Bonkers OCNC Thread


RyanGosling says: June 20, 2014 at 12:27 am My question was…do …

Comment on Bonkers OCNC Thread by Amazingless.

RyanGosling says:
June 20, 2014 at 12:27 am

My question was…do any posters here refer to “Rangers” simply as Rangers, or does everyone make some distinction in the name.


I call your club “Rangers” without (conversational) qualification, Ryan, and I noticed the brief return to the (gloriously circular) discussion about the “correct” nomenclature for the team playing out of Ibrox.

Amongst other things (and this is now directed towards anyone who…well, isn’t Ryan, I suppose), it was (broadly) suggested by a range of contributors that those of us who refer to this club as “Rangers” were falling into a trap, that our actions were “regrettable” and that we (unwittingly or otherwise) give succour to The Big Lie through our choice of words. (The Big Lie, for the uninitiated and my unborn son, being that Rangers Football Club didn’t die – which, of course, it did.)

Some of us watched the attempt to separate the company from the club with a fascinated suspicion that morphed towards outright incredulity – a transcending mixture of excited disbelief and borderline arousal. Is it at all possible, we wondered with joy, that people might actually be so catastrophically self-deluded? The answer, of course, is Yes – emphatically so. (Humans? What are they like?)

However, two things:

First, a technicality: The word “Rangers” seems a perfectly acceptable diminutive of the words “The Rangers Football Club” – and, as such, not immediately or necessarily any more offensive (unless you’re actively trying to find a reason to take offence, of course – and there’s a lot of it about) than abbreviating “Manchester United”, say, to “Man U”.

And, contrary to the apparent fears of so many, whilst using this “Rangers” diminutive, it remains possible that our cognitive facilities may continue to function otherwise unimpaired: to wit, we may use this term whilst retaining both a clear conception of the newborn entity and a clear memory that the word “Rangers” was ascribed to the dead entity. Multi-tasking. It’s a gift.

Second, fans of this club call it “Rangers” and that’s just fine by me – who am I, after all, to instruct them to behave otherwise? As a general (and explicitly personal) rule – and there are limits, of course – it feels reasonable and natural to afford people the courtesy of addressing them by the name(s) they call themselves.

Which, depressingly, may beg the question: If the roles were reversed, might we expect the same courtesy (or respect) in return? Hardly, but so what? If we see someone behave abysmally, or suspect that they might behave abysmally at some unspecified point in the future, we’re under no pressing obligation to behave abysmally ourselves. That way lies a race to the bottom; a morally squalid dead-end. (Or Glasgow, as some might have it…and they would of course be wrong, Your Honour.)

None of this is to suggest that referring to Rangers as “Sevco” or “TRFC” (or whatever) is either “wrong” or cause for rueful regret. On the contrary, it remains perfectly possible for people to understand and respect (and entirely agree with) this approach whilst choosing something quite different for themselves. And where’s the problem with that? Why should this difference be viewed as “regrettable”, “[un]seemly” or “[im]proper”? (I tell you what, but for a white, middle-class chap, it feels terrifically exciting to be able to pass myself off as a put upon victim for once. I can see why so many are at it.)

If we call this club “Rangers” we propagate (and/or buy into) The Big Lie? Hmm. Some of us may feel differently. Don’t fall for The Big Lie? I didn’t. We won’t. But please be careful lest you fall into the trap of believing yourselves somehow qualified to (automatically) judge right from wrong in this instance.

True, you may not like or agree with these reasons for calling Rangers “Rangers”, which is perfectly fair enough – you will be highly qualified, after all, in assessing your own likes, leanings, instincts and outlooks. What you necessarily lack, however, is the authority to definitively pronounce on the likes, leanings, instincts and outlooks of others.

(Forgive the following diversion, please, but glancing back at what I’ve already written and rather dreading what on earth I may write next, I anticipate it to be prudent:

Although I’m writing this here (on TSFM); although I may occasionally reference comments [you] made here; although it may appear as if a charge is being laid directly at your door and that your variable motives, actions or intentions are being miscontextualised and/or mischaracterised, the setting and what goes on here is broadly immaterial to the nature of this lament and in no way constitute its sole or particularly intended target.

But those of us who are not Rangers fans and yet nevertheless call Rangers “Rangers” – and we’re a motley bunch, I’m betting, generally living in the shadows, skulking, badly in need of a self-help group where we might talk and share with fellow sufferers – find ourselves frequently assailed from the (internetty) sidelines, subjectively declaimed as being categorically in error and as part of the problem itself.

I lose track of the times I’ve seen people (or been that person) variously hauled-up, chastised, “educated”, vilified and dismissed for calling Rangers “Rangers”. It’s internet-wide, not TSFM-specific, is all I’m trying to say, and it’s becoming quite exhausting. At least here, on TSFM, we may find ourselves being disemboweled with civility. It feels like a safe-haven, comparatively, when you see what’s out there. The horror. The horror.)

Those who legitimately choose not to call Rangers “Rangers” have correspondingly never once shown themselves to be in a position to legitimately dictate these terms to others. Some may have lost sight of this simple fact, as well as misappropriating Descartes along the way, perhaps: I think this; therefore I’m right.

They also (sometimes) give the unfortunate impression of seeing themselves as having a monopoly on the moral outrage provoked by the corruption and cheating at Ibrox. They don’t. Some of us simply choose not to wear it on our sleeves, day in, day out, day in…

To suggest that our actions are therefore misguided or actively help propagate The Big Lie is maybe a little careless, to put it as politely as possible.

Besides, some may also simply have an inherent disinclination to poke angry bears with what might occasionally feel like a rather clumsy and obvious stick. I don’t know.

But in good faith, good people, you run the risk of overestimating your own authority whilst underestimating the intelligence of others. Gonnae no dae that?

Recent Comments by Amazingless

The Vice Closes
The Dam is leaking.


Well done and thank you to those Hibernian fans. More of this, please.
At a guess, they will feel just as sorely let down, marginalised and dismissed by Rod Petrie as the seeming majority of Aberdeen fans (online) seem to feel about Stewart Milne and his latest mouth-disasters.
Petrie and Milne have at least shown their colours (blue all the way, it seems), and may be judged accordingly. And it now becomes possible to judge both men as being part of the problem, not part of the solution.

In asking us to look away from those years of manifest cheating, they simply disgrace  themselves. 
This may be fondly forgiving self-delusion, nothing more, but it seems impossible to imagine that Aberdeen’s former vice-chairman, Chris Anderson, would have debased himself or his club this way.

The Vice Closes
Of course people will accuse anyone who is a Celtic fan, or an Aberdeen fan, or a Dundee United fan (clubs whose rivalry with Rangers is keenest) of partisanship in this affair. That is mere deflection and bears no scrutiny whatsoever.” (Big Pink)
Trying to discredit an argument based on the football team of the complainant is an abundantly dishonourable thing to do. And trying to reduce this epic scandal to a tiff between excitable fans is both shameful and maddening.
Forgive me for quoting myself, a disgusting habit, but…
On the 13th July, 2012 (we were so young), I splurged the following in the comment section of an Alex Thompson (Channel 4) article (please excuse the length, have tried to shorten it slightly):
Thank you for taking a professional interest in the governance of Scottish football and for helping to somewhat alleviate the sense of powerlessness the gobsmacked fans may feel in the face of (football) administrators who give every impression of being corrupt – or seriously conflicted – and a national press that seems incapable or unwilling to trouble itself with facts, investigative toil or the most basic levels of morality.
I’m not sure it’s possible to articulate how shocking and depressing it is to see members of the Scottish press (and certain elements of the footballing fraternity) openly sneer at the concept of integrity (as professed and longed for by a seemingly overwhelming majority of fans).  
They actively disdain the desire to see the rules implemented fairly, as if the very notion itself is contemptible – borne of nothing more than a bitterly vengeful desire to see a particular football club (Rangers) punished and humiliated. 
And yet if this were my own club, Aberdeen, I would feel exactly the same. In fact, I should probably feel even greater intransigence, as the betrayal would feel more personal, more acutely close to home.
We are asked, in a sneeringly dismissive manner, “Ah, but would you still like to see “Rangers” kicked out of the game if it meant the financial demise of your own club?” 
The answer to this, of course, is Yes, emphatically so, for how could I ever support a team that depended on ethically distressed cheats to stay afloat? 
Why can they not see this? Why can they not fathom that our moral disgust is soul-deep and real?
…In the course of your investigations you shine an uncomfortable light on aspects of Scottish society (and modern day western societies at large) that fairly sicken the soul.  
This microcosm of the terrible (global) greeds that seem to propel people towards stark immorality and the self-serving and faintly – okay, often overtly – psychopathic lack of empathy they display in pursuing their goals may begin to feel like a rampaging cancer in our collective midst.
This disease might be incurable, unfortunately, although your journalistic morphine may occasionally ease our pain.  Thank you.
So there we are.
Yes, I know, it’s all a bit wordy and very probably a bit too w*nky for some, sorry. But nothing’s really changed. 
This is barely about Rangers or football, if it ever was to begin with. It’s about cheating, corruption and greed (amongst many other things).
And if someone comes out against cheating, corruption and greed, how can we ever care what football team they support? It bears no relevance to the matters at hand.
Keep up the good work, people.  (And Hello to AllyJambo. Just because.)
Oh, there’s more, sorry. Not directly connected to the above, but:
I’ve always wanted Scottish teams to do well in Europe. 

In various arguments/discussion I’ve had on an Aberdeen forum, this view has never been popular, especially whilst I’m wishing Celtic well. It’s not that I’d ever watch any game not involving Aberdeen, just that I want all Scottish teams to succeed in Europe. 
These same well-wishes always applied to Rangers, as well, before they died. 
I was once asked (paraphrasing), “But would you even support Rangers in Europe now, after all that’s happened?” 
As I didn’t really know the answer to this question (going against a Scottish team in Europe is simply not the way I’ve been brought up), I said I’d just have to wait and see how I felt if and when it happened.
Well, I found out how I felt when the Progrès Niederkorn score flashed across the screen of my telly. I laughed. I mean, really, really, laughed. It felt delightful, like a release of pressure.
It’s just that in their present incarnation, I see this club not so much as a Scottish team, more a vessel of unrepentant cheats.
WATP: With Abundant Thanks, Progrès
(Apologies to all decent Rangers fans looking in.)

Two wrongs and a right
Big Pink:
The problem for a weegie moderating an AFC forum posting is simply one of language
I inferred the meaning of the word ‘jiggy’ – subsequently it appears correctly. However we are a family forum, so less with the jiggy.
Google was my friend for some other definitions – which creative and colourful as they may have been, had to be left on the cutting room floor
Sorry, I didn’t see your comment until I’d posted my second comment (above).  There will be no more Jiggy.
For what it’s worth, in my own editing and selection of the comments (applied before submitting them here), it was the language (and personalised abuse) towards Stewart Milne that proved more problematic than anything else. Industrial.

Two wrongs and a right
ElCapitano2013: 8th December 2015 3:22 pm:

The comments on that AFC forum are brilliant….from farmyard animals to the Yorkshire Ripper in a few lines. 
Although, I am slightly concerned about the person who referred to thinking about getting jiggy with the farmyard animals….not the first comparsion that would automatically spring to mind. Given the forum, was he, perchance, thinking about a certain type of woolly farmyard animal? 
I’ll get ma sheepskin…

Glad you liked them, ElCapitano, I enjoyed reading them, too.
Regrettably, I had already responded on the Aberdeen forum to the comment you mention before reading your take on things here.  And so, to recap and clarify, the exchange on the Aberdeen forum now reads:

InversneckieDob: That’s like wanting to get jiggy with farmyard animals. A distasteful thought, but if, for some bizarre reason, you think it, you sure as f*ck dinna say it out loud.
Amazingless: I lose count of the dates I ruined by failing to remember this simple truth.
I hope this helps clear matters up and gives you some insight into the righteous calibre of the human beings over there. (All further enquires should be directed to the police.)

Two wrongs and a right
Rangers fans: In the following comments taken from an Aberdeen fan site, I’ve edited out the most colourful references to your club, but you may still find some of it too partisan; not suited to these pages – which is fair enough. Fan sites are rarely impartial.

Moderators: I hope it passes the test. The swear words retained feel valid; an authentic form of emphasis.  A couple of borderline analogies may make you twitch momentarily, however.

Not entirely, but I took some references out and passed it fit and proper 🙂

Everyone: here is a selection of comments from the Aberdeen fan forum I darken. An imperfect survey, but surely enough to give pause for those who insist there is no appetite – except from a few meddlesome, bitter Celtic fans – for justice and change. To date, the disappointment and or revulsion at Stewart Milne’s comments has been unanimous, as evidenced below:

“Disgusted with the club for this.”

“…our chairman…speaks only for his own narrow minded, backward thinking self.
 Thank god for the Sir Turnbull Hutton’s of this world. RIP min, I wish you had been ours.”

“Does anyone agree with him or know anyone that does?”

“Well Stewarty, I for one would prefer teams that didn’t cheat and avoid paying taxes in the top league than so called “Top sides”.
 All Stewarty can see is the pound signs. What a sad but predictable statement by our chairman.”

“It’s hugely embarrassing what Milne has said, and I for one feel that he can’t continue in his role anymore…to come away with a statement like that shows how clearly detached from our support (and every other clubs support) he is. I think as a fanbase, we need a voice through which we can express how much we disagree with his statement. We need to put pressure on him to resign.
His comments are fully unacceptable.”

“To say I am disappointed is an understatement, giving the line of time to move on and start to build the game…Rubbish, this can only be done if we are rid of cheats…Massive own goal from Milne.”

“Perhaps someone should remind Mr Milne that in all the years that Rangers cheated, we didn’t benefit from it. There was no competition because the Glasgow 2 were wrapping up everything, while one blatantly gained advantage by cheating.
The statement is embarrassing and of the same mind-set as Doncaster and Regan… and that alone is a worry.”

 “…the modern Scottish football fan is relishing the game at the moment, with different winners of the Scottish cup, the smaller scale clubs getting stronger and stronger plus of course a resurgent Aberdeen.
 Fans…don’t care about them any more, and they certainly don’t care about us when they talk about leaving the spfl at every opportunity. It’s not the supporters who need to move on, Mr Milne, it is you and your narrow view of how Scottish football used to be and where it is now; supporters adapt, clubs adapt and in many cases they are in better shape than they have been in years. Please stay as chairman, but by god man you need to listen to the punters.”

“Does he think the passage of time has made us forget and forgive? Time you had a reality check Stuarty my lad or you are going to have the people who are really important to the club on your back, you know, the ones who pay their cash…”

“I have never been so angry and disappointed at someone connected to my club…Stewart Milne, I have been involved with the Dons a lot longer than you and you do not talk for me. Scottish football was cheated. I was cheated. Every single fan at all clubs were cheated. How dare you tell me to move on.”

“Wanting the Govan [] in the top league because they bring in some money is like wanting the Yorkshire Ripper released because he’s handy with a hammer, and your new Ikea coffin needs nailed together. WTF was Milne thinking?”

“Yet another spectacular PR own goal from [Milne]. 
WTF was he thinking?

“The time to move on will be when Rangers fc are held to account and made to pay for all their cheating and not before. Distasteful though it may be, proper, though reluctant acceptance of the newco in our midst will come only after the trophies illegally gained by the oldco through cheating are removed from the Record books.
Having said that, I would prefer them to disappear completely.”

“Dear Mr Milne, you do not speak for the majority of Aberdeen fans, who respect and demand an honest and transparent sport. And you certainly don’t speak for me. Please leave.”

“In competitive sport, to some extent your rivals can only prosper at your expense. If you let your rivals prosper at your expense by bullying and cheating because you fear the loss of income if you don’t, it’s no longer sport. If you do so in the teeth of the anger and contempt of the fans whose interests you are there to represent, you are not fit for purpose.”

“Forget sportsmanship, integrity and competitiveness, it’s big gates and TV that he clearly operates on and it is very worrying to see how out of touch he is with not only the fans, but the reality of the situation. Having the same mindset as Regan and Doncaster is only going to be detrimental to the future of the club. It sounds like I’m being extreme, but how can the club move in the direction the fans long desire it to, when our own chairman shares the view that the progress and changes we desire, aren’t the way forward, but rather a return to the fake good old days is the future? I have NO desire and I mean NO desire to ever see that shower of shite at Pittodrie again. Milne has ruined my illusion that the club shared the same thoughts as most fans did and I really can’t see how this relationship can work going forward.”

“What a [] plonker our chairman is. Almost 3 years of goodwill built up for him and he goes and shatters that goodwill in a couple of seconds with a dickhead statement.”

And that concludes the voting from the North East.

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