by Auldheid for the Scottish Football Monitor
On these pages at least there is a mounting lack of trust that the Scottish Football Association can or will govern our game in a fair and honest manner that recognises the principle of sporting integrity as paramount.
This mistrust is equalled only by the frustration at being unable to do anything to change the attitude and action of those at the SFA (and Leagues) responsible for that governance, a frustration compounded by the reluctance of the mainstream media to focus on the very issues of trust and integrity that concern us.
Back in early 2010 Celtic supporters represented by the Celtic Trust, various Association groups and individuals felt the same frustration and found a way to make their voices heard at the SFA – by using their club as a channel of communication to articulate their concerns.
A resolution was agreed and passed to Celtic to convey to the SFA and it was heeded by the club. There is no reason in why a similar conduit cannot be used by supporters groups of all clubs.
The enormity of the task, to get the majority of trusts and associations of all clubs to support this approach and give it sufficient weight, should not be underestimated, but in the interests of amplifying our voice, it is worth the effort.
Based on that 2010 experience, and on the discussion that has taken place on TSFM we have arrived at a (now amended) resolution below under the auspices of TSFM and which has been sent to all representative club supporters groups.
We believe one of the reasons the SFA and SPL were able to mislead (or simply fail to provide leadership) was because of the lack of clarity surrounding who should take provide that leadership and what principles should have been paramount.
The SFA were as tied to the commercial impact of Rangers demise as the SPL and indeed had to be reminded by the supporters of the importance of that sporting integrity. In the aftermath of the Rangers implosion, both the SFA and Leagues on the face of it appear still too commercially oriented to act in a way that balances commercialism and sporting principles.
We have attempted to address this in the resolution below. It also contains additional points raised already on TSFM and elsewhere. It is designed to assist in the widening of accountability in the sport.
We are not wed to the draft or the language. It is there to be revised but we hope it contains enough food for thought to be acceptable to the supporters groups and the clubs.
As recently as today, the SFA has published a Fans Charter. We welcome this development, and although it does not address our specific concerns with respect to governance it is a step in the right direction (http://www.fanscharter.com/).
Some of the principles published are;
- Challenge is to make a National Fans Charter known, accepted and influential
- Getting fan involvement in drafting charter important to acceptance, influence and growing awareness.
We think our resolution is an even bigger step in the direction of those principles.
DRAFT Proposal for Representative Supporter Groups e.g. Trusts or Associations to send to their club to convey to the SFA/SPL/SFL Boards.
We [Insert Association/Trust name here] and in association with fans’ groups of other clubs, ask [Insert Club name here] to convey the following to the Scottish Football Association, SPL and SFL on our behalf.
1 We believe that the commercial viability of Scottish football at the professional level depends absolutely on the belief by supporters that sporting integrity is at the heart of all competition, and that those governing them and the rules by which they exercise governance, must hold sporting integrity as paramount above ALL other concerns. This belief can be summed up in the one word “trust” Without trust in those responsible for governing Scottish Football, commercial viability will suffer, to eventual ruin of our game.
2 There is a perception (accompanied by some dismay and anger) among football supporters throughout Scotland that those who were charged with upholding the rules of the SFA and SPL/SFL, only did so partially – and even then only because of the threat of supporter action if they did not.
3 There appears to be no distinction or order of hierarchy between those governing the game (the SFA) for whom we believe preservation of sporting integrity should be the prime purpose, and the leagues (SPL/SFL) for whom commercial aspects are (understandably) uppermost. As a result sporting integrity lost its primacy and it was left to supporters to insist on it.
4 Consequently many Scottish football supporters have lost confidence that the Scottish Football Association will fulfil their purpose of safeguarding the sport. Indeed their silence following the revelation of a 5 way agreement last summer on the future of the liquidated Glasgow Rangers has exacerbated this loss of confidence in the SFA’s ability to administer professional football in Scotland in a manner that reflects their duty of care to all aspects of the game and everyone who takes part in it.
5 Decisions and deals have been taken by the SFA, SPL, and SFL without any public scrutiny. The operations and decisions of those bodies lack transparency and they are not accountable in any recognisable form to the football supporters throughout the land, without whom there is no professional association.
6 In our view this loss of trust can only begin to be restored by the SFA publically committing itself to:
(i) The production of an unequivocal “mission” statement of purpose/intent which will state (in whatever form they may exist) that maintaining sporting integrity is and will always be their prime goal. The statement will also describe how they intend to ensure this principle is followed in their interactions with Leagues and Clubs, particularly when commercial decisions that might undermine sporting integrity are implemented by the Leagues. (e.g. In the case of TV contracts, sponsorship or any significant league reconstruction).
(ii) Further: in recognition of the inability of some individuals to provide leadership during the past year simply because of conflicts of interest, take steps to remove any such conflict, and in doing so enable the organisation and its office bearers to function unhindered.
(iii) In the interests of transparency, publish the “five point agreement” that allowed The Rangers entry into SFL and SFA, provide a supporting rationale for entering into the agreement, and confirm that the terms have been or are being complied with.
Along with other trust restoring measures (see attached Annex) these steps should mark the end of the continuing lack of trust in the authorities.
7. We appreciate that it may be the start of next season before there is any visible evidence of our concerns being addressed although the statement of purpose/intent by the SFA (i) and action at (ii) can be readily put in place – would be a welcome early development.
8. All club’s supporters groups will be watching closely for signs of progress before advising our members and our other supporters if we feel the necessary trust restoring steps are being taken and advise that they can purchase their season books for 2013/14 knowing that sporting integrity is once more absolutely paramount in Scottish football to the betterment of our game.
Signed __________________________ on behalf of
[Insert supporter trust/association name here]
Date ______________
Annex to resolution.
The following is a list of other measures that the SFA should take in order to satisfy supporters that they should be entrusted with the job of governing Scottish football.
- To increase transparency and accountability in a meaningful way – possibly via creation of an active supporter’s liaison group drawn from representative supporter groups of each club. Its remit, using an agreed consultative mechanism to generate dialogue, to hear supporters’ concerns and consider them before key decisions are made. In an industry that is totally interdependent it is folly to exclude a major stakeholder from key decision making.
- A tightening of and an annual and independent audit of the process for granting UEFA Club (FFP) and National Club licensing reporting to the representative supporter liaison group as well as other SFA members to ensure all clubs are living within their means.
- Introduction of a rule requiring all Scottish football club directors to declare any financial interest/shareholding in any club other than their own and to rule that disposition of those shares/interest should be a part of a fit and proper assessment of a person’s qualification to hold office at an association club.
- A feasibility review of Scottish refereeing to assess the potential for creating a professional service that the SFA provide to the leagues by recruiting and training referees, but where the leagues monitor and reward consistently good performances to an agreed standard. Given the sums dependent on referee decisions, the current system must change for everyone’s sake including the referees.
- A full explanation about the circumstances (including dates) surrounding the award of a UEFA Club licence to Rangers in spring/summer of 2011 when there was unpaid social tax that prime facie did not meet the conditions for deeming the granting of a licence acceptable under the UEFA FFP rules on unpaid tax (the wee tax bill).
The [Insert Club Name here] Trust/Supporters Association asks [Insert Club Name here] to convey our concerns above with their provenance to the appropriate authorities as they see fit viz:
- Football Authority in Scotland (The SFA)
- Europe (UEFA)
- Scottish Government (on the issue of accountability to supporters and proper checks and balance governance.)
Re JT’s rambelings. Why circle the wagons unless you see a very real threat on the horizon?
If this isn’t a big deal the keep your powder dry. Or has JT shot one off a little too soon?
Maybe it’s just a flash in the pan.
Think that’s enough metaphors
Would anyone benefit from a share price drop after a very noisy, messy, public non-payment of a bill, previously agreed by two well-acquainted businessmen?
James Forrest says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 11:56
Enjoyable read, James, though glad I brought a flask with me 🙂
It’s a bit like when the wife asks ‘Does my bum look big in this?’ And you think, ‘it looks bloody massive’, but reply ‘of course not, dear!’ You do that because you know to say otherwise would, at the very least, upset the wife, make you late for your night out coz she’s got to change, and mean you are everything that’s bad for the rest of the night. On the other hand, her bitchy, not so best, friend might say it ‘it looks huge’ and, unwittingly, give her the chance to don a fresh outfit that leaves her the belle of the ball! OK that last bit might be wishfull thinking 😉
I suppose the truth often hurts, but keeping it secret could do the most long term damage!
James Forrest says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 11:56
Superbly written, honest and magnanimous. I can only concur and hope that supporters of this new club wake up before it’s too late….if it is not already too late.
ianagain says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 12:17
Seems a sensible chap and some of what he says, about the hospital etc, makes so much sense that it will be ignored by most in blue. Sensible or not, despite seeing through Green’s lies, he still sees him as a good businesman though and thinks all he has to do is to stop lying, rather than to go deeper and to ask ‘why is he lying? What is he hiding?’ Until these questions are asked, and answered on an evidence based basis, then the spectre of a third Murray/Whyte event remains.
If I was in Green’s position, I’d happily present all the evidence I hold to refute all the suggestions of dodgy dealings etc to stop all this negative publicity and to prove, beyond doubt, that I am honest in all my dealings in my company. But then, that’s maybe why I am not in Green’s position, as telling the truth gets you nowhere in Green’s spivworld!
James Forrest says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 11:56
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http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/living-on-a-prayer/
My take on the latest rantings out of Ibrox, especially this contention that their fans should trust nothing but what they hear out of the Blue Room.
Why does that sound familiar
_____________________
I have just read the James Forrest piece – absolutely outstanding piece of writing. Should be essential reading and thinking material for the denizens of Ibrox. I commend all on here to read it – excellent stuff James!
It is very interesting that in the lead up to Valentine’s Day we are all experiencing deja vu.This is no coincidence as it seems the hot oil is being poured onto the dissenters from the battlements of Ibrox,and in turn we are prompted to react.
There is ,in my view, a distinct lack of dignity in the style and content of such outpourings from Govan and I can only surmise that there is grave concern among the more aware followers about the current and future management of this ‘once proud institution’.
For a business,in its infancy,to allow the recent ‘press releases’, is ,in my view, ill advised to say the least.It strikes me that there is little cohesion in the boardroom and in these ,in my opinion, poorly written utterances we have evidence, it seems, of a business in gross disarray.
FWIW I think this WUO fiasco is the beginning of a pretty rapid demise – there is none of the ST cash left and from here on in every penny Rangers spend has to come from the IPO – and CG and his cohorts ain’t going to be doing that for any length of time.
I suspect TRFC will be sold on and RIFC will keep the physical assets.
Thereafter TRFC will have to cut their cloth severely ( cut overall expenditure by about 50% ) and be forever bled dry by RIFC. If they are lucky, the Rangers will stagger on as a club whose playing budget will be in line with most SPL mid table clubs and who will be nothing more than an occasional nuisance to Celtic domination.
If it all goes pear-shaped and no-one buys TRFC then an assets sale will ensue and they will be deid and gone. Either way Charlie is quids in.
If
Can I ask a pretty simple question, one which seems to be being ignored by a lot of people, especially the Rangers support.
What has Charles Green done, either before creating the new club, or since he did, which gives the slightest suggestion that he is good for them. Financially or otherwise.
It seems obvious that how he bought the assets of the business in the first place was a farce and a contrivance. There’s no need to go into the details but he clearly wasn’t a last minute bidder or anything like it. It could not be more apparent that between him and the administrators the whole thing was a carve up.
Since he has taken over he has promised transparency but delivered secrecy. He has made all sorts of claims but none have come to fruition. Where are the new deals, the increased revenues, the improvements to the stadium etc. There is growing doubt over just how much money was actually raised in the share issue. Actually money that the club can use, rather than meaningless references to share prices and market capitalization. He seems to have set the business up so that his holding company holds the money, but Rangers get the debt. He will presumably provide loans to pay those debts and get that money back with interest and charges.
In short, other than being slightly better in front of the cameras what is the actual difference between him and Mr Whyte.
Not exactly a glowing business history
Bought the assets for a song.
All sorts of promises not kept
Club owed by a holding company
Club owing the holding company money
Deflecting and obfuscating
Circling the wagons and rallying the troops – everyone is against us.
In short, how different is this scenario to the previous one.
Just a wee observation.
Mr Green made a big play about the fact that the time Rangers got back to the SPL their youngsters will have gained plenty match experience.
How will that compare with the other club with financial woes, who have employed a solid jobbing manager who has had to blood their youngsters (Ave age 22.6 the other weekend) in the SPL.
In addition to playing regularly against better opposition in the SPL these young men will shortly also have the experience of a cup final under their belt as well.
Who would you put your money on if the two teams of youngsters were to meet?
alex thomson @alextomo
My understanding is, if RFC fail to settle, winding up proceedings will commence in around 10 days.
Can we please put the Arsenal share situation to bed once and for all.
As a thank you for playing a friendly at Highbury, when Arsenal were strapped for cash at the start of the last century, Rangers were given a share certificate for 2 Arsenal ordinary shares, which adorned a wall in Ibrox until 2011/12. At that time it was noticed they had disappeared, with the inference that TGEF had sold them, but that the resulting funds of c£200K had never reached RFC’s bank a/c. The probability is that the shares, which had increased in number from 2 to 18 approx as a result of bonus issues, found their way to Mr Usmanov.
Arsenal have a share capital of approx 62,000 shares, with a value of £11,250 per share, giving them a capital value of approx £700 million.
The inference that the 18 Rangers shares have any significance in such a massive share issue is ludicrous, as is the suggestion from Green that he intends to buy them back. Usmanov will not want to sell them, nor should he, and RFC do not have sufficient free funds to buy them in any event.
As for a pre-season friendly, Arsenal have established themselves as one of Europe’s most ethical and self-sufficient clubs, and I would guess that RFC are at the bottom of any list of possible opponents. RFC might find it easier getting a game with Dallas Cowboys.
wottpi says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 13:59
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Just a wee observation.
Mr Green made a big play about the fact that the time Rangers got back to the SPL their youngsters will have gained plenty match experience.
=======================================
When I read things like that I always wonder what fans of current SFL1 clubs think.
There seems to be this assumption that Rangers will get promoted year on year, with nary a stumble. What do fans of teams like Partick Thistle, Dumfermline, Morton, Falkirk, Hamilton etc think of that. Will they really walk though the leagues.
tomtomaswell says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 13:14
@tomtomaswell,
TD since your comment fails on the last line since it invokes Godwins Law.
I suggest you do a bit of reading on what the N4z1s were actually about in thought, word, commitment, strategy, tactic and deeds. ‘The World at War’ is also excellent viewing if you’d care to take the time and can get hold of it.
I also suggest you maybe read Nick Cohen (Guardian columnist) when he sets out how any thinking person automatically loses an argument when they compare the other side with, or effectively call them, N4z1s. I think most of what Cohen writes is mince, but on this one he gets it spot on.
Apols to anyone if this seems a rant, but nobody gets anywhere in discussing th Rangers situation if one side calls the other N4z1.
tomtomaswell says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 14:03
@tomtomaswell,
Ditto my last comment.
Carl31,
Did the predecessor club to Sevco not have a game out in Jerusalem/ Tel-Aviv once, fairly recently, where the visiting supporters infamously treated their hosts to Nazi salutes?
Did the predecessor club to Sevco not have a game out in Jerusalem/ Tel-Aviv once, fairly recently, where the visiting supporters infamously treated their hosts to Nazi salutes?
_______________________________________________________________________
Rougvie, I think you will find that they were “red hand of Ulster salutes”…..
OK, ignore teh source…..discuss
GIOVANNI DI STEFANO @DEVILSADVOKAT
At the moment as things stand RFC are ten times more solvent than the SPL and if RFC ever became shareholders in SPL may end up liable for any debts that SPL incurred I say “may” subjectively… i note also that the SPL TRUST has failed to file annual returns due 1 January
Scott @purplemadboy
@DEVILSADVOKAT is it true that the SPL have 20 days to lodge their accounts or it could be wound up ?
GIOVANNI DI STEFANO @DEVILSADVOKAT
@purplemadboy yes but you normally get like 60 days before anything serious happens UNLESS someone (!!!!) complains..say no more
then
GIOVANNI DI STEFANO
@DEVILSADVOKAT
@GallusPioneer they will lodge whether they will be accurate or show the SPL to be INSOLVENT as they are another matter
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are the SPL late in submitting their accounts?
are they trading whilst insolvent?
come on news hounds……
@rougvielovesthejungle,
I dont know, but whats your point? Are you also making the comparison?
In my view a comparison belittles the despicable real events and behaviour of actual Nazis of WW2. I’m just saying it gets us nowhere. Don’t you see this?
Carl31 (@C4rl31) says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 14:27
————————————————-
I think you might be taking that too literally…. It’s like shouting “Hey Ref, you need to visit Specsavers”, it doesn’t mean we are having a go at people who have some form of blindness.
My mistake!……
The Ibrox chief also announced a deal is in place to buy back the shares in Arsenal sold by Craig Whyte, with plans for a pre-season clash between the clubs also in the offing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2275356/Rangers-reject-new-winding-order-claims.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#axzz2KGGoVDH5
SFL Constitution and Rules…
Rule 21. DUAL INTEREST IN CLUBS no Member, Associate Member or Official, may at one time either directly or indirectly:-
21.1.1 hold or seek to acquire beneficial ownership of or deal in the shares or
securities of another club; or
21.3 For the purposes of this Rule 21 (Dual Interests in Clubs):-
“person” includes, without limitation, an individual, partnership, consortium,
unincorporated body or association, and any other organisation having legal
capacity.
“club” means a football club in membership or associate membership of
the League and any football club in membership of the F.A. Premier League,
The Football League, The Scottish Premier League or the Irish Premier
League.
dentarthurdent42 says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 14:18
Of course my assumption is that the Jambos youngsters will manage to keep the club in the SPL in future years.
Forgive me for going all Charley 🙂
Obviously I appreciate what you’re getting at Carl31.
My point was that not many teams supporters would make such salutes at an Israeli football ground, certainly not from Scottish clubs anyway.
Why would the SPL be insolvent, are they not just a body that manages the league. I agree the combined debt of the clubs could be concerning but for me, the SPL as a legal entity cannot run up many debts. As such, Rangers or any club for that matter, would not be liable for much, if anything.
As for any existing club or body or business being compared to a new organisation that has just floated the business, why would you even make that comparison?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:17
Ah ha but who would be buying the Arsenal Shares, the club of the holding company 🙂
Anyway don’t be so pedantic you know firstly that the rules don’t apply to Charley and secondly it ain’t gonna happen and can be chalked up to another piece of nonesense whose only purpose is to keep the gullible interested and onside.
Alan McGregor is to move to West Brom in the summer for a fee rumoured to be £4million.
I think someone might not be best pleased.
madbhoy24941 says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:15
Carl31 (@C4rl31) says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 14:27
————————————————-
I think you might be taking that too literally…. It’s like shouting “Hey Ref, you need to visit Specsavers”, it doesn’t mean we are having a go at people who have some form of blindness.
———————————————-
What I’m trying to get across is that N4z1s are right at the end of the despicability and detestability scale. They are the worst of the worst.
With respect, the joke about blindness is in a bit of poor taste, but comparison with a blind person is not comparison with a N4z1 and doesn’t come close.
N4z1 comparison is the end of the road for reasonable comparison and reasonable discussion. In terms of sticks and stones, its the lowest descent into name calling.
Hence why there is a Godwins Law wrt N4z1s, and not wrt blind people.
Also, there has been a few comments from time to time that state this is an anti-Rangers blog. Now, I and others disagree with this view, but, whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion, it doesn’t help our case when a comment that calls Rangers N4z1s gets 30-odd TUs.
Just sayin.
rougvie,
cheers.
I agree they shouldn’t, and the type that displayed such behaviour are indeed an intolerant bunch.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:12
OK, ignore the source…..discuss
GIOVANNI DI STEFANO @DEVILSADVOKAT
…
============
Is he tweeting during his own court case – accused of fraudulently posing as a lawyer, and embezzling clients’ money – allegedly ?
https://www.duedil.com/company/SC004276/rfc-2012-p-l-c
oops!
“ABOUT RFC 2012 P.L.C.
Rfc 2012 P.L.C. was founded on 27 May 1899 and has its registered office in Glasgow.
The organisation’s status is ‘In Liquidation’, and they have 37 associated directors – 0 are current, and 37 are former.
The company has 4 subsidiaries. The business has total assets of £136,272,000 plus total liabilities of £56,828,000.
They are due to pay £2,231,000 to creditors and are owed back £3,877,000 from trade debtors.
As of their last financial statement, they had £348,000 in cash reserves.
The company’s current book value is £67,850,000, and the value of their shareholders’ fund is £79,444,000.”
It seems to me that this forum has, not for the first time, been whipped into a frenzy due to the prospect of a winding up order and probable death by Valentines Day.
I’m one of the few on here who hope TRFC don’t die and will no doubt get plenty TD’s. However, believe it or not, in one respect I hope everything I’ve read over the past week is true or is substantially true. Otherwise, I’ll feel that i’ve wasted a lot of my time reading a forum that was essentially wrong. Why would anyone continue reading/contributing to such a forum?
What’s my point here? – It’s becoming, and not for the first time, very difficult to filter through all the anti-rangers cr@p!
allyjambo says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 13:08
James Forrest says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 11:56
It’s a bit like when the wife asks ‘Does my bum look big in this?’ And you think, ‘it looks bloody massive’, but reply ‘of course not, dear!’
…
I suppose the truth often hurts, but keeping it secret could do the most long term damage!
===========================
So…aj…I interpret your above post as stating that, contrary to ‘the unwritten rules’, the next time you are asked this question, you are going to give your wife an honest answer ?
[I have it in writing, and there are numerous witnesses.]
Please do let us all know how you get on with that.
Good luck ! 😉
tomtomaswell on Friday, February 8, 2013 at 14:03
3 2 Rate This
Humble Pie says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 13:26
James Forrest says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 11:56
Superbly written, honest and magnanimous. I can only concur and hope that supporters of this new club wake up before it’s too late….if it is not already too late.
—————————————————————–
It’s a 100 years too late. I know now how Churchill must have felt in the 30′s. In the same way that there was no such thing as a good Nazi there was no such thing as a decent RFC. The blocks that it was built on were rotten to the core ..
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Not sure I agree with the reasoning here and in your previous post tomtom. I’m also with Carl31 on the message it sends out about this blog. Your analogy reminds me of the bitter wartime saying: the only good German is a dead German. A terrible thing to say really, since not all Germans were Nazis. By the same token, I’m not sure it’s reasonable to lump every erstwhile supporter with a blue scarf in the same category as the extremists. Some people just go along to see a game of football oblivious to everything else. Many supporters have zero knowledge of ‘the history’.
The current crisis is no doubt driving reasonable fans over the edge because they feel the club’s woes personally. Hence the reasonable bluenose is even more scarce than usual. When ignorance prevails enlightened arguments are needed.
The authorities have been too tolerant for too long towards the BB contingent allowing the nonsense free rein. Did someone mention governance?
By the way, I don’t agree with any of Sandy Jardine’s opinions either, but there must be other Ibrox figures for you to poke fun at who are not suffering from cancer.
shield2012 says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:51
…
What’s my point here? – It’s becoming, and not for the first time, very difficult to filter through all the anti-rangers cr@p!
===================
On a positive note then shield2012, what would you like to see happen in the MSM that would change the views expressed in JT’s piece yesterday ?
shield2012 says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:51
———————————-
Have you read James Forrests piece? http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/living-on-a-prayer/
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:59
By the way, I don’t agree with any of Sandy Jardine’s opinions either, but there must be other Ibrox figures for you to poke fun at who are not suffering from cancer.
———————————————————
Well I’m certainly in the firing line today 😀
Another apology offered. I wasn’t having a pop at Sandy Jardine. I lost my sister to cancer last year so it’s not a disease I poke fun at. I was highlighting the poor journalism. The headline speaks of Whyte when in fact the article refers to Green.
Sheild2012
————–
Got to agree. Although I have had to stop myself a couple of times and consider ‘is this really the place to post a random stream of thought?’ And deceived against it.
I think we all dinned on the potential winding up order and dove in head first. With the lack of movement it’s possible cramp is starting to set in. Maybe a new thread would keep us floating above the surface?
shield2012 says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:51
4 13 i Rate This
It seems to me that this forum has, not for the first time, been whipped into a frenzy due to the prospect of a winding up order and probable death by Valentines Day.
I’m one of the few on here who hope TRFC don’t die and will no doubt get plenty TD’s. However, believe it or not, in one respect I hope everything I’ve read over the past week is true or is substantially true. Otherwise, I’ll feel that i’ve wasted a lot of my time reading a forum that was essentially wrong. Why would anyone continue reading/contributing to such a forum?
What’s my point here? – It’s becoming, and not for the first time, very difficult to filter through all the anti-rangers cr@p!
======================================================
shield2012 – if you cut through what you call the crap (and some of the comment has been wishful thinking and wild assumptions of the impact of Orlit ‘maybe’ seeking a Winding Up Order), it surely must be concerning to Rangers supporters that a creditor is putting out the message that they may seek a WUO against Rangers? The response from Mr Traynor on the company website must also give cause for concern? It seems to me it’s more likely to antagonise media outlets rather than deal with the percieved problems and what benefit does that bring the club? What is the communication strategy he’s working to – to have a single channel to communicate with fans/customers? Is that sustainable or healthy for the club or its fans?
tomtomaswell,
cheers.
I do know that decent Rangers fans exist! 🙂 I speak with them everyday, and they are an everyday bunch. I despaired when one of them was telling me of a protest he was to attend last year – it was when there was talk of a number of protests and around the John Brown ‘Steps of Ibrox’ event – and this guy then told me they were congregating at Hampden to get the message across to the SPL.
After a discussion around ‘was he was aiming at the wrong enemy?’, and ‘was he clear on what he was trying to bring to an end – which perceived slight or punishment?’, he did see some contradictions but went anyway. This was down to him having given his word he would go, and no other particular reason as it turned out.
He isnt in the ‘conspiracy against us’ camp, and is discerning of the facts. I wish they would manage to get organised to get the club of theirs out of the hands of the CGs of this world.
Shield2012 It’s becoming, and not for the first time, very difficult to filter through all the anti-rangers cr@p!
Is that the club or the company you are referring to ?
I have a question for you – What do you think happened to the money that went to the team finishing second in the SPL last season ?
I think it was paid to the team that finished second in the SPL but I could be wrong.
RFC need to split the political movement from the RFC that wants to kick a ball about weekly. The two entities have no reason to exist together.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21167381
(ok, comparison is to EPL….but still…something for Scotland to think about?)
The party is over, it’s time to grow up.
January’s announcement that English football must become more prudent by introducing reforms within a year or face government intervention, followed by Thursday’s warning from the Premier League on spending, signalled what could be an end to the era of extravagance.
The government is essentially looking for clubs to balance the books and for those books to be regularly checked by the Football Association.
Those against would argue that it throws out the principle of self-determination. Institutions in other fields that serve the public are regulated, so why not football clubs?
It has not hurt Germany’s Bundesliga. In fact, Germany’s top flight is in exceptionally rude health because clubs have had to adhere to a licensing system, which has been in place since the league’s inception in 1963.
This is essentially a set of guidelines for clubs to follow to ensure they remain financially solvent. The German football league (DFL) is the sheriff. The British government is hoping that the Football Association produces a similar code.
On the Bundesliga’s licensing system, the German body states: “The DFL examines each club’s fitness to participate in the league according to a range of criteria covering sporting, legal, staffing, administrative, infrastructural, security, media-technical and above all financial competence.”
Failure to ‘stay fit’ could result in the club not having their license renewed and relegation.
It sounds boring because there is no room to speculate to accumulate. However, the recent 50-page report detailing Bundesliga finances for the 2011-2012 season is proof of the success of the league’s long-held philosophies.
Key points from the report:
Turnover of 2bn euros (£1.68m) for the first time in its 50-year history
Fourteen of the 18 clubs had posted a profit – double the total from the 2009-10 period
Highest average attendance figures of any of the top four European domestic leagues – more than the Premier League, Serie A and La Liga – with 44,293 spectators on average (about 10,000 more than the Premier League)
“The licensing system prevents clubs from going too far into debt,” German football league (DFL) president Dr Reinhard Rauball told BBC Sport.
Dr Reinhard Rauball
German league president
“It goes with the German mentality. Making and having high debt is not popular in our society.”
Rauball, who also happens to be the president of league champions Borussia Dortmund, has sat in the DFL hot-seat since 2007. He says the stringent rules have had positive knock-on effects.
“It’s simple. The clubs control costs and don’t spend more than they can afford,” he added.
“Club management is more professional now and creates higher revenue. The increase in media revenue created by the DFL is also a factor.”
Rauball then proudly reeled off a statistic about Bundesliga ticket costs.
“The average price in stadiums is about 23 euros,” he stated.
“Bundesliga matches should be affordable for everybody – that’s what we want and that’s our philosophy. Our passionate fans contribute to its success.”
The figure of 22.85 euros equates to about £19.55. According to BBC Sport’s 2012 Price of Football survey, the average price for the cheapest Premier League matchday ticket was £28.30.
But what the Borussia chief seemed proudest of is that the Bundesliga is currently “the most profitable league in Europe” – a title it has held since the 2008-09 season.
Last year, Deloitte’s report for the 2010-2011 season revealed that the Premier League was by far the richest league with revenues of £2.3bn, while the Bundesliga and Primera Liga had generated £1.6bn each.
However, while the English league made an operating profit of £68m (down by £16m on the previous season) the German high-flyers accumulated £154m – a 24% increase on the previous campaign.
Income from advertising, media distribution and ticket sales have helped produce the record revenues, but the Dortmund chief believes it is the outlay on transfers, or lack of, that have boosted profits.
“Profit is the base of our success,” he added.
“We’ve worked on developing our youth programme. Players like Mario Gotze [Dortmund], Thomas Mueller and Bastian Schweinsteiger [both Bayern Munich] were educated in our youth centres. That’s why we don’t need to spend millions and millions of euros on foreign players.
“We can attract the world’s best, but we’re not willing to spend crazy amounts of money. We’ll continue to focus on German talent that comes out of our academies. Clubs invest about 105m euros a year in those academies. We are proud of them.”
To put that into context, the 18 Bundesliga clubs spent about £253m on transfers during the 2011-12 season, while the 20 clubs of the Premier League splashed out £550m.
Rauball is adamant heavy investment in foreign talent has had a detrimental effect on the England national team, who have not reached the last four of a major tournament since Euro 1996, while Germany have reached five semi-finals in that time
“That was a problem. The quality players in Premier League have been from other countries,” he said.
“When you try to build a team for the World Cup, the coach hasn’t many players to pick from. In Germany we want to go down two lines – one of them is to help our coach Joachim Loew.”
Paul Rawnsley, director in the Sports Business Group at financial analysts Deloitte, recognised the Bundesliga’s success, but added that football associations could also learn from the English model.
Bayern’s Thomas Mueller is a product of Germany’s successful club youth academies
“In terms of its global exposure and revenue generation, the Premier League has achieved an unassailable position for the foreseeable future,” he told BBC Sport.
“Sports clubs from around the world look to learn from England about aspects such as facilities investment and business development.
“Premier League clubs already face an array of financial regulations and this will be further enhanced when Uefa’s financial fair play break-even requirement applies from next season for international competitions, and the Premier League clubs are also considering additional cost control regulations at a domestic level.
“In some respects the evolution of German club football within the context of that country’s business culture and state funding of stadia provides an interesting case study. Different leagues can maybe learn different things from each other.”
Perhaps the British government has already started learning. In 2010, former DFL chief financial officer Christian Muller provided a detailed written submission to the Department of Culture, Media and Sport outlining why the Bundesliga has been a rip-roaring success.
So, maybe it’s time to swallow some pride. England might claim to have given the world football, but it could be that Germany has provided the framework for its future.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 16:10
I thought James Forrest’s post was definitely worth a read. Overall, I liked it and forwarded it to others. (Sorry if my thoughts are a bit underwhelming but I cringe when I hear people going on about how ‘articulate’ a particular piece of ‘rhetoric’ is!).
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:59
… the bitter wartime saying: the only good German is a dead German. A terrible thing to say really, since not all Germans were Nazis.
——
Indeed, perhaps only one of them had the formative idea of being a Nazi in the back of his mind at the time when that phrase was most commonly deployed. ;).
Of passing off-topic interest is that the first person recorded as definitely using the words “the only good Indian’s a dead Indian” was Theodore Roosevelt. They made him President a few years later. Playing to the gallery has evidently been an effective tactic for a while, then.
On a different tack … I don’t think tomtom should be given a hard time for popping at Jardine. Having cancer neither makes you immune from being a git, nor prohibits someone from pointing it out.
blu says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 16:18
shield2012 – if you cut through what you call the crap (and some of the comment has been wishful thinking and wild assumptions of the impact of Orlit ‘maybe’ seeking a Winding Up Order), it surely must be concerning to Rangers supporters that a creditor is putting out the message that they may seek a WUO against Rangers? The response from Mr Traynor on the company website must also give cause for concern? It seems to me it’s more likely to antagonise media outlets rather than deal with the percieved problems and what benefit does that bring the club? What is the communication strategy he’s working to – to have a single channel to communicate with fans/customers? Is that sustainable or healthy for the club or its fans?
———————–
Absolutely blue, it is very concerning. As for Traynor, I cannot believe the club’s spokesman could have distributed such a rant. Others have dissected every single word to search for meaning. Some of the conclusions might be correct, who knows. All I know is – it was a rant that just led to more confusion.
If it wasn’t worthy of comment, why do it?
I know the head of media communications at Sevco Scotland Ltd has misgivings about the press in general but he could do worse that have a gander at this article in the FT – http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a708616a-71f2-11e2-886e-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fcompanies%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct
It’s all the more topical because it concerns JJB who of course used to have a connection with Rangers before Rangers died. But the main point is the charge against the former chairman of JJB of making misleading statements to the market.
The FSA, the SFO and the City of London police take this sort of thing very seriously – I am sure therefore that Mr Traynor will want to make sure that neither he, nor his boss Mr Green, could ever be tarred with the same sort of brush in relation to their exciting new, stock-listed venture and the various statements emanating from therefrom.
Silence is golden, except of course when dealing with one’s creditors.
A NEW QUESTION I HADN’T THOUGHT ABOUT
Alex Thomson reports
“The source has clarified to Channel 4 News that Orlit Enterprises was contracted to source and introduce the investors who provided seed capital in order to acquire the club from the administrator and to secure the June 2012 payroll.”
And to be clear this was not related to the recent IPO so their involvement sounds like it would have stopped once the seed capital was achieved and the buy out agreed.
NOW
Sevco 5088 was only formed on 29 May 2012 with Green buying the assetts after the rejection of the CVA a couple of weeks later on 14 June 2012. As we know Sevco 5088 became Sevco Scotland who became The Rangers Football Club Ltd who are now controlled by The Rangers International Football Club Plc
Therefore if Orlit did the work trying to drum up investors for the CVA/buy-out then when were they commissioned and by whom?
If it was on or after 29 May then it was probably Sevco 5088 and all is fine and dandy with the legal entity that is ‘The Rangers’ today picking up the historical bill and now having to deal with the potential WUO. All OK so far other than you have to ask what was done in two weeks or so to justify £400k plus in fees!!
HOWEVER
If they were contracted before 29 May, possibly on a gentleman’s agreement (as per the Mr Green version of events) why should TRIFC Plc or TRFCLtd now be landed with a bill for possibly £400k plus or indeed be facing the threat of legal action?? Should Charlie and his mates not be paying this out of their own pockets.
Could it be that Charlie has done the old switcheroo and effectively promised to pay his old pal Mr Chan Fook Meng for Orlit’s services on the basis he would honour the gentleman’s agreement if he was unsuccesful in gaining control of Rangers, but as soon as it was possible after gaining control he would draw up a proper contract so that Orlit could be paid from a company that didn’t actually exist at the time of commissioning Orlit for their services?
Not honouring or disputing that contract has now put the club in the doo doo as opposed to Mr Green.
Now where have I heard somethig similar before 🙂
From RM;
“The Union Bears have prepared a display for tomorrows match, this display has taken the group a great deal of time, effort & money to prepare over the last few weeks. We would like to ask all Rangers supporters in the Broomloan Front to participate in this display as the teams emerge from the tunnel…”
=====================
Any guesses on what the display will project ?
How about;
“Sorry Scottish Football, taxpayers and creditors”
or
“Thanks for letting our club into SFL3”
or
“Please, let’s just focus on the football”
Or have I misjudged the mood… 🙄
wottpi says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 17:49
What and its a big if – Mr Green secured the services of Orkit before the Club went into administration?
It would be interesting to know the date when Orkit was approached.
Long Time Lurker says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 18:11
Think it is a long shot that they were on the case pre administration but agreed the timiing is everything
Don’t have a twitter account.
Maybe someone on twitter could ask Phil Mac or Alex Thomson what they know about when Orlit were commissioned and by whom and therefore if it is right that the ‘club’ should now be potentially in the myre not of the club/company’s making.
Good Evening,
A wee light-hearted tale of complete and utter faction”
Juventus, A Rolls Royce, a FIAT and a VAUXHALL VICTOR
http://wp.me/p1G95H-el
None of the people in this tale are real— but then again– the events are not necessarilly false either lol
bailemeanach says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:05
0 13 i
Rate This
Did the predecessor club to Sevco not have a game out in Jerusalem/ Tel-Aviv once, fairly recently, where the visiting supporters infamously treated their hosts to Nazi salutes?
_______________________________________________________________________
Rougvie, I think you will find that they were “red hand of Ulster salutes”…..
________________________________________________________________________
I have no issues with TDs where they are due, but just for clarity I was citing the explanation which was given, and accepted regarding the gestures witnessed at that match. As there is no such thing as a red hand salute, I thik we can all make our minds up about that incident
wottpi says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 17:49
8 0 Rate This
A NEW QUESTION I HADN’T THOUGHT ABOUT
…
Sevco 5088 was only formed on 29 May 2012 with Green buying the assetts after the rejection of the CVA a couple of weeks later on 14 June 2012. As we know Sevco 5088 became Sevco Scotland who became The Rangers Football Club Ltd who are now controlled by The Rangers International Football Club Plc
…
One thing
Sevco 5088 and Sevco Scotland are two separate companies
Slimshady,
Interesting . This is the type of thing I referred to in my post earlier today. Malcolm Murray is an experienced operator in the City. Green is making statements about Rangers financial prospects , which are not supported by the facts.
Murray , by his silence, is at best ignorant of what Green is saying ( although that is beyond unbelievable) and at worst endorsing Greens comments
Imagine if an AIM listed CEO of a small electronics manufacturer was making statements about Apple dropping Foxconn as their manufacturer and replacing them with said small AIM listed electronics manufacturer. The likely movement on the share price would be stratospheric . When the statement turns out to be fantasy, then the CEO and the company are in serious trouble with the regulators
In Football terms Green and Ahmad claiming Adidas were losing Liverpool and Real Madrid and replacing them with Rangers is exactly the same
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chief-charles-green-set-1335458
The link above , with direct quotes from Ahmad claimed Rangers hoped to announce the deal within a week……..That was on September 21st…….23 weeks ago and not a peep since then, not surprisingly
Green makes statements on the future prospects of Rangers , such as the Adidas and Dallas Cowboys ones, which are wholly inappropriate for a CEO of a Plc
Malcolm Murray knows this and is doing nothing, at least publicly, to protect investors and potential investors. Not good enough Malcolm, not by a long way
tomtomaswell says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 16:14
14 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:59
By the way, I don’t agree with any of Sandy Jardine’s opinions either, but there must be other Ibrox figures for you to poke fun at who are not suffering from cancer.
———————————————————
Well I’m certainly in the firing line today
Another apology offered. I wasn’t having a pop at Sandy Jardine. I lost my sister to cancer last year so it’s not a disease I poke fun at. I was highlighting the poor journalism. The headline speaks of Whyte when in fact the article refers to Green.
—————
Cheers tomtom,
No apology needed for me, and demanding apologies is particularly naff anyway. No, I’m just a wee bit concerned about generalisations regarding your fellow Glaswegians who, by accident of birth, were born with a blue scarf. One of the many things I’ve learned during my decades of foreign exile is that generalisations don’t work.
Regarding Sandy, that could be construed as mocking the afflicted. Tabloid headlnes are tomorrow’s fish&chip paper today.
Sorry to hear about your sister.
BRTH
Absolutely brilliant.
Like a good novel I couldnt wait to get to the end. Hope you manage to get the 2 spares, and if you get an extra one please remember me.
I was listening to SSB tonight and a caller came on ,who regularly calls in with a bee in his bonnet .
His particular bee is ,what has the sfa/spl done with ragers old clubs £2.5m prize money for finishing in 2nd place last season .He usually wants it to be handed over to sevco for some strange reason but tonight he said that he heard Doncaster being asked the question on radio this week .
According to him Doncaster said that he could not answer because of the ongoing Dual contracts investigation .
What exactly in the LNS investigation has ragers old club got to do with the prize money won
There could be a couple of reasons
1. That ragers under CW may have fielded an ineligible player and therefore the SFA/SPL deem it won illegally
2.they are intending to declare they have fined the old club £2.5m for the dual contracts
If… 1. would this lead to other wronged clubs /people looking to get recourse from the creditors pot
If… 2. would this be part of the secretive 5 way agreement .
Or is there a more sinister story behind the missing £2.5m ?
My take on the missing £2.5m is that it was used to pay off certain football debts owing by old club to allow sevco to have the licence transferred .
The idea that CW approached the SFA/SPL in October last year to inform them that ragers had run out of money ,makes me think about my idea,as for me to be right ,it would mean that the SFA/SPL knew that CW would have been running ragers fc while insolvent and should have looked into where CW was getting the money to allow them to see out the season and finish in 2nd place to win such prize money .
Surely not ,Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
angus1983 says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 16:51
20 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 15:59
… the bitter wartime saying: the only good German is a dead German. A terrible thing to say really, since not all Germans were Nazis.
——
Indeed, perhaps only one of them had the formative idea of being a Nazi in the back of his mind at the time when that phrase was most commonly deployed. .
Of passing off-topic interest is that the first person recorded as definitely using the words “the only good Indian’s a dead Indian” was Theodore Roosevelt. They made him President a few years later. Playing to the gallery has evidently been an effective tactic for a while, then.
On a different tack … I don’t think tomtom should be given a hard time for popping at Jardine. Having cancer neither makes you immune from being a git, nor prohibits someone from pointing it out.
———
Aye, playin’ tae the gallery Angus, or as our dear friend Mr Cosgrove so aptly put it, the confirmatory bias.
Sorry, I totally disagree regarding Jardine. There are other characters, more rebust of health, who could be critiqued. If this blog is even perceived to be poking fun at a cancer sufferer’s pro-Rangers comments then it can just as well switch off and forget about notions of morality and integrity.
On decent Rangers fans.
of course there are, I know loads of them. As a rule they do not post on forums like FF or RM. However to be balanced there are a few Celtic sites I would not post on or want to read particularly either.
I would also say, and this is purely anecdotal, they are also mostly people who have drifted away from actually attending a lot of games. They would still call themselves Rangers fans, even if they are not regular attenders.
I think Ranger’s problem is that their poor element are particularly noisy and have become particularly nasty recently. This is not helped by the rabble rousing coming from the club, and that is exactly what it is. They are actively encouraging paranoia and a siege mentality.
As far as I am concerned, for them it is all about money. For the fans it may be some sort of socio-political togetherness, which they need. For Murray, Whyte and Green and their assorted cohorts it was and is about money.
It is all about manipulation and using people’s fears and prejudices to generate that income. It is always going to be, for the most part, the lowest common denominator fan who buys into that. The loud, the brash, the hate filled. They not only accept it, they find it uplifting, they are the people.
Decent fans, and in all honesty I think we all know them, care about the football and their team. Not the tribalism and hatred. Or the cynical manipulators who are feeding on it to their own end. Using their prejudice and bigotry in order to generate money for themselves.
Yes Mr Green and Mr Traynor, you. The really bad thing … you both know it.
This is only my own experience and opinion of course. Others might have totally different experiences.
On the possible demise of Rangers FC.
Personally …
I am of the opinion that Rangers were once, some decades ago, a great club in Scottish and world football.
I would like to see an end to the charade of the propped-up partially-reanimated corpse of this club being paraded around the country with the old club’s tattered hat on, purely for financial gain. It benefits no-one except those looking to line their pockets. They are simply flogging a Findus lasagne.
To this end, TRFC/RIFC should be allowed to die.
I would then like to see a genuine and acknowledged new club take on the name and start anew in uncontroversial circumstances, shedding all of the baggage associated with current and past incarnations.
If such a new club was able to work its way back to the top, I’d be the first to tip a hat to them.
In my mind, this is why I would welcome the death of the “Sevco” Rangers – not because I have any inherent hatred of old Rangers.
I believe that if this course had been followed last year, there would be no need for accusations of anti-Rangers feeling. Because there wouldn’t be any such feeling.
BRTH
A great tall tale. Next time Im in Pokesdown on Pway business Ill pop in on the offchance
On Rangers’ prize money from last year.
It should go to BDO, to be split amongst the creditors who lost tens of millions of pounds.
The team who “won” it are being liquidated. So anything due to them whether it be prize money or transfer income, should go to the liquidator.
I have no idea why a new entity, formed after the season was finished, thinks they have any claim on it.
dreddybhoy says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 18:48
Point taken.
So to be correct Sevco 5088 was formed in 29 March 2012. Therefore could have legitimately been the company that originally contracted Orlit.
However if that is the case how did that contract pass over to Sevco Scotland on 29 May 2012?
Decent Rangers fans?
I agree that they are a sizeable but quiet minority
barcabhoy says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 18:52
————————————–
I meant to say BB that it was your earlier post that put me in mind of this.
You are absolutely right, replace TRFC with any other listed company and these sort of statements by a CEO or press officer are liable to give investors and potential investors optimism/enthusiasm that is not rooted in anything factual.
If, heaven forfend, anything terrible were to happen to this fledgling business, then I do think the aforementioned FSA, SFO (maybe even the SFA? Stop laughing at the back) and the City of London Police would all be sitting up and taking notice at some of the pronouncements over the past 7-8 months.
You would think an ex-journalist would focus on facts, facts and facts, wouldn’t you? The only logical conclusion is that they are becoming fiscally desperate.
No matter how spurious a creditor claim – there must be one or two in the list of 276 RFC(IL) left high and dry – any prudent business would enter into dialogue with that creditor, usually pay what it admits is due under any contract and then negotiate over the disputed amount.
If I had invested in that business, I would be quietly looking to move my investment monies into something a bit more stable (Findus?).
TheBlackKnight TBK @THE_TBK Protected account
Erm… Just in case any one missed it. SFL members “straw pole” for reconstruction yes 28-1 no with 1 newclub not able to vote
This is why the media are struggling in Scotland with headlines like this;
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/213254-green-scottish-football-is-dying-and-were-getting-double-celtics-crowds/
Yet when you read this story the article makes it quite clear the headline is false with absolutely no foundation in fact. There is no mention in the article that Chas is factually incorrect it just mentions that this is what ‘he thinks’. Now it may be that this is what he thinks but he may also think that the Smurfs are real but this is hardly worthy of a headline unless they can link it in some way to Celtic or the SPL.
They just can’t bring themselves to tell the masses that Chas is wrong.
Then in the last paragraph they mention that there are four clubs that have reported more fans through the gate than last year but still no in depth analysis of figures to see how many the other clubs are down attendance wise.
This simply is not journalism in any way shape or form. It is headline grabbing nonsense.
So should the headline not read; ‘MAD GREEN TALKS NONSENSE AGAIN’.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
===============================
I read somewhere that Ross County have spoken to their fans and the overwhelming majority wanted to reject 12-12-18.
Am I correct in saying that if 2 SPL clubs reject that then it isn’t happening whatever the SFL clubs want.
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 19:34
———————————————
Have to disagree with you on this one Danish…
Tell me this, if some twisted bitter individual (There are many in this world I could mention but I don’t want to offend the PC monitors by making a comparison) contracted a terminal illness or died tomorrow, does that make then a nice, gentle individual? No, they are still the same parasite they were before the illness.
Sandy Jardine was one of the many individuals who started this whole “everyone is against us” movement, just read his interview with The Daily Record. He hates and will never forgive the players, the ones who reduced their wages to help the club and who subsequently left the club as per their right when left in a situation of uncertainty.
I don’t hate or dislike the guy, I don’t have feelings either way but I am sure of one thing, every time he opens his mouth he is open to the same critique as any other fit and healthy individual.
dentarthurdent42 says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 19:36
“It is all about manipulation and using people’s fears and prejudices to generate that income. It is always going to be, for the most part, the lowest common denominator fan who buys into that. The loud, the brash, the hate filled. They not only accept it, they find it uplifting, they are the people.”
——————
I agree with everything you said dentarthurdent42 and, in particular, the bit above.
Personally, it feels like thugs are hijacking my club and there is absolutely nothing we, the decent fans, can do because we don’t shout the loudest. It’s a depressing thought actually and one that I find hard to accept.
I dont believe there is any “missing” 2.5 mil. Rangers got it for finishing 2nd. Why i dont know but they did. it was in Duffers accounts.
Mr Green comparing crowds is again just silliness.
Celtic season tickets and match day tickets are not “discounted” by 33%. That means they are 50% more expensive than the Rangers equivalent.
In addition Celtic have already had 10 European / CL matches this season. 4 qualifiers and 6 CL group stage games. There are at least another 2 to be played, and paid for by the fans. His club have had none.
People have a limited amount of money to spend, whether it be on tickets, travelling to the matches or other expenses associated with going to a football match. The Celtic fans are spending their, the Rangers’ fans are spending theirs.
He is playing to the crowds, again. He is talking nonsense, again. He is twisting the facts, again. He is comparing apples with oranges, again.
denturthurdent42
I agree that the siege mentality stance sevco are taking is for money ,It is for the sevco fans money .When ragers went bust there was always going to be only one place any funds to start again were really going to come from and that was the fans .
Millionaires don’t become or stay millionaires by pumping money into football clubs ,especially Scottish football clubs in this day and age .
Revenue streams in the Scottish game are dwindling year on year and clubs have to cut their cloth and adapt to the changes ,mostly it’s losses across the board so why would an investor put their money into that for the long term .Sorry but the only investment clubs can really rely on is emotional investment .
So I could understand sevco’s strategy regarding building the siege mentality into the fans and this would explain the nonsense that it’s still the same club despite liquidation .The problem I have is that in their desperation to keep any sort of money coming in they are pandering more and more to the more radical of the fan base and festering a genuine hatred throughout the whole support .
This tells me all is not well at the club CGs business plan still seems to rely totally on the fans having a siege mentality and IMO if the share issue went as well as he has suggested this should not be the case .
They are well clear in the league ,they have near full houses every 2nd week and they have just floated on the AIM with alleged £22m being brought in .
Why do they feel the need to still play the siege card what more can they gain from doing so ,in fact it is now harming them to carry on with it .so why persist .
The latest rant from JT leaves me even more convinced all is not right ,in summary he has said to the fans ,do not listen to anyone except us as they are either liars ,bias or are sevco haters .This smacks of desperation and I mean last resort stuff .
The trouble with all this ,what will be left if the fans find out the club have been holding information back ,what then .
And I mean for all of Scottish football not just sevco 2012
jonnyod says:
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 20:42
+++++++++++++
Ya think? Funny thing is a Rangers fan on Clyde (and JD asked if he was a plant) was voicing the same kind of concerns.
Until The Rangers are run by decent honest businessmen they will not prosper.