From the TSFM Manifesto š
A spectre is haunting Scottish Football ā the spectre of Sporting Integrity. All the powers of the old firms have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Billy and Dan, Blazer and Cassock, Record and Sun, Balance Sheet and P&L.
Where is the football fan in opposition to these that has not been decried as a “sporting integrity bampot” by his opponents in power?Two things result from this fact:
I. Sporting Integrity is already widely acknowledged to be itself a power for good.
II. It is high time that Lovers of Sport should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Sporting Integrity with a manifesto of fair play.
To this end, Lovers of Sport of various partisanship have assembled on TSFM and sketched their manifesto, to be published on tsfm.scot.
Those who love sport though are challenged not just by the taunts of the monosyllabic automatons in the MSM, but by the owners of our football clubs who have displayed an almost total disregard to our wish to have a fair competition played out in the spirit of friendly rivalry. In fact the clubs, who speak those fine words, are not nearly as outraged as we are by the damage done to the integrity of the sport in the past few years .
In fact the term Sporting Integrity has become, since the latter stages of the Rangers era, a term ofĀ abuse; a mocking soubriquet attached to those who want sport to be just that – sport.
Sporting integrity now lives in the same media pigeon-hole as words like Islam, left-wing, militant, Muslim – and a host of others; words which are threats to the established order now set up as in-jokes, in order to reduce the effectiveness of the idea.
In fact, a new terminology has evolved in the reporting of football by both club officials and The Succulent Lamb Chapel alike;
“.. Sporting Integrity but …”.
For example
“We all want sporting integrity, but finance is more important”
Says who exactly?
Stated in such a matter of fact way that the obvious question is headed off at the pass, it is sometimes difficult to re-frame the discussion – perhaps because crayon is so hard to erase?
This is the backdrop to The Scottish Football Monitor and the world in which we live. Often the levels of scrutiny employed by our contributors are far in excess of any scrutiny employed by the MSM. Indeed our ideas and theories are regularly plagiarised by those very same lazy journalists who lurk here, and cherry-pick material to suit their own agendas; regularly claiming exclusives for stories that TSFM and RTC before us had placed in the public domain weeks earlier.
This was going to lead into a discourse about the love of money versus the love of sport – of how the sacred cows of acquisitiveness, gate- retention and turnstile spinning is far more important to the heads of our football clubs (the Billys, Dans and Blazers of the intro) than maintaining the traditions of our sport.
However events of Friday 14th November have given me cause to leave that for another day. The biggest squirrel of all in this sorry saga has always been the sleight of hand employed instil a siege mentality in the Rangers fans. The press have time and again assisted people (with no love of football in general or Rangers in particular) to enrich themselves – legally or otherwise – and feed on the loyalty of Rangers fans.
A matter for Rangers fans may also be the identity of some of those who had their trust, butĀ who also assisted the Whytes and Greens by their public statements of support.
Our contention has been that rules have been bent twisted or broken to accommodate those people, the real enemies of the Rangers fans – and fans everywhere.
Through our collective research and group-analysis of events, we have also wondered out loud about the legality of many aspects of the operating style of some of the main playersĀ in the affair. That suspicion has been shared most notably by Mark Daly and Alex Thompson, but crucially now appears to be shared by Law Enforcement.
I confess I am fed up with the self-styled “bampot” epithet. For the avoidance of doubt, the “bampots” in this affair are those who have greater resources than us, and access to the truth, but who have lacked either the will orĀ theĀ courage or the imagination to follow it through.
We are anything but bampots. Rather, weĀ have demonstrated that the wisdom of the crowd is more effective by far than any remnants of wisdom in the press.
I have no doubt that the police investigation into this matter is proceeding in spite of great opposition in the MSM and the Scottish Football Authorities – all of whom conspired to expose Rangers to the custodianship of those for whom football is a foreign language.
I have no doubt that the constant exposition of wrong-doing on this blog, in particular the questions we have constantly raised, and anomalies we have pointed out, has assisted and enabled the law enforcement agencies in this process.
If we are to be consistent in this, our enabling of the authorities, we MUST show restraint at all times as this process is followed through. People who are charged with a crime deserve to be given a fair trial in the absence of rumour or innuendo. We must also, if we are to continue as the spectre which haunts the avaricious – and the real bampots – be seen to be better than they, and give them no cause to accuse us of irresponsibility.
This affair has now evolved way beyond one club gaining unfair advantage over others. For all the understandable Schadenfreude of many among us, the real enemy is not Rangers, it is about those who enabled and continue to enable the farce at Ibrox.
This is now about systematic cheating at the heart of the Scottish game (in the name of cash and in spite of lip service to sporting integrity), and how the greed of a bunch of ethically challenged officials allowed another group of ethically challenged businessmenĀ free rein to enrich themselves at the expense of the fans.
Whether laws were broken or not, theĀ players at Rangers have come and gone and are variables, but the malignant constant at the SFA and SPFL are still there. Last night, even after the news that four men had been arrested in connection with the takeover at Ibrox in 2011, they were gathered together at Celtic Park with their Irish counterparts, tucking into succulent lamb (perhaps) and fine wines, doing someĀ back slapping, makingĀ jokes about the vulgarities of their fans, bragging about the ST money they have banked.
The revolution won’t be over until they are gone, and if they remain, it is Scottish Football that will be over.
Deff Rosebury Park! Brings back memories watching Holyrood play there.
ecobhoy says:
December 5, 2014 at 10:30 pm
I can only apologise if I have not made myself clear.
It would be utterly reprehensible and irresponsible if the SFA were to engage the police in an investigation as a result of a complaint made directly and exclusively to them.
It is a matter that should be respectfully limited to the wishes of the individual concerned.
The efficacy of the SFA in dealing with serious complaints as things stand is neither here nor there.
An individual has brought their case forward through a recognised complaints procedure.
Taking it further is fraught with difficulties.
As it stands all that has been asked is that the SFA apply their rules.
I would encourage and support anyone to report a crime to the police but I fully understand and respect those who chose not to when the prospect of harm outweighs any prospect of justice.
The SFA have been presented with a specific case.
It would be wrong of them to raise the matter with any other authority without the approval of the individual who raised the complaint.
Castofthousands says:
December 5, 2014 at 9:50 pm
6 0 Rate This
Matty Roth says:
December 5, 2014 at 5:34 pm
āIām not the most eloquent or clear thatās for sure. Something just didnāt site right with me and Iāve tried to explain the other side of the coin that might be well to keep in mind but Iāve clearly failed pretty badly at that!ā
āāāāāāāāā
I thought your earlier contribution added greatly to the debate.
=============
Castofthousands, I think you are in a fairly small minority there!
Never mind, the whole situation will be dealt with in due course and hopefully there are no undeserved repercussions for anyone and we can all move on.
Whatever happens it does seem to reveal another weakness in the SFA’s system so not sure how they tackle that. They can’t create a legal process thats as robust as a courtroom – they simply don’t have the money to do so.
The sad aspect is that both players are clearly going to be affected no matter the outcome now and there is at least one and possibly two innocent parties. I’ve read that Logan has been subject of further racist abuse in social media since the celtic game for example.
Martin says:
December 5, 2014 at 11:42 pm
2 0 Rate This
===============
You make some excellent points Martin.
ecobhoy says:
December 5, 2014 at 9:32 pm
19 11 Rate This
lagerbeer says:
December 5, 2014 at 8:11 pm
Vincent Lunny gave on Reporting Scotland the other night. Lunny explained in detail the compliance process that is followed is applicable to ALL clubs that signed up to it. Due process was followed and a 7 match ban allotted to the Celtic player. Lunny explained that all the clubs agreed that āā¦on the balance of probabilityā was acceptable to all clubs.
My despair on this is that Celtic cannot accept to play by the rules they signed up to and have their manager and players making comments in the media. Derek McInnes and Aberdeen have maintained a dignified silence ā why canāt Celtic.
The parallels with Liverpool and Suarez are all to clear; and in that case, if you step back and think about it then it really doesnāt matter at all about the āhe said, he saidā argument.
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Well IMO itās quite clear you have a closed mind on the issue. There are many issues I could take odds with when it comes to Lunney however heās gone and of no longer of any relevance.
=========
eco,
Fair enough, we’ll agree to disagree. You won’t change my mind, I won’t change yours. Sad that the whole affair has dragged out since September with no final resolution yet.
[]
Matty Roth says:
December 6, 2014 at 12:05 am
Thanks for that. I try to be fair, reasonable and informed when I post a comment. I don’t always (or even often) get things right, but I do try.
crawford says:
December 5, 2014 at 11:11 pm
I think youre right.
Rosebury Parkā¦ā¦in Rosebury Street?..
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Rosebery Park.
As a 10 year old I played in a schools cup final there.
In hindsight, it was crazy for wee kids of that age playing on such a huge pitch.
But it was exciting, playing in a ‘stadium’.
You can get more info / photos at the link below.
The site is really interesting for viewing photos of old Glasgow.
http://urbanglasgow.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=105297
I think we are all agreed on the severity of the conduct of which Tonev is accused. I firmly believe that it is the very severity of the allegation which ought to preclude the SFA from being the adjudicating and investigating body.
We would not presume such a body to investigate other serious crimes. It simply seems absurd that an accusation which can only be viewed as a serious criminal matter can be investigated by nothing more than the equivalent of a company’s internal disciplinary procedures. We would not condone such an investigation into an allegation of sexual assault or any other major crime.
For me, I have enormous sympathy for Shay Logan. He has had the courage to report a serious criminal offence to what he feels is a relevant authority. It is that authority which has failed to recognise the full implications of this revelation on all concerned and its own limited powers to deal justly with it.
I work in an educational institution and I have seen in my career similar examples of hubristic behaviour by internal authorities seeking to outdo their powers, usually with end results which add to the injustice suffered by the claimant of the original offence.
The SFA process in this instance may be well intentioned but is fundamentally inadequate.
The fact that this debate is taking place at all shows that its limited powers are insufficient to adjudicate on such weighty issues.
If the complaint is ultimately deemed to be unprovable because of lack of corroboration then it represents a genuine setback for those victims of hate crimes but if Tonev is found guilty of what is effectively a crime and what is indisputably unacceptable conduct for a professional football player on the basis of uncorroborated evidence from one source then a severe injustice will have been perpetrated.
There is no prospect of any satisfactory outcome within the disciplinary process currently being undertaken and that ought to have been clear to the SFA from the outset. Both the Suarez and Terry cases which were shambolically handled by the FA ought to have served as warning to the SFA.
Some crimes are too serious and/or too profound in their implications for anything other than official legal authorities to investigate , regardless of the wishes of the complainant.
This is patently such a case.
There are interesting ideas about restructuring football here. I found this on another site and apologies if it has been posted before.
https://t.co/LNYlqohyHR
Matty Roth says:
December 5, 2014 at 5:34 pm
=================================
You continually use the word ‘forced’ regarding any potential upholding of the appeal by Tonev. My reading of that it is you believe they would be wrong to do so, and would only do so under duress. Please share with us your wider knowledge of this incident that no-one else seems to know!
Smugas says:
December 5, 2014 at 11:09 pm
8 0 Rate This
Joking apart, and I promise this isnāt yet another rangers bashing thing but I genuinely said to a pal when we watched some of the rangers Kilmarnock match (we were painting and this filled the vital Tbreak gap) and commenting on the low crowd I genuinely said its as if theyāve overdubbed some atmosphere! Do they actually do that Danish?
———
Morning Smugas, I heeded the wise words of Zebadee last night and missed your post. (There’s only so much Tonev/Logan conjecture you can read šÆ ) The answer is, I don’t know. I think it was ianagain’s point. But why not? When processing audio there are loads of smoke and mirrors that you can use to enhance/filter sound so it wouldn’t surprise me. Also depends on which mics you use and their placement. It would bother me, though, if it was canned sound ā as in canned laughter ā which is the ultimate turn off fakery š®
Castofthousands says:
December 5, 2014 at 9:39 pm
iceman63 says:
December 5, 2014 at 2:04 pm
āThis is a criminal act that Tonev has been accused of. All evidence should be gathered and investigated by prosecuting authorities.ā
āāāāāāāāāā
With greatest respect iceman, I canāt agree with your conclusion. There are all sorts of minor assaults that occur in sport that might be deemed actionable in a civil environment but which nevertheless are routinely considered by sports disciplinary bodies. If ant particular infringement were so serious that legal authorities felt it necessary to get involved then that is their prerogative. However sportās disciplinary bodies have a primary responsibility for their sport and must police it as they see fit.
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@ castofthousands – With respect I don’t believe on past record that the SFA will put the wider requirements of Scottish Society above the needs of the secretive and corrupt cabals that govern football in our country.
Such is their level of corruption that they don’t even care about Scottish Football as a whole; have no interest in what fans want and couldn’t care less about the vast majority of clubs except for providing competition fodder.
I would think that every open-minded poster on this site is well aware of the stench that emanates fromm Hampden and we frequently rail against it and demand the whole kit and caboodle is dismantled and replaced by a fit for purpose impartial organisation.
As to all the minor ‘assaults’ that take place on a football field the vast majority of these aren’t assaults in the legal sense because there is no intention to do physical harm and the behaviour isn’t reckless enough to comprise a criminal act.
Football is a physical, contact sport with the participants doing so voluntarily. For all of these reasons incidents which might see arrest and conviction if they happened on a public street between strangers are dealt with in the footballing arena within the SFA Rules.
I simply believe that racism is too serious a crime to be dealt with by footballing authorities who, as we know, often have hidden agendas and priorities. Racism is a criminal offence no matter where the act takes place.
I can’t see a single footballer taking to the field voluntarily accepting that he could be racially abused. So IMO it just isn’t on equating it with the run of the mill on field squabbles that sometimes end-up before an SFA Tribunal. By then no one – at least in officialdom – wants it there and the trifling penalties dished out – even to ingrained thugs that everyone of us can name – do absolutely nothing to change the culture.
That’s why IMO must be taken away from the suits – I find it amazing at the amount of posters in this case who suddenly seem to think that the SFA Rules and system of governance is A1 OK. If it is then that’ll be a first.
This issue goes far beyond the immediate case of Tonev/Logan IMO and too serious to be left to the SFA and the culture it exists in.
I have said before but will repeat that ‘Balance of Probabilities’ is used in civil law and the various offshhots that spring from it such as SFA Discipilanry and Appeal Hearings.
That test is not the much higher one demanded by the criminal courts which demands guilt must be proven ‘Beyond all Reasonable Doubt’. Racism is a criminal offence and should, where possible, be tried in the criminal courts and not by the SFA.
The problem with the current case IMO isn’t what was said or wasn’t said or how it was heard and interpreted. The problem is there is no independent witnesses that have been identified. That doesn’t mean there were none.
And in many ways it might be more important – than the actual exchange between the two players – exactly how the SFA conducted their initial investigation to establish if there were any witnesses. I also happen to believe that the cops conducting the same exercise were much more likely to find a witness or witnesses.
So, as it is, we are left with accuser and accused both rejecting each other’s position and apparently there is no area that allows any confusion as to what was said or heard – yet no one else on the field heard either party.
From this a tribunal has determined that one party is guilty on the balance of probabilities. I genuinely puzzle at that decision when it appears that there are only two witnesses to an alleged incident who recount directly opposing versions of events.
I have watched many judges and juries make horrendous errors when they have decided innocence or guilt not on the actual evidence but in the manner it is given and I don’t just mean by the accused.
I don’t know if that applied in this case and I don’t even know if any of us will ever know that. What I do know for certain is that serious miscarriages of justice take place day and daily and they aren’t all correctly resolved through the criminal appeal system.
I should make it clear that I don’t simply refer to innocent accused being convicted but also of guilty ones wrongly walking free. That I’m afraid is the price of Justice and Society generally finds it acceptable. Things change of course when you are the person standing in the dock and know you are innocent but go down for the crime.
I am trying not to tie this into the Tonev/Logan issue and look at the wider issues for society. No matter the final result the two players will move on and possibly leave Scotland.
Will anything change? I doubt it as long as we as a society are preapred to accept that racism within a football stadium is just a wee idiosyncratic part of the game and not really a criminal offence.
That could be the lasting legacy of this case and that really would be a tragedy – not just for football but more importantly for Scotland as a whole.
weeman says:
December 5, 2014 at 1:20 pm
######
The ban was on the consumption of alcohol within football grounds, or the hoovering of a carry-oot for 90 minutes.
As someone who spent their callow, spotty youth standing on terracing I vividly recall pish literally cascacading down (and was then partly absorbed by my Lionel blairs), inadequate toilets provided no alternative to simply relieving oneself where you stood.
On completion of a beverage the bottle was either left to roll about, lobbed with bullingdoneasque disregard into the opposing supporters or amongst fellow fans. A can could be used, after levering the top off with a ten Bob bit, as a substitute urinal. This was also regularly lobbed down the front. As a small teenager, I lived to regret wearing my nylon parka with the generous hood!
Going home after the game, regardless of the quality of football, the overriding olafactory memory was of stale pish.
If you treat people like animals that’s how they behave. Provide decent facilities and people respond in a civilised way.
valentinesclown says:
December 6, 2014 at 7:36 am
There are interesting ideas about restructuring football here. I found this on another site and apologies if it has been posted before.
https://t.co/LNYlqohyHR
==========================================================
I haven’t seen it before. And you’re right it’s very interesting and especially the breadth of issues covered.
Thought-provoking and well worth a read.
StevieBC says:
December 6, 2014 at 3:05 am
4 0 Rate This
I played at Rosebery Park a few times both for Glasgow schools & Eastercraigs. Generally kept for cup finals, representative games & big(ish) matches at schoolboy level…….very exciting it was too although my memory plays tricks with me as it was 30 years ago šÆ
davythelotion says:
December 6, 2014 at 9:00 am
As someone who spent their callow, spotty youth standing on terracing I vividly recall pish literally cascacading down
======================================================
Ah…that’s triggered a flashback to the seventies…when the back of the Shed at Tannadice doubled as a urinal…to add to the loveliness the terracing would already be covered in the excess grease poured from the dreaded Tannadice pies,either by splitting the pie in half(which was risky as the ‘mince’ stood a good chance of escaping at the same time) or by pressing hard on the pie so that the grease shot out the wee hole in the top…
On a cold day I could swear that you’d see a foul miasma rising over the Shed by the start of the second half.
Thank god you were allowed to change ends in those days and that United preferred to kick downhill to the Arklay St end in the second half…can’t have been much fun for the away fans in the second half though… š
davythelotion says:
December 6, 2014 at 9:00 am
1 0 Rate This
———–
Good point Davy. The clouds of urine vapour from behind the main enclosure at Ibrox is a memory of mine! My older brother not only got me a lift but placed me on a kind of girder ledge at the back on the enclosure. Great view of the pitch, but you could also look out behind the enclosure as those in need of a beer-induced Jimmy Riddle went about their business š®
No wonder you hardly ever saw women at matches.
But why is it just alcohol that’s mentioned as a much-needed re-innovation? I think the Petrofac Pie is a nice idea. Even though it’s only for Livi and Alloa, the idea of anything free with your ticket is a nice touch.
Supporting the local team, as you do, I was surprised to find a free Danish lunch buffet in the club canteen. It was modest but tasty, if you like that sort of thing (warm liverpaste & ryebread, several kinds of marinated herring, cold cuts, and warm meatball type thingys). I had thought it was for the teams or some pre-match meeting of the local heid yins, but no, it was available to anyone, as long as it lasted. Now our average crowd is about 80-120, so not that many ate, but the point is it was there. I reckon I could have prepared that table about Ā£30. Not much of an outlay if you get more spectators. And it turns out that it was a new local initiative to get more to support the local team. I was told to help myself, but it’s not really my kind of food, although I did make the pooch a lovely ryebread and liverpaste sandwich which certainly improved her matchday experience no end
paulsatim says:
December 5, 2014 at 9:02 pm
Pretty good article, and good points raised
questioning what advantage there would be for Newcastle in lending players to a basket case of a club. It might have been more pertinent, though, to ask what, other than game time, would any loan players gain from a spell at Ibrox? There is no evidence, that I can see, of young, or even older, players improving under McCoist and his coaches, even Lewis McLeod isn’t getting better as he watches the ball fly 10 feet above his head!
I wonder, though, should any loan players arrive, if they will actually be young hopefuls, or will they be experienced journeymen (better than those already at Ibrox) just playing out their contracts and happy to get a game anywhere. Really no loss to Newcastle if they get injured or disillusioned. I’m not sure if the rules would allow TRFC to increase their over 21 quota, but I’d expect McCoist would actually prefer the older players as they wouldn’t require much coaching, just dumbing down to fit in with his chosen style of play!
upthehoops says:
December 6, 2014 at 8:14 am
6 6 Rate This
Matty Roth says:
December 5, 2014 at 5:34 pm
=================================
You continually use the word āforcedā regarding any potential upholding of the appeal by Tonev. My reading of that it is you believe they would be wrong to do so, and would only do so under duress. Please share with us your wider knowledge of this incident that no-one else seems to know!
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If one things clear from my posts UTHs its that I claim no special knowledge of the affair at all. But then I think you know that all too well.
“Forced” could mean plenty of things, so I won’t bother playing the word game with you thanks.
mungoboy says:
December 5, 2014 at 6:25 pm
“At least Donahue v Stephenson was about a bottle of ginger in Glasgow and we all know about that one.”
essexbeancounter says:
December 5, 2014 at 7:11 pm
ecobhoy says:
December 5, 2014 at 8:35 pm
I’ve waited three years for a something to crop up on RTC/TSFM that I knew something about, and when it does I’m out at the pub!
Not only that, but the slug in the bottle story gives me a once in a lifetime opportunity to correct some of our most well-respected and knowledgeable contributors, all known for their accuracy and attention to detail.
Happy days!
Donoghue v Stevenson wasn’t about a slug in a bottle of ginger in Glasgow. It was about about a slug(a snail, actually)in a bottle of ginger beer in a cafe in PAISLEY. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson)
OK, I’ll concede that neither EB nor Ecoboy actually stated that the incident took place in Glasgow, but nor did they correct Mungoboy’s original statement, so I’m claiming the points from you two,too.)
Grovelling apologies from the aforementioned distinguished gentlemen would be gratefully appreciated and will be printed off, framed and hung in a prominent place in my humble abode.
BTW, Anyone ever heard or used the phrase “Gie’s a slug o’ yer ginger” ??
I wonder where that originated
ecobhoy says:
December 6, 2014 at 9:15 am
1 0 Rate This
valentinesclown says:
December 6, 2014 at 7:36 am
There are interesting ideas about restructuring football here. I found this on another site and apologies if it has been posted before.
https://t.co/LNYlqohyHR
==========================================================
I havenāt seen it before. And youāre right itās very interesting and especially the breadth of issues covered.
Thought-provoking and well worth a read.
===============
Definitely a worthwhile read.
Considering the article was written 2 years ago and given all the things that were acknowledged as being wrong with out game at the point the SPFL was formed its quite an eye opener.
Once the SFL and SPFL merged, everything slipped back into the comfort zone and it doesn’t really seem like anything significant has changed.
Most of us probably predicted that would be the case but it doesn’t make it any less depressing.
Danish Pastry says:
December 6, 2014 at 9:43 am
5 0 Rate This
davythelotion says:
December 6, 2014 at 9:00 am
1 0 Rate This
āāāā
Good point Davy. The clouds of urine vapour from behind the main enclosure at Ibrox is a memory of mine! My older brother not only got me a lift but placed me on a kind of girder ledge at the back on the enclosure. Great view of the pitch, but you could also look out behind the enclosure as those in need of a beer-induced Jimmy Riddle went about their business š®
No wonder you hardly ever saw women at matches.
But why is it just alcohol thatās mentioned as a much-needed re-innovation? I think the Petrofac Pie is a nice idea. Even though itās only for Livi and Alloa, the idea of anything free with your ticket is a nice touch.
====================
Totally agree that they need to look at a lot more than one or two little changes here or there. They need to review the whole thing top to bottom and improve both the product on the park and the experience for the fans.
Off the top of my head I’d suggest safe standing areas & partnerships with travel providers should be pursued as priorities ahead of the introduction alcohol.
OK, Mr Rangers-penalty-misser-smart-Alec!
The exact location of the consumer of the alleged tainted beverage was indeed unknown to me but tell me this, Boy….
(Said in his best Rab C Nesbitt voice)…. tell me this….
In this cafe in Paisley, wiz it a McCallum or a 99 they were huvin at the time???
You’ll be telling us next it wiz in Paolo Nuttini’s Grannies place!
Matty Roth says:
December 6, 2014 at 10:44 am
==================================
Sorry Matty, ‘forced’ simply can’t be the right word regarding something as serious as this. Worse still, you implied in earlier posts Celtic would be behind the forcing. In my lifetime I’ve learned Celtic have never been able to force the SFA to do anything. []
Regarding improving Scottish football, in my view the only starting point for improvement will be when Regan, Ogilvie and Doncaster are removed from position. People who attempt to have a league structure based on anything other than meritocracy don’t deserve the chance to improve anything. They are simply unfit for purpose.
What is Neil Doncaster for?
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/12/06/what-is-neil-doncaster-for/
(hanged if I know…)
Re Logan / Tonev
The accusation merits genuine attention from the proper authorities just like this would if it were 2 supporters. If they don’t see sufficient evidence to prosecute then the game’s abandoned. The SFA have ‘previous’ on prejudicial decisions.
mungoboy says:
December 6, 2014 at 11:14 am
OK, Mr Rangers-penalty-misser-smart-Alec!
The exact location of the consumer of the alleged tainted beverage was indeed unknown to me but tell me this, Boyā¦. (Said in his best Rab C Nesbitt voice)ā¦. tell me thisā¦.
In this cafe in Paisley, wiz it a McCallum or a 99 they were huvin at the time??? Youāll be telling us next it wiz in Paolo Nuttiniās Grannies place!
==========================================================
It was actually a ‘Scotsman ice cream float’ – a mix of ice cream and ginger beer and it was served by cafĆ© owner, Francis Minghella.
Mrs Donoghue’s companion had a pear and ice and escaped the invasion of the gastropods.
However Judge Mungoboy I will deal with your failings in a minority report š
Was at a Saturday session at the quacks for the flu jab ,someone had left the Sun so I picked up for a wee read ,there inside the back page was an interview with Alistair McCoist present Manager of the club from Ibrox ,he was going on about if the sistuation between him and the rangers fans begins to affect his family ,he will walk,if you get a chance ,read this interview,he has totaly lost the plot,I would imagine the men in whyte [pun intended] coats would not even go near him and if any his family reads it they better get him out of the cuckoos nest and PDQ,I really do hope the hack added some of his own words to spice it up and has taken it a bit far ,if not ,oh dear.
The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty? says:
December 6, 2014 at 10:47 am
essexbeancounter says:
December 5, 2014 at 7:11 pm
ecobhoy says:
December 5, 2014 at 8:35 pm
Iāve waited three years for a something to crop up on RTC/TSFM that I knew something about, and when it does Iām out at the pub!
Not only that, but the slug in the bottle story gives me a once in a lifetime opportunity to correct some of our most well-respected and knowledgeable contributors, all known for their accuracy and attention to detail. Happy days!
OK, Iāll concede that neither EB nor Ecoboy actually stated that the incident took place in Glasgow, but nor did they correct Mungoboyās original statement, so Iām claiming the points from you two,too.)
Grovelling apologies from the aforementioned distinguished gentlemen would be gratefully appreciated and will be printed off, framed and hung in a prominent place in my humble abode.
===============================================================
Haud yir hoarses Jimmy š
Glesga has an important part in the story because Mrs Donoghue went on a day trip from her home during the Glesga Ferr to the far-flung shores of Paisley where the dastardly denizens tried to poison her.
Luckily she managed to struggle back to Glasgow Royal Infirmary – not trusting the local Paisley barbers – where she was diagnosed with severe gastroenteritis and treated.
Legal Eagles never make mistakes as I am sure you are well aware – we just have differtent opinions š
As to Judge Mungoboy and his use of ‘ginger’ I ignored it as his prolonged exposure to English Law has dulled his palate for Scottish legal terminology. Because as you rightly state the drink involved wasn’t ‘ginger’ but ginger beer manufactured a short distance away from the Paisley cafe where it was served to Mrs Donoghue.
I think you may have missed my later post where I mentioned that the trial to determine the facts such as whether there ever was a snail, slug or whatever in the opaque bottle never took place due to the death of the ginger beer manufacturer.
And as to grovelling apologies? Don’t you know Sir that no matter how serious a screw-up Judges might be faced with then all we do is make avizandum and it all goes away because there is to time limit to infinity š
BTW: you’ve even had me looking at the differences between snails and slugs – that’s how obsessive I am š³
I even discovered the slug in a bottle Xmas market at Paisley Town Hall: https://www.paisley.org.uk/2014/11/slug-bottle-market/
For any other anoraks out there wiki has a good piece on the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson
On the origins of the Glesga Patter phrase: āGieās a slug oā yer gingerā.
That just means pass me the bottle of whatever fizzy drink you have so that I can take a mouthful from it. ‘Ginger’ is the generic name for any kind of fizzy soft drink probably because Ginger Beer was probably the first of the species – not including slugs/snails right enough – made in ordinary households and the on a bigger scale. ‘Skoosh’ can be interchanged with ‘ginger’.
But it’s not just for soft drinks as it applies to alcohol as well as in: ‘Geez a slug o yir Buckie’.
On the Tonev/Logan thing. This is perhaps the first time we have had a prolonged debate that doesn’t involve TRFC, and the split down party lines is quite depressing.
The use of evocative language has muddied the waters even further here.
For example;
“Forced”: yes, and Trade Unions always “demand” whilst bosses “plead”
There is some anger and righteous indignation on display as well. To me this suggests that the writer has made up his or her mind – and in the context of discussion on TSFM, that isn’t right.
For sure, Aberdeen fans will be hoping that Logan is telling the truth, and Celtic fans will be hoping that Tonev is. I don’t see how any of us can be sure that either is telling the truth unless we abandon reason, split along club preference, and just stand behind the line with either a red or green rosette (which would be most unTSFM-like).
I can’t understand why people can’t allow for the possibility that BOTH players are being truthful. Tonev’s first language is definitely not English, so there may well be cause to think that there has been a misunderstanding – something more likely to occur in the heat of on-field battle.
I have seen no-one on TSFM (and if I am wrong please point me to the post) say anything negative about Shay Logan, or imply that he is lying. Sadly that does not seem to the case about Tonev. Pretty much as soon as the accusation was made public, fans of all clubs here were traducing him in an understandable rush to show their horror of racism.
As soon as Tonev protested his innocence in the strongest possible manner, the issue became an Aberdeen v Celtic thing, which is nonsense.
I think the criticism of Celtic is unfair in this context. Both Celtic and Aberdeen have made statements in support of their own players. That is to be expected, and I think applauded. Celtic clearly believe Tonev, Aberdeen clearly believe Logan.
Nothing untoward or dishonourable about that, nor anything sinister about Tonev exercising his right to appeal.
There is also nothing dishonourable in giving Tonev the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I will give him that benefit. That doesnāt change my own view that anyone guilty of racism should be chased out of society, never mind football. I will also give Celtic the benefit the doubt. I believe that the Lennon Doctrine still holds at Celtic Park, and that they would immediately show any racist the door. Their support of Tonev is not the same as condoning racist behaviour.
What has been interesting is that the tension created by this has led to a wider debate about how these matters should be dealt with. I think that the inadequacy of the arrangements put in place by the SFA have demonstrated yet again that they do not as a rule deal with matters in a professional manner. The first thing that springs to mind is that in order to dispense justice, there has to be transparency in the process. Whatever we feel about its efficacy, I think we can all agree that there has been no transparency.
My worry here is that the unity amongst fans is under threat on partisan matters. Last week Hearts and Celtic; this week Aberdeen and Celtic. I am also aware that many of the people (though not all) who have become vocal on both of these matters are new members or long-time lurkers who (in the case of the Hearts thing) have since disappeared.
TSFM is renowned for its membersā ability to see the other point of view. I hope that will continue.
mungoboy says:
December 6, 2014 at 11:14 am
OK, Mr Rangers-penalty-misser-smart-Alec!
The exact location of the consumer of the alleged tainted beverage was indeed unknown to me but tell me this, Boyā¦.
(Said in his best Rab C Nesbitt voice)ā¦. tell me thisā¦.
In this cafe in Paisley, wiz it a McCallum or a 99 they were huvin at the time???
Youāll be telling us next it wiz in Paolo Nuttiniās Grannies place!
————————————–
I wasn’t there at the time, Mungoboy, but I understand from sources close to Mrs Donahoe (Wikipedia) that the offending crustacean was found in a concoction known locally as “an ice-cream drink” – a scoop of ice-cream over which was poured a carbonated drink, in this case ginger beer.
Further to your enquiry, I know of no connection between the Wellmeadow Cafe in Well Street and the Castelvecchi chip shop in New Street, owned by the family of a local music industry icon, but I thank you for your interest.
Yours etc
ecobhoy says:
December 6, 2014 at 12:18 pm
I yield to the honourable gentleman, on the grounds that I cannae be ar5ed any longer, and that we are deflecting from some very serious discussions.
Also, I wouldn’t want to be accused of being a squirrel.
Aw haud oan!
How ur we gonnae get a squirrel intae a bottle o’ skoosh??
TSFM
I have seen no-one on TSFM (and if I am wrong please point me to the post) say anything negative about Shay Logan, or imply that he is lying. Sadly that does not seem to the case about Tonev. Pretty much as soon as the accusation was made public, fans of all clubs here were traducing him in an understandable rush to show their horror of racism.
So, let’s encourage potential victims off racism to come forward and then pour negativity and point accusatory fingers of lying at them. That can’t be what you meant. Surely? Apols if I’ve misinterpreted.
On BBC Radio Scotland the other day (Thursday), Chris McLaughlin was waxing lyrical about how the SFA Board was, that afternoon, considering MA’s response to them about his influence, or otherwise, on the TRFC Board. I have seen nothing in the MSM (or indeed from Phil) since regarding the outcome of their sage considerations. Since the SFA is committed to transparency in everything it does šæ , this has surprised me. Has anyone heard anything?
The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty? says:
December 6, 2014 at 10:47 am
Grovelling apologies from the aforementioned distinguished gentlemen would be gratefully appreciated and will be printed off, framed and hung in a prominent place in my humble abode.
BTW, Anyone ever heard or used the phrase āGieās a slug oā yer gingerā ??
================================================================================
…grovelling apology…?…when (S)DM hands back his gong…then ah’ll gie ye a slug o’ ma ginger in celebration…preferably Barr’s “Limeade”…!
This phrase was used often in our household…but always out of earshot of my wee maw (RIP)…who was always receptive to such “rough language”…!
Without wishing to get dragged into the D v S ‘slugfest’…it isn’t a total squirrel.
Everyone loves that case, IMO, because the details are ‘bogging’ and was an easily remembered case from student days.
But it established the concept of negligence and duty of care.
Now whilst we probably will never see them in court a reasonable fan would expect that Ogilvie, Regan and Doncaster have failed in their duty of care to Scottish football fans.
Have these 3 characters – and even reps of senior clubs? – been negligent these last 2 years in particular?
(And I was dragged up to call ginger ‘skoosh’ – which I still do at every opportunity – and for some reason it winds up the wife! š )
Top Cat 1874 says:
December 6, 2014 at 1:14 pm
7 0 Rate This
On BBC Radio Scotland the other day (Thursday), Chris McLaughlin was waxing lyrical about how the SFA Board was, that afternoon, considering MAās response to them about his influence, or otherwise, on the TRFC Board. I have seen nothing in the MSM (or indeed from Phil) since regarding the outcome of their sage considerations. Since the SFA is committed to transparency in everything it does šæ , this has surprised me. Has anyone heard anything?
——–
Indeed that was said, and not a cheep from them. Possibly still behind the sofa hiding from Hearn? Or have they just painted themselves into yet another corner?
Club chairmen need to act in concert to clear oot the regime.
Wee piece about Ann Budge today … and it has to be said, myself, and Gavin, who wrote this one, are big fans of hers, and what she and her management team are doing at Hearts.
Interesting discussion on here too on the subject of Logan/Tonev.
I agree wholeheartedly with TSFM on this one. I don’t think for a second Logan is lying. I do think he may be mistaken. I also wonder if Tonev has picked up something somewhere and used it wrongly (that even reads like a poor excuse, and it is).
The simple fact is; we’ll never know. I don’t believe a player should be branded a racist for life on the basis of a case like this. It’s a shocker of a verdict and a shocker of a case.
If there was even a shred of actual evidence, TV footage, another player saying he heard it, even something in Tonev’s past (and there is nothing, absolutely nil) then I might have some understanding as to how this verdict was reached. It’s simply not there.
I sympathise with both players, but have none for the SFA discipline board. One of our esteemed hacks said earlier this week that Celtic should send Tonev back to Villa, and offered no reason why we should stick such a despicable label on a player to haunt him for the rest of his life, other than 1) we don’t need him 2) it would spare the SFA from having to fight their case.
Pathetic. One of the worst pieces of “journalism” I’ve ever read.
Anyway … today’s piece …
http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/salt-n-sauce-n-sour-grapes/
Apropos Hearts @James I’m hearing on the internet wireless that there’s more than 15,000 at Tynecastle today. Impressive. Biggest crowd in the Championship?
James Forrest says:
December 6, 2014 at 3:42 pm
====================
Thanks for the post and the link James, that’s certainly set us pesky non-party line posters straight.
Danish Pastry says:
December 6, 2014 at 3:50 pm
1 0 Rate This
Apropos Hearts @James Iām hearing on the internet wireless that thereās more than 15,000 at Tynecastle today. Impressive. Biggest crowd in the Championship?
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It could be but the crowd at Ibrox will be announced with all season ticket holders included. I believe they have around 17,000.
ecobhoy says:
December 6, 2014 at 12:18 pm
āSkooshā can be interchanged with āgingerā.
——————————————–
A Glesca urban myth/apocryphal tale:
It’s 1974. A young Glasgow chap, hoping to impress, takes his newest girlfriend for a “posh” meal – at a Stakis Steakhouse.
The waiter, on bringing her melon starter, inquires
“Would madam like ginger with that?”
“Naw thanks”, she replies “Wir huvin wine”.
Last week Regan let slip that it was Ashleyās lawyers who were dealing with the Ashley influence matter at Ibrox. I think that nice Mr Ashley has absolutely no intention of going to Hampden for a papal audience, hence the reason for having his lawyers involved
The MASH lawyers, if they are worth their salt, will insist everything is put in writing. They will phrase their communications in legalese, be as vague as possible and, so, give nothing away. They will frustrate the SFA by drawing out the correspondence. All the SFA can do is to reply at each stage seeking yet further clarification, and so the saga will continue, but to no avail.
Regan is now between a rock and a hard place. He started off in a blaze of publicity acting the tough headmaster in summonsing the errant schoolboy to his study. There is now zero chance of that happening, far less Ashley Junior putting his hand out for six of the best.
I can see this clarification demand being put on the back boiler and being quietly dropped at the first opportunity. The SFA must now hope that an insolvency event at Ibrox diverts the spotlight from them.
ecobhoy says:
December 6, 2014 at 8:59 am
“I would think that every open-minded poster on this site is well aware of the stench that emanates fromm Hampden and we frequently rail against it and demand the whole kit and caboodle is dismantled and replaced by a fit for purpose impartial organisation.”
———————————
I think there has been a growing feeling of unease of the handling of disciplinary matters and governance in general in Scottish Football. Discussing a complex disciplinary matter with such a backdrop makes for a challenging debate. For simplicity I would hypothesise an imaginary world where the governance was deemed to be reliable.
Given that substantial presumption, I believe there then needs to be a distinction between the sport and civil society. Sport entrains all sorts of activities that might not be the norm within civil society i.e. boxing. Within these sporting parameters it is necessary for the governing bodies to exercise their discretion as best they can.
This does not absolve a sport’s participants from the rule of law. However if two guys decide to punch each other in the head until one of them is unconscious and this activity takes place within the framework of a sport then that activity can be deemed to be lawful.
The recognition and acceptance of racism as a particularly corrosive form of abuse provides difficulties for both mythical sporting disciplinary bodies and equally mythical law enforcement regimes. These two threads act independently but may at times coincide. They do not by necessity need to mirror or exclude each other.
I have read the varied opinions and they are valid just as I believe mine is. I don’t wish to protract a debate that some may be finding thoroughly exercised. It is not necessary to resolve this issue in one ‘sitting’. Perhaps we could cut our mythical authorities a bit of slack in recognition of this likelihood.
Billy Boyce says:
December 6, 2014 at 4:22 pm
Regan does hold one ace, though. Should TRFC sign loan players from Newcastle, they still have to be registered with the SFA. If Regan has any balls at all (I know there is doubt on that one) he will ensure that this isn’t done until Ashley appears at Hampden to explain his position fully and prove that neither he, nor his appointed directors, had anything to do with the loan arrangement! They might also insist that a business plan covering, at least, the remainder of the season is produced showing exactly where any funds are coming from, with an undertaking that it won’t be from Ashley or anywhere he holds influence.
While Ashley might have the big lawyers at his beck and call, time is critical for TRFC so any delay could scupper Ashley’s plans (if he does, indeed, have any plans that involve TRFC as opposed to RIFC).
28,137, is that the lowest home league crowd for TRFC in their history?
TSFM.
Yes I was hasty but, with respect, you’re not half as disappointed as I am.
Castofthousands says:
December 6, 2014 at 4:26 pm
If two guys decide to punch each other in the head until one of them is unconscious and this activity takes place within the framework of a sport then that activity can be deemed to be lawful.
=======================================================
I think you are missing the point. The boxers you refer to voluntarily enter a ring where they might be punched senseless.
Personally I abhor boxing and would never contribute a penny towards it but that’s my choice.
However no matter my opinion of boxers and their chosen sport I doubt if any enter the ring accepting that they can be racially abused.
And if they were then – no matter my arritude towards their ‘sport’ – I would defend and support their right to oppose racism.
And that’s simply because I believe that racism must be fought and eradicated for the greater public good.
Allyjambo says:
December 6, 2014 at 4:54 pm
7 2 Rate This
28,137, is that the lowest home league crowd for TRFC in their history?
———-
Someone texted SSB that it was an optimistic 18,000 max. Good crowd considering, but no use for the financial side of things, apparently.
Interesting comment from the pundits that even if the players and management team had worked for free Ibrox would still have lost millions last year. Realisation at last. And yet they’re the only hope for Scottish fitba.
PS Any Motherwell fans on here? Saw a prominent Union Jack with some slogan on it today. Do Well have sme kind of ‘union loyal’ brigade? Probably not, I suppose it was an English fan club.
mungoboy says:
December 6, 2014 at 12:59 pm
Aw haud oan! How ur we gonnae get a squirrel intae a bottle oā skoosh??
=========================================================================
There are two ways to achieve this: Either bash the squirrel flat with a shovel or buy a 3-litre bottle. Simples šÆ
Nah, Eco,
Liquidation the only ‘solution’
š
Danish Pastry says:
December 6, 2014 at 5:58 pm
I suppose the published figure could be the total number of walk ups plus the total of season tickets on issue (or some other wheeze), but no matter what, the important thing is not how many were there, but how many paid to get in! I believe they have around 25,000 ST holders so that might mean only 3,000 or so paid today (or over the past few weeks) to attend. I doubt that would cover much of the match day expenses, let alone every other cost they’ve incurred in the course of the past week.
I wonder, too, if it might be a bit of an eye-opener for Mike Ashley and his hit-team, that TRFC supporters are nowhere near as loyal as they might sing about – and certainly more inclined to stay away when results are bad than the diehard support at St James’s Park! Those that turned up might have witnessed another three points being gained, but from the reports I’ve heard there was nothing on display to suggest others might be encouraged back!
I heard something on ‘Open All Mikes’ that there was supposedly going to be some protest against, I think, McCoist at 9 mins (9 in a row?) after KO that didn’t materialise. Perhaps those that were muting any protest protested instead by staying away.
Let us have a look to see if, what was put forward by the Scottish MSM, as the most exciting league ever-ever, is currently doing.
The following puts forward the League followed by the points between 1st and 2nd, and then the points between 2nd and 3rd.
England
Premier League – 3 points – 7 points.
Championship – 1 point – 1 point.
League 1 – 1 point – 1 point.
League 2 – 1 point – 1 point.
Scotand
Premiership – 3 points – 1 point.
Championship – 9 points – 7 points
League 1 – 2 points – 0 points.
League 2 – 3 points – 1 point.
So, the league put forward, as the most exciting, is the least exciting. Probably, inevitably, given the MSM’s track record, it is the least exciting.
It may change.
The MSM in Scotland should be looking at this and learning.
But they won’t!
Interestingly, the next most least exciting, is the most exciting league in the world, the English Premier League.
around 18k was the popular guess from those who were there on the T`rangers forums
23k was the season ticket number given out by the board in sept
http://willievass.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/061214-Rangers-v-Cowdenbeath/G0000ZMx.g0Hgkd8/I0000Pn3GhT19Seo/C00000at32GkPV0c
A low attendance in the league today as fans continue to stay away from Ibrox
Surely the easiest way is just to put acorns in the bottle as bait?
Nuclear Sheep says:
December 6, 2014 at 7:08 pm
If you had heard my heart thumping from 3 o’clock until almost 4.45 today, you wouldn’t have said that. Well you might have actually, and still been right, but for Hearts supporters, with our record of not being able to kill off league titles, 9 points is nothing and the Championship is bloody exciting, though not in the way the SMSM went to great lengths to convince us all it was, just a few months ago.
Of course, we could look at it another way. If you were given the choice of putting your life savings on Hearts, at 9 points ahead, to win the Championship, or Celtic to win the Premiership at 3 points ahead, which one would you choose?
ecobhoy says:
December 6, 2014 at 6:15 pm
4 1 Rate This
mungoboy says:
December 6, 2014 at 12:59 pm
Aw haud oan! How ur we gonnae get a squirrel intae a bottle oā skoosh??
=========================================================================
There are two ways to achieve this: Either bash the squirrel flat with a shovel or buy a 3-litre bottle. Simples šÆ
===============================================================================
Ecobhoy…have you seen the size of the grey squirrels in Essex?…more like a 10 gallon drum you will be needing….. š
Allyjambo says:
December 6, 2014 at 7:23 pm
Of course, we could look at it another way. If you were given the choice of putting your life savings on Hearts, at 9 points ahead, to win the Championship, or Celtic to win the Premiership at 3 points ahead, which one would you choose?
________________________________________________________
Bloody hell AJ, a hard question at this time on a Saturday night š
PS Any Motherwell fans on here? Saw a prominent Union Jack with some slogan on it today. Do Well have sme kind of āunion loyalā brigade? Probably not, I suppose it was an English fan club.
Didn’t see it DP, but I sincerely hope not! There is a gut from London who is a devoted Well Fan for reasons best known to himself, so it may have been him, I’ll see what I can find out
Essex,
Well, round here we don’t have any of those common grey squirrels.
Ours are red.
Posh or what? š
Scottc says
If you put acorns in as bait, wouldn’t you just be making acorn skoosh?
Danish/Wellfan
I did see a banner in the pattern of the union flag in todays coverage. it was in ‘wells colours though (no white or blue) and the glimpses of it were too fleeting to work out any wording. I’m sure i’ve seen similar at fir park before
You see the occasional Union Flag in Aberdeen colours at Pittodrie(since the early 80’s)
Winds the home fans up as much as the opposition but doesn’t really bother me.
I
@Allyjambo, all things considered 18,000 is an incredible turnout. After years of dismal fitba, intrigues, and an impersonation of the former club, folk still come to games. Not easy to face weekly humiliation. Of course, people are loyal for various reasons.
——–
ParanoidWellFan says:
December 6, 2014 at 8:07 pm
4 0 Rate This
Didnāt see it DP, but I sincerely hope not! There is a gut from London who is a devoted Well Fan for reasons best known to himself, so it may have been him, Iāll see what I can find out
———
Think it was down in the right corner on screen, quite near the away fans. Always appears odd with demonstrative UJs at Scottish fitba. But it could well have been an English-based group of fans for all I know. Otherwise a match high on chances, low on goals. Funny how goalies are not always praised. The tendency to talk-down negativity comes across as strikers being branded hopeless; some quite outstanding stuff from the Well keeper I thought. Negativity was never the late Arthur Montford’s way.
Cheers @tyke & @Bill
Don’t see the point of it myself, but I’m maybe damaged goods coming from Glasgow. I really shouldn’t automatically associate it with the word ‘loyal’. I should get some pills for this odd allergic reaction to that flag + fitba š
Danish Pastry says:
December 6, 2014 at 9:00 pm
@Allyjambo, all things considered 18,000 is an incredible turnout. After years of dismal fitba, intrigues, and an impersonation of the former club, folk still come to games. Not easy to face weekly humiliation. Of course, people are loyal for various reasons.
_______________________________
I agree on both points DP, but neither of them help TRFC. If they got a crowd of 10,000 with no season ticket holders present, that would be better than 18,000 with the bulk made up of ST holders. As for the basis of the supporters ‘loyalty’, it again doesn’t help TRFC, what matters is that the view from down south is that TRFC have a very loyal support and that this is what Ashley is buying into (if he is buying into TRFC). We know that they actually have a record of staying away when they are not winning titles and today, along with the reduced attendances already this season, just might put him right on this. Clearly, any austerity measures are going to lead to a poorer product on the field while only vast spending will appease the bears enough to bring them back in great numbers.
Ashley might well have looked at the 33,000 thousand reported attendances and thought, ‘wow, what will they get in the Premiership’, but now that he’s got people on the inside with the real figures, he might realise that bad as the club’s finances are, they are not going to get better without very expensive success. I’d bet that his initial calculations on how much he would need to spend to make a return have gone north by a few million in the past few weeks, and maybe a few more today!
Danish
The Well BOIS do have a St Andrews cross in the Well colours that they certainly had at Celtic Park for the Scotland v Eire game. They would be bottom right.
Id be disappointed if they went down that road.
ParanoidWellfan will no doubt find out from AB and have words.
Used to be a feature many moons ago 70s 80s when the buses weren’t running to Govan the locals might turn up if someone we were playing had incurred the WATP wrath. Them days they were chased off/shut up/flags removed.
Personally I’ve got the scars from telling them where to catch the bus and would be well annoyed if its re occurring.
Allyjambo says:
December 6, 2014 at 9:28 pm
Clearly, any austerity measures are going to lead to a poorer product on the field
============================
Ermm….not really sure that that’s quite right and I can think of one (initially expensive) austerity measure that would probably lead to an improvement on the park. š
Seriously though cutting the playing staff bill and providing better product on the park looks IMO rather doable…
It’s the other cuts that will be more problematic…
Sky Sports reporting that the crowd at Ibrox today was the lowest league attendance since 1986.
The irony is that that is the year that the money started to flow in. The equation is clear to see.
justshatered says:
December 6, 2014 at 10:11 pm
‘..The irony is that that is the year that the money started to flow in. The equation is clear to see.’
———-
What’s that old saying, ‘Coming events cast their shadows before’.
Who would have thought that one man’s contempt for fair and honest sporting dealing, combined with a deep-seated envy and personal hubris, would have so comprehensively brought ‘his’ club to a shameful, dishonourable death?
I’m thinking the Well v Celtic crowd may be close to the lowest we have had in recent times?
Yet then everyone saying there’s no competition to Celtic. So we/they don’t go.
There was certainly competition in that game to the extent that it was a header away from a draw. (despite an hour of one way traffic).
Hearn’s right we need to sell this imaginatively.
justshatered says:
December 6, 2014 at 10:11 pm
ā..The irony is that that is the year that the money started to flow in.
Then the SD stepped in. But will the SD step in?
Funny how both have the same initials