Comment on Comment Moderation Thread by tayred.
I’m afraid I am largely with Taysider and Highlander here. The fact is that time and time again whenever an issue comes on here that doesn’t necessarily paint a certain side in a good light all hell breaks loose. Tonev, Budge, and now handball gate (there was another one but I forget what it was (anyone?)).
One important fact that a large part of the population here seem to miss is that Budge, Tonev etc were not footballing issues – they were related purely and simply to what is deemed as acceptable behaviour of fans and players. The lack of a penalty was purely a footballing issue (assuming you can see past the ridiculous suggestions of an apparent blatant anti-Celtic bias amongst the authorities that several comments by various folks seem to hold in very firm belief – and the underlying current that this is in some way related to religion). Trying to argue your point that a missed penalty is the same as complaining about bigoted messages being sprayed on stadia doors, families feeling threatened or racism is really beyond the pale.
As an individual I have grown tired trying to sell SFM as a genuine opportunity for Scottish football fans to get together and try and solve some of the very big problems our game has. Most of my friends and family just laugh now, viewing this place as no more than just another Celtic talk shop. This latest issue has sealed the deal as far as most of the few remaining were concerned – sickened by it. It is also the reason why I have as yet not contributed financially to the site, I often feel guilty about that but events like this last week relieve me of that guilt.
I’ll still come here every day, and try and tune into the general chat comment, as some of it has been superb. My knowledge of the financial and legal side of Scottish society has benefitted hugely from coming here although I have no qualifications to add much to it. No doubt I will be drawn into more unbearable arguments here when the green side starts spouting forth on certain issues. I’ll maybe reach the heights of being blacklisted and accused of a Celtic hatred again just cos I don’t agree with the majority view. When I read something I find truly offensive that is just glossed over by the majority, I will also respond – I guess that will be the level of my contribution to the site. The irony is, and especially over this last week or so, that many here accuse TRFC fans of having a sense of entitlement, of arrogance, superiority etc and yet they seem entirely blind to what is being written in the name of Celtic here. It’s really rather sad…
I don’t envy your job of moderation, I dread to think what some of the cut messages actually say. I’ve never worked out where your own particular allegiance lies, occasionally something happens and I have a good idea, but that its not clear says much about the quality of the work you are doing. Wishing you all the best.
Comment Moderation Thread
Interesting that my use of “bonkers” is pulled and yet the original message to which I was replying remains. Two statements of personal opinions (not sure I played the man but I will go along with your decision on that one). One is apparently ok, one not.
Anyway, lets hope this debate can lie, as it was yet another clearly another club based line in the sand debate. Unfortunately I have become something of a sucker for those debates it seems – sorry!
Firstly, apologies, I did not know this thread existed. Had I known I would have aimed my previous two PM’s to you here instead. Perhaps I would have received some response if I had.
Fair do’s on your comment last night, I fully expected Steffs comment to be deleted and I probably would have done the same if I was in your shoes. My comment was intended more just to flag up that there seems to be a drive to delete messages that may cause upset to some. Frankly that upset is required to stop people relaxing into the navel-gazing, comfortable pseudo-intellectual guff (for want of a better word) that I find a certain subset of the TSFM community love to wallow in. Please understand I don’t just mean in the recent Tonev etc debate, I mean in general – sometimes a more confrontational tone is required simply to give folks a shake. However, I completely agree that if it takes an overly personal tone it should be deleted, or better still edited or returned to sender (I also accept that that would be a ridiculous amount of work for you, I can imagine you have more than enough on your plate – if there is a Mrs (or Mr) TSFM she (or he) must be very understanding!)
So, yes, Steff overstepped the mark, and perhaps I did, but I’m not sure what your “guess” remark refers to.
Your comment above that “Angry folk don’t make good TSFM contributors” is perfectly true, but I don’t see much evidence that the community as a whole makes any effort to understand why there appears to have been a marked increase in the levels of anger recently. The comments over the past few days on this particular thread should tell you all you need to know! In recent times there have been several issues which have amplified the Celtic versus everyone else debate to a point where bore a significant undertone of superiority and the feeling of entitlement that is normally associated with the Blue side of the famous Glasgow twosome. Sometimes you require a needle to poke at such balloons of pomposity.
The “then we have a serious communication gap which I can’t do a lot about” statement above is worrying. Sorry mate but that just sounds like a cop out. I’ve harped on about this before and don’t want to bore you again, but for this place to work it needs to retain a good level of “multiculturalism” (can’t think of a better term). Now, its difficult because as you have pointed out from my side I don’t see all of the comments that you have deleted, but I do see what I believe to have been perfectly reasonable comments deleted, whilst others I find offensive/patronising from the, I’ll say green side but that is just an oversimplification for the sake of this argument, remain listed for eternity. I’m sure you can’t go sending explanations for all deletions, and many will require no explanation, but I have requested explanations in the past cos I honestly didn’t understand why they were pulled. Some could have been very easily edited in much the same way as you doctored my comment last night.
As others have pointed out the blog can be made more partisan simply by driving out all opposition, then you will have a happy blog but alas it will be a pointless talk-shop that will achieve nothing. In all seriousness I don’t know how to solve this – maybe another thread on which this debate can be hammered out? I fear that would dissolve into a massive argument within the day!! Dunno… but from talking to others here and from my reading of other fan sites, TSFM has a massive problem. Steff made comments that were certainly forthright about his views on the colour of this blog, but my god they don’t come close to some comments I’ve read on the subject elsewhere!
Finally “I don’t want to turn this into a proxy debate on the substantive issues here. There are others on the main blog who are doing that sensibly. If you don’t like what you see and hear on TSFM, then of course you won’t want to hang around. Maybe sad, but let’s just leave it at that.”
– That’s a sad statement indeed – “shut up or get lost” is what it sounds like to me, but I assume that’s not what you intend it to sound like. Sorry mate, but it’s impossible to debate such a massive issue on the main blog. In my experience and from others its a debate that is completely dismissed by many, leads to a gang of naysayers belittling any attempt to discuss it, leading directly to deleted posts from exasperated members overstepping the mark, creating more anger and cries of troll aimed at anyone that dares ruffle the feathers of the TSFM royalty! The dreaded downward spiral is rapidly becoming a cliff.
I’m over egging it slightly, but then I’m angry because I honestly thought this place could be a force. I’ve read it for years (including RTC), I don’t have any special knowledge that I can use to help dissect the TRFC situation, Mrs Tayred and offspring thinks I spend too long reading posts here as it is, so I can’t devote time to helping the dissection of TRFC but I have been amazed at the power of this place to dig into the murky side of our society. It has been a phenomenal example of what such a blog can do. I am angry that such good can be subverted into a place that can carry statements that I find abhorrent – recent posts on the minutes silence at Pittodrie were indefensible, some responses to Anne Budge equally indefensible. The Tonev case is more uncomfortable for everyone, but the tone of many here that somehow has been fully accepted has made my skin crawl at times.
Now I really must find ways to make my posts shorter….
Who Is Conning Whom?
Finloch, who is to say that Milne hasn’t told TRFC and McInnes exactly that – Once the money is available away you go and talk.
Seems to me that all that AFC can be held as being guilty of at the minute is not seeking the SMSM to do their dirty work for them, not spouting off through broadcasters and journalists and unbelievably behaving in something approaching a professional way. Something TRFC couldn’t even begin to imagine doing.
AFC supporters are most certainly being treated with contempt by the SMSM and by TRFC, and in all probability by McInnes but Milne…. in this case I think its too early to say. That said… it wouldn’t surprise me!
I have my problems with Milne, but in this case I think he can’t win regardless of how it ends. I only hope come the end of it all he will pay more attention to feelings of the AFC supporters than those of TRFC and their compliant media.
The Vice Closes
DUNDERHEID, no. The law doesn’t come into it. It has already proved to be utterly useless at doing anything about it because its unworkable. Freedom of speech is valuable and should be guarded. No problems with that.
But here we are in a chat site full of intelligent people. People it seems that are quite happy for certain chants to be sung, despite complaining like hell when “the other side” gets off with it week-in week-out. I just don’t understand it! The one line answer “its not sectarian” floored me, and I’ll wager most outside the South-West of Scotland won’t understand it either.
Listing songs other clubs sing that are just as objectionable is fine – I don’t like them, nor understand why perfectly sensible people find them amusing. But while TRFC are belting out their well known ditties and CFC fans bring out their IRA songbook, its very hard to tackle the ignorance in songs about the economics of housing in urban environments! The Jimmy Saville related songs are quite simply revolting.
Anyway. Its a pointless argument as it sadly seems too ingrained in people from all the big to be solved anytime soon. Have a good weekend folks.
The Vice Closes
My point wasn’t to open a debate on what is and what isn’t sectarian – quite frankly thats a side argument – if its offensive I don’t care if its sectarian or not. But to question why it appears to be ok with some to sing about the IRA, and why the excuse appears to be because it “isn’t a sectarian song”.
Be it sectarian or not, there is no place for this at a football match in any normal society. It depresses me that so many are willing to accept this situation, and as mentioned elsewhere it seems incongruous that CFC fans are so ready to point the finger at TRFC fans whilst watching some of their own fans start the slide down that slippery path once again.
I’ll also add here that my own teams fans sing songs that may be considered by some offensive and I really wish they didn’t, but meantime you will never hear me defending those fans that are singing them.
TONYSEPTEMBER 21, 2017 at 18:08 30 23
TEARSOFJOYBut to the meat of the matter, that irresistible force : sectarian singing. The hypocracy that surrounds Celtic on this matter is staggering and the number of CFC fans that take the moral high ground on this matter equally so. CFC fan sing pro IRA songs – we all know it, we’ve all heard it. So let’s stop pretending otherwise.
IRA songs are not sectarian
I was going to ignore this message, but then I saw the amount of support it got from the SFM community. I was appalled. Its not a sectarian song apparently, and perhaps strictly speaking it isn’t, but to outsiders looking in it is every bit as repugnant as anything that TRFC fans (or indeed any other group of fans) may wish to sing.
I admitted perviously, I’m not an expert on the Irish politics. The IRA may have noble beginnings, standing up to the oppressor, one mans terrorist is another freedom fighter etc etc. But, as someone who had young family in that shopping centre in Manchester that particular day, I find it incomprehensible that anyone would believes glorifying the IRA is something that it is ok to sing about at a football match – a football match for gods sake.
The song may not be strictly sectarian for the pedants amongst us (and this site thankfully has many pedants pointing out the wrongs of the world in a more useful way), but to those looking at Celtic & Rangers from the outside it is impossible to separate the IRA/UDF or whoever from sectarianism and henceforth that song to the rest of us most certainly IS sectarian. Stop the whataboutery, stop the hate and bile returning to your support. If you need a target aim for Regan and the rest of the SFA or the Scottish media who are disgustingly wilfully helping to fan the flames of bigotry by turning their collective backs on the issue once again.
If Celtic and Rangers want to have any thoughts of joining the English leagues, then they will have to rid themselves of this baggage once and for all. Until then you most certainly won’t be welcome. But then “nobody likes us and we don’t care”. This stuff is not welcome at any of the other 40 odd grounds around Scotland, the lack of it over the past few years has been a joy – please don’t let it come back.
I know you CFC fans all hate the term – but two cheeks. By re-opening that once forgotten song book you are becoming one with your hate filled brothers from the other side of town. If you can’t see that then we might as well give up now.
My family walked out of Manchester that day unscathed thankfully. There are enough problems in this world without letting this nonsense get a firm foothold back in our society.
The Vice Closes
The song book – if the SFA/SPFL had stepped in right at the start of the issue of the TRFC songbook this wouldn’t an issue. If they had applied all the rules without fear or favour this wouldn’t be an issue. But by their repeated silence on the issue the TRFC fans grew bolder and soon realised they could do and sing whatever they liked. Sadly CFC fans appear to have decided that if “they can do it, then so should we”.
Yes, both clubs have historical links to Ireland. But god does it bore the pants off those from the remaining clubs around the land listening to this perpetual school boy playground drivel. Yes, ok it is far from being a school boy issue – I don’t understand all the issues relating to Ireland, and I sincerely doubt many others do. What I do know is that the majority of those fans belting out these revolting songs don’t understand them either, if they think they do its from the perspective of one side of the argument and even then deeply flawed. For them it is a school playground issue – they don’t really care about the politics or the history, its just what they do on a Saturday afternoon cos thats what their fathers did. Its tired, its pathetic and it has no part in any modern society.
Yet, in Scotland it isn’t just present, but due to the inactivity of those with the power to do something about, it it is flourishing. The press couldn’t give a stuff either… why? Cos it sells tickets and it sells newspapers. I love my country, but it has issues that the majority find downright mystifying and embarrassing – is it only money that allows this to continue? I mean it couldn’t be anything else could it?