Armageddon? What Armageddon?

ByBig Pink

Armageddon? What Armageddon?

Now that we are at the end of the league season, and with respect to the job still to be done at Tannadice and McDiarmid Park, it seems like a good time for a post holocaust report.

Average Weekly Attendances SPL 2011-2014

Fig 1 Average Weekly Attendances SPL 2011-2014

Peppered around this page are three charts and a table* showing the attendance figures for the SPL in the last three seasons. A school kid could tell you that there is a positive trend in those charts and figures, but the people who run our national sport will look you straight in the eye and tell you “that can’t be right – Armageddon is coming!”

It is one of the most ridiculous and mendacious situations I have ever come across. The people who run our national game, aided and abetted by those in the MSM (sans the eye contact though) are actually trying to persuade us of how awful our game is and how unsustainable it will be in the absence of one, just one, club.

Think about that. The SFA and the SPFL trying to talk us out of supporting the game unless we all recognise the unique importance of one, just one, club. That is what has happened, no matter how they try to spin it. And despite evidence to the contrary contained in these figures, not one of them has admitted to an error, never mind the downright lies that they told to support the position they held, the one where anyone speaking of sporting integrity was mocked and ridiculed.

 

Whilst growing up as football supporter in the 60s, one of things I was constantly bombarded with via the medium of the tabloid newspapers was that football clubs should be grateful for the publicity afforded them via their back pages. These were probably reasonable claims, especially in the light of the relative lack of access to players and officials conceded to the hacks in those days, and the pre-eminent cultural position in which they helped to place football. Alongside that, the broadcast media, particularly Archie Macpherson’s Sportscene and Arthur Montford’s Scotsport could be relied on to talk the game up. Of course, there was something in it for the papers – sales. The more column inches devoted to the national sport, the further northward their sales, and consequently advertising revenues travelled.

ex Celtic & Rangers

Fig 2 Avg. Attendances excl Celtic & Rangers

The situation was further cemented by the fact that the press in that ante-interweb era held a monopoly over the exchange and dissemination of information. That symbiotic, win-win relationship between football and the press was as much a part of football reality as the Hampden Roar. It also endured for decades. The press would talk up the game to such an extent that folk often remarked that they hadn’t realised how much they had enjoyed a particular match until they had read Malky Munro or Hughie Taylor’s report the next day. Archie Macpherson is on record as having said the same thing about legendary commentator David Francey, “It was a much better game to listen to than to see!”

Today that symbiosis is broken. The press themselves, in print and in front of microphones consistently belittle the product, talk of crises and Armageddon, of our own version of the Eisenhower domino effect of clubs going to the wall one after another.

Aided and abetted by the two chief bureaucrats in charge of Scottish football, Stuart Regan and Neil Doncaster, who have consistently helped to hammer home the message that Scottish football is not good enough, and cannot sustain itself financially without Rangers, a club that could not itself sustain itself financially to the extent that it is being liquidated.

At a time when Scottish football was clearly in crisis, and badly in need of sponsorship which could mitigate the effects of that crisis, the press and the authorities sought to strengthen their own negotiating hand by making negative claims about the state of the game which never came to pass, and for which they have never apologised. The actual situation, which would not have been hard to predict had anyone actually bothered to analyse the business of Scottish football, is summarised quite easily by saying this;

  1. Since Rangers’ liquidation and subsequent absence from the top league, the average home attendance of the other clubs has INCREASED overall (See Fig 2).
  2. In this season, the other clubs have added 50,000 fans to home attendances compared to 2011-12 (the last year Rangers were in competition).
  3. In that time the league has been won (twice) by Celtic, and the other honours have been claimed by St, Mirren, Aberdeen, Celtic and (either) Dundee United or St Johnstone.
  4. In that time, both Dunfermline Athletic and Hearts (who both had historical financial problems) entered – and exited – administration after fan-led buyouts.
  5. Dundee United have cleared off their bank debt.
  6. Kilmarnock have restructured their bank debt, freeing the club from a precarious long-term situation.
  7. League reconstruction has allowed some money to trickle down to the second tier clubs in an attempt to mitigate the immediate effects of relegation and to reward ambitious clubs.

table

Looking at the table of attendances above, it is pretty clear that immediately upon Rangers exit, the overall figures took a dip. However there was little difference the in the figures if you leave Rangers out of the equation (Fig 3) – despite Celtic’s attendance taking a hit that year (down by around 5,000 per home match).

Taking Celtic out of the calculations, it is clear that there is a 6,000 uplift in this average (Fig 2).

It is still undeniable that less people overall are watching football (Fig 1), but the trend is upward if one leaves the Ibrox club out of the picture.

Furthermore, this statistic exposes the double edged sword that is retention of home gates. The fact that gates are not shared is predicated upon the notion that the bigger clubs do not depend on the smaller clubs for income. And since the smaller clubs are no longer recipients of big club largesse, their fortunes are not affected, at least not as much as was suggested by the Regans, Doncasters and Traynors of this parish. The “Trickle-Down” theory of Reganomics said otherwise – but clearly and demonstrably it was wrong.

The abandonment of gate sharing has made Scottish football less interdependent than it once was, but the irony is that it works both ways. There is hardly a club in the country that depends on Rangers for their own existence, and here is the news; small clubs are no longer financially dependent on the former Old Firm.

Excluding Celtic

Fig 3 Excluding Celtic

The fact, that is F-A-C-T, is that Scottish Football attendances in the top division are on the increase. The absence of Rangers has made no appreciably negative difference to any other club, far less caused a catastrophe of biblical proportions.

Even if the fools who were the harbingers of our doom were simply guilty of making an honest mistake, it is clear that they are uncontaminated with the slightest notion of how the game in this country operates. The Old Firm may be dead, but the OF prism is still being peered through by Stuart Regan, Neil Doncaster and the vast majority of print journalists. The latter who failed to honour that age-old football/press symbiosis because they believed, erroneously that David Murray’s dinner table was the hand that has fed them for over a century.

The irony is that as job opportunities diminish in the print sector, so too will the fine dining and patronage. I think they call that evolution.

 

Two years ago, in the wake of the fans’ season ticket revolt which saw the new Rangers forced to apply for membership of the league and begin at the bottom, those same MSM hacks taunted fans about putting their money where their mouths were. The fans responded splendidly as our statistics demonstrate, but typically there has been no recognition of this either at Hampden or in the media.

And the message from those fans is this: Scottish football is not dying. Not any more. At least not as surely as it was when David Murray started to choke the life out of it in the late 80s. The supporters are returning in numbers to see a competition untainted by the outrageous liberty-taking and rule-breaking of the last couple of decades, and all but one club has emerged from the mire of the Moonbeam Millennium looking forward to a new era.

If authorities allow the new era to thrive by restoring sporting integrity to the agenda, then the numbers, like the opportunities available to more and more clubs, will grow. The question is … will they?

Admittedly, these figures, like any set of statistics, can be cherry-picked to suit almost any argument that you care to construct. The fact remains though, that whilst it would be fanciful and ridiculously over-optimistic to claim that they bear witness to a burgeoning industry, it is utterly dishonest to conclude that they represent financial Armageddon. Armageddon? Aye right!

* Source ESPN          

About the author

Big Pink administrator

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

2,810 Comments so far

essexbeancounterPosted on5:36 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Castofthousands says:

June 7, 2014 at 3:24 pm
Fisiani says:
June 7, 2014 at 6:58 am

“I can still do that with ease with my right foot. My left is for standing on.”
——————————————-
Even in my later years I was still prone to indulge in such exercises. It is never too late to learn.
StevieBC says:
As it’s quiet…
Absolutely, I can’t believe that any pro footballer would not be 2 footed.
It just takes lots of practice and gives you extra confidence – and options e.g. when taking corners.
==================================================================
Gentlemen…whilst agreeing 1000% with all comments re ability with both feet, and deferring to the (slightly) younger StevieBC, I must ask the question: did anyone ever see the late great Ferenc Puskas ever use his right foot other than for standing on…?
I do believe the old rhetorical question of “what do you use your right foot for”…answered by “…for standing on of course…!” emanated from Puskas’ performance in the game Hungary vs. England at Wembley in 1953 and lasting all the way to Hampden in 1960 at least, against Eintracht Frankfurt.

Or put another way…”…he can only use one foot, but what a foot…!”

Yes it is quiet…!

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essexbeancounterPosted on5:40 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Smugas says:

June 7, 2014 at 4:59 pm

…..The huffy kid then either scores with his weaker foot or picks the perfect pass out of nothing but “huffy spite”….!
=================================================================
Smugas….”huffy spite!…lovely expression!

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StevieBCPosted on6:20 pm - Jun 7, 2014


OK EB – I’ll bite… 🙄

Just how much better a player could Puskas have been – if he could have used both feet? !

Smugas’ comment is very encouraging though for youngsters today.

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rougvielovesthejunglePosted on6:54 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Very quiet today!

Today I’ve been playing a football tournament in Prague with teams of ex pats, Czech’s, Hungarians and Germans.

Between matches, it was amazing how many of the ex pats wanted to know about what was going on in Scotland, particularly Rangers. Naturally I kept them right. It’s amazing how many fitba lovers need a spot of education on the processes of liquidation!

Anyway when I was a bairn, our coaches always got us to do 50 keepy ups with either foot. It didn’t improve your strike but it definitely improved your first touch with your weaker foot.

Left footers are very much in the minority but it’s amazing how many of the best are left footed – Messi, Cruyff, Puskas, Maradona. If you’re a good leftie, you don’t need a right.

Back to the cheap pivo now 😀

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Cygnus X-1Posted on8:59 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Don’t know if this is a wind up or not, but it’s being reported on Twitter that someone called PZJ is appearing on The Politics Show tomorrow to discuss the state aid deals given to Celtic 😆

Think someone on here should give Ecobhoy a wee tug about this 🙂

It could be the best comedy on BBC1 since Blackadder 4

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essexbeancounterPosted on9:00 pm - Jun 7, 2014


StevieBC says:

OK EB – I’ll bite… 🙄

Just how much better a player could Puskas have been – if he could have used both feet? !
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
rougvielovesthejungle says:

Left footers are very much in the minority but it’s amazing how many of the best are left footed – Messi, Cruyff, Puskas, Maradona. If you’re a good leftie, you don’t need a right.
=================================================================
Stevie….I hope you have not bitten off more than you can chew…LOL, but I simply think that Rougvie has had the absolute final, ultimate and insurmountable closing post on this matter…well said that man Rougvie!
PS…I was a reasonably talented left-footer too…modelled myself on Karl-Heinz Schnellinger and Ray Wilson…superb full backs!

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andyPosted on9:12 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Cygnus X-1 says:
June 7, 2014 at 8:59 pm
4 0 Rate This

Don’t know if this is a wind up or not, but it’s being reported on Twitter that someone called PZJ is appearing on The Politics Show tomorrow to discuss the state aid deals given to Celtic 😆

Think someone on here should give Ecobhoy a wee tug about this 🙂

It could be the best comedy on BBC1 since Blackadder 4
_______________
i think it is the politics show on a certain rangers forum not the BBC

http://www.rangerschat.com/forum/topic/PZJ-show.htm#forum/The-Politics-Show-News-0.htm

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Cygnus X-1Posted on9:17 pm - Jun 7, 2014


ANDY says:
June 7, 2014 at 9.12pm

i think it is the politics show on a certain rangers forum not the BBC
_________________________________________________________
Oh what a pity. It would have been priceless had it been on the Beeb, instead it’s just a conversation between a bunch of loonballs 😛

http://www.rangerschat.com/forum/topic/PZJ-show.htm#forum/The-Politics-Show-News-0.htm

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coineanachantaighePosted on9:18 pm - Jun 7, 2014


essexbeancounter says:
June 7, 2014 at 5:36 pm
====================

My personal addition to this topic is that I was never that good as a footballer, getting a lot of early places due to turning up for a team that often had call-offs (and sometimes playing for the opposition when they had call-offs) and getting a game that way. At least I wasn’t so bad they were better with ten men. As a result I played in all sorts of positions, never much good in any of them but often on the left as there weren’t many left footers and wide left meant you were “out of the way” and likely not to damage the team. However I was a trier, could run reasonably fast and worked hard and eventually became reasonably left footed and not bad at the negative side of the game playing full back (right or left) quite often.

So poor players can be two footed – I’m not sure if there’s a moral there. Maybe if there is it is: if you’re as good as Maradona, Messi or Puskas one foot’s all you need but the good but non-miraculous players have no excuse. After all if a poor player like me could be two footed there’s no excuse for the good players, at least the merely good and very good players.

@RLTJ I couldn’t do keepie-ups – my first touch always killed the ball.

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neepheidPosted on9:30 pm - Jun 7, 2014


rougvielovesthejungle says:

Left footers are very much in the minority but it’s amazing how many of the best are left footed – Messi, Cruyff, Puskas, Maradona. If you’re a good leftie, you don’t need a right.
=============
Since we’re all about Scottish football here, I would add Jim Baxter to that list of great left footed (no, not in the West of Scotland sense!) players. The only player I ever saw so comfortable on the ball was Gianni Rivera (who wasn’t left-footed). OK, it wasn’t total football, but just so good to watch. I consider it a privilege to have seen both in their prime, controlling the midfield without breaking sweat. That was real football.

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justshateredPosted on9:38 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Davie Cooper was the best left foot player I ever witnessed.
The Goal he scored in the Glasgow Cup, or was it the old Dryborough Cup, final was a great goal.
Even when witnessed from the opposition end of the park.

Pirlo is not a bad player either but I think he may be right footed.
However any player who has the ability to find a team mate whether it is 2M, 5M, or 20M with a pass is now what football is all about.

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twopandaPosted on10:35 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Scores on the doors – so far;-

• Campbells Money – Uruguay
• SteveBC – England
• ChristyBoy – Italy
• Ryan Gosling – Argentina
• Kicker Conspiracy – Germany
• MCFC – England
• Brenda – Spain
• Redlichtie – Arbroath
• Ianmacant – Chile
• Smartie1947 – Scotland 😉
• Andy – Brazil
• Barcabhoy – Argentina
• Cowanpete – Belgium
• Taratanwulwer – Belgium
• ClusterOne – Mexico
• ParaHandy – Netherlands
• Doonhammer – Portugal
• DanishPastry – England
So
• twopanda – France

& Remember ! – during the world cup – no acrobatics!
– apparently 😉

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CampbellsmoneyPosted on11:12 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Good to see the take up on the World Cup bagsies. Cheers for collating Twopanda. Slightly troubled to see multiple bagsies. That would have caused a rammy in my street.

Now the rules for the game (or investment).

£70 each.
l paid £0.01.

Sorry international game only accepts cash not card payments.

You are investing in the entity (international game) that owns the entity (game) that operates the game.

I am employed by game and will be paid by game (not telling you how much).

Because there are things to do to to organise the game, I have had game enter into long term contracts with services providers to provide these services. Game will pay a lot to these service providers. Some of them are very far away but they are all my mates. Because you are involved in international game (not game) you don’t get to find out about these contracts.

At the earliest it will be January 2016 before game or international game will publish any financial information. That information will be both incomprehensible and disappointing (for you).

By then I will no longer be involved (but my friends will still be).

A new game for Euro 2016 will be promised at that time. Please show your unwavering support for game by reinvesting. If you don’t, there won’t be a game.

So long and thanks for all the cash (I mean fish).

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macfurglyPosted on11:25 pm - Jun 7, 2014


rougvielovesthejungle says:
June 7, 2014 at 6:54 pm ____
Good post. Something at the back of my mind for a long time has “crystallised”.
justshatered says:
June 7, 2014 at 9:38 pm
———
It was so difficult to understand how Davie Cooper kept getting away with it, but so good to watch, even with gritted teeth sometimes.
He remains the exception that proves the rule however, despite Rougvie’s post above.
Being confident with both feet is essential today – and why shouldn’t it be in a game where players are paid to play.
Another rant – players in the SP(F)L who slow their team down in attack because they can only see, or find, one half of the pitch with a pass.
Moravcik, Moravcik…

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AuldheidPosted on11:33 pm - Jun 7, 2014


I was the St Alphonsus Wee Heidies Against the Wa’ school champion of 1956/57

The record of 900 was achieved by heading the then new plastic football called the Frido, which had little pimples all over the surface, against the wall.

For the 2 months after, before I went to The Mungo, I had to answer to the shout.

“Hoi you.
Aye you.
Golf baw heid ”

on account of the dimples left by the pimples.

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macfurglyPosted on11:53 pm - Jun 7, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:
June 7, 2014 at 11:12 pm
———–
Thank you for alerting me to the possibility of multiple “bagsies”. I’m prepared to “invest” with you on Uruguay. Being a late” investor”, and only one at all because of our long standing common cause in Uruguay, I will, of course, invest at £0.01 also, as arranged prior to the offer going public.
I didn’t read the rest of your post, but I’m sure you didn’t tell any bear faced lies.

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DonegaltimPosted on12:07 am - Jun 8, 2014


Auldheid, 900!!!!!!!!!

I would double that with the soaking leather bladder and was only interrupted by getting shouted in for ma dinner.

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John ClarkPosted on12:08 am - Jun 8, 2014


Auldheid says:
June 7, 2014 at 11:33 pm
‘….on account of the dimples left by the pimples.’
———-
I associate that ball,( probably wrongly), with the introduction of ‘bar studs’ ( no, no, not a euphemism, but a description of a kind of football boot stud) which my memory dates to about that year. And Willie Fernie seemed to be somehow associated with their general acceptance in place of the( now laughable) single, individual 3-nailed studs that we patiently hammered into the soles of our boots! What fun that was, especially if you didnae have a ‘last’! And what dangerous weapons those six (I think) half-inch (?) studs were, when raked down the shin!
We must have been nutcases to play , on ash pitches which caused their own damage, with a sodden leather ball ( 26 ounces? more like 5lbs!) with a lace that would take your eye out!
Happy days? More like happy daze if you heided the ba’!

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StevieBCPosted on12:09 am - Jun 8, 2014


Campbellsmoney, unfortunately your commercial venture – being instigated here – could be subject to copyright claimed by TSFM…

As a result you maybe required to enter into an onerous contract with TSFM.

So where do you want the £70 cash dropped off…? 🙄

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essexbeancounterPosted on12:24 am - Jun 8, 2014


Auldheid says:

June 7, 2014 at 11:33 pm
The record of 900 was achieved by heading the then new plastic football called the Frido, which had little pimples all over the surface, against the wall.

===============================================================
Auldheid….Frido….guaranteed to last at least half an hour, before being burst…and yer faither trying to mend it with a hot poker…memories!

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CastofthousandsPosted on12:32 am - Jun 8, 2014


twopanda says:
June 7, 2014 at 10:35 pm

“Scores on the doors – so far;-”
——————————————–
15 teams oot the hat and not one African or Asian candidate among them.

I’ll go for Ghana as they had an away top that looks a bit like Partick Thistle’s.

http://www.uksoccershop.com/products/10890.html

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John ClarkPosted on12:43 am - Jun 8, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:
June 7, 2014 at 11:12 pm
‘..Good to see the take up on the World Cup bagsies…’
———–
I think ‘ Quatar!’
And I demand a re-run of this ‘unannounced beforehand’ and no doubt rigged opporchancity to derive kudos from predicting the World Cup winner!
I am a huge admirer of one of the world’s greatest mathematicians and number crunchers, a certain Miss Rachel, whom any university student under the age of about 110, absolutely idolises for her dazzling brilliance with figures on that quite incredible ‘Countdown’!
And the said Miss Rachel has read the runes, crunched the numbers, done some ‘keepie-uppy’ and suggested that Chile is worth a punt.
But it appears that, like an SFA Scottish Cup draw made less than absolutely honestly [ I don’t know that for a fact, of course, but ‘integrity’ and ‘SFA’ do not compute now, and may never have done, for all that we know! Such is the damage they have inflicted on their credibilty], Chile has been arbitrarily claimed by and awarded to Iamacant, before the rest of us got a chance! Will we see a word about this in the MSM? Ha!

I want it here and now registered that I think Chile will do extraordinarily well. At least reach the semis.Rachel’s analysis can be trusted. 😀

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AuldheidPosted on1:48 am - Jun 8, 2014


Donegal Tim

It was play time!

Thank God.

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AuldheidPosted on1:56 am - Jun 8, 2014


John Clarke

My mate had a pair of them boots with the bar stud. He scored a last minute winner with a toe poke from a perfect through ball (even though I say so myself against Sacred Heart at St Anne’s up near Celtic Park on red blaize as I recall.

Oh how we in our new look black low cut boots from Woolworths mocked him in the dressing room before the game.

Oh how he rejoiced with cries of GIRUYeeeeez.

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peterjungPosted on2:30 am - Jun 8, 2014


In the absence of Scotland from the World Cup I feel the need to find another plucky underdog.

Conveniently my adopted home has just such a candidate. ….

South Korea for me!

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on2:42 am - Jun 8, 2014


twopanda says: June 7, 2014 at 10:35 pm

I’ll “bagsies” Columbia as they have a very talented squad and will be able to cope with playing at full tilt in the hot and humid weather conditions.

Campbellsmoney says: June 7, 2014 at 11:12 pm
😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Another good reason to support Columbia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-27751198

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on3:48 am - Jun 8, 2014


On world cup final day, I shall be in Portugal.
And I will be cheering on england without fear or favour.
2 of my kids were born in England, as was I… to fiercely scots parents.
My kids will be supporting England… like me… and for the same reason I support Caley Thistle.
I have an affinity for the place. We’ve even got my mother suckered in!
It is a home to us (you are allowed more than one).
Had Scotland been in Brazil, we’d have supported them.
Had Scotland played England, we’d have had to split. 3/2 I reckon.
Without rancour.
And whichever team won would have been supported subsequently by whoever lost.
Its not as difficult as people choose to make it.

I used to cheer on Rangers in Europe. (Celtic also… I still do … and will continue to do so.. until Caley are in the mix!) … Until I realised they had cheated sport and taxpayers. Now I regret that support.
And by means of that cheating, they shamed us all but because of their liquidation, they won’t be allowed back into Europe ever again – thankfully.
And if sevco drop the pretendygers mantle and man up to the ‘new club’ reality, I may even support them in Europe in decades to come.
But while they wear their shame like a badge of honour, instead if burying it with dignity, I have no time for them!
They cheated everyone. Including their own fans.
And a club like that belongs dead.

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on5:42 am - Jun 8, 2014


😯 Colombia ❗ 😳

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upthehoopsPosted on7:15 am - Jun 8, 2014


twopanda says:
June 7, 2014 at 10:35 pm
======================
Count me in for Germany. I have always had admiration for the ruthlessly efficient way they have gone about their football. I have also never understood why (in football terms) England class them as a rival. England’s record at major tournaments simply pales into insignificance compared to Germany’s.

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essexbeancounterPosted on7:38 am - Jun 8, 2014


Auldheid says:

June 8, 2014 at 1:56 am
John Clarke

My mate had a pair of them boots with the bar stud. He scored a last minute winner with a toe poke from a perfect through ball (even though I say so myself against Sacred Heart at St Anne’s up near Celtic Park on red blaize as I recall.
====================================================================
Auldheid…you are tugging at the old memories buried deep in the subconscious…and as I further recall, they even had nets…nets…..!
Their team was run by a big guy called Jim Lewis…who ran the Glasgow under 12’s…I know ‘cos he picked me, and he was a SMA former pupil!

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Danish PastryPosted on7:41 am - Jun 8, 2014


Castofthousands says:
June 7, 2014 at 2:59 pm
17 0 Rate This

“Imran / Tommy `chat`”
————————————–
That’s great stuff. I notice Danish has provided a summary so apologies for any repetition
———

Kind of you CoT, but no more than a few bullet points that jumped out at me. Much more in that interview.

* I didn’t know that Tommy had been inside Ibrox chatting to Stockbridge & Imran. And as you say, it did seem that he confirmed that Whyte was in some way strung along. Though admittng that the main income-driving assets were secured shortly after the CVA failed does make BDO’s task seem a waste of time, on the face of it at least.

* Imran surprisingly willing to go on the record, he’s well aware that Tommy puts it ‘all over the internet’. So it certainly suited him to get his side across. It would surprise me if the main characters are not also well acquainted with TSFM.

Many more questions that could be asked of the quite affable Imran. Anyone want to start a list?

PS I didn’t bagsey England, so they are still available (the actual word ‘bagsey’ needs to be used in serious matters of this kind 🙂 ). I lived in England for most of the ’70s but they weren’t really qualifying in those days. Odd that. Yes, the English sports press is usually insufferable during WCs, although well under the radar this time. But the team itself (the players) I’ve always wanted to well. Not hugely interested in this competition — though I will be hoping for as many ‘North Korea 1 Italy 0’ results as possible.

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Cluster OnePosted on7:43 am - Jun 8, 2014


The Mitre…..The only one and true ball.(for young kids at the time)
Don’t get hit on the leg or face but, Nipped like a thousand bee stings

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essexbeancounterPosted on7:46 am - Jun 8, 2014


Resin_lab_dog says:

June 8, 2014 at 3:48 am
On world cup final day, I shall be in Portugal.
And I will be cheering on england without fear or favour.
==================================================================
Resin lab dog…I also rooted for England in 1966…since my schoolboy idol was Bobby Moore, who ultimately became a very close neighbour just prior to his untimely death.
As a teenager in my parents’ front room, surrounded by about 24 men, I was the only one who cheered when England scored, prompting the question towards my father…”…is there something wrong with yer boy…?”
Nowadays, I do not lend them much support since I think they are a bunch of overpaid, overrated numpties, but purely for that reason, not false patriotism or envy even, or similar nonsense.

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Danish PastryPosted on8:09 am - Jun 8, 2014


essexbeancounter says:
June 8, 2014 at 7:46 am
1 0 Rate This
———-

I remember watching that with my older brother, we cheered on England. Hurst’s goal to 4-2 was Roy of the Rovers stuff. Individual English players, managers and (worst of all) TV commentators were outrageously anti-Scottish in those days, but never been a reason to wish their team ill.

Another wee snippet from those days was from my brother. I had invited and him to the recent Scottish Cup Final and he commented on how he was interested to see Celtic Park again. I asked when he was last there and he said it was an international but he also told me that he used to go to Celtic’s European matches in the ‘60s. Otherwise he would go to Ibrox on occasions and take me with him for a lift at the turnstile. Maybe it’s a Dennistoun thing?

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wildwoodPosted on8:39 am - Jun 8, 2014


It’s good to see that the leaked emails regarding corruption in football continuing to be reported widely and investigated / pursued vigorously by the broadsheets, Sky etc. as well as now being picked up by the major sponsors.

Where the agenda suits all of the above of course.

I wonder what the views of Thompson, Spiers, English et al are of the way the FIFA story is unfolding and where parallels could possibly be drawn.

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yourhavingalaughPosted on9:09 am - Jun 8, 2014


As with all competitions ,the men in the middle are who I will be watching,the early rounds will seperate the chaff from the wheat but unfortunately some descisions can affect later games ,lets see more involvement from the additional officials and give us a good World Cup.

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Danish PastryPosted on9:33 am - Jun 8, 2014


A wee tweet from @scotzine

@scotzine: Seems that Dundee United are doing a bit of noising up re. Rangers over compensation fee for Charlie Telfer. 50k for two years.

Should any compensation due to oldco Rangers go to BDO then?

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TSFMPosted on9:52 am - Jun 8, 2014


Folks, I hope we can maintain the same perspective when it comes to England that we do when we are talking about any other group of people – and resist the temptation to generalise. I don’t think the English as a nation are any more or less likely to be odious than any others.
In the culture of this blog, we have a consensus that we don’t attribute virtues/iniquities in a broad-brush fashion.

In my (personal) view patriotism and xenophobia are both the product of lazy thinking. The former is misguided, and the latter reprehensible. Again, in my personal view, I have to say that I am neither proud nor ashamed to be Scottish. I am very proud of many Scots people, and deeply ashamed of others. I am also very proud of the achievements of Nelson Mandela, but not so much Pik Botha – and neither of those is Scottish.

I don’t think that we as a nation are unique or special or better or worse than any other nation, so patriotism is lost on me. Consequently the idea that any other nation can be characterised as flawed is simply erroneous.

That said, I do remember the ’66 World Cup, and my total support for England as a ten-year-old. I always supported England unless they were playing Scotland (or N.Ireland or Wales – my personal wee-man syndrome). Greaves, Charlton, Banks and Moore were all great footballers and I loved them all for that. And there was wee Nobby as well. 🙂 I joined in the celebrations after the final as much as any Englishman did, but by the time 1970 came around, the English media had scunnered me with their own brand of flag-waving and xenophobia.
When I look at the great players who have played for England over the years I would like to have been able to wish them well in competitions, but the media have almost always put that sentiment to bed.

Curiously this time around, I don’t think that the same amount of tub-thumping has gone on in the press, and consequently as things stand, I think I will be wishing them well.

My point is that the media in England are no better than the media we have here in Scotland. If tub-thumping, xenophobic headlines help to sell papers and TV advertising space, proper journalism will take a back seat. I hope our contributors don’t allow themselves to be sucked in by that.

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Para HandyPosted on10:09 am - Jun 8, 2014


Cluster One says:
June 8, 2014 at 7:43 am
4 0 Rate This

The Mitre…..The only one and true ball.(for young kids at the time)
Don’t get hit on the leg or face but, Nipped like a thousand bee stings
————————-
The Moldmaster on a cold, November morning playing on blaize. That’s what missing from Scottish football!

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Danish PastryPosted on10:32 am - Jun 8, 2014


essexbeancounter says:
June 8, 2014 at 12:24 am
13 0 Rate This

Auldheid says:

June 7, 2014 at 11:33 pm
The record of 900 was achieved by heading the then new plastic football called the Frido, which had little pimples all over the surface, against the wall.

===============================================================
Auldheid….Frido….guaranteed to last at least half an hour, before being burst…and yer faither trying to mend it with a hot poker…memories!
———

The sharp overhanging wash house slates did loads of those balls in, as did the rough edges of the bricks on walls separating the tenement backs that had chalked-up goals posts on them.

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neepheidPosted on10:32 am - Jun 8, 2014


TSFM says:
June 8, 2014 at 9:52 am

I don’t think that we as a nation are unique or special or better or worse than any other nation, so patriotism is lost on me. Consequently the idea that any other nation can be characterised as flawed is simply erroneous.
======
I disagree with that on two counts.

Every nation is a product of its own history, geography and circumstances. Every nation is therefore unique. Not necessarily better or worse than any other, but certainly different in various ways.

And every nation can be characterized as flawed. Different nations, different flaws. I could go through what I perceive to be the characteristic flaws of my own bonny Scotland, but I won’t. They do exist, though. To say they don’t just flies in the face of experience. So long as we recognise that we aren’t perfect ourselves, I don’t see why we can’t have a view on the faults (and of course merits) of others. That’s not xenophobia- in my opinion.

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CastofthousandsPosted on10:34 am - Jun 8, 2014


Danish Pastry says:
June 8, 2014 at 7:41 am

“I didn’t know that Tommy had been inside Ibrox chatting to Stockbridge & Imran.”
—————————————-
That was an intriguing passage. It all seemed very affable and far from the cloak and dagger we presume. Something about Stockbridge promising him £20k. Did Tommy set up a wee ruse that allowed him to gain the confidence of these Blue Room inhabitants?

I’m not sure of the efficacy of the asset sale between the failure of the CVA and move into liquidation. It certainly had the hallmark of a set up but the protagonists would argue that £5.5M was the best offer available. I presume the proceeds went into the creditors pot for BDO distribution.

Imran was very forthcoming although I thought his initial reaction upon picking up the phone was of someone who had just dropped a box of eggs. Its difficult to discern his motives but he did show the kind of patience normally exhibited by someone who was keen to get their own version across. Considering he has no continuing involvement with the saga he was extremely generous with his time. I didn’t sense a huge rapport between him and Tommy but perhaps their Blue Room meeting engendered a sense of brotherhood.

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easyJamboPosted on11:22 am - Jun 8, 2014


Here is the Sunday Post article re Dundee Utd’s position on the Telfer compensation payment.

http://www.sundaypost.com/sport/football/dundee-utd-blast-for-rangers-in-tranfer-row-1.410939

“You’ve only got two years of history.”

Dundee United have pushed relations with Rangers to breaking point. They have declared: “You’ve only got two years of history.”

Tannadice chairman Stephen Thompson delivered the incendiary put-down to Light Blues Chief Executive Graham Wallace in negotiations over youngster Charlie Telfer.

Rangers wanted £175,000 to £200,000 in compensation for the development of the player from the age 12 to 18.

But United countered with £50,000, arguing only the time since the 2012 liquidation of the Ibrox club is relevant.

That’s infuriated the Govan outfit, who squashed talks to await the verdict of an independent panel early next season.

I think that this one could go either way. Rangers will probably claim that Telfer’s employment was transferred to the newco under TUPE arrangements, therefore the principle of continuous employment and conditions was maintained. Under TUPE, length of service is maintained when transferring from one employer to another. However I don’t know if TUPE was actually used, given Charles Green’s rantings around the time of the asset purchase.

United have an argument that the Newco has already paid the compensation due to Oldco for Telfer’s early years development when they purchased the assets and the players contracts in 2012, thus they need only pay the last two years.

There is also an argument that United should only pay the Newco for the last two years, but that the payment for previous seasons’ development should go to the Oldco and their creditors.

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N ParkerPosted on11:29 am - Jun 8, 2014


http://www.sundaypost.com/sport/football/dundee-utd-blast-for-rangers-in-tranfer-row-1.410939

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twopandaPosted on11:36 am - Jun 8, 2014


On the `chat` I tried to get or gauge IA language / tone inflexions but very hard to discern given the repeated interruptions spiced with invective, insults, blind partisan and sometimes plain nonsense. IA did mention a few things but I would dismiss the credibility of that source – completely, as untrustworthy, probably crafted, certainly calculated and in end effect had Tommy sounding as an out of control buffoon in comparison.

No point being nice about this – it wasn’t nice – and frankly crap. I posted the link as an example of extreme borderline viewpoints we could do without – embarrassing. Shouting people down in a bellicose tone will have no support from me. And he did ruin Sandaza`s career – gratuitously – with no apology – but demanded apologies. Double standards re-inforced with the 20k gambit – no qualms with lining his pockets if he could – as spivs do.

Except for the reflection that the MSM are not doing their job – it is a pity we have to latch on to such stuff for titbits of information. Wonder if that came from the other `side` so to speak – what the reaction on here would be?

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ecobhoyPosted on11:38 am - Jun 8, 2014


I note some posters on here have suggested I might wish to debate land issues with Celtic-hating sectarian nutters on a Rangers site. For those who don’t like reading long posts then might I refer you to near the end where some interesting points are raised.

My input on the EC State Aid investigation has always been to look at the lies and distortions used to smear Celtic and to investigate them to establish the actual facts on which balanced and objective conclusions might be drawn. I will probably make another couple of posts in the coming days to bring matters up to date. As always I welcome comment especially if it provides verifiable info.

IMO to debate with people who base their total case on hatred and manufactured falsehoods is not productive and I also have no intention of spreading their false message based on bully-boy harassment tactics employed against public officials simply doing their job.

In that regard I will not name nor identify the West of Scotland Housing Association official mentioned in the WSHA COMMITTEE BRIEFING PAPER 20 JANUARY 2014 and simply refer to him as ‘The Official’.

The briefing note was prepared because of the EC’s ‘apparent’ interest in land/property deals between GCC and CFC it and set-out the background of land transaction between WSHA and CFC and the views of ‘The Official’ on that.

Approx 9 years ago WSHA and CFC discussed a land exchange whereby WSHA would obtain land at the Celtic bus park in Camlachie which formed part of the Camlachie Estate and in return Celtic would receive land owned by the WSHA nearer to Celtic Park.

WSHA has been unable to find their report on the discussions but state in their briefing paper of 20/01/2014 that: ‘It is clear, from anecdotal evidence (confirmed by the DV at a recent meeting) that the DV’s office was involved and the Valuer at that time reported that no money should change hands’. In the event the mutually beneficial exchange didn’t take place although WSHA is unsure why not although I think the impending massive regeneration changes in the East End that were being planned could well be a major factor.

When the ‘East End Regeneration Route’ was given the go ahead and both WSHS and CFC had land cumpulsorily purchased from them by GCC to accommodate the new route through Glasgow’s east End which was seen as pivotal to the area’s social and commercial regeneration.

The WSHA land close to Celtic Park wasn’t all compulsorily purchased and a ‘considerably smaller’ piece was left in the ownership of the Housing Association.

After the Regeneration Route was completed some parcels of the previously compulsorily purchased land was surplus to requirement – for the paranoid this isn’t unusual and indeed there is actually a mechanism in place known as the Critchel Down Rules to regulate such situations.

Under the rules the WSHA was offered back its unused compulsorily purchased land by GCC on a first refusal basis although GCC – according to the WSHA Briefing Note – stipulated that WSHA couldn’t subsequently sell-on this land at a profit.

The District Valuer’s Office – at that time – was then asked to value the remaining bus park and the smaller parcel of WSHA land which hadn’t been compulsorily purchased close to Celtic Park.

The Briefing Note states: ‘The particular Valuer involved this time came up with a significant cash settlement figure payable by CFC to WSHA. The figure was in the region of £555,000 and was reported to the Committee at an early stage before a potential deal had been reached with CFC.’

There then follows a very important part of the WSHA Briefing Note whereby doubt is apparently cast on the professional integrity of a District Valuer by ‘The Official’ of WSHA. This has been taken by the so-called self-styled Bear Land ‘Experts’ as meaning the professional in question is ‘partial’ towards Celtic.

Following the £555,000 settlement figure calculated by the DV there followed a drawn-out period of negotiations: ‘During which the DV was struggling to hold negotiations with CFC and their agent/valuer’ according to the Briefing Note.

Trying to read the words contained in what purports to be the WSHA Committee Briefing Paper of 20 January 2014 – without ‘sectarian blinkers’ – it seems to me the wording is ambivalent and my opinion is reinforced by the full wording regarding the revaluation tactics employed by the Valuer in question.

Of course I can only make my conclusions on the words contained in the report and therefore could be completely wrong and it may well be that the Valuer simply didn’t do his job very well. I also have no knowledge of the ‘history’ alluded to by the WSHA ‘The Official’. But it seems strange that a DV allegedly ‘partial’ towards Celtic would have such difficulties agreeing a figure that the club would be happy with. Trying not to be paranoid I have to ask myself that if the DV had ‘a history’ of impartiality/difficulty towards Celtic would this be a better explanation for what was obviously a breakdown/difficulty in communications/negotiations between Celtic and its advisors with the DV over the valuation arrived at?

However the WSHA ‘The Official’ has raised a very serious matter which might touch on criminality/public corruption and if any evidence of this exists then it should be reported to the police for investigation and I don’t care which organisation the professional involved has any alleged partiality towards. On the terms of professionalism however I am at a loss to understand why ‘The Official’ saw fit to discuss such an issue and have it minuted if the police had not previously been informed.

It seems obvious that the document has been ‘leaked’ to cause maximum damage to Celtic. However I believe the Celtic Haters have deliberately misconstrued the plain meaning of the wording to attack Celtic when IMO they may well have scored an own goal.

Until we have a more in-depth explanation of the WSHA position all we have to go on is what WSHA staff and committee members knew or didn’t know about any sub-text in the relevant negotiations or valuations. As I have stated previously they have a duty to disclose to the police anything which might suggest public corruption and so does their parent company. If no such evidence exists then a clear indication of this must be made by WSHA and an explanation issued as to what the following paragraph in the WSHA Committee Briefing Note actually means:

“It was during this time that WSHA worked closely with the DV involved and ‘The Official’ formed the view that there was a ‘history’ between this individual DV and CFC.

“In hindsight I now believe that the DV started high as a negotiating stance hoping to extract the maximum possible from CFC.

“If we had reached agreement at £75,000 and then brought the matter to WSHA’s Management Committee, I believe we would have been pleased that there was a payment to WSHA involved.”

I have struggled to find any way that a DV allegedly with a partiality towards Celtic – according to the sectarian State Aid bigots – would try to get the club to pay £555,000 for a very small plot of land when the owners of that land would apparently have been happy with £75,000. Jeesuz with friends like that who needs Ra People.

Now if the DV had a ‘partiality’ towards another lower-league Glasgow club would it all make sense? Possibly, but as I have already stated, it’s obvious that WSHA really have either apologies/explanations to make or if they actually have any evidence then a report to the police is called for asap.

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TSFMPosted on11:41 am - Jun 8, 2014


neepheid says:

June 8, 2014 at 10:32 am

TSFM says:
June 8, 2014 at 9:52 am

I don’t think that we as a nation are unique or special or better or worse than any other nation, so patriotism is lost on me. Consequently the idea that any other nation can be characterised as flawed is simply erroneous.
======
I disagree with that on two counts.

Every nation is a product of its own history, geography and circumstances. Every nation is therefore unique. Not necessarily better or worse than any other, but certainly different in various ways.
______________________________________________________________________________

Perhaps my point was put across incorrectly – “uniquely blessed” may have been a better description.

I don’t disagree with you at all except inasmuch as the same logic would apply to continents, cities, neighbourhoods, even perhaps streets.

I think that chauvinism exists within all of those structures, and consequently, in my view, nationhood is no more special, but certainly more destructive, than neighbourhood.

I am also very proud of some of my neighbours, and hope against hope that others will flit asap. 🙂

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TSFMPosted on11:51 am - Jun 8, 2014


Re the Sunday Post piece about Telfer and Dundee United, I don’t know the writer personally, but now I know where Danny from the Partridge Family ended up 🙂

Also, it looks as though the Dundee United action might well force the SFA to settle the OCNC argument once and for all.

Question for legal types: Does the TUPE mechanism ( through which I assume Telfer became a TRFC player) make the TRFC case stronger?

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JimBhoyPosted on11:59 am - Jun 8, 2014


@N Parker Thompson might need to have someone check his mail..

I can see his point though as some players were allowed to walk free, how can those business rules apply and not this one…The boy was employed since 12 ’til 2 years ago by a different business from the one he was employed by the past 2 years..If he is valued so highly by AMcC how come he is bringing in players old enough to be his da. Everyone knew the rangers had a chance to start afresh with an exciting 5 yr plan based on youth but they blew it big time and there is no sign of that abaiting..!!!!! 😳

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JimBhoyPosted on12:03 pm - Jun 8, 2014


@TSFM missed your post prior to writing mine… I think the TUPE rules actually emphasises the fact that he was employed the past 2 years by a new entity. I do not think the SFA will have the cajoneys to make a call on it but will leave that to someone else and then sneak in a compromise value of around £100k, their rules will have that vagueness that seems to be the way with them to allow that wiggle room… I hope Thompson appeals it too.

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JimBhoyPosted on12:09 pm - Jun 8, 2014


@ECO — A source close to the WSHA told our reporter last night in an exclusive interview, regarding state aid to Celtic football club “it is a pile of p**h… ”

Those trying to make a story of this are nuttier than the droppings of the squirrels they give home to..

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upthehoopsPosted on12:15 pm - Jun 8, 2014


TSFM says:
June 8, 2014 at 9:52 am

Folks, I hope we can maintain the same perspective when it comes to England that we do when we are talking about any other group of people – and resist the temptation to generalise. I don’t think the English as a nation are any more or less likely to be odious than any others.
===================================

You are absolutely right. I think the generalisation if there is any is aimed towards the English media. In my view they have been pretty subdued for these finals, probably because they realise the limitations of England as much as anyone else.

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upthehoopsPosted on12:24 pm - Jun 8, 2014


TSFM says:
June 8, 2014 at 11:51 am

Re the Sunday Post piece about Telfer and Dundee United, I don’t know the writer personally, but now I know where Danny from the Partridge Family ended up 🙂

Also, it looks as though the Dundee United action might well force the SFA to settle the OCNC argument once and for all.

Question for legal types: Does the TUPE mechanism ( through which I assume Telfer became a TRFC player) make the TRFC case stronger?
===============================================

I don’t buy the Sunday Post but read the article in question at my Mother’s this morning. The writer states Rangers don’t deny liquidation happened but ‘assert’ that the history was an asset that was purchased as part of the sale. The article also states it is likely to be a Judge who will rule on the case. I sense some very creative wording and a payment somewhere in the middle of the two figures.

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JimBhoyPosted on12:25 pm - Jun 8, 2014


I wish the England team all the best. I think this year the media down there actually realise they are probably not good enough to contest a semi final never mind winning the thing.. Good luck to big lurch I hope he gets a chance.

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JimBhoyPosted on12:27 pm - Jun 8, 2014


@Upthehoops Be hard to dent Liquidation IMO albeit how many have stated it was “administration”, aye right..!!!! The gemms a bogey..

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BawsmanPosted on12:47 pm - Jun 8, 2014


Couple of points.
1.”the history was an asset that was purchased as part of the sale, how much was the history valued at? it must have been on the bill of sale?.” I think HMRC are very exercised about companies Pheonix-ing. e.g. could B&M bargains buy Woolworths history for a fee – they’ve bought a lot of their stores?

2. If this player ‘Telfer’ was a bought out asset, did any money go from the current version of ‘the Rangers’ for the lads 6 years (to point of liquidation) career development, to the old clubs creditors?

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on12:49 pm - Jun 8, 2014


easyJambo says:
June 8, 2014 at 11:22 am

10

0

Rate This

Here is the Sunday Post article re Dundee Utd’s position on the Telfer compensation payment.

______________________________________________________

This one is easy to sort out:
Integrity demands:
£50K or thereabouts to Sevco.
£150K to the creditors of RFC(IL)
Anything else shames the game further!

But the SFA will rule : £200K to pretendygers.
Because they are a venal bunch of placemen who are not fit for purpose.

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EKBhoyPosted on12:51 pm - Jun 8, 2014


upthehoops says:
June 8, 2014 at 12:24 pm
1 0 Rate This

Re History.

My understanding is that it is not possible to buy ‘history’ as the organisers of the tournaments / leagues etc actually own the titles which they subsequently award to the winners.

So in the unlikely event that say a major football team acted in a scurrilous manor and won the leagues through tax evasion and / or bribing referees (hypothetically) then the awarding authorities will then remove the titles …… You can’t sell something that’s not yours to sell.

Perhaps the 5-way agreement did indeed transfer the awards to the new club , another kick in the teeth to the taxpayer and the rest if Scottish football. I’d expect a Scottish court to get a great big brush and locate the nearest carpet, the chances of the Arabs winning this are just above zero.

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theredpillPosted on1:01 pm - Jun 8, 2014


Re the Sunday Post I love this bit lol

The scheme protects those who invest heavily in youth development, only to see their best prospects snapped up by bigger clubs.

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twopandaPosted on1:02 pm - Jun 8, 2014


ecobhoy says:
June 8, 2014 at 11:38 am
Sterling Post Eco

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easyJamboPosted on1:08 pm - Jun 8, 2014


From the D&P Creditors report in July 2012 here is how the £5.5M purchase price was broken down.

Receipts and Payments Account – The Rangers Football Club Plc – In Administration

Assets Realisations (£)
Goodwill 1
The SPL Share 1
The SFA Membership 1
Leashold Interests 1
Player Contracts & Registrations 2,749,990
Stock 1
Subsidiary Companies Share Capital 5
Heritable Properties 1,500,000

So TRFC paid almost £2.75M for player contracts and registrations. That suggests to me that the development compensation for Telfer’s and other eligible players early seasons’ development should have been part of that sum, thus Dundee United should only have to pay for the final two years.

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oddjobPosted on1:16 pm - Jun 8, 2014


If it is ruled that TRFC are entitled to full compensation because of the newco purchase of oldco history, will Ticketus have a claim on the season ticket money collected since 2012? I rather think not! I wonder if BDO will have any input when it comes to decision making.

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AllyjamboPosted on1:23 pm - Jun 8, 2014


A point on TUPE, with regards to the Telfer situation. Does TUPE not solely relate to the employee’s rights, bringing his, not the company’s, benefits across to the new company? I thought it was only Charlie who thought it was all about helping spivs 😆

I doubt TRFC will want to push this issue too far, as, to win their case, they would have to show that the club=the company, and vice versa. The development costs were met by the company (well probably remained, in part, at least, in the unpaid debt and we know that didn’t go with whatever Green bought) I suspect it will be a case, again, of TRFC wanting what is ‘rightfully theirs’, while not giving what rightfully belongs to the creditors.

To help the SFA from unnecessary costs, might I suggest they contact BDO for advice on the matter, then tell TRFC to shut up, or prepare to be made to look very, very foolish. In the end DUFC might have to pay the full development fee anyway, but Scottish football will owe them a far greater debt than it costs them, and BDO will have some more funds in the pot to cover their costs.

TRFC might well find themselves between another rock and a hard place – challenge United’s position and risk the OC/NC debate being decided on a point of law, don’t challenge them and we will all know why they didn’t…or, at the very least, strengthen the NC side of the debate.

I wonder if Wallace has factored any anticipated compensation for Telfer into his budget, perhaps affecting the decision to let him go? In the short term, Telfer’s saved wages (relatively small) plus compensation of £175,000+ = the first six month’s cost of signing Kenny Miller, and hopefully up to a successful share issue? Hmm, the ghost of (S)DM still walks the halls of Ibrox – buy now and (if the gamble pays off) pay later.

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redlichtiePosted on1:30 pm - Jun 8, 2014


TwoPanda

Thank you for kindly including Arbroath as my choice for the World Cup. Unfortunately I have had to reconcile myself – not for the first time – to the sad fact that that the Lichties have not qualified. I was particularly hurt when our great team of the late Sixties that included Jimmy Jack and Dennis Bruce also somehow missed out.

Would you kindly enter Brazil as a reasonably adequate substitute, please?

I do however require sight, and signing over, of the “Titulo de Propriedade” for the Maracana….

Scottish Football needs a great World Cup to keep momentum going after a stellar last season.

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on1:34 pm - Jun 8, 2014


easyJambo says: June 8, 2014 at 11:22 am

Is the “value” of Master Telfer’s not a proportion of the figure for Player Registrations of £2,750,000 shown at item 10 of the Notes to the Financial Statement on page 26 of the TRFC Ltd Accounts for the 13 month period ended 30 June 2013?

From your Scribd – http://www.scribd.com/doc/217413725/The-Rangers-Football-Ltd-Accounts-2013

I’ve e-mailed a copy of your original post to a mate who’s an Employment Law Advocate and will post details of any relevant case law that he makes me aware of.

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JimBhoyPosted on1:35 pm - Jun 8, 2014


I don’t really see the relevance of “history” to this business transaction regarding a fee for an employee? How long has he been employed by said company? Times that by some made up number, simples… You’d have thought that his old club would be happy at just seeing the boy go to a better club, a better team in a higher division as a coach myself I would see that as success, job done.. However with rangers desperate times call for desperate measures.

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Paulmac2Posted on1:37 pm - Jun 8, 2014


I’m late to the party….but I bagsie SPAIN!

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on1:38 pm - Jun 8, 2014


easyJambo says: June 8, 2014 at 1:08 pm

Forgot to Refresh before posting and it’s too late to edit or delete my post ❗ 😳 🙄

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TincksPosted on1:42 pm - Jun 8, 2014


Re DUFC and Telfer. My logic circuits re close to frying.

Surely if RIFC/TRFC feel they remain entitled to the benefits of assets from Rangers FC (In liquidation), then surely they remain responsible for the debts?

Oh me oh my. What a tangled web we weave

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JimBhoyPosted on1:43 pm - Jun 8, 2014


Michael James Wallace Ashley is putting out a third strip for a club in the second division of Scottish football. Not much about this in the media for some reason. Personally I find it hilarious. Back the board,sack the board, buy the shirt, buy the alternative shirt…I wonder if there is a man in SA who would have loved to have had the original idea of an alternative shirt… 😆

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upthehoopsPosted on1:47 pm - Jun 8, 2014


EKBhoy says:
June 8, 2014 at 12:51 pm
========================
When the establishment want something to happen it happens. Following liquidation happening they put in place something that allows the current Rangers club to maintain nothing has changed. Completely unprecedented but that’s what they did. It reminds me of when members of the Royal Family get stopped for speeding but never face any charges, because the establishment are clearly of the view you simply can’t charge Royalty with breaking the law. Likewise the establishment clearly believed a completely new Rangers with no history was a step too far. Rather than the watershed moment many of us have wished for, the Charlie Telfer ruling may well be the watershed moment the ‘same club’ brigade desire. After all, years of signing players they couldn’t afford was rubber stamped by the establishment as not being a sporting advantage. Everyone knows that’s utter tosh, but it is there in black and white no matter what we say. If I was Steven Thompson I’d be putting aside a lot more than £50k, because it’s not a fair fight and never has been. After all, when media commentators refer to Rangers as ‘the establishment club’ they surely realise there are benefits that come with that status.

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HirsutePursuitPosted on1:53 pm - Jun 8, 2014


TSFM says:
June 8, 2014 at 11:51 am
1 0 Rate This

Re the Sunday Post piece about Telfer and Dundee United, I don’t know the writer personally, but now I know where Danny from the Partridge Family ended up 🙂

Also, it looks as though the Dundee United action might well force the SFA to settle the OCNC argument once and for all.

Question for legal types: Does the TUPE mechanism ( through which I assume Telfer became a TRFC player) make the TRFC case stronger?
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I’m not sure TUPE is relevant to the SFA’s compensation scheme. I’m not sure, in any case, that the compensation scheme is even legally enforceable; but that is perhaps a different debate.

Firstly – and this defeats any reliance on TUPE in this case – Charlie Telfer didn’t turn 16 until 4th July 2012. The relevant date of transfer was 14th June 2012. He could have had no valid employment contract with Rangers.

Secondly, TUPE is about protecting employee rights when a business is taken over or transferred. The compensation scheme (even if it is found to be legal – which I seriously doubt) has little to do with a player’s terms & conditions.

The compensation scheme is based on registration forms that are usually signed by player under the age of 16. As such, these forms have no relevance to the legislation that protects the terms of a contract of employment they sign as an adult.

Regardless: the players and staff had the right to walk away on the transfer of undertaking. The new club/company had no right to insist on players transferring from the previous Ibrox club.

Of all the players to have refused to TUPE, the only two that (I am led to believe) led to Sevco’s Rangers receiving money, were Rhys McCabe and Stephen Davis. Both were ex-gratia payments from English clubs that simply couldn’t be bothered with the hassle from Mr Green. None of the others – including the three full Scottish internationalists – have resulted in compensation payments.

As far as I know, the new club did not pursue a compensation claim in respect of Jamie Ness who had been registered with the old club since 2007. As, at the time of liquidation, Jamie Ness was under the age of 23, he would fall into the same compensation category as Charlie Telfer.

If TRFC are relying on anything in relation to TUPE it is likely to be:

Effect of relevant transfer on contracts of employment

4. (1) Except where objection is made under paragraph (7), a relevant transfer shall not operate so as to terminate the contract of employment of any person employed by the transferor and assigned to the organised grouping of resources or employees that is subject to the relevant transfer, which would otherwise be terminated by the transfer, but any such contract shall have effect after the transfer as if originally made between the person so employed and the transferee.

(2) Without prejudice to paragraph (1), but subject to paragraph (6), and regulations 8 and 15(9), on the completion of a relevant transfer—

(a)all the transferor’s rights, powers, duties and liabilities under or in connection with any such contract shall be transferred by virtue of this regulation to the transferee; and

(b)any act or omission before the transfer is completed, of or in relation to the transferor in respect of that contract or a person assigned to that organised grouping of resources or employees, shall be deemed to have been an act or omission of or in relation to the transferee.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/246/regulation/4/made

So if you were looking to take out anything from this you might be encouraged to read:
“…any such contract shall have effect after the transfer as if originally made between the person so employed and the transferee.”

However, the key phrase here is the title of Regulation 4: “Effect of relevant transfer on contracts of employment

As the SFA’s compensation scheme has no specific interest in the player’s contract of employment, there appears to me, to be no appropriate application of TUPE.

As Charlie Telfer was under 16 at the time of transfer, the question is moot.

The only question for the SFA to consider, is when the relevant player became registered with the club claiming compensation. Registration, for the purposes of compensation usually starts with Non-Recreation Youth (pro-youth) forms

In Charlie Telfer’s case, it might be:
14th June 2012 – when Sevco Scotland bought the business and assets of the former club.

Or it could be:
13th July 2012 – when Sevco Scotland gained admission to the SFL and therefore automatically became a (registered) member of the SFA

or possibly:
3rd August 2014 – when TRFC (previously Sevco Scotland) became a full member of the SFA and was granted (subject to the 5WA) permission to register a number of the old club’s youth players on professional player forms. From memory, I believe Charlie Telfer was one of those players.

My view is that 13th July 2012 is the first date that players previously registered with Rangers could have been registered with (what was then) Sevco Scotland. Charlie Telfer, at that time, is likely to have been transferred to Sevco on pro-youth (rather than adult) registration; but this form is still relevant for compensation purposes.

That said, it would be interesting to know if there is any paperwork in the SFA vaults that documents the transfer of those player registrations between one club and another. I suspect there is not.

It would be interesting also, if the old club received compensation from Sevco for those young players when they were transferred.

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Danish PastryPosted on1:57 pm - Jun 8, 2014


twopanda says:
June 8, 2014 at 11:36 am
10 0 Rate This

… No point being nice about this – it wasn’t nice – and frankly crap. I posted the link as an example of extreme borderline viewpoints we could do without – embarrassing. Shouting people down in a bellicose tone will have no support from me. And he did ruin Sandaza`s career – gratuitously – with no apology – but demanded apologies. Double standards re-inforced with the 20k gambit – no qualms with lining his pockets if he could – as spivs do …
————

Can’t disagree with any of that, particularly on the Sandaza story. Completely disgraceful. Thought so at the time and have not changed my view on that.

Nevertheless, Mr IAmRangers seems well aware of the power of the blogs and message boards. So why give an hour of his time to Tommy? It was a huge mismatch in styles.

Is IA about to return to the scene? Is he already supplying short-term loans, the like of which saw some initial investors double their money within a year? (£2m in / £4m out, is what one early investor got according to Green).

Or did he just want to talk up his amazing contribution to ‘saving Rangers’ in order to influence the current board with reference to his court case?

All very odd.

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Matty RothPosted on2:03 pm - Jun 8, 2014


World Cup bagsies…

Wow. Some serious glory hunting becoming evident? 😀

If they are still to be chosen, i’ll place my support in Cameroon. Could be fun.

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on2:04 pm - Jun 8, 2014


On the Sunday Post article itself, comments such as the following are reprehensible in their content and inherent “blue” bias “churnalism”of RFC Ltd /RIFC plc PR huff and puff piece.

“Yet if the failure to hold onto the midfielder irked some Rangers fans, it should be nothing to the reaction to news of United’s inflammatory stance in subsequent compensation talks.”

“Dundee United have pushed relations with Rangers to breaking point. They have declared: “You’ve only got two years of history.”

“Tannadice chairman Stephen Thompson delivered the incendiary put-down to Light Blues Chief Executive Graham Wallace in negotiations over youngster Charlie Telfer.”

“That stance has infuriated the club and will provoke a similar reaction from the Light Blues support.”

I hope that Danny Stewart and his editor are held to account by Police Scotland if their article’s inherant tone of incitement should any illegal acts be threatened or carried out against Stephen Thompson or Dundee United FC for their perfectly reasonable interpretation of employee contract law.

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