Now that we are at the end of the league season, and with respect to the job still to be done at Tannadice and McDiarmid Park, it seems like a good time for a post holocaust report.
Fig 1 Average Weekly Attendances SPL 2011-2014
Peppered around this page are three charts and a table* showing the attendance figures for the SPL in the last three seasons. A school kid could tell you that there is a positive trend in those charts and figures, but the people who run our national sport will look you straight in the eye and tell you “that can’t be right – Armageddon is coming!”
It is one of the most ridiculous and mendacious situations I have ever come across. The people who run our national game, aided and abetted by those in the MSM (sans the eye contact though) are actually trying to persuade us of how awful our game is and how unsustainable it will be in the absence of one, just one, club.
Think about that. The SFA and the SPFL trying to talk us out of supporting the game unless we all recognise the unique importance of one, just one, club. That is what has happened, no matter how they try to spin it. And despite evidence to the contrary contained in these figures, not one of them has admitted to an error, never mind the downright lies that they told to support the position they held, the one where anyone speaking of sporting integrity was mocked and ridiculed.
Whilst growing up as football supporter in the 60s, one of things I was constantly bombarded with via the medium of the tabloid newspapers was that football clubs should be grateful for the publicity afforded them via their back pages. These were probably reasonable claims, especially in the light of the relative lack of access to players and officials conceded to the hacks in those days, and the pre-eminent cultural position in which they helped to place football. Alongside that, the broadcast media, particularly Archie Macpherson’s Sportscene and Arthur Montford’s Scotsport could be relied on to talk the game up. Of course, there was something in it for the papers – sales. The more column inches devoted to the national sport, the further northward their sales, and consequently advertising revenues travelled.
Fig 2 Avg. Attendances excl Celtic & Rangers
The situation was further cemented by the fact that the press in that ante-interweb era held a monopoly over the exchange and dissemination of information. That symbiotic, win-win relationship between football and the press was as much a part of football reality as the Hampden Roar. It also endured for decades. The press would talk up the game to such an extent that folk often remarked that they hadn’t realised how much they had enjoyed a particular match until they had read Malky Munro or Hughie Taylor’s report the next day. Archie Macpherson is on record as having said the same thing about legendary commentator David Francey, “It was a much better game to listen to than to see!”
Today that symbiosis is broken. The press themselves, in print and in front of microphones consistently belittle the product, talk of crises and Armageddon, of our own version of the Eisenhower domino effect of clubs going to the wall one after another.
Aided and abetted by the two chief bureaucrats in charge of Scottish football, Stuart Regan and Neil Doncaster, who have consistently helped to hammer home the message that Scottish football is not good enough, and cannot sustain itself financially without Rangers, a club that could not itself sustain itself financially to the extent that it is being liquidated.
At a time when Scottish football was clearly in crisis, and badly in need of sponsorship which could mitigate the effects of that crisis, the press and the authorities sought to strengthen their own negotiating hand by making negative claims about the state of the game which never came to pass, and for which they have never apologised. The actual situation, which would not have been hard to predict had anyone actually bothered to analyse the business of Scottish football, is summarised quite easily by saying this;
- Since Rangers’ liquidation and subsequent absence from the top league, the average home attendance of the other clubs has INCREASED overall (See Fig 2).
- In this season, the other clubs have added 50,000 fans to home attendances compared to 2011-12 (the last year Rangers were in competition).
- In that time the league has been won (twice) by Celtic, and the other honours have been claimed by St, Mirren, Aberdeen, Celtic and (either) Dundee United or St Johnstone.
- In that time, both Dunfermline Athletic and Hearts (who both had historical financial problems) entered – and exited – administration after fan-led buyouts.
- Dundee United have cleared off their bank debt.
- Kilmarnock have restructured their bank debt, freeing the club from a precarious long-term situation.
- League reconstruction has allowed some money to trickle down to the second tier clubs in an attempt to mitigate the immediate effects of relegation and to reward ambitious clubs.
Looking at the table of attendances above, it is pretty clear that immediately upon Rangers exit, the overall figures took a dip. However there was little difference the in the figures if you leave Rangers out of the equation (Fig 3) – despite Celtic’s attendance taking a hit that year (down by around 5,000 per home match).
Taking Celtic out of the calculations, it is clear that there is a 6,000 uplift in this average (Fig 2).
It is still undeniable that less people overall are watching football (Fig 1), but the trend is upward if one leaves the Ibrox club out of the picture.
Furthermore, this statistic exposes the double edged sword that is retention of home gates. The fact that gates are not shared is predicated upon the notion that the bigger clubs do not depend on the smaller clubs for income. And since the smaller clubs are no longer recipients of big club largesse, their fortunes are not affected, at least not as much as was suggested by the Regans, Doncasters and Traynors of this parish. The “Trickle-Down” theory of Reganomics said otherwise – but clearly and demonstrably it was wrong.
The abandonment of gate sharing has made Scottish football less interdependent than it once was, but the irony is that it works both ways. There is hardly a club in the country that depends on Rangers for their own existence, and here is the news; small clubs are no longer financially dependent on the former Old Firm.
Fig 3 Excluding Celtic
The fact, that is F-A-C-T, is that Scottish Football attendances in the top division are on the increase. The absence of Rangers has made no appreciably negative difference to any other club, far less caused a catastrophe of biblical proportions.
Even if the fools who were the harbingers of our doom were simply guilty of making an honest mistake, it is clear that they are uncontaminated with the slightest notion of how the game in this country operates. The Old Firm may be dead, but the OF prism is still being peered through by Stuart Regan, Neil Doncaster and the vast majority of print journalists. The latter who failed to honour that age-old football/press symbiosis because they believed, erroneously that David Murray’s dinner table was the hand that has fed them for over a century.
The irony is that as job opportunities diminish in the print sector, so too will the fine dining and patronage. I think they call that evolution.
Two years ago, in the wake of the fans’ season ticket revolt which saw the new Rangers forced to apply for membership of the league and begin at the bottom, those same MSM hacks taunted fans about putting their money where their mouths were. The fans responded splendidly as our statistics demonstrate, but typically there has been no recognition of this either at Hampden or in the media.
And the message from those fans is this: Scottish football is not dying. Not any more. At least not as surely as it was when David Murray started to choke the life out of it in the late 80s. The supporters are returning in numbers to see a competition untainted by the outrageous liberty-taking and rule-breaking of the last couple of decades, and all but one club has emerged from the mire of the Moonbeam Millennium looking forward to a new era.
If authorities allow the new era to thrive by restoring sporting integrity to the agenda, then the numbers, like the opportunities available to more and more clubs, will grow. The question is … will they?
Admittedly, these figures, like any set of statistics, can be cherry-picked to suit almost any argument that you care to construct. The fact remains though, that whilst it would be fanciful and ridiculously over-optimistic to claim that they bear witness to a burgeoning industry, it is utterly dishonest to conclude that they represent financial Armageddon. Armageddon? Aye right!
Campbellsmoney says:
May 16, 2014 at 5:14 pm
Apologies if this is somewhat rambling but at the moment, it’s the best I can do.
========================================
No apologies required. You have turned my incoherent ramblings to myself into something approaching sensible – well at least to me.
Obviously it would be interesting to know which kind of agreements don’t require to be registered and I wonder if debentures fall into that category and if they don’t require registration do they have to be recognised in the accounts?
I will go on another flight of fancy back to Sevco 5088 and the orginal small group of investors who raised the cash to buy Rangers from D&P. We know the switcheroo took place although we don’t know how this would have affected things.
What we do know – although it may not be fact – is that the TRFCL minute of 31 October 2012 states that the original investors had stipulated that Sevco 5088 should be the acquiring vehicle. However days before the acquisition it is reported in the minute that these investors verbally agreed to the acquiring vehicle to be switched to Sevco Scotland.
Now we know that the likes of Blue Pitch and Margarita were about then and it has been suggested that Margarita hold one of the contracts currently under discussion. For sake of argument let’s accept that the controversial contracts are all held by this group of original investors.
So let’s go back to Sevco 5088 and the money gathered by the original investors. What security did they have over the what was it £5/6 million they raised. Somehow I feel that they would want real security for their dosh and there was rumblings of it being a property-backed debenture although no actual hard evidence.
What we do know is that the money possibly moved to Sevco Scotland (although it may well have been paid from Sevco 5088’s bank account to D&P but I just don’t know). Then Sevco Scotland changed its name to TRFCL and the shareholders of TRFCL (who had by then grown to more than the original Sevco 5088 investors) each received a RIFC share in exchange for each TRFCL share they held.
What I am wondering is whether there is almost an irrevocable mandate type of thing which followed all the way through from Sevco 5088 to RIFC for those few original shareholders. They don’t become a different class of shareholders as that isn’t borne out by the flotation docs.
But could a debenture or some other agreement have survived from May 2012 to December 2012 and beyond for 20 years possibly?
I have never ever doubted that the answers to this whole circus lies with Sevco 5088. Maybe CW doesn’t have any claim to the title deeds – pehaps he just has the knolwedge that could unlock a can of worms but it’s possible that to do so reveals issues that he might not want made public except in a MAD scenario.
I may be talking nonsense and seeing shadows where they don’t exist but having read Campbellsmoney piece I am convinced these contracts are based on something real and if I was an original investor in a risky gamble as rangers was and still is then I would ensure my money was safe.
If I am anywhere near the truth in my wonderings/haverings then I wonder how the institutional investors will feel about the property if it is effectively tied-up or at least a significant portion of it is. Of course it might not be Ibrox – It could be MP which in some ways would make sense and be the kind of thing that CG might have done to hedge his bets.
It may not be particularly sportsmanlike to ‘play the man instead of the ball’ but this is a dirty game at the moment. The Conflicted One may be a symptom rather than a cause but perhaps some remedy can be made by stifling this particular ailment. I would not consider it particularly untoward if the gifted and skilled TSFM centre back administered a subtle and mild impediment should he attempt to latch onto a pass into FIFA/UEFA. If nothing else it might illustrate to the footballing authorities (cooee 😉 ), that they are in a game.
Mechanics aside, CO’s re-election was over before we knew it had begun. Perhaps all were powerless to do anything but we didn’t even get a chance to find that out. Perhaps Auldheid could appraise himself and us (put it on your ‘to do’ list Auldheid) of any sequence of events that might indicate CO was being made ready for enthronement in the upper echelons. If nothing else we could e:mail blizzard the organisation concerned to make our feelings known. Whether it makes a difference is secondary to the notion that it would be the right thing to do.
I have it on good authority that your assessment is well merited.
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
May 16, 2014 at 6:24 pm
Laxey and most of the post IPO chaps want Admin.
The Pre-Admin fellows aren’t keen.
==================================
Phil – do you mean Pre-Admin or should that be pre-IPO. It obviously makes a difference in terms of not only personalities but in terms of how far back the plans were laid or the plot hatched 🙄
Have a wee look at my post above which may be nonsense but may have some grains of truth in it.
Lots of comments that Scottish football is doing great at the moment. I’m not sure that’s true. Is it not more the case that Scottish football is still in the ICU but isn’t quite as critical.
PMGB revealed that GW was gaming out the minimum number of fans needed to keep Rangers going in any circumstances, even if they were unable to gain promotion to the Premiership on an ongoing basis. In Scotland this is the easiest thing in the world to do. Prior to Ranger’s death, there were only two clubs in the country not operating in this mode.
In reality the top flight had only four games a year and the level of interest in any other game was woeful. Scottish football had been economically bullied into irrelevance.
Just as the old firm played on their “heritage” to dominate Scottish football in the twentieth century, they used economics at the start of the twenty first.
The decline of the old firm’s dominance happens as Scotland modernised. They still retained an advantage but not enough to prevent other clubs from competing and becoming successful.
Rangers are in a similar situation now with their economic advantages gone and there is suddenly renewed interest in the Scottish game.
What I can’t understand is the idea that Celtic aren’t strangling the game in exactly the same way. Imagine if Motherwell and Aberdeen had been playing for the top spot last week. What a league we would have had – and that is with all the ridiculous constraints that the old firm have placed on the league for their own benefit.
I think that Scottish football would have a renaissance if Celtic were to have a similar insolvency event, or walked away to another league, hopefully taking Rangers with them.
It might take 5-10 years for the effect to hit. Playing top English clubs week in week out would draw full houses and lots of attention for a long time, but as it became normal, the glory hunters would melt away as losing became regular and mid table mediocrity became the norm, or even something to aspire to.
Meanwhile after they’d finished crying into their beer, the blazers would have no reason not to actually run Scottish football for the benefit of its clubs.
A top division of 18 or 20? Great!! None of this four (or more) games a season rubbish that every other aspect of the game appears less important than at the moment.
A more fair distribution of revenue? Fantastic!! The Armageddonists claim TV revenue without an OF game. Many Celtic supporters perform mental gymnastics to convince themselves that a lack of Rangers shouldn’t affect the TV deal, but no Celtic would be Armageddon on steroids. In reality, without either, the prize for finishing top wouldn’t be much different from the current third place money. That’s before the league regains the interest that the OF surgically removed from it and people began wanting to watch it.
Teams going on undefeated runs of more than five or six games? Great!! Teams can build momentum and their players can grow and get the winning habit without having to travel to Glasgow next game knowing they have to be two goals better to get a draw (apologies to Partick, who don’t benefit from such honest mistakes).
The OF’s blatant tapping up of players would dry up too. To start with, the gap would be to big to make tapping Scottish players worth the bother. After the standard in Scotland improved, everyone would expect proper money given the OF now had access to it.
Attendances in Scotland would rocket too. The reality which OF supporters tend to deny is that their clubs make supporters of other clubs not want to go to our own home games against them. We expect to lose, even if we play well enough to deserve something. We expect to hear songs that we don’t want to have to explain to our kids. We expect to live in fear that if we can compete, our better players will be tapped up and poached for much less than they are worth and we expect our league ambitions to be over within three weeks or less.
I also don’t believe the baseline gap between either if the OF and other clubs is as big as regularly claimed. It’s still big, but not actually big enough that you could expect to have Ally or John Barnes as a manager and still finish second by miles.
Celtic can’t regularly fill their ground now while they’re winning. Imagine if they were getting humped regularly and struggling in mid table. That wouldn’t be too far from the level of support all other teams now have, but when discussing how successful Celtic is as a business, it’s always 63k compared to the 8-10k or less that other clubs currently muster. In reality it’s probably a 2:1 ratio or close to it. I bet the next OF match is sold out though in any circumstances.
Anyway, the point is I’m sick of hearing how much Scottish football needs either of the Old Firm. For me the phrase still exists because the constraints on other clubs imposed by its existence still exist. Rangers have been proven to have been taking much more out of the game than they ever put in. The reality is Celtic do too. The playing field isn’t fair because it’s been stacked before a ball is kicked and it’s been slowly killing the game since the early 80s.
It’s condescending to blame everything on David Murray too. Yes he was at it. Yes his influence was catastrophic. But in the same way I don’t believe watching violent movies makes me violent, I don’t believe his excesses forced any other clubs to follow suit. Making him a scapegoat because lots of other clubs followed his lead, makes this website seem less analytical that it usually is and also draws attention from all Murray’s actual improper activities.
Okay rant over. Just please don’t accept the state of Scottish football as is because it’s gone from terrible to not bad. There’s still so much to do.
ecobhoy says:
May 16, 2014 at 7:39 pm
The big divide in RIFC -generally speaking- is Pre-IPO/Post-IPO.
The folks who were in on the Penny Shares with Charlie have a different view to the chaps who purchased shares at 70p.
Laxey Partners and most of the Institutional Investors see the need for a controlled Admin to cut costs.
Blue Pitch & Margarita Holdings are in the opposing camp.
Hargreave Hale (Inst Inv) are also in this camp-and there is an interesting story to tell on that one day…
The Easdales are kind of in the middle.
In a pure speculation mood 😉
So – A Pie Stall is leased from the Parent Company for – say – 80m over a 20 years lease
Say – sells 50,000 pies per year
Either a Pie costs punters £81 quid each [£1 for the Pie – £80 for the lease]
Or that `Pitch` costs 4m a year to the pie eating company
And nobody knew about it?
Except a few – who didn`t need legal oversight – The `few`?
Was that before the IPO?
But still – it`s not in the accounts published for ordinary shareholders
Or perhaps that the lease can be automatically revalued every 5 years and renewed
Of course that could never happen – as nobody’s that stupid and the Law wouldn’t allow it.
Blimey 😉
Castofthousands says:
May 16, 2014 at 7:24 pm
Please feel free to take whatever action you feel is justified wrt CO.
As to him being ready for enthronement Wikipedia clearly not only shows the steps in the process but reveals the ‘buggins turn’ that operates at the SFA. It is an organisation that is well past its useful life and needs a root and branch restructure carried out by fresh blood.
I truly doubt if there is anyone in Scottish Football who thinks otherwise. As to Ogilvie I see him as a rather pathetic figure and IMO think his failings have largely contributed to the state that the SFA has ended-up in.
I firmly believe he should have stepped-down for the good of the SFA when he became the story and even if there was no other blemishes in his background that should have been enough to ensure he did the honourable thing in my book.
Wikipedia:
SFA:
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
May 16, 2014 at 7:51 pm
Frankly Phil the teasing has to stop.
The whole story needs to be told now or at least very soon.
The fiasco has gone on long enough.
Scottish football deserves more than a further close season of uncertainty.
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
May 16, 2014 at 7:51 pm
ecobhoy says:
May 16, 2014 at 7:39 pm
Hargreave Hale (Inst Inv) are also in this camp-and there is an interesting story to tell on that one day…
Look forward to that story but for those who want a laugh in the meantime it’s worth a look at what Mr Hargreave himself has to say – I think he must be related to Patey btw 😆 :
http://www.trustnet.com/News/394239/hargreave-why-im-investing-in-rangers-football-club/
Not so sure about Easdales being in the middle though when they hold the proxies for the original investors like Blue Pitch and Margarita. Mibbe one brother is in each camp kind of like in times of yore when the elder brother supported the King and the younger the one who would be King so that no matter the result the lands remained within the family.
wottpi says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:03 pm
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
May 16, 2014 at 7:51 pm
Frankly Phil the teasing has to stop.
The whole story needs to be told now or at least very soon.
The fiasco has gone on long enough.
Scottish football deserves more than a further close season of uncertainty.
=========================
I have no need to defend Phil as he can do that well enough himself.
But often sources dictate the timetable of information release – often it’s to their advantage but I’m afraid that’s the name of the game. The trick is to know what they are up to so as not to be used merely as a tool but from what I have seen of Phil in action I have no worries on that score.
Ecobhoy says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:18 pm
Wholly agree but equally there is also a time were the story will pass you by.
I have no doubt Phil is fully aware of that.
I reiterate that given the whole cluster feck IMHO fully clarity is required long before the start of next season.
wottpi says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:03 pm
You say “teasing” I say “source protection”.
I publish what I can when I can.
If you read Downfall you will see what I mean.
Unbreakable or not there are some aspects of the “onerous” contracts that we can intuit.
If these involved services that were previously (ie pre admin/liquidation) “in house” it’s a fair bet that we’d have had some detail before – staff having to Tupe across?
Also there are some functions that have been linked to outsourced contracts (imo the obvious ones) such as catering (Phil has suggested a link to Margarita) and Security (Garrion) – in both instances linked to CG?
The only other areas that you might expect to be outsourced and that might have been outsourced at pre admin/liquidation Rangers are Facilities Management (imo a source of rip off deals at the best of times) and possibly some areas of IT?
These contracts would have to be spectacularly one-sided for them to impact on short term liquidity but might be a drag on long term income streams.
Some might call it ‘onerous’, some may call it ‘Karma’. 😉
I am aware that the Home Nations have gained certain privileges at FIFA/UEFA for historical reasons and that one particular vacancy is due to arise.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/sfa-president-campbell-ogilvie-weighs-up-standing-for-election-as-fifa-vice-president.24054273
Auldheid has for some time taken a keen interest in the regulatory elements of TSFM discussions and whilst not having any responsibility in this respect, I had hoped to pique his interest in the possibility of triggering an e:mail campaign that might be cathartic for the blog and perhaps even good for the governance of the game. Perhaps it is a sign of my own laziness that I do not pursue this specifically myself but equally it is motivated by an expectation that Auldheid may have accrued some information sources that might be particularly useful in flagging up such events.
As you say, this is a team effort. I may occasionally lob a ball into hopeful space only to find there is no-one to run onto it but on other occasions my intentions may be anticipated and result in an opening for a point of attack.
Full clarity is required
• Very –very little from the PR directed MSM – and zilch to the core of it
• `Sanitised` PR from `independent investigations`
• Silence from the SFA
• Nothing from the Police
• Studied inaction by other Authorities
Phil’s doing a great job!
In today’s Times quick crossword:
19 down – Rangers FC Stadium (5)
Since the Times welcomes correspondence from readers who feel any crossword clue might contain an error, where should I start?
wottpi says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:28 pm
Ecobhoy says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:18 pm
I reiterate that given the whole cluster feck IMHO fully clarity is required long before the start of next season.
===================================
That might well be the case but I doubt if the spivs at Ibrox give a flying fandance about the start of the football season. This charade could last a few years yet depending on how things pan-out so to speak 😆
The problems with sources is not just the issue of their motive but also the fact that they often don’t have a complete overview of the situation so you can end-up with a lop-sided one.
And then depending how close they are to the action there is the time element but in a fast moving situation like this obviously is a source can correctly pass on info that was accurate when they got it but it may have altered since withougt their knowledge.
And then there is the clever and valuable source who is at the centre of the action and knows everything. He/she is the one most likely to be caught-out so they will often insert rubbish into the info leaked so as to protect their own anonymity.
And a source can dry-up if pressured – they often already are stressed to some degree and extra pressure can just see them decide to call it a day. A lot depends on their motivation for leaking.
And a journo has to sift and weigh the info a source provides and possibly go back and query things that don’t ring true.
So it can be quite a tortuous process and not as simple as Deepthroat in the film 😉
Cannot verify if the information in these tweets (read from bottom up) is correct. If so it shows how far the SFA are assisting one club to the determent of others.
CelticResearch @CelticResearch 10m
That dear Scottish football fans amounted to another £200k+ subsidy of the Rangers brand which had to be promoted in the “games interests.”
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CelticResearch @CelticResearch 12m
The SPL then agreed to pay ESPN (then BT) an amount per viewer if there total audience for the season fell short of their modest target.
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CelticResearch @CelticResearch 14m
There was even more SPL generosity offered towards making sure that the the Sevco brand was given publicity in the form of viewer subsidy.
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CelticResearch @CelticResearch 28m
That was ditched immediately because of info given to the SPL executive. We then went cap in hand to the broadcasters giving away our game.
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CelticResearch @CelticResearch 30m
At the time of the Rangers admin, dissatisfaction with TV deals meant the SPL were well down the road of producing their own content
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CelticResearch @CelticResearch 36m
In Doncaster’s eyes, the Rangers brand had to be saved above all else and giving the broadcasters sweeteners was part of that. There’s more.
PTD
The greatest cause of the imbalance in income that makes the gap nigh unbridgeable is CL money.
It was the pursuit of such and associated glory that made SDM run up the defecit that put Rangers in trouble and then take the gamble he did in 2008 to get out of debt by chasing more CL income when he should have taken steps to deal with the contingent liability of the big tax case. His use of EBTs was again given the incentive of CL money to winners to make the risk worth taking.
TV money is insufficient to create an unbridgeable gap in Scotland so if you are looking for a cause and a remedy look to UEFA.
It’s not Celtic ‘s fault the rewards for CL success are what they are and a bit rich that UEFA might stand in the way of a lazy escape solution.
The only good thing to come out of this is that the damage being done smaller nations is now so self evident the argument for change will be easier to make.
When we get right down to it the only folk benefiting from the current arrangement are players,agents,football administrators and succulent lamb munchers.
Those turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas.
Tincks says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:44 pm
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In today’s Times quick crossword:
19 down – Rangers FC Stadium (5)
Since the Times welcomes correspondence from readers who feel any crossword clue might contain an error, where should I start?
________________________________________________
does WHYTE fit?
Tincks says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:44 pm
In today’s Times quick crossword:
19 down – Rangers FC Stadium (5)
==============================
Hades ?
twopanda says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:43 pm
Thanks
ecobhoy says:
May 16, 2014 at 1:10 pm
Would I like to see CO held accountable for any transgessions that he may be party to?
It was not me, I was not there and i have an alibi 😀
Shyster Flywheel Shyster says:
May 16, 2014 at 2:17 pm
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MoreCelticParanoia says:
May 16, 2014 at 2:02 pm
This perhaps explains the 20 year timeframe, the contracts are in practical terms ‘unbreakable’ because the cost of buying them out – to compensate for 20 years of lost revenue – is unaffordable. Therefore not legally ‘unbreakable’ but in practical terms they are.
—————————————————————————————————
A contract is an agreement between two (or more) parties. A contract can be broken at any time by either party but as you rightly point, one party having to compensate the other party for 20 years of loss becomes too onerous.
As Doc Daneeka replied to Yossarian concerning Catch 22 “It’s the best there is,”
Flywheel
___________________________________________________________________
Shyster Flywheel Shyster says:
May 16, 2014 at 2:17 pm
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MoreCelticParanoia says:
May 16, 2014 at 2:02 pm
This perhaps explains the 20 year timeframe, the contracts are in practical terms ‘unbreakable’ because the cost of buying them out – to compensate for 20 years of lost revenue – is unaffordable. Therefore not legally ‘unbreakable’ but in practical terms they are.
—————————————————————————————————
How business works:
http://randomfunnypicture.com/funny-pictures-cartoon/how-business-works/
There was a ‘leaked’ document relating to this SPL TV thing. As I recall, the clubs were on the point of ‘going for it’ and ND (and someone else) gave them an ultimatum of some sort that they had to decide there and then to do it or not, but there had been (or followed) another ‘smaller’ meeting where they had decided to go with Sky/ESPN/whoever.
I recently moved all the documents I had onto storage and don’t have access just now but shall check later to see if i still have that one
twopanda says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:43 pm
4 0 Rate This
Full clarity is required
• Very –very little from the PR directed MSM – and zilch to the core of it
• `Sanitised` PR from `independent investigations`
• Silence from the SFA
• Nothing from the Police
• Studied inaction by other Authorities
Phil’s doing a great job!
±++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Agreed Phil is doing a great job.
However for all the reasons on your list that is why the matter needs sorted soon.
O/T If anyone fancies watching a potential cracker on Sunday, tickets for the Hamilton Accies-Falkirk play-off second leg are available on the day at the ground, £16 for adults, £8 concessions. The first leg was an absolutely wonderful match.
Campbell’s Money 5.14
What’s a widget? 🙂
scottc says:
May 16, 2014 at 9:29 pm
nowoldandgrumpy says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:51 pm
Cannot verify if the information in these tweets (read from bottom up) is correct. If so it shows how far the SFA are assisting one club to the determent of others.
========================================
There was a ‘leaked’ document relating to this SPL TV thing. As I recall, the clubs were on the point of ‘going for it’ and ND (and someone else) gave them an ultimatum of some sort that they had to decide there and then to do it or not, but there had been (or followed) another ‘smaller’ meeting where they had decided to go with Sky/ESPN/whoever.
=============================
I think the minute was leaked by CF and I’ve had a quick look but it must be on old ‘puter. From very vague memory there was decision by clubs to continue with investigating in-house TV but this was overturned by paid official without referring it back to clubs so there was a stushie.
I’ve looked at the tweets mentioned but maybe I’m being thick but I don’t understand exactly how only Rangers benefited from the TV deal. Maybe if anyone knows they can explain.
The ST renewal deadline (for seat retention) at Ibrox was today – so if anyone can make any sense of the following announcement…..?
“DUE to the high last-minute demand over the past few days, the Rangers Ticket Centre opening hours have been extended over the weekend.
The Ticket Centre will open from 10am–4pm on Saturday and Sunday in order for the Club to continue to accept season ticket renewals.”
http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/6975-ticket-centre-open-this-weekend?
Is this an extension to the renewal deadline ❓ ❓
ecobhoy says:
May 16, 2014 at 10:17 pm
0 1 Rate This
I think the tweeter and myself, meant that the money, allegedly, paid to BT to show TRFC matches, was to ensure that they were still a relevancy and an important brand to Scottish Football.
Auldheid
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical legal discussions and legal exams.
James Doleman says:
May 16, 2014 at 6:09 pm
upthehoops says:
May 16, 2014 at 3:53 pm
Re all this talk of onerous contracts down Ibrox way. I suspect we may have had another documentary well before now”
I’ve had one set of RFC stories rejected (although they offered to pay me anyway) as was told it was not worth the trouble it would cause the publisher, heard the same from people at the BBC.
They don’t do themselves any favour
============================================
Think about what James is saying here.
Neither the Rags nor the BBC want to touch these insights. Knowing James it wont be unsubstantial. I’ m really disgusted by this but (now) not surprised.
TSFM says:
May 16, 2014 at 7:09 pm
‘.My difficulty is that I don’t see how that affects the bottom line of the institutional investors like Laxeys..’
——-
I confess to having no real understanding of business or business finance, so by far the greater part of the discussions about admin, liquidation and all that kind of stuff ( no matter how patiently explained by posters) goes over my head.
But one thing sticks in my mind: Laxeys has a track record of going for disposal of assets. Their modus operandi-according to what I have read- is to :-
-find an ailing company , very badly managed and controlled by its directors,
-get onto the board, with a bit of clout,
– do nothing to help manage the business into profitability,
– force the Board to recognise that the game is up, and force closure of the business as being a non-profit making, non dividend- paying waste of time,
-realise some real return by disposal of the property assets for development .
Now, as to how all that would actually work in a way that made Laxey enough profit to make it worth while ( presumably other shareholders would have to get some share of whatever long-term value the assets might generate as, say, development sites and such) I haven’t a scooby.
But leopards do not change their spots…
Campbellsmoney
May 16, 2014 at 10:37 pm
…
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical legal discussions and legal exams.
=================
Ooft, Cm.
OK I’ll bite.
On behalf of fellow TSFM accountants;
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical accountancy discussions and accountancy exams.
We claim copyright (c)… 🙄
StevieBC
You “claim” copyright? Better leave that sort of stuff to the lawyers.
StevieBC says:
May 16, 2014 at 10:47 pm
0
0
Rate This
Campbellsmoney
May 16, 2014 at 10:37 pm
…
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical legal discussions and legal exams.
=================
Ooft, Cm.
OK I’ll bite.
On behalf of fellow TSFM accountants;
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical accountancy discussions and accountancy exams.
We claim copyright (c)… 🙄
==============================================================
Also used in manufacturing time and motion studies.
I actually visited a “widget” factory in the Birmingham jewellery quarter in the early 90s, being handmade casings for watches. Thhey had no other name for these stampings other than Widget.
StevieBC says:
May 16, 2014 at 10:47 pm
0
0
Rate This
Campbellsmoney
May 16, 2014 at 10:37 pm
…
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical legal discussions and legal exams.
=================
Ooft, Cm.
OK I’ll bite.
On behalf of fellow TSFM accountants;
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical accountancy discussions and accountancy exams.
We claim copyright (c)… 🙄
==============================================================
Also used in manufacturing time and motion studies.
I actually visited a “widget” factory in the Birmingham jewellery quarter in the early 90s, being handmade casings for watches. They had no other name for these stampings other than Widget.
parttimearab says:
May 16, 2014 at 10:29 pm
0 0 Rate This
The ST renewal deadline (for seat retention) at Ibrox was today – so if anyone can make any sense of the following announcement…..?
“DUE to the high last-minute demand over the past few days, the Rangers Ticket Centre opening hours have been extended over the weekend.
The Ticket Centre will open from 10am–4pm on Saturday and Sunday in order for the Club to continue to accept season ticket renewals.”
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Is there a £5 charge to join the Queue ?
Just like the Blackpool Pleasure Beach nowadays
£5 just to watch other people throw away their money
Anybody remember the laughing Clown ?
Wasn`t he called Chuckles?
He should have been
His hands were big enough
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
EcoBhoy you asked about debentures.
A debenture is an English term used to describe a document that creates a number of different securities. The securities that are created will usually include a floating charge and a variety of fixed securities. Many of these fixed securities are not competent in Scots law (an example would be a chattel motgage).
Debenture also means other things in other contexts but what I have described is what it means in the context of securities.
Goosy you taking me back to RTC days and Charles Penrose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI1nPd7hezM
TINCKS says:
May 16, 2014 at 8:44 pm
7 1 Rate This
In today’s Times quick crossword:
19 down – Rangers FC Stadium (5)
Since the Times welcomes correspondence from readers who feel any crossword clue might contain an error, where should I start?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/adam-shakes-ibrox-pillars-with-warning-of-bankruptcy-1-595808 ?
Excellent performance today TSFMers, on a par with Scot Gemmil”s boys. Long may it continue.
What can a poor boy do? I try to keep up, but I really don’t understand.
Is it the idea that those shareholders who have millions of 1p shares would like to continue milking the poor beast while keeping in alive until it staggers into the Premiership and the share price rises to the fanfare of flutes, blizzards of smsm tickertape and the hollow drum of SFA/SPFL backslapping, at which point they sell, whereas those who have paid 70p, or at least 70p minus a CG concession, (like Laxey’s whose addresses in Edinburgh and the Channel Islands are no doubt coincidental), have sacked the idiots that got them into this fine mess and are looking for a cut price way out?
What’s Ibrox worth anyway? It’s been sold once for a fraction of £1 and again for such a small fraction of £5.5M that it was imperceptible?
Is that it?
Why so little comment on the erstwhile “Charlotte” latest then, some interesting but (old) stuff. Everyone seen it all before or what?
TSFM
you asked something of me at about 7pm. I am afraid that I just don’t really know. Although Phils distinction between pre- and post-IPO shareholders is interesting.
For some time know I have struggled to understand why things are happening the way they are at TRFC and RIFC. It is simply not playing out like one would expect. It seems to be staying up supported by magic.
The idea that there are two opposed groups of rapacious shareholders (as well as the fans) somehow feels as though it makes sense. One group (pre-IPO) got in cheap and with the benefit of additional nice profitable contracts. Its in their interests to keep it trading as long as possible as every day is milking day.
The other group (post-IPO) want an insolvency of TRFC, a sale of assets and a dividend to RIFC (probably folowed by an MVL of RIFC) as quickly as possible to get as much cash back as quickly as they can.
Perhaps the latter group are not large enough to force the board to call it quits and so it limps on although all logic dictates it should be put out of its misery.
The option of cashing in by selling shares is probably not an option at all. This is because I do not believe that there would be buyers out there prepared to buy a large shareholding at anything like the current share price. The share price would plummet as others panic and try to grab what they can by way of sales before the whole thing just collapses. Its the Dutch tulip bulb thing. Once people see that in fact there are no buyers, the shares are worth nothing, the magic has been shown up to be just a bubble and puff, it has gone.
Off topic so I apologise, just want to say in case anyone did not notice that Scotland u17 team have qualified for the Euro semi finals and it will be shown live on TV on Sunday. Well done the boys, this armageddon might just catch on…….
Not sure but if you got 1p shares todays 28p would be an out price for me.
You wont get anyone prepared to buy out a sizeable shareholding at 28p. No one bought when the price was lower.
Anyway the share price on any given day is utterly meaningless. It can be moved up or down at will by spending a few thousand pounds.
And, if you cash in, you lose influence and put your lovely contract at risk.
ianagain says:
May 17, 2014 at 12:38 am
———-
and me, but I’m not a Spiv.
————-
Campbellsmoney says:
May 17, 2014 at 12:25 am
“all logic dictates it should be put out of its misery”.
——————————–
Struggling but persevering.
Excuse my pedantry.
This is not logic, formal or otherwise, surely? It’s money and what passes for business in this country it seems. The key is in there somewhere though.
A buyer for shares in TRFC/RIFC, both, whatever, in the Premiership?
At any price above about 5p, I win if I’m a 1p shareholder as I’ll get nothing really from a sell off of Ibrox: worth the gamble for me, especially if I’ve been milking. Any final return is a bonus, and I’m confident there will be a buyer.
Why? Pure speculation, but perhaps because I know that any doubts about the ownership of Ibrox will have disappeared, perhaps I even know how much Ibrox is valued culturally, perhaps there are people out there with cash to burn, perhaps I don’t know anything but it seems from a distance that someone is going to pop up with enough cash to make it worth my while because that seems to be what people in that country do, after all it doesn’t matter to me, I’m already in front and I have the beast by the teats.
Milk on, proxy!
Auldheid
I’m not sure if this has been discussed here, but I haven’t met too many people who think that Rangers, if they survive their current financial worries or even if they die again and are resurrected a second time will eventually rise through the leagues and once again become Celtics nearest challengers. They’re not going to do that with CL money. In fact at the moment they’re seriously financially disadvantaged.
To even get access to CL money they’ll need to catch and pass Celtic, but most people take it as given that they will become one of the top two again. How do you propose they do this?
I agree that CL money skews the game beyond all recognition, but access to that cash was cut from other clubs before it became anything like what it is today.
It took a combination of Romanov’s Murrayesque spending, his luck in having a great rump of a team to add to, Rangers already being in financial turmoil and Rangers players being in almost open revolt for Hearts to scrape second. A swift exit before getting anywhere near the real money followed and the following season that team is broken up for reasons that aren’t entirely Romanov’s fault, for fees that were well below the players’ value and it’s back to business as usual.
Celtic don’t need the CL money to be dominant now and the OF as was didn’t need it when Rangers were around. It just guarantees dominance, but the game’s already a bogey.
Even now do Celtic not budget to break even without any CL money and treat it as a windfall if they qualify? Sound financial planning yes, but it’s never endangered their position in the Scottish game.
As things stand, we’re claiming a revival in a league that Celtic won by a record number of points. Credit to Lennon that he can make his players turn up for almost every single game, but where are the games that prepare Celtic for next year’s CL? Eventually even Celtic will only qualify rarely unless they manufacture an escape route, or foster more than one team as domestic competition. Assuming the first is blocked and the second is eschewed by the board, do you really think Celtic will become less dominant domestically?
Celtic, in complicity with Rangers have implemented a setup that chokes off their own life blood. On top of that, many Celtic fans forget that your European adventures are done as representatives of the league you constantly undermine and talk about abandoning.
Many of you have forgotten domestic football is supposed to be a competition and that it’s incredibly insulting to fans of other Scottish teams to write them off as a complete irrelevance while walking away with more honours in five years than we will see in a lifetime.
It was genuinely heartening to hear so many Celtic fans were not in favour of leaving Scottish football the last time this came up. For those who see it the other way and think Celtic are being hard done by by not being allowed a lifeboat off a ship which they worked so hard to steer towards the rocks and which only they say is sinking, it’s hard to be sympathetic.
ecobhoy says:
May 16, 2014 at 9:33 am
57 1 Rate This
———————————————
Eco, you’ll be glad to know I’ve just plagiarised your old trade union mentors phrase and use it in daily correspondence with my members. Thank you sir as it receives much hilarity but gets the message of unity out there.
ianagain says:
May 17, 2014 at 12:05 am
The Charlottes are the girls who cried wolf.
I think most folk have just switched to ignore.
I personally would like those in possession of this info have the balls to take it to the authorities or the media instead of drip feeding us bampots to do their dirty work
Put up or shut up Charlotte(s)
Just when you thought you’d heard the last of Sevco 5088…..
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/whyte-partner-banned-after-probe-into-2m-asset-switch.24243736?
But in a rare move, Aiden Earley has been given sanction to remain for the time being as a director of Sevco 5088 Limited, the firm that bought the liquidated assets of Rangers oldco.
It is understood this is connected to his joint court battle with Mr Whyte as directors of Sevco 5088 over the ownership of Rangers.
….hmmmm…….
parttimearab says:
May 17, 2014 at 7:13 am
5 0 Rate This
Just when you thought you’d heard the last of Sevco 5088…..
———————————————————————————————————————
We have not heard the last of Sevco 5088 or Craig Whyte.
It has been a torrid couple of years down Govan way concerning the plight of the Ibrox club. IMO as a big club with a loyal support they were there for the taking by these outsiders/spivs. When people come into your club with no interest in the team and are solely there to line their pockets you have to quickly realise this get them out. This is logical and fans have to see through the fronts that the owners display. Fabric of society and all the terms we know associated with this club were wisely used as tools by the spivs to their financial advantage.The plan was so obvious all fans outwith Govan could see it and have talked about it openly on all sorts of forums. These spivs took the fans money and their club and thrown into the mix was the SFA Armageddon approach which basically tried to corrupt and remove all trust in our game ( know…) Now there seems to be a wake up call with the Govan fans, but they are split/divided and by being so is not going to help achieve their aim to remove the investors and board who run their club. They have to be as one which seems so unlikely at the moment. They want the old regime out but here is the problem do they all want DK in?, seems like this is dividing the fans (although the SMSM seem to push the DK camp). What is their alternative plan?, there is none. Do you want your club run by a known tax evader, how does that make sense and fill you with hope. A regular caller (Jimmy) summed it up last night on SSB. He stated he was not supporting the board or DK , but he had no alternative plan and was expecting real major doom and gloom (administration & liquidation) in the near future. Imagine feeling like this and seemingly having no power to do anything and sit back and watch your club (who you have supported all your life being ridiculed and destroyed (again) by people who support money only. I am so glad that my club is run by people whom I trust and I know that if this trust is mismanaged the fans of my club will as one not accept this.(which history foretells).
‘Aiden Earley has been given sanction to remain for the time being as a director of Sevco 5088 Limited, the firm that bought the liquidated assets of Rangers oldco.’
Oh really ❓ I’ll ignore the difference between liquidation and admin. But what can one say about the ability of Martin Williams – the senior news reporter of the Glasgow Herald who has extensively covered the Rangers story – who doesn’t realise that the assets were bought by Sevco Scotland.
Indeed has it never crossed the senior presumably experienced reporter’s mind that if Sevco 5088 had bought the Rangers assets then there would be no need for the CW/AE court case which is mentioned in the same article.
So this is what the GH has come to – it really is pitiful. If the senior news reporter is useless what does it say about the standards of ordinary reporters and the sub editors and the duty editor and news editor and everyone else at the organisation who read this story and didn’t spot that it was unadulterated mince or possibly succulent lamb not derived from the usual source.
There really is no hope for the SMSM IMO ❗
PTD
Interesting hypothesis and one I have degree of sym
I thought a widget was a very fast plane made out of balsa. 😀
ianagain says:
May 16, 2014 at 11:02 pm
4 0 Rate This
StevieBC says:
Campbellsmoney
May 16, 2014 at 10:37 pm
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical legal discussions and legal exams.
=================
Ooft, Cm.
OK I’ll bite.
On behalf of fellow TSFM accountants;
A widget is a small manufactured item exclusively for use in hypothetical accountancy discussions and accountancy exams.
We claim copyright (c)… 🙄
==============================================================
Also used in manufacturing time and motion studies.
I actually visited a “widget” factory in the Birmingham jewellery quarter in the early 90s, being handmade casings for watches. They had no other name for these stampings other than Widget.
===================================================
Ianagain appears to have the “rights” on this one, copy, blagging/blogging or otherwise…!
I first came across it in first year university management/time & motion studies…then first year economics…then first year accountancy…then first year TSFM studies…!
I trust Ianagain collected said widget as part of his “empirical evidence”…?
Record now putting ST sales at 10k.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/battle-rangers-clubs-wealthiest-150-3553825?
Would have copied excerpts from the article but in a bit of a rush……things to do……places to go…….. 😀
PTD
Interesting hypothesis and one I have degree of sympathy with.
The old model carried the same problem, that of club domination and whilst I would hesitate to use as strong a term as abuse of power there was certainly a degree of muscle demonstrated ( the 11-1 voting structure being a good example) that one would struggle to argue was for the greater good. The approach from the Doncaster camp seems to be that as long as the domination was shared by two parties and therefore 80% (2 * 40% for easy maths) then all was good and in fact because the two were so closely matched giving the helicopter factor plus the particular nuance of the direct meeting between the two and it was considered eminently marketable (badly as it turns out).
Two factors should be borne in mind though. One of the dominant parties imploded big style. That they did was not the SPL’s fault although one should always raise an eyebrow towards the SFA’s regulatory function). The biggest disappointment of the self induced implosion to us mere diddies was the ready (aye ready!) determination to recreate the situation, whatever it took. As an aside the fact that CG harnessed that I’ll thought, I’ll advised, corrupted and unnecessary determination and has milked it to his own end gives me nothing but pleasure!
Returning to my waffle. So you have two sides locked in a mutually beneficial power race. One side implodes. I’m not entirely clear (supportive of your general arguement as I am) what exactly is it you expect the surviving dominant force in Celtic to do?
wildwood says:
May 17, 2014 at 6:19 am
ianagain says:
May 17, 2014 at 12:05 am
The Charlottes are the girls who cried wolf.
I think most folk have just switched to ignore.
I personally would like those in possession of this info have the balls to take it to the authorities or the media instead of drip feeding us bampots to do their dirty work
=======================================
Put up or shut up Charlotte(s)
=========================
I don’t care where info comes from or the reasons it has been leaked although it can be very useful to have an idea of the leaker’s motives.
I don’t take much notice of the current charlottes but devoured all that was said by the original.
However back to leaked info – there are often many good reasons why a leaker chooses to remain anonymous and it often takes a lot of bottle to even leak the stuff let alone officially report it yourself especially if there might be certain legal niceties involved or, indeed, you fear for your job or personal safety.
I ignore nothing because one can never be sure when it might become an important link or useful piece of info. But it takes hard work and lots of time and many just aren’t prepared to put in the graft and expect others to do all the heavy lifting. I have no problem with that but don’t blame the leakers for ‘only’ leaking.
ecobhoy says:
May 17, 2014 at 8:59 am
Which is exactly why I think that Phil Mac or indeed anyone else needs to get this story blown widen open and soon.
The quicker that happens the quicker we can all help T’Rangers become a well run and sustainable member of the Scottish Football family or alternatively we can tell them not to darken our doorstep until they sort themselves out
Otherwise,mark my words, the whole debacle will crash around the rest of Scottish Football at at time they will least want or need it.
Now if that were to happen who would see it as an advantage? The press of course. What they don’t want is the thing to get sorted out with a whimper in the off season, that doesn’t sell copy. They are more than happy to see the matter drag on as long as possible. Easy money to fill column inches and air time when you have a guaranteed story every few weeks without doing any digging or analysis.
WIDGETS
I always thought ‘widgets’ were invented when Guiness put its new device to keep the head in a can of beer by releasing the gas.
Now I wonder if that’s when widgets were first ‘coined’ or whether they were there before. The strange places that TSFM reaches that other blogs don’t 😉
Widget.?
Is that not used in cans of beer to give the drink a nice smooth head 😕
sorry i just read the post above…….it’s early
ecobhoy says:
May 17, 2014 at 9:34 am
0 0 Rate This
WIDGETS
I always thought ‘widgets’ were invented when Guiness put its new device to keep the head in a can of beer by releasing the gas.
Now I wonder if that’s when widgets were first ‘coined’ or whether they were there before. The strange places that TSFM reaches that other blogs don’t 😉
============================================
Ecobhoy…trust you to bring the discussion down to everyday understandable terms…!
However, I do think you have mixed your advertising metaphors…in an ironic manner of course.
wottpi says:
May 17, 2014 at 9:32 am
ecobhoy says:
May 17, 2014 at 8:59 am
I think it’s very unfair to lay the possible destruction of the whole of Scottish Football on Phil’s doorstep because he isn’t meeting the timetable you think is required in releasing info.
I posted last night on reasons why a journo often has no control over the timing of info released from a source. Phil I believe also posted that he was protecting his source I believe that to any ethical journo that should be more important than even the future of Scottish Football .
You say this story has to be ‘blown widen open and soon’ to save Scottish Football. I don’t want to sound cheeky but it might well be that if this were to happen then it would actually destroy or severely damage Scottish Football.
[]
Sometimes we just have to be patient and wait for things to unfold and at the end of the day ‘what will be, will be’ and I truly doubt if anything will actually change that no matter how desperate we might be to get all the juicy details 😎
Btw I am actually more relaxed about the future of Scottish Football than I have been for years – we have identified many of the problems and exposed a lot of dark places and it is being talked about in the open by tens of thousands of fans.
Things will get better and if we stay vigilant it won’t slip back and yea if we can pin a few of the bad guys to the wall like cockroaches then that’s an added bonus. Whether that happens or not though won’t really affect Scottish Football although I have to admit it will produce an internal glow of satisfaction which I know I should feel vaguely guilty about. Btw I don’t 😆
Smugas says:
May 17, 2014 at 9:22 am
PTD
So you have two sides locked in a mutually beneficial power race. One side implodes. I’m not entirely clear (supportive of your general arguement as I am) what exactly is it you expect the surviving dominant force in Celtic to do?
=========================================
It would appear from some of the posts on the subject that Celtic either leaves for another league somewhere or is overtaken by other Scottish teams.
As to the latter that may well be the case and it’s possible that Celtic could decline in footballing terms.
And there comes the problem because if the vacuum was filled – say for sake of argument – by Dundee Utd and Aberdeen. So they totally dominate the league in terms of power wielded and financial muscle then nothing will have changed except the names at the top. Power vacuums don’t remain unfilled im my experience.
Of course perhaps this could be avoided by only placing teams in order of footballing achievements from third place down in any league. The top 2 teams would be picked yearly on a random basis except no team so picked could be picked again until every other team had a top 2 place. Oh and the financial rewards for the 2 top teams would be identical.
That would be totally fair and meant that everyone had a shot at power and dominance. You just couldn’t get any fairer than that. I just wonder how long it would be until Scottish Football really was destroyed.
Good luck to all Saintees and Arabs today. Scottish Football will be the real winners.
[]
ecobhoy says:
May 17, 2014 at 9:50 am
I’m not blaming Phil for anything, we know where the problem lies.
Frankly it is all well and good us playing nicey nicey goody two shoes (Patience, patience etc) but IMHO what is now happening is paralysis by analysis.
The footballing authorities need to tell the T’Rangers to get their act sorted and by a specified date come out with an open, transparent, detailed and published plan that proves to one and all they will be able to compete next season. I would again ask from a bond a la Livingston to ensure they mean business.
They ain’t going to do that so either their hand is pushed or the debacle will just continue on and on and on.
While I enjoy your posts on the Bears Land Experts you must agree that a lot of hot air, nonsense, time and expense has been wasted on an issue that could have been resolved in half the time.
As discussed I see no benefit to football whatsoever of heading into yet another season with uncertainty hanging over the goings on of Ibrox club, especially when you have the example of Hearts resolving their issues and pushing ahead plans to run the club on a sustainable financial model. No talking up Premiership titles and Euro dreams, just basic survival and prudence to avoid falling back into the abyss.
As Big Pink has shown Scottish Football will survive without Rangers be that forever or for a short time while they sort themselves out.
IMHO opinion the issue needs sorted once and for all this off season.
If Phil Mac or anyone else with more of an inside track can help reach that goal then more power to their elbow.
If Sevco fans cant see that Whyte is lining up for a whopper pay off, there is no hope for them, again!
They had a ‘Fergus McCann’ in Hugh Adam, Minty kicked him onto the street and set his press pack on him, that was the moment I knew these days would definately come, with all the manure they cast over all other teams, I have the sum total of %0 sympathy, I hope they enjoyed their grubby 9 in a row.
C’mon Whyte!
nowoldandgrumpy says:
May 16, 2014 at 10:34 pm
ecobhoy says:
May 16, 2014 at 10:17 pm
I think the tweeter and myself, meant that the money, allegedly, paid to BT to show TRFC matches, was to ensure that they were still a relevancy and an important brand to Scottish Football.
===================================================
Ah I didn’t realise that the alleged payments to BT were allegedly just to ensure they showed matches involving Rangers. I thought that it probably covered all teams.
Indeed it would make economic sense IMO to pay BT money to show teams other than Rangers where the potential viewing audience was smaller.
I have no wish to become involved in a squabble over whether Rangers has: ‘Relevancy and (is) an important brand to Scottish Football’. However what I know for fact is that their supporters have relevancy in terms of viewing figures for BT whether other people recognise and accept that or not.
And that’s what leaves me puzzled about the allegations made. They may well be correct and if so then the SPFL really has lost it if they are paying money to BT to show Rangers games which they would have shown for nothing.
However I’ll wait to see what concrete evidence is produced to back-up the statements before I come to a conclusion because tweeting isn’t really very conducive to making a structured and detailed argument in an understandable way IMO.
ianagain says:
May 16, 2014 at 10:43 pm
21
2
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James Doleman says:
May 16, 2014 at 6:09 pm
upthehoops says:
May 16, 2014 at 3:53 pm
Re all this talk of onerous contracts down Ibrox way. I suspect we may have had another documentary well before now”
I’ve had one set of RFC stories rejected (although they offered to pay me anyway) as was told it was not worth the trouble it would cause the publisher, heard the same from people at the BBC.
They don’t do themselves any favour
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Think about what James is saying here.
Neither the Rags nor the BBC want to touch these insights. Knowing James it wont be unsubstantial. I’ m really disgusted by this but (now) not surprised.
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This is the real scandal of Scottish society, not just scottish football.
Disgraceful behavior from an *egregious 4th estate.
Welcome to North Korea.
*look in the dictionary Keef!… or have you burnt that along with all the rest of the journalism textbooks?