Good Morning,
A number of years ago I sat and watched while the late David Will, one time chairman of Brechin City, former President of the Scottish Football Association and Vice President of FIFA, peered over the upper rims of his glasses at the assembled board and management of St Johnstone Football Club and proceeded to brand them all as a “shower of thrawn buggers!”.
The reason for the tongue in cheek outburst from Scotland’s highest ranking official from the world of football was the organisation of the centenary dinner celebrating 100 years of the Perth Club— which the club saw fit to hold well outside the centenary year. Will had been invited to speak as a guest at the dinner ( yes Mr Cosgrove I was there ), along with then manager Alex Totten and Craigie Veitch the former sports editor of the Scotsman.
For those who are not familiar with old Scots words, Thrawn can have a couple of meanings which are very similar. If someone is being obstinate, stubborn, uncompromising, perverse or intractable then in auld Scots we say that he or she is being thrawn. Equally, the original meaning has been said to be crooked, twisted, misshapen or deformed. A tree could be thrawn, as could someone’s arm or other part of the body. To be thrawn-leggit was to have a crooked leg.
These meanings then sort of morphed into meanings like difficult or contrary, and so twisted and crooked in that sense, and when David Will called St Johnstone a shower of “thrawn Buggers” he meant that they were being awkward, contrary and perverse in holding a centenary dinner when it wasn’t actually the centenary. He was of course being lighthearted.
That episode came to mind this week when I read the latest statements from Alastair Johnston and Charles Green. Both set out an argument which suits their individual purposes and adopted perspectives, and both perhaps chose to ignore counter argument or salient facts which would obviously derail their logic and train of thought. With the greatest of respect to both men— what a pair of thrawn buggers!!!
In that vein let me recap as to where I think we stand on this September morn in relation to the EBT debate, the question of “Club” and the Independent enquiry into payment outwith contract.
Clearly, all of these issues are closely linked but each stands in its own wee pocket or chapter, and when taken together they serve to make a whole book or paint an overall scene.
The EBT issue has been repeatedly explained on the RTC blog and elsewhere but at the risk of repeating what is already known the fundamentals are as follows:
Employee Benefits Trusts under certain circumstances are or were a perfectly legal business and accounting tool.
However, in order for the trusts to provide substantial tax advantages, any reward, remuneration or compensation they provide to a beneficiary must not form part of their contract of employment or work package. If this rule is not strictly adhered to, then tax is payable on the sums “given” to the employee, with the employer being liable for tax and national insurance contributions of any employee.
It is alleged by HMRC, that a number of persons who were at one time employed by Rangers PLC have received benefits by way of a specific EBT. Further, the benefits which these employees received were clearly related to their contracts of employment and so these payments are liable to tax, together with interest for late payment and penalties for non-declaration and so on.
This is denied by Rangers PLC and by Murray International Holdings, and MIH have instigated and conducted an appeal against the HMRC view, with that appeal being determined by an independent tax tribunal (The FTT). The basis of their argument appears to be that the benefits received by the beneficiaries were nothing to do with MIH or Rangers and that these payments were purely discretionary and at the instance of the trustees of the trusts concerned– none of whom have any connection with Rangers PLC or MIH. Therefore– there is no tax payable.
Against this there seems to be a plethora of evidence which contradicts this stance including a number of side letters or second contracts which show that any payments to these EBT’s were indeed contractual and part of an overall contract of employment “package”– and if that is deemed to be the case then tax, interest and penalties are indeed, and always were, due.
These contracts or side letters then seem to fly in the face of the documentation lodged with the SPL and later the SFA, as both bodies require sight of all contractual documentation relating to players remuneration and their terms and conditions of employment. Contracts have to be in standard form and lodged with the appropriate bodies to ensure that the player is in fact properly registered to play for the team.
Further, the rules of football prohibit any player being paid by a third party, and so payments made to a player by someone other than his employer is a breach of that rule.
It is this issue that the Nimmo Smith Tribunal is to investigate and rule upon.
For their part, Rangers PLC appear to argue that the existence of EBT’s were always declared in the notes of their accounts, and so the footballing authorities should have known that they were in use at the club. More recently, Alastair Johnston has stated that the club did receive a request for clarification from the SFA in 2011 to which the Rangers PLC board responded disclosing documents ( although he does not specify what documents ) over and above the normal documentation sent re player contracts. Johnston has gone on to state that there was no response or follow up whatsoever from the SFA, and the appropriate UEFA licence simply arrived in the post without further ado. He concludes that as a result of the documentation sent, the SFA must have known at that time that the EBT payments were being used for “player compensation” purposes.
Now, AJ argues that if any misdemeanour or breach of rules has occurred it does not merit the much discussed and publicised “stripping of titles” and that any failure on the part of the Rangers PLC board amounts to no more than an oversight or an administrative error which does not justify the ultimate penalty.
Let’s just pause there and remember who and what AJ actually is in life. Alastair Johnston holds the posts of vice-chairman and member of the board of directors of International Management Group, the leading international sports and entertainment group. Now everyone knows that IMG was formed by Mark McCormack and represents sports stars as their agent. However what is less well known is that the majority of IMG’s work comes from broadcasting – not necessarily mainstream broadcasting – but the broadcasting of certain events to mobile phones and so on and in this context the company works with the likes of Vodafone and other major service providers in the sector. Further the company has the rights to market and broadcast the sports activities of a huge number of schools and colleges in the US as well as music channels, entertainment and so on.
I raise this aspect for one very important reason.
That entire industry is based on one thing and one thing only and that is………… a Licensing system. Broadcasters of any sort obtain the rights to broadcast by way of a licence. They licence content, they licence by area and geographical location, they licence for set time periods,they share licences, sell licences, create licences and terminate licences. Without a licence, they can have all the technology in the world, all the necessary content and so on but they are not able to show it, sell it and profit from it. Proper licensing is vital!
Further, they are very precious about licences- and rightly so– because unless they have the licences tightly tied up, others in the same field can attempt to steal their content, their territory and their rights– all of which are valuable assets.
So go back again and look at all AJ’s comments about proper registration of contracts, about proper administration of documents and licence applications for players, UEFA competition and so against the background of him being a grand fromage in a major company whose absolute lifeblood depends upon proper licensing.
Do you remotely believe that the continual and prolonged inability to properly declare all relevent contracts and player documentation to a licensing body ( both SFA and SPL in this instance) can be merely an oversight or an administrative error?
Further, take a look at the accounts for Rangers PLC at least in the year ended 2005, where it is made very clear that the football management side of the business was working extremely closely with the board in all business and contract matters.
The SFA in particular fulfills a licencing function– a function which is so important that without passing the tests laid down, any club of no matter what size simply cannot play or participate in the sole sphere it is designed to participate and play in. There are strict rules about licences, and a duty on the SFA as well as Rangers PLC to make sure that all of the conditions that must be fulfilled in order to gain a licence have in fact been met. It is not a process that should be left to chance or a process that any major organisation would leave to a junior member of staff or without there being a company defined process and procedure to ensure that the applications and compliance issues are properly dealt with.
Further, if you think about how a footballer player signs for a club– the negotiations, the transfer fee, the personal terms, the contracts, the agents commission and so on, you will realise that a player signing and the terms of his contract – or contracts for that matter – cannot simply come about by accident and outwith the boards knowledge or consent.
In short, it is impossible. It is also impossible, in my respectful opinion, to proceed on a decade long process of administrative errors involving the repeated failure to disclose secondary contracts or side letters. As someone once said to me, there comes a point where a continued and continual series of repeated errors or omissions starts to look suspiciously like a plan!
However, if we were to take AJ’s comments at face value, and accept that there were repeated failures on the part of the Rangers Board by accident, then to be honest there would be every right for shareholders and investors to hold the Directors liable for such negligence. Directors regularly and properly insure themselves against such claims– so I wonder if AJ has paid his insurance premiums?
Further, if he as Chairman presided over such mismanagement, then no doubt his time at IMG is limited as I doubt such an organisation could afford to have such a dunderheid permanently ensconced in a senior managerial position.
However, AJ appears to be a positively straightforward chap when compared to Mr Green.
He of course is on record as saying that if the proposed CVA were to be rejected and the club forced into liquidation then the club dies, the history dies, and so on and so forth– but of course that was yesterday or the week before or even the week or months before that. That was the message that Mr Green wanted to convey at that time in the hope that HMRC would buckle down and accept the proposals.
Now, Mr Green seeks to sing a different tune, and recently latched on to Lord Nimmo Smith’s comments about the “club” being a continuing entity and capable of transfer from one owner to the next. He muses that if that is the case then the “club” may well in fact still be a member of the SPL and the SFA as no matter what happened to Rangers PLC, Rangers FC are ” a continuing entity” and therefore should not be forced to apply to rejoin any body which it was always a member of– such as the SPL and the SFA. Of course this then means that all the history and so on remains– despite what he himself said earlier!
Now of course, Charles makes for a good soundbite and is mad keen to ensure that as many Rangers fans as possible take up shares in “the club” when he offers them for sale.
Yet there is the problem,– shares in what are being offered for sale? According to Charles– and following his logic— he can offer as many shares in the Rangers Football Club Ltd for sale as he wants — but that company will not actually be Rangers FC– will it? If Rangers PLC was not actually Rangers FC– then what was it that David Murray was offering for sale all those years ago? Or could it be that Charles has just got it plain wrong?
You see for some reason he did not quote Lord Nimmo Smith in full– especially that part where the learned judge gave a brief description of his interpretation of the law of clubs.
For example Charles chooses not to comment on this sentence from the learned judge:
“This is not to say that a Club has legal personality, separate from and additional to the legal personality of its owner and operator. We are satisfied that it does not, and Mr McKenzie did not seek to argue otherwise. So a Club cannot, lacking legal personality, enter into a contract by itself. But it can be affected by the contractual obligations of its owner and operator.”
Earlier, Nimmo Smith said this:
“While it no doubt depends on individual circumstances what exactly is comprised in the undertaking of any particular Club, it would at the least comprise its name, the contracts with its players, its manager and other staff, and its ground, even though these may change from time to time.”
So let’s pause there.
A club is an undertaking— in other words any type of loose arrangement involving a group of people with a common purpose. If a club is not an incorporated club ( a limited company ) then to be anything other than a loose idea of a few folk getting together for a common purpose such as a holiday or a meal or to read a book or anything else– then of course it should have a formal constitution and a set of rules for its members.
So– where is the constitution for Rangers Football Club? Where are its rules of admission which says who can join? Are there certain rules that preclude you from joining? Is there a set limit on how many members there can be at any one time? Who are the officers of this club?
At the current time, Mr Green seems to be very keen on everything British and everything of a loyal and royal nature. So here is a quote from the pages of the Royal Yachting Association of Great Britain on the legal status of unincorporated clubs and so on.
“Since an unincorporated club has no legal status, it is incapable itself of owning property or being party to a contract. It is therefore standard practice to appoint trustees, who are usually required in the rules to comply with committee instructions, to hold the property (whether freehold land and buildings, yachts or a long leasehold of a reservoir) on behalf of the club members.”
Eh going by that statement – Rangers FC never owned Ibrox or Murray Park– and indeed can never own Ibrox and Murray Park. Someone had to be the trustee.
Further, it can never have been granted a licence to play football— you can’t grant a right to a non legal entity or to a body which has no legal status. You cannot accept a licensing application from a body which has no legal status. You cannot be employed by a body with no legal status.
Rangers FC has no constitution, no legal persona, is not allowed to own property ( heritable, moveable or intellectual), can’t enter into contracts and so on.
In short, Rangers FC is a body with no legal status– it does not exist and has never existed— unless it is to be found within the confines of Rangers PLC which everyone now recognises is in Administration and will soon be liquidated.
Still don’t believe me?
Ok here is a recent release by the Scottish legal commission setting out changes that they want to make to the law so that “clubs” can gain some legal status:
“In Scotland, and indeed throughout the United Kingdom, unincorporated associations are not recognised as entities separate from their members. Consequently, such organisations cannot carry out acts such as entering into contracts, owning property or engaging employees. The lack of legal personality can also give rise to unfortunate, and perhaps unforeseen, repercussions for members. For example, it is possible that, under the current law, a member of an unincorporated association could, by virtue of that membership alone, find himself or herself personally liable in delict to a third party injured at an event organised by the association. Further difficulties relating to this area of the law are set out in our Discussion Paper on Unincorporated Associations (DP 140) which was published at the end of 2008.
Our Report recommends a simple regime, with the minimum of administrative burdens, to ensure that associations and clubs are recognised as legal entities. Separate legal personality will be accorded to associations which satisfy certain conditions. The main conditions are that the association has at least two members; that its objects do not include making a profit for its members; and that it has a constitution containing certain minimum specified provisions. These provisions are: the association’s name; its purpose; membership criteria; the procedure for the election or appointment of those managing it; the powers and duties of its office-bearers; the rules for distributing its assets if it is dissolved; and the procedure for amending its constitution. Many associations will already have constitutions which contain these provisions but, for those which do not, we anticipate that style constitutions will be made available, free of charge, on the websites of organisations such as the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations”
Maybe Charles should seek some advice from the Scottish Council on Voluntary organisations? And perhaps he should note that part about not making a profit for members too!
Then again, as Lord Nimmo Smith has said the actual status of a club and who or what a club is depends on individual circumstances. So with regard to Rangers, let’s look at who would know– for example, who did Charles get “Rangers” from? Duff and Phelps of course — so what do they say?
Well they have stuck to their guns because in each and every report that they have issued to the court, the shareholders and the creditors they have included the following definition:
| Rangers / the Company / the Club | The Rangers Football Club Plc (In Administration), Ibrox Stadium, Glasgow, G51 2XD (Company number SC004276); |
Now that doesn’t really help Charles does it.
Ok so, lets ignore Craig Whyte because everyone knows that he was a diddy— let’s go to folk that are far more sensible– how about the Board of Rangers PLC before Craig Whyte– what did they have to say:
Well, here is a statement from May 2011 which seems to set out who and what the then Directors thought amounted to the club– and let’s face it– they should know!
“Further to today’s statement from Wavetower Limited (“the acquirer”), the Independent Board Committee of The Rangers Football Club plc (“the club”), comprising Alastair Johnston, Martin Bain, John Greig, John McClelland and Donald McIntyre, (”IBC”) would like to make the following statement:
“In recent weeks the IBC has been engaged with the acquirer and has secured an enhanced financial commitment from Wavetower for future investment into the club. The decision on the sale and purchase of the majority shareholding in the club firmly and ultimately rests between Murray MHL Limited (“MHL”) and Lloyds Banking Group (“LBG”).
“Although the IBC has no power to block the transaction, following its enquiries, the IBC and Wavetower have differing views on the future revenue generation and cash requirements of the club and the IBC is concerned about a lack of clarity on how future cash requirements would be met, particularly any liability arising from the outstanding HMRC case.
“Wavetower is purchasing MHL’s 85% shareholding in the club for £1 and the club’s indebtedness with LBG is to be assigned to Wavetower. This share transaction would ordinarily trigger a requirement on Wavetower under Rule Nine of The Takeover Code for a mandatory offer to be made to the other shareholders.
“Given this transaction structure and following discussions with the Takeover Panel, the IBC considers there to be no purpose in the acquirer making such an offer to acquire all other shareholdings at effectively nil value per share. Accordingly the IBC has agreed that the offer period for the club will now end.
“In agreeing that no offer should be made to all shareholders the IBC has insisted that the acquirer issues a document to all shareholders setting out the full terms of the transaction, comprehensive details on the acquirer and the sources of its funding and giving firm commitments to agreed future investment in the club.
“The IBC is committed to ensure that the transaction and future investment and funding proposals should be transparent to all the shareholders and supporters of the club”
Ah— that doesn’t really help Charles Green’s current argument either does it?
So here we are, on the cusp of the FTT ruling, with a share offering in the offing, and SPL enquiry scheduled for November and no doubt Mark Daly and the Panorama team beavering away in the background getting ready for another documentary.
The decision of the FTT may reveal yet more of what the bold AJ describes as “Administrative errors” by way of failing to administer EBT’s properly so resulting in a massive tax bill, and the SPL enquiry may reveal further “Administrative errors” in failing to properly record player contracts for a decade, with the result that players were never properly registered in the first place and so were illegal players during championship winning games.
Yet all that is history and in the past.
Today’s Rangers has a new hero, a new commander– even though who he works for is a closely guarded secret and remains a mystery to most of us who may be interested to find out who Charles Green really is and who he represents. He seems to attack certain quarters then retreat, antagonise and appease, and has a habit of constantly contradicting himself when it suits.
In the interim he reminds me of the most famous creation of the American writer Timothy Zahn who brought about a revival in the fortunes of the Star Wars franchise, bringing it widespread attention for the first time in years. He did this by creating a new villain to follow in the footsteps of the administratively challenged and ultimately vanquished Darth Vader.
Zahn describes this new villain’s command style as considerably different from that of Darth Vader and other typical Imperial commanders; instead of punishing failure and dissent, he promotes creativity among his crew and accepts ideas from subordinates. He is a tactical genius who has made extensive study of military intelligence and art, and is willing to retreat instead of making a stand in a losing battle.
His full name and his true origins are only known to a few select individuals of the Empire and the New Republic.
To quote Wikipedia:
“His name is ………… reminiscent of the old Scots word meaning Twisted ot Crooked.
The character’s name is……….. Thrawn.
I suspect that we are about to see some pretty Thrawn statements from a shower of Thrawn buggers as the late David Will would have said!
creepylurker says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 08:29
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 08:34
Thanks for the replies – and the nature of them too. The spirit of RTC and Corsica live
on in the columns of these pages.
I’m going to try to reply as best I can without speculation. Jabba and Wiggy’s roles in this debacle have yet to be fully defined….although it’s only natural to come to the conclusion you have, given the information vacuum surrounding the names missing from Mark Daly’s EBT list. It’s
the lack of transparency that fuels much of the speculation but, hey, that’s what you get when
you try to con the football fans of Scotland. Did Wiggy Smith use his position to circumvent
the rules on behalf or Rangers whilst he was at the SFA? Of course he did! That’s why he was placed there, in my opinion. Given the information that was in the public domain by as early as 2006 onwards there was no way Gordon Smith did not know what was going on. But how important is he in the grand scheme of lies, fraud and deception? Pivotal – yes, but just a small
cog in a big wheel of corruption. Again, only my opinion based on the available evidence.
There is the small matter of Defamation, though, and unless and until Smith and Traynor
are proven to be implicated I urge caution. There has been hints of injunctions in place and if that’s the case, then even this innocuous reply has broken it.
So, I’ll ask the experts just this once, and retreat. Is there an injunction in place?
BRTH says;
This is denied by Rangers PLC and by Murray International Holdings, and MIH have instigated and conducted an appeal against the HMRC view, with that appeal being determined by an independent tax tribunal (The FTT). The basis of their argument appears to be that the benefits received by the beneficiaries were nothing to do with MIH or Rangers and that these payments were purely discretionary and at the instance of the trustees of the trusts concerned– none of whom have any connection with Rangers PLC or MIH. Therefore– there is no tax payable.
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So we have not yet got a result from the FTT, so why are you so sure that these payments were non discretionary, I.E contractual?
Surely if they were contractual, the whole FTT process would have been concluded in a matter of weeks?
Should have said earlier, and to my shame forgot …
I am not a lover of poetry, but Posmill’s wordsmithery has enhanced us all even further, A great read, and wonderful play on the language (which I do love).
I await the Wobbly Award being conferred 🙂
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 08:40
BBC Employees tax avoidance scheme. Mr Traynor perhaps a participant?
“Being paid through a personal service company, rather than PAYE, allows the recipient to pay corporation tax of 21 per cent on their firm’s earnings, rather than income tax of up to 50 per cent, saving thousands of pounds a year.
The BBC also avoids paying National Insurance contributions when paying employees this way.”
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The Telegraph article is a wee bit confused.
The “recipient” does not pay corporation tax; the company pays corporation tax. I know that some people do confuse the company account with their personal account (Azil Nadir being a recent example).
However, most people who operate freelance via a limited company will receive salary from the company account in the same way as any other employee. At this point, income tax and NI are applied at the going rate. The only advantage to the freelance is that, as a shareholder in his own company, he can receive dividends which do not attract NI, but are taxable as income.
From the BBC’s point of view, contracting in this way keeps the “staff” numbers down; it’s a trick used by all private industry too.
davis58 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 12:43(Edit)
So we have not yet got a result from the FTT, so why are you so sure that these payments were non discretionary, I.E contractual?
Surely if they were contractual, the whole FTT process would have been concluded in a matter of weeks?
__________________________________________________
Surely that question is 180 degrees out of phase with reality?
TSFM says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 12:50
Surely that question is 180 degrees out of phase with reality?
___________________________________________________________
Can you explain why> I have worked in the IT and Telecoms industry as a contractor under a private Ltd company for the last 12 years, so please tell me what is wrong with that?
campsiejoe says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 11:48
‘..Make no mistake, all of them are complicit to a greater or lesser degree, and the last thing they want is to expose their own part in the biggest scandal ever in Scottish sport.’
——
What I am particularly interested in finding out is the point where ‘conspirators’ of any kind begin to realise that ‘hanging together’ in complicit silence will not save them from ‘hanging separately’ when the truth comes out.
I am no historian, but I doubt if there has ever been a conspiracy where one or other of the conspirators has not sooner or later sought to save himself by turning ‘king’s/queen’s evidence’.
In the present case, If we had had half-way decent media hacks some years ago, plying their trade honestly, who knows but that the truth would have emerged in time for a successful excision of the rotten cells, and a return to health of the now almost fatally diseased SFA.
Remember, the moral probity ,or otherwise, of a particular club is, in a sense, not the most important issue, grave though it be. There will always be chancers and cheats.
It is the suspicion that that club was shielded and protected by some individuals in control of the levers of real power at the very heart of Scottish Football that is the major cause for concern.
for anyone who has not seen it Tam Cowan gets the odious leggo spot on
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Meanwhile, more grief from a rather unhinged character – a former journalist who can’t get a paid gig – on a cyberspace blog that panders to Rangers supporters. Actually, the sooky sycophancy is downright cringeworthy – I can only imagine he’s hoping a gullible Gers fan will give him a job or perhaps a wee hand-out.
The poor soul is actually lampooned by both Celtic and Rangers fans and he was described this week on one Rangers messageboard as: “An imbecile and an insult to the club, its management and the fans.”
After wading through his blast at Off The Ball and yours truly (thanks to Davie G from East Kilbride who first tipped me the wink) I can only imagine he must have been drunk when he wrote it.
Didn’t mind him describing both my show and my column as “unfunny” (any judge in the land would throw out my appeal!) but the author has clearly forgotten I witnessed him delivering the worst after-dinner speech I’ve ever heard at a boxing event earlier this year.
A guy at our table actually dubbed him “the white Lenny Henry” and it was truly awful.
My two guests – a pair of hyenas – didn’t even raise a grin and I would have felt less pain if I’d jumped into the ring and had a square-go with two of the boxers.
It was one of those turgid talks peppered with the phrase “but seriously …” even though the preceding bit had been completely bereft of a joke.
But listen, no wonder he hasn’t got a paid gig if he can’t even get his facts right.
Contrary to the bollocks in his blog, I DIDN’T defend BBC Scotland’s so-called “attack” on Rangers in last week’s column. I never even mentioned the storm over the Mad Men opening titles on Sportscene!
Nope, I simply put the record straight on the Super Ally v Fat Sally debate that featured on Off The Ball.
And, incidentally, I thank the many Rangers fans who listened back to the show on the BBC iPlayer and then admitted via email that, just like Ally, they had perhaps jumped the gun without having actually listened to the show.
Cheers guys.
And fair play to the blogger. You see, he did raise one smile by using the word “hooligan” to describe my co-host Stuart Cosgrove.
As my old Presbyterian granny would say, it takes one to know one.
Pip, pip!
Again worth remembering the FTT is an appeal. The appellant has to prove, on a balance of probabilities, that the assessments were wrong.
Anyone taking the length of time it is taking for the tribunal to complete, and for it to publish it’s decision is I’m afraid being falsely optimistic.
If it were a simple case of the payments being discretionary, and they could disprove HMRC’s basis for the assessments then that would have been a quick job. The fact that the appeal dragged on, and that the result is dragging on, means that there was no simple way to do it.
In my opinion the tribunal would have looked at individual cases, the evidence in relation to them, and would have drawn inferences in relation to other cases based on similar fact.
The Tribunal will find that the assessments were correct, in whole or in part. What no-one (other than a select few) knows is how much.
john clarke says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 13:05
campsiejoe says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 11:48
‘..Make no mistake, all of them are complicit to a greater or lesser degree, and the last thing they want is to expose their own part in the biggest scandal ever in Scottish sport.’
——
What I am particularly interested in finding out is the point where ‘conspirators’ of any kind begin to realise that ‘hanging together’ in complicit silence will not save them from ‘hanging separately’ when the truth comes out.
I am no historian, but I doubt if there has ever been a conspiracy where one or other of the conspirators has not sooner or later sought to save himself by turning ‘king’s/queen’s evidence’.
==========================
I would be astonished if high ranking officials, staff, players and agents had not already given evidence. It’s not an optional thing.
john clarke @ 13:05
It is the suspicion that that club was shielded and protected by some individuals in control of the levers of real power at the very heart of Scottish Football that is the major cause for concern.
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The events since February, in my opinion, prove beyond all doubt that it is not a suspicion, that RFC(IA)/Sevco have indeed been shielded and protected by certain individuals
davis58 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 13:17
john clarke says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 13:05
Remember, the moral probity ,or otherwise, of a particular club is, in a sense, not the most important issue, grave though it be. There will always be chancers and cheats.
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Yes and there will always be sanctimonious clowns, typing self gratuitous- literary masturbation- which is no better than garbage, in an attempt to be considered clever!
___________________________________________________________________
Ditto!
Agrajag says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 13:15
I would be astonished if high ranking officials, staff, players and agents had not already given evidence. It’s not an optional thing.
============================
Thumb away guys, why else do you think it was agreed to be held in private.
Public order and personal safety.
What’s the betting the witnesses are anonymised in the report as well.
I know now that Campbell Ogilvie has re-surfaced and Chas and Ally are making noises about building bridges everyone fears a stitch up but I really can’t see this happening for the following reasons;
The FTT will eventually return a verdict. Now this verdict could completely exonerate the club but I don’t think anyone seriously expects this. If the verdict is damning the information will be in the public domain and be dissected over by the ‘bampots’. If phrases like ‘deliberate avoidance’ and ‘orchestrated campaign’ are contained within the judgement then that could have an impact on the SPL’s own investigation due to the seriousness of the judgement and the pre-meditated nature of the way the EBT was conducted. In other words it was designed not just to avoid tax but to dupe the footballing authorities at the same time.
Secondly the SPL’s own tribuneral, made up of eminent legal minds, will sift through the relative documentation and deliver another verdict. Now the reasons for the verdict should really be made public but given the history of this saga that may not happen however the verdict itself will have to be made public and then the scrutiny will shift back to the SFA who will have to enforce the verdict. If they refuse to enforce the verdict or attempt to water it down in any way shape or form then it will have to be done in full public view.
While I myself have oscillated between thinking this will all get covered up to justice being seen to be done I am now of the opinion that eventually there will be too much information in the public domain for even our authorities to ignore.
There is still however the possibility that they will do nothing but this will have far reaching consequences for our national sport;
It will be quite clear that the independent tribunerals are nothing but a sham or delaying tactic designed to suit one club or more importantly avoiding a very uncomfortable truth. Probably the volunteers for these tribunerals would remove their names en masse from the list as a protest leaving a hard core on the list that are perfectly happy the way things are going leaving the system even less impartial. This will hardly foster good relations within the game.
More importantly the fans themselves will see any watering down for what it is. This mask has already slipped during the summer for all who wish to see the truth. The threat of a mass supporter boycott eventually brought enough pressure to bear to ensure that a new club was not placed in the top tier of Scottish football. That pressure has not gone away. If the SFA really wish to create a scenario where a new club, who have accepted the licence and future penalties of the old club, for various misdemeanours is allowed to bargain away any meaningful punishment then the game is really up.
There will always be a following for every club but the sporting ethos, the belief of every team being treated equally, promotion on merit, as well as fit and proper punishment for rule breaking all of this will be lost and with it thousands of fans.
Most people are sceptical of UEFA getting involved but surely even they would raise eyebrows if, for a second time, the same club is allowed to avoid punishment by our sports administrators for serious crimes committed. This will also be seen against the backdrop of thousands of customers walking away from the sport because all of the decisions taken are for the benefit of one club.
davis58 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 13:17
Yes and there will always be sanctimonious clowns, typing self gratuitous- literary masturbation- which is no better than garbage, in an attempt to be considered clever!
—————–
Ooooooooh, sounds like you,ve cracked, dear boy.
The literary masterpieces of the past day will be fondly remembered when venom and spite are liquidated.
I am surprised, unless I have missed the debate, that there have been no comments in regard to Bill Millers lawyers statement, that D&P were openly discussing SFA corruption. D&P indicated that as CO was at the helm of the SFA, there would be a reluctance to investigate the dual contracts and EBT issue.
Who told D&P that they would try and bury this? Was it CO himself?
dedeideoprofundis says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 13:39
No, not actually, you guys are unbelievable. Please tell me what you believe?
davis58 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 13:50
dedeideoprofundis says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 13:39
No, not actually, you guys are unbelievable. Please tell me what you believe
=============================
Why would you ask someone who is unbelievable to tell you what they believe.
You aren’t going to believe them anyway.
Unbelievable!
It would be better if those who have no interest in due process just said so, they are transparent enough.
posmill says:
…so here’s my wee bit of sheep doggerel:
THE LAIRD o’ BAW
==========================================================================
posmil…doggerel indeed!
If only you and Shakespeare could swap places…John Clarke would not have to try to convince me as to the merits of verse…an’ guid Scots verse at that!
Feed not the troll.
Oh and once again Posmill, cap doffed.
Agrajag says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 14:30
Honesty is always the best policy I was brought up to believe.
Has the shift changed at Media House? Davis58 seems to have multiple characters and it looks like he’s back in his/their greetin’ faced mode as opposed to the more reasonable one he was displaying yesterday. Or am I mixing him up with one of those rare people, you know, one of those reasonable bears that form the majority of their support but seldom appear in public?
Danish Pastry, Yojimbo and one or two others that post on here seem to be the reasonable minority as far as posting on the internet is concerned!
As threatened: Armageddon has now arrived!
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4574740/Armageddon-the-beers-in-Itll-cost-you.html
🙄
john clarke says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 14:27
Don’t know about anybody else, but personally I’d like you to grow up a little, please, and stop behaving like the practitioner of literal masturbation that some of your posts suggest you to be.
——————————————————————————————————————–
Yeah JC, but has it not occurred to you that it is the only post ever that I have got thumbs up?
“stop behaving like the practitioner of literal masturbation ”
Unfortunately I came up with the phrase first, so to recycle the phrase, is a bit, how would you say, pathetic!
However, if it is about self pleasure, do not feel embarrassed, just be careful when peeling the pages of your dictionary.
davis58 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 15:39
Yeah JC, but has it not occurred to you that it is the only post ever that I have got thumbs up?
===============
Now that’s just not true, is it?
neepheid says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 15:46
Ok I exaggerated a bit there.
ok? premature maybe.
davis58 is turning into the troll of trolls
davis58 should be put into administration,soon to be liquidated.
Fish?
Galling fiver says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 16:46
Rate This
Fish?
=======================
Feckin’ brilliant.
davis58 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 16:44
I don’t think I’m particularly clever, just sensible.
Ok so what do you want to do with your life. Do you want to work, if so what do you want to do?
Because with attitude like that no one will employ you.
Since we’ve been talking poetry recently, did you know that the original title of William Blake’s famous poem “Jerusalem” was “The emanation of the giant Albion?”
Apropos of nothing, of course…
davis58 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 16:58
Sorry to disappoint but I have been in very successful employment for 38 years and counting!! Must be the sensibility!!
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:02
4 0 Rate Down
FT Stirling Albion 1 Sevco 0
Keep up the good work Ally
_______________
poll on FF 78% want sally out
will he do walking away ?
Observer says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:04
2
0
Rate This
Since we’ve been talking poetry recently, did you know that the original title of William Blake’s famous poem “Jerusalem” was “The emanation of the giant Albion?”
Apropos of nothing, of course…
=======================
Of course …
jean7brodie says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:04
Ok tell me what you have done then?
Can we all just not feed the Troll, please.
RM going into meltdown about McCoist.
But he doesn’t do walking away…
And Charlie is going to have break away from delivering his own brand of fantastic moonbeams – and actually try to manage the situation.
Top quality diversion to entertain the Bampots, pending FTT etc.
davis58,please calm down,you are your own worst enemy,so many people on here have tried to be patient with you,and still you dont want to REALLY join in.Come on on on in,you really are welcome, just remember this, you are not our enemy,but you are becoming a hellavu big target.
Let’s all calm down.
Lisbon?
Its seems like 78% of residents in followfollow land
would like to see Mr McCoist walk away
I wonder what Mr Charles will decide to do ?
Remember Ally -you dont do walking away
you dont do Stirling away either
keep up the good work
davis58 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:16
I have followed and posted since 2nd or 3rd week of RTC, this is beyond all bounds of decency.
DISGUSTED
neepheid says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:12
Agreed!!
Folks,
Regrettably, Davis is now on the naughty step. I think we have given him some latitude up to now. I hope he will be contrite, but that level of abuse is just not on. I have removed some gloating posts again. There will be degrees of (dis)satisfaction throughout the football world concerning results, but in that respect, no mocking is the simple rule.
I have also removed some posts (two) replying to trolling posts. Please don’t feed the trolls. I know we all want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but when people post sarcastic remarks without making a point, please ignore it.
For the record, I don’t think that Davis is a troll. I think he is a bit immature and sometimes lacks the thick skin required to debate on this issue. I hope he will take a wee breath and come back with a bit less sensitivity.
TSFM – fair deletion. 🙂
Davis58 – Google is your friend. If there are words you don’t understand, just Google them and you’ll get a definition.
As for the bears, did they really think TRFC would go a whole League season without losing a game?
I guess they did. I feel sorry for them.
Hang on – no I don’t. 🙂
davis58. You seem to be very angry about something. More so today than previously. And I don’t believe jean7brodie is really the cause of your ire, is she? Whether you continue to post (or are even allowed to continue to post) I think you owe jean7brodie an apology.
Jim Traynor on Your call – apologies for paraphrasing – I have been reading the minutes from Sevco fan meetings with Charles Green – the fans are behind him.
How many fan minutes have been in circulation? The notes from the VB meeting spring to mind where Green appeared to be playing to the galleries – orange strips for the club etc.
Interesting that Jim has not commented on Mr Green’s strategy of appealing to the darker/NI element of the fan base who support Sevco
andy says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:08
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:02
4 0 Rate Down
FT Stirling Albion 1 Sevco 0
Keep up the good work Ally
_______________
poll on FF 78% want sally out
will he do walking away ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ermmm…he invested (allegedly) his own cash…
I suppose Jimmy Jewel might provide the traditional get out buy stating Ally will move upstairs…to allow a younger manager to step in…
Lord Wobbly @ 17:53
Well said 🙂
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/radio/bbc_radio_scotland/listenlive
Your call online if anyone is interested.
Stuart Cosgrove is on with the waste of airspace
CG has played to the galleries at every meeting he had another one with the RST last night where he gave the answers they all wanted to every Q asked
when are the likes of jabba going to ask him about not joining the SPL again he has repeated this at least 3 times and no questions asked
Long Time Lurker says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:58
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you seen the interview comments from the head of the OO should the SNP get independance?
I know that may sound off topic…but it’s not the greatest leap from that to the fear/corruption that is being displayed by the SFA towards SEVCO!
Thanks LW but I won’t hold my breath.
Long Time Lurker says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:58
Not only that, but he has trotted out the old “Armageddon” myth, again alleging that “certain clubs” are struggling to pay income tax, PAYE and VAT.. No names mentioned or evidence presented …
TSFM. Fair enough.
I’ve been accused recently of being TSFM’s main conspiracy junkie, so please feel free to ignore the following as simple conspiracypot bamtheorism…
A few months ago a judicial tribunal found Rangers guilty of misdemeanours “just short of match-fixing”.
To me, the sporting offence just below fixing a match is throwing a match.
Now, it is my belief that – in order to make money from the TRFC support – Mr Green must not be found at any point to have lied to them. Not till he’s long gone.
A few days ago, he promised to the support that TRFC would never play in the SPL so long as he was in charge.
As far as I’m aware there is no mechanism for a football team which comes top of a division to refuse being then placed in a superior flight: the only way to stop that occurring is to ensure that yr team does not top any divisions.
I was pondering this at 5pm today as I watched the day’s football results coming in…
I’ve got two 2s here; if I put ’em together can anyone tell me what that makes???
stuart cosgrove just read out posils poem on your call
traynor said it was rubbish
Congrats, Posmil, hero bampot!
Laird o Baw on Radio Scotland now!!!!
if jabba hates it
it must be very good
TSFM says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 12:45
17 1 Rate This
Should have said earlier, and to my shame forgot …
I am not a lover of poetry, but Posmill’s wordsmithery has
enhanced us all even further, A great read, and wonderful play on the language (which I do love).
I await the Wobbly Award being conferred
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posmill doesn’t need any award from me. Jabba just said it was rubbish. I can think of no greater badge of honour.
Jabba said he was going by reports of Green’s meetings with supporters’ groups; he didn’t say anything about the minutes of said meetings. Interesting to hear that he’s still predicting imminent destruction for the SPL; although when Cosgrove referred to Jabba forecasting “armageddon,” the svelte one’s denial was so strenuous that he almost burst a blood vessel.
dedeideoprofundis says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 18:36
0 0 Rate This
stuart cosgrove just read out posils poem on your call
——————
Ohmygod, it’s getting funnier by the day.
Linfield 1 Ballinamallard (Who?) 3.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is The SCOTTISH Football Monitor.
The Rangers will still romp home in the 3rd division.
There was always going to be a banana skin or two along the way.
Save the gloating for elsewhere.
Leave the grinding of teeth and rocketing blood pressure for those ‘superb’ fans.
andy says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 18:26
stuart cosgrove just read out posils poem on your call
traynor said it was rubbish.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The normal response from one who finds it impossible to acknowledge positively such things which are above him…from the man who gave us…Mr. Megorium’s Magical wonderland Casino Complex emporium…as dictated to him by Lord of the Moonbeams!
Well done Posmill..
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 18:31
Posmill doesn’t need any award from me. Jabba just said it was rubbish.
———————-
The instinctive reaction of a creative genius to praise is self-deprecation.
If I can nail the truth (that ‘posmill’ is actually James Traynor, as I am almost certain) I will retire from bamtheorism at the top!
Observer says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 18:23
===========================
He has said loads of things which he subsequently reneged on. Or changed to suit his audience. As far as I can see he just plays to whatever gallery he is in front of.
Initially he said he would only be there for a year.
He said he had 20 investors
He said he would have £30m in the bank by June
He says they are debt free.
He said they would bring loan players from Newcastle.
He has talked about various sponsorship deals.
He said he would be floating on the stock exchange.
That’s off the top of my head.
I’m not sure what your point is, but if it is based on him not being able to lie to the most gullible fans in Europe, then it is based on a false premise.
A’m just a dreich bampot, but when the keich strikes the metal, with fair dues to the likes of Thompson and Daly, I think that the magnificent Cosgrove will be the one in the msm who gets this over the line.
Posmill, wonderful, is there more where that came from!
I’m not so sure that T’Rangers will romp to the title. Queen’s Park are a very good side who I have seen twice so far this season. The match at Ibrox in a fortnight is no foregone conclusion. I believe Queen’s play Annan next Saturday at Hampden as Annan were in cup action today. A few extras supporters to cheer them on (and put some distance between them and their city rivals) would no doubt be appreciated.
paulmac2 says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 18:07
Long Time Lurker says:
Saturday, October 6, 2012 at 17:58
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you seen the interview comments from the head of the OO should the SNP get independance?
I know that may sound off topic…but it’s not the greatest leap from that to the fear/corruption that is being displayed by the SFA towards SEVCO!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
O/T indeed. the SNP is already independent. 🙂
Posmill – I’m not one for praising other posters on here, but that was a very fine piece of work.
🙂
How is CG going to deal with not being able to sack McCoist or share issue collapses – McCoist who in turn, can’t sack or drop any players because there is no one to replace them ?
Congratulations to Stirling Albion manager.
On his wedding, I mean.
I’m sure he will remember this special day for a long time.