A Question of Trust (Updated)

by Auldheid for the Scottish Football Monitor

On these pages at least there is a mounting lack of trust that the Scottish Football Association can or will govern our game in a fair and honest manner that recognises the principle of sporting integrity as paramount.

This mistrust is equalled only by the frustration at being unable to do anything to change the attitude and action of those at the SFA (and Leagues) responsible for that governance, a frustration compounded by the reluctance of the mainstream media to focus on the very issues of trust and integrity that concern us.

Back in early 2010 Celtic supporters represented by the Celtic Trust, various Association groups and individuals felt the same frustration and found a way to make their voices heard at the SFA – by using their club as a channel of communication to articulate their concerns.

A resolution was agreed and passed to Celtic to convey to the SFA and it was heeded by the club. There is no reason in why a similar conduit cannot be used by supporters groups of all clubs.

The enormity of the task, to get the majority of trusts and associations of all clubs to support this approach and give it sufficient weight, should not be underestimated, but in the interests of amplifying our voice, it is worth the effort.

Based on that 2010 experience, and on the discussion that has taken place on TSFM we have arrived at a (now amended) resolution below under the auspices of TSFM and which has been sent to all representative club supporters groups.

We believe one of the reasons the SFA and SPL were able to mislead (or simply fail to provide leadership) was because of the lack of clarity surrounding who should take provide that leadership and what principles should have been paramount.

The SFA were as tied to the commercial impact of Rangers demise as the SPL and indeed had to be reminded by the supporters of the importance of that sporting integrity. In the aftermath of the Rangers implosion, both the SFA and Leagues on the face of it appear still too commercially oriented to act in a way that balances commercialism and sporting principles.

We have attempted to address this in the resolution below. It also contains additional points raised already on TSFM and elsewhere. It is designed to assist in the widening of accountability in the sport.

We are not wed to the draft or the language. It is there to be revised but we hope it contains enough food for thought to be acceptable to the supporters groups and the clubs.

As recently as today, the SFA has published a Fans Charter. We welcome this development, and although it does not address our specific concerns with respect to governance it is a step in the right direction (http://www.fanscharter.com/).

Some of the principles published are;

  • Challenge is to make a National Fans Charter known, accepted and influential
  • Getting fan involvement in drafting charter important to acceptance,  influence and growing awareness.

We think our resolution is an even bigger step in the direction of those principles.


DRAFT Proposal for Representative Supporter Groups e.g. Trusts or Associations to send to their club to convey to the SFA/SPL/SFL Boards.

We [Insert Association/Trust name here] and in association with fans’ groups of other clubs, ask [Insert Club name here] to convey the following to the Scottish Football Association, SPL and SFL on our behalf.

1         We believe that the commercial viability of Scottish football at the professional level depends absolutely on the belief by supporters that sporting integrity is at the heart of all competition, and that those governing them and the rules by which they exercise governance, must hold sporting integrity as paramount above ALL other concerns. This belief can be summed up in the one word “trust” Without trust in those responsible for governing Scottish Football, commercial viability will suffer, to eventual ruin of our game.

2         There is a perception (accompanied by some dismay and anger) among football supporters throughout Scotland that those who were charged with upholding the rules of the SFA and SPL/SFL, only did so partially – and even then only because of the threat of supporter action if they did not.
3         There appears to be no distinction or order of hierarchy between those governing the game (the SFA) for whom we believe preservation of sporting integrity should be the prime purpose, and the leagues (SPL/SFL) for whom commercial aspects are (understandably) uppermost. As a result sporting integrity lost its primacy and it was left to supporters to insist on it.

4         Consequently many Scottish football supporters have lost confidence that the Scottish Football Association will fulfil their purpose of safeguarding the sport. Indeed their silence following the revelation of a 5 way agreement last summer on the future of the liquidated Glasgow Rangers has exacerbated this loss of confidence in the SFA’s ability to administer professional football in Scotland in a manner that reflects their duty of care to all aspects of the game and everyone who takes part in it.

5         Decisions and deals have been taken by the SFA, SPL, and SFL without any public scrutiny. The operations and decisions of those bodies lack transparency and they are not accountable in any recognisable form to the football supporters throughout the land, without whom there is no professional association.


6         In our view this loss of trust can only begin to be restored by the SFA publically committing  itself to:

(i)                  The production of an unequivocal “mission” statement of purpose/intent which will state (in whatever form they may exist) that maintaining sporting integrity is and will always be their prime goal. The statement will also describe how they intend to ensure this principle is followed in their interactions with Leagues and Clubs, particularly when commercial decisions that might undermine sporting integrity are implemented by the Leagues. (e.g. In the case of TV contracts, sponsorship or any significant league reconstruction).

(ii)                Further: in recognition of the inability of some individuals to provide leadership during the past year simply because of conflicts of interest, take steps to remove any such conflict, and in doing so enable the organisation and its office bearers to function unhindered.

(iii)               In the interests of transparency, publish the “five point agreement” that allowed The Rangers entry into SFL and SFA, provide a supporting rationale for entering into the agreement, and confirm that the terms have been or are being complied with.

Along with other trust restoring measures (see attached Annex) these steps should mark the end of the continuing lack of trust in the authorities.

7.         We appreciate that it may be the start of next season before there is any visible evidence of our concerns being addressed although the statement of purpose/intent by the SFA (i) and action at (ii) can be readily put in place – would be a welcome early development.

8.         All club’s supporters groups will be watching closely for signs of progress before advising our members and our other supporters if we feel the necessary trust restoring steps are being taken and advise that they can purchase their season books for 2013/14 knowing that sporting integrity is once more absolutely paramount in Scottish football to the betterment of our game.

Signed __________________________ on behalf of

[Insert supporter trust/association name here]

Date ______________

Annex to resolution.

The following is a list of other measures that the SFA should take in order to satisfy supporters that they should be entrusted with the job of governing Scottish football.

  1. To increase transparency and accountability in a meaningful way – possibly via creation of an active supporter’s liaison group drawn from representative supporter groups of each club. Its remit, using an agreed consultative mechanism to generate dialogue, to hear supporters’ concerns and consider them before key decisions are made. In an industry that is totally interdependent it is folly to exclude a major stakeholder from key decision making.
  2. A tightening of and an annual and independent audit of the process for granting UEFA Club (FFP) and National Club licensing reporting to the representative supporter liaison group as well as other SFA members to ensure all clubs are living within their means.
  3. Introduction of a rule requiring all Scottish football club directors to declare any financial interest/shareholding in any club other than their own and to rule that disposition of those shares/interest should be a part of a fit and proper assessment of a person’s qualification to hold office at an association club.
  4. A feasibility review of Scottish refereeing to assess the potential for creating a professional service that the SFA provide to the leagues by recruiting and training referees, but where the leagues monitor and reward consistently good performances to an agreed standard. Given the sums dependent on referee decisions, the current system must change for everyone’s sake including the referees.
  5. A full explanation about the circumstances (including dates) surrounding the award of a UEFA Club licence to Rangers in spring/summer of 2011 when there was unpaid social tax that prime facie did not meet the conditions for deeming the granting of a licence acceptable under the UEFA FFP rules on unpaid tax (the wee tax bill).

The [Insert Club Name here] Trust/Supporters Association asks [Insert Club Name here] to convey our concerns above with their provenance to the appropriate authorities as they see fit viz:

    • Football Authority in Scotland (The SFA)
    • Europe (UEFA)
    • Scottish Government (on the issue of accountability to supporters and       proper checks and balance governance.)
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Tom Byrne

About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,893 thoughts on “A Question of Trust (Updated)


  1. Bragging Rights:

    Just a thought on the above and various posts on how atmospheres have changed in pubs and how the subject of Rangers is not up for discussion. Park to the side all the stuff about the financial turmoil, old or new and the word that rhymes with vile and begins with B etc associated with the team playing at Ibrox.

    Part of the enjoyment and banter with your mate a work or down the pub was being able to rib each other, have bragging rights on your teams performance over the other. That will be happening in Dundee and Edinburgh and elsewhere where SPL teams are playing or those with local rivalry in the lower leagues. Rangers fans at the moment, even whilst top of SFL3 have no bragging rights. They are not going to be waxing lyrical to anyone about how well their team is playing with supporters of other teams especially if your team is in the SPL. If you were to ask you would be considered to be taking the P. I have had one of those conversations with my Rangers supporting friends over dinner when you ask ” how was the game today?” I’m sure they are feeling that I’m trying my best to be nice and only semi interested, you know what I mean ! they are right because inside I’m laughing. So it’s a no wonder they keep their heads down and don’t want to discuss it, they have nothing to Brag or boast about, those rights have long gone but will I suspect return at some point and the pubs will return to normal,


  2. jonnyod says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 20:42

    For me, you get close to the issue that concerns me. Why is it that, probably, two, very fair proportions of the adult population in this country have such very differing views on the same series of events. One portion seems to be discussing the issues, sometimes it gets a bit tenuous, but it’s a debate and a discussion! The other portion are becoming so introvert in their thinking, reasoning by rote, they need JT and Green to position the compass. It is from a bygone era, so out of context. But the mechanisms for social commentary are mute and complicit – why? And why are they all getting away with it. Every day we let it pass and develop, we allow it to get worse.

    Does it take someone to actually find CG, a’la’ partridge with the leather crackers on in front of a mirror before they say, ‘hang on a minute…’.

    And while we are all at it – what are others doing in their back gardens, what rubbish is being buried out of the limelight whilst Traynor goes on his rants. Putting up with The Rangers in this torpor does nothing for anyone.

    All so sad. Really.


  3. madbhoy24941 says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 20:25
    18 1 Rate This
    Danish Pastry says:

    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 19:34
    ———————————————

    Have to disagree with you on this one Danish…

    Tell me this, if some twisted bitter individual (There are many in this world I could mention but I don’t want to offend the PC monitors by making a comparison) contracted a terminal illness or died tomorrow, does that make then a nice, gentle individual? No, they are still the same parasite they were before the illness.

    Sandy Jardine was one of the many individuals who started this whole “everyone is against us” movement, just read his interview with The Daily Record. He hates and will never forgive the players, the ones who reduced their wages to help the club and who subsequently left the club as per their right when left in a situation of uncertainty.

    I don’t hate or dislike the guy, I don’t have feelings either way but I am sure of one thing, every time he opens his mouth he is open to the same critique as any other fit and healthy individual.
    ———–

    Madbhoy,
    I’ve disagreed with everything he’s said and his interpretation of events, and still do. It’s a no-brainer. But personally, I still rate humanity and compassion above football politics – or any politics.


  4. I feel as though I should preface this post with ‘completely off topic, I know, but’ but I check again and, yes, this is the Scottish Football Monitor so I offer the following with no apology for not mentioning Rangers.

    The football club that I support allows free access to people under 16 for all league games. A fantastic initiative to engage young people with football. My 6 and 4 year old boys have their own glossy season books, of which they are immensely proud.

    This week the club announced arrangements for the Ramsden’s Cup Final ticket allocation. Season ticket holders have priority booking. This includes ‘under 16’ book holders.

    Take a bow, Partick Thistle.


  5. Others here understand the markets way better than I do. However, the law of supply and demand applies, and has done since (at least) the Neolithic era. Hence my cynicism about the first day trades. Somebody paid 77p for shares they could have bought (in virtually limitless numbers), for 70p, the previous afternoon. Somebody was ramping the share price, and continues to do so. This will not end well, although my powers do not extend to predicting the precise means of the end.


  6. newshedenvy says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 22:21

    ======================

    Not off topic at all.

    Agreed and agreed.

    Well done the harry rags.

    Fan Tastic.


  7. Got to agree about the hype. It seems that some are getting over excited about the time line for Newco dying.

    No hiding- who on here thinks that Sevco will go under because of this threat of a winding up order from Singapore?


  8. Sorry, I kind of finished before I’d ended. My opinion is, the first day trades will be seen as vital to the story, when the book comes to be written. By literate Scottish sports journalists. Anybody out there….?


  9. dentarthurdent42 says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 22:40
    2 0 Rate This
    newshedenvy says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 22:21

    ======================

    Not off topic at all.

    Agreed and agreed.

    Well done the harry rags.

    Fan Tastic.

    ===========================

    Fan Tastic indeed. My two very young boys know little about what’s going on in front of them on the pitch but there’s one thing they do know, they support Partick Thistle. It is, without doubt, a very clever marketing ploy.


  10. wottpi says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 17:49
    A NEW QUESTION I HADN’T THOUGHT ABOUT
    If Orlit were contracted before 29 May, possibly on a gentleman’s agreement (as per the Mr Green version of events) why should TRIFC Plc or TRFCLtd now be landed with a bill for possibly £400k plus or indeed be facing the threat of legal action?? Should Charlie and his mates not be paying this out of their own pockets.
    Could it be that Charlie has done the old switcheroo and effectively promised to pay his old pal Mr Chan Fook Meng for Orlit’s services on the basis he would honour the gentleman’s agreement if he was unsuccessful in gaining control of Rangers, but as soon as it was possible after gaining control he would draw up a proper contract so that Orlit could be paid from a company that didn’t actually exist at the time of commissioning Orlit for their services?
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    wottpi
    Don`t think it’s that complicated
    We are dealing with Spivs. People who are creatures of habit
    When faced with a legitimate debt Spivs liquidate the co
    Sevco 5088 applied for liquidation on 15 Jan2013 according to Companies House
    The switcheroo may simply an invoice for £400k sent by Orlit to Sevco5088 which bounced straight back because “unfortunately”Sevco5088 have applied for liquidation

    Having said that
    These Spivs are only being overseen by 3 non exec Directors who can`t possibly keep on top of them day to day
    So they will be up to all sorts of dodges to milk TRFC
    Like pretending this is a real debt to the RIFC Board when it is no more than a wheeze to siphon £400k out of RIFC


  11. Dont want to appear as an old bitter sod but its why i will be keeping aneye on them.:

    This is where I come from as regards Rangers (this wee snapshot from the well website) 70s here. Oh and by the way SFA imposed zero sanctions on them.

    The early 70s saw the inception of a British Cup, sponsored by Texaco and proved to be as popular with this generation of ‘Well fans as the floodlit friendlies had been in the decades before. Motherwell enjoyed some memorable matches in the competition, including beating Stoke, Gordon Banks and all and more famously Spurs, with their array of stars including Jennings, Mullery, Peters and Chivers.

    The next change at Fir Park saw a segregation fence erected in the middle of the covered terracing. This was brought about following a pitch invasion by Rangers fans during a 5-3 win for the Ibrox side, after Motherwell had led 2-0.
    Now here’s my problem and why I keep on their case to this day. The cops stood about petrified and the Gers went to the SFA and guess what. No problem. NotGuilty.


  12. Is there a Trophy for the biggest crowd ?? Just asking.


  13. Regarding Sandy Jardine’s “comments” – from what I read on t’internet, I thought they were quotes from a while back?

    I don’t buy any newspaper and only go by what I have read online, so apologies if I’m well off the mark here.

    Sandy is a Rangers legend. And Sandy loves Rangers. I suspect his heart is talking when he made those statements as he’s also a fan. I’m not dismissing what he said, as he did say it.

    Those players who left were thinking of their own careers/future/family. Who can blame them for that?

    I think Sandy is wrong in his opinion.

    All that said, I loved watching Sandy play in a blue jersey – Scotland or Rangers – and I wish him well.


  14. What Green does not know amongst the “history” is the episodes like the well one that will turn the vast majority of clubs agin him. I exclude Celtic. Its probably happened and is happening elswhere.


  15. dukinfisgusted says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 23:49
    1 0 Rate This

    Is there a Trophy for the biggest crowd ?? Just asking.

    ==================================================

    Bonus points for transposing initial letters? Or dropping erroneous capital letters into the middle of a sentence?

    Don’t think so.


  16. Jardine and McGrain

    Come on will hear nothing against either of any ilk.

    They saved Scotland so many times its not true.

    Let the man say what he likes.


  17. newshedenvy says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 00:08
    1 0 Rate This
    dukinfisgusted says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 23:49
    1 0 Rate This

    Is there a Trophy for the biggest crowd ?? Just asking.

    ==================================================

    Bonus points for transposing initial letters? Or dropping erroneous capital letters into the middle of a sentence?

    Don’t think so.
    ———————————–
    Eh ???


  18. Carl31 (@C4rl31) says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 12:32

    jockybhoy says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 10:59

    “…let’s just look at the meat of the statement (99% of it is surely horse):”
    ———————————————-

    …its ‘horse-something‘, but not meat!
    ———————————————–

    …………and that from the horses mouth that is Jockybhoy.

    Ah’ll get ma racing silks. Pfffft.


  19. whullie says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 01:05

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    I went into Aldi's yesterday & noticed all Findus products were 2 for 1…
    went back today…they were evens ?


  20. Just for fun I rang my broker today in Ireland and asked him about buying shares in RIFC. on the basis that they had major international deals coming up re sponsorship etc. His response and I quote “Are you off your head”.


  21. bangordub 02:27
    I would kick your broker to the kerb ,he obviously knows nowt about the financial game
    expected 100m turnover without TV revenue
    500m worldwide fan base
    new tier being built on =10,000 more customers
    3 billionaires on board
    city investment vastly oversubscribed
    move to EPL through sex discrimination act
    world record breaking crowds every second week
    Top ECA members prepared to pay flights and hotel bills to ensure CG comes to meetings

    It’s surely your broker who is aff his heed ! 🙂


  22. theglen2012 says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 23:55
    12 2 Rate This

    Regarding Sandy Jardine’s “comments” – from what I read on t’internet, I thought they were quotes from a while back?
    ————

    True Glenn, the articles seemed pretty much a re-hash of previous statements, except the article detailing the illness.


  23. Re the £400,000 bill
    I hear that it is for sourcing investment for the CG takeover ,there have been two payments made for £200,000 each ,could it be an £800,000 bill (4 x 200,000).
    Why sevco 2012 fc have been landed with this bill seems strange but what I find stranger is that CG seems to have told the press that there was not a contract ,it was a gentleman’s (stop laughing at the back ) .
    Is this normal practice for a PLC company and are the ,NEDs and shareholders ok with this ?


  24. jonnyod says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 08:34
    1 0 Rate This

    Re the £400,000 bill
    I hear that it is for sourcing investment for the CG takeover ,there have been two payments made for £200,000 each ,could it be an £800,000 bill (4 x 200,000).
    Why sevco 2012 fc have been landed with this bill seems strange but what I find stranger is that CG seems to have told the press that there was not a contract ,it was a gentleman’s (stop laughing at the back ) .
    Is this normal practice for a PLC company and are the ,NEDs and shareholders ok with this ?
    ——–

    Looks lke McCoist is beginning to wonder too:

    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/ally-mccoist-welcomes-scrutiny-of-finances-1-2782662


  25. DP
    WOW
    Looks like Ally is not quite convinced ,could this “gentleman’s agreement” situation be the reason for the Guidi piece this week of a fall out between CG and Malcolm Murray


  26. Re the Herald article, the following part jumped out at me.

    “On the Orlit dispute, he added: “It’s not my remit but, over the last year, I certainly know more about the financial situation within the club than most managers. What I’ve been told is, it’s not a great issue. I don’t really know what’s normal in business transactions but I believe there was a dispute and the dispute is just about at an agreement.”

    Given the difficulties the Club found itself in its only natural that AM would take a greater interest in its financial affairs, and that would presumably include taking some independent soundings, triangulating

    In this case it appears (from the quote) that AM is reliant upon what he is being told [by those running the Club] as to what is happening in all matters financial.

    All is well then?


  27. Long Time Lurker says:

    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:07

    Apologies – the article in question is from the Scotsman and not the Herald.


  28. LTL
    I think AM should demand to know the names of all the Gentlemen CG has agreements with .
    When they say £400,000 is an insignificant sum ,are there any Significant sums owed to Gentlemen out there


  29. Long Time Lurker says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:15
    0 0 Rate This
    Long Time Lurker says:

    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:07

    Apologies – the article in question is from the Scotsman and not the Herald.
    ——–

    Drat LTL, and here was I just limbering up for a bit of early-morning pedantry 😀


  30. newshedenvy says:
    Friday, February 8, 2013 at 22:21
    118 0 Rate This
    I feel as though I should preface this post with ‘completely off topic, I know, but’ but I check again and, yes, this is the Scottish Football Monitor so I offer the following with no apology for not mentioning Rangers.

    The football club that I support allows free access to people under 16 for all league games. A fantastic initiative to engage young people with football. My 6 and 4 year old boys have their own glossy season books, of which they are immensely proud.

    This week the club announced arrangements for the Ramsden’s Cup Final ticket allocation. Season ticket holders have priority booking. This includes ‘under 16′ book holders.

    Take a bow, Partick Thistle.
    ————-

    Uplifting post newshedenvy. How can anyone not admire this club. Your post was also a ray of light in during, what for me a least, were a particularly discouaging few hours on this forum.


  31. More to the point on the relationship between Messrs Green and Murray, why was Malcolm Murray’s directorship of RFCL terminated just before Christmas?


  32. Danish Pastry says:

    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:31

    Limbering up is good – prevents mussle strain 🙂

    I get the feeling we are going to be in for a busy few weeks. LNS cannot be to far away. I also get the sense from Alex Tomo and PM that there is more to come out of the woodwork. Is Orkit just the first of many more stories?


  33. Being perfectly serious, the “the gentleman’s agreement” thing would actually make sense. Doesn’t make it true but it does explain things quite nicely.

    If Charles Green had such an agreement with an associate, but no actual contract with the club and the supplier sent an invoice the club may well have replied that they were not paying it, or were willing to pay less.

    The supplier could then quite easily have been upset by this and threatened legal action, to which the club may well have replied along the lines of “bring it on”.

    It would also explain a rift in the board. Especially if the bill was for services to the PLC (as part of the floatation) but it was sent to the Ltd Co. They are being treated as the same thing by Mr Green et al, in spite of the fact they aren’t

    Like I said that doesn’t make it true but it does seem to fit. Only if Mr Green is arrogant and thinks he can do what he wants obviously.


  34. Long Time Lurker says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:56
    0 0 Rate This
    Danish Pastry says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:31
    Limbering up is good – prevents mussle strain
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I’ll leave it to Danish. For the exercise….


  35. Ally clears it up!

    On the Orlit dispute, he added: “It’s not my remit but, over the last year, I certainly know more about the financial situation within the club than most managers. What I’ve been told is, it’s not a great issue. I don’t really know what’s normal in business transactions but I believe there was a dispute and the dispute is just about at an agreement.
    “That’s what I’ve been told. I’m not involved with it personally and I’m certainly not hands on in something like that. From what I’ve been told, it’s maybe been completely blown out of proportion. I certainly hope that would be the case.”

    Does anyone understand this guff?.


  36. dentarthurdent42 says:

    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:58

    To which I would only add that the debt is therefore Charlie’s and in no way TRFC’s. And I suspect Malcolm Murray and Mr McCoist agree with me…


  37. chipsandblog says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 00:49
    4 0 Rate This
    shields2012 i ask again.

    WHERE DIID THE SPL MONEY LAST SEASON FOR THE CLUB WHO FINISHED SECOND GO.

    you need to answer.

    ANSWER
    ——————–

    I’ve no idea and don’t actually know why you’re asking me?

    Btw, 198 TD’s for my post yesterday must be some kind of record?


  38. So. Mr Green ‘owes’ his pal 400k. The bill for this is levelled at TRFC. TRFC quite rightly dispute this bill as it was for business carried out before the club came into being and it was also a ‘Verbal Agreement’ between 2 mates. In order to prevent any more negative publicity TRFC, under instruction from Mr Green, and to avoid a WUO pay the 400k bill. Mr Greens pal says ‘Thank you very much’ and trousers the proceeds. All he has to do now to pay his pal Mr Green his cut of the ill gotten gains. VIOLA. 400k out the door whilst you blink.Nice work if you can get it.

    This is purely hypithetical on my behalf off course.


  39. torrejohnbhoy says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 10:13
    ————————–
    Looks to me like it means a series of caveats in case of things shortly going pear shaped, i.e.:

    “IT’S NOT MY REMIT but, over the last year, I certainly know more about the financial situation within the club than most managers. WHAT I’VE BEEN TOLD IS, it’s not a great issue. I DON’T REALLY KNOW what’s normal in business transactions but I BELIEVE there was a dispute and the dispute is just about at an agreement.
    “THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN TOLD. I”M NOT INVOLVED WITH IT PERSONALLY and I’M CERTAINLY NOT HANDS ON in something like that. From what I”VE BEEN TOLD, it’s MAYBE been completely blown out of proportion. I CERTAINLY HOPE that would be the case.”


  40. Long Time Lurker says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:56
    2 0 Rate This
    Danish Pastry says:

    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 09:31

    Limbering up is good – prevents mussle strain

    I get the feeling we are going to be in for a busy few weeks. LNS cannot be to far away. I also get the sense from Alex Tomo and PM that there is more to come out of the woodwork. Is Orkit just the first of many more stories?
    ————

    Ha, the good old limber! Didn’t want to strain my pedantry muscles 🙂

    Yes. I was reading up on my Chan Fook Meng the other day. Seems a very competant and qualified man. Lots of directorships and legal dealing, although you’ve no way of really knowing.

    However, he’s profiled on Unilegal, I’m not sure how current this is. Apologies if posted earlier:

    http://www.unilegal.com.sg/index.html

    Then there’s his directorship of (I kid you not) the amusingly-named, ‘Green Glory International Ltd ‘ 🙂

    http://www.cdrex.com/chan-fook-meng/1014553.html

    But surely another Fook Meng and possibly something to do with Green energy, you’d think …


  41. shield2012 says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 10:30

    WHERE DIID THE SPL MONEY LAST SEASON FOR THE CLUB WHO FINISHED SECOND GO.

    ============================

    The club who finished second was in administration at the time, so any money it earned should have gone to the administrator, that should then have been used to pay the creditors or agree a CVA with them.

    Given that the club failed in doing that then went into liquidation then all of it’s assets should go to the liquidator to pay as much of it’s debt as possible. That’s only fair to the creditors who lost out.

    If for some reason it has not been paid then I assume BDO will be acting to get it, as is their job.

    Does anyone feel any differently to that.


  42. Looks to me like it means a series of caveats in case of things shortly going pear shaped, i.e.:

    “IT’S NOT MY REMIT but, over the last year, I certainly know more about the financial situation within the club than most managers. WHAT I’VE BEEN TOLD IS, it’s not a great issue. I DON’T REALLY KNOW what’s normal in business transactions but I BELIEVE there was a dispute and the dispute is just about at an agreement.
    “THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN TOLD. I”M NOT INVOLVED WITH IT PERSONALLY and I’M CERTAINLY NOT HANDS ON in something like that. From what I”VE BEEN TOLD, it’s MAYBE been completely blown out of proportion. I CERTAINLY HOPE that would be the case.”

    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    I think if I were Mr McCoist with a sizeable shareholding and being very close to Mr Green’s ear, I would want to know exactly what was going on. In fact I would DEMAND to know…………


  43. dentarthurdent42 says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 11:41
    =======================================
    I know you’re not the 1st to ask but you were the handiest to reference: Rangers 2nd placement money thing was reported ages ago, e.g.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9392758/SPL-withholds-placement-money-to-Rangers-to-settle-Ibrox-outfits-outstanding-debts-to-member-clubs.html

    This story says it was only £900,000 not £2.5 m quoted elsewhere here. Not been able to check it the money was used as promised by the SPL. Got to shoot off.


  44. So basically the SPL created an artificial preference for certain creditors.

    Maybe that’s one of the things BDO will be looking into.

    In effect the SPL simply didn’t pay the money due. What they did with it is largely irrelevant, if it is still outstanding then it is still outstanding.

    If I refused to pay money I owe and instead gave that money to other people I would still owe the money. Why do the SPL think they are any different.


  45. I am interested in the prize money last season because CG keeps asking why he has not received it. I assume he did not receive it because it went to the club that finished second last season, which was not TRFC. Doncaster seemed cagey when asked about this money.

    Do the SFA publish their accounts ?


  46. should have typed

    Do the SPL publish their accounts ?


  47. While the 11 other clubs are already in receipt of their cash, Rangers’ money has been put aside by the SPL in order to settle outstanding debts.
    The biggest beneficiaries will be Hearts, who are due £800,000 from the £1.5 million sale of Lee Wallace’s transfer last summer. The balance is due later this month, at which point the Edinburgh club can seek restitution from the SPL.
    Celtic are also owed £40,337 but have yet to make a claim for it. Dundee United are also due over £30,000 and it is understood that they have applied to have that money diverted into their account.

    so the SPL settled RFC debts ? I thought TRFC offered to pay Hearts for Wallace at a reduced rate ?

    where is the truth here ?


  48. Basically if BDO get the money it is further confirmation that it was the club which died.

    Doncaster is between a rock and a hard place. Whoever gets that money is in the eyes of Scottish football the Rangers of last season.

    They tried to get around that by not giving it to either.


  49. I thought Sevco were only given a licence to play this season with the agreement that they settled all football debts of oldco? Why are the spl paying their debts?? That prize money should pay other creditors shouldn’t it??


  50. It was great to see some young boys playing today, this is what we want to see on a more regular basis. If Celtic do have to downgrade over the coming seasons then more of that won’t disappoint me too much, of course you need better players to compete in Europe but hey, you have to live within your means. Shame ICT didn’t play to potential as it might have been a cracker, good entertainment never the less.


  51. Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 10:30

    I don’t think you are too far off which is why I raised the issue of timing and the arrangement of Orlits commission last night.

    The bottom line is, even if they are cash rich, should Rangers fans (and more so as others have pointed out – the non execs) not be asking why the club, today, is apparently paying invoices and getting drawn into legal wrangles (along with the PR fall out) that are the result of historical pre-acquisition activites and agreements.

    I am sure there is plenty that could be done with £400k plus as opposed to just hand the club’s money over to one of Charlie’s mates on his say so.

    Maybe Chairman Murray or one of the clubs accountants or lawyers have caught on to the scam and that’s why the last two invoices have been bumped, thus the apparent reported fall out between Green and Murray.

    Like most things around the financial shennanigans around Ibrox, something just doesn’t smell right.


  52. I’m sorry but for a club with a £7m players wage bill and predicting losses of £3.5m this year £400k is a lot of money. No matter what they say.


  53. TallBoy Poppy (@TallBoyPoppy) says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 11:23
    3 0 Rate This
    Danish Pastry says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 10:45
    ——————————————————————————————
    Some more reading for you Danish. Last three posts. Make any sense?
    http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/some-more-info-re-orlit-enterprises-mr-chans-connections-with-rangers-mr-green/comment-page-2/#comment-48220
    ———–

    Hadn’t seen that. So many connections, or is it trails? I can’t even find a website for Orlit but I found an address which is next door to, or in the same building as, Unilegal. Perhaps irrelevant though, if CW and his crowd are still moving in the shadows. I have been wondering if the rumpus about the prize money and the player contacts is because that was Green’s ‘Champions League cash’. And just as Whyte ran out of dosh, perhaps we’re seeing Green in the same situation? What speaks against that are the past posts from knowledgable people on here and the emphatic assurances from Ibrox that the club is NOT in financial distress.


  54. Just watched Peter Lawell being interviewed. What a dignified and intellegent man he seems to be. Contrast his demeanour, or in fact that of any other SPL Chairman, with that of Mr Green.

    He seems to be constantly running around like a beggar all over the world meeting with insignificant little groups and spouting blatant lies in order to keep his wee team relevant and raise pennies to keep the wolf from TRFC’s door. All the while looking for innovative ways to fleece the poor souls again and siphon the dough oot the back door from under their very noses…Just my view.


  55. Peter Lawwell is a first rate businessman and CEO, he is surrounded by top people.

    Rangers have not had a board to even remotely compare with Celtic’s for decades.


  56. A couple of observations on the WUO

    When you look at these quotes from Sally in relation to the alleged Orlit debt –
    “IT’S NOT MY REMIT but…………………WHAT I’VE BEEN TOLD IS…………………………I DON’T REALLY KNOW……………..but I BELIEVE………………THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN TOLD………………I”M NOT INVOLVED WITH IT PERSONALLY and I’M CERTAINLY NOT HANDS ON…………………From what I”VE BEEN TOLD, it’s MAYBE been………………I CERTAINLY HOPE…………………” – he could just as easily been speaking about his management of the football team

    Secondly, I don’t believe this nonsense about a gentlemen’s agreement. For a start, by its very nomenclature, a gentlemen’s agreement is one between two gentlemen, not between one gentleman and a Yorkshire spiv or for that matter between a gentleman and a fledgling football club.

    But even we still persist with the notion that it started life as a gentlemen’s agreement, it can no longer be one since a gentlemen’s agreement is one which requires nothing in writing and no lawyers because both parties know that their word is their bond and the agreement will be honoured without fuss.

    A gentlemen’s agreement does not lead to imtemperate, defensive outbursts from a blustering PR man who should know better, spouting nonsense like “it’s all been agreed apart from the wording….”.

    That’s like saying RFC(IL) reached agreement with all of their creditors apart from actually paying them.

    This is all unravelling nicely; “Fook meng once, fook you; Fook Meng twice, fook the fans, Fook Meng three times, aw fook…”


  57. Scotzine ‏@scotzine
    Just came into some info on CG will need to do a bit of confirmation before publishing as its a stoater. #whyte-esq

    Scotzine ‏@scotzine
    As I said just need to check up on a few things BUT should be published tonight. Is he really the businessman he says he is or claims to be?


  58. Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 14:59
    8 0 i
    Rate This

    Just watched Peter Lawell being interviewed. What a dignified and intellegent man he seems to be. Contrast his demeanour, or in fact that of any other SPL Chairman, with that of Mr Green.

    He seems to be constantly running around like a beggar all over the world meeting with insignificant little groups and spouting blatant lies in order to keep his wee team relevant and raise pennies to keep the wolf from TRFC’s door. All the while looking for innovative ways to fleece the poor souls again and siphon the dough oot the back door from under their very noses…Just my view
    =========

    I heard recently that there’s a collection plate at each of Mr Charles’ events. This Shirley can’t be the case.


  59. The £7m wage bill. Do we have a source for that?

    Just wondering, as word in the Scotsman today is that persons like K Kyle are apparently on £500 basic a week rather than the several thousand expected. Not sure if I believe that, mind, unless K Kyle is one-track-Rangers-minded – or just stupid – or his win bonus is £x000.


  60. Big D J still deluded !!! The £400000 bill will be paid if it is the correct amount!!!! ‘it is only the amount that is being challenged’ can someone remind me what started the BTC trouble??? Why can’t they just pay the bills and get on with the football? DOH!! Does anybody think they may not have the money 🙂 🙂 🙂 ………. As if!!


  61. Re: Melbourne Q&A
    A few points such as claiming a internationalist who is sponsored $25 million a year who offered to play for nothing….yet he wouldn’t name said player. Few statements like that annoyed me but on the whole impressed with the man. He seem to have really got into the role and the fact he sees that everyone else in Scottish football hates us might work in our favour as he’s up for battle
    _____________
    more moon beams from charlie to the gullible

    must have been a hard choice between PSG and the third division in scotland for beckam


  62. Another thing … Mr Green was quoted from Australia saying that a kit sponsorship deal would be announced “later today” earlier this week.

    Any sign of such an announcement? Shurely not another bit of a fib?


  63. Shame of the £6m wage bill
    Gers are not value for money

    ALL OR NOTHING… Albion hero Brian Allison celebrates winner
    From DAVID FRIEL at Forthbank
    Published: 08th October 2012
    24

    FOOTBALL players don’t set their own wages — but they need to justify them.
    After this shameful defeat, Rangers’ flops should be embarrassed to pick up their bulging pay packets.

    Ibrox owner Charles Green was in a chatty mood when he met a Gers fans’ group on Thursday.

    He spoke of new kit deals, stadium sponsorship and the opening of a rooftop cafe in Govan.

    But the most startling revelation was the size of the current Ibrox wage bill. This time last season, it was £30million. Now it’s down to a ‘meagre’ £6m.


  64. Clarifying his use of “I”, Green added: “I am Rangers. I’m running that club, I’m making the decisions and I’m going to protect that club with my life. No-one’s ever going to abuse it.
    “I’ve started to catch Rangers-itis. What I do see now is an opportunity to finish it and take it back to greatness.
    “I won’t leave before Champions League music’s playing at Ibrox. But I’ve already changed my mind once, so it may be I end up changing my mind until we win it (the Champions League).”
    Green says the player wage bill has been cut from £27m to under £7m and that Rangers are in rude health. He added: “The club has got cash, it’s still got no debts. In terms of the monthly requirements for cash, we can’t run out of money.”


  65. depends who he is speaking to
    whats a mill here and there
    insignificant probably


  66. plenty of empty seats at ibrox today
    looks like reality is setting in


  67. andy says:
    Saturday, February 9, 2013 at 16:09
    ===================

    If he has all this money, why is he having to go to here there and everywhere to try and raise some more?

    Have any of these trips bore fruit for him?

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