinging “you’ve never won f*** all”.
Refreshed by the half-time, they spent the second period singing the Cranberries’ Z*mbie on an interminable loop. Other refrains made the repertoire, some of them even – gasp – nothing to do with Rangers. In response, just before many of them cleared off after United added a third, the small, and hardiest band of follow-followers managed to raise a strangulated cry in support of Rangers. That it soon died a death said, well, all too much.
——
… and here’s a piece of the match report from Mr SMith:
“The mask really has slipped to reveal Rangers as a Third Division team with a ridiculous wage bill.
For all that he played the diplomat afterwards, Jackie McNamara’s first match in charge of the Tannadice club, from the 15th second when double-scorer Johnny Russell made it 1-0, was a straightforward swatting of an inept lower division opponent.
Rangers supporters insist they are the same club post-liquidation. On the evidence of such a gulf between what they were not so long ago and what they are now, you wonder why they don’t want to create distance. Their team do that on the park, and lagged miles behind a sharp, energised home team, with the most notable contributions the straight red card to Kal Naismith for a horrible lunge on Willo Flood late on and the dismissal that quickly followed for Ian Black, who could have had two yellows long before he inevitably did. Rangers manager Ally McCoist admitted Black, who gestured as if to pick up the corner flag and spear it towards the United supporters as he walked off, “didn’t do his team or himself any favours” with his approach.
The entire Rangers selection, and the man who has assembled them, didn’t do themselves any favours. Rangers have a £7 million wage bill – double that of United – precisely to be competitive in cup ties such as yesterday’s, even if their manager now prefers to say winning a league they simply couldn’t fail to win is their focus. That isn’t why Dean Shiels, David Templeton, Francisco Sandaza and Black were brought to the club.”
——
Much petted-lip greeting at RM over the singing by Dundee Utd fans, particularly because one song deployed was apparently “Go home ya H**s”.
The bears are getting all righteous and holier-than-thou, and intend reporting this “sectarian abuse” to the authorities once they figure out how to do so.
Toys oot the pram, then. Bunch of laughable, hypocritical clowns.
I think this game may prove to be a turning point, with TRFC totally exposed to the eyes of the world as a poor imitation of Oldco populated by lazy money-grabbers. I only regret that they weren’t drawn against Aberdeen at Pittodrie instead of Utd at Tannadice. Lucky Arabs.
apparently its highly illegal according to FF
and something should be done about it 🙂
I didn’t save my deleted post but if anyone is interested the general jist was me questioning whether the MSMs failure to tackle rangers issues actually has a negative effect on the club. Ally is getting an easy time of it when in fact it may be beneficial to the club if he left is the latest example. I likened it to Hans Christian Andersons “emporers new clothing”.
Lots read and seen of the Dundee United victory, with some refreshing honesty from parts of the media.
One thing I’d like to note though, there have been many calls to point out the reasonable fans of the Govan club. Believe we saw sight of them yesterday at Tannadice.
Amongst all the petty politicking of their club they put the football first and foremost and for that, credit to each of them.
@Bunion at 16.46…
I agree with your post about the decent fans turning up at Tannadice, but sadly the majority of bears (and it IS a majority) are calling for the fans photos to be published and also banning them from Ibrox. Words like “scabs” being used. It really is time the real decent fans of the Govan team challenged these views.
timalloy67 says @ 18.48
That’s the rub, there aren’t enough of them to make an impact.
Turnbull Hutton
——————–
Some good articles quoting TH in the run up to the Celtic game.
Came across another article of 2012 quotes below, which include some TH comments;
==========================
“…
14. The Old Infirm
“Welcome to the Third Division.” – Banner across a roundabout as Gers fans entered Peterhead
“If Rangers and Celtic had been given the nod they would’ve gone to the English Premiership and never looked back. Suddenly I’m supposed to be lectured by Walter Smith and others about how bad it is for Scottish football that Rangers are where they are? They’d have left us, saying: ‘Get on with yer diddy league.'” – Turnbull Hutton, Raith Rovers chairman
“I’ve said my piece and will now slip back into semi-anonymity. It’s time for my wife to be seen with me in public without having to wear a burkha.” – Turnbull Hutton
“The SPL threw us out, stole our money due for last year and are pursuing us to strip titles. It’s like coming home, finding your wife in bed with the milkman, asking for a divorce and then a week later asking: ‘Can you forgive me? We’ll make up.'” – Charles Green, Rangers’ “newco” chief executive…”
=========================
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/football-quotes-of-the-year-8430675.html
Interesting if true.
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/is-the-bridge-over-troubled-waters-about-to-collapse/#more-3532
Inquiries into Oldco Rangers / STV Business Deal
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/edgar-blamms-inquiries-into-the-oldco-rangersstv-business-deal/
funny how hittin the send button helps reveal typos
[Fixed :-)]
What are the chances that Dundee Utd have still not been paid the RFC £40k Green committed to pay as a condition of of his newco getting into the 3rd div? I just cannot see Regan intervening in this issue given his track record of appeasement
Indeed
I would not be a bit surprised if Green tried to blackmail Stephen Thomson by threatening a boycott of yesterdays match if the £40k debt was not waived or reduced?
This is how Spivs work
No doubt Thomson will deduct the £40k from any monies due to TRFC
Nowoldandgrumpy
Re Phils blog – its true.
Quite what the impact will be depends on many things but its as true as Rangers had an ebt tax bill
Re yer monicker – Im getting that way, any advice?
If Phil’s article is true it may shed some light on why CG moved to float the Club in December – raising cash to pay debtors in the last week in January. It does sound as if CG was on a tight deadline to repay a debt.
Assuming that CG had to pay debtors from the flotation – how much monies were due to the debtors?
How much monies did the flotation raise? Phil’s suggestion (if I am reading him correctly) is that less than £22m was raised.
If CG has had to borrow capital to buy and/or run the club – the purchase of the assets of RFC from the administrations was circa £5m. It sounds as if CG has had to borrow more than £5m – if that is the case why?
If CG has borrowed more than £5m – was this to pay off TGEF?
Auldheid
That is a moniker that others have given me 🙂
I tell them I am not moaning just imparting knowledge 🙂
CG is extremely quiet right enough 🙂
Couple of things tonight
1. Sevco’s share of yesterdays gate….Chuckie stated it would go to charity. I would love it if DUFC were to publicly announce how much their share was and to ask chuckie which charities it was going to – as they would hand it over direct. Sevco don’t have a great track record of paying monies owed as far as the arabs are concerned, so i’m sure TRFC would understand DUFC’s reluctance to hand over money that was going elsewhere.
2. Phils article. Auldheid, you seem certain it’s true – what do you know? or you just taking phil at his word? Surely now that TRFC are a public limited company and they are claiming to have raised all this money (£22M) they can’t be lying can they? surely the money would have to have been received by whoever was organising this float (Cenkos?)
Oh, i’d be absolutely delighted if this was true, but i just don’t see it.
I believe there was a story Mr Green going to Australia, travelling via Dubai and Qatar.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21309776
the “real” journo’s had their chance and this was the best they could come up with.
if you’re reading this mr cosgrove, why didn’t you ask him some questions which were not on a par with ” what did you have for breakfast” and “what will you be having for lunch”
[any significance in mr regan’s statement – ” i don’t do walking away” ]
Brenda says:
Sunday, February 3, 2013 at 21:48
CG is extremely quiet right enough 🙂
—————————————————-
I believe he may be undergoing a protracted and difficult procedure with a podiatrist, as his foot was lodged so firmly into his mouth after his last round of public statements
Couple of things tonight
1. Sevco’s share of yesterdays gate….CG stated it would go to charity. I would love it if DUFC were to publicly announce how much their share was and to ask CG which charities it was going to – as they would hand it over direct. Sevco don’t have a great track record of paying monies owed as far as the arabs are concerned, so i’m sure TRFC would understand DUFC’s reluctance to hand over money that was going elsewhere.
2. Phils article. Auldheid, you seem certain it’s true – what do you know? or you just taking phil at his word? Surely now that TRFC are a public limited company and they are claiming to have raised all this money (£22M) they can’t be lying can they? surely the money would have to have been received by whoever was organising this float (Cenkos?)
Oh, i’d be absolutely delighted if this was true, but i just don’t see it.
Back to the original topic and not good news I’m afraid. Only the ICT Trust has got back to us and advised they would consider the resolution at their next meeting.
We got an automated response from the Dons Trust, but nothing since. Both of these replies were on 19 January. We also got a request from the RST for a copy because they did not receive the original.
There could be many reasons for the failure to engage;
1. Things move slowly at committee level,
2. A perception that we (TSFM) are being a bit bossy, and a consequent resistance to being told what to do,
3. Nobody ever checks their email,
4. We don’t have our finger quite on the pulse and have misunderstood the mood of the fans.
Whatever the reasons, and as long as #4 above is not amongst them, we appeal to those of you who are connected to club trusts to give them a wee nudge to ascertain what their views or intentions are with regard to Auldheid’s excellent initiative.
It would be a shame if we failed to build any momentum for any reasons, but shameful if it were because of apathy – and to those club chairmen who have cash registers for brains that is their biggest and most effective weapon.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Sunday, February 3, 2013 at 22:26
———————————————
I think Phil has been on the Ball with most predictions in the last 15 months. From the Sheriff Officers on the steps of Ibrox to breaking the Traynor to sevco story a few weeks back.
Despite paying enormously high wages, Mr McCoist and Mr McGreen have failed miserably in bringing anything other than a 3rd division winning side. For that, I give gratitude to all that is good in the world.
Brenda says:
Sunday, February 3, 2013 at 21:48
8 0 Rate This
CG is extremely quiet right enough
______________________________
From FF
Charles Green on his travels
Fans’ Q&A in Dubai today (no details yet). Moving on to Qatar, Perth (Oz!), Melbourne & Sydney.
He is meeting with very affluent People tomorrow and revealed that the main guy in Blue pitch holding lives here
.I’m guessing as he’s out of the country, we wont know who the new kit manufacturer is tomorrow?
___________
i wonder if anyone asked him who it was
as he was supposed to reveal all before the shares went on sale
Huddle – didn’t Mr Green say the DU money would be given to the Rangers Charity Foundation before being distributed from there?
Long Time Lurker says:
Sunday, February 3, 2013 at 21:19 7 0 Rate This
… If CG has borrowed more than £5m – was this to pay off TGEF?
—————
There’s some pretty strong hints in the Phil Mac piece. Not sure what it all means though. On the 1st of Feb he was talking about investors slithering away. This latest piece seems to indicate a ‘we want our money back’ attitude from some of them. Who in Asia was interested in Rangers? Bill Ng?
Yep – Dec 6 2012, STV Sport:
“Green told Rangers’ official website: “The Club was contacted by Dundee United requesting us to waive our rights to the share of the gate under Cup Competition Rule 46(c), this was declined.
“It has been decided by the board that any proceeds from gate receipts due to the Club will be donated to the Prince and Princess of Wales Hospice Brick by Brick Appeal and Erskine charities via the Rangers Charity Foundation.”
Also related to the original topic. Regan has again stated that he (the SFA) has no power to interfere in any league matters. What utterly transparent nonsense.
Given the fact that he has previously stated that in the SPL matter with regard to Rangers and dual payments, his organisation (The SFA) are the appellant body (his rationale for not having grown a pair himself); would anyone like to guess when he was being economical with the truth.
Was it
a: when he said he had no power to interfere and help ensure integrity of competition;
b: when he said the SFA are the higher court of appeal which was why they couldn’t interfere with the dual contracts;
c: both times?
It seems almost unbelievable that the SFA are either constructing a web of deceit or bungling around like pre-school kids – and we still sit and take it.
The head of the SFA, the controlling body of the sport, is saying that he has no power whatsoever to, er, control the sport?
If corrupt is too strong a word to describe them, then how about intellectually challenged?
Remember that the SFA is the clubs. Regan is merely the head civil servant, not the decision maker. Is there anybody, in ANY club, who will speak up over this pantomime horse that pretends to run a multi-million pound industry?
Rhetorical question.
On Phil McG’s piece. I’m no expert by any means but another possibility might be a structured short sell gone spectacularly wrong? Green takes an asian ‘flier,’ calls it an institutional investment (thus convincing the fans to invest their 5m). Only problem is the asian sourced 17m is expected back, with interest! Like others I’m struggling to see why newco would be owe anyone money back outwith the obvious suspects – Greens fabled original consortium, Whtye or Ticketus?
never before this year was there a feeling that league reconstruction would be driven by the SFL with the SPL sitting silent, strange indeed. The SFA need to start doing what everybody expects and that is governing our game.
As for Green, we know that a handful of TRFC fans read this site and they must be concerned about the financial situation mentioned above unless they are happy because the information has come from internet bampots. The RFC support has always had the most split fan base in Britain. They do not do walking away actually means tell us what to do and we will follow. When their club get in a mess they are far to split to challange RFC management and stage a meaningful protest. I mean a peaceful protest.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Sunday, February 3, 2013 at 22:26
The rumour doing the rounds on Friday on CQN started by a reliable poster was that sumat was up and a story might break by 3PM.
That never happened and questions, well on CQN anyway, were being asked. That Phil blogged today suggests he has had the original story on which the sumat was up rumour was based confirmed or he would not have gone public.
However he has said a winding up order is under consideration, which gives time for the Asian chaps mentioned to consider otherwise should they have been persuaded not to, but the fact that Phil has gone public suggests he is confident in his sources and sumat is up.
The story is well sourced or I would not have published.
Press guy who reports on the courts was telling me tonight, in a Central Scotland ‘TRFC orientated’ pub, that a winding up order for Green’s incarnation was due to be heard on 30th January, but that info wasn’t reported in press. He was surprised at this, as he sees it as news and he also sees through Green.
I have to say a pub story is no more reliable than a taxi tale, yet the Servco fans in the pub didn’t argue with the story/fabrication, (?), and money due to Asian backers was also central to the account. Also, I know nothing of the working of courts and legalities, and dismissed the tale til I looked in here tonight. Might be a false alarm, but I live in hope. 😉
Re Phil Mac’s postings
I asked the question the other day but didnt get an answer.
As Not The Huddle Malcontent says would Cenkos not have to see the colour of the money before the £22m was announced.
or
Is it like donating to charity when you can pledge a tenner but then not bother to pay up when the person comes looking
or
Like happended in the Dragon’s Den
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303097/Dragons-Den-winner-reveals-80k-promise-fact-loan–26-500-emerged.html#axzz2JspJe4GG
where the shares bought on a loan basis and repayment is due. Lets not forget Imran Ahmad seemed to get a healthy amount of interest on his short term loan.
or
Is Phil referring to the previously mentioned ‘internal debt’ and those who funded the purchase of the assets are now wanting their cash back as Mr Green is defaulting on his repayment arrangements due to needing all the cash he has just to keep the ship afloat.
Slightly confused but not surprised that cash may be running out (or needing paid out) as it has been clear for sometime that unless there has been some serious cost cutting the expenditure to keep the club running day to day is still pretty hefty. With reduced income and no sign of any commercial deals on the horizon things must be tight.
Have faith in Phil 🙂 simples 🙂
Thanks Brenda
I believe you Phil, but thousands wouldn’t/won’t.
I understand that Mr Green is currently in Dubai meeting one of Blue Pitch Holdings main investors.
When you say ‘men from the east’ how far east do you mean? Middle East, Indian Subcontinent, South East Asia, the Far East?
No,don’t tell me, I am just being nosey.
You can just imagine the conversation after the United game;
AMcC : “Charlie, we need a £25m plus transfer kitty to make sure of winning the 2nd Division next season!”
CG : “Sorry Ally but we’ve got these investors out east demanding their money back fairly sharpish”
AMcC : “What? But …. but …. but, don’t they know we don’t do walking away unless it’s from paying our debts!? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE!???”