Charles Green has declared war on the Scottish football authorities. His statement and that of Duff and Phelps today deserve detailed analysis, which is ongoing at McConville Towers as we speak, and will be concluded as soon as Stewart Regan, Neil Doncaster and Peter Lawwell tell me what to write.
For now, I wanted to speculate if Mr Green had managed to forget the terms of the SFA Rules, under which Rangers FC was censured for his comments some time ago. Mr Green could well have forgotten, as the censure took place as long as eleven days ago.
The relevant rules are as follows:
Rule 1: All member clubs shall:
(a) observe the principles of loyalty, integrity and sportsmanship in accordance with the rules of fair play;
(b) be subject to and comply with the Articles and any statutes, regulations, directives, codes, decisions and International Match Calendar promulgated by the Board, the Professional Game Board, the Non-Professional Game Board, the Judicial Panel Protocol, a Committee or sub-committee, FIFA, UEFA or the Court of Arbitration for Sport;
(c) recognise and submit to the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration for Sport as specified in the relevant provisions of the FIFA Statutes and the UEFA Statutes;
(d) respect of the Laws of the Game;
(e) refrain from engaging in any activity, practice or conduct which would constitute an offence under sections 1, 2 or 6 of the Bribery Act 2010; and
(f) behave towards the Scottish FA and other members with the utmost good faith.
Rule 2: Each member shall procure that its officials, its Team Officials and its players act in accordance with Rule 1.
Rule 66: No recognised football body, club, official, Team Official or other member of Team Staff, player, referee, or other person under the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA shall bring the game into disrepute.
Rule 71: A recognised football body, club, official, Team Official, other member of Team Staff, player or other person under the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA shall, at all times, act in the best interests of Association Football and shall not act in any manner which is improper.
Now let’s see where Mr Green might, through inadvertence, have sinned against those rules, accidentally of course. The following are extracted from his statement on the official Rangers FC website.
“Our lawyers have made that point repeatedly to the SPL in correspondence and yet our requests for an explanation from the SPL have been completely ignored. The SPL’s silence on these issues is deafening. The outcome of the SPL’s process will have no legal effect.
…
“Although the SPL goes to great lengths to emphasise the independence of its Commission, the Commission is not independent of the SPL. It has been appointed by the SPL. It follows SPL rules and its process is managed by SPL staff. I don’t question the impartiality of the individual panel members but whatever decision they reach is a decision of the SPL.
…
“Did the SPL launch an investigation? Did they appoint a Commission? Did they ask to see EBT correspondence? Did they ask any questions at all? No. They did absolutely nothing.
“What compounds the breathtaking hypocrisy of the SPL in this whole saga, is that the SFA, the SPL and us – as the new owners – took part in numerous discussions regarding the new company’s league status during which it was made clear that a deal was there to be done where ‘the EBT issue’ would be dealt with as part of a package of sanctions which would be implemented in return for membership of the SFA and a place in either the SPL or Division One.
“We do not accept that people who are willing to come to an agreement on such matters then have a right to instigate a full blown inquisition when matters do not unfold as they thought they would.
“In our view, it beggars belief that an authority which can be heavily involved in these discussions to the point that the Chief Executive Neil Doncaster repeatedly stated he was not interested in stripping titles from Rangers can lurch from that position to setting up its own Commission under the chairmanship of Lord Nimmo Smith.
“I must make it clear that we are not questioning for a moment the integrity of Lord Nimmo Smith and his colleagues but we believe the SPL have been hypocritical in their approach to this matter.
…
“Why is the SPL rushing to judgement now when it has been sitting on the matter for two years? Their haste is particularly difficult to understand when the tax tribunal judgement is imminent.
“The factual issues in both cases are identical. We have to ask why is the SPL so anxious to issue a judgement in this matter before the tax tribunal’s findings are made public.
…
“Nothing has changed as the judgement still has not been made public. Why is the SPL rushing ahead when in April the SFA felt it unwise to do so?
“Rangers was not the only club in Scotland to use EBTs yet nothing was done and little has been heard about it. Also, Rangers stands accused of achieving sporting advantage unfairly – yet there is little debate over the fact in all the years EBTs were in existence at Ibrox, the Club often failed to win either the league title, or the main cup competitions.
…
“The decision we have taken has not been taken lightly. There are powerful representatives from Clubs within the SPL – not all of them by any means – who appear hell bent on inflicting as much damage on Rangers as possible.
“It is lamentable that the Board and executive of the organisation have not been able to deal with this appropriately. We do not hold every SPL club in the same regard. Several clubs were placed in an invidious position and we believe their interests were not best served by those in more powerful positions.
“Furthermore, as a Club we are not satisfied that the issue of conflict of interest relating to advisers to the SPL has been satisfactorily dealt with.
“Once again I would thank our supporters for their patience and tolerance. They have been asked to take it on the chin time and again and we stand united in saying: No more.”
——————————————————
Have a read through these edited highlights once again…
The SPL’s silence on these issues is deafening … the Commission is not independent of the SPL … They (the SPL) did absolutely nothing … the breathtaking hypocrisy of the SPL in this whole saga … a full blown inquisition … it beggars belief that an authority which can be heavily involved in these discussions to the point that the Chief Executive Neil Doncaster repeatedly stated he was not interested in stripping titles from Rangers can lurch from that position … we believe the SPL have been hypocritical … There are powerful representatives from Clubs within the SPL – not all of them by any means – who appear hell bent on inflicting as much damage on Rangers as possible … It is lamentable that the Board and executive of the organisation have not been able to deal with this appropriately. We do not hold every SPL club in the same regard. Several clubs were placed in an invidious position and we believe their interests were not best served by those in more powerful positions … Once again I would thank our supporters for their patience and tolerance. They have been asked to take it on the chin time and again and we stand united in saying: No more.
——————————————————
Mr Green has issued a lengthy statement, as can be seen from the fact that what is shown above is only an extract from it. It is on the official Rangers website, and is stated to be by “Rangers Football Club”.
If this is not a declaration of war on the SPL and by extension the footballing authorities in Scotland, I don’t know what is.
I spoke to a friend who compared some of Mr Green’s recent statements to what has become known as “dog whistle politics”. There is little of the dog-whistle about this – instead it is a clear rallying cry to the loyal support of Rangers, which will, I am sure ensure that the turnstiles keep clicking at Ibrox for some time yet.
As of a few minutes ago the respective posts regarding the statement on two of the main Rangers FC fan sites showed a total of 867 posts and over 26,000 views. Not bad for a statement issued two hours ago!
I also suspect that the reaction there will be 100% positive.
Deciding that they are refusing to play and denouncing the process before the first hearing takes place is an interesting tactic. Now, if the Commission proceeds, in the absence of both oldco Rangers and newco Rangers and delivers a damning judgement, it will be ignored, it appears, by Mr Green and his company. And, if action is taken, then they propose to invoke the aid of the courts to stop disciplinary action happening.
What strikes me is that, once again, Mr Green is playing a masterful hand. He is a king of diversion. When the transfer of the SFA membership took place Mr Green said:-
“There remains, however, an outstanding issue with the SPL regarding EBTs. As we have proved in the last couple of months we will stand up to any challenges that face Rangers and will continue to fight for the Club’s best interests.”
What he has managed to do is to build the impression that the one penalty, above all others, which newco will not accept, being the most horrendous possible, is the stripping of titles. Not being barred for all time from, membership of the SPL; not being suspended for a longer period than the next three years; not the imposition of further financial penalties…
No, the one penalty to be fought against, above all others, is one which will cost newco not a penny, and will in fact generate more support from the fans.
As I said, it is brilliant!
He has challenged the football authorities to take action, as indeed he promised he would. So much gratitude for the three ruling bodies pledging to “facilitate” Rangers entry to SFL3!
And as far as his attack on some, but not all, SPL teams, one wonders why he felt constrained from telling us who they were. After all, Ibrox is the home of clarity, transparency and free speech!
However the extracts above indicate numerous ways in which the rules quoted at the top of this piece are broken. Will the SFA have the courage of its convictions to take action? Will the SFL take any steps itself?
Or has Mr Green stared them down, and, as long as the share flotation comes along in the near future, enraptured the fans into subscribing in their thousands?
As has been the case ever since RTC started, this piece could end with the line:- we have no idea what will happen next; we will have to wait and see!
Posted by Paul McConville
EKBhoy says:
September 13, 2012 at 20:14
‘Apologies worst iPhone post ever, hit the post key by accident. Flight calling’
—-
Hope you caught your flight, by the way.
smallteaser says:
September 13, 2012 at 22:51
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I am well confused after reading the Rangers history of their crest then checking wiki via google.
“The ‘READY’ Crest again featured a circular design but with ‘The Rangers Football Club Ltd’ shortened to ‘Rangers Football Club’ on the outer rim.”
http://www.rangers.co.uk/club/history/crest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rangers_Football_Club_Ltd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangers_F.C.
So who is The Rangers Football Club Ltd, Newco? or Oldco?
====================================
The Rangers Football Club plc (founded 1873 and incorporated in 1899) is now called RFC2012 and is the Old Club.
The Rangers Football Club Ltd (founded and incorporated in 2012) was previously called Sevco Scotland and is the New Club.
The brand name “Rangers Football Club” is simply one of a number of trademarks sold from OldClub to NewClub. The club crest, strips, slogans, etc are similar trademarks (part of that brand identity) sold by Rangers to Sevco.
The history of the old club, of course, overlaps the birth of the club currently calling itself Rangers. The old club’s history will end (probably sometime in 2014/15) when it is formally dissolved.
Torrevieja Johnbhoy says:
September 13, 2012 at 21:21
Guess the name of the second company that’s been blocked from going into liquidation and where does it fit in to the timeline?..
,,
TJ
The co name will be meaningless which is why it is interesting as it is linked to some actors in the drama
I have no idea why it has been recently blocked from dissolution and I certainly don`t have any inside info (sadly)
It could be an entirely innocent coincidence and perhaps it is
What I would say is this
It was reported on 22 June after the D&P “conflict of interest” BBC programme that Lord Hodge had said
Quote
“He had done nothing until now because he did not want to hinder the process of Rangers seeking a creditors voluntary agreement (CVA).
But, he told the accountants’ lawyers: “There is considerable public interest in this jurisdiction in relation to the administration.”
Lord Hodge added: “I do not want the administration to come to an end without having received that report.”
The report demanded by Lord Hodge is expected to be ready in three weeks and a further court hearing is likely to be arranged after that.
,,,,,,,,
3 weeks from 22 June is 13 July
Today is 13 Sept which is 8 weeks later
RFC are still “alive” thankfully not “kicking” perhaps because it claims to have sold its lunatic fringe along with its ethereal “history”
The Administration by D&P continues and now looks like milking the carcase until Lord Hodge decides otherwise
Even allowing for the civil servant lethargy that permeates the legal profession it is hard to believe that Lord Hodge has not yet read the report and made a decision about the D&P conflict of interest
More likely D&P asked for more time and this was granted and Lord Hodge has bee cogitating for about a month perhaps making supplementary enquiries that havent been responded to timeously
Even so
This still suggests an imminent announcement which either clears D&P or perhaps causes them more pain
My money is on more pain for D&P for one reason only
Obtaining a clean sheet from Lord Hodge is worth millions to Paul Clark while the opposite leaves him dependent on the silence of Whyte,Green ,SDM etc to salvage anything from this mess I(ncluding potentially unwinding the purchase of MCR by D&P)
The fact that D&P have chosen to support Green over the Dual Contracts issue suggests they are not hopeful about Lord Hodge clearing them of conflict of interest and perhaps reducing their fees (or maybe they are covering their bets by not falling out with Green)
I suspect the whole thing is now a big mess and no longer follows any coherent plan other than achieving a successful fundraising and all the bad guys baling out
Brenda says:
September 13, 2012 at 21:10
They’re in the ‘trophy’ room!!! Along with bomber brown, , lord Lucan, sandy jardine, shergar and the 2nd contracts
_____________________________________________________________________
You missed the St Etienne bike, Brenda.
Oh…. wait a minute….. Lance Armstrong has that one out on trial to assess if the standard ‘cheat’ features are up to the customary Ibrox standard.
Angus says:
September 13, 2012 at 19:40
Going miles OT but I have read somewhere that Shakespeare on stage is better with American actors (presumably the southern states rather than from NYC) as the English is a lot closer.
Always good to point out in the USA that they are still living in the past.
————————————————————————————————
Don’t agree, good or bad depends on quality of the acting and a performance could be excellent in Welsh or Hindustani. This idea probably comes from counter-acting an old snobbish idea that only British actors speaking in old fashioned RP accents could do Shakespeare properly and other accents – including American – would be just sooooo wrong.
One of the counter arguments was to point out (as others have here) that American accents (with a few exceptions) are in fact closer to the English of Shakespeare’s time – at least in the south half of England – than the RP which Shakespearean actors are trained to speak. Mind you so also are some modern English rural accents – and in some ways, Irish accents.
🙂
Well I enjoyed that bit of OT nonsense ..hope it wasn’t too boring for you.
Justinian @ 23:19
Lol 🙂
smallteaser says:
September 13, 2012 at 22:29
My laziness in terms of looking back at previous posts failed to give you named credit for the Barrie McKay 3 year contract rule.
You now appear to have uncovered another SFL rule that T’Rangers appear to be trying to circumvent.
More power to you elbow sir.
I take this opportunity to salute you twice.
Goosy 7th September 2012 23.18 and subsequent posts
Your apparently speculative analyses hang together like a suit of well fitting garments. I trust your computer spyware is being regularly upgraded.
kelly, shirley
BRTH sorry about that TD I work on the trains and damn it I pressed TD…your posts are always a joy to read and one like this certainly did not deserve a TD…humble apologies
With regard to the Uefa cash going to the oldco can I once again raise the issue of Mr Charles saying he was in Geneva to attend the European Club Association (ECA) meeting earlier this week.
If Uefa are recognising that euro cash earned before this current season is the oldco’s then surely the same must be the case for the current ECA membership which was offered and accepted by the oldco in 2010.
I tried to question the ECA via an e-mail but as yet have not received a reply.
Email: info@ecaeurope.com
If there are any bona fide journos out their who may have more influence or an approved line of communication to the ECA can they ask the following
Did Charles Green represent any of the 135 clubs who attended the two day meeting?
If the answer is no just print a story saying he while he may have actually been in Geneva he was at least impliying he attended the meeting while actually on the outside trying to get in or the worst he was lying about attending
If he did attend then what club did he represent?
If ‘Glasgow Rangers FC’ was there a transfer of membership (temporary or otherwise) from the original holders of the membership (oldco) to the newco?
Being that Uefa appear to recognise that the newco is not the same as the olcco that was entitled to Uefa payouts from last season and earlier, is it right that the newco should be attending ECA meetings?
I have been following this saga for the last 8 months and though I am not Scot I have found the goings on enthralling.thought I would put this link up to give you an Idea of a West Ham posters take on all the goings on : http://kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=138488&start=1340
Webster says:
September 13, 2012 at 23:47
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@Brogan Rogan Hogan and Trevino:
================
I think it was meant to say Graham Kelly.
Webster says:
September 13, 2012 at 23:47
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@Brogan Rogan Hogan and Trevino:
Pretty sure Graham Taylor didn’t take over at England until a year after Hillsborough.
And even then, cannot believe he would have piled in on that issue when running his national team.
Think you have this badly wrong, mate…
Minor slip-up, he meant Gordon Taylor
A few years ago when the Scottish Press were indulging in their annual discussion of capital punishment, The Hootsmon’s ‘Letters Page’ contained a series of letters arguing FOR the death penalty. Each of the letters ended with “… and I’d be prepared to pull the trigger myself.” (Or similar sentiment.)
The very last letter on the page that day, was also the shortest one. It was from a psychologist who questioned why so many pro-death penalty supporters actually volunteered their services? Lets just say that he queried whether the motive wasn’t entirely out of a sense of civic duty and public responsibility.
I smiled at the psychologist’s disarming question (and also giggled at the lay out of the letter’s page that day.)
Another question which should have been asked of the trigger-happy, would-be, executioners that day was, “Would you pull the trigger knowing that…. the family of the guy you execute will find out your name and hunt you and your family down?”
SPL investigation now November. FTTT result, now not September after all, apparently. The ability to ‘out delay’ everyone else throughout this saga, has been truly magnificent.
Give me a senior position in HMRC or the SPL or the SFA. I’d pull the trigger myself.
Oops, yes of course it was Graham Kelly, Gordon Taylor is/was the PFA chief
john clarke on September 13, 2012 at 21:28
Torrevieja Johnbhoy says:
September 13, 2012 at 21:05. —————————————————————–
Depends on what level you are doing mate;
Kids under 12 level 1 about 8 hours
Level 2 about the same
Level 3 same again although I can’t really remember, then level 4 is quite a bit longer and in level 5 its about a days worth with a test to pass. Hope that kind of helps.
In Timworld it is not often given the prominence which it deserves – other Clubs ‘stiffed’ by the misdeeds of the 1872 edition.
The top 4 SPL positions in the 5 applicable seasons of this millennium – all SPL fixtures recorded as a 3-0 defeat for the Old Sevconians.
2002/03 Celtic 102 Hearts 75 Kilmarnock 68 Dunfermline 58
2004/05 Celtic 98 Hibs 73 Aberdeen 72 Hearts 61
2008/09 Celtic 90 Hearts 67 Aberdeen 63 Dundee Utd 63
2009/10 Celtic 89 Dundee Utd 72 Hibs 65 Motherwell 62
2010/11 Celtic 97 Hearts 72 Dundee Utd 70 Kilmarnock 61
There are more than a few Clubs who could have utilised the Euros whcih have gone a’begging in that lot.
Apropos BRTH, chapeau dear boy,by the way, ‘Honour is a gift a man gives himself’, said by Liam Nesson as Rob Roy, I don’t know who the scriptwriter was, but since I’ve heard it, the expression codified how I’ve always tried to live my life. It’s not too late to rescue our society from the charlatans,spivs and snake oil salesmen who infect our business and sporting world. Regards to the vigilant bampots.
Whatever the reason for this blog in terms of monitoring Scottish football governance we constantly find ourselves talking about The Rangers.
Why? Because Charlie Boy wants the best of the old club an nothing to do with the bad.
Can we all agree upon one thing:
Rangers in Div 3 are not Rangers of a bygone era. That way, all of us, including Rangers fans, can move forwards. The whole EBT thing will mean nothing when penalties are directed towards a liquidated non-entity.
Charlie Boy, chill out! Your club have 0 titles to be stripped because they have not won anything – not even a Ramsden’s Cup (at least not yet).
The name should be changed – perhaps to Glasgow Rangers.
The badge should be changed and the 5 stars from merchandise should be removed.
The SFA should make a statement clarifying Rangers in SPL 3 are a new club with no history and the old club should be allowed to rest in peace.
Perhaps then Scottish Football might start to move forwards.
Rangers today are not Rangers of yesteryear and anyone who thinks differently is quite frankly delusional. I will continue to boycott my own club and the national team until such time, if it ever comes, that these facts are ratified officially, I’m through with Scottish football because the efforts of the administrators to save ‘Rangers’ are tearing the game apart. Sell out Saturday was a flop, attendances are no better than last term, Turnbull Hutton is yesterday’s man and everything is still all about Rangers.
Why are Div 3 matches on Sky and ESPN? Because it is Rangers. Why is Ogilvie still at the SFA? Because he is a Rangers man. Why does the national manager continues to pick Div 3 players to represent the country?Because they are Rangers players. Who gives a toss about Motherwell, St Mirren, St Johnstone, Kilmarnock, Hibernian, Dundee etc?
Have voting rights been amended from 11-1 in the SPL since ‘Rangers’ left? No.
Enough is enough – turn your backs on the game completely is my message to everyone who supports an SPL club because your chairmen and boards were, and remain, complicit in all of this scandal.
Just to frazzle your brains that little bit more – the 7 seasons of this millennium wherein the Old Sevconians did not finish in SPL pole position. All OS results recorded as a 0-3 loss.
2000/01 Celtic 100 Hibs 74 Hearts 64 Kilmarnock 63
2001/02 Celtic 107 Aberdeen 67 Livingston 66 Hearts 59
2003/04 Celtic 98 Hearts 76 Dunfermline 62 Motherwell 57
2005/06 Celtic 96 Hearts 82 Kilmarnock 67 Hibs 62
2006/07 Celtic 92 Aberdeen 74 Hearts 72 Kilmarnock 63
2007/08 Celtic 95 Motherwell 70 Aberdeen 61 Dundee Utd 60
2011/12 Celtic 99 Dundee Utd 68 Motherwell 68 St Johnstone 61
In this theoretical scenario Hearts have undoubtedly been the most disadvantaged wrt access to Euro competition. Vlad may not be so ‘mad’ after all.
Juninho signed in August 2004
contract registered with SFA and paid in accordance with that – tax paid, payslips issued etc
he didn’t play much and after 14 games he went back to brazil “by mutual consent” in April 2005
he was entitled to a pay off for the remainder of his contract
that was paid to him via an ebt – after he left celtic
in 2008 when HMRC started sniffing around about EBTs Brian Quinn – celtic chairman – declared teh EBT and paid the tax on it
case closed
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Case reopened – as Juninho was an employee and couldn’t have his own EBT (other than a sub trust within an EBT) was the Employee Benefit Trust set up by Celtic?
There is talk in other posts of him “bringing his EBT from Middlesborough” – not possible that EBT would be attached to Boro but as above Juninho could have had a sub trust within the Boro EBT
Sorry to bang on about this but I’m confused. Although there are no apparent double contract implications it was clearly a piece of tax avoidance entered into by Celtic but they got cold feet when Hector came knocking. For the avoidance of doubt this is not a piece of whataboutery I’m merely noting that it wasn’t only Rangers who indulged in cost saving activities.
It’sagoal! says:
September 13, 2012 at 20:45
Can any St Johnstone fans confirm on here they are giving Celtic more away tickets than normal this Sat – as I understand Celtic are getting the North and East stands?
——-
this is not unusual, as Saints for the past 20 odd years have given the Celtic and Rangers fans the North and East stand. It is pretty unpopular with Saints fans as most season ticket holders are moved from the East stand to the Main stand… One thing that is apparent is the Saints areas are rarely full for matches against Celtic and Rangers in Perth as there is a feeling we are treated as second class.
Of course, it brings in higher revenue as a result, but it is still not a popular decision in Perth.
Dear Agony Aunt
I have a problem that it is of my own making but I am struggling to get out of it.
A little while ago I picked up for dead cheap a rusty old e-type jag that had been lying in a barn for a long time. My friends and I decided we could make some money by fixing it up. Around 20 of us put a wee bit in and had some mechanics restore it.
At the same time, we had seen some photos of an e-type jag winning many car rallies many years ago – so I decided to try and get the licence plate from that old car to put on my new car. I found it on ebay and there were 5 folks involved in the bidding but at the end I managed to get the plates.
After sticking them on the restored car, we invited some rally buffs to some and see the “original” car that had won all of these races and they paid to have their photos with it, sponsor it and such. My 20 pals and I are making a good deal of money and have got our investment back and a wee bit more.
However I now have a problem.
10 years ago the original E-type jag with the plates I bought was involved in a hit and run accident – now that the plates are registered the authorities have come after me.
There is a hearing where I have been asked to attend to show that I bought the plates recently and so had nothign to do with the hit and run. That I can do very easilt – however then all the folks that bought tickets to see and be photographed with the car will realise its not the same car – just the same licence. The last owner of the plates said its not his problem as he sold the plates to me in good faith for a reduced price because there was some bad history to them.
So if I go to the hearing, I either confess to everyone I duped them and admit its nto the same car that won all those rallies or I get thrown into jail or maybe have the car taken off me for a crime I never committed.
What should I do – confess or take the punishement?
Agony Aunt : Well you shoudl not have duped the nice people like that – there is a 3rd option of course – scream and shout like a banshee about not being fair that a wonderful car that won all those races should be subjected to questions about a CCTV picture showing it at the scene of an accident and hope that the authorities back down. Or destroy the pictures – but that may be illegal.
Failing this, you could always torch the car, claim the insurance and run away…I suggest that is the best option.
A Expert says:
September 14, 2012 at 02:01
Juninho signed in August 2004
contract registered with SFA and paid in accordance with that – tax paid, payslips issued etc
he didn’t play much and after 14 games he went back to brazil “by mutual consent” in April 2005
he was entitled to a pay off for the remainder of his contract
that was paid to him via an ebt – after he left celtic
in 2008 when HMRC started sniffing around about EBTs Brian Quinn – celtic chairman – declared teh EBT and paid the tax on it
case closed
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Case reopened – as Juninho was an employee and couldn’t have his own EBT (other than a sub trust within an EBT) was the Employee Benefit Trust set up by Celtic?
There is talk in other posts of him “bringing his EBT from Middlesborough” – not possible that EBT would be attached to Boro but as above Juninho could have had a sub trust within the Boro EBT
Sorry to bang on about this but I’m confused. Although there are no apparent double contract implications it was clearly a piece of tax avoidance entered into by Celtic but they got cold feet when Hector came knocking. For the avoidance of doubt this is not a piece of whataboutery I’m merely noting that it wasn’t only Rangers who indulged in cost saving activities
++++++
To ease your confusion – 2 parts
The EBT was a payoff of the remainder of his contract (registered with SFA) – there is no double contract issue – the same contract that was paid was off was regsitered – SPL have confirmed that. Thsi is the issue before the SPL that CG is upset about.
The EBT tax liability that Hector is upset about is that RFC-NIL said they don’t owe the taxes because it was a loan to the player. Hector disagrees. Celtic asked their accountants if they ahd to pay taxes or not – and the Celtic lawyers agreed with Hector that there was tax due – Celtic paid it and Hector said thanks.
In both parts Celtic did not follow the path of RFC-NIL – that is the difference. Thankfully! To suggest anything is similar is disengenuous bby Chris Graham and his followers and they know it.
It is like someone who was given too much change and then after leaving the shop realises it and later on the next visit gives the money back to the cashier and then have someone saying because they left the shop with the extra money they are the same as a shop lifter. The two are not the same.
After @RangersTaxCase tweet, I looked again at the response issued from the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) in their response to the Freedom of Information request as to when the FTTT decision may issued. In that regard the MoJ said:
“The judge is very much aware of the public interest in this appeal and is doing all he can to enable the decision to be issued to parties as soon as is possible, the expectation is that the decision will be issued in September 2012.”
The plan appears to be to release the decision to the parties in September – given that the parties will get the decision 7 – 10 days in advance of public publication it is likely that the decision is about to be communicated to MIH and HMRC, and we may get to see this in early October (if this is not leaked first).
This could also explain why the SPL investigation into dual contracts will not sit until November – perhaps the tribunal hearing that matter wish to have access to the FTTT published decision.
If it transpires from the evidence that RFC gave to the FTTT that dual contracts existed and that RFC were aware of that fact, the panel would have to consider why RFC opted not to address that failing with the SPL/SFA when that came to light. Although RFC and Sevco will not participate in the SPL investigation into dual contracts – the defense of it was a mistake would not be available.
Can a European football club take the SFA to the Sporting Court of Arbitration?
If the FTTT decision provides evidence that RFC used dual contracts with the effect that players were not registered correctly and went onto play in European competitions – could a club seek redress from the SFA through the Court of Arbitration for failing to uphold their responsibilities?
Imagine if a European club publicly stated their belief that the SFA were partly responsible – this would then put pressure on others to establish the extent to which CO (and Gordon Smith?) knew about the use of dual contracts by RFC.
HMRC v MIH – the case that keeps on giving?
LTL – I was actually surprised when CG stated that no one else was bothering about EBTs and dual contracts – only SPL – hence more evidence it was an orchestrated witch hvnt apparently.
I would be careful if I were him – if FC Copenhagen who were denied a place in the CL groups by RFC-NIL, Stuttgart, Sporting Lisbon and many other teams who were denied additional prize money by a team with inelligible players come roaring back, SPL punishments may not be the major thing for him to worry about.
Or is the defence going to continue that since Kaunas, Moribor and Malmo beat them, this proves that it had no effect?
Don’t think – despite his trips to Switzerland – that UEFA will be so friendly and accomodating as SPL/SFA/SFL if other teams start to complain.
Remember that the whole RFC-NIL song sheet was highlighted (some say deliberately :-)) by Martin O’Neil at a press confernece before a Barcelona match where he raised the bogotry shwon against Neil Lennon and the songs and vilification by RFC-NIL. The fact that the Scottish press stayed slient while the European press wanted details was more evidence of the MSM fear factor. The fact that the European press and UEFA took notice was impressive!!!
Just thought – letting my imagination go wild here so apologies – what would be the reaction if UEFA were to rescind results as 0-3 defeats where ineligible players participated – would that mean that thousands of folks went to Manchester for a game that ultimately never involved their club if the results are reworked………..
Would be a shame if Zenit St Petersburg v (Ineligible Team) was the entry in the UEFA Cup entries……..
All those thousands of pounds of tax payers money paid in protecting and cleaning up the city for a game that ultimately woudl not have mattered……
Oh the shame of it all!
Webster ( various )
You are absolutely correct.
The sentence concerned should read Graham Kelly and not Graham Taylor and so the offending sentence has been edited and corrected,
Thankyou for pointing that out as I had clearly not noticed the error, and the lesson learned is that I shouldn’t post anything at that time of night when only half awake and not concentrating.
Sloppy indeed. My apologies to all.
The Invisible Line says:
September 14, 2012 at 03:52
12 0 Rate This
Dear Agony Aunt
IL, the best analogy on the oldco/newco situation which I have read.
Is it possible that if the FTT Appeal goes against RFC – they could employ the 10 day[?] notice period before general publication to appeal again – or try – to the UT [Upper Tribunal] to buy more time? Push-back seems to be the MO here as far as RFC[IA] are concerned as we well know. Fits with September date changed to an October “announcement” – & possibly the refusal to co-operate with the SPL Inquiry – could well be wrong but worth a note as we know anything’s possible in this saga.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/tribunals/tax-and-chancery-upper-tribunal
Torrevieja Johnbhoy on September 13, 2012 at 22:45
I believe CE is the one you are looking for?
‘Auldheid’ just happens to be one of THE most respected Celtic fan bloggers there has been over the last 10years. Especially when it cones to the rulebook.
The Invisible Line on September 14, 2012 at 06:38
I don’t recall MON every bringing up the subject matter.
I do recall a rather ‘naive’ reporter asking what HE intended to do about sectarianism in Scotland!
Yeah, if it wasn’t for Auldheid I’d definitely not be as clued up on Rules.
Thanks for that Auldheid.
TBK
http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/Lennon,+Neil+-+Miscellaneous+Articles
Halfway down – article by G Speirs
But it was the subtext of this remark that was telling. Murray knows, as everyone else knows, that the atmosphere at Ibrox on match days can be thick with bogotry. Around almost every corner of this sensitive subject, you have to apply checks and balances. Rangers should not be tarred exclusively with the sectarian problem, because Celtic suffer from it as well. In this specific context, we are dealing with Rangers and Ibrox, precisely because of what Martin O’Neill said earlier this week. Moreover, at Rangers, by general consent the sectarianism is worse than it is at Celtic. He outcry over O’Neil’s comments in Barcelona about the bogotry of many Rangers supporters has been extraordinary.
Changes to bogotry are mine
zendavista says:
September 13, 2012 at 23:53
I have been following this saga for the last 8 months and though I am not Scot I have found the goings on enthralling.thought I would put this link up to give you an Idea of a West Ham posters take on all the goings on : http://kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=138488&start=1340
——–
Thanks for the link. 🙂 68 pages!
Interesting to get a take from a non-Scottish forum. The lad “Wembley1966” has some excellent stuff on there.
I was going to suggest RM could be directed to that site for an unbiassed fans’ view – but you wouldn’t want them muscling in and polluting the atmosphere, really.
martin o’neill says:
September 14, 2012 at 00:58
Apropos BRTH, chapeau dear boy,by the way, ‘Honour is a gift a man gives himself’, said by Liam Nesson as Rob Roy, I don’t know who the scriptwriter was,
——————————————————————————
Alan Sharp it was – an up an coming (at the time) SCottish author a mate of mine recommended back in the 70s. Scottish litteratti were furious with him for taking the Hollywood shilling instead of writing the great (dull?) Scottish novel. He’s not been massively prodcutive but his scripts have always been more far more intelligent than the usual run-of-the-mill movies (while at the same time being good stories): for instance Rob Roy is far superior to Braveheart.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Sharp
TBK – this is the portion that make many Bears blame MON for setting the UEFA crowd spotters on them
Last Tuesday evening, O’Neill claimed there had been “racial and sectarian abuse” of his players at Ibrox when Rangers played Celtic last weekend, and that at times it had reached “an incredible crescendo”.
Mr Bunny – Agree that Rob Roy is way better than Braveheart – only issue I had was Jessica Lange’s attempt at a Scottish accent 🙂
zendavista says:
September 13, 2012 at 23:53
==================================
Angus says:
September 14, 2012 at 09:11
==================================
I saw the posts by Wembley also and a point that struck me was his take on the change from Sevco 5088 to Sevco Scotland to be able to secure Ticketus their contract .
If as has been said before that Ticketus were caught out by Scottish law when doing the deal ,could this company switch have been forced on the peepil behind the alleged scam and if so could this be the piece of the jigsaw that leads to the rumoured real plan .
Can we expect BDO to pick up on this and follow the money .Could BDO demand all paperwork pertaining to the Sevco 5088 and Sevco Scotland deal
twopanda bears says:
September 14, 2012 at 08:22
_______________________________
tp b
If my old fuzzy memory serves me as well as it used to, I recall from early day RTC blogs that, as soon as the current FTT(T) rules, them monies become due and have to be paid within a period of(?) days / weeks.
Should they wish to appeal to the Upper Tribunal, that’s all well and fine, but I’m sure it’s a case of ‘Give me my money’ and if you succeed at the UTT(T), we’ll give it back to you. Another fuzzy memory is that the penalty will be left aside until / and if an appeal is lodged with the UTT.
Fit and proper persons to run Football Clubs, it is a debate that is to the fore just now.
Charles Green seems to have passed that test but part of me wants to know the reasons why.
Why cannot the reasons be made public?
Romanov, at Hearts, for instance, was anything asked of him?
Remember Brooks Mileson of Gretna fame, did he come under scrutiny?
Craig Whyte, remember him?
And what about Dermot Desmond, a man with lots of questions to answer as shown below?
http://thestory.ie/2010/10/13/the-glackin-report-final-part-1/
Are we not entitled to ask retrospectively now?
Angus says:
September 14, 2012 at 09:11
0 0 Rate This
zendavista says:
September 13, 2012 at 23:53
I have been following this saga for the last 8 months and though I am not Scot I have found the goings on enthralling.thought I would put this link up to give you an Idea of a West Ham posters take on all the goings on : http://kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=138488&start=1340
——–
Thanks for the link. 68 pages!
Interesting to get a take from a non-Scottish forum. The lad “Wembley1966″ has some excellent stuff on there.
———
Ditto the link zendavista.
Wembley1966 wrote that Sevco Scotland still owes Sevco 5088 the Ticketus debt because Ticketus and Sevco 5088 are English companies, and Green inherited the Ticketus debt via his original 5088 company.
Did I understand that right?
The Invisible Line says:
September 14, 2012 at 09:04
Yes, but his comments were prompted by the leading question, “what do YOU intend to do about sectarianism……..”
I recall MON being astonished by such a question!
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 09:37
Your ignorance (or is it blind bogotry as observed on PmCC site?) shows no bounds……. DD is a majority `SHAREHOLDER’ he is not a Chairman.
Away and fish somewhere else!
TBK – ok I understand now – sorry 🙂
MSM’s questions are baffling at times – most would be struck down in court for “leading the witness”.
Like asking Brian Laudrup “Just why are you so good”
If only the MSM had been in USA, the world would have had to suffer Tricky Dicky Nixon much longer……”Do you have any tapes of Elvis?”……..
who’s been asking about charles green ?
D&P said he was ok didn’t they.
is that not good enough for some people ?
TheBlackKnight says:
September 14, 2012 at 09:49
Is it blind bigotry? Interesting analysis.
Majority shareholder, I apologise, I have got that wrong.
So maybe I should frame it another way are Celtic supporters aware that Dermond Desmond, their majority shareholder,is a very controversial character in Ireland?
http://www.publicinquiry.eu/2009/03/29/dermot-desmonds-chicken-comes-home-to-roost/
paul martin says:
September 14, 2012 at 09:58
who’s been asking about charles green ?
D&P said he was ok didn’t they.
is that not good enough for some people ?
………………………………………….
Yeh..exactly, after all.. I’m sure Ronnie Kray said Reggie was ok..did he not ?
😉
Thanks TBK! I’m still here, just developed something of lurking tendency! 🙂
I’m afraid I’m quite disappointed at the decision of the SMFC BoD to reject the 10,000 hrs offer for the club. There does some to be something of a stooshie brewing between the consortium and the BoD now as well, with each giving differing accounts of the breakdown of the offer. I feel this was a chance for a leap of faith, and something akin to a New Order of fan ownership to be started in Scottish Football. However the current BoD were not happy about the debts the Fans group were taking on and felt this was a risk not worth taking.
One often overlooked benefit of NEWCLUB receiving OLDCLUB’s SFA membership is that it stop’s the Bears ‘doing an Airdrie’ and assimilating another club into the NEWCLUB. So at least that threat of StRangers is not on the horizon at the moment. But the whole situation just leaves me feeling slightly melancholic about what could have been.
Refreshingly open and honest discussion on the RFC situation on that WHU board.
Shame we have to read about it from such a source to get a reasonable discussion without all the “agenda” crap.
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
September 14, 2012 at 06:47
My apologies to all.
=========
One typo/error is merely a wee, wee plook on the body of work that you have produced.
Not even, a plook just a pimple.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 09:37
Given all the nonesense currenlty coming out of his mouth, then yes we all would like to know what the reasons were for allowing Charles Green to pass the sniff test.
Romanov – I suspect there are a few dodgy deals in his background and a bit of ducking and diving. Not paying the players on time is a bit of a no no but at least he appears to have sorted that out and is be paying the taxman and any current creditors. He also appears to be in control of the bank that holds most of the Hearts debt, so he owes money to himself,
Brooks Mileson – well the man who had a wee dream of running a succesful football club is dead and can’t defend himself – move on.
Craig Whyte – banned sine die – move on
Dermott Desomnd – Like any business men I am sure there are a dodgy deal or two but as said above he is not running the club as CEO or Chairman but is involved as a major shareholder. In that role I am sure he has influence and gets involved but the fact is that we hear very little publicly from Dermott Desmond in relation to Celtic, let alone slagging off other member clubs, the footballing authorities and throwing wild accusations about the place. Indeed the exact opposite,
If we are at lists of the fit and proper then how about adding a certain Sir David Murray, who according to his last Chairman apparently kept his club going by continually going to a well that was a dry as a bone.
In response to your query I would suggest that all those running football clubs should be subject to a regular review process to ensure they are still fit and proper to run a football club.
Despite your attempts to ‘divert and deflect’ I am guessing that Mr Green could be undergoing another sniff test very soon as part of a review of the conditional membership granted to his club.
PS if at anytime you want to prove that Mr Green is bang on track for running a sustainable football club then go ahead, because that is the main worry for people just now. If the club is to be sustainable and fight its way back to the top without causing any further impact on the rest of Scottish Football then they need to take care of the books and play by the rules. Therefore Mr Green needs to get his head down and do that as opposed to opening his mouth and letting his backside rumble.
Also regarding Lord Hodge, Haudit and Daudit, and the mysterious missing report, would it be worthwhile for a creditor or a concerned member of the public pursuing a FOI request, or contacting their MSP on the delay?
The Black Knight / J Maclure
I don’t think it is either fishing or trolling to ask relevant questions or to provide our forum with insights about owners and controllers of our clubs.
Even if it means asking uncomfortable questions about our own clubs and the folk heroes in control.
That’s no different to what we have done to the Govan club for a long time.
For me “ownership” is something that needs addressing and we can learn from Germany.
And “community” is the strategy.
Today’s Aberdeen Press & Journal contains an interesting juxtaposition of articles. Alex Smith uses his column to bemoan Scotland’s failings, widening that to include other British teams.
“Natural homegrown talent is struggling” he says “and rather than question (the) manager’s ability (Levein), we should be looking at why we are coming up short in the field.”
He ends with “Something, somewhere has gone horribly wrong and it may get worse yet.”
The adjacent article is on Craig Brown’s appointment of Jocky Scott (64) to a role aimed at ‘specialist coaching’ of some of the younger players.
I have no knowledge of Scott’s coaching skills and he has obviously been around Scottish football for many years. As I suspect that no Aberdeen fan can be happy at the performance of the team over recent years, some kind of action was clearly required.
What struck me however was how a clutch of senior figures in Scottish football appear to be struggling to understand what has been going wrong and in Aberdeen’s case the fall-back is to engage someone who appears to be of the ‘old school’ and unlikely to rock the boat.
Whilst Scott will doubtless easily fit in with the present management team is this really what is needed? Is there succession planning at Pittodrie? Is there any injection of new ideas and fresh blood?
Smith said “Something, somewhere has gone horribly wrong and it may get worse yet.”
This from an ‘elder statesman’ of our game. Clearly he hasn’t a clue what has gone wrong or how to fix it.
Are Aberdeen in the same boat and is this not just a microcosm of the malaise we have seen at the SFA and SPL? This year both of those bodies exhibited a failure of leadership and a lack of vision. Short-termism at the expense of the good of the game.
At this point we should have an SFA President standing up and pointing the way ahead. As it stands we have someone who might as well be on gardening leave as he keeps his head down in what is likely to be an ultimately vain effort to retain his position.
How can someone who admits to having an outstanding loan from a member club, and which he was obviously aware was structured purely for tax avoidance purposes without a normal repayment requirement, speak with any authority or credibility?
SFA members need to take a good look at this whole situation and take urgent action.
Whether there are real merits in something like the McLeish proposals I do not know – I am just a fan not a footballing expert. I would however quite like to hear some expert analysis of this and how we could replicate the systems in place in countries like Spain.
How does Belgium find itself with such a crop of such talented players? Chance or the result of a good system developed over many years?
As my good friend Albert said, “insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
….
/ Red Lichtie
WOTTPI says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:17
‘Despite your attempts to ‘divert and deflect’ I am guessing that Mr Green could be undergoing another sniff test very soon as part of a review of the conditional membership granted to his club.’
I take umbrage at your assertion. I try to widen the debate on a ‘Scottish Football Monitor’ but I am subjected to ‘ J’accuse’.
Let me be perfectly plain I want to see David Murray and Craig Whyte in the dock.
I want to see Charles Green ‘shut up’ and actually prove to me why I should trust him.
Is the fact that I mentioned Dermot Desmond in a negative light the part that gets to you?
Why should it, if he is a majority shareholder in Celtic, should he not be subject to the same scrutiny?
Jim @ 10.26
When Alex Smith says (and paraphrasing) dont blame the manager but blame the lack of talent
well………firstly i am NOT a fan of CL but even so..
the talent he has at his disposal is astounding,its just that he doesnt have a clue how to use them
(Jim this wasnt a rant at you,you were only the messenger)
Get rid of the defensive minded managers as i would rather die trying than be killed running away
CE says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:15
Was the full (Oldco/Rangers Fc) membership transfered? I thought a “conditional membership” was approved for The Rangers Fc.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:39
—————————————
I welcome any input that adds to the general tenet of the blog and, from time to time, your posts are asking questions that we all want answers to.
However, I have noticed that you have a tendencey to introduce a bit of “whataboutery” to your posts and this devalues them. It is therefore difficult to ascertain if you are genuinely interested in answers or just trolling. Perhaps you should try and refrain from this and then you might get some serious debate rather than brickbats.
“tendency”
Whilst I agree with Neal to a certain extent please believe me it will not be long before ‘J Maclure’ mask slips.
What follows next will be ….. Catholic schools and how DD may have been influenced by Opus Dei and Peter Lawwell’ control over the SFA and Scottish Goverment?
Don’t feed the troll.
PS.
DD is not off limits here. I have yet to see anyone bring anything ‘shocking’/ ‘illegal’ / ‘disreputable’ in regard to ANY of the Celtic shareholders.
I for one am thankful that we appear to be run by astute businessmen who operate within the confines of statute and regulations………
THAT cannot be said for our once closest rivals!
I am a (thank God!) retired primary school headteacher. My last post was in a large school in a big housing scheme with, shall we say, many ‘challenging’ children (or little Bs when recalling events over wine on a Friday evening).
When it came to ‘challenging’ behaviour and it consequences, the reactions of the children varied.
There was the ‘fair cop, guv’ response. OK, I did it and I’ll take the punishment. They were by and large children who were rarely in trouble.
Next came ‘deny and then admit.’ They were the ones who at first denied they were at fault, but succumbed to the evidence and took the hit, albeit with often a grumble or two.
The third lot were absolute deniers – “it wisnae me …” and no matter how much they were presented with the evidence “Ah didnae dae it.” Any punishment was responded to with outrage and sometimes refusals, which led to even more grief for them. Most of these children never ever admitted to any wrongdoing and would probably have come through the Spanish Inquisition still declaring their innocence.
Allied to this behaviour was ‘deny and accuse,’ when more than one child was involved – “it wasnae me, it wis him.” In a fight, for example, even with cast iron evidence from a host of other children or witnessing adults, it was always the other ones’ fault and again nothing would induce them to accept guilt.
More worrying was the “I’ll get you” threat to other child accusers. Most times these were empty threats, but sometimes led to actual violence after school.
Time and again punishment by myself, senior staff or class teachers was never fair – the world was out to get them.
Many of the parents mirrored their children’s attitudes and getting them to admit to their offsprings’ anti-social behaviour was often impossible. A lot of these parents had been to the school and were remembered by longer-serving staff as being as difficult as the current generation. And so it continued in a vicious circle.
Of course we tried a lot of positive initiatives which did bear fruit, although getting through to some failed miserably.
OK, you know where this is going.
I’m talking, of course, about immature children sometimes acting out of an almost instinctive reaction to their perception of threat, much of it fostered in unhappy early childhood experiences in poorly functioning families.
But it does extend into adulthood. At its worst, we have men who will put women through nightmares by pleading innocence to rape when they know they are guilty. At the very extreme there are the monsters like Robert Black and Peter Tobin who have brought misery to families of murdered children by refusing to plead guilty to their crimes.
I added the last paragraph because the denial, accusations and threats by fans and management at Sevco, Rangers (IA) or whatever pale into insignificance compared to the above.
But the behaviours I have discussed above in children below the teenage stage have all been evident in the Saga which has emanated from Ibrox.
We have had the ‘fair cop, guv’ responses, highlighted by Adam on RTC and his admissions that Rangers (as was) was guilty and had to be punished.
But by and large the vast majority of responses have been the denial, accuse, and, by some, threaten (even to bombs and bullets) ones. But these have not been done by immature kids, but supposed mature, even thought sophisticated, adults – “we never did it,” “it’s aw their fault,” “it’s no fair,” “we’ll get them.”
A case in point, from FF :
From bluemagic
Does anyone think that we won’t get a fair crack of the whip from nimmo smith & co ?
________________________________________
Over the last few days, there has been a lot of richly deserved criticism of the SPL and the media in their approach to dealing with the EBT matter , but when we finally get down to business before his lordship and 2 QCs does anyone have any reservations that we won’t get a fair hearing ?
There has been some unsubstantiated concerns expressed on these threads over the week regarding the selection of the panel and all I would say to Leggo and anyone else is if you’ve got anything concrete about that, bring it to the club’s attention and let our lawyers assess its evidential value.
Assuming that nothing of significance arises concerning the fitness of these gentlemen to preside, I have no concerns at all that we will get a fair crack of the whip.
I am seriously concerned about the suggestion that Charles Green does not intend to have legal representation in attendance. I regard such a proposal as quite absurd. It is absolutely critical that we have the best counsel money can buy representing rangers’ best interests throughout these proceedings. What if an essential document hasn’t been lodged ? Or a question of admissisibility arises ? (it’s conceiveable that there could be matters in the documents which were unfairly obtained and should not be considered). There are innumerable possibilities of situations from which sharp counsel might make hay, and I am suspicious of those who propose to allow the hearing to proceed without rangers being legally represented.
So my bottom line is that I believe that we will get a fair hearing AND that it is imperative that we instruct the best counsel available.
A reasonable post from a reasonable person.
Responses :
I think the Sellick Premier League, Sellick’s solicitors and Sellick’s choice of inept panel members will give us a fair and just trial.
Ffs man . They’ve made their minds up, the joke panel will strip our titles, we will ignore their verdict and drag them through the courts. Independent panel,working to ceptics guideli…..sorry SPL’s guidelines.
Hopefully Charlie and co are getting ready for a fight, we need to meet this head on, why? because we are the people……we are the Rangers, and I hope we have had enough sh** + from the SPL to muster for the fight.
+ actual word published
The club can’t come out and express concerns about Nimmo Smith but I can. Is it so far fetched that a bent organisation driven by a bent club would rope in a bent judge/QC to do their bidding?
I won’t go on with any more. Anyone up to a PHd on this?
Whilst I agree with Neal to a certain extent please believe me it will not be long before ‘J Maclure’ mask slips.
What follows next will be ….. RC schools and how DD may have been influenced by O.D. and Peter Lawwell’ control over the SFA and Scottish Goverment?
Don’t feed the troll.
PS.
DD is not off limits here. I have yet to see anyone bring anything ‘shocking’/ ‘illegal’ / ‘disreputable’ in regard to ANY of the Celtic shareholders.
I for one am thankful that we appear to be run by astute businessmen who operate within the confines of statute and regulations………
THAT cannot be said for our once closest rivals!
tomtom says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:50
‘However, I have noticed that you have a tendencey to introduce a bit of “whataboutery” to your posts and this devalues them. It is therefore difficult to ascertain if you are genuinely interested in answers or just trolling. Perhaps you should try and refrain from this and then you might get some serious debate rather than brickbats.’
Sorry, I am baffled by that.
Kindred Spirit says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:42
0 0 Rate This
Jim @ 10.26
When Alex Smith says (and paraphrasing) dont blame the manager but blame the lack of talent
well………firstly i am NOT a fan of CL but even so..
the talent he has at his disposal is astounding………………….
————————————————————-
Bah, piffle and balderdash!
Astounding? by what measure? He isn’t even selecting the best SCOTTISH players available to him – but even if he did, the talent available to him would be, at best, mediocre
I am not a fan of Craig Levein either and I think he should have done a better job with what he has at his disposal (even without the ones he won’t pick)
But lets look seriously at what he has to work with….a couple of Celtic players who get a run in Europe, the rest are SPL/Championship players – and unlike the 70/80’s when the scottish players were the KEY players in the TOP English team, the guys aren’t standouts in their own mediocre championship level clubs.
Even if we threw Fletcher (out injured at Man U) back into the mix right now, we could claim he is a regular 1st team pick for the biggest team in England, but really, he’s a water carrier – he isn’t a leader, game changer. And don’t get me wrong, i put Paul lambert into the same category – and i regard paul as a fantastic player – but he needs a level of ability around him for him to do what he does well and contribute effectively. Simply throwing fletcher into the team – the best player at our disposal right now – wouldn’t change performances (and indeed, it hasn’t when he has played)
We have a team/generation (hell might be onto the 2nd generation) of very limited footballers – 1 footed, slow, unambitious, no creativity, no dominance, absolutely rank rotten basic skills.
there is more than one contributing factor to all of this, but one thing is for sure, what we are doing right now is not working – so there is no defence for maintaining the status quo – especially since one half of the cash cow is on perilous ground and may not survive – we should be thinking about changing the model now
If that means celtic, in the short to medium term, get shafted in the re-org, so be it. Celtic (and Rangers) have had too easy a ride of it in the past 20 years, their business might be good, but the rest of the game is dying.
TheBlackKnight says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:54
‘Whilst I agree with Neal to a certain extent please believe me it will not be long before ‘J Maclure’ mask slips.
What follows next will be ….. RC schools and how DD may have been influenced by O.D. and Peter Lawwell’ control over the SFA and Scottish Goverment?
Don’t feed the troll.’
Pathetic.
‘I for one am thankful that we appear to be run by astute businessmen who operate within the confines of statute and regulations………’
Sorry for bringing it up then, I should have known not to.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:39
‘Despite your attempts to ‘divert and deflect’ I am guessing that Mr Green could be undergoing another sniff test very soon as part of a review of the conditional membership granted to his club.’
I take umbrage at your assertion. I try to widen the debate on a ‘Scottish Football Monitor’ but I am subjected to ‘ J’accuse’.
Let me be perfectly plain I want to see David Murray and Craig Whyte in the dock.
I want to see Charles Green ‘shut up’ and actually prove to me why I should trust him.
Is the fact that I mentioned Dermot Desmond in a negative light the part that gets to you?
Why should it, if he is a majority shareholder in Celtic, should he not be subject to the same scrutiny?
—————————————————————————————————————
Mr. Maclure
I see you are now stating that “every” major shareholder in any of our clubs should be subjected to scrutiny, this is correcdt ? Since to mention only one of the very many “major” shareholders in the Scottish game shows that you are indeed biased .
As an example what about the redoubtable Mr. King for instance – was he subjected to srutiny, I am sure there are many more examples which I have no doubt you will mention in your next contribution.
Zendavista @23-53pm
Excellent link Zenda. These West Ham fans seem to have more knowledge on the Rankers saga than the entire MSM.
The Invisible Line says:
September 14, 2012 at 04:04
A Expert says:
Case reopened – as Juninho was an employee and couldn’t have his own EBT (other than a sub trust within an EBT) was the Employee Benefit Trust set up by Celtic?
There is talk in other posts of him “bringing his EBT from Middlesborough” – not possible that EBT would be attached to Boro but as above Juninho could have had a sub trust within the Boro EBT
Sorry to bang on about this but I’m confused. Although there are no apparent double contract implications it was clearly a piece of tax avoidance entered into by Celtic but they got cold feet when Hector came knocking. For the avoidance of doubt this is not a piece of whataboutery I’m merely noting that it wasn’t only Rangers who indulged in cost saving activities
=========================================================================
To ease your confusion – 2 parts
The EBT was a payoff of the remainder of his contract (registered with SFA) – there is no double contract issue – the same contract that was paid was off was regsitered – SPL have confirmed that. Thsi is the issue before the SPL that CG is upset about.
The EBT tax liability that Hector is upset about is that RFC-NIL said they don’t owe the taxes because it was a loan to the player. Hector disagrees. Celtic asked their accountants if they ahd to pay taxes or not – and the Celtic lawyers agreed with Hector that there was tax due – Celtic paid it and Hector said thanks.
In both parts Celtic did not follow the path of RFC-NIL – that is the difference. Thankfully! To suggest anything is similar is disengenuous bby Chris Graham and his followers and they know it.
It is like someone who was given too much change and then after leaving the shop realises it and later on the next visit gives the money back to the cashier and then have someone saying because they left the shop with the extra money they are the same as a shop lifter. The two are not the same.
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I wasn’t suggesting there was a double contracts issue as the “facts” available appear to confirm this.
My confusion arises from the existence of a “Juninho EBT” (if indeed an EBT was involved) into which the payment was made. Players don’t set up EBT’s only clubs do and then contributions into it are earmarked for distribution to players via sub trusts within the EBT.
Which club set up the EBT? Celtic or Boro? Probably not Celtic as there is no disclosure in their accounts.
So it must have been Boro – why would Celtic pay the severance payment into another clubs EBT where it woud be allocated to the Juninho sub trust?
I think what I’m saying is that we don’t have all the facts here and we can’t sweep it under the carpet MSM style just because it doesn’t look good for Celtic. However, what we can say is that on discovering the “error” they acted with integrity to correct the position and well done to them for that.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:57
tomtom says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:50
‘However, I have noticed that you have a tendencey to introduce a bit of “whataboutery” to your posts and this devalues them. It is therefore difficult to ascertain if you are genuinely interested in answers or just trolling. Perhaps you should try and refrain from this and then you might get some serious debate rather than brickbats.’
Sorry, I am baffled by that.
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Textbook trolling.
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
September 14, 2012 at 08:27
Torrevieja Johnbhoy on September 13, 2012 at 22:45
I believe CE is the one you are looking for?
‘Auldheid’ just happens to be one of THE most respected Celtic fan bloggers there has been over the last 10years. Especially when it cones to the rulebook.
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TBK,
Sorry,I’d to look back at the post in question.
I’m not looking for anyone.I was just answering a comment by Jammy Dodger.
I have also followed Auldheid since the start of the blog and know that his input is invaluable,not only on here but also on KDS.
tomtom says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:49
TheBlackKnight says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:54
Whilst I agree with Neal to a certain extent please believe me it will not be long before ‘J Maclure’ mask slips.
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TBK, you might have waited till the mask slipped then!.
The person asked some valid questions, if he/she has any evidence that the people mentioned are not fit & proper let it be brought forward, lets put a circle round the universe and see what the quantum is!.
I agree the fit & proper person criteria is needed for all directors, not just the chairman.
Before this can happen though the owners must also be known, obviously a bit different in a plc where there will be thousands of share holders.
I disagree that it happens retrospectively, however, do believe what was meant was “on an ongoing basis”.
Therefore the guy who passed fit & proper in June but was suspended from ever being a director in July would not fulfil the criteria.
Lets post with reasonable comments before accusing people of trolling.
Lets differ on opinions for at least a couple of posts before shooting down posters.