Accountability, Transparency, & Brave Sir Robin

ByBig Pink

Accountability, Transparency, & Brave Sir Robin

Over the weekend, we ran a quick poll on Twitter (View Poll).

Do you trust the SFA to administer football in the interests of the sport?

Around 1500 took part and the percentage shares were as follows

No: 95%
Yes: 3%
Don’t Know: 2%

Not exactly scientific, nor do we make any claim that the sample demographic is representative (although the sample size is substantial).

However by any measure the overwhelming disapproval of the SFA, or the clubs that form the major part of that body, is something that cannot simply be tossed aside.

Even if the 95% (nearly 2% of the match attending public) are mistaken or deluded, it is a very badly managed industry that would ignore the perception of mistrust held by its customers.

Of course the SFA and the media will ignore the results of this poll. It doesn’t speak to the shiny-brochure, all’s-well narrative – even if the facts prove the narrative to be false.

The authorities are under siege at the moment; the government are closing in on the strict liability issue, the fans voicing disapproval and lack of trust in how the game is run, and a major member club approaches a potential financial meltdown. On top of that, there are excruciatingly bad choices made on match scheduling, venues for neutral showpiece games, and the self-acquittal process of the cup final inquiry. Not to mention that those incompetents who run the game have presided over and actively helped bring about the (arguably)  most bitter and widest polarisation of fans in the history of the game.

Even if the 95% (nearly 2% of the match attending public) are mistaken or deluded, it is a very badly managed industry that would ignore the perception of mistrust held by its customers.

Cue Stewart Regan and club chairmen across the country burying their heads even deeper in the sand, because all is well is it not?

It is a not unreasonable expectation that governing bodies should find solutions to problems in their field of expertise. The SFA are not by any stretch of the imagination part of any solution process – in fact they are a major part of the problem itself.

Football is a public-facing industry. In Scotland, because of poor TV revenues negotiated ineffectually by, wait for it, the governing bodies, the sport relies almost 100% on attendances – on fans staying loyal to the sport. Those fans (you would think) should be cultivated, engaged with, and paid heed to.

Staggeringly though, the SFA’s civil service, in the shape of their full time executives and PR machinery have done the opposite. Instead of engaging with the customer base, they have actively waged war against them.

Regan has breathed into life the wonderful fiction of Monty Python’s Brave Sir Robin.

The originally welcome transparency of the Chief Executive’s move to communicate via Twitter became increasingly opaque in the face of tough questions. Nowadays sightings only appear sporadically; and only if you are quick enough to spot him popping his head out the bunker to take a cheap shot at a critic, or childishly ejaculating “Nothing!” at public events when asked what he will do about corruption in the game.

Sir Robin - Ran Away

Sir Robin – Ran Away

Regan has breathed into life the wonderful fiction of Monty Python’s Brave Sir Robin. He  spends more time running away than fearlessly facing his critics whilst his PR chief provides snide and contemptuous invective as cover for his and his boss’s retreat.

They are consummately arrogant and filled with contempt for the fans, but to be fair, they are no different from club directors in their disregard for fan opinion. In my experience there is a culture in football that deludes itself into thinking that the directors are doing the fans a favour by providing the football club for them. They actually expect gratitude from fans for taking their money and portray themselves as martyrs if those same fans seek to hold them accountable.

It’s a bit like your boss farting so much during a conversation that you feel compelled to say “pardon me!” and take the blame for the offence yourself.

Of course there are always wonderful words about the fans from the clubs, and from the SFA and SPFL. These are merely platitudinous lip service, a box-ticking exercise to be quickly completed before reminding fans that they “really don’t have the skill-set to have a say in the running of a modern football club”.

This from people who have presided over our country’s steep slide into the footballing wilderness where our clubs and national side have disappeared from prominence and high regard .

It is no surprise then that this kind of culture in clubs, which patronises and just about tolerates fans, has woven its way into the fabric of the governing bodies itself.

95% of football fans do not think the SFA (the “clubs”) can be trusted to run Scottish football. That is a staggering statistic

95% of football fans do not think the SFA (the “clubs”) can be trusted to run Scottish football. That is a staggering statistic, and one which provides at least enough discussion for greater accountability, but more likely a root and branch change in the governance of the game.

Too often in the past, the authorities have used partisan fan interest to divide and rule. The time has most definitely come for a mass, non-partisan fan representative body to challenge the authorities, to lobby government, and to wrest control of the game away from the mediocre, self-interested failures who have slowly destroyed it over the past three decades.

I believe that such a force is coming, and I hope SFM is part of it. The people currently charged with the running of our sport excel in only one area – in their contempt for the paying public.

It is time we moved into a new age, a post SFA age where accountability, integrity and love of sport, not riches, takes priority.

About the author

Big Pink administrator

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

273 Comments so far

neepheidPosted on4:53 pm - Oct 10, 2016


The Cat NR1October 10, 2016 at 16:20   
The Cat NR1October 10, 2016 at 15:51 ========================== NET ASSETS £31,394M should of course have read NET ASSETS £31,394K . I was heading off into warchest territory with that typo.
================================
More like wealth off the radar. Only a Motherwell born billionaire (copyright Keith Jackson) could aspire to that kind of money.
Seriously, if TRFC were to enter administration, then RIFC would surely be by far the largest creditor, unless HMRC have really let things slide. So RIFC could probably take the assets in exchange for their debt,
Would the authorities dare to allow another switch of that precious SFA membership, this time from TRFC to RIFC? I’m pretty sure that’s the plan. The SPFL share might present more problems, but these jokers didn’t get MBA’s for nothing. A way will be found, human ingenuity is a wonderful thing. Just a shame so much of it has been wasted on such an unworthy project as keeping a basket case club operating in Scottish football.

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StevieBCPosted on5:43 pm - Oct 10, 2016


Rumours on t’internet that Stewart Robertson – the TRFC MD – is not a happy bunny.

His attempts at cutting discretionary costs are apparently not being welcomed by Directors, and he seems to be undermined.

If true, you would think that he would resign before any external action was taken against the company e.g. by an unpaid creditor.

I believe Robertson is also a C.A..
If he is not allowed to cut costs as necessary, then he certainly wouldn’t want to be anywhere near Ibrox if/when the smelly stuff hits the fan.
You would think…

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SmugasPosted on6:33 pm - Oct 10, 2016


Just to be clear, as I understand it RIFC are not insolvent as they have a large debtor that they could call in.  But, TRFC are horrifically insolvent unless both their directors and the ‘event’ controlling creditor write off their loans.  And, without checking, I understand that it is TRFc who hold both the membership and the League placing which cannot be transferred away under conditions of insolvency.  Fit a stramash!

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AllyjamboPosted on8:07 pm - Oct 10, 2016


neepheid
October 10, 2016 at 16.53

The Cat NR1October 10, 2016 at 16:20 The Cat NR1October 10, 2016 at 15:51 ========================== NET ASSETS £31,394M should of course have read NET ASSETS £31,394K . I was heading off into warchest territory with that typo. ================================ More like wealth off the radar. Only a Motherwell born billionaire (copyright Keith Jackson) could aspire to that kind of money. Seriously, if TRFC were to enter administration, then RIFC would surely be by far the largest creditor, unless HMRC have really let things slide. So RIFC could probably take the assets in exchange for their debt, Would the authorities dare to allow another switch of that precious SFA membership, this time from TRFC to RIFC? I’m pretty sure that’s the plan. The SPFL share might present more problems, but these jokers didn’t get MBA’s for nothing. A way will be found, human ingenuity is a wonderful thing. Just a shame so much of it has been wasted on such an unworthy project as keeping a basket case club operating in Scottish football.
________________

Not having the necessary knowledge to say with certainty, but I’d imagine that a holding company cannot be classed as an ordinary creditor in the event of an insolvency (at least in voting rights), otherwise they’d all be at it, and not just the spivs14

What a spiffing wheeze that would be, set up a holding company that lends to the trading business, then trade in a risky fashion, running up debt just below the 25% level of total debt until the smelly stuff hits, then be in a position to call the shots in an administration. Might not be a way to guarantee a profit, but a nice way to protect the trading company from angry creditors in the event of said insolvency!

If I am wrong, what a wonderful opportunity for some money laundering that would be!

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HomunculusPosted on8:56 pm - Oct 10, 2016


One of the main reasons, if not the actual main reason, for using the holding company structure is to protect the shareholders of the holding company from the creditors of the trading company should things go wrong. 

This article specifically discusses the assets.

http://keens.co.uk/a-holding-company-protecting-major-business-assets/

Extract

One way of protecting key assets is for a company to form a wholly owned subsidiary, and to transfer the trade into it, along with its current assets and most or all of its future liabilities.  Major assets of the original company can be retained in it.  If this is contractually problematic, it is usually possible to achieve the same results by forming a new holding company above the main trading company.  The original shareholders become shareholders in the holding company instead, and the trading company becomes a wholly owned subsidiary of the holding company.  With care, major assets of the trading company can then be transferred up to the holding company at little or no cost, leaving the risky end of the business in the subsidiary.  With the new “group” structure in place (by either mechanism), if the trading subsidiary goes into liquidation at a later stage, its creditors have no automatic right to the assets of the holding company.
Assets to be protected in this way might include buildings, intellectual property (goodwill, patents rights, and so on), and major items of plant and machinery.
So let’s not be fooled by the suggestion that an established holding company is there to provide secure backing for its subsidiary.  It may have been formed for exactly the opposite purpose  –  so that the subsidiary can sink without trace at the expense of its creditors, whilst protecting the real asset base of the holding company (and the ultimate shareholders).

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wottpiPosted on9:29 pm - Oct 10, 2016


Homunculus & AllyJambo
Is what you are talking about not the type of thing Ashley did with USC and indeed Tom Hunter before him? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USC_(clothing_retailer)

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AllyjamboPosted on9:52 pm - Oct 10, 2016


Homunculus
October 10, 2016 at 20:56

Is the set up described in the text you provide not the opposite of that between RIFC plc and TRFC Ltd, with the assets held by the operating company and the only assets of the holding company being the debts owed by TRFC? The need to placate the bears making it nigh on impossible to protect the assets in this way!

I’d imagine in instances as described in the text you provided that obtaining credit from savvy lenders would be almost impossible without the holding co granting standard security/floating charge over the assets, though smaller business creditors and suppliers might not realise this ploy and extend credit believing they would have a claim against said assets.

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HomunculusPosted on9:58 pm - Oct 10, 2016


Just out of interest and apropos of nothing, people may remember the whole shenanigans with regard Celtic being given preferential deals in relation to land obtained from Glasgow City Council and the NHS (if memory serves). In particular a whole “state aid” conspiracy being led by someone who I think styled himself plz. 

There were a few charges in relation to this. Two charges in relation to this deal were held by GCC. Those charges have both been satisfied. The Scottish Ministers still hold a charge over “Site at the former lennox castle hospital, lennoxtown”.

I assume therefore that anything owed to GCC has now been paid in full. Though according to “plz” it was about £3.25 anyway. 

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)Posted on10:01 pm - Oct 10, 2016


Hi guys.
Been missing for a while(waiting on arrival of 1st grandchild,a smashing wee boy!).
Trying to catch up though.
FWIW the talk on Twitter tonight,from what I’d class as sensible & reasonable guys who have access to occassional info is that the HMRC “problem” Sevco are currently experiencing is due to non payment of VAT for the past 6 months.
I obviously can’t confirm but these guys are not your usual Twitter nutters.

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HomunculusPosted on10:02 pm - Oct 10, 2016


ALLYJAMBO
OCTOBER 10, 2016 at 21:52
===============================

I believe you are correct, as it was last reported. What has happened since then, I have no idea.

I was really just making the point that the whole “holding company” structure is basically designed to protect the interests of the shareholders (of the holding company) to the detriment of the creditors (of the subsidiary). 

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StevieBCPosted on10:16 pm - Oct 10, 2016


TORREJOHNBHOY(@JOHNBHOY1958)
OCTOBER 10, 2016 at 22:01

FWIW the talk on Twitter tonight,from what I’d class as sensible & reasonable guys who have access to occasional info is that the HMRC “problem” Sevco are currently experiencing is due to non payment of VAT for the past 6 months…
===============================
So far, these are just rumours.

But, if I had heard these rumours over last weekend, and I had an overdue invoice with TRFC for a material amount – I would have been personally waiting at the external doors of the finance department at Ibrox [?], demanding payment, and freezing any further business immediately.

I certainly wouldn’t wait for confirmation of the rumour by way of court action from another TRFC creditor. 

I wouldn’t have any sympathy for any business which had extended credit to TRFC: there are compelling reasons why not one bank has offered a credit facility to TRFC… so why would a supplier ?  

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AllyjamboPosted on10:20 pm - Oct 10, 2016


torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)
October 10, 2016 at 22:01

Hi guys. Been missing for a while(waiting on arrival of 1st grandchild,a smashing wee boy!). Trying to catch up though. FWIW the talk on Twitter tonight,from what I’d class as sensible & reasonable guys who have access to occassional info is that the HMRC “problem” Sevco are currently experiencing is due to non payment of VAT for the past 6 months. I obviously can’t confirm but these guys are not your usual Twitter nutters.
_______________

While bearing in mind that it is just rumours, 6 months might suggest that that would include the VAT collected from ST sales, quite a large figure I’d suspect, and would also include match day sales and cup ties…surely not!!! Surely they’ve paid up on SC semi final and final sales!!! Not sure how it works, would the club sell the tickets and pass the money to the SFA to have it distributed later, or would they hold onto it and settle any balance at a later date? Could the SFA be dragged into it if the rumours are true? How sweet would that be??

PS In case someone hasn’t guessed, these are merely my musings and do not form the basis for another tasty rumour21

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AllyjamboPosted on10:31 pm - Oct 10, 2016


Homunculus
October 10, 2016 at 22:02

ALLYJAMBO OCTOBER 10, 2016 at 21:52 ===============================
I believe you are correct, as it was last reported. What has happened since then, I have no idea.
I was really just making the point that the whole “holding company” structure is basically designed to protect the interests of the shareholders (of the holding company) to the detriment of the creditors (of the subsidiary).
______________

Thanks for the response and clarification, Homunclus. It’s amazing how much we have all learned during this saga, sadly much of it isn’t in any way reassuring over the way business/company law works.

I had wondered while writing if the assets were still in TRFC’s name, we have no sure way of knowing, but charges of gratuitous alienation must surely follow if insolvency is on the cards, and no on would allow themselves to end up in that soup, would they?

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HomunculusPosted on10:44 pm - Oct 10, 2016


With regards the VAT on the supplies made, bearing in mind these are only rumours. It really depends who is making the taxable supply. The output tax is due from the person making that supply. 

Rangers selling season tickets will be them making the taxable supply, the VAT will be due in the quarter in which the tickets is sold (not when the payment is received as they will be too big to be cash accounting).

Sales of matchday tickets will be the same. As will standard rated sales on those matchdays. Sales of merchandising will probably be by Rangers Retail with the VAT due from them.

I have no idea how semi final ticket sales work. If the clubs selling to their fans is the supply, or if it is the SPFL is making the supply (bearing in mind the two semi-finals have the money split four ways). My money would be on the SPFL making the supply for VAT purposes but that really is a guess. 

Bottom line, it is entirely possible that Rangers have been collecting VAT they have charged customers and not passed that money onto HMRC and were using it to fund the business. Craig Whyte certainly did that. However I have yet to see anything to substantiate the rumour. 

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John ClarkPosted on12:06 am - Oct 11, 2016


torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)October 10, 2016 at 22:01
‘…Been missing for a while(waiting on arrival of 1st grandchild,a smashing wee boy!).’
_______
Welcome to the grandad club,tjb, and congratulations to the parents, and to you! Delighted for you.

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Big PinkPosted on1:11 am - Oct 11, 2016


Heard tonight, from a reliable but not un-conflicted source, that the hat is being passed round by King and his board. Much hope was placed in Brian Kennedy to provide the resources that might allow a charge for European footie next season. Alas that ship may have sailed.

Medium term strategy has now been replaced by a short-term one, and although there is concern with regard to liquidity, cashing in on some assets in January is now the main plank of the ‘stay alive’ strategy – those asset sales funding repayment of any loans raised this month to pay the bills.

My follow-up question was quite simple. “What circumstance, actual or theoretical, would bring an end to this hand to mouth stuff?”

The answer is “as far as we can see, none”

My trouble with this kind of info is that plausibly extrapolated scenarios are not too difficult to come up with. I’d have more trust in that kind of information if a reasonable answer was provided to the last question – but I suspect what I got was an intelligent guess, and not inside knowledge.

On another note, I was visited at home last week by a former footballer of my acquaintance, who played under Billy McNeill and Alex Ferguson. On other business in my neighbourhood, he was on the cadge for a cuppa and a catch-up.

During the course of our chat, it transpired that he is very strongly and genuinely of the belief that TRFC ARE RFC – no ifs or buts or maybes.

“Are you one of these sad people who think it’s a new club?” he asked me? 13

“Drink yer tea!” I replied sighing, bringing an end to that strand of the discussion, embarking instead on a discourse on Jeremy Corbyn, which led to speculation that he was turning Labour into a ‘different party’. 08

My theory that people who make their living out of football are invested heavily in the Myth gets another nudge in the direction of credibilty. Wish I felt better!

Can I ask John Clark to count to one hundred before replying? 🙂

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upthehoopsPosted on7:18 am - Oct 11, 2016


BIG PINKOCTOBER 11, 2016 at 01:11  
Heard tonight, from a reliable but not un-conflicted source, that the hat is being passed round by King and his board. Much hope was placed in Brian Kennedy to provide the resources that might allow a charge for European footie next season. Alas that ship may have sailed.
Medium term strategy has now been replaced by a short-term one, and although there is concern with regard to liquidity, cashing in on some assets in January is now the main plank of the ‘stay alive’ strategy – those asset sales funding repayment of any loans raised this month to pay the bills.

===========================

My opinion (which many within football would regard as meaningless anyway) is that they don’t have a single asset on their books they could make decent money from selling. Those free transfers and development fee signings from England are here for a reason. Not one of their players has excelled in the top league, and the comfort zone of playing Championship level teams and below is obvious. 

They have obviously looked across the city and seen the riches Celtic have made from buying small and selling big. They will also see that Celtic have signed quite a few that didn’t make it, and Celtic invest far more in their worldwide scouting than Rangers do.  As always the main problem is the media. They would have us believe that Warburton, Weir and MacParland are so good they can spot every gem from down south that no other club with immensely greater scouting resources manages to identify.  One day someone may actually point out the King has no clothes, but remember they didn’t even do that with Craig Whyte until he pointed it out himself. 

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goosygoosyPosted on8:51 am - Oct 11, 2016


HOMUNCULUSOCTOBER 10, 2016 at 22:44  With regards the VAT on the supplies made, bearing in mind these are only rumours. It really depends who is making the taxable supply. The output tax is due from the person making that supply. 
Rangers selling season tickets will be them making the taxable supply, the VAT will be due in the quarter in which the tickets is sold (not when the payment is received as they will be too big to be cash accounting).
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Mmm…………. I forgot about that
This means
CW either
Had access to a big chunk of the 2011 2012 ST money on the date of the sale for a £1 in May 2011
Or
Minty withdrew this money from RFC before the sale
If CW did get the money and kept it then HMRC were after him for a much bigger sum than the WTC overdue tax when they sent in the Bailiffs in Aug 2011
which could make it a large enough sum to warrant a WU order

Or
HMRC ignored unpaid VAT on STs and sent in the Bailiffs for the WTC money
Now why would they do that?

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)Posted on9:27 am - Oct 11, 2016


John ClarkOctober 11, 2016 at 00:06       13 Votes 
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)October 10, 2016 at 22:01 ‘…Been missing for a while(waiting on arrival of 1st grandchild,a smashing wee boy!).’ _______ Welcome to the grandad club,tjb, and congratulations to the parents, and to you! Delighted for you.
——————————
Thanks John.
Grandad duties already kicking in.Seem to be the only designated driver.22
It’s great,though.

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bfbpuzzledPosted on10:58 am - Oct 11, 2016


Torrejohnbhoy
just joined that same club -apparently I am wandering about with a constant glaikit smile and have received many warnings from the wee fellows mother as to my future behaviour vis a vis adventures oil grease mud and more – canny beat it?

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wee_alphaPosted on12:19 pm - Oct 11, 2016


BIG PINK
“Are you one of these sad people who think it’s a new club?” he asked me? 
Maybe you should have replied – “God no! I am one of those smart people who KNOW they are a new club!” 21

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The Cat NR1Posted on1:42 pm - Oct 11, 2016


goosygoosyOctober 11, 2016 at 08:51 
HOMUNCULUSOCTOBER 10, 2016 at 22:44  With regards the VAT on the supplies made, bearing in mind these are only rumours. It really depends who is making the taxable supply. The output tax is due from the person making that supply.  Rangers selling season tickets will be them making the taxable supply, the VAT will be due in the quarter in which the tickets is sold (not when the payment is received as they will be too big to be cash accounting). ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Mmm…………. I forgot about that This means CW either Had access to a big chunk of the 2011 2012 ST money on the date of the sale for a £1 in May 2011 Or Minty withdrew this money from RFC before the sale If CW did get the money and kept it then HMRC were after him for a much bigger sum than the WTC overdue tax when they sent in the Bailiffs in Aug 2011 which could make it a large enough sum to warrant a WU order
Or HMRC ignored unpaid VAT on STs and sent in the Bailiffs for the WTC money Now why would they do that?
============================
Don’t forget the involvement of Ticketus in the financing of CW’s purchase of RFC PLC.
Didn’t Charlotte publish some amateurish looking invoices relating to that?

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woodsteinPosted on1:42 pm - Oct 11, 2016


Shsh,  do NOT tell anybody.

04

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wottpiPosted on2:00 pm - Oct 11, 2016


BIG PINK
My theory that people who make their living out of football are invested heavily in the Myth gets another nudge in the direction of credibilty.
——————————————————————————————————–

I think we have a general problem with regard to how those ‘within the game’ view the fans.

I’m my line of work I believe I know more than the general public with regard to why things are done and how things operate. However that does not necessarily make the views of the public any less valid being they are ultimately the end users who should be satisfied with the product/service.

When I am asked about things by someone outwith my industry I try and give an explanation as to why things as they are (financial, technical, political, legal etc), the options that may have been examined to get there and sometimes I will even agree the situation being raised/complained about is ridiculous.

I hope that in dealing with people in such a manner , even if they still don’t like the answers, I come across as professional, well informed and on top of my game, along with having a degree of empathy and understanding of the issues raised.
 
The explanation of why people within the game (despite all the headlines in 2012) fail to recognise the death Rangers is never given. After four years Andrew Smith’s (Scotsman) communication with John Clark has been the closest  to getting to some form of adult dialogue.

It is within such an atmosphere that the national manager believes he can easily dismiss the folk paying his wages.

Strachan appears to have a dim view of the public commenting on his tactics and capabilities. While I agree there can be some ill informed nonsense of radio phone ins and the like,  it seems to have passed him by that many a Scotland supporter will have played the game at some point, perhaps even to a decent level. Some will be coaches taking all manner of sides and a good many will have participated in SFA coaching courses aimed at producing his players of tomorrow (if he is in the job after tonight!!). Some will have played and coached other sports, again perhaps to a high level.

Such people should not be dismissed so easily by trying to avoid awkward questions or talking of and outstanding performance of a chosen striker who hasn’t scored in 20 odd games.

Yes the manager needs to protect his players in an attempt to get the best from them but he also needs to tell the truth and give supporters a bit of insight into his thinking. 

As someone said on Sportsound last night we all know that Rhodes and McCromack have been sold for higher transfer fees than Chris Martin. We know they have consistently scored more goals than him throughout their careers. We all know that Griffiths (CL and Europa cup Experience) can score and S. Fletcher seems to be gaining a bit of form again. Nothing against the lad but Chris Martin seems no more of a candidate for an international striker than any of the aforementioned.

Why do people within the game think the rest of us are some form of pond swilling imbeciles who no experience of team building, tactics, delivery of strategy, assessment of competitors, planning and preparation etc etc etc.

Frankly from the national team manger and his masters downwards there are very few ‘inside the game’ who fill me with confidence at this time with regard to how the game is managed and where we are going.

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bluPosted on2:35 pm - Oct 11, 2016


wottpi
OCTOBER 11, 2016 at 14:00

As someone said on Sportsound last night we all know that Rhodes and McCromack have been sold for higher transfer fees than Chris Martin. We know they have consistently scored more goals than him throughout their careers. We all know that Griffiths (CL and Europa cup Experience) can score and S. Fletcher seems to be gaining a bit of form again. Nothing against the lad but Chris Martin seems no more of a candidate for an international striker than any of the aforementioned.

wottpi, from what I heard on that programme, there was no analysis by Kenny McIntyre or any of the studio panel as to why Chris Martin was chosen for the role against Lithuania, although there was plenty of proramme host led knee-jerk reaction about the result and an apparent determination that Strachan (no need to even bother using the man’s forename apparently) must go . There was a stunned silence when Steven Pressley was brought into the discussion and provided a cogent rationale for the tactical choice and suggested that Lithuania’s defensive set-up (sitting deep) would not be ideal for Lee Griffiths. The listener who raised the transfer fee figures may have got his facts right but he didn’t address the question either. My quibble isn’t with him though, it’s these so-called journalists and/or a BBC Scotland editorial choice to go for the provocative tabloid approach without any intelligence being applied. From what I heard, Steven Pressley, Stephen Thomson, Chic Young and Barry Ferguson weren’t comfortable with this and reasonably wanted a wider examination of why Scotland’s national teams (Anna Signeul’s charges excepted) struggle to qualify for major championships. Not surprisingly, the logical conclusion for all this was that those on the 6th floor at Hampden might have something to do with it.  

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tonyPosted on4:50 pm - Oct 11, 2016


phil’s latest 
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-ibrox-shambles-moves-up-to-sevcon-2/

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StevieBCPosted on5:01 pm - Oct 11, 2016


TONY
OCTOBER 11, 2016 at 16:50

phil’s latest http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-ibrox-shambles-moves-up-to-sevcon-2/
=========================

Phil is allegedly, implying – in writing – that there are issues wrt the last 2 quarters of VAT payments.

Well, if he is not quickly forced to take down this particular post…then we all need to stock up on the popcorn !  22

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tonyPosted on5:19 pm - Oct 11, 2016


STEVIEBC
i’m at asda just now 04

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StevieBCPosted on5:28 pm - Oct 11, 2016


TONYOCTOBER 11, 2016 at 17:19
…STEVIEBCi’m at asda just now
===================
Could you get me a family sized pack please, and I’ll square you up later ?  Cheers.  21 

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wottpiPosted on5:29 pm - Oct 11, 2016


BLUOCTOBER 11, 2016 at 14:35

I hear what you are saying re the wider matter but re the striker issue Griffiths has to deal with defenses full of big bruisers sitting deep week in week out.

Are Strachan, McGhee, Pressley  saying that he can’t be effective against Lithuanian defenders and we can’t alter our system to deal with that.

Our attack relying on a ‘non-scoring striker’ is therefore dictated by their 117 world ranked defense as opposed to playing to our strengths.

Frankly ridiculous and over analyzing things  IMHO.

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tonyPosted on5:30 pm - Oct 11, 2016


james forrest latest 
http://thecelticblog.com/2016/10/blogs/one-painful-lesson-hasnt-been-enough-for-ibrox-fans-thats-why-another-is-on-its-way/

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Corrupt officialPosted on5:52 pm - Oct 11, 2016


TONYOCTOBER 11, 2016 at 16:50
phil’s latest 
———————–
    If Phil is correct then we are talking overdues stretching back 8 months at least. That would be quite a while before this season’s fixture list was compiled. 
   If Sevco have played by the rules (no laughing at the back) then the SPFL should have been well aware of these overdues  when compiling said fixture list.
If I can refer you to JC’s post.
JOHN CLARKOCTOBER 10, 2016 at 08:44
http://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__therulesofthescottishprofessionalfootballleagueasat19january2016_1461332495.pdf
“HMRC Obligations and ReportingE20Subject to Rules E21 and E28, any Club which:……E20.4does not within twenty eight days of the date of an assessment issued by HMRC on or after 1 June 2014 pay to HMRC the full amount of the Club’s Tax Liabilities arising as a result of that assessment……….. shall report each such Default Event in writing to the Secretary within 2 days of the Default Event arising…”

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tonyPosted on6:39 pm - Oct 11, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIAL
are SFA hiding in the bunker again

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Corrupt officialPosted on7:01 pm - Oct 11, 2016


TONYOCTOBER 11, 2016 at 18:39
CORRUPT OFFICIALare SFA hiding in the bunker again
   —————————————
   Again?……Are you implying they have ventured out previously? 15   
Bad cess, (as JC would say) on  my arithmetic, but two quarters is only 6 monhs…D’Oh.   But that is still pre-fixture list. lol. 
If it pans out correct though, it does beggar the question as to why they were given a license to compete. 

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tonyPosted on7:08 pm - Oct 11, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIAL
oh they venture out now and again but it’s only a coincidence it happens when scotland are playing away,they are after all only doing their duty in first class

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John ClarkPosted on7:39 pm - Oct 11, 2016


wottpiOctober 11, 2016 at 14:00
‘…I think we have a general problem with regard to how those ‘within the game’ view the fans.’
_______
An excellent piece, wottpi, if I may say so.
It is beyond doubt that of the thousands of football supporters in this country do know enough about the game to ask intelligent questions , and are entitled to  expect both respect for their understanding, and reasoned answers/explanations.
It’s a very poor manager in any discipline who is not prepared to show why his ‘decisions’ appear to him to be sound and appropriate , and defend them on that basis against alternative, reasoned viewpoints.

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shugPosted on9:06 pm - Oct 11, 2016


National team getting pumped.

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shugPosted on9:18 pm - Oct 11, 2016


Is the national team poor very poor or just pure keech.

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causaludendiPosted on9:27 pm - Oct 11, 2016


Pure p!sh. ?

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shugPosted on9:31 pm - Oct 11, 2016


It is all the fans who have never seen scotland getting to a major tournament I feel sorry for at least I am of an age where it was normal to get there but to be keech at it lol.

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goosygoosyPosted on9:46 pm - Oct 11, 2016


I could say
its because “Rangers Stars” are not getting capped
But in all honesty
And
Hate saying it 
It`s time to go Wee Man

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goosygoosyPosted on10:08 pm - Oct 11, 2016


A bit of light relief
…………..from the Gullibillies Forum
  
 
Rangers will play 44 ******* 2
Started by MacBoyd, 49 minutes ago
 Posted 46 minutes ago
That’s 46 players mate. I reckon the papes would make another film about it if we tried that on Friday. 
Posted 44 minutes ago
44 2? If we don’t get a win like that Warburton must go. Posted 44 minutes ago
For ***** sake, you’re allowed to swear on the internet.Posted 43 minutes ago
Turn the computer off, and never turn it on again.   47 minutes ago, graeme_4 said:
Turn the computer off, and never turn it on again. 
Computer? Is it 2005?  43 minutes ago, MacBoyd said:
Computer? Is it 2005?
Ok. Your carer’s iPad.  
 

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Corrupt officialPosted on10:36 pm - Oct 11, 2016


How can a team that has Griffiths as its 3rd choice striker get beaten?   11

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tonyPosted on10:42 pm - Oct 11, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIAL
because they have an arrogant garden gnome as 1st choice manager

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bordersdonPosted on10:50 pm - Oct 11, 2016


goosygoosyOctober 11, 2016 at 21:46 Hate saying it It`s time to go Wee Man
========================
Hard to argue goosy but where do we go from here? Distinct lack of quality in most areas of the park. Very average players with a few exceptions. Can’t fault their effort but just not good enough. Wrong selections/tactics who knows! Not looking good for qualification but teams will take points of each other in this group and if we can be in there doing that then there is maybe just still a chance? Don’t know why I am thinking this when feeling so desperately bad about tonight’s performance in the second half especially. Sack WGS? I wish I knew the answer, is there one? Who else? I’m off tae bed tae greet!

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bluPosted on11:22 pm - Oct 11, 2016


wottpi @ 17:29, you’re right, my gripe was with the media. Lee answered the question pretty clearly in his cameo appearance 

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John ClarkPosted on11:29 pm - Oct 11, 2016


I’ve had, for me, quite a strenuously busy day today ( well, the routine was disrupted by having to take my ‘recalled’ car in to get its fire-bomb potentialities eliminated c/o Toyota, and by some consequentially additional bits of bother like  taking Mrs C hither and thither on money-spending pre-Oz-visit trips to ‘shops’ because she enjoyed being in the loan car ( almost new Auris , with a puzzling email facility?).

So, I looked forward to  a nice relaxing evening listening to Liam MacCleod’s commentary , as Scotland banged in some cleverly worked goals, while keeping a clean score sheet themselves.

I was very sadly disappointed.

There was no ‘clean sheet’, and the only cleverly worked goals were scored by the Slovaks.

And, I have to say, Liam was perhaps losing his focus as a commentator as he repeatedly questioned WGS’s position. ( I think it’s a step too far for the ‘commentator’ to get too involved in the critique of the managerduring the game)

I have problems, of course,  with the ‘ SFA.’
But I still want my national team to do well.

And they did not do well tonight. And it does kind of depress me.

i’m sure the Slovakian press will be kind to us. But , kind or severely critical, it will be embarrassing, as will the one line or one paragraph reports in the other European papers.

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Big PinkPosted on12:12 am - Oct 12, 2016


John Clark;

When you off to Oz? Going sooner because torrejohnbhoy’s news has made you hanker for the grandweans?

I hope the firebomb has been defused 🙂

________________

I think you are correct about Liam McLeod. In his defence though, the surly individual that the Scotland manager has become has probably irked most of the press-pack this week – and is also far more recognisable as the private version of WGS of my experience 11 years ago.

Chris Sutton has definitely got the ball rolling on WGS-bashing – proof positive that footballers CAN nurse their wrath at just below scorching for 11 years 🙂

_________________

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Big PinkPosted on12:18 am - Oct 12, 2016


At long last, we are now preparing for a new podcast (which will be a regular feature) sometime next week.

Over the past year we have spent a fortune on the equipment which gives us the capacity to deliver regular programmes. It is high time we made use of it, and our aim is to publish the podcast next Thursday.

One or two blog regulars will be joining me for some chat including a State of the Union address, the impact of TRFC in the top league, and the woeful situation the national team finds itself in.

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Ex LudoPosted on12:36 am - Oct 12, 2016


To be fair to WGS, I think he maybe getting mixed up between Derek Riordan and Leigh Griffiths. If memory serves was there not some issues between the former and the current national team manager? Easy mistake to make since both players previously played for Hibernian.

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helpmaboabPosted on12:39 am - Oct 12, 2016


Slightly of topic. I was marking something in my SFM calendar and it occurred to me that I hadn’t seen anything from the ‘Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath’ guy. Red Lichtie?.

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Big PinkPosted on12:57 am - Oct 12, 2016


Ex Ludo

If I ever write another book (and of course I won’t), there will be half a chapter on the Deke saga 🙂

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John ClarkPosted on1:04 am - Oct 12, 2016


helpmaboabOctober 12, 2016 at 00:39
‘.. ‘Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath’ guy. Red Lichtie?.’
___________
Not at all OT, helpmaboab.
Red Lichtie is the voice, the iconic voice, of non-central-belt Scottish football.
We all know what he represents: the true, honest-to-God spirit of genuine sporting competitiveness on the field of play, and bugger the ‘holding companies’ and the over-reaching cheating supposedly personal billionaires who perverted our game, and the football authorities who allowed and encouraged such buggeration.
Red Lichtie, speak to us again.

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StevieBCPosted on1:26 am - Oct 12, 2016


So disappointed although it’s easily ‘still mathematically possible’ to qualify – but guess the bookies will have raised those odds significantly.

Don’t like WGS but even Mourinho or Guardiola would struggle with the available quality.

If Strachan does go, then NOW you would think that Regan’s position would also be queried by the SMSM ? 

How many millions of pounds have been lost to Scottish grass roots level with continuing failure by the national team?

It’s not all Strachan’s fault, IMO.

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brimacelPosted on6:02 am - Oct 12, 2016


Davie Provan in commentary,
“it’s not that Scotland are getting beat. They’re getting beat by a bang average team.”
Really?

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upthehoopsPosted on7:14 am - Oct 12, 2016


STEVIEBCOCTOBER 11, 2016 at 17:01  
Phil is allegedly, implying – in writing – that there are issues wrt the last 2 quarters of VAT payments.
Well, if he is not quickly forced to take down this particular post…then we all need to stock up on the popcorn !  

========================

Interestingly today’s Daily Record has regurgitated an old story about a number of Celtic figures being involved n a tax avoidance scheme with a film company. Even though this is news at least a couple of years old, they have gone with a front page headline, following an ‘investigation’.  I have no time for any sort of tax avoidance other than that which is legally permitted, so tough sh*t to anyone who gets caught in anything dodgy. However the Record headline is misleading to say the least. There is no question at all that any of these figures did not pay all tax due on their earnings with Celtic, or that the club did anything improper. It has the smell of a planted story all over it. You don’t suppose there might be a big tax story directly related to another Scottish football club about to hit. do you?!!!!!!

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Bill1903Posted on7:40 am - Oct 12, 2016


Oh dear absolutely dire stuff last night. It would make a glass eye greet the state we are in.
England coming up next which for those us living down here is a nightmare if we lose.

Oh and another thing. Its bad enough the Aberdeen v Morton semi being at 1215 KO on a Saturday(with train disruption that day)
But to insist its played at Hampden with a probable crowd under 20 thousand is ridiculous. A full house at Easter Road or Tynecastle would have at least made the game look important. You have to wonder if those running the game have the slightest clue.
Scotland needs a strong Arbroath(and new manager)

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bluPosted on9:17 am - Oct 12, 2016


Indeed UTH 07:14 – the list below from another film investment LLP could just as easily have been on the front page. Maybe not as high profile as the one used but the story printed smacks of agenda. And it’s not an agenda against all highly paid people who engage in aggressive tax avoidance. 

Barry Ferguson
Derek Whyte
Paddy Connolly
Dale Gordon
Gordon Durie
Darren Jackson
Billy McKinlay
Michael O’Neill

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FinlochPosted on9:44 am - Oct 12, 2016


This forum was richer for the humour of Red Lichtie and Scottish Football has never more needed a strong Arbroath.
Not just the Gayfielders though, we need a strong Brechin, Stranraer, Gala Fairydean Rovers, Morton, St Johnstone, Inverness, Fort William, Irvine, East Kilbride and even Meigle amateurs.
And I don’t just mean good for a season or two to play league yo-yo and grant bragging rights for a while.
When our game is strong at the grass roots Football in Scotland like any living structure we will be stronger at the top end.

But this takes vision and commitment.
Long term vision from the institutions running our game in association with other big stakeholders like the Scottish Government, and the clubs themselves. 

Right now the lack of real vision is the main issue.
In our game the fans might in reality be the stakeholders but you’d never know it in a business that only pays lip service to the customer because everything is about being “the winner”.
And there is always next season when things just might be better.
It is the universal language of “footballese” we all speak every day.
I’ve written about it here how the normal fan (which we all are on occasions) is only interested in “The ins and outs, ups and downs, comings and goings and toings and froings”.
Well “That’s aa Ballacks min”.

Arbroath FC got their nickname from the nearby light marking the entrance to Arbroath Harbour so returning fishing boats could navigate the naturally occurring day to day problems like winds, currents, and weather.
A beacon.
A strategy.
Two things missing in Scottish Football. 
Easy words to say and easy ideas to talk about.
But change is uncomfortable.

We are where we are .
Scottish Football in 2016 finds it self with one big super-club that wants to stay the biggest because it craves to re-become what it used to be (and why should it agree to any future scenario where it is less dominant)?
It feels frustrated and held back by the very vacuum it has helped create and constantly needs and wants more.
Scottish Football also has one “used to be big team” who are currently a little distracting and still in the depths of aftermath of a series of carpetbaggers. I think it will continue to exist but there will be colourful distractions ahead.

Scottish Football has no independent voices looking to find the right way forward.
In fact it’s a game of musical chairs with everyone refusing to stand up in case they lose their nice comfortable seat.
– Our two biggest fan based clubs will fight to keep what they fought for before.
– Our media seems to be totally fixated with recreating our erstwhile duopoly and maintaining the West of Scotland Power-base.
– Our two key Glasgow based and infused Football Management institutions, the SFA and SPFL are dominated by our current biggest club and their old establishment favourite.
– And finally our government is complicit with all that the key people in our game have done and are doing.
(Nicola is hyper wary of Scottish Football with its peculiar religio-political composition which makes any move or statement unpredictable, so better left unsaid in public)

So we have a failing national team and issues to discuss.
I’d say that is not where the discussions should be focussed.
– We need to think bigger.
– We are collectively in a mess because we don’t know where we are going 
– We have puppets at the top 
– We have no real strategy for the future (and I’m talking a long term view – not just the next Champions League, World Cup and Euros
– We have a fawning and failing media including one publicly funded institution which avoids asking tough questions because either it is already complicit or else it is scared it will be squeezed out of all the wee stories it needs to fill its empty canyon like pages and shows every day with irrelevant puffery.
– We are clueless commercial and don’t even get our share from the BBC, not when there is an ex Leicester, Everton and English Centre forward taking home more each year from the BBC personally than they pay for our sport in total.

I didn’t see the Scottish game last night because our commercial people couldn’t do the right deal with the BBC or iTV network and then decided that BT’s taudry money is better than letting all the kids in Arbroath and other vital football grass-rooteries see their team play.   
 Maybe that in hindsight was and is a good idea.

This is not just about last night’s miserable outcome.
Its about a game that could be a power for good across our country being mishandled.

And the thing all those in power have in common is they are currently deriving power and or making money and don’t give a toss about Arbroath the wee team or the Red Lichties and Finlochs of this world.

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)Posted on10:15 am - Oct 12, 2016


Morning all,
Can you help me with this,Having a wee debate with a TRFC supporting pal wrt EBTs.I know BDO have been granted leave to appeal to the Supreme Court but have they actually done so?.
If not is there a time limit they must adhere to.?.I understand that if no appeal is forthcoming then COS decision stands.

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Matty RothPosted on10:26 am - Oct 12, 2016


 
Bill1903October 12, 2016 at 07:40
Oh and another thing. Its bad enough the Aberdeen v Morton semi being at 1215 KO on a Saturday(with train disruption that day) But to insist its played at Hampden with a probable crowd under 20 thousand is ridiculous. A full house at Easter Road or Tynecastle would have at least made the game look important. You have to wonder if those running the game have the slightest clue.

 

The old cynic in my wonders if the SFA are quite happy with this state of affairs as it will remind everyone just how important the “Old Firm” is and how irrelevant the rest of us are.
I have no doubt the small crowd will be ignorantly compared by certain Journos to the OF Crowd the next day with not the slightest recognition of the kick of times, travel problems and so on.
Quite a few AFC fans are simply fed up travelling to such a pitifully crap stadium as Hampden for these games anyway.
I’d love to see the SFA have the vision for a new national stadium in Stirling.
OR the balls to admit we don’t need a national stadium and take the games to other grounds around the country.

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SmugasPosted on11:02 am - Oct 12, 2016


Trust me.  The reasons we’re fed up with recent “pitifully crap” trips to hampden are nothing to do with traffic!!!

But the game should have been a stick on for Tynecastle or similar.

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tonyPosted on11:51 am - Oct 12, 2016


SMUGAS
totally agree mate,a full house in either hearts/hibs grounds would have made more sense,but SFA don’t deal in sense

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ChristyboyPosted on11:58 am - Oct 12, 2016


UPTHEHOOPSOCTOBER 12, 2016 at 07:14

Yip, I think you’re right. It sounds like something is definately coming down the pipe. Defo upping the ante. Get yer squirrel counter oot !!  It’s ok treading water, for a bit, but if you’ve got HMRC and Joeybhoy hangin’ on to your legs it’s only a matter of time before you succumb to the depths. 

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bordersdonPosted on12:12 pm - Oct 12, 2016


tonyOctober 12, 2016 at 11:51
SMUGAS totally agree mate,a full house in either hearts/hibs grounds would have made more sense,but SFA don’t deal in sense
===========================================
Agree also. Tynie for atmosphere but Easter Rd would probably give the best chance of making sure all Dandies who wanted a ticket would get one, however given the ko time that might not have been an issue!!

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Long Time LurkerPosted on1:03 pm - Oct 12, 2016


I believe that the SC will hear the BDO appeal in the first quarter of 2017.

Lots of interesting chatter in the last 24 hours – something is brewing. A least one suggestion that HMRC have served a VAT demand on Rangers.

torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)October 12, 2016 at 10:15

Morning all, Can you help me with this,Having a wee debate with a TRFC supporting pal wrt EBTs.I know BDO have been granted leave to appeal to the Supreme Court but have they actually done so?. If not is there a time limit they must adhere to.?.I understand that if no appeal is forthcoming then COS decision stands.

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Kid GlovesPosted on1:19 pm - Oct 12, 2016


I’m not one for banning the press and I do believe in free speech but the way the Daily Record treats Celtic is completely out of control and has been for far too long. 

Today’s appalling rehash of a years old story simply shows that many wealthy people will do anything they can to avoid paying their fair share of tax, regardless of their colour, creed or football team. The fact is that Celtic have played 100% by the rules and yet the Daily Record “Special Investigation” is nothing but an attempt to liken them to another big Glasgow team who have broken every rule in the book. 

Where was the “Special Investigation” looking into the contents of The Offshore Game? What about investigating the shenanigans by the former Murray empire as it bailed out of it’s responsibilities to its pension fund? Nothing. Yet Celtic get it in the neck yet again for something they have not done.

It’s time to ban the Daily Record form Celtic Park. This can not go on. With circulation dropping to around 160K you’ll find they need Celtic more than Celtic need them. 

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oddjobPosted on1:53 pm - Oct 12, 2016


Kid Gloves
John James latest,
“EBT All Stars v LLP  Cinephiles,

This more than balances the article concerned . Sorry can’t post a link.

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AllyjamboPosted on2:10 pm - Oct 12, 2016


I’m not sure that there is a connection to the rumours doing the rounds, but I’ve not read of anyone ‘jetting in’ recently, in fact, there seems to be fewer and fewer words being written about the SMSM’s favourite club, with even less in the way of hyperbole. The coverage is almost at a level with that of some other clubs.

It has long been the norm for there to be a constant stream of feel-good stories published around the day to day events at Ibrox and Murray Park, even when there was nothing much to feel good about, and that has been ramped up over the past 4 years, with an unprecedented repeated ad nauseam ‘thoughts of Warbmeister’ specials-fest. His every word was lauded by the SMSM sycophants.

Now I know there’s been an international break, but that’s never stopped the Warbling in the past (obviously there’s a few problems with the mighty Warbs at the moment), but I’ve not seen any ridiculing online of articles covering interviews of a grovelling nature with the ‘Rangers player of the day’. And what of King and Murray (P)? These true blue heroes seem to have dropped off the radar, other than the odd passing reference. They are hardly mentioned in any article covering anything new, though there’s hardly been anything new written about anything other than Joey Barton, but the thoughts of these previously verbose go-to-men have either not been sought or have been refused.

There is, of course, still column inches to fill, and true to form, they turn the spotlight on dodgy dealings at Celtic, or rather, not at Celtic, more like people who have walked on the Celtic Park turf as employees before investing their own money in a way most of us would see as wrong. But enough has been said over that piece of non-news.

There is a reason for this near absence of news and PR from TRFC. I don’t know what it is, but there will be a reason for it. And that reason isn’t that the news is so good they don’t want the bears getting so excited about it that it causes them to sh@t themselves before they can make it to the woods 😉

Watch this, I’ll be made to eat my words when, at 5 o’clock, a club statement announces that not only have they negotiated Barton’s return, he’s requested a 75% pay-cut into the bargain!

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John ClarkPosted on2:18 pm - Oct 12, 2016


torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)October 12, 2016 at 10:15
‘…..I know BDO have been granted leave to appeal to the Supreme Court but have they actually done so?.’
_________
The Court of Session judgment was reported on 4th November 2015.

BDO had 28 days inwhich to lodge an appeal to the UK Supreme Court.

They announced  on 1st December ( apparently very close to the deadline) their intention to Appeal .
This link  https://www.supremecourt.uk/news/permission-to-appeal.html    shows the applications to appeal that have been been dealt with in the period between  October 2015 and August 2016, showing which of them have been allowed, and which knocked back.

There is no mention of an application from BDO having yet even been considered, let alone being granted and moved on for further Court hearing.

I think we would have heard if BDO had changed their minds about appealing, or if their application had been considered and rejected. We would certainly have heard from the SMSM if their application had been considered and accepted!

So, the likelihood is that their Lordships simply have not yet even got round to looking at the application, or are maybe just in the process of doing so.

There was an earlier rumour to the effect that nothing much would happen until well into 2017.Whether that referred only to consideration of the application, or to the earliest time when a successful application would go to full actual consideration of the CoS judgment is not clear ( to me, anyway).

I did see something ( can’t quite remember where) about the ripples of anxiety running through the ‘tax avoidance’ industry as they consider the implications of a Supreme Court judgment upholding the Court of Session view! And it would not surprise me if BDO were being financially supported by members of that industry anxious to secure a favourable result.

But who knows? Maybe as I write, BDO is learning that their aplication has been chucked out! ( as I personally think it ought to be!)

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HomunculusPosted on2:42 pm - Oct 12, 2016


BDO commented on the EBT / appeal position in their June 2016 report.

The relevant section is attached.

Given that there is no update, and from what JC says, I would envisage this is still the case.

I suspect he is also correct with regards this action being supported by others in the “tax avoidance industry”. I further suspect that HMRC are more than happy for this appeal to go ahead, they are currently by far the biggest creditor and sit on the liquidation committee. They may well see this as a nice straightforward way to see off the bane of EBT schemes once and for all. 

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bordersdonPosted on2:42 pm - Oct 12, 2016


Kid GlovesOctober 12, 2016 at 13:19I’m not one for banning the press and I do believe in free speech but the way the Daily Record treats Celtic is completely out of control and has been for far too long. 
Today’s appalling rehash of a years old story simply shows that many wealthy people will do anything they can to avoid paying their fair share of tax, regardless of their colour, creed or football team. The fact is that Celtic have played 100% by the rules and yet the Daily Record “Special Investigation” is nothing but an attempt to liken them to another big Glasgow team who have broken every rule in the book. 
Where was the “Special Investigation” looking into the contents of The Offshore Game? What about investigating the shenanigans by the former Murray empire as it bailed out of it’s responsibilities to its pension fund? Nothing. Yet Celtic get it in the neck yet again for something they have not done.
It’s time to ban the Daily Record form Celtic Park. This can not go on. With circulation dropping to around 160K you’ll find they need Celtic more than Celtic need them. 
=========================================================
Your post made me google the article to see what was getting you so upset and I have to say that I find the above a bit OTT. The article names and shames a number of individuals and other unamed individuals who have used eg film industry investment to shield their (as I understand it) after tax income from further tax. Where I do agree with you is that it does not draw the distinction between that and EBT type schemes that are designed to avoid tax and NIC for both employers and employees. The article does however remind readers of the MIH/Oldco EBT stuff. To say it is attacking Celtic FC is a bit OTT and even paranoid. In my opinion 22.
ps at least one person named probably was doubly at it!

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Kid GlovesPosted on3:33 pm - Oct 12, 2016


@BORDERSDON
Sorry to have to strongly disagree with you. Did you know that there are actually more ex-Rangers players and Managers involved in these LLP schemes than ex-Celts? And that’s not counting the EBTs. Yet for some reason Celtic are on the front page.

Celtic were linked in the headline to £434m of tax evasion when it was absolutely NOTHING to do with Celtic and the £434m is a figure that includes everyone in the scheme of which there are many, with the Celtic connection being only a tiny fraction of that amount.

Why no highlighting of the ‘Rangers’ connection? It’s not paranoia or OTT. This is a deliberate blackening of Celtic’s reputation. They know that most won’t read it but will see only the headline and assume Celtic are every bit as bad as Rangers.

Have a look at https://johnjamessite.com as it has some excellent info on this. I’m a very irregular poster here but a regular reader and have to say I’m incensed at yet another example of shocking SMSM behaviour.

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John ClarkPosted on4:04 pm - Oct 12, 2016


HomunculusOctober 12, 2016 at 14:42
‘…Given that there is no update, and from what JC says, I would envisage this is still the case.’
_________
That was very useful, Homunculus, thank you.
I think, though, that the hearing of 8th March was only the Court of Session’s hearing on whether they should allow BDO to appeal to the Supreme Court.
The BBC reported on 8th March as follows about BDO being allowed to appeal (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35753304 )
“The same[Court of Session] judges have now allowed an appeal to the UK Supreme Cout.
Lord Carloway said: “The court is of the of the view that there is an arguable point in law of public interest which should allow the appeal to the UK Supreme Court to proceed.
“There are significant issues in this case which may apply to other similar situations.”
So,when BDO say  ‘no date has been set for the Supreme Court hearing” they must only mean a hearing by the Supreme Court on whether that Court should grant their application to them to appeal.
As I said, I can’t find any indication that the Supreme court has even considered an application from BDO.It certainly is not shown among those listed on the page  at the link I gave earlier  https://www.supremecourt.uk/news/permission-to-appeal.html
I expect we’ll just have to wait and see what the ‘permission to appeal’ says about applications looked at in September/October 2016.

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StevieBCPosted on4:19 pm - Oct 12, 2016


I’m guessing [?] the main reason that cup semi’s and finals are played at Hampden is to maximise the money made for the SFA & SPFL coffers.

It mibbees also helps – in the blazers’ wee minds at least – to justify the need for retaining such a universally unpopular and unsuitable stadium. 

In the interests of fairness and encouraging – and enabling – local kids to see big games, Hampden could be abandoned with cup games – and national games – simply rotated around Scotland, as necessary.
[Too radical I think for the bunker dwellers ?]

And based on the last 20+ years, why would anyone feel that we need a dedicated Scottish national football stadium anyway ?
The falling attendances for Scotland’s Hampden games cannot be helping SFA finances in particular ?

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