It gets dafter and dafter. It is just over a year since the ridiculous and embarrassing – but failed – attempts by those in charge of Scottish Football to blackmail the SFL clubs and force them to parachute the shiny new Rangers into the SFL First Division.
A year where the new era of “transparency” heralded by a huge drum roll, gave way to secret agreements (which were never adhered to); panic-stricken measures to rush through change in the structure of the game without ANY delay or meaningful consultation – despite a hitherto intransigent approach to any kind of change; non-denial denials of the charge that Rangers were given a football licence without due process.
By the way, the SFA sent an official to an SPL Tribunal with a new convoluted interpretation of a rule which had been used to penalise clubs in the past, and ignored compelling evidence that one club had been economical with the truth on matters regarding banned directors when submitting their application for membership.
I could go on of course, but the incredulity bar is lowered with each ridiculous, contorted and corrupt episode, so that by the time we get to the claims made by several sources that Charles Green was in league with Craig Whyte when he bought some of the old club’s assets, we hardly blink an eye that the SFA appear content to accept the outcome of an internal inquiry ordered by the organisation most likely to be disadvantaged if the claims were true.
Whatever RTC was about, and it was about avarice, corporate malfeasance, theft of public money and the destruction of the integrity of competition in the game, we have moved on from there.
Even if the powers in charge of our game are forced to dispense proper justice in the case of both old Rangers and the new club, there appears to be little prospect that they will have done so because of a Damascene conversion in the ways of sporting integrity, fairness and Corinthianism. They will still be corrupt – just corrupt and bad at it. I am convinced that people have left the game in some numbers this season because of their disgust at the handling of the Rangers fiasco. I see no evidence at all that those people who voted with their feet last year will see a reason to change their tune this time around.
Whatever Rangers were guilty of, there is a general understanding of why they did what they did. They wanted to win – to be the best, and they pushed the envelope as far as they could before tearing the thing up altogether. What they did was 100% in their own self interest. It stinks, but at least it is logical.
What the authorities have done on the other hand is far more gobsmackingly illogical and unintuitive. They have acted in the interest of one club to the continued disadvantage of eleven others (in the case of the SPL, UEFA licences and player registration). They acted against the interests of new aspirants to senior football, and in concert with the interest of just one when they shoehorned Sevco (that’s what they were called then) into the SFL Third Division. I am sure they did that in the belief that a full season of no football at Ibrox would probably kill forever the cash cow that Green and his cohorts were fattening up for slaughter.
Despite the punishment that was accepted by Sevco (the transfer embargo), the SFA have stood by whilst the spirit of that sanction (although admittedly not the letter) was ripped up in their (still silent and impassive) faces as the MSM spun a market day frenzy of transfer activity by a club who were ostensibly proscribed from participating in that market.
Of course there are those who do not want to believe that their club, one of the forty-one good guys, is complicit in this nonsense – and yet ALL of our clubs ARE the SFA or the SPFL. Despite this catalogue of shameful inaction, sabotage and double-dealing, not one voice of dissent emanating from any of our clubs has been heard in print or broadcast media. Instead, huge pay increases and votes of thanks to the bureaucrats who acted out the farce authored by their masters, the clubs.
Is this because they (the clubs) are in agreement with what has transpired? I find it impossible to come to any other conclusion.
There are those who argue compellingly that if clubs, especially those who have a history of rivalry with Rangers tinged with some rancour, were to speak out, the press would have a field day; that allegations of bigotry and Rangers-hating would ensue from the MSM which would wind up the otherwise reasonable chaps who support Rangers.
In my view, if the situation is thus, then we are saying that we all have to keep our thoughts to ourselves, know our place and just take what scraps we get. If fear of violent retribution is the trump card here, then the trick for success in Scottish Football is not to have the most feared football team, but the group of fans which fills others with most dread. That is the death of the game – period.
What crystallises itself for me here is this fear factor. Anonymity has been carefully protected by most of us on this blog for exactly the reasons outlined above. Our desire to remain anonymous has been strengthened by the failure of authority, jointly AND severally, to itself stand up for the sport. The key from day one has been fear. Fear and corruption, which is merely a microcosm of the life in our country.
Whether it’s the media ignoring the wrongdoings of a football club, or a corrupt political system where for £40m donation you can get yourself £400m in tax breaks, we see those with resources pissing all over us from a very prodigious height. And when we do find out about it, we are cautioned to be very afraid of taking any action. Afraid of terrorism, afraid of unemployment, afraid of the mob.
I find myself resigned to the realisation that no matter WHAT evidence is uncovered, it will make absolutely no difference to anyone unless Joe Public keeps his hands in his pockets. People in boardrooms all over the country are betting that football fans are too emotionally invested in their clubs to do so.
The cheats, the spivs and the blazers will in the short and medium term get their own way, many of them aware of the fact that they are not quite as equal as others – and yet happy to go along with that.
We all have to decide whether or not we are as content as they are.
Suspecting as I do that most of us will find that unacceptable, I think there is still a war to be won, even if the battles seem to be going against us time and again. As long as we continue to feel that sense of outrage, that sense of betrayal by the custodians of our sport, we will still be shouting from these pages.
Thanks to the generosity and commitment of our readers, the shouting is about to get louder. We have reached our funding target and we hope to start organising our Podcasts within the next few weeks. The fight goes on, but hopefully it will also have greater reach.
TSFM
Wee update for those interested:
St Johnstone 1 up 🙂
Hibs 2 down 🙁
For those wanting to watch the St Johnstone match
http://nutjob.eu/njtvx16.html
Well done to the Perth Saints! ❗
ianjs says:
July 18, 2013 at 11:49 am
“PM.”
—————————
Thanks ianjs. I’ve mailed the administrators for some assistance. I’ll PM you back once I have a response.
It might be worth having a look at ‘Dropbox’ in the meantime. As you have a useful resource it might be worthwhile investigating how it can be tapped for future occasions. Dropbox can be a bit tricky to start with but a bit of fangling can get it to work.
St Johnstone blew me coupon had Rosenberg to win -2. But you know what happy to lose result’s like that are a rare sight for Scottish team’s in Europe. I don’t think they will make it through but got a good fighting chance now, so on you go the Saint’s all decent Scottish fan’s will be willing you through, we need it for the good of Scottish football.
Well done St. Johnstone. Super result and performance. Thought I would also share this with you all.
Was at Glasgow Fort today with a TRFC supporting chum. We fancied a coffee so I said to him, “Starbucks or Costa”?
“Costa if you don’t mind” he replied, “Starbucks don’t pay tax”
I waited a few seconds. Then,
“So how much was your Rangers season book”? I asked.
To be fair, he later said to me, “If you tell anyone about that conversation can you make sure you tell them I blushed”?
Some research from Tommy:
Got free demo 4month on the LSE 2 track the sevco share price Day 1 Analyis http://inyourfacejournalism.blogspot.co.uk/ With a graph comparing us & them
I’ll post later on,fresh evidence of little small time bears selling their shares,taking a potential 40% loss on any shares bought last Dec
[Us and them TJ? Have all the non-Tic fans left the blog?]
Castofthousands says:
July 18, 2013 at 8:16 pm
ianjs says:
July 18, 2013 at 11:49 am
“PM.”
—————————
Thanks ianjs. I’ve mailed the administrators for some assistance. I’ll PM you back once I have a response.
It might be worth having a look at ‘Dropbox’ in the meantime. As you have a useful resource it might be worthwhile investigating how it can be tapped for future occasions. Dropbox can be a bit tricky to start with but a bit of fangling can get it to work.
Strange as it may seem, I also have these stored in dropbox!
So I can access them from my nexus, when out and about?
I know, I know, sad innit!
It’s been said many times but I need to say it as well. What an absolutely brilliant result for St Johnstone. Uplifting stuff – Let’s hope they finish the tie at home.
Believe it or not St. Johnstone have never lost a European tie at home! Looking good for The Saints.
You did all hear that Sandaza reached an agreement with spivco to be released from the burden of employment?
Another big bill. Doh!
Peoples Popular Front …..Splitters!
Neil Doncaster to meet Morton fans tomorrow to discuss future of the game. (Greenock Telegraph)
Sandanza link. I’m guessing he’s signed a confidentiality clause 🙄
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23369938
Reference my post of 8.36 a.m today.
I have received an email reply from Stephen Halliday, courteous and pleasant, acknowledging that it will be interesting to see how the SFA apply themselves to the Massone problem, if it does in fact present itself.
My reply to him is as below:
“Grateful for your courteous reply.
I try to be reasonably balanced in most things.
But this whole saga , to relatively innocent citizens like me, has revealed things about our society that have astonished me.Not least being the devious nexus of connections between, say Jack Irvine and the Daily Record in the media world, sundry ‘magic circle’ lawyers and such like, and a whole nest or nests of highly dodgy ‘businessmen’.
I would not expect you to confirm, but I think it is highly likely that you will have seen the possibility- at- least of there being, or of there having been connections between an Interpol-wanted bad guy and some people associated with RIFC (etc) at Director level .
I also accept that Leveson might figure in newspaper editors’ minds.
But with one or two exceptions, no one in the print media is really digging into what could be a story of complicity in fraud, money-laundering and general corruption in Scottish Football.
The medium of radio ( BBC Scotland all the way down the scale to Clyde) has not only, it seems, NOT tackled the story but has (instance James Traynor and others), been a propagandising part of it!
It seems that there is real fear of nasty retaliation if a journalist goes beyond the trite, superficial questioning of the SFA and the publishing of press statements from one particular club.
One burning issue that no journalist has, as far as I know, raised: the terms of the 5-way agreement!
There should be a barrage of questions about that whole deal.
Who in particular was involved? Did the whole Board of the SFA know in advance, or were they presented with a fait accompli?
Were any SPL clubs paid ‘compensation’ to stop them greeting about losses sustained because of RFC’s behaviour?
We have to bear in mind that the SFA gets quite a whack of tax-payers’ money.
They ought to expect to be challenged, and challenged directly, about their whole administration
Anyway, thanks again.
I will let my fellow posters know that you have had the courtesy to reply.
John Clarke
Well done, JC. Interesting to see if and how he responds to your supplementaries.
john clarke says:
July 18, 2013 at 5:07 pm
9 1 Rate This
HirsutePursuit says:
July 18, 2013 at 3:59 pm
”’….I am sure the £2.55m has to be the “compensatory money” that your friend refers to.”
——
Not sure I quite follow,HP.
Are you saying that ‘there was no specific ‘compensation’ to those clubs who had particularly suffered (as Finloch’s source seems to imply), in order to keep them happy and compliant, but that the money was shared out as a ‘bribe’ among all the SPL clubs ?
Neither course of action would have been honourable, although the second would have more distinctly dishonourable!
How did, or will, the clubs receiving any such monies account for them? How will it show in the SFA’s own accounts?
================================================================
Perhaps these will clarify:
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/for-sevcos-5-5m-it-bought-all-rangers-players-fixed-assets-goodwill-and-2-67m-prize-money/
Actually, despite the headline,Paul goes on to describe £2.55m in prize money & an additional £120k held by the SPL, but arrested by Donald McIntyre
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/rangers-waived-right-to-prize-money.21208821
BDO report the waived figure as £2.1m. I suspect – but do not know for certain – that £2.1m was the estimate that D&P made of the forthcoming SPL prize money at the time of the asset sale. As the money was not forthcoming, they have no reliable basis to alter the estimate.
Regardless of the discrepancy in these figures, you can see that Sevco appear to have been coerced into agreeing that the old club’s 2nd place prize money – sold to them as part of the SPA – remained with the SPL.
The SPL did not receive money from Sevco. They simply did not pay Rangers the £2.55m prize money – that should have been passed to Sevco.
What I don’t fully understand is why Sevco agreed to the SPL’s demand. They had already been accepted into the SFL. The SFA membership transfer was (or should have been) no concern of the SPL
What did Sevco get from the SPL for their £2.55m?
willmacufree says:
July 18, 2013 at 11:20 pm
‘.. Interesting to see if and how he responds to your supplementaries.’
—
Thank you.
To be fair, willmc, I made my observations as questions that would, should, be in the forefront of any journalist’s mind, rather than as questions to him personally.
It would be very interesting if he did reply to me, of course.
But it would be even more interesting if he carefully crafted his next piece in the Scotsman in such a way as to publicly begin to ask hard questions of the Footballing authorities.
Of course I may be mistaken in my belief that Halliday and other journos are up to speed with this and other blogs.
It might conceivably be that he and the other sports journos don’t quite know or understand the references to Interpol and money-laundering and potential ‘bribing’ of SPL clubs to accept the 5-way agreement etc etc.
And that what I was suggesting in my email might actually have a basis in truth.
If that stirs his journalistic fire and blood, well and good.
If we on this blog have got it all entirely wrong, fair do’s.
But we need honest, verifiable answers before we can accept that our darkest suspicions were unfounded.
Let the SFA and former SPL and SFL speak openly and honestly, be thoroughly grilled and cross-examined about what they say, and we can take it from there.
And I hear that blo.dy wee beast saying”Simples!” as I write!
HirsutePursuit says:
July 18, 2013 at 11:37 pm
‘…The SPL did not receive money from Sevco. They simply did not pay Rangers the £2.55m prize money – that should have been passed to Sevco…’
——–
Thank you, I’ve got you now, I think: there was a sum of money retained in the SPL coffers in general, for all as it were to share in, if the 5-way agreement went through.
That is, essentially, CG was told to forget any entitlement to that RFC money, and we’ll all agree to pretend that, although you’re a brand new entity, you are really RFC and not a brand new applicant for membership of the SFA with all the tedious requirements that a new applicant has to meet.
Would that be a correct reading?
If it is, then I would suggest that only a few members of the SFA board were responsible for that policy line.
Those few being the CEO and perhaps two others, ostensibly speaking on behalf of the Board, but without the knowledge and consent of the other Board members.
I think you’re right that any sensible journalist will know exactly what goes on here and on other similar sites. They need to know what the competition is offering.
I don’t think it would be foolhardy as some seem to think for a decent scribe to tell it like it is. All fans including all but a deluded few followers of new club now realise the damage done to all clubs and therefore Scottish football in general by the graft that has taken place. As we keep saying, the SFA needs to be purged of the canker at its roots. If the office holders have any remaining self respect they will go immediately starting at the top. How that man can look in the mirror, walk down the street, hand out trophies for Pete’s sake, beats me. How self-respecting journalists, if indeed there are any, can
Maybe it’s time to offer amnesty to those officials who come clean.
Tomorrow’s anew day.
And before I go to bed,can I say how my thoughts turned to Cosgrove when I was out in my garage and heard the news of how well his team had done?
By any ordinary measure, that was a superb result.
And I share wholeheartedly in the delight and satisfaction that that kind of European away result brings.
I love it.
And Hibs can surely get two goals at home, and take their chances on penalties.
Armafeckingeddon for Scottish Football ?
No way. 🙂
Never took to Colin Montgomerie, greeting faced sod! ( see Charlottes latest). 😀 :
Good night, all.
ecobhoy says:
July 18, 2013 at 10:49 am
Personally though I wonder at the vitriol that some erstwhile ‘supporters’ appear to harbour for their old ‘club’ and some of the executives running them.
>>>>> Quite a statement ecobhoy – I expected better from you. I wonder if you have such opinions for all supporters who have been regular at Celtic games in the 60’s or 70’s etc but choose not to go now.
Are they “erstwhile supporters” too and is Celtic regarded as their “old club?” Do they have a “new club?”
Is the term “supporter” only relevant when it is accompanied by a season ticket? Do you think people take the decision easily not to return to Celtic Park after having been going there for years?
You say that the authorities are batting down the hatches and aided with the media lackeys, they are making fans weary which is why they will win. Actually, the thing that makes me weary is the silence from Celtic Park when we all know that old Rangers did not declare payments for 5 years but still managed to get off on a technicality or when old Rangers got a euro licence when they should not have – you and me were denied a Champions league campaign as well as the club being denied revenut. Next we have the ludicrous situation where we are being fed the lie that club was separate from company and that the Rangers Football Club never did any wrongdoing at all & never liquidated – it was the big bad company that did it and went bust and we should all be ashamed for kicking the club out of the SPL.
Where is the fight from our corner? Are we destined to accept everything and anything no matter what?
But I tell you what, if a fan takes a F*** UEFA banner to a game, you’ll get a statement out of Celtic before the ref has blown for half time.
So where is the statement when our own club has been cheated and where our own fans have lost out?
So if you don’t mind – show a bit of respect for people who have decided to stay away from Scottish football – because they do so with a very heavy heart and because they are sickened with this complicit attitude and where we seem to accept everything and anything no matter what.
You either accept corruption or you reject it. That includes you, me and those that run our club.
Bob Kelly took on the SFA when he said he would not remove the Irish flag.
Fergus McCann took on the SFA regarding the registration of Jorge Cadette.
Who is challenging the SFA today?
Peter says:
July 19, 2013 at 1:15 am
Better watch what you’re saying Peter. You’re in danger of upsetting some Sacred cows on here, old boy.
Well said all the same, despite it being startlingly obvious.
I get the impression that when Jack Irvine needs stimulating company he opens a bottle of his finest red, lights a couple of candles, then sits down in front of a couple of huge mirrors, then, quoting Sebastian Horsley he says to himself, “We can’t all be stars because someone has to sit on the kerb and clap as I go by.” And confused he lets his ego roam free to reflect.
Kingmaker, or puppet master, or just muppet?
The RIFC share price is now 42p.
According to the AIM website around half a millions pounds worth of shares were sold over the last two days. Presumably an institutional investor that got in at a huge discount has bailed?
I came across this headline in the Hootsmon this morning
“Hearts’ hearing for the notice of complaint issued by the Scottish Football Association for the Tynecastle club going into administration has been postponed until next month”.
…………
The reason given in the piece is the absence of panel members but I don’t buy that.
Is the real reason to allow the season to start and Bryan J to make some moves before the wonderful administrators of our national game have to make any decisions?
That way Hearts are a playing and going concern whatever happens.
If so this would be a continuation of the “lets keep Rangers alive” scenario we all witnessed a year or so ago.
And would support the theory from my recent posts that “business” trumps any “statute” in our game.
It is an insight to how they think.
Director Shareholding
Fri, 19th Jul 2013 07:00
RNS Number : 6713J
Rangers Int. Football Club PLC
19 July 2013
Rangers International Football Club plc
(“Rangers” or the “Company”)
Director Shareholding
Following the appointment of James Andrew Easdale as a Non-executive Director of the Company, the Company confirms that, pursuant to AIM Rule 17, Mr Easdale currently holds 357,143 ordinary shares in the Company, representing approximately 0.55% of the Company’s issued share capital.
For further information, please contact:etc.
Trade Date Action Notifier Price Currency Amount Holding
19-Jul-1 James Andrew Easdale 0 0 357143
Someone else who invested nothing?.
Quarter of a million quid at 70p then.
Nice way to lose 100,000 since December.
Peter @1:15am
Great post Peter.I agree with you entirely. I have been watching Celtic since my father took me to my first game circa 1956.I have been a season ticket holder for the last 30 years but quite frankly I’m ashamed of my club’s stance these days and I honestly never thought I would be saying that.
Instead of denigrating groups like the Green Brigade,they should be speaking out against the things that really matter,ie the corrupt and despicable organisation that poses as our football authorities and the corralling and criminalising of football fans.
Whether I continue to support my club in body or in spirit will be my decision. I will be content either way.
Peter says:
July 19, 2013 at 1:15 am
ecobhoy says:
July 18, 2013 at 10:49 am
=============================================================
My position on any supporter of any club walking away was clearly stated stated in the first paragraph of my post as follows:
‘On the issue of club supporters deciding to walk away away because they feel their club should have done more to expose the failings and corruption of the football authorities I have always believed that this is an individual choice for people to make and I have no disagreement with the decision they make. If they wish to deny their club or even Scottish Football in general with revenue that is their choice.’
I’ve just had a wee look over on RM to gauge how the share price drop is being received. The wise investors who populate that site are quite relaxed about the drop. Their take on it is that it’s not relevant to them or their club as the money is already in the clubs account and that it is only speculators who are buying or selling and that the share price is not important to their business. I wonder what it’s like to live in such a simple world where naivety allows spivs and charlatans to prosper.
castofthousands
PM
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
July 19, 2013 at 8:14 am
Trade Date Action Notifier Price Currency Amount Holding
19-Jul-1 James Andrew Easdale 0 0 357143
Someone else who invested nothing?.
============================================
I am unclear whether Easdale’s shares have been recently purchased or were bought previously. It also raises the question as to whether any shares are held by his brother.
Rohan Lightfoot says:
July 19, 2013 at 8:22 am
Quarter of a million quid at 70p then.
Nice way to lose 100,000 since December.
====================
He might have paid in cash though.. 🙄
Rohan Lightfoot says:
July 19, 2013 at 8:22 am
___________________________________
You must be aware of the following……….How do you make a small fortune at football?
First……………….Start with large fortune. 🙂
John Clarke July 19, 2013 at 12:20 am
———–
I think you’re right that any sensible journalist will know exactly what goes on here and on other similar sites. They need to know what the competition is offering after all. They know it’s a long way ahead of what they’re serving up.
I don’t think it would be foolhardy as some seem to think for a decent scribe to tell it like it is. All fans including all but a deluded few followers of new club now realise the damage done to all clubs and therefore Scottish football in general by the graft that is still taking place.
As we keep saying, the SFA needs to be purged of the canker at its roots. If the office holders have any remaining self respect they will go immediately starting at the top. How that man can look in the mirror, walk down the street, hand out trophies for Pete’s sake, beats me.
How self-respecting journalists, if indeed there are any, can avoid looking into and writing up the massive stories being generated here, by Charlotte and others, needs some understanding.
Maybe it’s time to offer amnesty and a nearly honourable discharge to those officials who come clean.
Tomorrow’s a new day.
ecobhoy says:
July 19, 2013 at 8:42 am
++++++++++++++++++++++
You are being a bit selective with that quotation, in my view. Your opening paragraph was indeed a perfectly reasonable statement, but you followed it with the paragraph quoted by Peter,
“Personally though I wonder at the vitriol that some erstwhile ‘supporters’ appear to harbour for their old ‘club’ and some of the executives running them.”
Like Peter, I personally found that a bit harsh. I have criticised the current custodians of Celtic on the basis of what I perceive to their collusion in matters such as the five way agreement, the re-election of Ogilvie, the bullying and blackmailing of the SFL clubs last year, I have never harboured any vitriol towards CFC. If I didn’t have strong positive feelings both towards that particular club and Scottish football generally, then I wouldn’t bother posting here.
There is a point of view, expressed eloquently by yourself and other highly respected and articulate contributors, that everything that has gone wrong in Scottish football can be laid at the door of those at the SFA, SPL and SFL, who admittedly are tasked with being the custodians of Scottish football. On that analysis, the clubs are kind of “mushroom managed” by the ruling bodies, just kept constantly in the dark, and then reading about developments in the morning paper just like everyone else.
I’m sorry, but as I have set out many times, to the point of repetition and boredom, no doubt, that just doesn’t wash with me. Everyone working in the SFL/SPL/SFA is in effect working for the clubs. It is the clubs who control these organisations. On a day to day basis, of course the CEO and others have a lot of autonomy. But when it comes to important strategic decisions, any CEO who just “did his own thing” against the wishes or interests of the clubs, would last as long as the period of notice in his contract.
In reality, all those involved in the utterly disastrous and disgraceful (as I perceive it) shenanigans of the last 2 years are not only still in post, but their efforts are being rewarded by jumbo pay rises, and in Ogilvie’s case, unopposed re-election for another 2 years.
Others can draw their own conclusions, but I personally can only conclude that the clubs are in this as deep as it is possible to be. My primary concern is, of course, the position of the club I have supported, emotionally and financially, for 55 years. The silence from Celtic Park is not a clever tactic, or a sign of “dignity” (God help us). It is the silence of shame. Unless Charlotte has something to reveal on the subject, we will probably never know the full extent of Celtic’s involvement in ensuring the continuation of the “Rangers brand”. Because I am pretty sure that if the full facts were ever revealed to the fans, the current Board would be swept away. So silence is not a virtue, it is an absolute necessity, an instrument of self preservation.
Just to conclude on my favourite theme, last month the 42 senior clubs in Scotland met for their AGM, and re-elected unopposed Ogilvie to the position of President. Not one dissenting voice, not one club out of 42 willing to nominate another candidate. That sent a crystal clear message to the fans (well to this one, anyway) from the clubs and this is it- We don’t care in the slightest what you think or how you feel, we will do as we please, your place in football is just to keep handing over your cash to us. And we have made the judgement that you chumps are too bloody stupid to do anything else, no matter what we do. So over to you, President Ogilvie, dear leader.
What a cesspit.
neepheid says:
July 19, 2013 at 9:52 am
===========================================
neepheid, have to agree with the fundamental point that the clubs (especially SPL) have chosen to accommodate Rangers 1/Rangers 2 for what they perceived to be in their (the clubs) best financial interests. Rangers are the greatest offenders but all are complicit.
I’d question whether Campbell Ogilvie has any power though, although there must be something there if they are all still happy to allow him to be elected unopposed when so clearly conflicted. He has also headed up an organisation that has provided poor leadership and administration throughout the events of the last two (twenty?) years. Earlier intervention would surely have prevented some of the damage to the governing bodies and its member leagues?
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-fc-taxman-walking/5413
Rangers International Football Club plc
(“Rangers” or the “Company”)
Withdrawal of General Meeting Requisition
On 16 May 2013, the Company announced that it had received a notice requisitioning a General Meeting of shareholders (“Requisition”). Following discussions with the requisitioning shareholder, the Company is pleased to announce that the requisitioning shareholder has now withdrawn the Requisition.
Friday 19 July, 2013
Rangers Int F.C. PLC
Withdrawal of General Meeting Requisition
RNS Number : 7116J
Rangers Int. Football Club PLC
19 July 2013
Rangers International Football Club plc
(“Rangers” or the “Company”)
Withdrawal of General Meeting Requisition
On 16 May 2013, the Company announced that it had received a notice requisitioning a General Meeting of shareholders (“Requisition”). Following discussions with the requisitioning shareholder, the Company is pleased to announce that the requisitioning shareholder has now withdrawn the Requisition.
I know the formatting will be terrible; but hopefully, it will still be legible. 🙂
In the past week, 1,202,414 RIFC plc shares have changed hands. In the process, the share prices has dropped by almost 20%. This at a time when the vast majority of shares are – or should be – “locked in”
In some ways, this collapse in the share price makes little difference to the current operation of The Rangers Football Club Ltd; but…
Wouldn’t it be worrying for the institutional investors – who paid between 50p and £1 per share – if the newly appointed nomad has allowed a former RIFC plc employee an early release from his lock-in?
Let me be clear. I have no specific knowledge of who has sold these shares. All I can say, is that there are a limited number of possibilities.
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) at 10:26am:
I have a vision of Charles Green appearing on the marble steps at the entrance to Ibrox, flanked by the Easdales, Rafat Rizvi, Imran Ahmad and Jack Irvine and proudly proclaiming:
“T’Boardroom war is over – T’Spivs have won!”
nickmcguinness says:
July 19, 2013 at 10:32 am
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) at 10:26am:
I have a vision of Charles Green appearing on the marble steps at the entrance to Ibrox, flanked by the Easdales, Rafat Rizvi, Imran Ahmad and Jack Irvine and proudly proclaiming:
“T’Boardroom war is over – T’Spivs have won!”
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Nothing so dramatic,I’m afraid.
You can watch on T’RFC TV,Just 99p
Peter says:
July 19, 2013 at 1:15 am
Markybhoy says:
July 19, 2013 at 2:50 am
neepheid says:
July 19, 2013 at 9:52 am
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Gentlemen, Bhoys!
Celtic are not the CAUSE of, nor are they the ANSWER to,the duplicity and double-dealing of the SFA or the failings of the MSM.
Let’s stick to rooting out the seemingly in-built , structural weaknesses in the Administration and the Administrators of Scottish Football, and the complicity of the MSM in allowing their deceit to go unchallenged.
Your views on the relationship of one particular club-your own- to those weaknesses are of peripheral importance.
Continuously having a go at Celtic/Peter Lawwell is achieving nothing, particularly since you don’t spell out exactly what you would want them to do!
And if there is something you would want them to do, write to them and tell them.And let us know how they respond.
But surely It would be much more useful and relevant if you were to channel your various degrees of unhappiness into action against the SFA Board and the other real baddies who DID cause all the problems, as the great majority of posters on this blog try to do?
neepheid says:
July 19, 2013 at 9:52 am
Spot on Neepheid. Fundamentally, this is where we’re going wrong. Our one success in this ongoing farrago/ charade/panto/whatever was the Say No To Newco campaign. When we threatened the Boardrooms with the only thing they understand (withdrawal of financial support) they sat up and did as they were telt.
I don’t take any pleasure in arguing with other Celts and particuarly when it comes to arguing over our dirty washing in public.
What is it about Scotland that engenders the boys club so assiduously? I’ve witnessed it all my life. Was it the prominence of the BB’s, Cubs and Scouts that meant nothing else could function without this at the heart of it? Or is it like this in every other country around the world and is quite simply a default position found in most men?
Whatever it is, it’s run it’s course.
Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont 5s
Celtic will play either Elfsborg or Daugava in the Champions League third qualifying round, assuming they progress
Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont 1m
Elfsborg are 7-1 up from first leg, so Sweden the likely destination for Celtic
john clarke says:
July 19, 2013 at 11:04 am
Peter says:
July 19, 2013 at 1:15 am
Markybhoy says:
July 19, 2013 at 2:50 am
neepheid says:
July 19, 2013 at 9:52 am
—–
But surely It would be much more useful and relevant if you were to channel your various degrees of unhappiness into action against the SFA Board and the other real baddies who DID cause all the problems, as the great majority of posters on this blog try to do?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Indeed – what we don’t require is a whole load of negative debate on here about the failings of the Celtic leadership. Aren’t there Celtic sites where that sort of stuff already happens.
john clarke says:
July 19, 2013 at 11:04 am
Peter says:
Markybhoy says:
neepheid says:
Gentlemen, Bhoys!
Celtic are not the CAUSE of, nor are they the ANSWER to,the duplicity and double-dealing of the SFA or the failings of the MSM.
And if there is something you would want them to do, write to them and tell them.And let us know how they respond.
………………………………………………………
John et al
Celtic are not the cause.
But they were and remain part of the complicity behind the 5 way agreement, the Ogilvie re-election and a whole bunch of other stuff that puts cash before honesty.
Stuff that many Celtic fans don’t agree with.
Lawwell is just getting a harder time than others because of two reasons.
There are proportionally more Celtic fans on this site than others
Many are just waking up to the fact that Celtic and other clubs have not just stayed silent and done nothing. They have been party to the solution that was ham-fistedly implemented. and is still unraveling.
There should have been a revolution but collectively they bottled it.
And the same charge can be thrown at the other 11 clubs including people like Mr Thompson DUFC who walked away when he smelt the nonsense rather than come clean with what was going on.
Nothing has changed.
Nothing.
All clubs remain complicit. Its just a shame that some of the bigger, more knowledgable and more connected ones have not taken the lead.
Shame on them all – they don’t deserve their fans.
Looks like another million shares changed hands at 42p….
john clarke says:
July 19, 2013 at 11:04 am
Continuously having a go at Celtic/Peter Lawwell is achieving nothing, particularly since you don’t spell out exactly what you would want them to do!
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I was going to shut up, but I really can’t let that one go. On the day of the AGM I explained precisely what I expected CFC to do. In the absence of action from any other club, I expected them to nominate someone, anyone, for the post of President. That would have ensured a properly conducted vote, and if the voting was 41-1, or more likely 42-0 in favour of Ogilvie, then it’s all out in the open and we all know exactly where we stand. That is surely specific enough. That is what I wanted, and indeed expected. I’ll obviously post my reply from Lawell on the subject when and if I ever get it- but after more than 4 weeks dignified silence, don’t hold your breath.
From memory, your response to me was that that would be a dangerous thing for CFC to do, social unrest, bad press, etc, etc. Well sometimes in life, doing the right thing takes just a tiny wee bit of courage. Allowing Ogilvie another 2 years unopposed was manifestly the wrong thing to do. But nobody is supposed to say anything, because that little scam can’t be laid at the door of the blazers- that one belongs entirely to the clubs. So lets all just maintain a dignified silence on that one. Sorry, not good enough for me.
I keep hearing that sevco will be fine once they are in the SPL and have access to that level of income
can anyone post, for example, the last 10 years profit/loss numbers for RFC PLC (IL)
I can’t remember them making a profit – even with CL income – so, how do they plan it this time?
neepheid says:
July 19, 2013 at 11:50 am
john clarke says:
July 19, 2013 at 11:04 am
Continuously having a go at Celtic/Peter Lawwell is achieving nothing, particularly since you don’t spell out exactly what you would want them to do!
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I was going to shut up, but I really can’t let that one go. On the day of the AGM I explained precisely what I expected CFC to do. In the absence of action from any other club, I expected them to nominate someone, anyone, for the post of President.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That is a wholly unrealistic expectation. You are asking the club to isolate itself and to do that would be counter productive. I don’t think for one minute that the clubs didn’t have a discussion about putting up a candidate to oppose Ogilvie but they didn’t get one. Why is that?
Well it may be because most clubs are happy with him and were complicit in the double dealings as we all believe or as more information piles up about just how incompetent he and his cronies are the time will be right to pin all the bad stuff on CO et al remove them and install a new regime.
There has been a lot of talk about how all this could be done if the clubs just acted together but that underestimates the power of the incumbent bureaucrats and the different agendas and interests of the individual clubs.
Rohan Lightfoot says:
July 19, 2013 at 8:22 am
Quarter of a million quid at 70p then.
Nice way to lose 100,000 since December.
:slamb:
He might as well have left it lying around in a bus depot. Oh, wait……..
neepheid says:
July 19, 2013 at 11:50 am
‘..I expected them to nominate someone, anyone, for the post of President. .
—–
But who’s to say that Celtic did not quietly and discreetly try to find a club chairman who would accept nomination? And a seconder? And there were no takers? ( Seriously, who would want to have to drink from the poisoned chalice?)
You can’t nominate someone who does not accept that nomination.
We simply do not know.
And, worse, we are not likely to find out even if we had really aggressive AT-kind of journalistic attempts to interrogate club chairmen!
I don’t want you to think that I am unsympathetic to the emotional pull of desire to bring things to a head, a show-down ( someone mentioned the Flag incident ), a shoot out.
But this is not about Celtic v the Footballing Authorities, as that incident was.
To expect that somehow it falls to Celtic in a particular and direct way to try to bring about a show-down is to miss that point, I think.
And we must not forget that people have died on the streets when crazed knife-men have expressed their hatred in matters of football.
HirsutePursuit says:
July 19, 2013 at 10:27 am
I know the formatting will be terrible; but hopefully, it will still be legible. 🙂
In the past week, 1,202,414 RIFC plc shares have changed hands. In the process, the share prices has dropped by almost 20%. This at a time when the vast majority of shares are – or should be – “locked in”
In some ways, this collapse in the share price makes little difference to the current operation of The Rangers Football Club Ltd; but…
Wouldn’t it be worrying for the institutional investors – who paid between 50p and £1 per share – if the newly appointed nomad has allowed a former RIFC plc employee an early release from his lock-in?
Let me be clear. I have no specific knowledge of who has sold these shares. All I can say, is that there are a limited number of possibilities.
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Well another million traded at 42p. this morning.
Definitely limited possibilities.
Maybe the new Nomads could shed some light on this.
Have the new Nomad agreed someones early release that Cenkos refused. Is that why Cenkos were dumped?
Drew Peacock says:
July 19, 2013 at 12:06 pm
“There has been a lot of talk about how all this could be done if the clubs just acted together but that underestimates the power of the incumbent bureaucrats and the different agendas and interests of the individual clubs.”
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Your making a lot of sense to me Drew.
I don’t deny anyone’s right to their own feelings and opinions and we are not all thankfully, cut from the same cloth so there is a spectrum of debate. There may be some logic in allowing a slow erosion of the SFA’s credibility to take place: Guerilla tactics. Then for a concerted effort to be made at an opportune time.
Prior to Ogilvie’s re-election there was little discussion on here concerning the matter, probably because we were not fully aware of the timetable. We did have scunner in our sights but we didn’t have the ‘heads up’ that sufficient prior notification of the election would have provided. It was an opportunity missed perhaps. We are still learning.
There has been a realignment of forces with the inroduction of the new SPFL. That Doncaster has been put in charge does not fill one with hope but if nothing else (and I am being as positive as possible), he does have the credentials to do the job even if his ethics require retraining.
I think political manoeuvrings are a bit like football; sometimes you have to play the ball back before constructing another forward move. I have a lot of sympathy with posters who have reached the end of their tether and as their numbers grow it may well signal that a change of tactics is necessary. Giving the benefit in of the doubt to clubs is a precarious prospect when there is so little inside knowledge of what might be going on. Given that the authorities appear to have become conflicted over a long period it may be necessary for the clubs to play along. One thing is for sure, the scales have been lifted from TSFM eyes and if that process ripples out, conditions may be created whereby more fundamental change can be exacted.
neepheid says:
July 19, 2013 at 9:52 am
Whether I like it or not I clearly understand that the duty of the Celtic Board, in running a publicly quoted company, is to its shareholders. That is the simple stark truth of the matter IMO.
You are at liberty to say and do what you want about Celtic or any other club just as I am at liberty to continue my probing into the rotten core of the problem which I believe is destroying Scottish Football.
Good afternoon all.
The suggestion is not that anyone isolates or exposes themselves to any form of criticism or overhyped attention unwarranted or otherwise. There were plenty of accusations and mud slinging fired at RFC prior to any official enquiry taking place.
The black cap was effectively doffed at the accused while the G4 vehicle was still dubbed up in the garage never mind anywhere near the courtroom.
The point being made is that by not asking questions regarding the level of complicity by a priviledged few or indeed, all of the member clubs then we are going against the principles and integrity of what this site and the contributors have set out as their sole intention and final end game. I have no qualm with those who want RFC extinguished i can understand that emotion. I also recognise that not all who despise the club feel that way solely through bigoted bias.
How can you dismiss complicity by the member clubs while at the same time request transparency or the removal of the very people who are employed to represent them? In my opinion you cannot seperate the two agendas because to do so would simply be hypocrytical. The member clubs have voted overwhelmingly to validate all that their representatives did on at least three accounts.
1} They voted to reinstate them…
2} They gave them a huge increase in salary…
3} They contributed to the “battening down of hatches” therefore sticking the proverbial digit in the face of the financial supplier’s into the pockets of their ego infested blazers.
Should self preservation prevail at any cost? Is this what we want from our beautiful game’s administrator’s and affiliated membership?
I would suggest that Rosemary West and Myra Hindley were every much responsible for the atrocities that their bedfellows committed. Which analogy do people prefer? Rosemary West’s feeble attempts to escape justice by turning on old Freddy boy after his demise,or Hindley’s steadfast refusal to give the grieving families a degree of closure? Both were complicit,…Neither showed any remorse…and both have left festering corpses that may never be found. Is this what we are advocating by not looking in all directions?
It stinks to high heaven to me. The sooner SDM/MB,the SFA/SPL or anyone else is thoroughly outed for whatever part they played in leading Scottish football to the rancid cess pit of a watering hole we are all currently drinking from the better. Cholera and leprosy are unforgiving diseases. It’s time we called in the paramedics and ultimately the surgeons..
ianjs says:
July 19, 2013 at 9:02 am
“PM”
———————
Thanks ianjs.
I have responded with a PM of my own back to you.
ecobhoy:
Not only do Celtic have a legal obligation to do the best they can for their shareholders they also have a duty to respect the trust imbued in them by all their season ticket holders and occasional fans too; likewise every other honest club in Scotland. Leaving aside the moral aspect, I believe that that, in a nutshell, is why a lot of people are beginning to get peed off with those in charge at commercial Celtic and similar angst is being directed towards other boardrooms the length and breadth of the county. If the shenanigans are allowed to continue and spread, unabated, then a lot more football supporters are going cross the tipping point of sense over passion.
We know there are rotten apples in the barrel, knowing that those rotten apples will rot the others should be a concern for all of us, especially so considering we all eat from the same barrel.
Castofthousands says:
July 19, 2013 at 12:56 pm
One thing is for sure, the scales have been lifted from TSFM eyes and if that process ripples out, conditions may be created whereby more fundamental change can be exacted.
=====================================================================
I happen to believe that a major role that can be played by TSFM is in providing information to other fan sites – and I don’t believe that entails telling them what they should be doing with their own individual clubs 😛
I think a starter could be the SPL clubs involved in the October-November 2011 time frame by documenting the chicanery the SPL was up to based largely on the recent CF docs. We could ask fan club sites if they would carry a guest post on the issue and if they don’t do that then ask them to let us have a smallish post with a link back to TSFM.
We would need a small group prepared to commit to creating an acceptable post and if it is going to go out in TSFM name then obviously he should have final say on it. We increase our own exposure and in a small way help to break the SMSM stranglehold on real news.
This is just a very sketchy plan so any ideas as to whether it could work or not would be good to hear.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
July 19, 2013 at 12:56 pm
4 0 Rate This
Have the new Nomad agreed someones early release that Cenkos refused. Is that why Cenkos were dumped?
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I think that is a perfectly reasonable question.
Does anyone know of any shareholder who had over 2 million shares to sell and wasn’t locked in?
Sam, Newtz et al,
How are the investigations into the spiv´s going, any developments to those pdf files ?
Excellent idea Eco. I think this would be welcomed by most fan sites. I t would provide a good platform to gauge the depth of feeling whilst absolving responsibility of a few select club chairmen. Let the fans dictate whether their club is morally innocent or complicitly guilty.
Having said that i am beginning to sense a bit of a departure from your initial claims and end game proposals.And dare i say the sentiments imparted towards my post the other day.
Let’s be totally objective and clear here..No one is suggesting that one club goes it alone.
All club’s should have the searchlight shone directly in their faces.
Your reponses from yesterday onwards are IMO throwing a mist enshrouded cloak of deflection over the original statutes of this blog site. Perhaps TSFM may need to change the introductory header,because it is becoming increasingly apparent that not everyone on here agrees with the manifesto policies or is toeing the official party line.
I’ve noticed a few posts this morning about locked-in shares Rangers AIM shares and I think it’s worth putting it into some kind of perspective.
There are 65.1 million RIFC Plc shares which have been issued. The directors + key employees (Ahmad and McCoist) hold 9.25 million shares. Without sight of the Cenkos lock-in letters signed by Green and Ahmad it’s difficult to know if there was any wriggle-room that would let them escape the lock-in now that they are no longer employees. I tend to think it might have been easier for Ahmad to escape the cuffs as he was never a director of RIFC Plc but that might not be the case.
It would also seem that the lock-in period for these 9.25 million shares could be 18 months comprised of an initial 12 months + 6 months orderly market lock.
There was also a now expired 6 months lock-in for 16.375 million of the 24.25 million Institutional Investor shares placed at flotation. Obvviously the fan shares approx 7-8 million from memory are fairly static.
Sunincapricorn says:
July 19, 2013 at 1:58 pm
Your responses from yesterday onwards are IMO throwing a mist enshrouded cloak of deflection over the original statutes of this blog site. Perhaps TSFM may need to change the introductory header,because it is becoming increasingly apparent that not everyone on here agrees with the manifesto policies or is toeing the official party line.
===============================================================
I take exception to your totally misplaced and unwarranted personal smear against my integrity. I have undernoted the purpose of TSFM and I for one see no need for any change in that statement which I certainly strive to abide by.
I have been a member of the awkward squad all of my life and if I thought the criteria for posting on here was having to toe a party line then I wouldn’t be here. In particular I would ask you to reflect on:
‘Use the skills and expertise of those in our community to a cast light on matters that those in authority would have concealed’.
I do not read that as presenting a rigid handed-down Manifesto to be slavishly followed but more an evolving co-operative effort to seek the facts and expose the concealers to the searchlight of truth.
UNDERNOTE
The Scottish Football Monitor
The purpose of The Scottish Football Monitor is to pay homage to, and carry on the work of the groundbreaking RangersTaxCase blog (RTC). The aim of the Scottish Football Monitor is to cast a questioning and watchful eye on Scottish Football officialdom and the compliant mainstream media (MSM).
Scottish football, in the immediate wake of the Rangers FC liquidation, faces great challenges. The MSM have provided no sensible checks or balances on the actions of the authorities. The Scottish Football Monitor aims to provide those checks and balance.
The cosy relationship that has existed between the media and people at the top of Scottish Football has dissuaded those who may otherwise be moved to blow the whistle on wrongdoing. The Scottish Football Monitor aims, through time, and by winning the trust of ordinary fans, to fill a gap in the football media in Scotland that has been up to now filled only by RTC.
The Rangers FC saga, its consequences, and consequences of the accompanying stream of untruths and misdirection fed to us by the MSM, is far from over. RTC was successful in getting the previously buried truth of the Rangers tax case into the mainstream despite a hostile MSM reaction. The Scottish Football Monitor hopes to use the skills and expertise of those in our community to a cast light on matters that those in authority would have concealed, or at least present alternative arguments to those being presented as having none.
ecobhoy says:
July 19, 2013 at 2:16 pm
1 0 Rate This
I’ve noticed a few posts this morning about locked-in shares Rangers AIM shares and I think it’s worth putting it into some kind of perspective.
There are 65.1 million RIFC Plc shares which have been issued. The directors + key employees (Ahmad and McCoist) hold 9.25 million shares. Without sight of the Cenkos lock-in letters signed by Green and Ahmad it’s difficult to know if there was any wriggle-room that would let them escape the lock-in now that they are no longer employees. I tend to think it might have been easier for Ahmad to escape the cuffs as he was never a director of RIFC Plc but that might not be the case.
It would also seem that the lock-in period for these 9.25 million shares could be 18 months comprised of an initial 12 months + 6 months orderly market lock.
There was also a now expired 6 months lock-in for 16.375 million of the 24.25 million Institutional Investor shares placed at flotation. Obvviously the fan shares approx 7-8 million from memory are fairly static.
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Yes Eco, my mistake. Should have checked.
I had been working on the false assumption that the institutional investors were locked in for 12 months.
ecobhoy says:
July 19, 2013 at 1:04 pm
Whether I like it or not I clearly understand that the duty of the Celtic Board, in running a publicly quoted company, is to its shareholders. That is the simple stark truth of the matter IMO.
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Let’s ignore the fact that I’m a shareholder, let’s say I’m just a long term season ticket holder. How does completely pissing off people like me, who are the PLC’s bread and butter, its source of income at the end of the day, fit with the Board’s duty to the shareholders? And before you point out that I’m only one old crank out of tens of thousands of season ticket holders, well maybe so, but I don’t think I’m entirely on my own. Any PLC that ignores its customers is heading in only one direction. That really is a simple stark truth, as the Board will soon find out- in my opinion.
HirsutePursuit says:
July 19, 2013 at 2:46 pm
============================================
I didn’t see your post until after I had posted but here is the TRFCL list of shareholders in late October 2012 – The II placed shares have to be added to that as well as the fan offer shares.
I was told there were a few names missing from the TRFCL list and that might have included the Easdales – the last TRFCL shares sold asfaik was 2 million at £1 each. The TRFCL list shows the holders of 19.8 million of the 22 million shares issued.
Blue Pitch Holdings – 4 million
Margarita Funds Holding Trust – 2.6 million
Imran Ahmad, Rangers – 2.2 million
Richard Hughes, Zeus Capital – 2.2 million
Gorbon Ltd – 1.55 million
Norne Anstalt – 1.2 million
Ally McCoist, Rangers – 1 million
Glenmuir – 1 million
Craig Mather – 900k
Andy Hosie – 900k
Ian Hart – 490k
Chris Morgan, Asia Credit Corporation – 400k
Alan Mackenzie – 250k
Jean Haddad – 250k
Malcolm Murray, Rangers – 200k
Colin Howell, Unicorn Asset Mgt – 200k
John McClure, Unicorn Asset Mgt – 200k
John Goold – 100k
Elias Kaisar – 100k
Stephen Adams, Kames Capital – 50k
Brian Stockbridge, Rangers – sub 50k
Ian Cormack – 25k
John Graham – 25k
Charles Green, Rangers – nil.
Green is due a 10% bonus for a successful float, as was disclosed in the May presentation seeking investors. This could come in the form of a 10% stake in the company, approximating to 5 million shares.
ecobhoy says:
July 19, 2013 at 1:27 pm
‘.We would need a small group prepared to commit to creating an acceptable post and if it is going to go out in TSFM name then obviously he should have final say on it. ..’
——–
That is a possible way forward, certainly, and would not require anyone to give up his/her anonymity.
But if only there was a way we could safely have a physical body to act as an authorised ‘action group’ to pursue the objects of the blog.
Communications with the SFA/SPFL/ Club Chairmen/ Supporters’ Associations/ MSM / SportsDirect etc etc would not be dismissed lightly.
(I haven’t asked before, but as a matter of interest, do our moderators and TSFM-the-person know each others identities? Is there the nucleus of a committee, which could be more or less formally constituted as our representatives, to put across to other agencies the considered views of the majority of us posters?)