Beware the angry Shareholders — they might just demand an answer!

Good Evening,

Whilst it is understandable that the continuing events at Ibrox remain a hot topic among all Scottish Football Fans — especially given the views of some sections of the press on such events– the never ending rush down the marble staircase is certainly not the only show in town.

The other morning we were treated to the “scoop” that Alistair Johnstone is afraid that Craig Whyte– the once proclaimed Multi Billionaire from Motherwell- may well still be pulling all the strings at Ibrox! This is a fear which is shared by those who walk the corridors of Hampden Park as they, too, are terrified of the prospect of Whyte returning in some shape or form and coming back to haunt them, especially as he has been deemed unfit and proper, banned sine die, and generally ridiculed for his past actions.

However, the Hampden jackets know fine well that their realm only stretches so far and that if by means of the proper application of company law, contract or some other piece of paper Whyte controls the shareholding of the self proclaimed “parent company” to the football club then they are in a fix. In fact, I will wager that they just would not know how to deal with such a situation as after all RIFC PLC neither holds a licence to play football nor is a member of the SFA and so, on the face of it, who owns it has nothing to do with them.

At this juncture, no one in authority knows who Blue Pitch Holdings are and, strangely, no one in authority knows who Margarita Holdings are either! Yet these two “holdings” whoever they may be, may well hold all the power down Govan way…… with the SFA completely powerless to find out who they are let alone get into any dialogue with them. All the SFA can do is talk to the appointed Directors and officers of The Rangers Football Club Ltd.

This, is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.

Meanwhile, they will have no difficulty in finding out who the new shareholders of Dunfermline Athletic are. Those shareholders will come from the fanbase and will be clearly registered at Companies House, with the result that ultimately those fans/shareholders will appoint Directors who will then attend meetings and speak and opine on their behalf and in essence be the ” Voice of Dunfermline” at Hampden.

Perhaps, similar will follow from Heart of Midlothian?

However, those at Hampden — if they have any sense at all– will be most wary of events happening in the east end of Glasgow come November.

In the middle of the month, Celtic PLC will hold its AGM and amidst the items on the agenda is the fan driven notion that the Club— through its Directors—- should go further in holding the SFA to account and enquire into the granting of club licences, and in particular how it granted Rangers a club licence that allowed entry to the Champions League in 2011 when the small tax case was outstanding.

The Celtic board have deemed this motion as “Unnecessary” and in support of that contention have released documentation showing that they raised this very issue with the SFA on behalf of the shareholders and fans. Further– and here is the rub— The Directors reveal that they were not satisfied with the SFA response and have disclosed that they took the matter further and wrote to UEFA.

Ultimately, UEFA also provided a reply, which backed the SFA approach and which Celtic had little option but to accept  in the absence of admissible contradicting evidence..

It is on this basis, that Peter Lawell and Co say the AGM motion is not necessary. Note that saying that the motion is not necessary, is not at all the same thing as saying that what the motion seeks to achieve is not necessary or does not have the support of the board!

There will be those at Hampden who severely hope that the Celtic Board are successful in voting this measure down as obviously they deem their original reply sufficient and would like to end the discussion there.

However, my own view, is that whether the motion is successful or not, there are those within the SFA who will recognise there is trouble staring them in the face here. Real Trouble!

Let’s recap for a moment and draw some threads together.

Celtic’s past Chairman, Dr John Reid, said only a couple of years ago that the SFA was clearly not fit for purpose. He did so in the context of events surrounding Neil Lennon and other matters, but was unshakably robust in his condemnation of an institutionalised uselessness which he saw pervaded the Hampden ranks.

Prior to that, Henry McLeish produced a report which stated that he too had concerns about the Governance of Scottish Football and called for openness and transparency.

In the intervening period, we have seen Mr David Longmuir, former Chief Executive of the Scottish Football League, find himelf without a position following reconstruction– and this partly as a result of club chairmen being apparently kept in the dark about his payment, bonuses and expenes. I understand that there was considerable anger from some at the way in which they had been treated by Mr Longmuir.

Then there is Mr Campbell Ogilvie, El Presidente, who himself benefited from a Rangers EBT and who held sway at Ibrox during a period of time when Rangers– by their own admission— made unlawful and illegal payments to three high profile players in breach of tax laws and SFA/SPL rules. It is these breaches and the consequent Wee Tax Bill which has caused all the angst among Celtic fans and has lead to the highly regulated legal step of tabling a motion at the club’s AGM.

Basically, the position seems to be, that as at the due date when the appropriate documents and declarations were made for a Euro Licence by Rangers for 2011, the wee tax bill was outstanding and due. If it was overdue, then the SFA could not and should not have granted them a licence……. and potentially Celtic should then have been put forward as Scotland’s representatives in the Champion’s League.

However, that did not happen, and Ranger’s were granted a licence– something that the Celtic Directors clearly felt was not correct.

They may have disagreed with the awarding of the licence because there were those at Rangers at the time who declared that a payment to account had been made to the tax office– allegedly £500,000– and that they had entered into an agreement to make payment of the balance by instalments. Had that been so, then all would have been hunky dory and no more would have been said.

Alas, however, no such payment appears to have been made at all, and no such agreement was entered into and so, on that basis, the tax bill was overdue and outstanding as at 30th June in terms of Article 66 and as such no Euro Licence should have been granted.

However, the argument does not end there.

Auldheid, has posted frequently on these pages about the ins and outs of the licensing provisions and the mechanism and so I will leave that detail to him as he is far more expert in these areas than me.

Now, one of the SFA functions is to have an auditor– someone who can check books, contracts, paper work and so on, and it is part of the SFA licensing function to be satisfied that all the paperwork is of course correct and in proper fashion before they issue any licence.

In this case, it is alleged that the SFA did not perform their function properly.

In relation to the wee tax case, it is said that either they did not make sufficient enquiry of Rangers re the payment to account or the agreement which they were told was in place. At the time it was mooted in the press that no such agreement was in place as at the relevant date ( June 30th ) and a simple check with the revenue would have shown the truth of the matter.

Yet, for whatever reason, no such check appears to have been made, and if you recall a Radio Scotland interview with Alistair Johnstone, Rangers submitted the forms, the SFA replied with one or two enquiries about the BIG tax case which were answered, and thereafter the Licence appears to have simply dropped through the letter box without further ado.

You will also recall that the existence of the wee tax case became known BEFORE Craig Whyte bought David Murray’s shareholding in May 2011. In fact it was the subject of News Paper headlines weeks before the deal was completed, and so the fact that there was a wee tax bill was well and truly in the public domain.

When it came to filling in the appropriate forms,either, the SFA were mislead by those then at Rangers with regard to that tax bill, OR, they simply failed to do the requisite checks and make reasonable enquiries before they issued the licence.

However, the uncomfortable fact also remains, that one of the chaps who must have been in the know re the admittedly unlawful and offending side letters, contracts and payments to the three players concerned  was Campbell Ogilivie who was on the Rangers Board at the relevant time when the contracts and irregular payments were made under the Discount Options Scheme  from 1999 to 2002/3. Indeed he may even have initiated the first payment to Craig Moore in 1999. I reiterate that no one has ever contested that this was an unlawful scheme, and the irregular payments and paperwork are not denied in relation to that scheme.

There are Celtic shareholders who believe, rightly or wrongly, that when it came to the granting of the Euro Licence, the SFA did not play them fair on this occasion and that the wheels within Hampden were oiled in such a way that Rangers were favoured and Celtic were disadvantaged. It is a point that looks to have already been considered by the Celtic Directors in 2011, with the result that they concluded that they should formally write to the SFA and seek clarification.

However, we now have the prospect of those same directors having to go back to Hampden and say   ” Sorry, but I am forced to bring this up by my shareholders. I have a legal duty to them to enquire further”. Even if the motion is refused, the point has been made– there are shareholders who are demanding answers– just as shareholders of other clubs demand answers about the ever so secret 5 way agreement and other matters which have hitherto been not for public consumption.

The SFA have nothing to fear of course as they can simply repeat their previous answers,demonstrate that all was above board, and rest easy in their beds.

Except that answer did not satisfy the Celtic Directors on a previous occasion as they decided to take the matter to UEFA, and it would appear that some Celtic shareholders remain dissatisfied with the known stance of the SFA and so they want the Directors of the club to delve further. Without wishing to point out the obvious, if it turns out that the 2011 Licensing process was somehow fudged and not conducted rigorously or that those at Hampden were in any way economical with the truth or omitted certain details from the previous explanation, or covered up a failure in procedures—- well such omissions have  a habit of becoming public these days whether that be through the internet or otherwise.

The point here is that the actions of Hampden officials are coming under organised, legal and planned corporate scrutiny over which they have no control. The Blazer and club mentality that was once so widespread within the governing bodies is under increasing attack and is being rendered a thing of the past.

In short, the move by Celtic shareholders, is making it plain that they will demand proper corporate governance from their club in ensuring that any alleged failure in corporate governance by the SFA or SPFL is properly investigated and reported on.

Of course, if it turns out that the 2011 Licensing process was somehow fudged and not conducted properly for whatever reason, then it could be argued that Celtic were disadvantaged in monetary terms along with other clubs who may have been awarded Europa League licences, then the consequences could be cataclysmic. Hence a tendency to circle the wagons rather than admit to failures in the process that need addressing.

It is this reluctance to come out and accept that the licensing process appears to have failed, say at what point the process failed and what needs to be done to address those failures that in many ways has driven the resolution. It is clear to all that something is amiss but the SFA will not admit it, probably from fear of the consequences of doing so?  Perhaps some form of indemnity, a lessons learned enquiry with no prejudice might help?

It would come as no surprise to me at all if there were those at Hampden who live in dreaded fear of admitting that their processes were flawed and that a grave mistake was made. Under these circumstances, there may well be those at Hampden who simply wish that Celtic and their fans would just go away!

 

4,365 thoughts on “Beware the angry Shareholders — they might just demand an answer!


  1. Barcabhoy says:

    =====================

    Your point is of course correct.

    I was using a bit of ironic licence.


  2. Lawwell is on record as saying Celtic budget on reaching Europa league group stage annually and that without CL money a player needs to be sold each year to reach break-even. That is one of the reasons they scout and sign young talented players to create the sales pipeline that helps balance the books if on field performances don’t generate the required funds.

    I believe that the sales of Wanyama, Hooper and Wilson are not in the latest set of accounts released to end June 2013 and fall into the current financial year as sales took place in July or later.

    Celtic, whether you like it or not, are a well run business and have a clear financial plan that does not require an individual benefactor. The vast majority of fans understand that reality albeit its easier to when you are winning trophies and reaching the CL.

    I posted previously about the need for Rangers fans to “get” what living within means will entail. it might mean a season or two in the championship, it might mean scraping into top 6 of premiership for a while. Get a good manager, buy cheaply and sell on for a profit.

    It is not hard.

    Just different.


  3. jean7brodie says: (338)
    November 3, 2013 at 11:02 pm

    Carntyne says: (90)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:53 pm

    Don’t understand your comment Carntyne. ❓
    The operative word is ‘return’ not ‘if’ or ‘when’.
    ____________________________________
    The remark was addressed to Greenock Jack who said…
    …but prices will go back up when Rangers return to the top tier.


  4. Greenock Jack says: (132)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:59 pm
    ########
    I have every sympathy with supporters like yourself. My problem is with the misrepresentation of the truth by those tasked with reporting facts. Predominant amongst those is the MSM. The people who are paid to investigate, dissect, analyse and question are in dereliction of their responsibilities. This blog has many posters who ask, and answer questions, without fear of owners or boards. PR people weeing in the soup doesn’t help.
    DK like Ally understands a ‘start from scratch’ approach. Telling lies won’t cut it.


  5. Greenock Jack says: (132)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:59 pm

    Quite apart from all the financial questions, this brings to the fore another issue that will be difficult to heal. The anger and hatred that has been sown during these past couple of years amongst both sides of the debate. Now I know this is an emotive issue and therefore probably difficult to have constructive coversation but I’d just like to mention it as being a potential problem when Rangers get back into SPFL1.
    +++++++++++++
    I think we all know exactly what to expect, Jack. Which is why many of us, who perhaps had no opinion on the matter before, are now hoping that the toxic Ibrox brand is soon extinguished once and for all. Personally speaking, I’ve had a gut full of the WATP, supremacist garbage that has gone into overdrive over the last two years. The unpalatable (for you, anyway) fact is that most people now believe that Scottish football would be much better off with no team playing at Ibrox. That is where the WATP mentality has taken us. There will be no tears shed outside the Ibrox bubble if the next chapter is the final chapter. I dearly hope it is, but I doubt it. This pestilence will be like warts- very hard to get rid of.


  6. Barcabhoy says: (260)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:30 pm

    When Rangers supporters talk about Celtic’s crowd’s , they never acknowledge Celtic have the 2nd highest total home attendance so far this season in the UK . Only Man Utd have more. Celtic fans have paid a small fortune to watch the club this season.
    Rangers by comparison have played to a much smaller total home attendance, and the cost to Rangers fans has been nowhere close that which Celtic fans have contributed.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Surely, given the enormous ocean of truth and hard facts supporters of the Ibrox club choose to ignore, we should not be surprised at the lack of objectivity when it comes to games with numbers – especially to suit their argument of being the same/ biggest/ better/ bestest and Celtic being an awful lot less than they claim to be? No?
    In fact, this aversion to ever being able or really wanting to understand their own place in club football is part of the reason SDM shot his load and everything that has followed. It has always been the case for them. We saw it again just last week with Mr Stockbridge’s ‘gallant’ acceptance of the selection of Ibrox for the semi-finals of the Scottish Cup. Its part of the reason, I suspect, many other fans have very basic problems with the Ibrox club.
    It was something along these lines that created the atmosphere, last year, that lead to the warnings of social unrest and all the rest of it. They are simply the biggest, to lose them was Armageddon, secret deals had to be made, 500 million fans needed to be saved, world records were broken each time they opened the gates. Celtic Park is currently 20% larger than Ibrox – it could be twice the size and bursting every match, this would not be acknowledged. It would be the first sorry step to them considering not being the biggest/ best and that isn’t going to happen soon. Certainly not while they are on their way back to the top and their friends CO/ SFA are pulling every string they can to keep them on track.


  7. Greenock Jack says:

    I hardly mention Celtic and the sirens go off, I reply with my views (not even controversial) and I’m persona non-grata. It’s what I’d expect from a Celtic messageboard.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    Then how come none of your posts are deleted and mine are?


  8. Greenock Jack says:
    November 3, 2013 at 10:59 pm

    On the Rangers side, interestingly it was DK that said that the club needed to show more humility.
    ============================================

    Which “club” is that Jack?

    Murray’s?
    Whyte’s?
    Green’s?
    Mather’s?
    Stockbridges’s?
    Easdale’s?
    Jack’s?
    Chico’s?

    There’s been plenty of time over the last 2 years for humility. It’s never happened, and it never will!

    If there was a sudden outbreak of humility from Edmiston Drive over the next week, then that would be a Game Changer!

    It’s not going to happen though, despite DK’s recent desperate attempts at being the peacemaker.

    Can the current crowd running the show in Govan ever be humble and show humility?

    Will their World Record supporters go along with and endorse a humble apology?

    Nah! Didn’t think so either. Can’t quite see a statement on Vanguard Bears or Mr Graham’s site with a big apology to all decent Tax Payers.


  9. Neepheid
    I think we all know exactly what to expect, Jack. Which is why many of us, who perhaps had no opinion on the matter before, are now hoping that the toxic Ibrox brand is soon extinguished once and for all. Personally speaking, I’ve had a gut full of the WATP, supremacist garbage that has gone into overdrive over the last two years. The unpalatable (for you, anyway) fact is that most people now believe that Scottish football would be much better off with no team playing at Ibrox. That is where the WATP mentality has taken us. There will be no tears shed outside the Ibrox bubble if the next chapter is the final chapter. I dearly hope it is, but I doubt it. This pestilence will be like warts- very hard to get rid of.

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    I think that your post illustrates what this is all about for many on here and elsewhere.
    Strip away the numbers, the investigations into individuals or companies, the projections etc. That’s just an interesting sport, pastime or sideshow along the way.

    Scottish football has never been short on ‘hatred’ but I think that the last couple of years has radicalised many ‘middle of the road types’ on both sides of the ‘debate’ (including Arbroath fans / wink).


  10. fergussingstheblues says: (69)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    Hately red card v Brugges

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzfniIEZsTo

    ….and a story by Keef from DR bemoaning that Walter had been denied opportunity to go to final by a club that was “corrupt to the core”!!

    I still wonder about Mark Hateley red card that hurt Rangers’ chances of European Cup glory, reveals Walter Smith
    9 May 2008 00:00
    WALTER SMITH has spent 15 years wondering whether or not he was cheated out of leading Rangers into a European Cup Final.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/i-still-wonder-about-mark-hateley-red-976795 May 2008
    WALTER SMITH has spent 15 years wondering whether or not he was cheated out of leading Rangers into a European Cup Final.

    Next Wednesday in Manchester will come his chance to wipe out that memory forever.

    Smith admitted yesterday a little bit of him still cannot quite get over the suspicious circumstances which scarred Marseille’s Champions League triumph in 1993.

    One particular decision – the red card which ruled Mark Hateley out of Smith’s team for a do-or-die clash with the French club – still perplexes the Rangers manager who can’t help but wonder what might have been had his team made it through to face AC Milan in the final.

    Instead, it was left to Marseille – an outfit that was later found to be corrupt to the core – who went on to lift the greatest prize in club football.

    And now that Smith is preparing to lead his team into battle for the UEFA Cup, he can admit he’s still haunted by the one that got away.

    Yesterday he said: “That would annoy anyone. There were a whole load of circumstances around that but there was one real contentious decision that sticks with me – the ordering-off of Mark Hateley against Bruges. It meant he was banned for the game in Marseille.

    “That still rankles because we don’t get many opportunities to get to major European finals. It sticks in the back of your mind.

    “Were we cheated? Well, that would make a good headline for you.

    “But, like I say, I couldn’t work out why Hateley was sent off. I still can’t. But he missed that game in Marseille and if we had won we would have been in the final. It rankles.”

    Maybe Keef could ask Attila about it?


  11. GJ

    There is an anger on this board towards RFC (for rather obvious reasons) and towards TRFC (for their expertise in avoiding the sovereignty of the SFA rules).

    Your rather simplistic (and desperately disappointing) inference that because of that, we are a Celtic blog is just a load of tosh – and I suspect you know that. The anger is not aimed at you, but you have tried to draw derision all night. Whataboutery is not argument or debate. It is just deflection. I am beginning to suspect my earlier hope that you would enlighten us with your vision of how you saw the way forward was a futile one.

    Perhaps you know more about Dave King than the rest of us, perhaps privy to some info we are not, but I have heard nothing other than platitudes which avoid the need for the very humility that Dave King speaks about. The atmosphere in Scottish football in respect of TRFC is poisoned because no-one anywhere is giving it Rangers fans straight. They have been socially engineered into a perma-rage over imagined misdeeds and infamy on the part of just about every constituency of world soccer – all to fill the boots of the spivs you say you care little for.

    A long term plan for a sustainable Rangers would actually SHOW, and not merely pay lip service to, some humility. It would take the calculated risk of pissing off the mob in thawing out that perma-rage, by lowering expectations to manageable levels, and by looking inwardly when apportioning blame for the condition the fans find themselves in – that of surviving the club they all grew up supporting.

    RFC are in liquidation because of decades of mismanagement by Murray and finished off by Whyte. NONE of this is the fault of any other club, institution or individual in Scotland. Other than bragging rights, no-one anywhere has “kicked them when they are down”. TRFC and RFC before them have done a great job when it comes to putting the boot in. Even if any of us were inclined to be Rangers haters, the self-abuse of those running both clubs would render us redundant.

    But the anger at Rangers past deeds is finite. Rangers paid the ultimate price for their stupidity and larceny, and we need to move on. Whilst there are I am sure many Rangers fans who see a sensible way forward, there are oh so few who dare to speak of it.

    Today Jack, you became one of them. Possibly weeks away from administration, you want to talk about how other clubs need to run their business? Massive fail.

    No club in Scotland has any “rightful” entitlement to a place at the very top. Depressingly, only one club (and apparently most of its adherents) is in denial about that.


  12. Greenock Jack says: (133)

    I think that your post illustrates what this is all about for many on here and elsewhere.
    Strip away the numbers, the investigations into individuals or companies, the projections etc. That’s just an interesting sport, pastime or sideshow along the way.

    Scottish football has never been short on ‘hatred’ but I think that the last couple of years has radicalised many ‘middle of the road types’ on both sides of the ‘debate’ (including Arbroath fans / wink).

    _______________________________________________________________________________

    You have a point. Except – pertinently – it has not radicalised fans to hate RFC (deceased) or any incarnation of ithe club’s tribute acts. It has radicalised them to protest at the blatant unsporting nature of EBTs when coupled with the sporting and judicial authorities ignoring, bending, stretching or misinterpreting their rule books and laws to the benefit of one club.

    People don’t hate RFC(deceased) or Sevco fans. Or the clubs. They hate cheating.


  13. Greenock Jack says: (132)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:59 pm
    It’s obvious that there is an underlying feeling of anger that makes this blog next to impossible for a Rangers supporter, unless he says what people want to hear.
    Quite apart from all the financial questions, this brings to the fore another issue that will be difficult to heal. The anger and hatred that has been sown during these past couple of years amongst both sides of the debate.

    ——————————————————————————————
    There’s anger on both sides, but hatred comes from only one side.
    It’s the the side that lied and cheated and died defeated.

    My anger comes from being a football fan denied through cheating that which for me makes football, well football. Celtic fans like me were cheated out Champions League football and a number of flag days. Fans of other clubs were cheated out of trophies, cup runs and cup wins. But at a very basic level, somewhere a father and son missed out on the special feeling that’s only achieved when their little team beats the big team at a match they attended. I remember coming out of the Jungle with my dad and uncle when Celtic beat Real Madrid in the 80s, an incredible feeling it’s one of my treasured football memories.
    It probably sounds maudlin daft, or a scene from Ripping Yarns, but it makes me angry.

    This nonsense about both sides being the same in this ‘dispute’ disgusts me, I expect to see it in the MSM, but not on here. This is a place of reasoned intellectual discussion and learned mature dissection of evidence.
    I don’t have the forensic or analytical skills of some of the TSFM Laureates but when something gets my blood up I log in and post what I see as the truth.

    Therefore can the trolls and squirrel throwers please go fornicate off.


  14. Greenock Jack says: (133)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    It’s what I’d expect from a Celtic messageboard.
    ____________________________

    Inverness Caledonian Thistle m8…
    The second best team in Scots football at present.
    (League tables do not lie!) You probably remember how that felt.
    You may not have heard of us, but we pay our taxes and are financially solvent, so we could probably teach your mob a thing or two.

    Anyhow, should you wish to dismiss completely my contribution here, I shall have no qualms about ignoring yours.

    Sorry…. was I being a bit arrogant there?

    And… tell me… did it make you feel more or less well disposed towards me Jack?


  15. paulsatim says: (601)
    November 3, 2013 at 11:40 pm
    0 0 Rate This

    fergussingstheblues says: (69)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    Hately red card v Brugges
    %%%
    http://m.espn.go.com/soccer/story?storyId=884486&src=desktop
    %%%%
    Offered a bribe not to play, which he refused, but turns out he didn’t play anyway because after elbowing and punching a Bruges’ player he was ‘inexplicably sent off’ ©Walter & Mark.


  16. Greenock Jack says: (133)
    November 3, 2013 at 11:39 pm

    …Scottish football has never been short on ‘hatred’ but I think that the last couple of years has radicalised many ‘middle of the road types’ on both sides of the ‘debate’ (including Arbroath fans / wink).
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Greenock Jack! That’s a cracker!
    Personally speaking I visited many grounds throughout the 90’s, just watching games. I got to go to Ibrox a few times as I had a route to tickets from a well known for being minging lager company. That place was an absolute eye opener! I was stunned. It was the first and only time I sensed hatred all around me, it didn’t feel like a game between two teams. I wish fans of the Ibrox club could have seen it as an outsider. A long time has passed and I have never gone back there, but I have been plenty of other places and have never, ever experienced that again. I’m sure you believe what you say, but really, apart from the so called minorities at each club, most fans just go along for the football.

    I think what Neepheid’s post actually illustrated was also a genuine feeling. That had RIFC gone about things in a truly dignified fashion last year and tried to walk a different path then some football fans would have joined those of the Ibrox club in hoping for the best. Not a bit of it though, instead we have been treated to constant denial of previous wrongdoings, coupled with the ongoing and corrupt certainty that all will be restored, wrapped up in a very grubby and kind of sleazy arrogance. People are just sick of it. The real shame for us all is that the SFA are making sure that in a few years time we are back where we started and what lessons will have been learned – none that are positive.


  17. Greenock Jack says: (133)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:06 pm
    I hardly mention Celtic and the sirens go off, I reply with my views (not even controversial) and I’m persona non-grata.

    It’s what I’d expect from a Celtic messageboard.
    …………………………………………………………
    As strange as this might sound Jack….if it where a Celtic message board…which it clearly isn’t….you as a SEVCO fan would still be more than welcome to post your thoughts, ideas, opinions for and against any subject relating to Scottish football…and for the last 2 years…that has been centred around the industrial scale omnishambles at the SFA…Ibrox and the SMSM….

    As a Celtic fan I have criticised Celtic on this site many times and had debates with other Celtic fans who have disagreed…as well as fans from Aberdeen…Dundee Utd…Arbroath…Clyde…and others

    As a SEVCO fan you may feel you are trying to hold back the tide in your attempts to rationalise from a SEVCO angle…but step outside the box for a second…forget this involves SEVCO and the name of the players in the circus and you will maybe start to realise the reason why so many fans of so many clubs take the view that they do!

    Just like Scottish football this site will have a proportional represention of fans depending on their fan base….so please remember this before you decide to insult everyone with a sweeping generalisation.

    Ok…as you were!


  18. Resin
    To clarify, when I said “It’s what I’d expect from a Celtic messageboard”, it was making reference to several posts replying to a related question I posed on Celtic at the end of a longish post. These posts were from Celtic supporters and were generally defensive in tone and some made reference to me ‘deflecting’ , ‘being naughty’ etc.

    Later I referred to an underlying anger and the blog being next to impossible place for a Rangers supporter who didn’t stay ‘onside’. Here I’m referring to the blog in a more general basis that might include supporters of any team.

    It’s hard enough posting on here as a Rangers supporter anyway without such inaccuracies growing arms and legs.

    ICT, definately feel more disposed towards you, they are the top tier team I most want to do well.


  19. Should try posting as a Celtic fan on a Rangers messageboard.

    Within 2 secs you get Jimmy Saville type inferences and it degenerates from there.

    Debate? Not in a million years!


  20. WeeBully says: (13)
    November 3, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    “At every point and at every level, instead of being transparent, we have uncovered a process that obstructs the truth. If this can happen to a cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else?”

    Keith Vaz on the flawed cover-up regarding Andrew Mitchell.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And of course this is a strong argument why policemen should be allowed to wear veils in court.


  21. Auldheid
    Thank’s for a straightforward reply to the original question.
    I have only just noticed it.

    CG was a disaster in more ways than one.
    Green/MH knew what buttons to press but the support were taken in too easily.
    I could go into more detail with an alternative insight but it is late.

    It has to be said that Celtic have got their business model up and running at the right time to take advantage of the more straightforward access to the CL group stages, which in turn acts as a shop window. But as I referred to earlier it goes in cycles and one day it will come unstuck, that’s football.

    Seville are a good example.
    Great scouting system, success and lots of money from player sales but for whatever reason the highlife came to an end.


  22. slimshady61 says: (286)
    November 3, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    jimlarkin says: (593)
    November 3, 2013 at 11:52 am
    ——————————————

    China is one of the fastest growing areas in terms of promoting world football, it is natural that those in Scottish football who see an opportunity to advance their product would take this opportunity to do so. That the delegation includes representatives of the SPFL and the country’s leading club, one with a worldwide reputation, is hardly surprising. It would be more surprising if they weren’t there.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Yes let’s advance “product” all over the world including football. Cultural Imperialism is alive and well. Should the question not be to ask how we can help China move towards a democracy?


  23. GeronimosCadillac
    Yes let’s advance “product” all over the world including football. Cultural Imperialism is alive and well. Should the question not be to ask how we can help China move towards a democracy?

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
    When you have a political system that doesn’t represent or serve a large part of the population and the government try to shut up a newspaper (The Guardian) then are you in a position to advise on democracy ?


  24. Greenock Jack says: (135)
    November 4, 2013 at 12:49 am

    0

    0

    Rate This

    Auldheid
    Thank’s for a straightforward reply to the original question.

    CG was a disaster in more ways than one.
    Green/MH knew what buttons to press but the support were taken in too easily.
    I could go into more detail with an alternative insight but it is late.

    It has to be said that Celtic have got their business model up and running at the right time to take advantage of the more straightforward access to the CL group stages, which in turn acts as a shop window. But as I referred to earlier in football it goes in cycles and one day it will come unstuck, that’s football.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    But who would ever have imagined just how “unstuck” it would come for Rangers. By unstuck I’m assuming you mean the uncovering of cheating, financial doping, tax evasion and avoidance, corruption and manipulation of the governing body.


  25. It was deflection Jack. CFC finances were stable and stabilised before the last two season’ s CLbounty. There is no threat to CFC financially in any foreseeable timeframe. The context in which you threw in this observation was one of creating a financially stable Rangers. You also inplied that the season ticket discount was a direct consequence of the absence of Rangers – again another baseless deflection. CfC and the actions or otherwise of the board have been a frequent topic of discussion here. No defensiveness in replies just weariness at dealung with irrelevant ill informed


  26. Greenock Jack says: (136)
    November 4, 2013 at 12:58 am

    GeronimosCadillac
    Yes let’s advance “product” all over the world including football. Cultural Imperialism is alive and well. Should the question not be to ask how we can help China move towards a democracy?

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
    When you have a political system that doesn’t represent or serve a large part of the population and the government try to shut up a newspaper (The Guardian) then are you in a position to advise on democracy ?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I think you missed the point. I was having a pop at the concept of two Glasgow based football clubs selling “product ” in China. Surely the focus is to sell it in Scotland first because if we don’t it’s Armageddon.

    I wasn’t advising on democracy merely noting that the average Chinese person in Glasgow is more free than his counterpart in China. I suppose my question was – why are we so up the arse of a dictatorship and trying to “sell them product”.


  27. Greenock Jack says: (136)
    November 4, 2013 at 12:25 am

    3

    1

    Rate This

    ____________________________

    Later I referred to an underlying anger and the blog being next to impossible place for a Rangers supporter who didn’t stay ‘onside’. Here I’m referring to the blog in a more general basis that might include supporters of any team.

    It’s hard enough posting on here as a Rangers supporter anyway…

    _______________________________________

    I think the problem that is felt is that a great many fans in Scots football – and alot of people on this blog – can sympathise with the impact that events down Ibrox have on the fans there. We feel your pain. Really we do! We actually CAN imagine what you are going through, believe it or not.

    The problem is that there is absolutely no recognition of the impact that the cheating that went on prior to 2012 and the rule shifting and preferential treatment afforded to the club in Govan since has had on the rest of the sport, and the clubs we want to follow, from TRFC fans.
    Those trophies were not won fairly. That’s the bottom line. Financial doping is a self evident fact. The spirit and letter of the laws of the game were blatantly, consistently and sustainedly flouted with impunity. By just one club. No impartial observer could dispute it and no technicality can excuse it. The breathtaking and craven complicity of the regulatory authorities in the cover up of this only exacerbates the situation and makes it harder and harder to do the right thing subsequently. The game has been tainted. All because one club cheated persistently and a blind eye was turned by a regulatory authority that is still headed up by an individual who was actually instrumental in the instigation of the cheating.
    Everyone loses in that scenario – not just TRFC fans.
    Until this ingrained cheating is sorted out for everyones benefit and the good of the sport as a whole, then – while our individual clubs may prosper – the sport as a whole remains in crisis.

    We really want you – and other TRFC fans – to be part of the solution GJ. Rivalry not hatred. (loving the Highland derbies right now!)
    But first, you have to stop being part of the problem. And whether that comes about through facing up to the cheating that went on and putting your house in order, or simply by going out of existence (again) is fundamentally neither here nor there from where I sit. As long as it comes about.
    I know exactly how I would feel in your shoes.
    But how would you feel in mine?

    The much vaunted ‘fans revolt’ was not born out of any hatred of rangers. No one was kicking you while you were down!
    It was born out of an intolerance for cheating, from within paying fans, the lifeblood of the game. That is all.
    Don’t offer excuses. Just think about that.


  28. It seems to me that GJ is, and has been for some time, trying the old ‘divide and rule ‘ tactic of imperial times.

    He is trying to turn this blog into a misrepresentative, one-club ‘ hatred of ‘Rangers’ blog.

    In doing so, he does a great disservice ( nothing new in those who backed a corrupting element in Scottish Football) to tens of thousands of ordinary football supporters who cannot abide the fact that one club was cheating the arse off every other club WITH the connivance of the SFA, in breach of any kind of UEFA rules on ‘Fair Play’, and all with the open support of BBC Radio Scotland Sport and the sports hacks of the MSM.

    A level of support that has truly perverted the notion of sporting integrity.

    GJ knows damn well that this blog is not about Celtic and Celtic supporters.

    We know, and a number of posts tonight provide evidence, that It is about Scottish Football supporters saying ‘FFS! We have been shafted, and are being shafted still by the SFA’s failure to deal with a rogue club, now deceased, and a new club which ought not to exist. And we are fed up being lied to by the MSM.”
    Facts are chiels that winnae ding.

    One diseased, hubristic ‘majority share-holder’ of one diseased club was allowed to almost kill any kind of sporting competition in our game.

    His ‘successors’ in chicanery-whichever of the disreputable chancers gains control of the illegitimate
    new club- are continuing to destroy any hope that matters might improve.

    And oafs like Jackson, Keevins, and Young ( if they were selling insurance, stay well clear!) continue to support them by their mis-truths, half-truths, and, in one case at least, downright falsehoods.

    This is not a Celtic forum.

    We are concerned with nailing the corruption of the SFA, and the running dog lackeys of the MSM.


  29. Resin_lab_dog says: (214)
    November 4, 2013 at 1:50 am
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I’m not a Celtic fan But for the sake of Scotch society they should be allowed to die (again). Getting rid of one of the divisive insitutions in Scottish Society is no bad thing.


  30. MortonJock; you really don’t help yourself sometimes with some of your posts. But I also recognise the baiting that goes on sometimes. Let’s be clear, jack was a fan of RFC 1873 & is a fan of TRFC 2012, but that doesn’t mean he is responsible or answerable for every indiscretion committed by said entities. I’d say it is only natural he get defensive when folks start jumpin all over him because of his leanings.
    But Jack, do yourself a favour and stop coming away with such utter p!sh sometimes!
    I realise you only want what’s best for something you hold close to your heart. I’ve also, just this past week, had my eyes opened to how the human psyche works sometimes. A work colleague who is intelligent and by the very nature of his job, a calm, logical and rational guy shocked the life out of me by claiming Dave King was indeed fit & proper. The chap proceeded to become so animated there were bulbous veins popping up all over, he became a distinct colour of purple and I actually worried as to whether he was having some sort of seizure. I shan’t go into full details of the ensuing discussion but suffice to say he made a bit of a mammary-gland of himself. And this from what I would’ve termed one of the ‘decent’ fans without ‘that baggage’.

    I think you have interfaced the chap-stick with the tack perfectly GJ, the mis-information purveyed by the MSM has led a great deal of you up a long, dark vennel (guid scots word!) from which you are unable or perhaps unwilling to grasp fiscal reality or responsibility.
    And, as had been pointed out by more esteemed posters than myself, therein lies the problem. Those who wish not to see shall forever remain blind.

    Edit to add: Resin, that sums up exactly how a great many people feel IMO, GJ; that is the crux of the matter for all the ‘timmy, rangers haters’. Sort that an’ we’re all pals again…?!


  31. GeronimosCadillac says: (35)
    November 4, 2013 at 2:04 am
    6 0 Rate This
    Resin_lab_dog says: (214)
    November 4, 2013 at 1:50 am
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I’m not a Celtic fan But for the sake of Scotch society
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I’m partial to the odd drop myself, but let’s not make this a one drink forum.


  32. Broadswordcallingdannybhoy says: (120)
    November 3, 2013 at 11:57 pm
    22 0 Rate This

    “… Fans of other clubs were cheated out of trophies, cup runs and cup wins. But at a very basic level, somewhere a father and son missed out on the special feeling that’s only achieved when their little team beats the big team at a match they attended … It probably sounds maudlin daft, or a scene from Ripping Yarns, but it makes me angry …”
    —————–

    Now you may say, “I don’t have the forensic or analytical skills of some” but there’s still something of the “TSFM Laureates” about the above (shameless backslapping). Gordon Ottershaw of Barnstoneworth United couldn’t have put it better! Btw, turns out dear old George Harrison was a member of the Barnstoneworth United Supporters Club. And that actual teams playing in the period attire actually exist. Perhaps a Scottish chapter could be formed 🙂

    http://bufcsydney.com/history


  33. I have to smile when I read some posts almost suggesting Celtic’s business model will eventually fall off the lorry. It makes me smile as much as the suggestion Rangers are a cash cow waiting to happen. Well, I suppose they have been a bit of a cash cow for a small group of people, but that’s another story.

    I can only conclude that like everything with Celtic, they never get full credit in their own country for their achievements. The last Manager to point out the club is a model for others to follow was Frank De Boer. However, despite the lack of recognition in their own country Celtic continue to prosper, which says much.


  34. Maybe John Clarke is right that GJ is trying the old divide and rule trick. However GJ appears to have some easy targets in sight. Be it questioning the club’s financial model to whether or not Paul McStay ‘made it’, some folks from the East End seem awfully thin skinned at times.

    I recall John McEnroe saying he hated playing Borg because, unlike any other opponent, he had no idea if anything he did, by fair means or foul, upset him.

    I understand the need for each of us to uphold our individual club’s reputation but can I suggest we just take a breath and a chill pill from time to time?


  35. Malcolm Murray on talksport right now….a lot of talk and saying nowt…


  36. Pat Dougherty ‏@Patdougherty67 6m

    Rangers’ latest financial advisers face going bust after a £1.74million loss in the last 12 months. Daniel Stewart is their third nomad


  37. Did I just hear that correctly… that when he owned 25 percent of Man Utd shares…its value was greater than rangers (in liquidation)?

    WOW!


  38. Lord Wobbly on November 4, 2013 at 8:13 am
    Or up sh1t creek without a paddle!


  39. davythelotion says: (212)
    November 4, 2013 at 7:48 am
    5 0 i
    Rate This
    Apologies if already posted by nightshift…..
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/revealed-rangers-latest-financial-advisers-2673832
    And the dance to the edge of the world goes on…….
    __________________________________________________________________________________

    Now if you were in need of a commision, where exorbitant fees to advisors appear to be paid out with no questions asked, to help shore up your company’s loses – Who ya gonna call???

    All that having to deal with GSL-DK and calls to SARS, blocking the Requisitioners motions etc etc must cost a pretty penny. Stockbridge must be signing cheques to the NOMADs every day


  40. Lord Wobbly says: (956)

    November 4, 2013 at 8:13 am
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    A season’s hitch could send you to the depths of your disgrace

    Close to the edge, sold down the river?
    _______________________________________________

    Very Fragile anyway 🙂


  41. Here’s a thought.

    Just about every club in Scotland has the ability now to run their business without incurring large losses. Now much of that is because of criteria imposed by clubs bankers, but equally it’s a recognition that it’s just plain common sense. There is however one significant exception to this . Rangers have a business model that doesn’t work.

    Whether it was dependent on bank funding, or stuffing creditors or burning shareholders investment, nothing has proved sustainable. Nobody on Rangers side is putting forward a business plan which addresses this. The clamor from McCoist and Smith is for significant money to be spent , when back in the top tier. This money of course hasn’t to be earned , it has to be donated to the cause.

    This is a club who has learnt nothing. Their fans have learnt nothing either. Whilst their own club lurches from one crises to another, from one scandal to the next. There are those of their fans who refuse to debate in detail the issues in their disaster ridden shambles, yet expend the time to lecture us on the frailty of successful financial models used by those who are properly, expertly and ethically managed.

    And they wonder why they are ridiculed !!


  42. My calculations about when the money finally runs out at Ibrokes keeps altering due to pay outs and legal fees but I cannot see them solvent by March 2014.


  43. I’ve been interested to follow Jack’s (Greenock, not Irvine) thoughts on financial management in Scottish football and agree that it’s a subject that ought to be covered in a forum called Scottish Football Monitor. Jack’s posts have consistently focused on the sustainability of Celtic’s financial model in the absence of a ‘Rangers’. I happen to think that how Celtic manage their affairs is of interest, and they regularly publish accounts which are accessible from the club website for anyone who wants to scrutinise them. A consequence of this transparency may be that some people speculate that because the club’s bank has been devoured by Hedge Fund managers that Celtic will go bust due to ‘owing’ £m(insert whatever number pleases you here), but th einformation is in the public domain for Celtic supporters and others to see. I’m also interested in the financial models of Inverness and Ross County who are both supported by Sugar Daddies, Kilmarnock whose model I don’t quite get, Dundee and Dundee United where the structures have changed recently, Hearts – we all know about (I’m sure Allyjambo has lots more to offer on that story), Hibs – well run, probably, St Johnstone, St Mirren and Partick all run as tight ships, Aberdeen – is the main shareholder tooo fiscally sensible?

    Jack, can you help me understand any of this better?


  44. Sure enough, the share price chart of Daniel Stewart shows the long, slow decline in price, from about 2.5p to 0.41p.

    http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareChart.asp?sharechart=DAN

    People still try to swim in this tail end penny-share pool, hopeful of a rise; a glance at the Share Chat tells stories of expectation and gloom.

    At 0.91p: “Buys going through at above the ask, always a good sign”
    At 0.85p: “if it breaches the 1.16p resistance then it will shoot above 2p in no time”
    At 0.78p: “we’ve waited a long time for things to change,next week we”ll see a jump.”
    At 0.48p: “yeah,if t was mine ide be jumping off humber bridge m8.lol….”

    Do your own research 🙄


  45. For anybody wondering how spivs operate
    Ask yourself
    What would CW do if faced with this choice:
    1 Call the AGM as instructed by the court
    2 Delay the AGM and break the court order
    3 Put RIFC and RFC into immediate administration

    Which option gives most money and stays within the law?


  46. “I was having a pop at the concept of two Glasgow based football clubs selling “product ” in China. Surely the focus is to sell it in Scotland first because if we don’t it’s Armageddon.”

    One of the “Glasgow based football clubs”, Celtic, (I assume the other is Partick Thistle? We’re talking top flight right?) has reached saturation point in Scotland (or exceeded it if you listen to some), and has a strong fanbase in local neighbours Ireland.

    I personally have visited Celtic Supporters Clubs all over the world – USA, Europe & Asia – to watch matches whilst travelling and am delighted that they are not all Scots or Irish born (though of course the majority are). There is therefore a potential appetite and as we in Scotland appear to be able to do nothing more than ape England (premiership/ championship/ div1 etc) why not do the same as their top clubs and expand into the world’s most populous continent?

    The SPL teams have been doing sterling work in sorting out their own houses (some with the benefit of administration) – so I think they have done a decent job “selling product” domestically.

    As to the issues with dictatorships/democracy – that REALLY isn’t the job of a football team.


  47. The spivs will take every last pound then they will walk away in Spring to a chateau in France.


  48. Barcabhoy says: (261)
    November 4, 2013 at 9:17 am
    blu says: (412)
    November 4, 2013 at 9:26 am

    No disagreements there guys. We know who hasn’t learned any lessons from the past.
    However, while it is a bit of a distraction I do think GJ’s questions re Celtic and the possibility of not gaining access to the CL does throw up a bit of a dilema.

    As someone said last night all is rosey in the garden just now given last year’s last 16 and still being in with a shout just now. Financial prudence is easily sold in the current climate. However if there were to be a stumble in the premiership or in CL qualifying in the near future what would be done down Celtic way.

    For my point of view they should keep with the Moneyball project and reblance the books as required. The question is if that didn’t bring the desired and consistent results then how would the fans, who are used to and expect a level of success and performance, react?

    While fans of all the other clubs mentioned are used to not gaining very much other than a cup run and a possible victory at Hampden, it is a different scenario for Celtic fans. Most have know for years what running a tight ship is all about.

    It would be of interest to get comments from Bhoys on here, who obviously give great thought to such matters, if they believe the wider fan base has or will be able to cope with the reality of remaining part of Scottish Football for the short to medium term.

    My hope is that like when the Tartan Army promoted an image to be the exact opposite from English hooligans, Celtic fans will want to openly admit they have sound financial planning and reasonable expectations in the forefront of their minds but does that go for the whole fan base?


  49. Link to the – alan Brazil ‘interview’ of Malcolm Murray !

    Ironically, MM was winding up AB about where Daniel Stewart’s offices are – right across the road, from where you (alan Brazil) have been know to catch a Bus!!
    [as opposed to staggering along the road]?

    Alan Brazil getting his own back…lot of big games this week…Chelsea v Shake, Ajax v Celtic, Rangers* v Dunfermline !!

    http://talksport.com/football/exclusive-murray-ashley-unlikely-take-over-rangers-13110466700?


  50. jimlarkin says: (595)
    November 4, 2013 at 10:26 am

    Should say shalke instead of SHAKE – FFS, can the mods not get a better edit function?

    What’s wrong with the one we have, Jim?

    [EDIT] Not saying that as a ‘mod’ by the way, just as a user


  51. Big Pink says: (137)
    November 4, 2013 at 9:02 am

    Lord Wobbly says: (956)
    November 4, 2013 at 8:13 am
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    A season’s hitch could send you to the depths of your disgrace

    Close to the edge, sold down the river?
    _______________________________________________

    Very Fragile anyway
    ——
    … and the distance of the runaround is debatable, but appears to be reasonably long.


  52. Barca, as a Celtic fan (who now refuses to give anymore money to Celtic or other football related firms eg, sky, bt sport etc, because Celtic never questioned The Lord Numpty Smythe report or the UEFA licence 2011 travesty, I agree that Celtic should continue to run a tight ship.
    John park should be given a long long term contract and I reckon you are correct in that a possible casualty in the near future could be a failure to reach the CL group stages, but Celtic will continue regardless, however I reckon change will come reasonably soon to the European competitions because all leagues are having a continued malaise creeping in because the same teams are winning their respective leagues more often than not – Barcelona, bayern Munich, juventus, steau Bucharest etc and also the same in the champions league
    – Barcelona, bayern Munich, Manure, chelski, Barcelona, bayern Munich, manure, chelski blah blah blah.

    Champions league getting boring isn’t it !

    Maybe the Much heralded FFP will change that but I won’t hold my breath because if the boat starts to be rocked then the first item to be chucked overboard to save the boat will be sporting integrity – a la SFA and Italian football governing body eg juventus…


  53. torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says: (1108)
    November 4, 2013 at 8:12 am
    Pat Dougherty ‏@Patdougherty67 6m

    Rangers’ latest financial advisers face going bust after a £1.74million loss in the last 12 months. Daniel Stewart is their third nomad
    ——————————————————————————————————————————-
    Nae problems, I’m sure Keevins will give us a detailed financial breakdown on radio tonight.

    Then again, Charlie may have instructed the NOMAD to go into admin and come back as Daniel Stewart 5088.


  54. Wow, a lot to catch up on even for a non old firmer! We do exist jack.

    A couple of titbits if I may. Comments in brackets are mine – feel free to come back on my specific comments but to be fair you have previously at length IIRC. More interested in the bit below.

    Greenock Jack says: (136)
    November 4, 2013 at 12:49 am

    CG was a disaster in more ways than one. (Agreed – does SDM shoulder any blame for this?)
    Green/MH knew what buttons to press but the support were taken in too easily. (Agreed – maybe they could have read this blog more? Or expected the MSM to keep them better informed?))
    I could go into more detail with an alternative insight but it is late. (Haud the bus!!!)
    =====================================
    Please please drop all the co-op bank, the seville subtleties (I think that might have been blu actually), the guaranteed league title chit chat and the references to some wondrous business plan hatched in the last 24 months by a clumpany that was bought over in the mid 90’s. It may not be deliberate deflection but I can assure you it comes over as such.

    But you can’t throw in a wee gem like the one above and not elaborate. Shirley.

    Also, in case you do have an unhealthy interest in the other teams’ business plans, thinking of your reference to the FD’s sleep quality I think the the most important comment made in replies to you (at you 😉 ) was this. Apologies, I forgot the reference but the quote was,

    “The only hope for Sevco is that Celtic’s ambitions are dragged down to a level that Sevco can compete with.”

    As a non OF fan that’s the hope I cling to. History shows us the previous business models at Ibrox and CFC were “to do just better than they did.” I don’t believe Jock Stein was told in 67 go and win the European cup. I don’t believe the barcelona boys (I’m sorry, I don’t recall the Gers manager that day – maybe its just the hoops lads mention there’s a bit more 😆 😆 😆 ) were told to win in Europe. I do believe they were openly told beat them and yer fine, consistently come second (to them) and yer oot. Everything else is a bonus. I suspect that this may have changed incidentally when SDM decided he wanted to win in Europe and LTSB realised they had to win in europe.

    To go back to the original point though yes the FD will sleep easier with a guaranteed league and CFL entrance. But perversely Neil Lennon probably won’t, because player sales and a general downgrading (and lets be clear I am in full agreement that that has to happen to balance the books) is always just a poor draw round the corner. Dominance never provokes a desire to to push on. Just to remain dominant. Just.


  55. With regard to Barca’s last post re Celtic’s Moneyball strategy, the REALITY & not the Fantasy, means there is no other way.

    For big clubs in small leagues, who don’t have access to large scale media deals like Sky TV and the EPL and the unlikely scenario of an invasion of oil rich Arabs, ploughing money into the club,the only way is to invest in young players,preferably Scottish or otherwise, develop them and sell them on.

    Now this does cause problems, I was involved in a heated Twitter debate on Sat night, because a number of my fellow supporters were indignant that a striker worth at least £5m should have been bought and how dare Dundee Utd come to Paradise and play well. And as I tried to explain patiently, the days of Celtic spending £5m on any player are gone, certainly in the short to medium term.

    So, even amongst the realistic supporters of Celtic, one will always find a core who believe spending money is the solution, even though that money doesn’t exist….a bit like my Wife with her credit card 🙄

    The only gamechanger to this, in my view, is some kind of European league system of midweek European football with domestic games at the weekend. I know it’s been spoken of many times, but I still feel it’s a long way off, because countries like Scotland, Holland,Portugal, Austria etc who would want this change are very much seen, as the poor relations of Europe, in comparison to the big 5 leagues, which have complete hegemony and domination of the Champions League and guard its’ associated revenues zealously.

    In summary, continue and enlarge the Moneyball strategy. Invest any and all profits on the development of young players, increase scouting worldwide, especially in North & South America and ensure that the club spends only what it can afford and live within our means!


  56. Jim Larkin

    however I reckon change will come reasonably soon to the European competitions because all leagues are having a continued malaise creeping in because the same teams are winning their respective leagues more often than not – Barcelona, bayern Munich, juventus, steau Bucharest etc and also the same in the champions league
    ===============
    I’m slowly coming to this opinion as well. I can’t see why you would fire a successful IPO up the wall in the way sevco have (as opposed to a more calculated approach) unless you thought something else would happen to bail you out half way through. It almost appears like a strategy to get back to the top division at any cost even if you arrive there homeless, potless and badly in need of a fiscal rinsing (of debt). I accept the spivs had a short term gain to make. I have also long been of the opinion that the blazers and brogues had a long term plan in the background (albeit we’re now on version 6.5). I am increasingly of the opinion that said long term plan, without another massive hand up such as a euro restructure, wasn’t of a particularly robust nature.


  57. Last one, then I really must do some work!

    Daniel Stewart

    Pre administration Interview

    “…and just the last question lads before we make our decision, can we safely assume that none of your large debtors are likely to default on their bill?……Anyone going to answer?……….Anyone at all?”


  58. Change in the smaller leagues’ structures across Europe will come – probably within 5 years. Australia and NZ already have a joint league, Russia & Ukraine are soon to trial similar. Whatever that change looks like, Celtic will be part of it. Rangers too if they are solvent & competitive.

    Celtic’s current domestic dominance plus CL money with the fall back position of selling “moneyball” players is good enough to last until then.

    Any pan Euro league would have much larger TV money & sponsorships attached. This would compensate for some big sides not making the CL or even the Europa league (although that may be ditched to accommodate a wider “domestic” Euro league).

    UEFA are driven by cash. The Europa League is not a success in cash terms for clubs or UEFA. If UEFA can make more money from a new pan Euro league structure, then it will happen.

    Change is the only constant. The Fairs Cup, Cup Winners Cup, the UEFA Cup have all gone, the straight k/o format of the European Cup is a distant memory, the CL used to have 2 group stages.

    Football is big business. Big business demands growth through either new markets or product innovation. The new markets bit is largely done. Innovation is next.

    Celtic v PSV, Rangers v Anderlecht or similar every other week? Now that’s worth having a season ticket to see. Add in play offs for entry from domestic leagues, Motherwell v Braga? Aberdeen v Elfsborg? DUFC v Rapid Vienna?

    I can’t wait.


  59. Most of those clubs you mention have credit facilities to function

    Most, but not all


  60. Smugas says: (482)
    November 4, 2013 at 10:49 am

    Greenock Jack says: (136)
    November 4, 2013 at 12:49 am

    EDIT

    Please please drop all the co-op bank, the seville subtleties (I think that might have been blu actually),

    I’m not too sure what you mean by the above Smugas but I my point was, and remains, that the financial workings of the Scottish Premiership clubs (and indeed all SPFL clubs) should be of interest to a site calling itself The Scottish Football Monitor. I’ve referenced Celtic’s accounts on here a couple of times because they consistently publish them on time and they’re readily available for scrutiny. It’s fair comment to observe that some will run with nonsensical interpretations of these because it suits their desperate tit-for tat agenda – e.g. extrapolating Celtic meltdown from the Co-op Bank’s problems, but that was quickly seen for what it was.

    How much do we know of the finances of the other clubs in the Premiership? Should we know more?

    The RFC/Sevco 5088/Sevco Scotland/RIFC/TRFC and the administration and governance of that situation are of course very important matters that merit examination and dissection by the bampots, but there’s more to Scottish football than one tax dodging team whose Board members (or would-be Board members) and a large number of fans continue to display delusional supremacist attitudes. That’s their look-out – it led to them being where they are.


  61. Blu,

    Apologies. Checked back and the seville reference was GJ’s not yours. Your post caught my eye purely because in summarising the other clubs you appeared to dwell on the negatives – the co-op bit, that the highlands are awash with sugar daddies, that the dundee clubs are changing and then only a passing reference to the ones that amazingly are actually debt free etc etc – which, on a skim read, appeared to tie in with a general challenge of deflection being bandied about last night. Thank you for clarifying. Apologies again.


  62. Smugas at 10:49
    CG was a disaster in more ways than one. (Agreed – does SDM shoulder any blame for this?)
    Green/MH knew what buttons to press but the support were taken in too easily. (Agreed – maybe they could have read this blog more? Or expected the MSM to keep them better informed?))
    I could go into more detail with an alternative insight but it is late. (Haud the bus!!!)

    Please please drop all the co-op bank, the seville subtleties (I think that might have been blu actually), the guaranteed league title chit chat and the references to some wondrous business plan hatched in the last 24 months by a clumpany that was bought over in the mid 90′s. It may not be deliberate deflection but I can assure you it comes over as such.
    ——————————————————————————————-

    1. No SDM and the whole recent shooting match doesn’t happen. Huge portion of blame.
    2. I don’t know of a balanced source of information. Better to look at various angles and make up your own mind. Fair to say, an ongoing abject failure. There are interesting arguments behind this re. the psychology, spin employed and the effect of enviroment.
    3. Wrong, I have never spoke or written about Co-op bank in my puff, until now.
    4. Seville FC, I briefly mentioned their business model last night. I didn’t realise it wasn’t allowed, sorry.
    5. ‘Guaranteed title chit chat’: Again if it isn’t allowed, sorry. Only you mention it in your last paragraph (not included above).

    Underlying anger at the general situation rather than attention to detail and a willingness to truly debate drives the reaction to any of my posts that are perceived to be ‘deflecting’ or whatever.

    I don’t believe I can change this, it’s just how it is and things have developed.
    This isn’t really a place for a Rangers supporter to engage unless he says what people want to hear.

    I understand the reasons why this has developed and it’s something that will fester on both sides.
    Unfortunately, I can’t see this having a happy ending for anyone and that brings me back to SDM, he will have been one of the main figures to blame.

    That said there have been many strands to this and not all have been debated here.


  63. Smugas says: (484)
    November 4, 2013 at 11:48 am
    =============================
    Thanks for taking the time to review and the swift response. I’d welcome Jack coming back with an answer to the question now and broadening his focus beyond ‘Them’ and ‘Us’.


  64. To Smugas,

    GJ
    The post where I mention Seville FC is below, it was a reply to Auldheid.
    I repost to illustrate exactly what I said and defend myself, rather than look for a discussion on it.
    ————————————————————————————————————

    It has to be said that Celtic have got their business model up and running at the right time to take advantage of the more straightforward access to the CL group stages, which in turn acts as a shop window. But as I referred to earlier it goes in cycles and one day it will come unstuck, that’s football.

    Seville are a good example.
    Great scouting system, success and lots of money from player sales but for whatever reason the highlife came to an end.


  65. Blu
    Below is the discussion I had with Auldheid yesterday where the final sentence began an unecessary stooshy.
    ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    ///////////////////////////////////

    Auldheid
    How about reducing the supporter’s expectation levels because no one can meet the cost of fuelling them ?
    ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    GJ
    I’d agree with that.
    A realistic vision needs to be layed out and bought into.

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    Auldheid
    I made the same point to a well known blogger on Rangers media in terms of matching income and expenditure. His response was on the lines of “well ok, but gates will drop”.

    I said they probably would but it was that or no Rangers in any form to follow. That was a few months ago, when the idea would have been dismissed.

    I think the emerging reality will start to change minds, a prequisite for addressing the problem.

    ////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    GJ
    Time to do it was at the beginning of last season, when with all due respect, the inevitable teething problems wouldn’t have stopped the club getting promotion. However the spivs are only interested in things that will lead to them making more money in the short term.

    You have to sell it as a positive and I think you might be surprised at how many of the support would see the need for and buy into a new model. Therafter, you have to make it work in reasonably quicktime and that takes you into the unpredictable world of football. Is there a risk of supporters losing patience ? Of course.

    I see the actual DK vision as being investment levels that will give Rangers the opportunity to become competitive again in the SPFL1 (short-term) and for infrastructure to be put in place so as the club can get to a sustainable level of income & expenditure as soon as possible.

    Theory is easy and the problem with planning business matters in football is the unpredictable, ie. the results, with CL qualifiers being the best current example. Can I ask you what happens to the Celtic business model if you don’t qualify for the CL group stages (shop window) in the next two seasons ?

    ////////////////////////////////////////////


  66. Recent Share Trades for Rangers Int (RFC)
    DateTimeTrade PrcVolumeBuy/SellBidAskValue
    04-Nov-1311:01:5748.3010,000Sell* 48.0049.004,830O

    04-Nov-1309:26:5548.001,428Sell* 48.0049.00685.44O

    04-Nov-1308:05:4348.00438Sell* 48.0049.00210.24O

    04-Nov-1308:00:4548.30110Sell* 48.0049.0053.13O

    01-Nov-1314:21:5348.331,000Sell* 48.0049.00483.30O

    01-Nov-1313:28:4948.355,000Sell* 48.0049.002,418O

    01-Nov-1313:27:1548.004,000Sell* 48.0049.001,920O

    01-Nov-1312:55:5248.35100Sell* 48.0049.0048.35O

    01-Nov-1311:40:2448.35137Sell* 48.0049.0066.24O

    01-Nov-1311:32:4548.00552Sell* 48.0049.00264.96O

    01-Nov-1309:52:3948.34300Sell* 48.0049.00145.02O

    01-Nov-1308:42:4848.34100Sell* 48.0049.0048.34O

    01-Nov-1308:38:5148.34181Sell* 48.0049.0087.50O

    31-Oct-1314:17:0248.351,000Sell* 48.0049.00483.50O

    31-Oct-1313:54:0748.3516Sell* 48.0049.007.74O

    Seems to be – only selling recently, yet the price is ‘holding’ up well ?


  67. David Low on Twitter just there showing a link which suggests the Worthington Group are trying to raise cash with the implication of pressing ahead with their claim to the assets.

    Just curious, wondering if anyone can make things clearer. Is it in Whyte’s interest to push ahead with this now ? Has he got wind that admin is just round the corner ? Or is he better just sitting tight ? I was always of the assumption he was sat there with the trump card and he could play it at anytime ?


  68. Eeramacaroonbar
    I’m sure he’s there in the background but winning an 8 line football coupon is a dawdle compared to second guessing CW.


  69. Re the possibility of Euro Leagues

    Never mind Moneyball, what about Rollerball. The original 1975 film was set in 2018 where corporations ruled the world. Football and the World Cup was a thing of the past and Rollerball was the main sport with teams being associated with a city that had corporate responsibility for Energy and the like.

    While Fifa still has a hold over the footballing world and does try and promote the ethos of a pyramid system the game, especially in Europe, has been become dominated by the ‘big players’ and everything has been done to allow them to compete against each other in the CL.

    IMHO the potential disruption of the World Cup in Qatar could be the final straw where the big clubs say ‘Sod this for a game of soldiers’ and just pull out their charges out of international football. If they wanted to set up their own a Euro league in the same way the EPL was established then they could and I can’t see what Fifa/Uefa could do to stop them. The money men behind the sponsors and advertisers wouldn’t give a hoot if Fifa/Uefa were in control, as long as they could do a deal.


  70. Greenock Jack says: (139)
    November 4, 2013 at 12:11 pm
    Blu
    Below is the discussion I had with Auldheid yesterday where the final sentence began an unecessary stooshy.
    =============================================
    Theory is easy and the problem with planning business matters in football is the unpredictable, ie. the results, with CL qualifiers being the best current example. Can I ask you what happens to the Celtic business model if you don’t qualify for the CL group stages (shop window) in the next two seasons ?
    ===============================================================================

    Thanks Jack, as noted earlier I happen to believe that Scottish football finaces merit wider discussion, but I’m sure on re-reading the above you can see why people might think that it was simply deflection?

Comments are closed.