Now that we are at the end of the league season, and with respect to the job still to be done at Tannadice and McDiarmid Park, it seems like a good time for a post holocaust report.
Fig 1 Average Weekly Attendances SPL 2011-2014
Peppered around this page are three charts and a table* showing the attendance figures for the SPL in the last three seasons. A school kid could tell you that there is a positive trend in those charts and figures, but the people who run our national sport will look you straight in the eye and tell you “that can’t be right – Armageddon is coming!”
It is one of the most ridiculous and mendacious situations I have ever come across. The people who run our national game, aided and abetted by those in the MSM (sans the eye contact though) are actually trying to persuade us of how awful our game is and how unsustainable it will be in the absence of one, just one, club.
Think about that. The SFA and the SPFL trying to talk us out of supporting the game unless we all recognise the unique importance of one, just one, club. That is what has happened, no matter how they try to spin it. And despite evidence to the contrary contained in these figures, not one of them has admitted to an error, never mind the downright lies that they told to support the position they held, the one where anyone speaking of sporting integrity was mocked and ridiculed.
Whilst growing up as football supporter in the 60s, one of things I was constantly bombarded with via the medium of the tabloid newspapers was that football clubs should be grateful for the publicity afforded them via their back pages. These were probably reasonable claims, especially in the light of the relative lack of access to players and officials conceded to the hacks in those days, and the pre-eminent cultural position in which they helped to place football. Alongside that, the broadcast media, particularly Archie Macpherson’s Sportscene and Arthur Montford’s Scotsport could be relied on to talk the game up. Of course, there was something in it for the papers – sales. The more column inches devoted to the national sport, the further northward their sales, and consequently advertising revenues travelled.
Fig 2 Avg. Attendances excl Celtic & Rangers
The situation was further cemented by the fact that the press in that ante-interweb era held a monopoly over the exchange and dissemination of information. That symbiotic, win-win relationship between football and the press was as much a part of football reality as the Hampden Roar. It also endured for decades. The press would talk up the game to such an extent that folk often remarked that they hadn’t realised how much they had enjoyed a particular match until they had read Malky Munro or Hughie Taylor’s report the next day. Archie Macpherson is on record as having said the same thing about legendary commentator David Francey, “It was a much better game to listen to than to see!”
Today that symbiosis is broken. The press themselves, in print and in front of microphones consistently belittle the product, talk of crises and Armageddon, of our own version of the Eisenhower domino effect of clubs going to the wall one after another.
Aided and abetted by the two chief bureaucrats in charge of Scottish football, Stuart Regan and Neil Doncaster, who have consistently helped to hammer home the message that Scottish football is not good enough, and cannot sustain itself financially without Rangers, a club that could not itself sustain itself financially to the extent that it is being liquidated.
At a time when Scottish football was clearly in crisis, and badly in need of sponsorship which could mitigate the effects of that crisis, the press and the authorities sought to strengthen their own negotiating hand by making negative claims about the state of the game which never came to pass, and for which they have never apologised. The actual situation, which would not have been hard to predict had anyone actually bothered to analyse the business of Scottish football, is summarised quite easily by saying this;
- Since Rangers’ liquidation and subsequent absence from the top league, the average home attendance of the other clubs has INCREASED overall (See Fig 2).
- In this season, the other clubs have added 50,000 fans to home attendances compared to 2011-12 (the last year Rangers were in competition).
- In that time the league has been won (twice) by Celtic, and the other honours have been claimed by St, Mirren, Aberdeen, Celtic and (either) Dundee United or St Johnstone.
- In that time, both Dunfermline Athletic and Hearts (who both had historical financial problems) entered – and exited – administration after fan-led buyouts.
- Dundee United have cleared off their bank debt.
- Kilmarnock have restructured their bank debt, freeing the club from a precarious long-term situation.
- League reconstruction has allowed some money to trickle down to the second tier clubs in an attempt to mitigate the immediate effects of relegation and to reward ambitious clubs.
Looking at the table of attendances above, it is pretty clear that immediately upon Rangers exit, the overall figures took a dip. However there was little difference the in the figures if you leave Rangers out of the equation (Fig 3) – despite Celtic’s attendance taking a hit that year (down by around 5,000 per home match).
Taking Celtic out of the calculations, it is clear that there is a 6,000 uplift in this average (Fig 2).
It is still undeniable that less people overall are watching football (Fig 1), but the trend is upward if one leaves the Ibrox club out of the picture.
Furthermore, this statistic exposes the double edged sword that is retention of home gates. The fact that gates are not shared is predicated upon the notion that the bigger clubs do not depend on the smaller clubs for income. And since the smaller clubs are no longer recipients of big club largesse, their fortunes are not affected, at least not as much as was suggested by the Regans, Doncasters and Traynors of this parish. The “Trickle-Down” theory of Reganomics said otherwise – but clearly and demonstrably it was wrong.
The abandonment of gate sharing has made Scottish football less interdependent than it once was, but the irony is that it works both ways. There is hardly a club in the country that depends on Rangers for their own existence, and here is the news; small clubs are no longer financially dependent on the former Old Firm.
Fig 3 Excluding Celtic
The fact, that is F-A-C-T, is that Scottish Football attendances in the top division are on the increase. The absence of Rangers has made no appreciably negative difference to any other club, far less caused a catastrophe of biblical proportions.
Even if the fools who were the harbingers of our doom were simply guilty of making an honest mistake, it is clear that they are uncontaminated with the slightest notion of how the game in this country operates. The Old Firm may be dead, but the OF prism is still being peered through by Stuart Regan, Neil Doncaster and the vast majority of print journalists. The latter who failed to honour that age-old football/press symbiosis because they believed, erroneously that David Murray’s dinner table was the hand that has fed them for over a century.
The irony is that as job opportunities diminish in the print sector, so too will the fine dining and patronage. I think they call that evolution.
Two years ago, in the wake of the fans’ season ticket revolt which saw the new Rangers forced to apply for membership of the league and begin at the bottom, those same MSM hacks taunted fans about putting their money where their mouths were. The fans responded splendidly as our statistics demonstrate, but typically there has been no recognition of this either at Hampden or in the media.
And the message from those fans is this: Scottish football is not dying. Not any more. At least not as surely as it was when David Murray started to choke the life out of it in the late 80s. The supporters are returning in numbers to see a competition untainted by the outrageous liberty-taking and rule-breaking of the last couple of decades, and all but one club has emerged from the mire of the Moonbeam Millennium looking forward to a new era.
If authorities allow the new era to thrive by restoring sporting integrity to the agenda, then the numbers, like the opportunities available to more and more clubs, will grow. The question is … will they?
Admittedly, these figures, like any set of statistics, can be cherry-picked to suit almost any argument that you care to construct. The fact remains though, that whilst it would be fanciful and ridiculously over-optimistic to claim that they bear witness to a burgeoning industry, it is utterly dishonest to conclude that they represent financial Armageddon. Armageddon? Aye right!
ecobhoy says:
June 1, 2014 at 12:43 pm
I suppose sub contracting would be the way, but I can’t see that it would be too difficult to set up adequate coverage. Most stadiums in the Premier and championship (still can’t get used to calling it that…) have TV facilities in place anyway, if the Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline play off on BBC Alba was anything to go by(we’ll quietly forget the camping chairs on the running track for pitch side analysis….). Also, the SPFL website has highlights of every single game in the Scottish league – it’s how I’ve kept up with Clyde’s ineptitude when I’ve been unable to make games. Alright, it’s single camera affairs mostly, but the facilities are there.
Whilst I’m clearly not an expert in setting up these things, I can’t believe that start up costs would be anymore than a few million at most. It just seems a no-brainer, and yet we’re still stuck with the whole ‘Here’s 13 million, and think yourselves lucky to get that’ image.
Galling fiver says:
May 31, 2014 at 5:29 pm
7 2 Rate This
————————————-
You have Mail…….
neepheid says:
June 1, 2014 at 12:15 pm
Shooperb says:
June 1, 2014 at 12:00 pm
In simple terms, if an SPFL football channel had been set up, and charged £15 a month subscription, even with as little as 100,000 subscribers (the viewing figure that the least high profile games generally get with Sky/BT), and even if every one of those viewers terminated their deal during the close season, you’d still be pulling in £15 million in TV money, WHICH IS STILL BETTER THAN THE CURRENT £13 MILLION MINUS THE RANGERS SUBSIDY!!!!!!!
===============
I remember when this was proposed, maybe 3 years ago, and it seemed a certainty to go ahead at one point. The advantages are enormous- no more negotiations, for a start, and much less impact on kick-off times, hopefully.
Can anyone help with the costs side of this idea? Would the SPFL have to provide the equipment, the cameramen, the sound equipment, etc? Or would all that be contracted out? On the income side, would the SPFL be able to sell the advertising slots before, after, and at half-time? If so, that could be another fair chunk of income.
=====================
I had a look at this before SPLTV thinking from a narrower angle of CelticTV (that being an existing set up at the time.) I called it Can IPTV save Scottish football and it was published on E Tims but it has gone after they upgraded their site.
I have amended the spreadsheet in the original document which included Rangers and a subscriber base of 50,000 to 100,000 and it is at
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq2m3ggkEX2RdDFTTFRxdE1TYlJyS3paRS04eDVBNXc&usp=drive_web#gid=0
I showed the income from a PPV but also subscriptions and £13 a month is what 100,000 subscribers would need to pay to beat the deal at that time (£65M over 5 years)
The production costs at £2m I’m afraid were just a guess but I imagine they would be contracted out with reduced camera coverage for highlights. If there is anyone in the TV sport production industry they might be able to give a more accurate estimate of costs
Looking at it again I see Hearts and Hibs would need to be removed but if in fact we had SPLTV, the idea of which came after my article, they would be part of a much larger business case which I might have a fresh look at and of course would draw a high audience getting out of the second division ……
The original draft for E Tims is at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K_5dAtELL1oMXnoNcMzUSEk7TPMVankrdcac-RiRnFs/edit
and in it I had a go at estimating what Sky were taking in from Scottish subscribers.
.
Allyjambo says:
June 1, 2014 at 11:35 am
” One day, to actually mount that challenge, they will again need a top quality training facility,..”
——————————————–
So this sale, if proved correct, is of the family silver: A fundamental degradation of the clumpany’s capability.
I had also mused on a possible contingent liability angle; something that would free up the expenditure without entirely breaking the link. Perhaps CW/Ticketus would take take the training ground and lease it back. However this wouldn’t free up cash as any consideration would be offset by the liability.
As has been pointed out, the nearby Allander centre negates the necessity of a further publicly owned leisure development in the vicinity. MP is a wee bit off the beaten track so isn’t ideal as a venue for the general public. The environs thereby are fairly salubrious and the local residents won’t be averse to smacking a tennis ball on a fine summers evening but the MP site looks a bit too extensive for a private venture, however exclusive.
Housing development is the most lucrative potential use for the site I suspect. For those not familiar with the area, it nestles on the edge of perhaps the plushest suburb in Glasgow. Of course a few planning officers would need to be tickled underneath the chin but the rewards might prove irresistible.
Off topic but… the T20 match on Sky just now features the Birmingham BEARS, and guess who their sponsor is…none other than Octopus Investments, of Ticketus fame!
ernie says:
June 1, 2014 at 1:13 pm
Apart from public funding which is a shame I don’t see what the fuss is about Murray Park. A Championship team can get by perfectly well without such a facility as can, and do, most Premiership clubs. End of.
========================================
I often wonder if Celtic would have invested in Lennoxtown to the extent they did were it not for the constant media derision regarding the old Barrowfield Training Ground compared to Murray Park. The worse thing ever for me was when BBC made the Rangers ‘Blue Heaven’ programmes when Rangers were not at the races at any youth level. I wrote to the BBC asking why Rangers had been chosen when Celtic were cleaning up at every level. Their reply was that they had asked Celtic to participate but they refused. My guess would be because they almost certainly believed the BBC would focus on the differences between the training facilities rather than the success on the pitch.
Shooperb says:
June 1, 2014 at 2:14 pm
ecobhoy says:
June 1, 2014 at 12:43 pm
The costs have already all been done when IMG were the consultants to the SPL 3-years-ago – the deal which was mysteriously ditched despite the clubs voting for it. I still can’t find the CF emails on that shady episode. If anything costs will have reduced because of technology advances.
The SPFL just don’t have the in-house expertise to even set this up let alone run it and it would cost a fortune to establish it. They would probably need to contract it out – perhaps to IMG.
============================================
I suppose sub contracting would be the way, but I can’t see that it would be too difficult to set up adequate coverage. Most stadiums in the Premier and championship (still can’t get used to calling it that…) have TV facilities in place anyway, if the Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline play off on BBC Alba was anything to go by(we’ll quietly forget the camping chairs on the running track for pitch side analysis….). Also, the SPFL website has highlights of every single game in the Scottish league – it’s how I’ve kept up with Clyde’s ineptitude when I’ve been unable to make games. Alright, it’s single camera affairs mostly, but the facilities are there.
Whilst I’m clearly not an expert in setting up these things, I can’t believe that start up costs would be anymore than a few million at most. It just seems a no-brainer, and yet we’re still stuck with the whole ‘Here’s 13 million, and think yourselves lucky to get that’ image.
======================================================
There are obviously various levels of expertise and covereage that could be employed but the higher levels start to cost a lot more.
If it’s a club TV feed then supporters will accept a lower level. But I think the expectation quality level will substantially increase if a subscription is being paid to the SPFL. I also think we must be careful not to think of the existing fanbase but we have to look to the future and the youngsters growing up.
If they can flick a channel and get slickly filmed, commentated and produced English or Continental games then would they pay cash for a Dad’s Army alternative.
As I have said before I actually believe that the way forward is well-produced club TV and all sorts of recent developments put that in reach of a lot of clubs and a whole lot of internet TV channels will be desperate for content. It’s just round the corner.
But a problem there – and it could be a major one – is will it just be another penalty for smaller clubs who can’t afford their own TV set-up and rely on income from a TV contract covering The Premiership. I have not included the Championship because TV interest might just be a one-season wonder but it could be a great place for internet-based TV.
We really do need some figures – not so much the set-up costs – but the actual running costs and for that we would need to know the number of games to be covered and the extent of coverage both in filming and commentary terms.
One thing for sure – we can’t keep sitting about getting salami-sliced in TV negotiations with the Big Boy players like Sky and BT. We need to find viable alternatives.
upthehoops says:
June 1, 2014 at 3:18 pm
ernie says:
June 1, 2014 at 1:13 pm
Apart from public funding which is a shame I don’t see what the fuss is about Murray Park. A Championship team can get by perfectly well without such a facility as can, and do, most Premiership clubs. End of.
========================================
I often wonder if Celtic would have invested in Lennoxtown to the extent they did were it not for the constant media derision regarding the old Barrowfield Training Ground compared to Murray Park.
=====================
I wouldn’t disagree with you on that one. But I think a big driver was to do with the whole idea of taking-on prospects to develop and sell-on and having a set-up like Lennoxtown I reckon would be seen as part of that process.
I have no doubt that lennoxtown has to earn its keep financially and would never be retained just for the sake of being a vanity project.
ecobhoy says:
June 1, 2014 at 3:34 pm
I wouldn’t disagree with you on that one. But I think a big driver was to do with the whole idea of taking-on prospects to develop and sell-on and having a set-up like Lennoxtown I reckon would be seen as part of that process.
I have no doubt that lennoxtown has to earn its keep financially and would never be retained just for the sake of being a vanity project.
=======================================
Indeed. I guess what I’m thinking is perhaps an upgrade of Barrowfield for much less than the approx £8m Lennoxtown cost would have been fine. I seem to recall Hibs training ground at Tranent was quoted as costing approx £3M but is often described by the media as an excellent facility, which I’m sure it is. By the same token Lennoxtown receives very little positive comment in the media. It’s not so long ago Radio Clyde were unfavourably comparing Lennoxtown to Murray Park. I suppose it shouldn’t bother me but it does.
Due to immense demand we are very proud to announce that Graeme has agreed to do a second night for The Rangers Support.
Tickets are on sale now…
We are delighted that we have managed to secure a legend of British Football for a night at The Louden Tavern: Ibrox Stadium. One of the most admired men in Rangers History, Graeme Souness will be hosting a Question & Answer evening and we could not be more proud.
Tickets for this event are extremely limited and are available from http://www.thelouden.co.uk/events.html. Priced at £30, this could be a once in a lifetime opportunity to meet a giant of the game.
Doors will open from 6.30pm on the night with the Q&A scheduled to begin at 8pm
Tickets are available on a first come, first served basis and all ticket sales are final
upthehoops says:
June 1, 2014 at 3:51 pm
ecobhoy says:
June 1, 2014 at 3:34 pm
By the same token Lennoxtown receives very little positive comment in the media. It’s not so long ago Radio Clyde were unfavourably comparing Lennoxtown to Murray Park. I suppose it shouldn’t bother me but it does.
================================
It’s at least 10 years since I listened to Clyde – now I remember why 😆
Every time the SMSM does us down for no good reason I just smile and feel sorry for how bad they’re hurting – it must be really painful 😎
sickofitall says:
June 1, 2014 at 4:21 pm
Due to immense demand we are very proud to announce that Graeme has agreed to do a second night for The Rangers Support.
====================================
And we all know the one question that will never be asked on either night. Yip that’s right – it’s the one the SMSM have never asked either.
And the question well it’s as easy as EBT 😆
sickofitall says:
June 1, 2014 at 4:21 pm
“……..Graeme has agreed to do a second night for The Rangers Support……….. this could be a once in a lifetime opportunity to meet a giant of the game.”
Not so much “once in a lifetime” then. More “twice in a weekend”.
Is Graeme doin a Britney in Viva Las Louden ? Don’t you know that they’re Toxic ???
BC_Celt 5.06
Thanks for that.I’ll try via Twitter to make contact.
Auldheid,
I have had some experience in the area of TV production in sport.
I think the production costs you mention are optimistic. Been a while since I was involved, but ten years ago it would have cost over £1m to buy an OB truck equipped with three cameras.
HD has helped costs to rocket, and then there is the (high) cost of satellite time both in production and delivery. To cover the whole league would require multiples of that.
From my own tangential involvement (whilst working at CP) in discussion when SPL TV was being set up, one of the big drawbacks was that Sky had set the production bar very high with multiple camera (12 I think) productions. There was a feeling amongst those involved at Celtic that SPL TV would not be able to afford those productions, and that viewer expectation would be far higher than was comfortable.
I have contacted a former colleague who is involved in subcontracting OBs. When I get any up to date info I will pass it on.
In terms of setting up a talking heads type of TV station thing, it could be done very cheaply (under £10k). I have done exactly that in the past, but OBs – and sports OBs in particular – are a different matter.
It is possible that in the few years since my involvement ceased, costs have come down, but my overwhelming feeling is that production – and not delivery or fulfilment – costs are a huge barrier to SPFLTV.
Big Pink
Cheers. It would be useful to get realistic figures. It would help set the subscription rate to a point where it matches what Sky brings in.
There is additional offsetting income from advertising and on selling plus a possible rise in match day income by us dictating when to televise, which would benefit Celtic most from higher ST uptake and so reduce their TV share.
Re SPFL TV revenue. The problem, as I see it, is that few subscribers will be taking their SkySports subscription JUST for the Scottish football, so the subscription required will be on top of anything they are already paying. That added to the potential/probable reduced production values means that I think the required uptake might be pretty hard to achieve. Club TV might fare better but only for the larger teams; the samller ones would likely suffer.
A decent streaming IPTV solution could work though with a limited number of cameras at each ground and viewing via the web or a web enabled TV.
ecobhoy says
Fair comment ecobhoy but i don’t think by naming the MP it will advance the land bears campaign as i don’t think many bears read this blog,at least not the ones who follow the twitter feeds of the land bear leaders.
I respect your position but it is not me who is threatening to turn up at her surgeries and demand answers and i am just as you did in the past,keeping the blog abreast of what is going on away from the comfort of this blog.
Eddie gold top
Is Sye Webster still running about that neck of the woods
—————————
I had a pint with Sye in May 2012 after Dumbarton beat Arbroath in the play off semi. Great bar Tutties Neuk.
chancer67 says:
June 1, 2014 at 8:14 pm
“i don’t think many bears read this blog”
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Or much else, otherwise they would have remembered this?
Margaret Curran writes to Treasury over Rangers tax case
Tuesday 14th February 2012 | 18:34
Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland Margaret Curran has today written to
the Treasury regarding the situation at Rangers FC, urging the minister
responsible for HMRC to act reasonably in cases involving football clubs,
focusing on the best outcome of the club and the taxpayer.
A copy of the letter is below:
Dear David
I am writing regarding developments with Rangers Football Club. The threat
to one of Scottish football’s oldest institutions is a serious concern, and
these are obviously anxious times for all of those who care about football
in Scotland.
The on-going discussions between HMRC and Rangers are key to reaching a
sustainable outcome for the club. It is of course right that HMRC does its
job and collects tax that is due.
I would however ask that you, as the minister responsible, ensure that this
is done in a reasonable way, focused on the best outcome for the club and
taxpayer. How cases like these are managed will of course not simply impact
on one club or one community given the number of discussions that are
on-going between HMRC and clubs in both Scotland and England.
Yours sincerely
Margaret Curran
WOODSTEIN says :
Great find,
Is that letter available online anywhere,i might just use it.
@Chancer67
IMO you are spreading their message of hate further by identifying her when there was no need to do so.
IMO you have increased the pressure on the MP concerned by bringing this issue to the attention of a wider audience than the handful of crazies who inhabit the twitter site concerned which you are a frequent poster on in various guises.
On several occasions you have apologised to me by PM for publicly misrepresenting my position on the said twitter site and also broke a ‘confidence’ when I have challenged you on the matter. The ‘confidence’ was merely a test btw as I had problems in working out what you were about.
My posts on land issues have been made to provide factual evidence to expose the lies and distortion peddled. They have never been made to increase pressure on individuals who have been attacked or indeed demand that Celtic should take immediate action against the Land Bears.
As I pointed out in my earlier post it would be ludicrous for Celtic to give this handful of Celtic-haters the oxygen of publicity and I actually thought that in our extensive series of PMs that you too had accepted that as the correct course of action.
Obviously not it would now seem but that’s your prerogative. I just have different standards and no need to spend hours on a Rangers twitter site of someone who clearly hates Celtic for what clearly appears to me to be political and cultural motives.
chancer67 says:
June 1, 2014 at 8:52 pm
https://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/46354/margaret_curran_writes_to_treasury_over_rangers_tax_case.html
http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/rangers-run-into-the-ground-as-furious-hmrc-battles-to-claw-back-tax-1-2115739
Some other notes.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/02/page/5/
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/order-order/
woodstein says:
June 1, 2014 at 8:42 pm
============================
Obviously I know of the letter you refer to. Often it’s not necessarily the fact that a letter has been written by a politician or indeed the contents that is the most important factor.
The real story can be what prompted the letter to be written and who approached the politician concerned.
I make this as a general observation and do not claim to have any specific knowledge in this particular case.
ecobhoy says:
June 1, 2014 at 9:14 pm
You are spot on ecobhoy, and I accept this as a general observation. No questions asked.
@ecobhoy
I think you are protesting too much about this,if you are saying that i have brought about pressure to the MP in question,then i don’t agree with you assertions.Twitter is a world away from blogs like this and if you put yourself out there you need to expect the odd looney jumping aboard and not agreeing with your views on the world.
The MP’s own parliamentary colleagues have tweeted responses to allegations and that’s good enough for me to have a say on it.
I’ll admit i got carried away with some of my exchanges with the land bears but i did ask you if it was ok to put your posts on twitter and you replied that now was the time to do it,so i think you have double standards saying that i broke a confidence.
The part about spending hours on a twitter site is laughable maybe a hour or so every other night yes but i do have a life away from this, and it would seem that there are some on here who have become institutionalised and think that they own the site.
Tartanwulver says:
If Neil Patey ever decides to put his musings together as a one man show at the Edinburgh festival, he’s guaranteed at least one ticket sale to me. To maintain such a high standard of comedic writing over such an extended period is to be applauded, and deserves a wider audience.
==========================================================
TW…and they say that CA’s have no sense of humour…?
PS…gonnae get me a ticket as well…oh and another dozen for all my CA pals…they could do with a good laugh!
Guys. Clearly not taking the hint wrt the Keane stuff.
Celtic matter only and OT for here.
@chancer
I think you possibly have some gaps in your memory. I will refresh it over the fabricated comments you made on one of your twitter accounts as Lisbon 67 which involved not only myself but this blog.
As to anyone re-using posts I have published here or anywhere else I have absolutely no problem with that if they aren’t tampered with. You can spend as long as you want on a Rangers twitter site or any other one and set-up as many twitter accounts as you want but don’t drag me into whatever game you are playing by fabricating or misrepresenting my posts and personal position.
ecobhoy
Why the change in tone,you were obviously enthusiastic to get your posts out on twitter,and i stupidly made a couple of daft comments to the land bears for which i apologised for,but your chivalry towards the MP in question is puzzling.
ps; do you keep a record of everything you post,just curious.
chancer67 says:
“ps; do you keep a record of everything you post,just curious”
—————————————
Don’t know about eco but I do, and other posts and:-
http://www.httrack.com/ on an offsite 2TB drive.
I intend telling my grandchildren all about this. 😀 😆
By way of light relief at this time on a Sunday night, I note that the latest ‘Statement of Capital’ of Murray Capital Group Ltd [ yes, I am mildly interested in how failed football club owners are putting bread on the table] shows a figure of £1 000 001.00 .
What a very odd figure, I thought.
Could the £1.00 have some kind of symbolic significance?
As being , perhaps, a Freudian , unconscious expression of repressed guilt for a very dirty deed?
Or, on the contrary, a gleeful reminder of the ease with which a huge burden of debt, piled up by deceitful sporting practices, was got shot of?
Is the self-confessed ‘dupe’ feeling guilty, or does he secretly exult in his success in getting rid of a millstone round his neck by clearing a debt of millions with a single pound coin? -and bugger the consequences for anyone else?
It IS a peculiar ‘global’ figure. It calls to mind a carpet cleaning fluid which was advertised with a jingle which included the words “cleans a big big carpet for less than half-a-crown.” ( although that had 3 fewer zeros!) (Is it still on the market, I wonder?)
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
May 30, 2014 at 7:13 am
“Ticketus are funders of Zebra Finance and have full visibility over accounts.”
——————————————
Zebra have been on the radar for some time but I’m not sure if this is their first association with Octopus.
Interestingly, it might explain an episode in one of Charlotte’s revelations. Ross Bryan of Octopus was chasing RFC for a tranche of season ticket money. I’m not sure if Zebra were in the loop back in 2011 but if they were it would explain how Octopus knew to come looking for their money. It would seem like a logical business relationship for an organisation advancing funds on the basis of season ticket sales to have an interest in a separate company that provides individuals with finance to enable such sales.
I believe on that occasion there was an issue with VAT payment that necessitated some creative invoicing arrangements.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/148997804/Invoice-Chat-1
woodstein says:
June 1, 2014 at 10:55 pm
“Don’t know about eco but I do, and other posts and:-”
——————————————
Fabulous.
I’ve been hunting for Charlotte’s document about the TV deal. I think I’ve checked through everything up to 31 June 2013 with no success so far (it might have slipped the net). I don’t suppose that fancy software of yours can allow you to do a search? ‘TV’ would likely crop up in Charlotte’s preamble tweet or in the name of the document (or ‘TV deal’).
Just think, your Grandkids will get to hear Charles Green’s hollow promise he made to his Grandkids.
Castofthousands says:
June 2, 2014 at 12:10 am
You Have PM
woodstein says:
June 1, 2014 at 10:55 pm
‘..Don’t know about eco but I do, and other posts and:-
http://www.httrack.com/ on an offsite 2TB drive.
I intend telling my grandchildren all about this. 😀 :lol:’
————-
I myself,DO tell my grandchildren all about this! Though I’m not sure that the oldest (four and a half) quite grasps, bright and all as she is, the enormity of the crimes committed variously a football club, by the MSM, and by the Football authorities!. 🙂
Seriously, I think , and I said as much long ago,that RTC and this blog are wonderful fields of research for students of media studies.
I hope RTC is archived and retrievable, and that TSFM will also be permanently on record.
Many of us, I’m sure, have not kept our own running record of the totality of significant, verifiable facts, or reasoned assumptions, about who said and did what and when in the attempt to protect the now dead club, or, which failing, the attempt to foist a fable on us all and, in the process, throw the concept of ‘sporting integrity’ to the wind. Not to mention the even fresher attempt to ‘new-speak’ us all into believing that a lower level of sporting achievement is actually the higher level! Orwell, thou should’st be living at this hour!
It is all there on the blogs, I hope, and one day I will, for my own satisfaction, trace every footstep on the the path from the early corruption of the sporting ideal in the mind of a megalomaniac, through the deficiencies and possible complicity in sporting wrongdoing of people strongly influenced by a megalomaniac, to the wilful and supportive endorsement of that wrongdoing by a silent MSM , silent because they knew which side their succulent lamb was buttered on, and the wicked ( unpunished) attempt by BBC employees to mislead the licence-paying public at every turn.
The whole disgusting episode will be there for posterity , and to the eternal shame of those responsible for what has been Scottish Football’s equivalent of the Qatar world cup scandal.
Castofthousands says:
June 2, 2014 at 12:10 am
‘..Just think, your Grandkids will get to hear Charles Green’s hollow promise he made to his Grandkids.’
————
That’s absolutely brilliant, CoT.Ten out of ten,at least! 😀
John Clark says:
June 2, 2014 at 12:43 am
I hope RTC is archived and retrievable
That is my one regret, RTC disappeared so quickly I never got the chance to “mirror” it. 😥
You win some you lose some. 🙁
PS
I did manage to get Scots Law Thoughts 😆
woodstein says:
June 2, 2014 at 12:58 am
‘ RTC disappeared so quickly I never got the chance to “mirror” it….’
—————
To use an Americanism, me neither.
All I have are the titles of some of the RTC blogs ( e.g. blog 1 (27/03/11): ‘Rangers Tax Issue: bringing light to the darkness’, to blog 97 ( 30/07/12)’ Wrapping it all up’)
And the names of some posters on those blogs! ‘eramacaroonbar’, ‘a bad day for the lap top loyal’, ‘portybelly’, ‘mcguireonfire’…. Auldheid is there ( and still here!) , as is Danish Pastry and many others, of course.
All of them affected enough, as most of us have been, by the progressive revelations of the deceit practiced by SDM’s RFC ,and the appalling extent of the tax debt etc, and the the awareness of the SFA of the truth of the matter,to begin to ask questions about the extent to which the MSM had FAILED to ask questions of our football administrators.
And all of them now part of my mental furniture, counted among those I respect and would be happy to have a drink with.
No matter how little else I might have in common with any particular one of them, we would have a shared concern that all was not,is not, right in Scottish Football, because we cannot trust in the integrity of our Football administrators. Quite simply, they betrayed us. Big time. And have become for many of us what successive Boards of RIFC have become for the thousands of ordinary punters whom they have serially betrayed.
Re the Rangers Tax Case website. I was only an observer on that site but the case presented by RTC seemed rock solid to a layman in tax affairs like myself. Mind you, I have no difficulty understanding the hefty wedge removed from my salary each month! Anyway I digress. RTC had obviously not reckoned that two of the panel would take the view that a loan can be a loan even if it never has to be paid back, despite what appears to be overwhelming evidence that was indeed the case. RTC often opined that should Rangers win the tax case then no-one in the UK ever need pay much in tax again, and should instead follow the Rangers EBT model.
I await the appeal verdict with much interest. Could it still be referred back to another 1st Tier Tribunal, which presumably could be heard in public this time?
Castofthousands says:
June 1, 2014 at 11:41 pm
6 0 Rate This
… I’m not sure if Zebra were in the loop back in 2011 …
——–
Morning CoT, this document (if genuine) mentioning Zebra (and dated 2011 by the email header) was linked to the other day:
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/227090278#fullscreen
John Clark says:
June 1, 2014 at 11:39 pm
19
1
Rate This
“By way of light relief at this time on a Sunday night, I note that the latest ‘Statement of Capital’ of Murray Capital Group Ltd [ yes, I am mildly interested in how failed football club owners are putting bread on the table] shows a figure of £1 000 001.00 .
What a very odd figure, I thought.”
————————————————————————————————————————————
John,
It is obviously a huge coincidence that on 14/11/13 a document was filed at Companies House for Sevco 5088 Ltd to show their statement of capital as £10000001 !
What a very odd figure Indeed !
Quite a lot, if not all, of RTC has been archived
http://web.archive.org/web/20120523105125/http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/20120515000000*/http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com
scottc says:
June 2, 2014 at 8:23 am
2 0 Rate This
http://web.archive.org/web/20120515000000*/http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com
———-
Bravo @scottc, had just been sleuthing around the Wayback Machine myself, there can’t be much RTC from 2011 and 2012 that isn’t there and accessible. Just as well, since someone might want to do a Ph.D on this one day!
scottc says:
June 2, 2014 at 8:23 am
Wonderful, I forgot about the wayback machine 😳 duly archived. 😀
chancer67 says:
June 1, 2014 at 10:31 pm
ecobhoy
Why the change in tone,you were obviously enthusiastic to get your posts out on twitter,and i stupidly made a couple of daft comments to the land bears for which i apologised for,but your chivalry towards the MP in question is puzzling.
ps; do you keep a record of everything you post,just curious.
=============================================
There is no change in tone from me – I always try to remain civil no matter who I am dealing with and no matter how much I might disagree with their position as long as I think they aren’t driven by hatred in which case I know there is no point in wasting time and energy on them.
As to me wanting my posts on Twitter – if that was important to me then I would post there. I suggest you go back and re-read the PMs between us as you requested permission to use my posts. I had no objection but didn’t expect you to try and use TSFM as some kind of debating battlefield between the Land Bears and myself. You seem to have forgotten that you repeatedly said on various twitter sites that I was challenging Land Bears to a debate on TSFM.
But let me assure you that if I chose to use twitter then I am confident that I would not end-up in the scrapes that you do and neither would I provide ammunition for the enemies of Scottish Football.
As to ‘chivalry’ yes I am old enough to know what it is to behave in such a way and, more importantly, I recognise those who are incapable of such common courtesy.
However, I make a point of trying not to name victims of organised sectarian attacks or any other unjustified attack as it quite simply further violates the person. And I don’t use the fact that others have named someone as an excuse.
But your belief that there must be some connection between myself and the politician betrays a conspiracy complex IMO which I note with interest.
Earlier this year a very senior public official was branded as corrupt by the same site you spend so much time on. His crime was that he – in the eyes of the land ‘experts’ – had a Timmy name and someone with the same surname had played for Celtic. He was therefore an ‘enemy’ and had to be destroyed.
So we got the usual demands as to whether he was a Celtic supporter; whether he held a ST; and whether he was a Celtic shareholder. I quite simply refuse to do the dirty work of these cretins by spreading their message of hatred and didn’t name the guy. There was no need to in order to expose their lies which I did.
People can disagree with me – that’s up to them. I know what’s right for me and I will continue taking what I judge to be principled decisions but retaining an open mind for the occasions when things change usually when fresh evidence becomes available.
Fair Dos to SoS
The SoS’s latest questions to Mr Wallace about ST sales and how the books will be balanced go straight to the heart of the matter. Such objective inquiry can only be good for the mental health of the support when the inevitable happens – and bad for the board and spivs before they pull the parachute chord.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/green-fails-in-legal-bid-to-dissolve-rangers-company.24368891
The Herald reporting this morning that Sevco 5088 Ltd continues to live despite Charles Green’s best efforts.
I wonder if the sale proceeds from Murray Park will be used as a ‘go away gift’ to Whyte and Earley?
Green fails in legal bid to dissolve Rangers company
FORMER Ibrox chief executive Charles Green has been thwarted in a bid to dissolve the company at the centre of major dispute over the ownership of Rangers.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/green-fails-in-legal-bid-to-dissolve-rangers-company.24368891
====================================
Looks as though the net is drawing tighter.
Re the possibility of the sale of MP IMHO this is not going to happen anytime soon unless the board have someone lined up (possibly an inside deal) to buy the place.
If it is to be sold to an outside party then first there will be trimming down of operations and redundancies for staff.
The site will need to be maintained to a certain degree so it may as well be used for training until it is time to pack up and go.
As discussed a few weeks back alternative facilities will need to be costed and sourced.
So while savings can be made by running down MP, operations and then its closure, costs will materialize for the alternative training arrangements.
Therefore IMHO it is most likely there will be no income realized in the immediate future and if it is going to an outside party then, given all and sundry know T’Rangers are in need of cash, it will be a buyers market so how much money will be raised?
Wood stein 9.12
Something that struck me from the contents of the Paul McConville link.
It shows just how far apart politics is from the nation’s search for honesty and integrity.
The politicians thought that finding a way to save Rangers was necessary because of the contribution made to the social fabric of the nation.
The social fabric of the nation in the shape of football supporters wanted an honest fabric.
When are politicians going to cotton on to the majority desire for ethics and honesty to be the bywords of civil life?
The accusation that “there are some on here who have become institutionalised and think that they own the site” and then the references to RTC. Very deja vuey….
We ALL own this site, as we did RTC
It’s not Eco, it’s not you, its not me,
It’s the casual and the regular,
It’s the lurkers that are welcome here,
It’s the courteous and the gruff,
Posters of opinions or technical stuff,
It’s the Bhoys, the Bairns, the (occasional) Bears
We all post here because we care
About fitbaw’s future, whether lowlander or teuchter…
Whether Diddy team or the Mighties
Or the strong Red Lichties,
It’s for those that care and for those that dare
To shine a light into fitbaw’s dark places
To cause some red faces
At Hampden, Ibrox, even the Court of Session
The authorities need a lesson,
To understand that the piper is paid by all the fans
Not just purveyors of succulent lamb…
(my debut poem, with apologies to William Topaz McGonagall 😳 )
The guts of the GH story is:
What I’m not clear about is why they have chosen to run with the story just now – it’s old news and they have added nothing that wasn’t known earlier last month.
So someone has fed/promoted the story for a reason. i wonder if it’s another sugar pill to sweeten the sale of MP to save the fans from revolting further.
Perhaps the spivs have realised it might be a bad idea to blame the sale of MP on Bears not buying STs.
One thing’s for sure – there will be a reason for the story being run. I’m not so sure that selling MP would provide enough of a pay-off for CW but who knows perhaps he’s down to his last £1.
upthehoops says:
June 2, 2014 at 7:08 am
——————————————
I’m not in any way legally minded but the judge sitting on the UTT appeal will send the case back to square 1 where there will be a more forensic examination of the charges.
The judge is absolutely aware that HMRC will not be backing down on this. HMRC have so much (taxpayers money) riding on this.
I will be banging on my company’s HR office door demanding I be paid an tax free EBT loan which I need never pay back in place of my current salary should they win their appeal.
jockybhoy says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:19 am
3 0 Rate This
We ALL own this site, as we did RTC ….
(my debut poem, with apologies to William Topaz McGonagall)
————
That wiz a belter JockyBhoy 😎
jockybhoy says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:19 am
=======================
Wonderful and oh so true.
( McGonagall would love it.)
jockybhoy says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:19 am
The accusation that “there are some on here who have become institutionalised and think that they own the site” and then the references to RTC. Very deja vuey….
We ALL own this site, as we did RTC
It’s not Eco, it’s not you, its not me,
==========================================
I could get annoyed that my name gets linked to such a ludicrous suggestion. However I find it faintly amusing – I just can’t figure out what ‘Institution’ would best match my persona.
I have nothing but respect for the vast majority of posters and lurkers on here and welcome the opportunity it provides for me to educate myself and indulge in debate which is important to me and, I believe, also important for Scottish Football and Scotland.
IMO your post could have been just as well made by no specific reference to myself as it actually lends nothing to the very valid point you have made.
However I will be in touch with TSFM asap to ask where the title deeds are and to ensure that my name is on them. And if you think Modding is currently OTT just wait – now that I have real power there will be changes made 😆
Ecobhoy,
I could get annoyed that my name gets linked to such a ludicrous suggestion. However I find it faintly amusing – I just can’t figure out what ‘Institution’ would best match my persona.
======================
Prison Governor ,with a heart of Gold.
woodstein says:
June 2, 2014 at 12:28 am
—————————————-
Thanks Woodstein. Your system certainly works. The info isn’t in a blog friendly format so I’ll have to digest it and perhaps post up a resume later.
Auldheid says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:16 am
When are politicians going to cotton on to the majority desire for ethics and honesty to be the bywords of civil life?
Very difficult to answer, but this comes to mind.
A scorpion asks a frog to carry him over a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stings the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature.
I kept a few of what I thought were significant posts from the RTC blog. Here is one little gem from Barcabhoy in January 2012
Up until just before RFC (IL) went into administration, they used to use a few other facilities as well as MP to train as there wasn’t enough room there for all of the squads (youth teams, under 21s, etc.).
The University of Glasgow hosts a number of SPFL clubs (at one time even Queen of the South who trained in Glasgow most of the time) as do some of the other facilities around Glasgow.
Not sure if you could ever cost MP’s costs through renting it out for training but I think it highly unlikely. Combine this with the proximity of other sports complexes (of which one is stumbling along) and I think that mothballing and eventual property development is perhaps the only future assuming planning permission can ever be obtained.
Morning all.
2 weeks til’ Hearts exit admin?.
The Clumpany @TheClumpany 4m
“Hearts are aiming to exit administration in the next fortnight…” http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/sport/football/hearts-bid-to-rebuild-on-administration-exit.24374669 …
Castofthousands says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:59 am
The info isn’t in a blog friendly format.
This link seems to be working, does this help?
http://tl.gd/n_1rldjec
Danish Pastry says:
June 2, 2014 at 7:28 am
“Morning CoT, this document (if genuine) mentioning Zebra (and dated 2011 by the email header) was linked to the other day:”
————————————–
Good morning Danish.
Now that I see the document it does spur a recollection. There’s been such a blizzard of information that without one of Woodstein’s offshore archive thingies you can’t piece together your own memory. Age is no excuse.
So Octopus/Ticketus will have had ongoing sight of a reasonable portion of Ranger’s ST income. They can probably extrapolate the financed purchases to total purchases. So if Ticketus are still in the mix via CW, they have a built in early warning system concerning the clumpany’s main income stream. Wonder if this might tie in with Ecobhoy’s speculation?
So much to ponder, so little intellect to encapsulate it.
Para Handy says:
June 2, 2014 at 11:10 am
Not sure if you could ever cost MP’s costs through renting it out for training but I think it highly unlikely. Combine this with the proximity of other sports complexes (of which one is stumbling along) and I think that mothballing and eventual property development is perhaps the only future assuming planning permission can ever be obtained.
=================================================
Perhaps planning permission could be assisted if it was shown that the siute had no viable future as a commercial sports centre. But although it’s in a very desirable spot from a development point of view – leaving aside flood risks – it’s not a huge site so the cost of purchase won’t be prohibitive..
So it could be an attractive proposition for a developer to buy and sit on it until planning permission becomes more realisable.
If the developer also has other landbanks within the council area it could get used as part of a land use/swap in connection with permissions for another site. Developers play a long game and it’s hard to know how their various holdings might link to each other in planning terms.
woodstein says:
June 2, 2014 at 11:00
A scorpion asks a frog to carry him over a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stings the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature.
——————————————————————
If the scorpion drowned, how was it able to answer the question?
Re: Sevco5088
RIFC could provide a detailed statement on – exactly – what happened, and when
Clear things up – wouldn’t it
How hard can it be?
😉
I see the Daily Mail are reporting: ‘Rangers say they will confirm the number of season tickets sold soon via an announcement to the AIM stock market”.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2645752/Graham-Wallace-grilled-North-American-based-Rangers-supporters.html
Auldheid says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:16 am
24 1 Rate This
When are politicians going to cotton on to the majority desire for ethics and honesty to be the bywords of civil life?
=================================================
Only when the politicians feel the same way!
Bawsman says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:24 am
I’m not in any way legally minded but the judge sitting on the UTT appeal will send the case back to square 1
I am not sure of this either, but here Paul McConville (RIP) suggests it could go all the way to the Supreme Court circa 2016/2017.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/how-to-appeal-from-the-first-tier-tribunal-tax-to-the-upper-tribunal/
And here Mr Whyte seems to agree?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9080996/Taking-Rangers-into-administration-over-tax-bill-makes-financial-sense-says-chairman-Craig-Whyte.html
“Whyte revealed Rangers face a potential £75 million bill…………….And he feels the determination of HMRC to “appeal, appeal and appeal again” would leave them with no prospect of facing a huge outlay.”
Madbhoy24941 says:
June 2, 2014 at 11:34 am
😀 I thought that too, but assumed there were a few seconds before they drowned. 😯 ❓
Madbhoy24941 says:
June 2, 2014 at 11:34 am
1 0 Rate This
woodstein says:
June 2, 2014 at 11:00
A scorpion asks a frog to carry him over a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stings the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature.
——————————————————————
If the scorpion drowned, how was it able to answer the question?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Maybe the scorpion was lying and it could swim 🙄 🙄