A Roman God, a New Year, a Paycheque a Sports Jacket and that thing called football!

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A Roman God, a New Year, a Paycheque a Sports Jacket and that thing called football!

Guest Blog by Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan

Good Morning,

Can I start by wishing everyone who reads this blog a happy, peaceful and prosperous 2013.

In a few weeks’ time a couple of working class lads from Walsall and Wolverhampton will receive a reasonably sizeable cheque through the door. The money will be entirely expected and meticulously accounted for. A similar cheque will have arrived last year, and both will expect the process to repeat itself automatically this time next year.

The sum concerned will be sizeable—many thousands of pounds— and does not come from any insurance policy, institutional pension plan or other type of financially regulated investment. Further, in order to receive a similar amount next year, the two men will have to do precisely nothing! The money will simply come automatically!

Magic eh?

Well no—not really.

You see Neville and James ( for that is what they are called ) earned this money many years ago by completing a job of work, and they have been getting paid for the same job year in and year out ever since!

Except that you don’t know them as Nevile and James! No you may know them as Jim Lea ( who? you may say ) and Noddy Holder (aka Neville John Holder MBE ) the co author of that perennial Christmas classic “Merry Christmas Everybody”.

These two clever boys came up with their “pension” song by making a Christmas cracker out of tunes they had written and discarded in the past. Lea’s chords from years before provided the tune for the verses, while an earlier rejected composition of Holder’s became the chorus, and in this way it was the past work of both men that secured their future—even back in 1974!

As the song is played to death on Radio, in clubs, in pubs, in shops, on TV and everywhere else at Christmas, the New Year always brings a cheque of sizeable proportions for Messrs Lea and Holder.

However there were four members of Slade and not two, I hear you say!

Whilst that is correct, not every member of the band shares the royalties for ever more, with only the actual composers receiving the big bucks year on year — unless of course the gang of four agreed otherwise between themselves – as sometimes happens—but often doesn’t — in bands and other artistic collaborations!

And that, dear reader, neatly takes me to the current topic of the day on this here planet!!! The reconstruction, reorganisation and profit sharing in Scottish Fitba!!!

It strikes me that the SFA, SPL and SFL all want to come up with their own version of the pension song or product — Something that will make future performances interesting and lucrative for ever more without anyone having to put in too much effort in future.

Of course it is recognised that the clubs at the top of the financial tree have the greatest influence in composing this song, but there is an insistence, and so a desire, that even the minor band members should get a greater share of the royalties going forward.

All very honourable. All very interesting,— and all completely missing the point in my humble opinion.

Now, there is a clamour from the fans that the proposed structure of 12 – 12—18 is flawed and leads to daft consequences when worked through. We want 14- 14 – 14 say many fans or 16- 14 – 12 or some other composition altogether!!

Oh—and the fans want the chairmen to consult the fans before making a decision on anything, and they want Messrs Regan, Doncaster and Longmuir to stop telling fans that they need to be “educated” about what is best for the game!

All very noble! All very interesting, —and all completely missing the point once again in my humble opinion.

Jock Stein once famously proclaimed that football is nothing without fans— almost everyone knows that. Yet how many actually stop to consider those words and what he meant.

There is nothing without fans!!!!!

How many times have you heard commentators, journalists, ex players and even fans refer to the fans as “the paying customers” ?  This phrase has made its way into common parlance and is rarely- if ever- challenged or qualified.

So I will ask—is that what the football fan is prepared to be called—“The paying customer”?— is that it?

Are you, dear reader, a paying customer?—and nothing more?

Or is a football fan a “member of a club”—a “ supporter of a club” or even “part” of a club?

If you are just a paying customer does that mean that anyone who turns up at a ground and pays over some money on a solitary Saturday afternoon is to be seen in exactly the same way as the guy or gal who has been a season ticket holder for years and years?

Does the person who sits behind their keyboard and blogs and comments for Britain on matters football—but who never goes to a game or who does not spend a penny following or promoting their proclaimed club – have the same strength of voice as that season ticket holder—or even the guy who stumps up the cash to view a game once a year?

Not a chance in my view!!!

Equally though, if you have a Football Club Board who do nothing whatsoever to attract people into the club apart from throw out a team on a Saturday Afternoon with mixed degrees of success – are they worthy of support from the “paying customer” or anyone else for that matter?

In my view the answer is no— a very loud —NO!!!

If we are going to reconstruct Scottish Football then I am sorry you have to start by looking at exactly what it is you are trying to reconstruct—reconstruct being the appropriate and important word.

The job is to reconstruct—and regain— viable and important interest in Scottish Football and the teams—or clubs—who play in Scotland.

League reconstruction is only part of that process, and the redistribution of television money is only part of the league reconstruction part of the process!

The month of January is named after the Roman God Janus—who had two heads— one for looking forward and one for looking back. Janus was the God of transition—The God of change— and it was always clear that you could only have change going forward by casting an eye back to the past—to see what you wanted to keep from that past, to see what you wanted to jettison, and to see what could be learned from past times.

In the past , football crowds were far larger, revenues proportionally bigger and closer together when comparing clubs, and consequently it might be said that the football product was much better on the park—with various teams outwith the two big Glasgow teams—please do remember the Jags come from Glasgow too and that in the past Clyde and Third Lanark were also natives— competing for and winning trophies.

Nowadays, football clubs have lower attendances—unless of course one of the smaller teams ( I refuse to use the derogatory and well hackneyed phrase that is banded about re smaller Scottish Clubs ) gets to a Hampden final when low and behold anything between 20,000 and 30,000 lost football fans appear as if out of nowhere!!

And hey—if you happen to be a fan of the Ibrox Club or the Parkhead club—don’t go getting too comfy in your seat— where the hell were some of you before Seville or Manchester?

The point is that football is like politics — it all means nothing without participation— real participation. That means fans buying into, spending money on and in, and promoting their club at every opportunity. It means the clubs and their boards using every trick in the book to generate income away from the football pitch. A “Club” in law is no more than a collection of people coming together for a common purpose and a football club is perfectly capable of having genuine “club activity” which does not primarily involve football.

Where are the regional and local initiatives to promote the social aspects of football clubs? Do the facilities for women need upgrading to help persuade more mothers and girlfriends to come to the ground whether that be for games or other events or functions?

In a time of never ending football memorabilia, how many people went to their club shop this Christmas and bought merchandise for family and friends – even if the same family and friends support another club? How many people invite visitors or non football supporting friends to a game on a Saturday—even if it is only every now and then?

In short what do you do to support your club—and what can that club do to get more and more people involved in the club itself or its functions? And what functions could that club become involved in using existing facilities and resources?

Is there a kids club? A  weekday crèche? Are there facilities that are not used six days a week which could be used for community groups who have nothing to do with football—or even sport? Should the club hold daft things like race nights, bingo nights— functions that may well attract people who would no more likely  go to a football ground on a Saturday than suddenly develop Noddy Holder style sideburns?

How many people take an old shirt or T shirt or towel bearing the club colours on holiday to give to a waiter or a stranger or someone who has no connection with the club—with a view to creating a fan or someone with a bit of interest who might just one day become a season ticket holder or even an occasional “paying customer” at the door?

Further, are there folk out there who could actually go along and volunteer services for their club for nothing and so save the club from spending hard earned cash out of necessity? Could you be a gateman? Could you perform a task for your club on a voluntary basis?

You may think that a daft or utopian ideology but sports clubs traditionally always had a social purpose as well as a sporting one. Clubs were a focus for a locality, or a workforce, or a congregation or just about any group of people who want to come together for sporting or social purposes. Further those who volunteered their services for the common good often got great local recognition for their dedication and spirit.

Ask any Dons fan about Teddy Scott—who although a paid employee was Aberdeen FC through and through—pay or no pay!

The clamour for change in football should not be blinded by the words of the three official bodies and the more vocal chairmen of the clubs that want to play in the league – or not as the case may be. Change should come from the fans of the game up—but to be honest until the fans—or should I say the mysteriously disappearing armchair fans—actually come out and support their clubs a lot more often, then we are not going to see valuable and worthwhile change no matter what the league set up or composition.

On Saturday, I listened to Off The Ball on Radio Scotland where the contributors waxed lyrical about journalists of yesteryear who made the game and broadcasting interesting. Jimmy Sanderson, Bob Crampsey et al – they all got a mention.

The discussion sparked a memory for me when they came to discuss the legend that is Arthur Montford—famously referred to by Jock Stein as “ The Sportsjacket” with reference to his never ending collection of blazers.

Arthur was a journalist—both print and broadcast— with the BBC and then STV since 1957 in terms of television—and with the Evening Times and other papers in terms of the written press.

A lifelong follower of Morton and a keen Golfer and golf commentator, Arthur has been retired this many a year although he can still be seen walking up and down Byres Road occasionally. At one time he became Chairman of Morton and he used to write in the club programme on a regular basis—possibly still does! He is by all accounts a nice man—a good man— sufficiently good and of sufficient standing to have been elected as the Rector of Glasgow University in 1975—beating George Brown and Janey Buchan ( if you don’t know who they were then look them up! )— in the process.

He was the first sports journalist to hold that post.

In his Rectorial address Arthur went to great lengths to highlight what can be achieved if volunteers— individuals— club members if you like— put their shoulders to the wheel and strive for change, for a common purpose, and for society in general. He stressed that such communal effort brought about change—brought about improvement— brought about advancement in numerous situations. This was only three years after Jimmy Reid had used the same platform to denounce the “Rat Race” declaring “ I am not a rat!”.

For football to change in this country we need action—action by the fans—action by the clubs—action by the journalists and commentators to highlight initiatives and opportunities for our football clubs to play a greater part in our communities— from kids to pensioners, from toddlers to mums and dads, local residents to occasional visitors.

That is the way to make your voice heard and to make that voice count. That is the way to bring about the change that you want for the future.

There were four members of Slade—but only two wrote the words and music to Merry Christmas Everybody and it is they who earned the right to the pension royalties for ever more. The other two bit part players did not!

Janus was meant to oversee transition to the future by casting an eye on the past and learning from what went before—as should we when considering Scottish Football—and in that spirit you will find a link to the whole of Arthur Montford’s address below— there are things worth learning there.

Here’s to the future—-NOW—– its only just begun!

Click to access UGSD00029.pdf

 

About the author

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broganrogantrevinoandhogan author

Boot wearing football, sport & total nonsense fan-- Gourmet, Bon Viveur and eedgit! - Oh and I write a bit occasionally!

522 Comments so far

bawsman

bawsmanPosted on8:32 pm - Jan 15, 2013


Guys….There are NO rules.

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SeniorPosted on8:51 pm - Jan 15, 2013


Congrats to Gordon Strachan. Well deserved honour.
He done it when he was a player for Scotland lets hope he brings the same tigerish qualities to the Scottish job.

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Celtic for 125 years (@pau1888)Posted on10:06 pm - Jan 15, 2013


I don’t think its a beamback as such. I’m sure the game is live on tv and is being shown in the bars within Ibrox. I could be wrong .Just my thoughts.

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parmahamsterPosted on10:27 pm - Jan 15, 2013


Every time I hear the words “beamback” and “Rangers”, my thoughts are drawn back to November 21st 1998.

A full house at Parkhead plus another 40,000 or so at Ibrox for the beamback, with the bogit factory slavering at the prospect of their heroes reaming a Venglos-led side with the only first-choice recognised striker (at the time) Viduka, out with injury and starting a 35-year-old midfielder already dismissed by numpties like Keevins as being way too old for the SPL.

All I need add is…Scott Wilson anyone?

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on10:30 pm - Jan 15, 2013


Campbell.
===============

He seems to have ended his self-imposed silence recently, with another appearance – this time at Strachan’s appointment.

He obviously thinks that there is no issue with him being photographed/filmed as President of the SFA.

And again, no MSM ‘journalist’ asked him any awkward questions ?

Ogilvie and the MSM don’t seem to care about what the fans think about the SFA President, and his performance in the last year in particular.

Every time I see Ogilvie’s face in the media now, my confidence in a brighter future for Scottish football diminishes a little bit more… 🙁

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gordon-strachan-is-appointed-scotland-manager-1535348

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TSFMPosted on10:55 pm - Jan 15, 2013


Celtic for 125 years (@pau1888) says:

Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 22:06(Edit)

I don’t think its a beamback as such. I’m sure the game is live on tv and is being shown in the bars within Ibrox. I could be wrong .Just my thoughts.
________________________________________________________________________

Very possible – and no extra permissions required or fees to DU due. if they have bought the Sky licence (I assume it’s on Sky or ESPN) or just the required TV licence (if it’s on terrestrial TV) then they just sell hospitality packages in a few of the big lounges.

I think Celtic have done this on one or two occasions in the past, (although not for some time).

To put things in perspective, the beamback option using the existing facilities at Ibrox would only allow for a maximum of around 15000 viewers (assuming the current big-screen facility is in full working order). Historical beamback arrangements (in SFL Premier Division matches) also required that the home team had a 50% share in the takings after expenses.

A 15000 ticket discounted match at Ibrox would attract premium prices for Plod and Rocksteady, as well as stadium heating, ambulance, and fire services etc.

To bring in extra giant screens to sit on the field (and thus allow for greater viewership) they would have to pay a great deal of cash for the expertise and technology with no guarantee of washing its face.

Even at the successful end of the spectrum they wouldn’t be paying off the BTC with the profits. Doubt it would even pay Campbell Ogilvie’s bar bill 🙂

With all that in mind, your guess is probably correct. It’ll be a chicken in a basket sit down in front of the plasmas in the lounge – and a GIRUY to the Arabs no doubt.

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TSFMPosted on10:58 pm - Jan 15, 2013


arabest1 says:

Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 19:53(Edit)

TSFM says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 19:14

I don’t doubt you’re correct on this TSFM, but I’m staggered that the broadcasting of any match is not first subject to SFA, and participants agreement…….is this another ‘unprecedented’ situation that has caught everyone by surprise? or maybe a clause in the now ubiquitous 5 way agreement?
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Sorry arabest,

I wasn’t as articulate as i should have been. Your assumtion is correct. The SFA would have a veto in a beamback situation – although I am not so sure that DU would have one. They would get half of the proceeds though – although I think that would meagre in any case (see above).

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on11:15 pm - Jan 15, 2013


What’s wrong with using ‘Scunner’ ?

We could/should call him an awful lot worse, but referring to Ogilvie as a villainous – but humourous -character in a children’s TV show is not worthy of censorship on TSFM – is it ?

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BrendaPosted on11:16 pm - Jan 15, 2013


jean7brodie

Seen it then whoosh gone!!! Wish it was as easy to get rid of him 🙂

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on11:20 pm - Jan 15, 2013


Brenda says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 23:16
Really don’t understand why it’s whoosh gone!! Glad you saw it and if only he was!!

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iceman63Posted on11:37 pm - Jan 15, 2013


I fear for Strachan in his new job.

I wish him luck.

He will be given very little leeway by a hostile msm and any bad results ( highly probable with the present squad of players and the chaos that they have descended into under Levein) will see pressure grow for yet another manager soon,

His associations with both Celtic and Aberdeen render him anathema for many in the media – despite his obvious qualifications for the job. I can’t see anything less than an improvement to 3rd place in the present group (almost impossible from the shambles he has inherited) saving him to have a shot at qualifying for the Euros.

Once McLeish has been sacked from his new sinecure ( how come he keeps getting employed with his record of failure upon failure?) or SuperAlly records his magnificent record successive promotions as manager, expect clamour in summer 2014 for either of these fine gentlemen ( with the support of an aging cardigan overlooking their progress) to take over from the “abrasive”, “underperforming” Strachan.

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bawsman

bawsmanPosted on11:37 pm - Jan 15, 2013


To be fair to Ogilvie, he looked shifty, uncomfortable and suitably sleekit next to WGS. There may just be a conscience lurking in there somewhere.

He really does have a brass neck.

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briggsbhoyPosted on12:16 am - Jan 16, 2013


Strachans appointment today, here’s how it works:

70% of the press and Scottish public say he’s the man for the job, 25% say he’s not the man and 5% are undecided.

Three defeats later

25% say he’s still the man for the job, 70% say I never wanted him and he’s not the man for the job and 5% are still undecided

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The GlenPosted on12:32 am - Jan 16, 2013


The only thing I have heard re the Dundee Utd. cup tie, is that the game will be shown on the TV in bar ’72 at Ibrox.

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on12:56 am - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 00:32

The only thing I have heard re the Dundee Utd. cup tie, is that the game will be shown on the TV in bar ’72 at Ibrox.
====================

Yes…but have they paid for their TV licence? ! I think we should be told…

(Cheap shot, but I’m not sorry. 😉 )

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The GlenPosted on1:20 am - Jan 16, 2013


I had a discussion with a couple of fellow Rangers fans the other day. We were all in total agreement that Messrs Green and McCoist should be keeping their heads down, be thankful for having a league to play in and should prepare for Honours being removed because of a decade of abuse of player registration.

So, 100% of Rangers fans I polled agreed. That is a fact correct.

But, some some reason, posters here post the most ridiculous of posts from RM etc and it is accepted as fact.

Recently I have seen posts telling how “37,00o Rangers fans were singing the BB’s” – were they? Really? And the only Reason Rangers had crowds in excess of 30,000 was because of all the free tickets. I noticed Angus asking where this evidence had come from but, alas, it was the dreaded Thumbs Down.

TSFM just looks like to me to be a bunch of 50 or so posters who are in a room, each taking a turn of getting up on stage, then telling everyone what they want to hear, to a massive round of applause, until the next one steps up.

BRTH posted a great post regarding how we should be supporting our teams, within a couple of posts we are right back onto how we should support Scottish Football by no going?!

The Rangers fans and management, by not going to Tannadice, are wrong. 100% wrong. The Team have been back there before. It is quite rightly seen to be an utterly ridiculous stance. But, apparently, if things aren’t to our liking we here on TSFM should not go to game?

All the talk of Armageddon in the summer was quite rightly rubbished. Utter p****. But now it seems that there will be Armageddon if the good posters on TSFM aren’t happy with the League reconstruction.

Back to BRTH’s post. The team I follow these days, home and away, bring in 50% of their income from the Clubs lottery in the Town. Without that support, the club would not exist. Without the volunteers (most over 65) we would not exist.

Loads of people on here – some who don’t even go to games,as it seems – are prepare to withdraw their support from Scottish Football.

I suspect the X thousand fans who buy season tickets to see their teams every year couldn’t care less. If you asked the average Ayr Utd. (or any teams season ticket buyer) if they would forgo their reason ticket for next year if the League reconstruction went ahead, I suspect they would say “GTF, as long as we beat Killie”.

Time for a reality check?

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doontheslopePosted on3:56 am - Jan 16, 2013


Theglen2012

“Time for a reality check?”
———————————–

500 million supporters world wide, 100 million annual income, a Christmas video message to his loyal subjects, a world record in world records, making friends throughout Scotland, a move to a European league, a move to the Blue Square league, taking Uefa to court for discrimination, flights and hotel in Qatar paid for them, all footballing debts paid, if a CVA doesnt go through Rangers are deid, no they’re not I bought the history……

I know who needs a reality check and it aint TSFM.

I’ll bet the appointment of Gordon Strachan nearly made everyone forget how corrupt Campbell Ogilvie and the SFA are. Nearly. So lets forget all about EBT Ogilvie and his cronies shameless rule breaking, their honking relationship with our obnoxious MSM, and move on.

Lets just give auld Tam a new pitchfork to get rid of the puddles at half time and ask Rutherglen Wummins Guild to sponsor bibs for the bairns fitba club and, before you know it, Scotland will be on its way to Brazil.

That’ll work.

And while I’m on a rant, to those who are bleating that Rangers(IL) no longer have a say in Scottish football, they just picked the new Scotland manager! Hows that for a reality check?

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paradisebhoyPosted on6:46 am - Jan 16, 2013


doontheslope says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 03:56

I was enjoying your wee rant until the last paragraph :

“And while I’m on a rant, to those who are bleating that Rangers(IL) no longer have a say in Scottish football, they just picked the new Scotland manager! Hows that for a reality check?”

Could you explain please ?

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doontheslopePosted on7:08 am - Jan 16, 2013


paradisebhoy

Could you explain please?
———————————
Sure. I’m very happy with WGS’ appointment as Scotland manager.

I am just extremely unhappy that conflicted Campbell is still in office to make such an appointment. He admitted to receiving EBT payment from Rangers(IL), admits he can’t do his job because of his connections with Rangers(IL), was 27 years at Rangers(IL), had shares in Rangers(IL) which he deftly swapped over to his wife’s name, and he probably has Rangers(IL) pyjamas.

I’m guessing that his primary interest is not Scottish football, but Rangers(IL) and now Sevco.

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TSFMPosted on9:24 am - Jan 16, 2013


theglen @01.20

Thoughtful post, and one worthy of discussion instead of the whataboutery to which you have been subjected.

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angus1983Posted on9:27 am - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 01:20
——

I think everyone should take note of this post. I’m more guilty than most of posting RM nonsense posts, mostly for pure entertainment value and to lighten the atmosphere, or provide discussion points where they come up with something interesting.

doon – I think TRFC picking Wee Gordon (still a demi-god in my eyes, from his playing days up here – what a privilege to see him play every week) is pushing it a wee bit. 🙂

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TSFMPosted on9:31 am - Jan 16, 2013


StevieBC

I take your point re. the humour involved with the name calling, however I don’t see how we can ask to be taken seriously if we constantly refer to people by these names – none of which are intended to compliment those individuals.

Same goes for the Charles green epithets. We have gotten into the habit to such an extent that it seems the norm.

As a general rule, why not just refer to people by their names? Anything else is wilfully disrespectful and unworthy of the level of discussion that takes place here.

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arabest1Posted on9:53 am - Jan 16, 2013


TSFM says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 22:58

6

1

Rate This

No TSFM, you were perfectly articulate, I just did not read your comment carefully.

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doontheslopePosted on10:04 am - Jan 16, 2013


TSFM

What part of “thoughtful” was the accusation that TSFM is a bunch of about 50 posters in a room seeking rounds of applause? Didn’t you yourself post the statistics of this site at the New Year? Or was the “millions” of hits quoted just fanciful Greenian number-crunching?

A few posters mentioned boycott of matches, a few posters quote from RM. It was unfair to jump from the paricular to the general and label the blog the way theglen did.

How many people post on here? That’ll sort that discussion point out.

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arabest1Posted on10:10 am - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 01:20

Good post Glen and these things need saying from time to time. Football is by nature tribal and we all actively construct centers of the sacred and the profane. The ‘hatred’ that is directed back and forth is intensified by the social media and can often bring out the worst in us all, the temptation to ‘play to the gallery’ is sometimes overpowering, especially when frustration reigns and events seem so far from control.

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wottpiPosted on10:59 am - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 01:20

“I suspect the X thousand fans who buy season tickets to see their teams every year couldn’t care less. If you asked the average Ayr Utd. (or any teams season ticket buyer) if they would forgo their reason ticket for next year if the League reconstruction went ahead, I suspect they would say “GTF, as long as we beat Killie”.

And is that not the point of this site, that unlike fans sites for individual clubs like RM, people are trying to see the bigger picture.

The demise of Rangers(IL) made a lot of people people sit up and take note of the folly of the game being focussed on our two largest clubs and that Scottish Football is actually stronger (and has more prospects in the future) when it sticks together.

My impression is that while many posters passionately support their own clubs they are interested in Scottish Football as a whole.

Maybe I am giving my age away but the ‘average fan’ these days is often wholly absorbed by their own club along with possibly wanting their nearest rivals to fail.

The tribalism, segregation, all seater stadiums (and of course pricing), especially in the SPL, have done away with the days when you could go and support your team one week and the next week be standing at your neighbouring club’s ground with your mates who supported that club – just to watch ‘the fitba’.

BRTH is right, perhaps some people could do more to attract new fans to the game, but having seen the performance of those in power over the last year and now seeing them as being powerless to stop the embarrassing daily rantings eminating from Ibrox, can you blame some people who are already trying to do their bit from wanting to take extreme action to make the authorities sit up and take notice.

I’m not really one for boycotts but there are plenty ways of getting the message across at grounds throughout the country through a co-ordinatied campaign.

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Reilly1926Posted on11:03 am - Jan 16, 2013


I’m not sure if this comment on Sevco 5088’s plight has been on the blog. I’ve just came across it on Twitter.

It’s from a Hertz forum and the post is written by Doc Blog;

=============================

Jesus Christ. And you describe yourself as a reasonable-minded Rangers fan? You are, quite literally, deluded – the definition of a delusion being a fixed belief which continues to be held in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Please stop this idiotic drivel about Rangers being hard done by in some way. Sorry, but not on this planet. You wonder why everyone was so down on Rangers? Could it be because you had been lording it over the rest of Scottish football (Celtic excepted) for decades, whilst cheating financially on a staggering scale to ensure your position could never be threatened? Everybody likes to see a bully get their comeuppance, and Rangers were one of the biggest bullies in football history.

Having been found out, Rangers then showed zero remorse (still haven’t, in fact) and have continued to behave with unbelievable arrogance even as their club collapsed around them. Had it not been for the utter lack of humility shown by the club, other people might have been more sympathetic, but that’s the Rangers way, isn’t it?

Then the unthinkable happened – you actually went bust. And contrary to what you appear to think, every authority in Scottish football immediately began to do everything in their power to ensure that you had as soft a landing as possible. Administrators are supposed to act on behalf of the creditors, to get them the best deal possible. That’s almost the exact opposite of what happened in your case. The company’s largest assets (Ibrox and Murray Park) were not sold off to the highest bidder to pay off the creditors. Instead, they were placed out of the creditors’ reach by selling them to NewCo for a derisory sum (about £4.5m, IIRC – when Ibrox alone had been valued at £100m in Rangers’ own accounts!) This was allowed to go unchallenged. Was there a fire sale of players? No. In fact, Green threatened legal action against players who exercised their right to leave.

Then we come to the question of where NewCo would play, and the shameful shenanigans that went on to try to prevent them from having to follow the rules. As a new club, NewCo should have had to apply to join SFL3, like any other new club would have to. But instead we were treated to the spectacle of the SPL and SFA seriously considering reinserting them into the SPL and pretending nothing had happened. It’s hardly surprising the fans of other clubs were screaming blue murder – the authorities had thrown away their own rule book and were making things up as they went along, because this was Rangers, and the usual rules don’t apply to OF clubs.

Fortunately, sanity prevailed and the SPL clubs voted against this madness, which really and truly would have made Scottish football a laughing stock around the world. Then the focus went on to the SFL, who were pressurised into putting NewCo into SFL1 – for which there was even less justification than keeping them in the SPL, since the latter is a separate body. But this failed too, amid dire predictions of doom and apocalypse (which have failed to ensue). So NewCo went to SFL3.

Then we started to get this nonsense about ‘we’ve been punished enough’. Complete twaddle. You weren’t punished AT ALL for anything you did. The ‘demotion’ was anything but – instead of having to reapply to the SFL, you were allowed to keep OldCo’s membership and bypass the application process. It was doing NewCo a favour. The only ‘punishments’ dealt out to Rangers were a miserable fine, a transfer ban which was carefully arranged to cause a minimum of inconvenience (it didn’t start till you had already signed players for this season, and will end just in time for you to register players for next season!) and a requirement to pay ‘football debts’, which was trivial in comparison to the series of favours you had received.

Then the new season began, with Rangers in Div 3, but still owning Ibrox and Murray Park, still having much of their squad, still having all their coaching staff, having made virtually nobody redundant, and claiming somehow to be both a new club (hence debt free) and an old club (hence with all the Rangers history). No attempt has been made to challenge this at all. Next thing we know, ‘Rangers’ – who are supposed to have gone bust and returned as a new entity – are signing players from SPL clubs and paying them bumper SPL wages to play in SFL3.

Is it any wonder that your club are resented? The scale of the heist you have pulled off is breathtaking. You were cheating, you were found out, you went bust, and yet you have been allowed to carry on as if nothing had happened. Your ‘punishment’ has been a slap on the wrist at best. And despite all this, you honestly think you have been mistreated! If Hearts go to the wall, do you think we will get ANY of the special treatment you did? Not a chance in hell.

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manandboyPosted on11:14 am - Jan 16, 2013


Reality check.

If I do something wrong and someone confronts me with it and I then deny it, I am in effect denying reality, and in need therefore of ‘ a reality check ‘.

In a sense this is what has been happening with the whole sorry Sevco-SFA saga.

Deny, deny, deny – ad infinitum.

TSFM seeks to restore reality to this situation by stating what is real, i.e. the truth.

To date, neither Sevco nor the SFA nor the MSM will admit the truth.

And so we go on.

Until we get a reality checkmate.

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Madbhoy24941Posted on11:27 am - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:

Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 01:20
———————————————————–

Some excellent points raised but the post was ruined by doing exactly the same thing that annoys you, picking selective posters and claiming they represent the whole forum. There are approx. 100-120 regular posters on here and only a few are posting contents from RM or taking any opportunity to have a go at someone connected to Rangers, the rest seem pretty open minded to the opinions (and sometimes facts) that are shared by fans of all other clubs, including Rangers.

I have no illusions that most blogs, fanzines and similar media are populated by the extreme element, in other circles of life; this is known as being passionate. It is how you channel that passion that determines how you are viewed by others, petty name calling and generalizing won’t help an argument but resorting to that just to highlight it exists, well, that doesn’t help either.

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shield2012Posted on11:47 am - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:

Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 01:20
———————————————————–

Can’t believe a few people are picking holes in the post by theglen2012. The majority would agree with what he says so why not just take it in and keep the petty responses to yourself?

It’s very disappointing when I see a post that someones copied from RM.

It reminds me of times when the TV reporters are interviewing fans outside the stadiums and they somehow seem to select the undesirables.

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AuldheidPosted on11:53 am - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:

Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 01:20

I think there is a danger of iceberg thinking taking over. In fact it might form part of your criticism of the blog.

By iceberg thinking I mean the assumption that the nature of the 10% of the iceberg we see is the same as the 90% under the water.

The nature of blogs is for the lighter stuff to reach and bob on the surface (as I once said on another blog ” it is not that common sense does not surface occasionaly, it is just that it struggles to stay afloat”.

I would not apply that to TSFM where some stuff may bob and float but where common sense and reality persist under their own gravity.

But I would agree with you that iceberg thinking influences how supporters see the others, particularly Rangers and Celtic, where the faults of even one are applied to all.

Like the TSFM blog I think the common sense/reality of supporters on both sides is still around under its own gravity and it was good to hear your evidence in support of my view.

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AllyJambo

AllyJamboPosted on12:07 pm - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:

Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 01:20

It’s heart-warming to hear that at least two TRFC fans are in agreement with you on what’s going on at Ibrox. Did you think to ask them to join us here and to put their more enlightened views across, giving a more ballanced discussion? Like you general recieve yourself, I’m certain, they would be made welcome and be given, by most, the chance to put their points and have them debated. Perhaps if they see that we are not just banging an anti-Rangers drum, just wanting to see the correct things done, they might spread the word amongst their fellow Gers fans and so more might be prepared to accept that there has been many wrongdoings by their club (either old or new) and instead of bleeting on about people and clubs out to get them, realise just how lucky they are to be playing in any league at all this season. If they should read the post from Andrew Woods above, they might get some idea of how they are viewed by everyone, not just those who follow Celtic.

With regards to the 37,000 fans singing the BB song at Ibrox, certainly not all will be singing it, as many, like myself, will rarely sing any songs at football matches, but obviously there will be many who do sing, but perhaps, now, not that contentious song. It still remains, however, that a very large proportion do sing it, and nothing is being done to stop it, either by the authorities, or by the decent fans themselves. Do you believe anything is actually being done by TRFC to stamp it out, or by the ‘decent’ fans to discourage it? Do you think it would be a good idea if those who genuinely want it stopped started to sing something else whenever the morons start up? Or do you think that, at Ibrox, there is a fear that if they take the kind of action that makes these extreme bogits feel unwelcome and unable to spout their disgusting bile, thousands would be removed from these record attendances?

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chancer67Posted on12:34 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Just heard the Football League chairman on Talksport revealing that they dont talk to individual clubs of anothet association only the governing bodies.That rules Charles’s escape route then, or will Charles use this to rally the troops by declaring the SFA are blocking his way..

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SeniorPosted on12:34 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Still searching for The Rangers official fan blog. I hear it is reasonable and instructive.
Anybody help?

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Shooperb

ShooperbPosted on12:37 pm - Jan 16, 2013


iceman63 says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 23:37
19 8 i
Rate This

Won’t happen. I think you must be one of the older posters on here if that’s your view (or at least hark back to a viewpoint that was popular years ago!). Once upon a time success at club level would see you touted for the Scotland job.

It’s now the other way around – if you do well at the national job, then clubs come calling. The idea that McCoist would be touted for the Scotland job if he managed to get Rangers into the SPL at first time of asking is a little far fetched. So far fetched in fact, that Strachan would be more likely to find himself touted for the Rangers job, if he does well for the national team!

The only way I could see that happening was if The Rangers board thought that McCoist could only be trusted to get them into the SPL, but not actually manage there – then you might see him getting touted as an attempt to get rid of him without having to pay compensation, but it’s all still very unlikely!

Incidentally, there’s nothing wrong with older fashioned views. I know that I love to see Scottish teams do well in Europe, regardless of who they are, and I cheered as loudly watching Rangers getting to the UEFA cup final as I did when Celtic did the same thing – although it was easier to watch Celtic, as they at least went out and had a go.

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Shooperb

ShooperbPosted on12:48 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Senior says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 12:34

As has been mentioned before – go and have a look at RM, baulk at the vitriol and sectarian language, then look at who the targets are – it’s normally a response to someone (a TRFC fan) who had the temerity to state a viewpoint that differed from that of the guy with the loudest voice. It’s a core group who attempt to ‘guide’ discussions on those sort of forums, and unfortunately there is no place for the decent TRFC fans to discuss things, lest they be accused of being ‘Timposters’ (or much stronger alternatives).

It says a lot that we get the occasional poster on here (despite supposedly being the enemy), as it’s only really here that they get to state their views and have a level discussion on them without it descending into name calling.

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StMiley (@StMiley)Posted on1:26 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Upon reflection, the proposed move by Greens rangers to the lower echelons of English football, may just be one blustering utterance too far. It was of course, to any sane person, just bravado and should have been filed beside the ‘sex discrimination’ utterance he made moments later.

For even if FIFA were willing to loosen their rules, a club the size of sevco would not apply at such a low level. Certainly Celtic would not consider anything lower than Championship. And if FIFA did open the door, so to speak, there would be applications from across Europe to join the (lucrative)English leagues. Sevco would be crushed in the stampede(IMO).

However, the Conference Chairman appears to have ignored every crazy utterance of Mr Green and chosen to take him at his word. So much so, that he will raise the issue for discussion when the minnows of English football meet next week. What if they say yes?

– Green would then have to consider, seriously, the prospect of joining another league at a lower level than he currently is at, yes the quality may be better and the long-term prize may be greater though perhaps nigh impossible, but in Scotland he will be competing for prizes and Europe in the not so distant future.

– Green will have to approach FIFA/UEFA immediately to get a firm and decisive answer. A predictable NO will close the door, not just on this opportunity, but on the very salable dream.

– Would it be right to steer the ship on a long journey, fraught with financial danger. When your just here for a quick turnaround!?

Green has been called out by the Conference Chairman, I’m guessing he’s sweating just now.

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ordinaryfanPosted on1:30 pm - Jan 16, 2013


With regards theglen2012’s post. He/she makes some good points and it is important for us all to rein ourselves in occasionally and ensure this doesn’t become a Sevco/Rangers bashing exercise.
I think that on a couple of occasions the Blog has began to lean that way. Most of the time when this happens I would say it is due to simple frustration that fans feel Scottish Football is still being held to ransom by Green and co.
However I disagree with theglen2012 that this has manifested itself in the cases he mentions, the singing of sectarian songs and that free tickets are propping up attendances.
The disgraceful singing of tbb HAS happened amongst Newco’s support, how many actually sang is not known, but it was a large enough number to have it boom around stadiums. It wasn’t a “small minority”, which has been the usual MSM and governing bodies get out clause for decades. It may well be a minority of Newco supporters, but if it was, it was a large minority, large enough to be a serious issue for Scottish Football.
The free tickets being given out is a difficult subject, mainly because it is unknown what the numbers are. It is fair to say that some tickets are being given for free, but numbers are not going to be given. Although it seems like a small issue, but we need to remember that Green is using attendance figures to strengthen his position. He is wily enough to keep these numbers up by dishing out freebies, we just don’t know the scale of the give away and have no way of checking. This just leaves us with “opinions” and “guesses”, which is not helpful. The frustration is at Green’s spouting of numbers, which he does in the usual supremacy tone that has became typical of Ibrox men. If he and Newco supporters want to use attendance numbers to belittle other Clubs (like Dundee Utd when he said Newco fans will fill Tannadice if given the tickets for the whole stadium) and as a weapon, then he and the Clubs fans can have no qualms with other supporters throwing those figures back at him with the question “how many of those were given out for free?”.
We on this blog though, need to make sure that opinions on such things as the tickets, are kept to a minimum and that they are clearly stated as OPINION and not FACT. At the same time, posters such as theglen2012, need to recognise that what Green is telling us is rightly, not going to be accepted as fact.

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smartbhoyPosted on1:31 pm - Jan 16, 2013


I’ve been to beambacks at CP and it’s only ever shown on tv’s in hospitality suites and if they have them then projector style onto a bigger screen, It’s not really a beamback, it’s just charging people money into watch a game they could watch on any tv in any house or pub in the UK.

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torrejohnbhoyPosted on1:32 pm - Jan 16, 2013


http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/some-comment-on-rangers-compensation-claim-boost/comment-page-1/#comment-41405

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Danish PastryPosted on2:32 pm - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 01:20

99 16 Rate This

TSFM just looks like to me to be a bunch of 50 or so posters who are in a room, each taking a turn of getting up on stage, then telling everyone what they want to hear, to a massive round of applause, until the next one steps up …
———-

At times it seems like that. I think RTC was aware of a similar problem and encouraged the poster ‘Adam’ because he challenged the ‘party line’. I remember Adam’s posts being defended by RTC, not because he agreed with him, but because Adam raised issues easily overlooked when everyone was singing from the same hymnsheet.

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BrendaPosted on2:53 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Go Rab!!! 🙂

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jockybhoyPosted on3:22 pm - Jan 16, 2013


theglen:

“TSFM just looks like to me to be a bunch of 50 or so posters who are in a room, each taking a turn of getting up on stage, then telling everyone what they want to hear, to a massive round of applause, until the next one steps up.” – well looky here, I’m 2% of TSFM!

I have been giving thumbs up to many posters who post opinions I disagree with, as it seem these delicate little flowers have an issue with TDs and threaten to flounce off if the ration is out of proportion, however, whilst he(?) makes some good points, his(?) post does descend into a bit of a rant – I don’t think anyone is saying that NewRangers don’t have 36,000 season ticket holders, after all, that was in their prospectus and lying about that might have serious consequences (so not sure why theglen would “out” the fake figure at only 30k – that’s obviously incorrect, was that for effect?).

Equally going off on one by claiming the most literal interpretation of say a post stating “a 37,000 strong Rangers crowd banging out the Billy Boys” as some sort of proof of an untruth retold when it could be simply how the reader chooses to interpret that statement…

Re the free tickets – there was at least one image of such posted on the net, a ticket with a “zero” for the price. Perhaps there were just a few and there was a rational explanation for that, perhaps Hologram Tam has been doing a wee bit of extra-curricualr work from prision, I don’t know, but there was an example posted. This whole thing as, in a sense, responding to “whataboutery” as fans of New Rangers, in the absence of ANYTHING to have a go at Celtic about started up this BS campaign about attendance, because their held up. But they aren’t happy to be examined on the same issue.

As for just referring to people “by their names” TSFM – you go first eh? ;)It’s a nickname FGS, something I get called by all the time (full disclosure “jock” is not my given name, and that’s not my “work” moniker). What, are we going to do start calling each other “Esquire”? The “Right Honourable”? Surely anything else is surely “disrespectful”? :p

Final point – theglen – have you or your coule of like-minded Rangers mates gone on any rangers websites and said what you posted here? How did you get on? I think this is probably a very easy crown compared to soem other sites.

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ecobhoyPosted on3:33 pm - Jan 16, 2013


ordinaryfan says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 13:30

We on this blog though, need to make sure that opinions on such things as the tickets, are kept to a minimum and that they are clearly stated as OPINION and not FACT. At the same time, posters such as theglen2012, need to recognise that what Green is telling us is rightly, not going to be accepted as fact.
=========================================================================

I think a brilliant example of the Ibrox ‘way’ with numbers is diplayed here:

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/3147-seasons-to-be-cheerful

How stupid to turn what is a great achievement in ST sales into a joke or picture caption competition. Methinks a too clever piece of PR spun out of control.

Numbers are great but the average price of a ST at Ibrox is £216 – I haven’t checked how many half season tickets are included but as they are also half price or less then that would reduce the average price which was announced before the half-season tickets went on sale.

There is no doubt IMHO that prices will need to be significantly increased next year no matter what League or where Rangers are playing. It really is difficult to see how playing wages can be held to one third of turnover at these seat prices.

Down south STs are approaching £1k which means that a club with one fifth the attendance at Ibrox would pull in the same amount of ST money approx.

So it in’t just the difference in TV money which shows the vast financial gulf.

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bluPosted on3:42 pm - Jan 16, 2013


rab says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 14:44

Hugh Keevins, radio&newspaper, can call us bampots.

Jim Traynor, ex radio & newspaper, in his official capacity of Trfc employee can call us semi literate.

Charles Green accuses us of of bogitry.

Regan says we need educated.

Unless they speak about us in deragatory terms, then mostly we are ignored.

TSFM response is to take out a circle of paper, some soft crayons, a compass and square, and draw mister ogilvie a nice wee picture, but not to much green colouring incase we upset the majority of decent trfc fans that don’t seem to exist. Nice to see the removal of my hugely popular post that confirms i was on the right track.

Hurry up Auldheid, we need to take this to our clubs without external influences ruining our chance.

====================================================================
Rab, I understand the sentiment and frustration but I’m not sure what you want TSFM to lead us to. She/he can only provide a space for discussion and moderate that as they see fit. I happen to agree with the moderation policy because I see no value in using the same kind of language used on FF/RM or even KDS and the footiemad sites as discussion often quickly degenerates into abusive tit-for-tattery. Your views above on messrs Keevins, Traynor and Green are perfectly clear without resorting to a single “Jabba”. Angus’ recent car-crash rubber-necking style obsession with the ravings of various posters on Rangers sites doesn’t really help (I know you’re working on that, Angus).

It’s a waste of time raging at Charles Green’s latest pronouncement because it doesn’t make sense/contradicts what he said 5 minutes previously/is hypocritical – we should examine why he’s doing this. There’s a good article in The Guardian today about Lance Armstrong’s news management strategy, here’s the opening paragraph:

“It would be nice to think that Armando Iannucci and Peter Capaldi are watching this week’s intense build-up to Lance Armstrong’s “tell-all-I-want-to” interview with Oprah Winfrey with wry smiles on their faces. As they did during his racing career, the disgraced former Tour de France star and those around him are adopting tactics which could have come straight out of the Malcolm Tucker textbook to salvage what they can from the wreckage.”

(Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jan/15/lance-armstrong-whistleblower-doping)

Charles Green is simply trying to control the news agenda for his own ends. Calling him any variant of his name and adding spiv to it doesn’t enhance discussion but recording, cataloguing and making demands of the MSM to challenge rather than be spoon-fed might make a difference. I suspect, for example, that Tom English’s recent scribblings on this subject have been informed by TSFM (if not he can post to say so).

Let’s not be brought down to the gutter level.

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easyJamboPosted on3:47 pm - Jan 16, 2013


I see that the Alex Thomson and Mark Daly roadshow at Napier Univ has been rescheduled to next week. Very limited availability of tickets for the public though (just 10 available to non students) I think Paul McConville was planning to attend the original event.

Edinburgh Napier Uni ‏@EdinburghNapier
@alextomo & @markdaly2 21st Jan @Mediamondays : ‘The #Rangers story’. Limited tickets available, please book here: http://www.screenacademyscotland.ac.uk/content-32

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The GlenPosted on3:50 pm - Jan 16, 2013


allyjambo says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 12:07

Neither of my two friends post on any Blog, as far as I’m aware. I’m not sure I could persuade them to do so!

I agree as regards being made welcome here. TSFM is one of the few places where opposing views are accepted politely. And it is all the better for that.

Regarding singing at Ibrox – I can’t speak from personal experience other than what happened there back in the early 1980’s.

If any songs being sung in any football ground are breaking the law, then those responsible should be held accountable. Ban them and then ban the next person doing it. Fine the Club. Do TRFC fear losing fans if they start to eject them from the ground for breaking the law? They might. But you would have to balance that with how many fans would actually stop going to games because they are not allowed to sing some songs. If they do, then they’re hardly football fans and would be as well spending Saturday afternoon down their local on the karaoke machine. It would have to be the right kind of establishment, mind you.

I suspect there are many fans who want nothing to do with the whole thing and would rather just get on with the game of football. But you would have to ask a regular attendee at Ibrox. I may be completely off the mark here.

As to my earlier post:

I’m certainly not looking to offend other posters here. Everyone is entitled to post what they want – I merely gave my thoughts on how I see things – if you think I’m wrong, that’s absolutely fine. It was only my perception.

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tomtomPosted on4:13 pm - Jan 16, 2013


theglen2012 says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 15:50

allyjambo says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 12:07

Neither of my two friends post on any Blog, as far as I’m aware. I’m not sure I could persuade them to do so!

I agree as regards being made welcome here. TSFM is one of the few places where opposing views are accepted politely. And it is all the better for that.

Regarding singing at Ibrox – I can’t speak from personal experience other than what happened there back in the early 1980′s.

If any songs being sung in any football ground are breaking the law, then those responsible should be held accountable. Ban them and then ban the next person doing it. Fine the Club. Do TRFC fear losing fans if they start to eject them from the ground for breaking the law? They might. But you would have to balance that with how many fans would actually stop going to games because they are not allowed to sing some songs. If they do, then they’re hardly football fans and would be as well spending Saturday afternoon down their local on the karaoke machine. It would have to be the right kind of establishment, mind you.

I suspect there are many fans who want nothing to do with the whole thing and would rather just get on with the game of football. But you would have to ask a regular attendee at Ibrox. I may be completely off the mark here.

As to my earlier post:

I’m certainly not looking to offend other posters here. Everyone is entitled to post what they want – I merely gave my thoughts on how I see things – if you think I’m wrong, that’s absolutely fine. It was only my perception

==================================

I was at the LC final in 2011 when the whole of the Rangers end burst into the “Billy Boys”. It is probably safe to assume that of the 24,000 singing that day the vast majority are still attending RFC games on a regular basis. That of course doesn’t mean that there are only 24,000 out of a crowd on 46,000 who sing it. Had Rangers been given a bigger allocation for tickets for the final then these numbers would correspond to that. To this day nothing has been done about it and that is what galls most people. It’s almost as if the authorities are scared or something. Whatever it is they certainly pay lip service to any law.

As for hologram Tam I don’t think even he would stoop so low as to forge tickets for Ibrox 😀

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Tartawulver

TartawulverPosted on4:33 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Guardiola has been confirmed as manager of Bayern Munich from next season in various news reports. Presumably this is only being announced today as he was snubbed for the Scotland manager position yesterday. Don’t worry Pep, you’re still young, you may get another bite at it!

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angus1983Posted on4:42 pm - Jan 16, 2013


jockybhoy says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 15:22

Re the free tickets – there was at least one image of such posted on the net, a ticket with a “zero” for the price. Perhaps there were just a few and there was a rational explanation for that, perhaps Hologram Tam has been doing a wee bit of extra-curricualr work from prision, I don’t know, but there was an example posted.
——

At least one RM poster has claimed he received 5 free tickets before he decided to renew his season book (was vociferously accused of lying, so either not many of them on that forum received same, or they’re keeping schtum).

Another said he received a ticket with £0.00 printed on it after renewing, but before his swipe card thingy had been properly registered.

It’s entirely possible that such stories have been extrapolated into many thousands of free tickets. Personally, until i hear otherwise with evidence, I’m not thinking that an inordinate amount of freebies have been dished out.

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troyblainPosted on4:47 pm - Jan 16, 2013


polled 3 people including yourself – which Rangers team were you polling about, the old 1872 or the new 2012 ?

it just sounds like we hear constant veiled threats, boycotts, marches whenever newco rangers hear something they disagree with, luckily, they have a sympathetic ear on the radio phone ins. If someone hosting a radio phone in stated RFC 1872 were now defunct, what would happen to him, what would we hear, I think its you that needs the reality check.

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on4:50 pm - Jan 16, 2013


LNS Inquiry.
==========

IIRC, it is scheduled for Tuesday 29th, January – just less than 2 weeks away.

If, for any reason, this was going to be delayed you would think that there be reasonable notice given, e.g. at least a week’s notice ?

So will we hear anything between now and Tuesday ?

If it is delayed, then for ‘transparency’ – rather than Doncaster – Ogilvie himself should read the statement to camera !

[They really can’t delay it…can they ? 🙄 ]

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easyJamboPosted on5:18 pm - Jan 16, 2013


BBC Sportsound are trailing that they will be having a debate on the impact of social media in tonight’s programme. Could be interesting to listen to the views expressed (as long as technophobes like Chick Young are not involved)

BBC Sportsound ‏@bbcsportsound
On Sportsound from 6:10pm all the latest Scottish footy news. From 6:30pm we’ve an indepth debate on the impact of social media on the game.

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goosyPosted on5:20 pm - Jan 16, 2013


27.5m floating charge held by Craig Whyte over the assets of RFC?
The known facts are:
The £5.5m asset purchase price would be reduced by up to £2.75m if there was a loss of transfer fees in player contracts before the end of the transfer window. This reduction will have been triggered when several high value players refused to TUPE from RFC to Sevco 5088 and onwards to Sevco Scotland. So Sevco 5088 will most likely have paid no more that £2.75m for RFC assets that were in the books of RFC at over £100m
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
We know that selling assets well below fair market valuation is illegal.
So was the RFC asset sale legal?
One way to avoid this charge is to “purchase” debt along with the assets.
There were at least 4 RFC “debts” that could have been “purchased”
Close Leasing floating charge (value unknown)
Craig Whyte floating charge (£27m)
SSC Standard Security over MP (under £500k)
Ticketus ST contract (£27m)
We know the SSC charge over MP was “purchased” as it had to be registered at Companies House by the company to which it was re-assigned i.e. Sevco Scotland
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
We can deduce that the Craig Whyte fc was also “purchased” as follows:
Sevco Scotland was publicly described as the owners of Ibrox and MP after the asset sale. Ownership was reassigned from RFC to Sevco 5088 and then from Sevco 5088 to Sevco Scotland. According to the title deeds lodged with the Registry of Scotland, the fc transferred from LBG to previous owner Craig Whyte is still outstanding over MP. So there is no doubt that Craig Whytes fc over MP was removed from the RFC Creditor List. However the MP fc is part of a larger fc taken out in 1999 before MP was built. It is not a separate fc in its own right.
Meaning
The Whyte fc over both Ibrox and MP was “sold” with the assets.
This enabled Green to claim that although he paid as little as £2.75m in cash he took on a debt of £27.5m This raised the value of the “consideration” to over £30m.
So what happened to the Ibrox element of the Whyte fc?
There is no record at Companies House of the Whyte floating charge being amended or cancelled. This suggests Whyte consented to apply a nil value to the Ibrox component of the floating charge after it was “sold” to Sevco 5088 but before it was moved from Sevco 5088 to Sevco Scotland.
Whyte also cooperated with Green by agreeing that RFC would change its name to “RFC 2012 plc.” thus freeing up the name “RFC” for Sevco Scotland
What did Whyte get in return?
He extricated his £27m fc from the liquidation of RFC and will enjoy whatever “interest” on this fc that he negotiated with Green

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Green may also have “bought” the Ticketus debt of £27m at the same time raising the notional purchase price to well over £50m.
Persuading the Green Consortium to buy out the Ticketus debt would be a very attractive route for Octopus to rescue their ST investment. They could afford to fund the entire cost of the Green bid and still be better off than remaining on the RFC Creditor List. We know Ticketus are on the BDO Creditors Committee but we don`t know the size of their debt. It may simply be the amount due to be paid in Jul 2012 perhaps no more than £7m

Its not a secret
The RFF representative on the Creditors committee will have access to the amount being claimed by Ticketus

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AuldheidPosted on6:00 pm - Jan 16, 2013


rab says:

Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 14:44

Are you worried or sumfin? 🙂

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andyPosted on6:06 pm - Jan 16, 2013


easyJambo says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 17:18
2 0 Rate This
BBC Sportsound are trailing that they will be having a debate on the impact of social media in tonight’s programme. Could be interesting to listen to the views expressed (as long as technophobes like Chick Young are not involved)

BBC Sportsound ‏@bbcsportsound
On Sportsound from 6:10pm all the latest Scottish footy news. From 6:30pm we’ve an indepth debate on the impact of social media on the game.

______________
chris graham will be on it

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andyPosted on6:11 pm - Jan 16, 2013


stuart cosgrove hosting it on sports sound

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pau1mart1nPosted on6:36 pm - Jan 16, 2013


if jim gets back on air would it be anti-social media ??

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TaysiderPosted on6:50 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Is Cosgrove going to let Chris Graham get away with his slating of RTC? Actually Chris, No to Newco was successful because it told us a lot of facts about what your club was up to that we wouldn’t have known otherwise. Get over it.

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on6:50 pm - Jan 16, 2013


On SSB a caller asked about Newco/Oldco panel could not really answer.
Next caller A Sevco fan quotes EUFA and FIFA ranking Rangers at position 88. Pundit then states the company is new but the club remains the same. FFS.

Who got liquidated?

What does liquidation mean?

Surely without the company the club does not exist.

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jimlarkinPosted on6:52 pm - Jan 16, 2013


impact of social media…

does it matter. discussing it in the studio?

the cretins on the radio, bbc and ssb and the churnalists still come out with phrases like.

…rangers will be back to spl…rangers will be back in european competion…rangers were relegated…rangers neco are the same as rangers oldco, blah blah blah…

no questions at all about minor anomalies, such as
between june 14th 2013 and august 3rd 2013 – newco had no sfa membership.

duriing the summer, newco could not play any “friendlies”.

a registered charity set up in the name of a football club, can play a friendly match, to raise money for – the plc football club!

out of all the consequences of the LNS investigation, only 1 “punishment” is ever mentioned –
“stripping of titles” – [it is not a “punishment”]

after breaking uefa/fifa/sfa rules – a scottish football club took the sfa to the civil court in scotland
– no action has ever been taken against that club which broke those rules

and

and

and

and

add your own, i’m sure all the internet bampots can remember an example to qualify the fact that new media has a role to play

but the MSM still peddle the party line, so there’s no point in “discussing” the role of new media if the facts and truth about certain issues are going to be ignored.

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TaysiderPosted on6:53 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Sorry, didn’t put that very well. RTC assisted a successful No to Newco by providing facts we wouldn’t have known otherwise.

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blantyreexilePosted on7:03 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Listening to the Radio Scotland debate on social media. Jim Spence came on late and made an interesting observation that he only gets abuse from Rangers fans. It would have been interesting to hear him expand on that, however Stuart Cosgrove decided to interupt with some unfunny joke about FollowFollow.

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SeniorPosted on7:05 pm - Jan 16, 2013


theglen

Your club are caught cheating on a massive scale. They wreak havoc inside and outside the game in Scotland, and yet you have the audacity to come on here and criticise bloggers who have not once in their lives cheated.
This blog is the mildest and most informative blog on Scottish football. If you find better let me know.
I bet a fiver you never once went on RM or any of the other poisonous sites emanating from Ibrox and chastise them the way you have come on here and done so – if you have I await the evidence.

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NawlitePosted on7:06 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Re comments earlier, I remain convinced that the decent RFC* fans are out there, but the problem is that they are being led down the wrong path and turned into something like those fans who are anti-everyone else because of the lie that has not yet been revealed by those who should be stating the truth. I am absolutely certain that decent RFC* fans are out there prepared to continue to support ‘their’ team even if they know that it’s not actually the same club. I believe they would quite happily continue to revere the achievements of oldco rangers and support the newco Rangers while they start to build their own history.

Regrettably, like all football fans, if they are led to believe there is a way they can still support their own (old) club, then they will choose to do that instead.

To do that, of course, they must believe the lie that oldclub legally became newclub and that is where the problem with RFC* lies. If they are the same club, as RFC* fans are being led to believe, then they can only percieve quite rightly that they have been treated abominably (out of the SPL, no champions league, loss of star players etc). It is only when they are told and can come to accept that it’s a new club, can they come to understand why all these things have been done to them. The authorities must do this.

That’s why, IMO, it IS still important not to be worn down and allow them to be treated as oldclub. If we do that, there will never be a reconciliation.

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NawlitePosted on7:13 pm - Jan 16, 2013


ohhappydayz says:

Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 18:50

On SSB a caller asked about Newco/Oldco panel could not really answer.
Next caller A Sevco fan quotes EUFA and FIFA ranking Rangers at position 88. Pundit then states the company is new but the club remains the same. FFS.
====================================================================
The European rankings are completely irrelevant. They are simply a record of how ranking points were awarded over the last 5 years. The RFC* ranking relates to the old club and it is right that the list shows they earned those points. They will simply disappear as earned points drop off year on year not to be replaced.

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on7:17 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Nawlite

Thanks for that.

You would think if you know that then the panel on SSB would not that and have the courage to actually state the facts.

Or as I suspect they do not that but fear and favour rules.

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on7:18 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Sorry should read
Or as I suspect they do know that but fear and favour rules

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troyblainPosted on7:27 pm - Jan 16, 2013


The biggest problem with new RFC fans is that they do indeed follow follow. They decent fans do not stand up and allow the wrong message to always be the RFC message. Why do they not stand up ? its the same reason why nobody in the media ( the one or two that do not have the RFC agenda ) is willing to say anything regarding RFC 1872 no longer exists. They would be worried at what such a statement would encourage.

until new RFC have fans that will abide by law and democracy then they will always be marginalised as a fanbase in Scotland outside of their west coast nrthern ireland bubble.

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on7:44 pm - Jan 16, 2013


nawlite says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 19:06

It is only when they are told and can come to accept that it’s a new club, can they come to understand why all these things have been done to them. The authorities must do this…
========================

Good point nawlite.

Whilst the recurring discussion about newco/oldco legal aspects etc. can become tedious, you are absolutely right, IMO, that it is the responsibility of the authorities to clear this up – and I refer specifically to the SFA.

Without this clarification wrt TRFC, the SFA is simply building up a serious pressure point.

We have already witnessed minor displays of ‘newco’ recognition at smaller clubs, re:
– the announcer’s reference to ‘the Sevco franchise’,
– the truth being quoted in a matchday programme,
– a small ‘140 days’ banner made out of A4 sheets of paper

…All fairly tame, but met with vociferous – and angry – outrage/complaints/threats from TRFC fans.

So, if the SFA continues to sit on its hands, what the heck is going to happen if/when TRFC is back in the top league ?

Every set of opposition supporters is going to give them a really hard time – by stating the truth !

…and the TRFC fans will be conditioned by then to react in their ‘normal’ manner.

So who is going to defuse this ? TRFC, SFA…nobody ?

This could be the ‘Armageddon’ Regan was unintentionally referring to… 🙄

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justshatered

justshateredPosted on7:52 pm - Jan 16, 2013


The Oldco/Newco debate should continue. The MSM should not be allowed to tell bare faced lies and not be questioned.
However in all of the debates that have raged since the summer still no one has addressed the question of ‘The Rangers’ back in the SPL spending loads of money on players not to mention their wages and the ultimate shortfall that this will cause.
During their last disasterous year they failed to qualify for Europe after August and that left a massive £16M pound hole in the budget. The question is how is this finacnial hole going to be plugged. I understand that the calibre of players will not be the same but, and this is where the problem lies, the fans are going to demand spending on a large scale. Remember the ‘we deserve better’ campaign of the former club when they were top of the league. The fans are not going to tollerate being mid table or even second.
If they do end up mid-table will the fans continue to roll up?
It could be a throw back to the former clubs existance in the early eighties for the newco.
Even if they do throw money at it and they win the league and the following season manage to qualify for tthe CL will it plug the black hole or will better players be demanded to play at the higher level.
If ‘The Rangers’ throw money at it and do not win the league and fail the following season in Europe then it will be Groundhog day all over again.
In some ways it depends how much of the recent share issue money will still be there when ‘The Rangers’ are promoted back to the SPL.

It would be interesting to read The Glens take on this.

How much money do you think does it currently take to run ‘The Rangers’ currently?

Based on season ticket revenue of about £6.5M how much of the share issue money will be eaten into this season?

Although the season ticket money will grow as the club climbs the leagues will it ever be enough to cover ongoing costs?

While we all have reservations one way or another regarding what transpired in the summer what would be catastrophic for our sport would be another collapse of the club. While some would say it would be poetic justice I think it would finally sound the death knell for football in Scotland.

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Humble PiePosted on8:04 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Facts are Facts

Let me make this easy for those hard of thinking football pundits, Rangers, the football club, was formed in 1872, incorporated (i.e. became a company) in 1899 and, after creating almost 140 years of history, went into administration unable to pay their creditors (including the tax man) up to £50,000,000 and were subsequently consigned to liquidation in 2012.

In summary, Rangers, the club which became the company are no more. Simple.

In the football business, the terms ‘club’ and ‘company’ are, more often than not, used interchangeably. This is a historical anomaly which has served simply in order to maintain the fan’s sense of ownership and belonging to the ‘club’. Despite it being the truth, no-one likes to think of themselves as a supporter of a ‘company’ which happens to run a football team. Whist utilising this transposable narrative is common practice and perfectly acceptable to both fans and the authorities, it is technically and legally a false description.

In law, clubs are really no more than unincorporated associations which, unlike companies, have no legal personality of their own. Just because a company uses the term ‘Club’ in their name does not in fact make them a club in the legal sense of the word. Just in the same way as if I called my son Prince, that wouldn’t make him royalty. A company can however ‘operate a football club’ although this ‘club’, having no distinct personality, can neither enter into contracts nor sell shares.

Rangers ‘history’ ended when the assets of the old club were sold to Charles Green and they were no longer able to operate a football club. It is only Rangers the brand that lives on.

The word ‘brand’, in marketing terms, comes from the rather dubious practice of burning an identifying mark onto the body of livestock to distinguish one group of beasts from those of another. In essence this brand became the recognised logo for a particular breeder or supplier of cattle to the market, making it easier for the buyer to identify and purchase on the basis of perceived quality and the reputation of the brand owner.

A brand identity is one of the most valuable fixed assets of any company yet Duff and Phelps sold this ‘asset’ of the old Rangers to Charles Green’s Sevco 5088 for a solitary knicker.

Contrary to Mr Green’s view, you can neither buy nor sell history, you can only buy and sell assets. Mr Green bought the Rangers brand and is using this brand identity to sell this new club to fans of the old club (though whether BDO find that it was undervalued and gratuitously alienated from creditors remains to be seen).

He therefore can go on claiming that he bought the ‘history’ all he wants because it is basically meaningless in both football and business terms.

And that is that.

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jonnyodPosted on8:09 pm - Jan 16, 2013


Re SSB
It’s no wonder the Sevco 2012 fans have an identity crisis with trumpets like Roger Hannah spouting duff at to ease their pain .
A caller comes on and says sevco are a new club as Uefa state new clubs need 3 yrs of audited accounts to participate in their competitions but Hannah minces on about ragers being banned for having an insolvency event ,then a sevco fan comes on and says ragers are banned for not submitting audited accounts ,to which RH duly agrees and all is well in La La land .
Ragers fc were banned for not submitting audited accounts but they were banned for 1 year .So why would sevco be banned for 3 years ,what had sevco done to recieve a 3 year ban from Uefa ,they have never played in Europe .
Sevco of course are not BANNED from Europe they are not allowed to play in Uefa competition because as a NEW CLUB they need to produce 3 years audited accounts .

Nawlite you are spot on when you point the finger at the SFA for this debacle ,you would expect sevco 2012 to say and do anything to keep the gullible believing this fairy story as the whole future of the new club depends on it and as for the MSM ,no need for comment but the peepil running our game should hang their heads in shame over this farce

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SeniorPosted on8:12 pm - Jan 16, 2013


BTW Andrew Wood @11.08

Should be compulsory reading for all those who suffer from a short memory. In fact it is probably the most concise take on the whole saga and, IMO, should be a basic reference point when ever this scandal is discussed.

Thanks to ‘Doc Blog’ for calling a spade a spade.

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neepheidPosted on8:17 pm - Jan 16, 2013


justshatered says:
Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 19:52
While we all have reservations one way or another regarding what transpired in the summer what would be catastrophic for our sport would be another collapse of the club. While some would say it would be poetic justice I think it would finally sound the death knell for football in Scotland.
=======
I’m sorry, but I have to disagree. It is the survival of the club that is destroying Scottish football. If the authorities had done their job impartially, there would have been no TRFC in senior football for at least the 3 years it would have taken to get the financial history required for membership of the SFA as a new club. That is what would have happened had it been any one of the other senior clubs, and I mean any. Being treated like any other club would have lanced the boil, in my opinion, and RFC would have returned in due course as a much healthier and even perhaps likeable organisation.

As things are now, the poison from Ibrox is killing the game. Sectarianism, supremacist attitudes, a culture based on absolute entitlement, all this is worse now than ever it was before. Because now they know for certain that no matter what they do, they will get away with it. That is the legacy of last summer, and the arrogance fed by this feeling of invulnerability is getting worse every day. I recall that back in the summer, some posters on RTC really expected that we would get some humility and contrition from Ibrox, in the wake of insolvency. Is there a single person on the planet who expects anything of the sort now? I thought not.

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