Guest Blog by Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan
Good Morning,
Can I start by wishing everyone who reads this blog a happy, peaceful and prosperous 2013.
In a few weeks’ time a couple of working class lads from Walsall and Wolverhampton will receive a reasonably sizeable cheque through the door. The money will be entirely expected and meticulously accounted for. A similar cheque will have arrived last year, and both will expect the process to repeat itself automatically this time next year.
The sum concerned will be sizeable—many thousands of pounds— and does not come from any insurance policy, institutional pension plan or other type of financially regulated investment. Further, in order to receive a similar amount next year, the two men will have to do precisely nothing! The money will simply come automatically!
Magic eh?
Well no—not really.
You see Neville and James ( for that is what they are called ) earned this money many years ago by completing a job of work, and they have been getting paid for the same job year in and year out ever since!
Except that you don’t know them as Nevile and James! No you may know them as Jim Lea ( who? you may say ) and Noddy Holder (aka Neville John Holder MBE ) the co author of that perennial Christmas classic “Merry Christmas Everybody”.
These two clever boys came up with their “pension” song by making a Christmas cracker out of tunes they had written and discarded in the past. Lea’s chords from years before provided the tune for the verses, while an earlier rejected composition of Holder’s became the chorus, and in this way it was the past work of both men that secured their future—even back in 1974!
As the song is played to death on Radio, in clubs, in pubs, in shops, on TV and everywhere else at Christmas, the New Year always brings a cheque of sizeable proportions for Messrs Lea and Holder.
However there were four members of Slade and not two, I hear you say!
Whilst that is correct, not every member of the band shares the royalties for ever more, with only the actual composers receiving the big bucks year on year — unless of course the gang of four agreed otherwise between themselves – as sometimes happens—but often doesn’t — in bands and other artistic collaborations!
And that, dear reader, neatly takes me to the current topic of the day on this here planet!!! The reconstruction, reorganisation and profit sharing in Scottish Fitba!!!
It strikes me that the SFA, SPL and SFL all want to come up with their own version of the pension song or product — Something that will make future performances interesting and lucrative for ever more without anyone having to put in too much effort in future.
Of course it is recognised that the clubs at the top of the financial tree have the greatest influence in composing this song, but there is an insistence, and so a desire, that even the minor band members should get a greater share of the royalties going forward.
All very honourable. All very interesting,— and all completely missing the point in my humble opinion.
Now, there is a clamour from the fans that the proposed structure of 12 – 12—18 is flawed and leads to daft consequences when worked through. We want 14- 14 – 14 say many fans or 16- 14 – 12 or some other composition altogether!!
Oh—and the fans want the chairmen to consult the fans before making a decision on anything, and they want Messrs Regan, Doncaster and Longmuir to stop telling fans that they need to be “educated” about what is best for the game!
All very noble! All very interesting, —and all completely missing the point once again in my humble opinion.
Jock Stein once famously proclaimed that football is nothing without fans— almost everyone knows that. Yet how many actually stop to consider those words and what he meant.
There is nothing without fans!!!!!
How many times have you heard commentators, journalists, ex players and even fans refer to the fans as “the paying customers” ? This phrase has made its way into common parlance and is rarely- if ever- challenged or qualified.
So I will ask—is that what the football fan is prepared to be called—“The paying customer”?— is that it?
Are you, dear reader, a paying customer?—and nothing more?
Or is a football fan a “member of a club”—a “ supporter of a club” or even “part” of a club?
If you are just a paying customer does that mean that anyone who turns up at a ground and pays over some money on a solitary Saturday afternoon is to be seen in exactly the same way as the guy or gal who has been a season ticket holder for years and years?
Does the person who sits behind their keyboard and blogs and comments for Britain on matters football—but who never goes to a game or who does not spend a penny following or promoting their proclaimed club – have the same strength of voice as that season ticket holder—or even the guy who stumps up the cash to view a game once a year?
Not a chance in my view!!!
Equally though, if you have a Football Club Board who do nothing whatsoever to attract people into the club apart from throw out a team on a Saturday Afternoon with mixed degrees of success – are they worthy of support from the “paying customer” or anyone else for that matter?
In my view the answer is no— a very loud —NO!!!
If we are going to reconstruct Scottish Football then I am sorry you have to start by looking at exactly what it is you are trying to reconstruct—reconstruct being the appropriate and important word.
The job is to reconstruct—and regain— viable and important interest in Scottish Football and the teams—or clubs—who play in Scotland.
League reconstruction is only part of that process, and the redistribution of television money is only part of the league reconstruction part of the process!
The month of January is named after the Roman God Janus—who had two heads— one for looking forward and one for looking back. Janus was the God of transition—The God of change— and it was always clear that you could only have change going forward by casting an eye back to the past—to see what you wanted to keep from that past, to see what you wanted to jettison, and to see what could be learned from past times.
In the past , football crowds were far larger, revenues proportionally bigger and closer together when comparing clubs, and consequently it might be said that the football product was much better on the park—with various teams outwith the two big Glasgow teams—please do remember the Jags come from Glasgow too and that in the past Clyde and Third Lanark were also natives— competing for and winning trophies.
Nowadays, football clubs have lower attendances—unless of course one of the smaller teams ( I refuse to use the derogatory and well hackneyed phrase that is banded about re smaller Scottish Clubs ) gets to a Hampden final when low and behold anything between 20,000 and 30,000 lost football fans appear as if out of nowhere!!
And hey—if you happen to be a fan of the Ibrox Club or the Parkhead club—don’t go getting too comfy in your seat— where the hell were some of you before Seville or Manchester?
The point is that football is like politics — it all means nothing without participation— real participation. That means fans buying into, spending money on and in, and promoting their club at every opportunity. It means the clubs and their boards using every trick in the book to generate income away from the football pitch. A “Club” in law is no more than a collection of people coming together for a common purpose and a football club is perfectly capable of having genuine “club activity” which does not primarily involve football.
Where are the regional and local initiatives to promote the social aspects of football clubs? Do the facilities for women need upgrading to help persuade more mothers and girlfriends to come to the ground whether that be for games or other events or functions?
In a time of never ending football memorabilia, how many people went to their club shop this Christmas and bought merchandise for family and friends – even if the same family and friends support another club? How many people invite visitors or non football supporting friends to a game on a Saturday—even if it is only every now and then?
In short what do you do to support your club—and what can that club do to get more and more people involved in the club itself or its functions? And what functions could that club become involved in using existing facilities and resources?
Is there a kids club? A weekday crèche? Are there facilities that are not used six days a week which could be used for community groups who have nothing to do with football—or even sport? Should the club hold daft things like race nights, bingo nights— functions that may well attract people who would no more likely go to a football ground on a Saturday than suddenly develop Noddy Holder style sideburns?
How many people take an old shirt or T shirt or towel bearing the club colours on holiday to give to a waiter or a stranger or someone who has no connection with the club—with a view to creating a fan or someone with a bit of interest who might just one day become a season ticket holder or even an occasional “paying customer” at the door?
Further, are there folk out there who could actually go along and volunteer services for their club for nothing and so save the club from spending hard earned cash out of necessity? Could you be a gateman? Could you perform a task for your club on a voluntary basis?
You may think that a daft or utopian ideology but sports clubs traditionally always had a social purpose as well as a sporting one. Clubs were a focus for a locality, or a workforce, or a congregation or just about any group of people who want to come together for sporting or social purposes. Further those who volunteered their services for the common good often got great local recognition for their dedication and spirit.
Ask any Dons fan about Teddy Scott—who although a paid employee was Aberdeen FC through and through—pay or no pay!
The clamour for change in football should not be blinded by the words of the three official bodies and the more vocal chairmen of the clubs that want to play in the league – or not as the case may be. Change should come from the fans of the game up—but to be honest until the fans—or should I say the mysteriously disappearing armchair fans—actually come out and support their clubs a lot more often, then we are not going to see valuable and worthwhile change no matter what the league set up or composition.
On Saturday, I listened to Off The Ball on Radio Scotland where the contributors waxed lyrical about journalists of yesteryear who made the game and broadcasting interesting. Jimmy Sanderson, Bob Crampsey et al – they all got a mention.
The discussion sparked a memory for me when they came to discuss the legend that is Arthur Montford—famously referred to by Jock Stein as “ The Sportsjacket” with reference to his never ending collection of blazers.
Arthur was a journalist—both print and broadcast— with the BBC and then STV since 1957 in terms of television—and with the Evening Times and other papers in terms of the written press.
A lifelong follower of Morton and a keen Golfer and golf commentator, Arthur has been retired this many a year although he can still be seen walking up and down Byres Road occasionally. At one time he became Chairman of Morton and he used to write in the club programme on a regular basis—possibly still does! He is by all accounts a nice man—a good man— sufficiently good and of sufficient standing to have been elected as the Rector of Glasgow University in 1975—beating George Brown and Janey Buchan ( if you don’t know who they were then look them up! )— in the process.
He was the first sports journalist to hold that post.
In his Rectorial address Arthur went to great lengths to highlight what can be achieved if volunteers— individuals— club members if you like— put their shoulders to the wheel and strive for change, for a common purpose, and for society in general. He stressed that such communal effort brought about change—brought about improvement— brought about advancement in numerous situations. This was only three years after Jimmy Reid had used the same platform to denounce the “Rat Race” declaring “ I am not a rat!”.
For football to change in this country we need action—action by the fans—action by the clubs—action by the journalists and commentators to highlight initiatives and opportunities for our football clubs to play a greater part in our communities— from kids to pensioners, from toddlers to mums and dads, local residents to occasional visitors.
That is the way to make your voice heard and to make that voice count. That is the way to bring about the change that you want for the future.
There were four members of Slade—but only two wrote the words and music to Merry Christmas Everybody and it is they who earned the right to the pension royalties for ever more. The other two bit part players did not!
Janus was meant to oversee transition to the future by casting an eye on the past and learning from what went before—as should we when considering Scottish Football—and in that spirit you will find a link to the whole of Arthur Montford’s address below— there are things worth learning there.
Here’s to the future—-NOW—– its only just begun!
http://www.universitystory.gla.ac.uk/documents/UGSD00029.pdf
shield2012 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 14:47
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OK, There is a team called The Rangers playing out of Ibrox in blue supported by largely the same supporters as before. I don’t think the majority of fans of other clubs would ordinarily have a problem with that.
What they do have a problem with is the new club – for it is so – claiming to be the same entity as the previous RFC but conveniently disavowing it’s debt and rule breaking.
They can’t have it both ways, but appear to want to – nay, expect to. The familiar RFC unashamed sense of entitlement and superiority. Fans of other clubs do find this a mite irritating in the knowledge that no other club would have such delusions humoured in this way.
If the company was liquidated (rather is in the process of being liquidated) and not the club, pray tell what other nefarious business activities this company was involved in that were separate from the club?
It wasn’t spending a tenner for every fiver, EBTs, Moonbeam spending levels etc by any chance?
You see fans of other clubs are being asked to swallow such nonsense so why shoudl The Rangers fans not be asked to swallow the truth?
IN any case our ire is more firmly placed in the direction of the media, who have scandalously colluded with the dog whistler and his recently recruited PR hitman to fill TRFC fans with all sorts of spin and lies to whip up a frenzy of false martyrdom. Unlike TRFC fans, the media are expected to provide anpartisan comment on the situation. I naively quaint notion I know.
It’s an explosive cocktail and one that needs defused by some reason and sense. Unfortunately none can be found in mainstream Scottish media. A damning indictment
I can’t buy this “club is an asset of the PLC” stuff. Another problem arises: a club has to file accounts. Why or how would an asset file accounts? How would the pie stall asset compile a balance sheet? How would the accounting equation Assets = Liabilities + Capital go? It doesn’t work.
They say that club value (going concern) = assets-liabilities+goodwill. If this is correct, according to the LNS formula the club is an asset of itself, and left hand side can never = right hand side. Is the accounting equation sunk without trace? Has anybody asked an accountant? (Are you there,Essex BC?) Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but it does not make any sense to me, from legal or accounting aspects, both of which I know not a lot about, by the way.
@ Shielsds ;
There is an awful lot that Rangers fans could and should have done.
1. Not accept it is the same club – pure and simple. demand that Rangers have Rangers 2012 on their crest would be a huge step forward.
2. Apologise to Scottish football on behalf of the club for the total shambles and financial doping that went on in the past regime and resolve to reform
3. Accept without question and adverse comment any sanctions placed upon Rangers
4. Applaud the spirit of compromise and bare faced manipulation of the rules that allowed you a club to support at all this year when the last o0ne died
5. Applaud the fans of other cl;ubs that you visit and have banners saying new Improved Rangers
6. Acknowledge graciously the support and help given to the new club by the authorities instead of supporting a man who feeds the baser elements of their support
7. Not boycott other clubs
I could go on
The Rangers fans – to a man- have done nothing to atone for the misdemeanours of the previous club, and outside of Whyte still back fully the cheating and corruption which allowed them to perform at the level they did over the last quarter century.
There is no internal debate amongst the fans about the nature of the club, no sense of acknowledgement that they were the chosen ones in even being allowed a team to support.
These wounds can never be healed. Scottish football is condemned to enmity of epic proportions whilst the present situation remains.
A lunatic illegitimate club and their fannsfoaming at the mouth raging against all the rest, even their saviours, against the rest of the fans of all other clubs, whilst the authorities and the MSM defy all reason and truth and defend the lunatic element even whilst that element virulently threatens and attacks them.
It is a recipe for disaster.
Scottish football could and would have survived without Rangers – easily and with minimal impact. It cannot and will not ever prosper or thrive whilst the Rangers as they are now still play within it.
The new paradox is that only a second liquidation event at Ibrox can now save Scottish Football – luckily this still remains a distinct possibility.
oldcobrokemyheartbycheating says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 13:28
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Go to Firhill – kids go free there.. 🙂
http://i46.tinypic.com/pogap.jpg
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=wrc8yx&s=6
i’m sure i read on here last month, that sevcorangers are not allowed to use the “aye ready”
as that logo belongs to a business that is in liquidation.
aye / naw ?
bogsdollox says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:20
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bawsman says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 14:43
Correction, just double checked £37…….STILL delighted with that, Man City fans had to pay £62 to watch Arsenal.
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So long as its under £62 you will pay up happily?
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No, that’s not my point.
My point is that (in my opinion) £37 is really good value for a Champions League game, I think £50 for a Non-Season book holder is expensive but I guess that price might just tempt some folk to buy sesson books next year.
I think my 3 match package for the knock outs was about £84, that is also a really good deal, it shows the club are looking after those who look after the club in these difficult times.
There is a lot of talk about empty seats for league games. Those pointing this out should be reminded Celtic are still in all competitions. It costs me a tank of diesel every home game (£65ish), at times it’s 3 games in a week. I’m fortunate cost is not an issue but a lot of fans will be selective where they spend their leisure cash in tough economic times.
Celtic and Man Utd were the only 2 clubs in the UK to have 500,000 supporters through their gates even before November was out.
I think the £62 is an outrage for a CL match never mid a league game.
Cost of attending football needs addressing but there’s much we need to sort out, we certainly have NO imaginative individuals running the game currently.
I feel I must re-itterate, I do not miss the Glasgow derby.
I do miss 3 o clock Saturday kick-offs for everyone.
I do miss not being able to stand at a game.
We should be looking at an earlier season start.
There are innovative areas we could explore with an SPL TV company, or BT.
Why not all kick off at 3 with one game being televised if we have the power to do that. Early kick-offs are rubbish.
willmacufree says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:33
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I can’t buy this “club is an asset of the PLC” stuff. Another problem arises: a club has to file accounts. Why or how would an asset file accounts? How would the pie stall asset compile a balance sheet? How would the accounting equation Assets = Liabilities + Capital go? It doesn’t work.
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That is just plain wrong, I’m afraid. A “club” does not have to file accounts. The company that owns the assets which constitute the club has to file accounts, just like a company owning a hotel, a pub, or any other business. Similarly, it is the company which pays the bills, enters into contracts, owns the assets, and goes into administration if the bills aren’t paid. A “club” is not a legal entity, and cannot do any of these things (including filing accounts).
By club I mean a football team owned and run by a limited company. Different considerations apply to a members’ club, but that is not what we are dealing with here.
iceman63 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:34
There are many posts similar to this that suggest Rangers fan’s ethics, morals and way of conducting their life, is somehow different to the rest of Scotland. I’ve even read on this forum that if Celtic were in the same situation, their fans would not have stood for it, they would have done this, and done that……basically done everything that Rangers hadn’t done.
It’s all too easy to take the moral high ground but in this fiasco, it’s gone to a new level.
I realise this response offers no purpose other that to urge people, like yourself, to get real!
Found this on twitter from Bob Smith Walker
Sums up SSB and true cowardice.
http://t.co/U3c3QlNV
willmacufree says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 14:52
blu says: Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 11:55
Blu,
What we’re talking about is the imho wrong assertion that authorities break rules to favour Celtic. I can’t remember it ever happening. The examples you give are not of authorities breaking rules in favour of Celtic.
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willmacufree, thanks for the response – fair(ish) point, you’re right I offered examples of creating rules to favour and embed the advantages to the two clubs with the greatest resources.
Celtic haven’t offered us the chance to find out what would happen if they went bust, as I’m sure you know and are happy about. I know that there is feeling among some Celtic supporters that if Fergus McCann hadn’t happened along just in time Scottish football bodies would have been happy to see the club disappear but we can’t know if that’s true. It doesn’t look as if the club is going anywhere near an insolvency event in the near future so speculating on any likley response to an insolvency event isn’t worth terribly much but I’m going to do it anyway – I think that SFA/SPL would bend over backwards to keep the other half of Scottish football’s economic engine in business.
I also believe that it’s the percieved financial benefits that drove the officers of the SFA/SPL/SFL to ‘accommodate’ a solution that kept a team playing at Ibrox. In my view they had no right to be so supportive of a club that had built up considerable debt, was sold for £1 and simply choose to stop paying its bills, except inflated players wages. The clubs of both SPL and SFL are complicit in this by not ejecting RFC from the SPL and inviting them into membership of SFL3. Money and self-interest beats fair play and principles.
shield2012 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 14:47
– I never said the oldco were still alive, I said you can’t expect Rangers fans to somehow say they are supporting a new team. It’s a ridiculous thing to say. Do you really expect them to say they don’t support Rangers any more they support ‘New Rangers” instead?………come on. In fact, I’d take it a step further, why would the sports media be expected to stop talking about “Rangers” and start talking about “New Rangers”? Just so it satisfies your need to here that they are dead. As I say, it’s ridiculous!
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I don’t think they should use the right terminology just to make a fan feel happier, but in the interest of accuracy and facts it might be nice.
Just to aid understanding of how difficult it is for the MSM in getting its communal head around facts related to ‘new shiny things’…
St Mirren moved to a new ground.
Despite greybeards like myself preferring to talk about going to Love Street, mostly we now don’t. Sometimes we talk of Greenhill Road, but that has a less romantic ring… we don’t much use the official title. ‘Going to the game’ will suffice. We can live with that.
But, the meedjah… well, they have still to get over the fact that St Mirren’s stadium is called St Mirren Park. Simply that. Same name as the now-not-existing, old ground, which is gone, demolished, dead. So…
Long live St Mirren Park! Like a shiny new monarch, the name remains the same.
However, the meedjah (tv, radio and print) all persist in calling it, NEW St Mirren Park.
I guess they know it’s not the same lovely old ground – in fact, they know it’s a new one so they feel it right to dub it, NEW St Mirren Park. Their folly has been pointed out many times, yet they persist. It’s petty, but annoying.
They have had exactly the same problem with The Rangers….
And I can see how they’ve communally addressed that conundrum. They’ve reacted to it in the exact OPPOSITE manner. The old club is dead, demolished, gone and there’s a shiny new one, but they won’t notice and just use the old name.
It’s not hard to deploy the word, ‘New’. They can do it.
neepheid says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:41
don’t doubt what you say….so
who holds SFA membership – club or company
who holds players registration – club or company
who pays players wages (i.e. who employs them, is registered as an employer and pays tax/ni) – club or company
if you don’t answer all 3 questions the same then don’t we have huge illegal registration and 3rd party payment issues?
oh, still doesn’t get around the company/club not having 3 years of accounts required to get into the league in the 1st place
It would appear that Hearts have cleared their outstanding remuneration default and have had their registration embargo lifted. But they are not Rangers, or TRFC, and so it’s not enough that they have paid up. Unlike The Rangers, who didn’t clear the debt to HMRC of some £14m, but still had their embargo delayed so they could sign anyone they could convince to play in SFL3, the embargo effectively remains for Hearts as they are only allowed to sign under-21 players until the end of the season. Now it doesn’t take a genius to work out that Hearts are unlikely to find any under 21 players who could enhance any SPL first team squad, because, at that age, if they’re any good, they cost money and want big wages. It is sensible for the ‘one out-one in’ restriction with reduced wages to remain in place, but why not just say, ‘you are not Rangers, you do not get any special treatment, so even though you’ve settled the outstanding monies, the embargo stays until the end of the season.’
I’m not suggesting Hearts don’t deserve this punishment; if taken in isolation, they undoubtedly do; but why weren’t TRFC also told they could delay their signing embargo, but could only sign under 21 players? In fact, in SFL3 that would probably have been quite a good scenario, both for TRFC and for some of the country’s best young talent – which is probably the only argument for allowing the signing of young players in these circumstances.
Let’s remember, too, the Rangers’ penalty wasn’t just for failing to pay bonuses timeously to highly paid (in real life terms) footballers, it was for bringing football into it’s greatest ever level of disrepute, by failing to pass on money deducted from highly paid (even in football terms) players’ wages and, even though they play in SFL3 now, it was handed out by the same SPL that has penalised Hearts. It was also part of the notorious 5 way agreement that they accept the penalty, and it could not have been delayed without both the SPL and SFA sanctioning it.
bawsman says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 14:43
Correction, just double checked £37…….STILL delighted with that, Man City fans had to pay £62 to watch Arsenal.
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Make you right bawsman…that is one of the benefits for buying a season….however I am disgusted that Celtic v Juve £50 tickets are now appearing on the internet for offers over £100…
iceman63 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:34
There are many posts similar to this that suggest Rangers fan’s ethics, morals and way of conducting their life, is somehow different to the rest of Scotland. I’ve even read on this forum that if Celtic were in the same situation, their fans would not have stood for it, they would have done this, and done that……basically done everything that Rangers hadn’t done.
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Absolutely correct and proven unequivocally when we mobilised to save the club in between 92-94.
We didn’t stand around with “we deserve better” or “step up and pay” banners waiting for a sugar daddy to save us. As we didn’t blame everybody else from the SFA, UEFA and the media to businessmen who happened to be involved in the organisation of a testimonial dinner for an ex- Rangers player for our own club custodians shortcomings.
Should point out my post above was in response to
shield2012 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:49
Not Iceman
shield2012 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 09:00
There is endless requests for Rangers fans to accept their club are “deid” as if it’s the best way forward.
What do you want Rangers fans to do exactly?………..if someone askes what team they support, are you saying they should say “I used to support Rangers Football Club 1872 but I now support The Rangers Football Club 2012″!
It’s a ridiculous thing to ask…………bizarre if you ask me.
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shield2012, agreed that there are diametrically opposed opinions wrt Rangers and oldco/newco/club, so to try from another angle…
If all Scottish football fans where now to accept/agree that Rangers are not ‘deid’, and the club is a ‘continuation’ of Rangers (1872)…
Then in your opinion, what should be the outcome of the LNS inquiry – IF – it is found that Rangers had improperly registered players over 10 years or so.
What would you consider to be suitable consequence – and what would be a suitable punishment ?
Or do you consider that any guilt should not be applied to the current Rangers ?
[To be clear: I’m not ‘having a go’ shield2012, but genuinely interested in your opinion on LNS inquiry.]
blu says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:52
Why bother with hypothetical remote possibilities when we can talk about Rangers having 3 players sent off at Celtic Park for misdemeanors including manhandling the referee and their manager involved in an unsavoury spat with his Celtic counterpart and the only individual the SFA chose to punish was the Celtic manager
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 16:08
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neepheid says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:41
don’t doubt what you say….so
who holds SFA membership – club or company
who holds players registration – club or company
who pays players wages (i.e. who employs them, is registered as an employer and pays tax/ni) – club or company
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The SFA membership is held by the company- that is clear from the fact that the RFC membership of the SFA was transferred from Oldco (a company) to Sevco (another company) by the SFA.
I know nothing about the process of player registration, so I’ll say nothing about that. Maybe someone else can help?
I do know a lot about tax, though. The players are employed by the company, the company is registered as the employer for tax and NIC, and the company pays the wages and accounts for tax and NIC. Please bear in mind that the “club”, not being a legal entity, can’t even have a bank account, so can’t pay anyone.
allyjambo
good point regarding the spl inconsistencies.
regarding old rangers/sevcorangers…
i want to know, which directors/ex-directors were involved with the case in the court of session.
the fifa/uefa/sfa rules were broken by the very act of going to the court of session never mind what the issue was about or the outcome.
i want tio know, why have the sfa, never taken any consequential action against the clubs/individuals involved in the civil case in the court of session.
StevieBC says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 16:37
I think this is where CG trips up a bit.
IF they are found guilty by LNS then I think Rangers simply have to accept the punishment. They can’t pick and choose when they are a new/old club to suit themslves.
Here is an alternative, less sevco friendly, report on season tickets;
http://i46.tinypic.com/pogap.jpg
Despite slashing the cost of the season tickets for 2012/2013, the omnipresent millions of The Rangers worldwide family have failed to support the new club in their vulnerable infancy. Season ticket sales of 38,014 being only 0.5% higher than the previous two seasons.
An “unnamed source” has said that the new club board is bewildered that despite having a reported 500 million fans worldwide, the club has only been able to raise £8,000,000 from sales of these tickets, which is the equivalent of 1.6p per fan.
IF they are found guilty by LNS then I think Rangers simply have to accept the punishment. They can’t pick and choose when they are a new/old club to suit themslves.
good try. They are a new club regardless of what deal is done between the SFA and Green
paulmac2 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 16:14
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bawsman says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 14:43
Correction, just double checked £37…….STILL delighted with that, Man City fans had to pay £62 to watch Arsenal.
……………………………………………………….
Make you right bawsman…that is one of the benefits for buying a season….however I am disgusted that Celtic v Juve £50 tickets are now appearing on the internet for offers over £100…
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Shop them to the club, they’ll cancel the tickets, no time for that.
shield2012 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 17:03
0 0 i
Rate This
Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia) says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 16:45
I’d simply refer you to your username.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think it’s been proved conclusively that Celtic supporters weren’t paranoid enough.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 13:25
2
27
Rate This
‘With Magners being very likely a brand that will be shunned by fans of Rangers, the shortfall will have to be made up by Celtic fans and others – something that is very unlikely.’
———————————————————————————————————————————
Have to agree with this bit noag, a drink so putrid it must be consumed through a pint of ice cubes! I never thought there was a more disgusting beverage than Tennents (cooking) Lager, but Celtic have managed to find one! 😉 I suspect it will be shunned by most people once they attempt to consume it without the ice.
A bit OTT, but hell we need a laugh at this bleak time of year.
>> New jokes home <<
Our favourite topical titters
There are no burgers left on
Tesco's shelves, try their
meatballs. They're the dogs bollocks.
And just remember, an HMV voucher
is not just for Christmas,
it's for life.
Courtesy:- Popbitch.
sportdirect , Mike Ashley to possibly buy naming rights for Rangers. LOL, I thought there would be beneficial reasons behind people investing in RFC and that looks to be the case. Is the ticketus deal finished ?
should be naming rights to ibrox.
smartie1947 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 18:23
1 0 Rate This
A bit OTT, but hell we need a laugh at this bleak time of year.
——————
Tesco have brought out a new range of special burgers, they are calling it Horse D’oeuvres.
I’ll get ma coat
” they are calling it Horse D’oeuvres”.
I’ll get ma coat
_______________
‘You mean ‘Hors de combat’
I had lunch in the Tesco cafe today. The girl asked me if I wanted anything on my beefburger so I had a fiver a each way.
troyblain says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 19:16
—————————————————————-
Heard the figure was £2.5m over 3 years.Can’t confirm though.
http://rangersfightingfund.com/
RANGERS Fans Fighting Fund announce tonight that they will be underwriting costs incurred in the battle to protect the club’s 54 titles.
The Fund are fully committed to defending Rangers’ history, which includes all honours.
Rangers fans have already paid in more than half a million pounds to the Fund and after tonight’s meeting a spokesman said: ‘It is absolutely crucial that Rangers’ titles remain untouched.
‘But because there has been a long-running campaign in the media and within certain other clubs to punish Rangers we must do everything within our power to protect the club’s proud history.
’Every fair-minded person knows where these titles belong and we will not sit back and allow anyone to have them removed.’
iceman at 15:34
An excellent summing up of the typical attitude of Sevco supporters. Funnily enough, I just read an equally excellent post on Aberdeen Mad this evening (copied from a Hearts board).
I fear you are correct in that the problems in Scottish football will only intensify as Sevco get closer to the top division. I, for one, have already committed to never attending another match involving them unless proper punishment is applied by the SPL , SFA and some degree of contrition is forthcoming from Sevco and their fans.
liveinhop says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 21:37
RANGERS Fans Fighting Fund announce tonight that they will be underwriting costs incurred in the battle to protect the club’s 54 titles.
========================================================================
I assume that means they’re anticipating being found guilty by LNS then?
shield2012 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 14:47
===================================
Without going into all the points of this particular debate I think shield2012’s assertion that Rangers fans won’t and can’t realistically be expected to call their club anything but “Rangers” is fair enough. I have no problem at with fans of the new club calling it Rangers. I have no problem particularly with the new club calling itself Rangers.
This in itself is fine by me.
I seem to recall a good blog post on this very site entitled “whats in a name”. I haven’t checked back but IIRC the gist was that Sevco/Rangers whatever should and will call themselves anything they like – and it doesn’t make them the same club either way (sorry for paraphrasing or if i got this wrong).
However what has caused a lot of unrest isn’t that the new club are being called Rangers by fans. media or anyone else its the insistence that it is i fact the same club when we all know it is not.
What should have happened in the summer is Green’s consortium should have come out and admitted they could not save the old club but that they can and will buy the assets, transfer as many players as they can and form a new team in its place. They could have promised that in time the new team will take up the same name, colours etc etc as the old. And at that point they should have asked all the Gers fans to stick with them, to support the new club and help them to keep a team in blue on the park in Govan.
The SFA should also have come out and stated that sadly as a new club Rangers will not carry the history of the old but that they full support the new club and would encourage all real Gers fans to get behind it.
If that had happened most people could look on this new club now and just be happy for all the Gers fans who are now going along an enjoying their new team.
Unfortunately instead there has smoke and mirrors at every turn in some bizarre attempt to deny reality. And from that situation, most critically of all for me, comes all the bad blood that we now see both coming from and directed towards the new Rangers club.
And while this situation continues so will the bad blood continue. Its actually very sad to see but inevitable given what has gone on in the last 6 months.
nawlite says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 21:56
liveinhop says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 21:37
RANGERS Fans Fighting Fund announce tonight that they will be underwriting costs incurred in the battle to protect the club’s 54 titles.
========================================================================
I assume that means they’re anticipating being found guilty by LNS then?
================
Indeed ! 🙂
Don’t understand the logic: although TRFC has chosen not to participate with the LNS Inquiry, the RFFF will “protect the club’s 54 titles” ?
Did they not notice that this ‘non-participation’ strategy didn’t work for Lance Armstrong ?
But I’m sure RFFF will still find some nice lawyers who can relieve them of their GBP 500K !
The RFFF thing is curious in many ways, but mostly in my view because they are inviting some kind of definition of their club’s status in law – which I reckon is NOT what they really should be wishing for.
Comments on that development are welcome, but I am now totally sick of listening to the endless mantra on here from people saying that “THEY ARE NOT THE SAME CLUB”.
Can I just say, “WE HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME!”
Notwithstanding what I said in the first paragraph, the New Club / Old Club argument is OT unless someone brings something new or even interestingly tangential to the discussion (like what I posted above). Posts merely arguing for either case with endless columns of reasons why/why not will be removed, because there is no winner to the argument – therefore it is pointless and inappropriate here.
Perhaps it seems autocratic, but it is what it is. The Mods spend enough time going through this stuff and reserve the right not to be depressed as a consequence of doing so. If you have read this and instinctively don’t like what I have to say, I urge you to stop posting – NOW!.
I am also concerned about the way people attack perfectly reasonable propositions put forward by a couple of Rangers fans on here. I don’t think the Shield is unreasonable in pointing out that for a rangers fans it would sound a bit silly to say he supported New Rangers.
The Shield has been engaged in civil badinage with others who have disagreed with him respectfully – and he has replied in kind whilst not rising to the baiters. well done to him for that.
There is no doubt in our minds that the quality of the blog has deteriorated blog over the festive period. I hope it can be saved.
Could the threat of legal action by RFF, probably using CG’s lawyers, be a way of him avoiding taking legal action against the SFA and the consequences that should arise because of that.
NOAG
I doubt even Green would hand over control of something like that to emotionally charged fans. Whatever else he is accused of, Green is not contaminated with emotion here. He is a clever, calculating guy (with few enough scruples to harness mob anger).
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 22:17
Unless the RFF are being stripped of titles I reckon they have no case to take to court.
[Edited]
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 22:17
Could the threat of legal action by RFF, probably using Charlie’s lawyers, be a way of Charlie avoiding taking legal action against the SFA and the consequences that should arise because of that.
============================
I don’t see how RFFF can have the authority to directly raise ‘any action’ whatsoever on behalf of RFC(IL)/TRFC. It’s just a supporters’ group.
But they could fund Charlie, again.
Or is this just sabre-rattling: SPL don’t do anything stupid or it will cost you in legal fees ?
A civilised prelude to the outright threats/intimidation yet to come perhaps ?
A quick point,
It is now a well-worn belief amongst the Rangers fans that the SPL is dying because of their absence. I know it is invariably a factor and may prove more significant in the coming years than this year but theoretically, should they be fasttracked back, or indeed never have been voted out, what exactly would that have changed? I honestly don’t get the ‘ now we’re no here yer aw humped’ thing…what does that mean? Were we not all collectively in dire straits before last year? The Old Firm only marginally less so. That those two teams were two big fish in a shrinking pond had never been addressed other than the ‘we’ll bugger off and leave you to it’ approach and it remains unaddressed bar the feeling that when they return to the SPL it will be very much business as usual – two teams continuing their increasingly turgid rivalry.
Surely the ailments of Scottish Football are in many ways due to the dominance of the Old Firm? I would be genuinely interested to hear Rangers fans opinions about what part they should be playing in reconstruction and how they hold the key to the survival of Scottish Football. What is the key? What would they have brought to this season as an SPL newco? What is the logic, if any, behind vague things like TV Money and Increased revenues? How do Rangers fans answer the question of how to reverse the decline in Scottish Football?
SPL Prize Money>
Fee payments to Clubs, after making deduction and/or adequate provision in accordance with Rule C4.2.2, shall be made as follows:-
C4.3.1 The remaining amount of the Commercial Revenues (“the Net Commercial Revenues”) referable to any one Season shall be divided into two tranches as described and paid to the Clubs as set out in the table in Rule C4.3.2;
C4.3.2 The tranches referred to in C4.3.1 are:
“The Basic Facility Fee Pool”, 48% of the Net Commercial Revenues, which shall be shared equally amongst the Clubs participating in the League during the Season in question; and
“The Supplementary Facility Fee Pool”, 52% of the Net Commercial Revenues, which shall be paid to the Clubs participating in the League during the Season in question in accordance with their respective league positions at the end of that Season.
League Position vs % Revenue
(Basic + Supplementary = Total)
1 4.0% 13.0% 17.0%
2 4.0% 11.0% 15.0%
3 4.0% 5.5% 9.5%
4 4.0% 4.5% 8.5%
5 4.0% 4.0% 8.0%
6 4.0% 3.5% 7.5%
7 4.0% 3.0% 7.0%
8 4.0% 2.5% 6.5%
9 4.0% 2.0% 6.0%
10 4.0% 1.5% 5.5%
11 4.0% 1.0% 5.0%
12 4.0% 0.5% 4.5%
***************************************************************
Perhaps someone can update us: are no attempts being made to alter these inequities?
TSFM
Im with you on this. Been done to and beyond death. Lets wait on BDO and NS the appeal and the court case. Then the debate may have more meaning.
TSFM,
I believe even decent RFC* fans will remain anti-everyone until they accept that everything that has been ‘done’ to them is ONLY because they are a new club. As a new club, there might be some reconciliation; without it only division. As a result, I believe it is important not to ‘let it lie’ (copyright acknowledged).
I don’t randomly post reasons why, but if I feel the need to refute an ‘it’s the same club’ assertion, either direct or implied, then I will.
If you respond to this by telling me not to post, I will respect that and go.
Senior on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 at 19:05
Senior, please accept my apologies for the delay in replying.
I’ll answer your post a bit at a time, if I may.
“Your club are caught cheating on a massive scale”.
I would have thought that it was for the LNS enquiry and the HMRC appeal to prove/disprove that statement. The proving of guilt is in the hands of those who are investigating Rangers actions. If they are found guilty, then they should be punished appropriately. As they will be for those tax cases they have already conceded. Each game any of those players took part in should be declared a 0-3 result. I’m pretty sure I’ve made that clear in each of my previous efforts. But what does it have to do with my post that you’ve taken issue with?
“They wreak havoc inside and outside the game in Scotland, and yet you have the audacity to come on here and criticise bloggers who have not once in their lives cheated.”
What does Rangers wreaking havoc have to do with me being audacious by posing questions or making comments on TSFM, especially when I criticise bloggers “who have not once in their life cheated”? I have no idea what the good or bad habits of any of the anonymous posters here are – cheating or otherwise. It doesn’t make any difference to me either – I respond to posts based on their content. Am I only allowed to criticise or question people who are dishonest? Who decides which posters are honest/dishonest? You? And on what basis – the football team they support? I made a post where I stated my perception of how I saw this blog. I gave my opinion. You’re perfectly entitled to question my post and state your own opinion, but in some way suggesting I shouldn’t have made it, simply because Rangers have done something bad and some posters haven’t, doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.
“This blog is the mildest and most informative blog on Scottish football. If you find better let me know.”
I agree 100%. I have found none better. See, we can agree on some things.
”I bet a fiver you never once went on RM or any of the other poisonous sites emanating from Ibrox and chastise them the way you have come on here and done so – if you have I await the evidence.”
I have no intention of signing up to RM (are you signed up there?) – if you think that I have more in common with posters on there, than I do with posters on here, you are very much mistaken. No one, not me, nor anyone, will persuade many (most?) of those posters to change their minds on anything. So, I won’t take your fiver bet (lucky me!) – but I would sincerely hope that posting on RM was not a pre-requisite to be able to post here. And I haven’t been to Ibrox in 30 years (preferring to follow Junior football, as I have stated many times), so no point asking if I get up on my seat there and ask why (a) some persist in singing illegal songs and go unpunished (b) how anyone has actually “kicked us when we were down” (c) what would their reaction to the Rangers situation have been if it had been another Glasgow team? Although I would certainly like to know the answer to those questions myself.
You seem to have taken my comments as personal criticism (and, if you don’t mind me saying, along the way managed to confirm some of the points I was making in the first place) – and have responded in kind. That’s fair enough.
We are all entitled to our own opinions – clearly we have differing ones.
No big deal. At least we’re being polite about it. I can’t see that happening on too many football related websites.
Feel free to reply (I don’t need to see any evidence of your posting on any other football related websites, so just bash on regardless), then we’ll leave it at that – no point clogging this blog up with our bickering. I suspect we can both think of more productive ways of spending our time. Maybe we can exchange Christmas cards at some point?
Maybe even discuss football – here, I’ll go first:
To everyone else, my “reality check” statement was specifically to do with a question regarding League Reconstruction – NOT this Blog.
The point I was trying to make was, what do the vast majority of football fans in Scotland think? Not those who shout loudest on the internet, those in the media, or those in the clubs themselves. I mean those X hundred or X thousand fans that turn up to every game in the lower divisions every week. Most of them never planning to see their club win a league or a cup. Or the larger numbers who turn up to SPL games. Some whose teams are unlikely to win the League as well.
Would these fans just stop going because they didn’t like the idea of league construction or the format decided for them? Or would they continue to go anyway? Do they actually care that much or is it just being sold as “if there is no League Reconstruction then Scottish Football is dead”?
From a personal point of view, the team I watch are having their league reconstructed – it probably doesn’t affect us much as we are lucky to finish 5th bottom every year (but that can also be looked at as 7th top) – I have barely heard a fan mention it. It doesn’t actually bother them. They will be there anyway.
Although I appreciate it’s much easier to listen to an average crowd of under 100 than it is at a better attended game.
nawlite says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 22:56(Edit)
TSFM,
I believe even decent RFC* fans will remain anti-everyone until they accept that everything that has been ‘done’ to them is ONLY because they are a new club. As a new club, there might be some reconciliation; without it only division. As a result, I believe it is important not to ‘let it lie’ (copyright acknowledged).
I don’t randomly post reasons why, but if I feel the need to refute an ‘it’s the same club’ assertion, either direct or implied, then I will.
If you respond to this by telling me not to post, I will respect that and go.
___________________________________________________________
Nawlite,
We simply don’t want to continue with what we see as a redundant thread. You may well have a need to restate what is the bleedin’ obvious to the vast majority of readers and posters on here, but I am sure there are lots of other places where that can be done.
I certainly hope that you continue to post on On Topic matters as your comments are valued, but OT comments will be removed.
TSFM
I appreciate that you don’t want us to all be heading up a one way street, and yes, a lot of material does get a bit repetitive, but unfortunately the same responses have to be repeated in the face of the same mantras.
LNS gets underway very soon. When the verdict is published there will be much more discussion about the legalities, the oldco and newco, and the repercussions. My own feeling is that its going to get too important to try and stifle debate about it at this juncture
Had trouble getting posts through earlier but here is a summary.
I note that there has been a lot of discussion with regards Rangers fans, which ones are decent, what are the rest up to etc etc.
Guys lets not get on at the fans too much. As the glen2012 implied the other day the average fan generally lives to see their team win and possibly hope to see their nearest rivals fail.
No, the problem at Ibrox then, now and possibly forever has been the management of the club.
While David Murray is to be applauded for signing Mo Johnston and ending that vile policy, he never had the bottle to do what really needed to be done.
The ‘decent’ fans won’t ever speak up and now we have Charles Green siding up to the worse ‘traditions’ of the club and that gives those in that mindset ‘permission’ to continue.
Like Murray, Green had (or even still has) the opportunity to the rebuild the club with an ethos and moral position fit for the 21st century. Instead its just more of the same.
As I have said before it is as if they get injected with something when they walk up the marble staircase.
Until we have decent minded courageous people at the helm at Ibrox the situation will never improve. It really is that simple.
Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia) says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 15:27
To a degree I understand where sheilds2012 is coming from. I don’t expect everytime I meet a Rangers fan for the first time that he spouts, I apologise for the sins of the past and I fully appreciate that this is a new team, etc , unrealistic. If we started to see a new kit and stuff with a new branding that to me would be a step forward.
What was it Gross Lloydman used to say at the start of his “Through the Keyhole” program?
“We have cogitated, digested blah blah”
Since the day and hour RTC and others were able to get the extent of the “problems” besetting a team formerly known as Glasgow Rangers(IL) into the public domain the counter campaign by the Smoke and Mirrors Firefighting teams came into play. To deny, deflect and debate the issues out of time and existence(they hoped). Their main aim(haha) was to dilute the debate with spurious nonsense to extent that we’ll all give up and accept a tawdry club/company as the same one.
Trolling I think it’s called.
Those with the privilege of running the sport by not acting on the existing rules of the game have caused, deliberately and ill-advisedly imo , the ills that are plaguing it today.
Glasgow Rangers are defunct. Those who wish a club with a similar ethos and outlook should have started afresh at the appropriate level. Surely better than trying to join the English set up at
what?, level 10 or so.
wottpi says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 23:50
I think that is a very good point.
And I would also say that those who still go to games, who I meet occasionally, are of the opinion that everyone is against them. Those friends who stopped going and who are happy to watch the team on the TV are much more in touch with reality.
There is a herd mentality – probably like most large gatherings – where people are unable to accept the truth, despite the incontrovertible evidence.
If CG sent out next years season book renewals with a note that anyone involved in any sectarian singing would be banned for life, and meant it, I wonder how many people would burn their season books as they did when Mo signed? However many there were, I would welcome them setting up their own team, in a one team league, playing in the back of beyond, where they can go along and have a party and leave the football fans to get on with the job in hand.
Parnnoyed 00:08
Close, it was Llyod Grossman
“Rangers may be invited to join the Blue Square”
Here’s my tuppence-worth ……… please please, for the love of all that’s holy, take them.
I have not enjoyed a season as much as this one for as long as I can remember. I have a renewed interest in Scottish Football like I haven’t known since the 70’s. I now care that Hibs have retained Leigh Griffiths til the end of the season. I care about Hearts financial problems.I know the names of Aberdeen players.
Its like a new dawn
Mr G and Mr Mc C may be trying to call our bluff on this (You will miss us if we go). Bollox to that — go and go soon.
Could we ask mods to change the donations buttons to a Dowry? Where we donate money to Blue Square to encourage them to take them off our hands?
briggsbhoy says:
Friday, January 18, 2013 at 00:04
Posted a couple of days ago about the phoenix club here in Chester, who started from the bottom of the pyramid. They are Chester FC rather than the now defunct Chester City. The kit has the same colours yet sports a new badge. They play in the same stadium however that has always been leased from the concil. There is a new sponsor thanks to the guy who kickstarted the whole process of getting a fan owned club in place. The fans still chant “city” even though that is no longer part of the club name. There are flags around the ground referencing past players and managers. Former players still get wheeled out at half time.
I have no idea about how they are documenting the history, and if new honours are being added to old. Though I suspect they are starting from scratch, but with a respectful nod to the past, and to the fans who have provided continuity, supporting their local team, in whatever guise it comes under.
I’ve got no idea where I’m going with this, other than Chester died, started again fan owned at bottom tier, kept the stadium arrangement with the council, rebranded club name & badge, and retain “history” as in memories and nostalgia, rather than silverware (if there was any)
briggsabhoy,
are spoonerisms batoo??
Here’s my solution. Lets get SDM et al in the same room as Oprah and get the titles stripped as per Lance. Questions need answers.
wottpi says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 23:50
Had trouble getting posts through earlier but here is a summary.
I note that there has been a lot of discussion with regards Rangers fans, which ones are decent, what are the rest up to etc etc.
Guys lets not get on at the fans too much. As the glen2012 implied the other day the average fan generally lives to see their team win and possibly hope to see their nearest rivals fail.
No, the problem at Ibrox then, now and possibly forever has been the management of the club
********************
No – the main problem at Ibrox has been the sectarian signing policy and subsequent political uber alles mentaility encouraged by SDM. As Theglen state aboves, if this were consigned to the rubbish bin, it would be the best that would have happened. Instead CG has encouraged this faction in order to sell STs and make more money for him and his fellow chancers..
Pravda still catching up but, despite Strachan winning the Scottish Premier Division twice, in 1979-1980 and 1983-1984, the Scottish Cup three times in 1982, 1983 and 1984, the
European Cup Winners’ Cup (1983), the European Super Cup (1983) all with Aberdeen, apparently he made his name as a player at Manchester United and Leeds United!
http://english.pravda.ru/sports/soccer/18-01-2013/123509-strachan_scotland-0/
In other news, Manchester United sign unknown wonderkid, Henrik Larsson.
briggsbhoy says:
Friday, January 18, 2013 at 00:20
1 0 Rate This
Parnnoyed 00:08
Close, it was Llyod Grossman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No it wasn’t.
Lance “Cheat” Armstrong
”I went and looked up the definition of cheat,” he added a moment later. ”And the definition is to gain an advantage on a rival or foe. I didn’t view it that way. I viewed it as a level playing field.”
I agree for once with him – I do not need any Lord or MSM to tell me Old Co cheated their way to numerous cups and tropihies and European nights, stealign money form other clubs.
It has already been proved.- Mr Red and his cohorts admitted it
Lord Wibbly 🙂
It was Lyod if you must
bunion ….spot on
I have one question to all sevco 2012 fans and I believe that if they answered it honestly then we could all move on and get on with the football .
Do you honestly believe that the EBT scheme implemented at Ibrokes for 10 years was loans for houses ,cars ,extensions LIVING EXPENSES (as one recipient stated) .or were they a schemes to pay the players for their services on the park .
Pure and simple question and forget the argument of ,but they can’t prove it ,so we are not guilty .
Just answer why you think the policy was implemented by DM at your club .
If found guilty of breaking rules by not declaring these EBT payments to players I think that titles stripped will be an inevitable consequence of the guilty charge ,yet they keep getting headlines on being the worse punishment that can be handed down .They are not the ultimate sanction but I believe that are the one that the sevco 2012 fans fear the most ,they keep telling us that they are the same club yet if found guilty their club could be kicked out of the game for 10 years of rule breaking .Of course they believe that expulsion is nothing to worry about and who could blame them after what has gone on since Feb .
IMO if found guilty expulsion is the only just punishment and if handed down the authorities have the chance to clear up the shambles they have allowed to take place ,would CG and the sevco 2012 fans demand that it’s the same club if they were to be expelled .
IMO they should not be expelled as they are not the club who had committed the offence .
Not wishing to inflame the controversy surrounding Mr Grossman any further but it was ‘Masterchef’ not ‘Through The Keyhole’.
wottpi says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 23:50
I wholeheartedly agree with this wottpi.
It would have been good if someone had made bold statements to fans to establish a new era. Unfortunately, CG is a businessman with investors behind him. Straying too far from the easy/known path would have been risky.
I feel sorry for McCoist actually as I feel he’s been lured down this path unwittingly. If someone had came in with positive ideas on how to project a different Rangers to the world, I think McCoist would have been just as happy, if not more, to go that route.
Also, when your battling for survival with ‘backs against the wall (well thats maybe how it felt), positive long term thinking/strategy is quickly forgotten about and the easy/known path becomes more attractive.
Ultimately, what I’m saying is, yes, it would have been good if someone strong had come in and done/said more positive things. It’s just not that easy under the circumstances.
theglen2012 says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 23:09
14 5 Rate This
I would have thought that it was for the LNS enquiry and the HMRC appeal to prove/disprove that statement. The proving of guilt is in the hands of those who are investigating Rangers actions. If they are found guilty, then they should be punished appropriately …
————
Yes Glen, since the authorities didn’t seem to have the courage to lay down the law they’ve technically washed their hands of the affair. So it should be fascinating to see what the learned fraternity come up with. Nothing would surprise me at this point. The utterly bizarre element is that the investigation is now about potential sanctions on a club in liquidation. Nevertheless, the history books must be set straight, one way or the other.
By the way, I know you referred to bickering, but your lengthy post was rather eloquent bickering.
PS My local team also attracts less than 100 fans. We were 75 souls last time before the winter break. I had the dog with me, so we may have been 76 🙂 Funnily enough, there was a Scottish connection recently:
http://www.clydebanklive.co.uk/drumchapel-danish-adventure/
Kilgore Trout says:
Friday, January 18, 2013 at 07:29(Edit)
Not wishing to inflame the controversy surrounding Mr Grossman any further but it was ‘Masterchef’ not ‘Through The Keyhole’.
_____________________________________________________________
Or both?
exiledcelt says:
Friday, January 18, 2013 at 00:54
No – the main problem at Ibrox has been the sectarian signing policy …
——
Surely this pretty much went out the window years ago?
Let’s face it, you wouldn’t get many non-Germanic European players who aren’t Catholic, by birth at least. Mr Amoruso springs to mind.
gazpops says:
Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 22:39
Were we not all collectively in dire straits before last year? The Old Firm only marginally less so
——————————
FFS Gazpops….Newsflash….one half of the “old firm” went bust owing millions
TSFM
I agree that Mr Grossman was in both shows but the ‘deliberated, cogitated and digested’ catchphrase was from his Masterchef incarnation.
Perhaps it’s best if we move on from this before someone claims that they are both, in fact, the same programme!
shield2012 says:
Friday, January 18, 2013 at 08:19
Hear what you say but the comments over the last year from the likes of Jardine , McCoist, Smith and Green all show they are not men of courage or honour when it comes to change. Yes they stood there and took the brunt of it when otjhers went missing but that was their opportunity and they blew it by reverting to ‘type’.
I always thought Jardine was mild mannered and a gent and McCoist was that cheekie chappie but both let the mask slip. they are both intelligent men and decided to take up a certain stance and role which tied in with all the worst traditions of the club. They have all been around long enough to know what they were doing and what the consequences were.
What was to stop McCoist coming out and saying something along the lines of
” I am the Rangers manager and I do not do walking away. However the club has been on the brink of disaster and I am going to give it my all to rebuild the club in a manner that respects the past homours won on the pitch but also recognised the mistakes of the past. I therefore,want to ensure we never fall back into the old ways that have given people plenty of rope to criticise us. I now commit myself to working day in day out to run the club on a sustainable financial model, fit for the modern game and be seen as an open and progressive leader in Scottish Football. It will not be easy and there are many hurdles still to cross but with belief and passion I believe we can rebuild the club to once again be successful on the pitch at home and abroad. I hope that, like me, you will not walk away from this challenge but join me in this revolutionary vision.”
I have never liked Smith and behind all that quiet dignified cardigan wearing persona there is a died in the wool Rangers man stuck in using the old traditions and methods to get results and while he knows his football I still don’t think he is a very good coach in terms of the modern game.
Green is just an opportunist businessman who would sell his granny.