Charles Green has declared war on the Scottish football authorities. His statement and that of Duff and Phelps today deserve detailed analysis, which is ongoing at McConville Towers as we speak, and will be concluded as soon as Stewart Regan, Neil Doncaster and Peter Lawwell tell me what to write.
For now, I wanted to speculate if Mr Green had managed to forget the terms of the SFA Rules, under which Rangers FC was censured for his comments some time ago. Mr Green could well have forgotten, as the censure took place as long as eleven days ago.
The relevant rules are as follows:
Rule 1: All member clubs shall:
(a) observe the principles of loyalty, integrity and sportsmanship in accordance with the rules of fair play;
(b) be subject to and comply with the Articles and any statutes, regulations, directives, codes, decisions and International Match Calendar promulgated by the Board, the Professional Game Board, the Non-Professional Game Board, the Judicial Panel Protocol, a Committee or sub-committee, FIFA, UEFA or the Court of Arbitration for Sport;
(c) recognise and submit to the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration for Sport as specified in the relevant provisions of the FIFA Statutes and the UEFA Statutes;
(d) respect of the Laws of the Game;
(e) refrain from engaging in any activity, practice or conduct which would constitute an offence under sections 1, 2 or 6 of the Bribery Act 2010; and
(f) behave towards the Scottish FA and other members with the utmost good faith.
Rule 2: Each member shall procure that its officials, its Team Officials and its players act in accordance with Rule 1.
Rule 66: No recognised football body, club, official, Team Official or other member of Team Staff, player, referee, or other person under the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA shall bring the game into disrepute.
Rule 71: A recognised football body, club, official, Team Official, other member of Team Staff, player or other person under the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA shall, at all times, act in the best interests of Association Football and shall not act in any manner which is improper.
Now let’s see where Mr Green might, through inadvertence, have sinned against those rules, accidentally of course. The following are extracted from his statement on the official Rangers FC website.
“Our lawyers have made that point repeatedly to the SPL in correspondence and yet our requests for an explanation from the SPL have been completely ignored. The SPL’s silence on these issues is deafening. The outcome of the SPL’s process will have no legal effect.
…
“Although the SPL goes to great lengths to emphasise the independence of its Commission, the Commission is not independent of the SPL. It has been appointed by the SPL. It follows SPL rules and its process is managed by SPL staff. I don’t question the impartiality of the individual panel members but whatever decision they reach is a decision of the SPL.
…
“Did the SPL launch an investigation? Did they appoint a Commission? Did they ask to see EBT correspondence? Did they ask any questions at all? No. They did absolutely nothing.
“What compounds the breathtaking hypocrisy of the SPL in this whole saga, is that the SFA, the SPL and us – as the new owners – took part in numerous discussions regarding the new company’s league status during which it was made clear that a deal was there to be done where ‘the EBT issue’ would be dealt with as part of a package of sanctions which would be implemented in return for membership of the SFA and a place in either the SPL or Division One.
“We do not accept that people who are willing to come to an agreement on such matters then have a right to instigate a full blown inquisition when matters do not unfold as they thought they would.
“In our view, it beggars belief that an authority which can be heavily involved in these discussions to the point that the Chief Executive Neil Doncaster repeatedly stated he was not interested in stripping titles from Rangers can lurch from that position to setting up its own Commission under the chairmanship of Lord Nimmo Smith.
“I must make it clear that we are not questioning for a moment the integrity of Lord Nimmo Smith and his colleagues but we believe the SPL have been hypocritical in their approach to this matter.
…
“Why is the SPL rushing to judgement now when it has been sitting on the matter for two years? Their haste is particularly difficult to understand when the tax tribunal judgement is imminent.
“The factual issues in both cases are identical. We have to ask why is the SPL so anxious to issue a judgement in this matter before the tax tribunal’s findings are made public.
…
“Nothing has changed as the judgement still has not been made public. Why is the SPL rushing ahead when in April the SFA felt it unwise to do so?
“Rangers was not the only club in Scotland to use EBTs yet nothing was done and little has been heard about it. Also, Rangers stands accused of achieving sporting advantage unfairly – yet there is little debate over the fact in all the years EBTs were in existence at Ibrox, the Club often failed to win either the league title, or the main cup competitions.
…
“The decision we have taken has not been taken lightly. There are powerful representatives from Clubs within the SPL – not all of them by any means – who appear hell bent on inflicting as much damage on Rangers as possible.
“It is lamentable that the Board and executive of the organisation have not been able to deal with this appropriately. We do not hold every SPL club in the same regard. Several clubs were placed in an invidious position and we believe their interests were not best served by those in more powerful positions.
“Furthermore, as a Club we are not satisfied that the issue of conflict of interest relating to advisers to the SPL has been satisfactorily dealt with.
“Once again I would thank our supporters for their patience and tolerance. They have been asked to take it on the chin time and again and we stand united in saying: No more.”
——————————————————
Have a read through these edited highlights once again…
The SPL’s silence on these issues is deafening … the Commission is not independent of the SPL … They (the SPL) did absolutely nothing … the breathtaking hypocrisy of the SPL in this whole saga … a full blown inquisition … it beggars belief that an authority which can be heavily involved in these discussions to the point that the Chief Executive Neil Doncaster repeatedly stated he was not interested in stripping titles from Rangers can lurch from that position … we believe the SPL have been hypocritical … There are powerful representatives from Clubs within the SPL – not all of them by any means – who appear hell bent on inflicting as much damage on Rangers as possible … It is lamentable that the Board and executive of the organisation have not been able to deal with this appropriately. We do not hold every SPL club in the same regard. Several clubs were placed in an invidious position and we believe their interests were not best served by those in more powerful positions … Once again I would thank our supporters for their patience and tolerance. They have been asked to take it on the chin time and again and we stand united in saying: No more.
——————————————————
Mr Green has issued a lengthy statement, as can be seen from the fact that what is shown above is only an extract from it. It is on the official Rangers website, and is stated to be by “Rangers Football Club”.
If this is not a declaration of war on the SPL and by extension the footballing authorities in Scotland, I don’t know what is.
I spoke to a friend who compared some of Mr Green’s recent statements to what has become known as “dog whistle politics”. There is little of the dog-whistle about this – instead it is a clear rallying cry to the loyal support of Rangers, which will, I am sure ensure that the turnstiles keep clicking at Ibrox for some time yet.
As of a few minutes ago the respective posts regarding the statement on two of the main Rangers FC fan sites showed a total of 867 posts and over 26,000 views. Not bad for a statement issued two hours ago!
I also suspect that the reaction there will be 100% positive.
Deciding that they are refusing to play and denouncing the process before the first hearing takes place is an interesting tactic. Now, if the Commission proceeds, in the absence of both oldco Rangers and newco Rangers and delivers a damning judgement, it will be ignored, it appears, by Mr Green and his company. And, if action is taken, then they propose to invoke the aid of the courts to stop disciplinary action happening.
What strikes me is that, once again, Mr Green is playing a masterful hand. He is a king of diversion. When the transfer of the SFA membership took place Mr Green said:-
“There remains, however, an outstanding issue with the SPL regarding EBTs. As we have proved in the last couple of months we will stand up to any challenges that face Rangers and will continue to fight for the Club’s best interests.”
What he has managed to do is to build the impression that the one penalty, above all others, which newco will not accept, being the most horrendous possible, is the stripping of titles. Not being barred for all time from, membership of the SPL; not being suspended for a longer period than the next three years; not the imposition of further financial penalties…
No, the one penalty to be fought against, above all others, is one which will cost newco not a penny, and will in fact generate more support from the fans.
As I said, it is brilliant!
He has challenged the football authorities to take action, as indeed he promised he would. So much gratitude for the three ruling bodies pledging to “facilitate” Rangers entry to SFL3!
And as far as his attack on some, but not all, SPL teams, one wonders why he felt constrained from telling us who they were. After all, Ibrox is the home of clarity, transparency and free speech!
However the extracts above indicate numerous ways in which the rules quoted at the top of this piece are broken. Will the SFA have the courage of its convictions to take action? Will the SFL take any steps itself?
Or has Mr Green stared them down, and, as long as the share flotation comes along in the near future, enraptured the fans into subscribing in their thousands?
As has been the case ever since RTC started, this piece could end with the line:- we have no idea what will happen next; we will have to wait and see!
Posted by Paul McConville
Jim says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:26..
My apologies Jim, what first appeared to be an intersting post,I stopped reading at the mention of Jocky Scott …
Jim says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:26..
My apologies Jim, what first appeared to be an intersting post,I stopped reading at the mention of Jocky Scott …
Seems to be jobs for the boys in Scottish Football, and old boys at that.
Must be the oldest managerial team in Football, unless someone knows better?
It begs the question, in football should we listen to our elders?
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:39
Way off the mark, sir.
I provided a response in relation to each of those on your list.
I have no particular liking for those in green and white hoops.
In terms of fans wanting to ensure that the people running their clubs are fit and proper I think you are pushing against an open door. I don’t think there is much to debate.
I think you will find that given the events over the last ten years at Scottish clubs like Rangers and Hearts and some of the activites south of the border (Liverpool, Man Utd Portsmouth etc) most would like the footballing authorities to ensure that procedures are in place to vet owners and those operating the clubs.
As I have suggested a regular review process needs to be adopted to ensure an incumbent does not get too comfy and complacent sitting behind the big desk..
Ideally as Neal says and element of fan ownership would also be helpful as a check and balance.
Fans have always questioned the activities of owners but yes they would like the authorities to do more as well.
Stewart Milne at Aberdeen has had a hard time over the years.
Tom Farmer’s role at Hibs is always questioned as not being involved or being ambitious for the club.
Romanov has his critics including high profile ones with media access such as Gary McKay and George Foulkes.
Maybe Rangers fans need to heed the words of one of their own in relation to both the Whyte and Green.
“I think whay you are always hoping for is that you get an Abramovich rather than a Romanov”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/8223470.stm
In fact given that they are in Div 3 and no prospect of European football for a wee while Romanov may have been a better option that what they have at present.
A Expert says:
September 14, 2012 at 11:09
On RTC it was discussed at length – there is no seeping under any carpets.
From what I remember in statements made by Celtic and discussions on RTC it was payments to an EBT already set up by Boro for him that the money was paid into.
This was the check that was then done to see if thsi was ok ro not – the player and his agent had said no problem – but Celtic (good for them) wanted to ensure nothing was going to come back on them.
I have no issue with what they did – and if it helps any, Paul McConville did a piece at the time which I agreed with, that Celtic shoudl take the high ground and say we did nothing wrong and it is confirmed nothing was done, however we withdraw from that season for any games he played in and will accept a 0-3 loss. At the time I thought it would be helpful.
Now due to the nonsense eminating from leaders such as Chris Graham, this woudl be seen as an admittance of guilt and confirmation of their nonsense. So now I have changed my mind
To be fair, I don’t have green glasses – I am a much a critic of Celtic as anyone else – as my prior postings on here and RTC can show
Unfortunately, here I don’t see anything I would criticise Celtic for other than wasting money on him.
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:39
While I am not a fan of the instant polls sometimes used on this site here is a quick way to see if there is much debate to be had on the fit and proper issue.
QUESTION
Should all Scottish Football Club Owners, Chairmen and CEO’s undergo a regular and constantly reviewed fit and proper test by the SFA and should the results be made public?
TU = Yes TD – No (the present arrangement is fine)
A Expert says: September 14, 2012 at 11:09
From CelticQuickNews: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=10367
In season 2004-05 former World Cup winner, Juninho, arrived at Celtic from Middlesbrough on a straightforward contract, his only contract with the club, which was correctly registered with the football authorities. He only lasted eight months before agreeing to terminate his deal. Celtic made a payment of around £750k into an EBT the player had from before his time at the club.
Celtic informed HMRC of the details of their EBT transaction with Juninho and were told this was regarded as income, not a loan, and that they would need to pay tax. Celtic then paid tax due on top of the £750k which went to Juninho. It was a pointless and expensive exercise for Celtic, but they dealt with it honestly and openly.
Paul67 on CQN does seem to have the ear of insiders at Celtic – I’m not saying he’s gospel, but he does seem well sourced. From his article it was Boro that set up the trust and I think I read that Juninho or his agent asked for the severance to be put into the EBT.
Is it “another club’s trust” or is it the beneficiairy’s? I would have thought it was Juninho’s, after all it is administered by a third party and for the benefit of the employee, doesn’t it run independently once it is set up?
BRTH – thank goodness no one berrates me for my spelling typos!
Still – if you are becoming a target then it means you are being important in the race for the truth – take the criticsm as an accolade for your great posts. Mixing up Taylor and Kelly hardly negates the contents of your posts – if we were that good and were beyond mistakes, surely we would be earning loads of money working as professional journalists. Ahem!!!
I, for one, would be very interested to hear the dirt on Dermot Desmond.
Over to you, J McLure….
(If you can provide something substantial you’ll become an internet star on Rangers forums given their present manic strawclutchery.)
Night Terror says:
September 14, 2012 at 10:15
9 1 i Rate This
Refreshingly open and honest discussion on the RFC situation on that WHU board.
Shame we have to read about it from such a source to get a reasonable discussion without all the “agenda” crap.
========================================================================
NT…this scandal is now starting to be aired amongst my WHU friends in Essex…slowly but surely, the facts are starting to trickle down to them. Their biggest concern is “how did they manage to stiff HMRC for so long and for so much…?”
Thanks for the original link if it was your post which I cannot find now…duh!
J McClure – I agree – let’s have a public fit and proper disclosure made public on ALL major shareholders in every club.
Including CG;s 20 pals!
Wonder if it would be a good idea to have an FAQ section on this site. Even if the only question and answer is that of the Juninho EBT, it could save a lot of “clutter”.
Surely the Juninho EBT is similar to BIlly Dodds explaination of his EBT payment.
It was the balance of money contracturally due to each player when their contracts were terminated early.
Apparently no double contracts need to exist as the overall payment should have been detailed in the player registration documentation. (This appears to have been proven in Celtic’s case, SPL happy).
Celtic paid into the EBT (and presumably Juninho got a loan or whatever at a later date) but later agreed with Hector that tax should have been paid and therefore coughed up. (Tax man happy)
The main difference
Dodds believes that tax has been paid on his payment but only has Rangers word for it. (At present not proven either way, Taxman possibly still unhappy)
J Maclure says:
September 14, 2012 at 09:37
=======================
LOL
Why not just be honest and type “Please read this story about Dermot Desmond … whatabout him then”.
west ham united blogger “Wembley 1966” has it absolutely bang on ……………..:……………………………………:………….Of course he is – he’s all part of the master plan concocted by Murray over the last 3+ years after his share subscription offer flopped and there was no more cash available from the banks. The original plan was to liquidate Rangers and start afresh in the SPL with no debts. Murray sold Rangers to Whyte for £1 and paid off the £18m debt to Lloyds (who were demanding the debt to be repaid and who had a charge over Ibrox and the Murray Park training ground). Murray or his associates didn’t want to pay the £18m and not get it back if Rangers liquidated, so they invested in Ticketus who bought 4 years of season tickets in return for giving Whyte’s Rangers £20+m. Whyte also sold off the future catering revenues to Close Brothers in return for a few £m that provided some of the working capital they needed for last season. The plan was to see through last season, quickly liquidate the club and their friends in the SFA/SPL would just transfer the SPL licence to the new club who would start with no debts. The plan went wrong when they didn’t make it past the very first preliminary match in the Champions League (nor the resulting Europa League preliminary) and with no European revenues they resorted to not paying income tax and VAT to provide them the cashflow they needed. As a result HMRC forced them into administration and they’ve been on the back foot ever since.
Duff & Phelps were appointed by Craig Whyte – they had previously advised Rangers on the sale to Whyte, so they are possibly complicit in the scam to sell everything to Green for £5m. Green is creating a siege mentality and the notion that everyone is out to get Rangers. He needs to get the Rangers support on his side and to create the ‘hard done by’ feeling amongst them all. As a result of this he’s managed to get them to buy season tickets and turn up for matches – but where’s that money going – Ticketus are still involved and want their money back, Close Brothers want their money back and Craig Whyte wants paying for all his troubles.
Although there was a court hearing and the resulting judgement that said under Scottish law the Ticketus agreement could be deemed invalid, this is no longer the case as the agreement was willingly transferred from old Rangers to Sevco 5088 Ltd, an English company who had bought all the old Rangers assets. So now the agreement is between 2 English companies where it is valid. Sevco 5088 Ltd then transferred some of the assets (but not the Ticketus agreement) to Sevco Scotland Ltd (a Scottish company) who are the new Rangers. There has to be a Scottish company as license holders to play in Scotland – but they now owe Sevco 5088 Ltd for the Ticketus money. That’s why Rangers were briefly known as Sevco 5088 Ltd rather than the sale being directly to Sevco Scotland Ltd.
So how are they going to pay these people off and still try to run a club whose expenditure still outstrips their income. A share offer! Who’s going to buy the shares – the supporters? What are they going to buy shares in – the Club or the Company (unfortunately the Company, so if that goes bust they’ve lost their money again). How’s Green going to persuade them to invest – increase the siege mentality. He knows the titles will be stripped – but stir enough sh!t about them and declare that you’ll never take away our titles and the supporters think he’s even more of a hero. If the share offer fails, he’ll walk away and they’ll liquidate the company – he’ll say he tried his best but the SFA/SPL had it in for him – it was their fault not his. They’ll eventually sell Ibrox to someone so Ticketus and Close Brothers get their money back – it’s worth more if it can be sold to a football club that will play there, which could be another new incarnation of Rangers or someone buys Cowdenbeath Rangers and relocates them to Ibrox, changes the strip and drops the ‘Cowdenbeath’.
And Whyte – well his dad still holds the floating charge over the Murray Park training ground which is worth a few bob.
J…
IMO..We should listen to everyone/anyone who can not only justify but validate their claim to be heard..elders or not.
eg..
Yes,he has 30 years experience.
No,he most likely has 3 years experience,which has lasted 30 years.!
The Invisible Line says:
September 14, 2012 at 11:35
September 14, 2012 at 11:09
On RTC it was discussed at length – there is no seeping under any carpets.
From what I remember in statements made by Celtic and discussions on RTC it was payments to an EBT already set up by Boro for him that the money was paid into.
This was the check that was then done to see if thsi was ok ro not – the player and his agent had said no problem – but Celtic (good for them) wanted to ensure nothing was going to come back on them.
I have no issue with what they did – and if it helps any, Paul McConville did a piece at the time which I agreed with, that Celtic shoudl take the high ground and say we did nothing wrong and it is confirmed nothing was done, however we withdraw from that season for any games he played in and will accept a 0-3 loss. At the time I thought it would be helpful.
Now due to the nonsense eminating from leaders such as Chris Graham, this woudl be seen as an admittance of guilt and confirmation of their nonsense. So now I have changed my mind
To be fair, I don’t have green glasses – I am a much a critic of Celtic as anyone else – as my prior postings on here and RTC can show
Unfortunately, here I don’t see anything I would criticise Celtic for other than wasting money on him.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ok – that is much clearer now – thanks and I wouldn’t want Paul McC representing me in Court if he’s recommending confessing to something I didn’t do!!.
Re the time line – did Celtic go to HMRC and pay up as soon as soon as they got their accountants advice or did HMRC raise the issue firs
J Maclure says, September 14, 2012 at 09:37
J.Mac, you helpfully provide a link to the 184 page Glackin report, wrt D. Desmond and financial dealings in Ireland. Does this have any effect on Scottish football?
Statement just out from the SFA –
The Scottish FA can confirm that The Rangers Football Club Ltd have today received confirmation that full membership of the Association has been transferred.
get yer teeth into that!
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
September 14, 2012 at 12:13
Statement just out from the SFA –
The Scottish FA can confirm that The Rangers Football Club Ltd have today received confirmation that full membership of the Association has been transferred.
get yer teeth into that!
——————————————————————————————————————————–
Suppose this means that the SFA accept Green as a “fit & proper” person.
It also seems that the SFA accept Sevco as the same club as RFC(IA).This could make it easier to hand down any punishments etc due from the various hearings.
Dermot Desmond has been investigated and the Inspector came to a view with which DD vehemently disagreed and as there was no conclusive proof there the matter rests. There have been no criminal charges, no directorship bans or such like that I am aware of. DD continues to run many very successful and profitable businesses with out any outward signs of megalomania. He is also the major shareholder in a very successful and popular football club which runs on a more or less even keel where he appears to have installed an excellent management team and seems content to let them get on with it. Would that other clubs in Scotland were so lucky!
TJ..I was thinking exactly the same thing..!!
J Maclure says September 14, 2012 at 10:39
JMac,
Sorry I should have read later posts before responding. You’re right, it’s good to see open debate.
I don’t know how you’d “vet” buyers of shares, before they’re in the position of having to make a full bid. If you look at D. Desmond’s business record I don’t think you’ll see liquidation after liquidation; no accounts filed etc. etc.
Sadly,
with this announcement from the SFA,I can come to no other conclusion that every club in Scotland must be happy with the membership transfer.The SFA are,after all,the clubs themselves.No one has heard a dissenting voice.this decision has been ratified in private by all participants in the SFA.
CG can now operate as a rule unto himself.His participation could have been nipped in the bud,right there.Instead,he is now free to rant,rave,accuse,threaten anybody he likes and by their actions today,the SFA are compliant in allowing him to do so.
Don’t know how it works legally but it now seems that the SFA recognise”The Rangers” as a continuation of RFC(IA) but UEFA don’t.
If “The Rangers win the Scottish Cup,will the SFA put them forward as entrants to the Europa League,and will UEFA accept?.
Lets post with reasonable comments before accusing people of trolling.
Lets differ on opinions for at least a couple of posts before shooting down posters.
Are you joking?
This site tries to accomadate fans from other sites however your moderation process makes our comments outdated and simply purile. Why because you do not want others to join the debate.
Sorry, but your goal is to abuse rangers, and somehow not enter into the perfectably acceptable debate as to why, the SFA cheated. Why do both rangers and celtic fans have opposite but equal views on the spl $ sfl?
T J….
Lets face it….if he aint a member (SFA)..he cant be chucked oot ?
Torrevieja Johnbhoy says:
September 14, 2012 at 12:27
The decision is not a surprise, however it does seem rather quick.
“With great power comes great responsibility”
With T’Rangers becoming a full member of the SFA Green now has to live up to his fit and proper status and comply with the rules as laid down by the footballing authorities.
Any further rants, accustations and the like should be treated in the same way that Whyte was. The same way Romanov has been fined, the same way managers from other clubs have been centured for breeches of the rules etc etc.
It is back to us simnply wanting the rules to be applied to all members in a equal manner without fear or favour.
As you say he may feel it gives him impunity to let it rip.
Having had a go at Regan and Doncaster the alternative may be that they have finally grown a pair and want to ensure he is on the inside so they can keep him in check.
Does this mean that the “conditions” attached to TRFC’s SFA membership so far have all now been fulfilled?
can CO resign now then?
Can you actually have a rebate on your season ticket?
Angus says 14/9/12 @ 12:41 Yes except that he says he will not recognise the Commision or it’s findings!
I just looked at the SPL statement regarding the November hearings …
Oldco, Rangers FC and Newco are all quoted as having the right to appear.
Who exactly are these three apparently separate entities?
——
“Oldco and Rangers FC, who are named in the Issues contained in the Notice of Commission and alleged to have been in breach of SPL rules, will continue to have the right to appear and be represented at all hearings of the commission and to make such submissions as they think fit.
“Newco, as the current owner and operator of Rangers FC, although not alleged by the SPL to have committed any breach of SPL Rules, will also have the right to appear and be represented at all hearings of the commission and to make such submissions as it thinks fit.”
——
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
September 14, 2012 at 12:13
Statement just out from the SFA –
The Scottish FA can confirm that The Rangers Football Club Ltd have today received confirmation that full membership of the Association has been transferred.
==================================================
That must have been the slowest postal service ever!!
Is internet running slow?
This was announced on 3rd August.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19120224
Tried to buy Phil’s book in Watersons Sauchiehall st ,guy said they have sold out and are waiting for more to be printed .
jonny says:
September 14, 2012 at 13:14
Tried to buy Phil’s book in Watersons Sauchiehall st ,guy said they have sold out and are waiting for more to be printed .
…………………………………………………………………………………………….
Classic response
…but did you give the 2 tramps ootside a quid 😉
A Expert says:
September 14, 2012 at 11:09
I wasn’t suggesting there was a double contracts issue as the “facts” available appear to confirm this.
My confusion arises from the existence of a “Juninho EBT” (if indeed an EBT was involved) into which the payment was made. Players don’t set up EBT’s only clubs do and then contributions into it are earmarked for distribution to players via sub trusts within the EBT.
Which club set up the EBT? Celtic or Boro? Probably not Celtic as there is no disclosure in their accounts.
So it must have been Boro – why would Celtic pay the severance payment into another clubs EBT where it woud be allocated to the Juninho sub trust?
I think what I’m saying is that we don’t have all the facts here and we can’t sweep it under the carpet MSM style just because it doesn’t look good for Celtic. However, what we can say is that on discovering the “error” they acted with integrity to correct the position and well done to them for that.
============================
A retired High Court Judge and 2 QCs examining the evidence and reaching the decision that there is no case to answer is not the same as ” …we don’t have all the facts here and we can’t sweep it under the carpet MSM style just because it doesn’t look good for Celtic.”
That is just being silly.
Celtic have no case to answer, whether or not you are in possession of all of the facts. A properly constitured panel of appropriately qualified people in possession of the evidence have made that decision.
So in relation to Yorkie’s slating of the SPL (and indirectly the SFA too) which led to this post on which we are now commenting, the only announcement they can make is to confirm full membership?!?!
they wouldnt be entered into the Europa league as they dont have 3 years audited accounts
Nawlite says:
September 14, 2012 at 13:27
Good point but lets keep our fingers crossed that it has reached that ‘put up or shut up’ moment.
I believe the swift response form the SPL with regard to progressing with the investigation and the ‘others with EBT’s’ may give us some hope that people are saying enough is enough.
”If you don’t need to know, you don’t get to hear.” says:
September 14, 2012 at 12:39
8 0 Rate This
T J….
Lets face it….if he aint a member (SFA)..he cant be chucked oot ?
======
It is harder to throw someone out of your house than to not let them in through the door in the first place, unfortunately.
Doon the slope says:
September 14, 2012 at 11:39
I, for one, would be very interested to hear the dirt on Dermot Desmond.
Over to you, J McLure….
(If you can provide something substantial you’ll become an internet star on Rangers forums given their present manic strawclutchery.)
===================================
Strawclutchery has got to be the word of the week 😀
”If you don’t need to know, you don’t get to hear.” says:
September 14, 2012 at 13:23
.
…………………………………………………………………………………………….
Classic response
…but did you give the 2 tramps ootside a quid
—————————————————–
I didn’t know you were supposed to do that. When I got outside they said to me “any change mister” I replied “no, your still tramps”.
Just a thought, not that it’ll happen given Celtic’s silence (and don’t worry I’ not going there), but given the Juninho thing surfacing again, an interesting gambit might be…
Celtic say , sorry, we might have possibly have not done enough to check that all his payments were declared properly or in time to the SFA, and there might be an argument that the payments after he stopped playing should have been declared, so?..we’ll offer to accept a 3 0 loss in any game he played in on the condition that this applies to any other club in similar circumstances. That’s a reasonably fair principle, and it would draw a line under every clubs use of EBTs so we can move forward.
Well it gave me a momentary chuckle.
tomtom says:
September 14, 2012 at 13:58..
I didn’t know you were supposed to do that. When I got outside they said to me “any change mister” I replied “no, your still tramps”.
tt
Now that really made me laugh 🙂 🙂 🙂
A Expert says: September 14, 2012 at 11:09
I wasn’t suggesting there was a double contracts issue as the “facts” available appear to confirm this.
My confusion arises from the existence of a “Juninho EBT” (if indeed an EBT was involved) into which the payment was made. Players don’t set up EBT’s only clubs do and then contributions into it are earmarked for distribution to players via sub trusts within the EBT.
Which club set up the EBT? Celtic or Boro? Probably not Celtic as there is no disclosure in their accounts.
So it must have been Boro – why would Celtic pay the severance payment into another clubs EBT where it woud be allocated to the Juninho sub trust?
I think what I’m saying is that we don’t have all the facts here and we can’t sweep it under the carpet MSM style just because it doesn’t look good for Celtic. However, what we can say is that on discovering the “error” they acted with integrity to correct the position and well done to them for that.
================================
The best source of information is Celtic’s own accounts for 2004/05. (page 37 to be exact)
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I’m happy enough that the payment is totally above board.
That said, any payment agreed as early termination of of a contract is unlikely to have been detailed in a players contract unless it comes under a catch-all that the club will pay the balance of the original deal in the event of early termination (by the club / player / either party).
The easy out for Celtic is that it was a termination payment to buy out the rest of the contract. That means it was not a payment related to playing football. It is quite the reverse, i.e. it was a payment for not playing football. (the same applies to Billy Dodds with RFC)
The EBT element is immaterial to the SPL & SFA. The method of payment is of no interest to the footballing authorities, although the tax liability is obviously of interest to HMRC
easyJambo says:
September 14, 2012 at 14:11
Sums up the Juninho /Dodds issue nicely as far as I can see.
However note the inclusion of the wording from the Celtic accounts.
This EBT scheme clearly states that it could benefit “former employees or their families or charities.”
Therefore presumably if the trustees of the EBT were to, let us say, provide benefit to Tommy Burns’ widow and family then nobody would raise an eyebrow.
If the Rangers scheme was running in a similar manner then the payment of benefit to former employees, such a a certain Mr G Souness may well be above board assuming all tax liabilities are settled etc.
Therefore we have a situation where Mr Souness can as appears to be the case, with some possible justification say its nobody’s business but his or he can come out an explain what it was all about given he was managing other football teams at the time, thus raising the question of collusion or a conflict of interest.
Just wondering if all the references to Souness and Sir Cardigan are not that nuclear as some are predicting/hoping for.
Keevins was on Talksport this morning talking about the Juninho EBT and linking it to the ongoing investigation into the dual contracts issue at The Glasgow Franchise, His lack of knowledge is astounding for someone who is PAID to be up to speed with such matters.
I’m afraid I can take no more of this man, I was driving and fellow motorists must have thought I was having a fit of some description as he intoned “Neither YOU, nor I, nor indeed Richard have the knowledge blah,blah,blah…claptrap,claptrap,claptrap…I’ve started so I’ll finish even though I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what I am talking about nor,indeed,what I am going to say next to complete this sentence”. All,of course, delivered in an arrogant,sanctimonious,nasal drone.
The upshot of his forensic examination of the situation is that we will have an outcome in November once someone who knows what they are doing looks at the available informatiion.
He contributes NOTHING to the debate and brings NOTHING to the table, not even an opinion…his whole stance appears to be “I’m too daft to understand all this”.
How does he get away with it? I think we should be told,
Yours,
Flabbergasted & Frustrated
Glasgow
Forgive the rant, but i think I did, literally, have steam coming out of my ears…..
A Expert,
I’m hearing you. I voiced a similar concern yesterday, for which I recieved mega T’sD and a comment about me being a whatabooter, brain dead and one that I did’nt get, but assumed it was a put down. I had some precise explanations as to why it is a non issue, even the condescending sounding ones, much appretiated. Maybe if I was a bit more cleverererer, I would’nt feel as if their is still a major carve up in the offiing.
It appears some people on here know the answers as to what is registered at the SFA as fact, without any detail that I know of being transparent.
I’m sure the main defense on “dual” contracts from OldClub is that it was a “clerical error”. So did the first person up in front of the board have any clerical issues? Was it registered even if not in use until he left? Did it need to be registered? There have been cases indicated long before his, why was he up first? etc etc. Any detail would inform us of what is to be accepted from the panel investigating all the other registration issues, and what is available WRT records from their end. Or are they being careful not to be held to any guidlines.
There have been absolutely no punishments handed out that have been paid or served properly, thanks to the help of the authorities, only consequences. I just hope that all bases are covered on the subject. I will be over the moon if this is “nailed on” as so many people seem to think. It would be the first.
I have not caught up properly for the day, if the SPL/SFA have shown details of what was registered in the case, I’ll get my coat. Sorry to those of superior being who have wasted their time on this done to death subject.
WOTTPI says:
September 14, 2012 at 14:32
Just wondering if all the references to Souness and Sir Cardigan are not that nuclear as some are predicting/hoping for.
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Yip all above board then, depending of course if anything happened in the same year as they were payed,like transfers, or loan deals etc. between two clubs, then it may not have been quite so innocent.
Rosemary aint going to be signing any players either to or from Celtic.
Torrevieja Johnbhoy says:
September 14, 2012 at 12:32
If “The Rangers win the Scottish Cup,will the SFA put them forward as entrants to the Europa League,and will UEFA accept?.
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That is Scottish Football’s “West Lothian” question and should be asked of the SFA & MSM at every opportunity.
+ I would like to associate myself with the recent remarks in praise of Auldheid’s contribution to
multiple forums over the past few years. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing him advocate in public meetings and I can report he can also elegantly articulate his vast knowledge ‘on his feet’.
In relation to my earlier rant about Keevins, it’s just that I don’t get it. Why would a national radio station go to the bother of bringing on a guest, albeit by telephone, to speak of a matter of which he clearly has not a clue!
It brought to mind a quote from the song Psycho Killer by, a famous Glaswegian, David Byrne of Talking Heads fame…
“When I have nothing to say my lips are sealed”…
or as Jim Royle from the Royle Family might have said
” Journalist my a***”
WHO’s PARANOID…NOW
http://www.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=937%3Aspl-celtic-conlicts-of-interest&catid=110%3Aother&Itemid=618
all that time and effort to put this into print…what an a r s e !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Juninho EBT was dissected on RTC months ago …. I believe it was Riley (?) Ex BoE that spotted and rectified the situation ….. But dig if you must !
Mr Bunny, thanks for the steer to Alan Sharp. I finally got my copy of Phil’s book from Waterstones today, I’m in NE England, they had to have it sent down from Edinburgh as English branches are not stocking it.
BBC website:
Defender Lee Wallace pens new deal at Rangers
Rangers defender Lee Wallace has signed a new five-year deal with the Ibrox club.
The new contract will keep left-sided full-back Wallace at Ibrox until 2017.
——-
Imagine being kept at Ibrox until 2017, several years after football stopped being played there.
🙂
As I interpret it … Sevco are banned for 3 years as a newco …. That is the next 3 times they qualify they will be refused …. Could be longer than 3 years … Could be hvnners o years !
abigboydiditandranaway says:
September 14, 2012 at 14:56
David Byrne is a native of Dumbarton, Mark and David Knopfler of Dire Straits are Glaswegians.
Can someone please unlock the door of Der Bomber’s bunker and lets have an update from him,surely his follower’s of the earth shaking speech with their chants of that’s my Bomber ,gaun yerself big man ,you tell them who we are etc etc must be worried as to his silence ,are they not.
We should be told
miki67 says:
September 14, 2012 at 15:12
Lies, damn’ lies, and RangersMedia. The desperation is palpable.
——–
Only in a small percentage of posters there. The majority are still completely blind to what is being done to them. All this talk of changing the lyrics to Billy Boys, how Lee Wallace is an absolute legend and, perhaps most worryingly, how Mr Charles is the greatest thing that’s ever happened to them.
The other candidate for “perhaps most woryingly” is their utter refusal to accept that the Juninho EBT has been dealt with and is no longer news.
Tramp – Any change, mister?
Man at Waterstones – Nah, you’re still tramps.
Tramp – Can I use yer toilet?
MAW – Certainly not!
Tramp – I thought you’d say that. That’s why I p@shed all over yer Encyclopedia Britannicas.
Seriously, I’m needin a sh1t.
MAW – Well there’s one over there behind that lampost.
Tramp – Look I’m starving. I haven’t put a bite to eat in ma mouth for four days.
MAW – Well you’ll need to force yersel.
Tramp – Have you not even got some of yesterday’s soup?
MAW – Aye, come back the morn!
Tramp – Have you not even got some auld beer bottles I could collect the money on?
MAW – Do I look like the type of gentleman who would drink alcohol?
Tramp – Well have you any empty vinegar bottles?
I’ll get ma Big Issue.
The other candidate for “perhaps most woryingly” is their utter refusal to accept that the Juninho EBT has been dealt with and is no longer news.
As long as it does’nt become a precedent, I dont care what it is.
spanner says:
September 14, 012 at 15:20
You are correct…and as a longstanding fan of the man in his myriad guises I should have known better( even when you think you know it does no harm to check).
Apologies, David Byrne is, as I knew but somehow forgot, indeed a son of Dumbarton. Maybe my “Mind” playing tricks on me, see what i did there?
Don’t know if I’ll bother claiming the Knopfler boys though!!!
Insomniac says:
September 14, 2012 at 14:48
————————————-
I, your question, if the team calling itself Rangers win the Scottish Cup will the SFA put them forward for the Europa league, is a timely reminder to everyone that the 3 year exclusion from Europe for Sevco is in fact a four year one.
For a club to be considered for admission to a UEFA competition, it has to provide by 31 March (i.e. 3 months before the draw for the UEFA competitions is made) 3 years’ worth of audited accounts.
Sevco only started in May 2012 and, if it follows football club tradition, will make up its accounts to 31 May annually.
It will therefore be unable to produce 3 years’ of audited accounts until its May 2015 accounts are audited. That means 31 March 2016 is the earliest Sevco can provide 3 years’ worth of accounts to UEFA, so the competitions for the 2016/17 year are the first competitions for which Sevco would be eligible, assuming (a) it is still trading and (b) it actually qualifies for a European competition during season 2015/16.
That is four years without European football and let no-one forget it.
abigboydiditandranaway says:
September 14, 2012 at 15:42
spanner says:
You are correct…and as a longstanding fan of the man in his myriad guises I should have known better( even when you think you know it does no harm to check).
Apologies, David Byrne is, as I knew but somehow forgot, indeed a son of Dumbarton. Maybe my “Mind” playing tricks on me, see what i did there?
*** After all, we are dealin with some Slippery People ***
Don’t know if I’ll bother claiming the Knopfler boys though!!!
*** Yeh We could also find ourselves in Dire Straits ***
Al get me Rickenbacker 360 🙂
WOTTPI says: September 14, 2012 at 14:32
the inclusion of the wording from the Celtic accounts.
This EBT scheme clearly states that it could benefit “former employees or their families or charities.”
Therefore presumably if the trustees of the EBT were to, let us say, provide benefit to Tommy Burns’ widow and family then nobody would raise an eyebrow.
=============================================
There is every chance that the EBT route was used to benefit Tommy Burns’ widow and family, although Celtic have never specifically stated that an EBT was used.
A note from Celtic’s 2008 accounts reads as follows
I take it Wallace has actually been paid for in full then? And Dundee Utd have been paid and east fife and Rapid Vienna etc etc if sevco have been made full members of the SFA !?!? On keevins the man is a useless, arrogant little man filled with hatred of all things modern, someone called him pre-historic on SSB last night …..so apt! 🙂
abigboydiditandranaway says:
September 14, 2012 at 15:42
I think we can safely claim them.
Mark Knopfler was born in Glasgow, SCOTLAND, on the 12th of August 1949. He was around seven years old when the Knopfler family moved to Newcastle-Upon-Tyne in the North-East of England
http://bit.ly/Ub4kGX
All these players signed on 5 year contracts…..
Could CG be planning to sack sally in the summer then sell all the players/stadium and training ground and do a runner?
abigboydiditandranaway says:
September 14, 2012 at 14:40
22 0 Rate This
Keevins was on Talksport this morning talking about the Juninho EBT and linking it to the ongoing investigation into the dual contracts issue at The Glasgow Franchise,
=============
His first remark was that it was ‘a can of worms’ and it had Keys&Gray slabbering audibly.
By the end of the piece even they knew that nothing that he had said had lived up to his own headline.
You know that he is lost when not only does he elongate the enunciation of the judge’s name but also includes his first name.
Well, maybe, it is more accurate to say that you know that he is lost when he starts talking!
abigboydiditandranaway says:
September 14, 2012 at 14:56
10 0 Rate This
In relation to my earlier rant about Keevins, it’s just that I don’t get it. Why would a national radio station go to the bother of bringing on a guest, albeit by telephone, to speak of a matter of which he clearly has not a clue!
______________
he was also introduced as someone close to happenings at celtic
is he not banned from celtic park 🙂
I was driving my van through rural Cheshire when Keevins was on. I was screaming at my radio for the entirety of the interview-what an incompetent clown of a man.
Keys and Gray are only marginally better
For J Maclure
:
September 14, 2012 at 10:39
The results are in from this mornings post
QUESTION
Should all Scottish Football Club Owners, Chairmen and CEO’s undergo a regular and constantly reviewed fit and proper test by the SFA and should the results be made public?
TU = Yes 41 v TD = No 4
Therefore as predicted and open door with 10 to 1 in favour of having key people in all clubs passing regular sniff tests. If this site is dominated by hoops fans then we must take it they are as interested in making sure their guys are a fine and upstanding as the next guy.
The 4 who are not in favour are more than welcome to put forward their views but I doubt it is going to be a ’12 Angry Men’ situation where they turn the 41.
I look forward to your next piece of whatabootery.
Please note that when things got quiet the other week there was plenty chat about the national team and bemoaning the lack of skills etc.
I am sure TSFM will discuss other matters outwith T’Rangers but it will have to be an issue that there is real concern about or a proper debate is to be had.
Kindred Spirit says:
September 14, 2012 at 16:18
Was thinking that way myself. The 5 year thing is just to try and ensure if anyones does go then then get some decent compo.
Given that Alexander and McCullouch’s contracts were coming to an end what chance of them being offered contracts until they are both 39. 🙂
Auchinstarry says:
September 14, 2012 at 11:05
23 0 i
Rate This
Zendavista @23-53pm
Excellent link Zenda. These West Ham fans seem to have more knowledge on the Rankers saga than the entire MSM.
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Auchinstarry…in addition to fans of WHU, I bumped into a fan of THFC in my local today. In addition to the Arsenal fans I know, they are now starting to “get the message”
Sitting quietly in the corner, reading “Downfall”, (by PMG) he approached me and said…”how do you people up there tolerate that staff…?”
Sadly, I had no answer for him…!
Well I had, but both of us had to get back to work!
PS tanks to Zendavista for the original link!
Can Sevco choose to make up their first audited accounts to a date within the twelve month period as a cunning plan to shorten the four year period referred to by Slimshady?