The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
As usual I’ve read the word ‘cheat’ thrown about in regards to what has taken place down Govan way over the last 15 years or so. No one in the MSM will use this dreaded word in connection with RFC because LNS has not returned a verdict and they only lost five of the EBT charges don’t you know.
Well can anyone answer me this;
How would you describe a club, sorry company, that the owner knows from August is heading for administration and yet he refuses to pay NI and Tax and uses it to continue to keep a competitive team on the park?
I’m just wondering cause I know how I would describe it.
Just listened to Sportsound, first 40 mins all about demise of Rangers. Both Stuart Cosgrove and GrahamSpiers laid the blame at the management of the club. Very truthful approach. Graham stated that they are a new club no matter how rangers fans see it. SDM also got blamed as well as Alistair Johnson and all members of the board at Ibrox.
SFA got stick for the way the have handled/mishandled the issue over the past year.
Really enjoyable and honest approach for a change.
Wating for Barcabhoy,s post mentioned above.
Just skimming over the day’s posts, so not fully up to speed, but it looks like there is a healthy debate with Shields. Emphasis on the word ‘healthy’. Guid oan ye!
Just thought that needed saying.
andy says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 16:15
6 1 Rate This
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/my-budding-media-career-cruelly-delayed-im-not-on-sportsound-tonight/
bbc sportsound discussion on The rangers and social media tonight has been pulled
——————
Andy, Its much more than that IMO; BBC sports reporting in Scotland is as dead as another certain “institution” after this; free speech and journalistic integrity ? Dead. The weird thing is that its not a huge surprise to anyone, and I’m fairly certain it will not cause any big stir, mainly due to the fact that the rest of the media in this country, for want of a better phrase, stinks.
Lord Wobbly on Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 18:42
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Danish and madbhoy24941
…. Listening to BBC Sportsound just now and it seems Stuart Cosgrove and Graha Spiers agree with me.
———-
I think we all wobble with you on that Wobbly. Personally, I thought the TE article was good related to 14 Feb last year. I doubt he thinks any different from SC on the rest of the culprits. Mr Spiers a bit more bullish these days?
5starsorbehindbars says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:09
Andy, Its much more than that IMO; BBC sports reporting in Scotland is as dead as another certain “institution” after this;
——
I have to disagree. It sounds to me like the producer wanted Paul McConville and Chris Graham to go head to head. Which would have been interesting, to say the least.
When Mr Graham chickened out (sorry – I mean was “otherwise occupied in London”), the point of the debate was defeated.
Hopefully, another date when both can make it will be sorted out. Mr Graham – we await your acceptance of such a date eagerly.
Jim Spence, Stuart Cosgrove and Graham Spiers on BBC radio earlier, discussing the 12 months since Rangers entered administration, to be subsequently liquidated. Very good discussion, well done to all concerned.
willmacufree says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 18:23
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In the face of strenuous objection by HMRC, Lord Hodge appointed the apparently heavily conflicted administrators, Duff & Phelps. I think it was last July that LH then asked D&P to report on that suspected confliction. Has there been any progress on that? Will it be quietly forgotten? It would be strange if the professional body is not very concerned.
=========================================================
Re above. I have bleated long and loud about LH’s apparently dilatory tactics in this matter.
A cursory glance at his Lordship’s distinguished career on Wikipedia, shows that between 1991-96, he was the Standing Junior Counsel for no less a body than the Inland Revenue.
With such a background and his former employer’s well kent interest in both RFC and D & D’s handling of the admuinistration, one might have thoughrt this matter might have been treated a bit more expeditiously.
Danish Pastry says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:10
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Lord Wobbly on Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 18:42
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Danish and madbhoy24941
…. Listening to BBC Sportsound just now and it seems Stuart
Cosgrove and Graha Spiers agree with me.
———-
I think we all wobble with you on that Wobbly. Personally, I
thought the TE article was good related to 14 Feb last year. I
doubt he thinks any different from SC on the rest of the culprits.
Mr Spiers a bit more bullish these days?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m not sure if he (Spiers) is or whether it just seems that way.
What I do think is that Traynor’s formalisation (is that a word?) of his Ibrox association has given the remaining hacks a license to have a pop. A pop that has only been legitimized by Alex Thomson’s confirmation of Traynor’s symbiotic relationship with Whyte (and one can only assume 😉 SDM).
dentarthurdent42 says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:19
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Jim Spence, Stuart Cosgrove and Graham Spiers on BBC radio
earlier, discussing the 12 months since Rangers entered
administration, to be subsequently liquidated. Very good
discussion, well done to all concerned.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
T’wasn’t Spency. T’was Kenny McIntyre
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
So far, every official decision has been FOR RFC/Sevco – i don’t see LNS breaking that trend
====================================
Me neither. Anything within the gift of the Scottish establishment has gone in their favour. If the Scottish Government was responsible for raising its own taxes I can only assume they would still be in the SPL settling the bill on easy terms never made public.
Green: We are Rising
“I AM acutely aware that 12 months ago, this great football club was plunged into a financial catastrophe – the impact of which is still being felt throughout Scottish football.
However, today everyone involved at Rangers – the supporters, staff, players and our many business partners – can take great pride in the fact that not only did the club survive such a difficult time, it can look to the future with confidence and a firm belief that we can , again, achieve great things.
I would like to take the opportunity this week to put a few things straight. In all the recent debate and commentary there has been repeated mentions of Rangers blaming everyone else for what happened to the club. Not me.
When I led a consortium to purchase the club, it was abundantly clear to us that Rangers was in administration because the previous owner, Mr Whyte, deliberately withheld PAYE and VAT from HMRC. It is a simple as that.
Of course, people mull over how Mr Whyte found himself in a position to take control of the club but that is another matter.
Where I do take issue with people and the organisations they represent is the shocking inconsistency that was shown towards Rangers at various stages after my consortium took control of the club. I cannot think of another chief executive that would not have stood up for his club’s interests in such circumstances.
For example, HMRC gave a clear impression they would actively consider a CVA as an exit from administration and now say that was not a realistic option. If HMRC had said that from the off there would have been a great deal of angst avoided.
The football authorities got themselves tied up in knots trying to deal with the situation and left many people, not just us at Rangers, in little doubt they were making it up as they went along.
That is why we have been so exercised about the SPL’s EBT Commission. At one stage the football authorities were perfectly prepared to deal with this issue as part of an overall package to resolve the Rangers situation and then….they didn’t.
For Rangers fans, those issues understandably caused resentment and left a bitter taste in the mouth.
That said, as a club we are not just ready to move on – we have moved on.
The successful flotation of the Club on the Alternative Investment Market was the biggest single step on the road to recovery.
That fact that our business could attract in excess of £22 million of investment in a challenging economic climate was heart-warming testament to the belief of investors from City institutions to individual fans. Shares have performed well and the capitalisation of the club has meant that we have very sound financial foundations for the future.
No effort will be spared in pursuing avenues where our financial security can be developed and enhanced and we will be making announcements regarding this in due course.
All along, we have known that the rebuilding of the club on the pitch will take time and we are prepared for that. Given the events of the last year, Ally McCoist deserves everyone’s full support as he and his team continue to make the Rangers team strong again.
Finally, the most outstanding feature of the last year has been Rangers fans themselves. Nothing could have prepared me for what I have seen at Ibrox and around the world.
Loyalty is an overused word but the attitude of Rangers supporters in the last 12 months to the Club they love has been the true essence of loyalty and humbling to witness.
Moreover, the strength of character shown by supporters has won recognition and admiration both here and internationally. Every Rangers supporter stands tall today and can look forward. We are on the way back.”
On whether Rangers or Craig Whyte was responsible for them not paying Tax / NI and VAT.
This comes from a recent tribunal ruling, in relation to Falkirk
“The situation is rather different in regard to Mr Craig. Firstly, since he was Managing Director, he was in fact “the Club” and his actions in that role were as the Club. Accordingly, the fact that he did not ensure timeous payment, knowing as he did the problems in the previous year and the availability of TTP would make it very difficult to argue that he was unaware of the potential problems caused by late payment of PAYE. The Tribunal finds no reasonable excuse in his actions.”
http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKFTT/TC/2012/TC02262.html
There is a specious argument, which has gone about for a while that Craig Whyte didn’t pay the tax and VAT, it wasn’t Rangers. That is nonsense. It is the taxpayer who fails to pay, that was Rangers. The actions of the board are the actions of the legal entity, that was Rangers.
Rangers failed to pay a large sum of money which didn’t belong to them, it belonged to the Government. They stole that money and used it to keep the club running. This is not failing to pay something like corporation tax, it is failing to hand over money you have collected. It is stealing by any reasonable definition.
Oh and a CVA, it was never going to happen and everyone involve had to know that. Certainly the administrators. The CVA was a farce from the start. That is why the pre-determined sale to Mr Green was clearly the plan all along. Why else agree a price “if” the CVA failed.
Lord Wobbly says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:24
=======================
Fair enough, I was sure I heard one of the others call him Jim and describe his own team as Dundee United. I must have picked it up wrong.
HirsutePursuit says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 15:56
I disagree, there was never any chance at all that HMRC would agree a CVA.
Not for the type of tax concerned. This was money which had been collected and spent, not tax due on profits which was under debate.
Danish Pastry says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:10
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Lord Wobbly on Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 18:42
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Danish and madbhoy24941
…. Listening to BBC Sportsound just now and it seems Stuart Cosgrove and Graha Spiers agree with me.
———-
I think we all wobble with you on that Wobbly. Personally, I thought the TE article was good related to 14 Feb last year. I doubt he thinks any different from SC on the rest of the culprits. Mr Spiers a bit more bullish these days?
————————————————————————————————————————-
Yes it would seem that Mr Spiers is heading in the right direction,now that the bully in the playground has gone.
Still prone to the odd vacillation or ten.Changes with the wind.
Cosgrove and Spence stand true.
Extremely good summary of all the myths James Forrest.
Seems a shame to disagree but I’m sure you won’t mind. I only disagree with your last point regarding the Rangers fans being partly to blame. Well, I’m not disagreeing, just questioning. Saying Rangers fans are partly to blame would be similar to saying mortgage applicants were to blame for the banking crisis.
They certainly didn’t put up any resistance during the SDM years and, as a result, I guess you can say they were partly to blame. However, can you ever imagine a scenario where fans would question or even protest against their club whilst being successful?
I just can’t picture that scenario and can’t recall that ever happening elsewhere.
Could be a bit unfair to blame them when there wasn’t a reasonable alternative.
angus1983 says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:18
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5starsorbehindbars says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:09
Andy, Its much more than that IMO; BBC sports reporting in
Scotland is as dead as another certain “institution” after this;
——
I have to disagree. It sounds to me like the producer wanted Paul McConville and Chris Graham to go head to head. Which would have been interesting, to say the least.
When Mr Graham chickened out (sorry – I mean was “otherwise occupied in London”), the point of the debate was defeated.
Hopefully, another date when both can make it will be sorted out.
Mr Graham – we await your acceptance of such a date eagerly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was (half) watching a twitter chat today about why Paul (a non-Ibrox fan) should be invited to discuss Rangers/The Rangers issues.
Gers fans thought only Gers fans should discuss the Gers. Non Gers fans should butt out.
What is it that they are afraid of?
I’m a Celtic fan. I welcome non-Celtic fans questioning of all things Celtic. I’m for Scottish Independence but I welcome those who question its viabiality. I’m a fan of progressive rock but I welcome those who challenge it *.
If there is a debate about any subject I want to hear reasoned argument from all sides. I certainly don’t want to hear a one-sided debate.
* if that doesn’t lure a former NME contributor nothing will!
PS I would never argue with Lord Wobbly,never.
But it was Spence
Shield2012. What would be the response of the Rangers fans if Walter had not spent additional millions whilst Rangers were up to their necks in debt. Walt often put a more expensive team on the park than Celtic.
As for your clubs history, surely, any decent minded TRFC fan would be happy to put the history of your old club to bed and want to promote a modern all inclusive club. You know as well as I your fan base has a long way to go to reach the 20th century and you are not alone. Celtic also has a small number fighting battles in Ireland that have long since ended.
rantinrobin says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:46
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PS I would never argue with Lord Wobbly,never.
But it was Spence
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Really?
Jeezo, I must be worse than I thought.
Nurse!
Lord Wobbly says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:46
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was (half) watching a twitter chat today about why Paul (a non-Ibrox fan) should be invited to discuss Rangers/The Rangers issues.
Gers fans thought only Gers fans should discuss the Gers. Non Gers fans should butt out.
What is it that they are afraid of?
I’m a Celtic fan. I welcome non-Celtic fans questioning of all things Celtic. I’m for Scottish Independence but I welcome those who question its viabiality. I’m a fan of progressive rock but I welcome those who challenge it *.
If there is a debate about any subject I want to hear reasoned argument from all sides. I certainly don’t want to hear a one-sided debate.
* if that doesn’t lure a former NME contributor nothing will!
———
It’s so important to gauge whether someones mind is open or closed before entering into a discussion/debate.
The first option results in interesting chats. The latter leads to utter frustration and despair.
It’s ok LW,you are still the finest peer of them all.
Been on the Rangers forums again, hoping to see some realisation that James Traynor was complicit in lying to them. Nothing. I won’t be back on those sites. They are populated by a particularly hateful type of moron. It left me feeling decidedly unclean, and rather saddened.
The James Traynor story only matters if Rangers fans see the significance, and they clearly don’t have the wit to see it. So as it stands, its an embarassing story about a failed and conflicted hack who has alienated himself from his former colleagues with recent comments and finally been shown for the toady he is. Not the smartest thing for a Head of Communications to do.
Not exactly the “nuclear” story I hoped for. Are we due something with a bit more fisionable material to it?
I was Multi-tasking last night. Listening to SSB while flicking between regional news to see what if anything was mentioned of AT’s scathing report on JT (more fool me….shoulda known better).
Just as I was about to give up as S Dougal was pontificating on how fly Juve defenders were in avoiding any penalty decisions by ceasing their shenanigans before the ball was in play on SSB….simultaneously the telly was showing Hoops being battered and Skoosh wrestled as the ball sailed passed and eventually out of play!
Imagine my further surprise when not one of the panel on radio or the reporters on telly pointed out the error of his statements!
Back to the bhoycott of this hogwash for this Bhoy.
PS. Have I somehow missed the second stage of scandal due out today or has it been postponed?
Just a wee comment on Paul mcConville not being allowed on BBC Sportsound as they could not find an alternative view to “balance” things.
Could someone please explain then to me what “balance” Radio Clyde have with almost 100% TRFC pundits
rantinrobin says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:59
2 0 Rate This
It’s ok LW,you are still the finest peer of them all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That’s not true on any level, but I appreciate the sentiment.
In truth it is the fault of the medium that is radio that caused my confusion. Now, if only someone could come up with a way of transmitting pictures along with sound so that I can put a face to the voice? 😀
Craig White on Sky sport now interview!!!
i am always surprised at how well facebook is policed in relation to these well known football sites that should really be shut down
beatipacificiscotia on Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 20:00
Re the Nuclear event.
Since RFC went into admin and the liquidation – no acknowledgement of wrong doing on their part. No effort to say sorry.
Clear case of a leppard not changing its spots.
On that observation I am convinced that there are still sins of the past that have yet to have some sunlight shone upon them.
If the sins are whoopers – only time will tell.
chipsandblog says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:50
Shield2012. What would be the response of the Rangers fans if Walter had not spent additional millions whilst Rangers were up to their necks in debt. Walt often put a more expensive team on the park than Celtic.
—————-
The last few years of Walters Smith’s reign was a time when fans DID finally realise that things had to change. I’d say it was generally accepted by the fans, albeit reluctantly, that they couldn’t go out and buy the players they once did. There were cutbacks and players were sold without buying replacement which reduced their debt. I don’t know the figures but I suspect the Celtic team, during those years, was more expensive.
Regarding your second point, I would love a new all-inclusive club. This would mean society in the west of Scotland had improved massively and I wouldn’t have to move to Aberdeen to get away from it all! Essentially, I’m saying it is an unfortunate problem in our society.
timalloy67 says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 20:12
Radio Clyde don’t have a duty to ensure balanced reporting like the BBC. Radio Clyde can fill the panel with Rangers cheerleaders and apologists any time they like (and frequently do).
Senior says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 20:12
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Craig White on Sky sport now interview!!!
———-
Very short. Surely there must be more? Gives the impression he’s holding a few aces.
Nice weather in Monte Carlo though.
angus1983 says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:18
6 0 Rate This
5starsorbehindbars says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:09
Andy, Its much more than that IMO; BBC sports reporting in Scotland is as dead as another certain “institution” after this;
——
I have to disagree. It sounds to me like the producer wanted Paul McConville and Chris Graham to go head to head. Which would have been interesting, to say the least.
When Mr Graham chickened out (sorry – I mean was “otherwise occupied in London”), the point of the debate was defeated.
Hopefully, another date when both can make it will be sorted out. Mr Graham – we await your acceptance of such a date eagerly.
—————
Angus, I appreciate your point, however…. Chris Graham was on Sportsound in January; there wasn’t any “big debate” organised. So now we have one guest declining to turn up; it shouldn’t stop another guest from being on the show. Its clear bias IMO.
There has been some discussion about the failure of Rangers.
The fundamental issue is that Rangers fans believed and possibly still believe that financially their club is the same size, or bigger than Celtic. I’m afraid that simply wasn’t true, but they could not face up to it. They overspent as a matter of choice for years, simply because to do otherwise was unacceptable. It was to acknowledge that at least financially they were the second largest club in Scotland.
Celtic have a couple of obvious advantages.
Nike Deal – £25m – £29m guaranteed over a 5 year period. Minimum of £5m a season. Rangers had nothing like that and Peter Lawwell actually managed to re-negotiate it, which at the time was stunning.
Higher gates, on average about 4,000 per home gate. That has to be about £2m per year. Say £1.5m after VAT
Better revenues from merchandising, from memory about £1.5m per annum.
Those are effectively net figures and come to about £8m per annum.
For business who based on domestic income alone are really looking at breaking even that is a huge difference. Particularly as it is such a high proportion of turnover.
Rangers and their fans never accepted this, they expected their club to if anything outspend Celtic. that money had to come from somewhere. Initially it was borrowing, at the end it was spending other people’s money.
I have seen little to make me think the Rangers’ fans feel differently. Their supremacist attitude and expectation of success is still there. It won’t be long before they expect Mr Green, or whoever, to “get the chequebook out”.
According to Scotland Tonight, Chris Graham is on tonight with Tom English. Funny, I thought he was busy in that London.
shield2012 says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 20:21
A popular Smith myth has been the view that he worked on a shoestring second time around.
Far from it. In the infamous Kaunas season he overseen spending of circa £18+M. Hardly cutting back.
This was ratified by the 1872 board at a time when the BTC was ongoing. A key reason for 1872 no longer existing.
often on the old 606 i listed the transfer costs of the Celtic and Rangers teams. The Rangers team was usually the more expensive team.
I have to agree that Rangers are a small club compared to Celtic. Its a mainly west of Scotland Nrthrn ireland club.
as for “balanced” reasoning or debate on bbc – having smudger + billy dodds + chic young on, certainly doesn’t = “Balanced”.
they will not accept sevco and The rangers are one and the same, as all they did was change their name to suit, and they also will not accept that sevco/The rangers are a different entity from rangers2012 who are now in LIQUIDATION.
hardly balanced reasoning, considering facts and proof to the contrary of what they “believe”
Senior says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 20:14
13 0 Rate This
Surprising how many on here entertain Shield2012s obfuscation.
He, despite the overwhelming evidence, continues to promulgate the number of angels that may share the point of a needle.
Anyone who has watched this scandal unfold over the past
eighteen months has to be acting the Devil’s Advocate if he
proffers the argument that Oldco did not cheat – even my old
tabby who is deaf and half blind nods when I ask him if Oldco
cheated.
I also welcome Shield2012′s presence here; he helps to brighten the day, albeit unintentionally.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
No-one is suggesting you have to agree with him. There is no doubt in my mind that Rangers have cheated Scottish football, Scottish society and their own fans. It’s the reasonable debate that I enjoyed. That is a compliment to the posters on here more than anything else.
A thought……Is JT still working undercover?
If I were CG or any high up in the 2012’s corridors I would watch my p & q’s. Scoop Traynor works in mysterious ways.
timalloy67 says:
Just a wee comment on Paul mcConville not being allowed on BBC Sportsound as they could not find an alternative view to “balance” things.
========================================================
I remember once asking a senior person in BBC Scotland Sports department why there was such an imbalance of pundits on the show. I pointed out that they had (at the time) Gordon Smith, Billy Dodds, Craig Paterson and Sandy Clark on the show, with the only pundit at the time with a Celtic connection being Murdo McLeod. Leaving aside the heavy criticism Murdo frequently throws in Celtic’s direction, he was, at the time of asking, recovering from a serious illness, therefore BBC Scotland was 100% Rangers in terms of reporting on the big two.
The answer I was given was that while the BBC must ensure neutrality in political debates, there is no need to do so in terms of sport. The Rangers pundits, in his opinion, were more than capable of being fair to Celtic and were professional enough not to let their obvious love of Rangers cloud their judgement. Now on the day we are told Paul McConville could not go on because of ‘imbalance’, the BBC Scotland website carries a sugar coated story from Gordon Smith on how positive the future is for Rangers, how rich they are, and how they will soon be beating Celtic again.
I conclude that Celtic really have no chance of truly fair representation in the Scottish media.
Smartie 1947 @ 18.20
Yes indeed, and the more we bang on the more chance of a fair resolution (nearly like the woman and the unjust judge parable, no connection to anybody alive or dead, I hasten to add).
Senior says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 20:14
Surprising how many on here entertain Shield2012s obfuscation. He, despite the overwhelming evidence, continues to promulgate the number of angels that may share the point of a needle.
Anyone who has watched this scandal unfold over the past eighteen months has to be acting the Devil’s Advocate if he proffers the argument that Oldco did not cheat – even my old tabby who is deaf and half blind nods when I ask him if Oldco cheated.
I also welcome Shield2012′s presence here; he helps to brighten the day, albeit unintentionally.
————
Not entertaining obfuscation results in no debate whatsoever so it’s hardly surprising? I may be confused over some aspects but I’m absolutely certain that I don’t want to be here for your entertainment so we can agree to end that debate for now.
Incidentally, I think my original point was rapidly forgotten during the debate.
Smartie 1947
Sorry Smartie, you were @ 19.20
upthehoops says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 21:03
9 0 Rate This
timalloy67 says:
Just a wee comment on Paul mcConville not being allowed on BBC Sportsound as they could not find an alternative view to
“balance” things.
=================================================
I remember once asking a senior person in BBC Scotland Sports department why there was such an imbalance of pundits on the show. I pointed out that they had (at the time) Gordon Smith, Billy Dodds, Craig Paterson and Sandy Clark on the show, with the only pundit at the time with a Celtic connection being Murdo McLeod. Leaving aside the heavy criticism Murdo frequently throws in Celtic’s direction, he was, at the time of asking, recovering from a serious illness, therefore BBC Scotland was 100% Rangers in terms of reporting on the big two.
The answer I was given was that while the BBC must ensure
neutrality in political debates, there is no need to do so in terms of sport. The Rangers pundits, in his opinion, were more than capable of being fair to Celtic and were professional enough not to let their obvious love of Rangers cloud their judgement. Now on the day we are told Paul McConville could not go on because of ‘imbalance’, the BBC Scotland website carries a sugar coated story from Gordon Smith on how positive the future is for Rangers, how rich they are, and how they will soon be beating Celtic again.
I conclude that Celtic really have no chance of truly fair
representation in the Scottish media.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don’t conclude. Challenge. Everything.
At the same time, we must embrace challenge on here.
I think we do.
Mostly.
upthehoops says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 21:03
Forgive me for saying but you are falling into the Rangers/Celtic trap.
The issues discussed here are not about Ranger/Celtic but about how our game is governed and run.
It is about every club’s fans feeling that they have been wronged not once but twice. The first wrong took place on the field of play where a team won trophies against their respective clubs fielding players that they either could not afford or had no intention of paying for. The second wrong took place in the corridors of power where the suits decided tthat the game needed the playgroud bully more than it needed a strong Motherwell, Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts, St. Johnstone, or Inverness etc (no order intended). Throw in the third wrong where the timid, meek media are re-writing history before our very eyes and is it any wonder that the game is dying on its feet where the people in power would rather destroy the whole game if the mighty Rangers cease to exist.
The sporting integrity and the game are everything and without everyone playing evenly then it is lost and with it thousands of fans.
Noting the continual failure to report accurately on The Rangers. This massaging of truth and feeding delusions that they are cash rich and debt free when in truth the money has all but run out surely does the sevconians no favours. They will presumably be utterly stunned when it all goes belly up again. Their willingness to follow blindly and the reluctance of the msm and the bbc properly to report on The Rangers has once again led them into a state of deluded ignorance from which only disaster -again- can awaken them.
dentarthurdent42 says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 20:30
There has been some discussion about the failure of Rangers.
——
I must’ve missed that.
🙂
justshatered says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 21:27
==================================
I was simply responding to the news that BBC Scotland apparently refused to allow Paul McConville on by pointing out a senior person in the BBC told me previously the team people are associated with is immaterial. I accept that perhaps my final line was too polarised in its view.
I am well aware of the wider implications and how it affects all fans. Indeed, I feel eternally proud that all fans stood together to prevent one almighty wrong taking place by allowing the newco direct entry to either the SPL or Division 1.
dentarthurdent42 says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 19:40
4 0 Rate This
HirsutePursuit says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 15:56
I disagree, there was never any chance at all that HMRC would agree a CVA.
Not for the type of tax concerned. This was money which had been collected and spent, not tax due on profits which was under debate.
=======================
I think that is the point I was making.
To keep BDO and others at bay, Charles Green and D&P need to maintain the stance that they were honestly working towards an achievable CVA. Central to that effort, is their allegation that HMRC had initially indicated a willingness to accept a pennies in the £ offer.
Mr Green cannot now admit that there was never any such HMRC indication. If he did, given HMRC stated policy of rejecting CVAs, it becomes immediately clear that a CVA was never actually achievable.
If a CVA was not a realistic possibility – and it seems to me that it was not – the first statutory purpose of administration (rescuing the club as a going concern) could never be achieved. The Insolvency Practitioners Association, BDO and Lord Hodge should all be considering these circumstances.
They all may wonder if the binding contract that Charles Green agreed with D&P used the stated (but apparently unachievable) ambition of fulfilling the 1st statutory purpose of administration as a cover for transferring the Rangers FC assets to Sevco Scotland for less than their true value.
As a matter of interest (in answer to some earlier queries) Lord Hodge is awaiting the outcome of the Insolvency Practitioners Association investigation and report before taking a formal view on the conduct of D&P.
Smartie 1947,
I think HP has just answered our question. Thank you Hirsute Pursuit. I think you had actually told us that before. I had forgotten.
upthehoops says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 21:41
Fair do’s but I’m afraid that I passed the point of believing in the MSM, or BBC a long time ago in this debacle.
I no longer have any faith in them to get the basics facts right in this story. If even one of them had really got their teeth into this story at the begining they would have had a prize winning book out of it but the stench of cronyism, cynicism, nepotism, call it what you wantism has left me wondering not just about sports journalism but about all of the media.I mean if this is how they deal with a story like this what else are they not reporting.
The media are desperate to sell papers on the back of an ‘Old Firm’ tag because they are that lazy and incompetent they cannot think of another way to portray our game.
It truly is a damning indictment of media
The SFA are such a joke that no one even bothers with them any more and indeed why should they as, according to Stewart Regan, they actually have no power anyway. Meanwhile Campbell Ogilvie still can’t do his job and is still getting paid. Disgrace barely covers it but as we have all seen over the last fourteen months not one of the main players in this scandal has any shame whatsoever.
The word spiv is thrown about on this website and it is not a word I personally care for.
I call these people ‘chancers’. From the media to administrators our game is littered with them. Well they have all been found out and it is time for them to go.
I read this last night:
http://johnpilger.com/articles/welcome-to-the-shammies-the-media-awards-that-recognise-truly-unsung-talent
The media, BBC et al, are a propaganda arm of the establishment, no more no less.
Am I being too OT?
Mostly.
timalloy67 says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 20:12
37 0 i Rate This
Just a wee comment on Paul mcConville not being allowed on BBC Sportsound as they could not find an alternative view to “balance” things.
thats a wee bit ironic.
but not surprising – on the day they had AT on discussing jims lamb problem, every sports bulletin was promising glorious times ahead for sevco, quoting G Smiths idiocy & then Chuck.
alison did say liquidated a few times though, which was nice.
Lord Wobbly says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 21:24
The BBC Scotland website carries a sugar coated story from Gordon Smith on how positive the future is for Rangers, how rich they are.
============================
I think Gordon might be mistaking Rangers International PLC for The Rangers FC Ltd.
The former floated on the stock market and had an IPO, seemingly raising millions of pounds. The latter is a 4th division football club, currently running at a loss with a seriously flawed business model.
The former owns the latter, however they are not the same thing. Far from it.
It is worth bearing in mind that the board of the PLC (the holding company) has a primary responsibility of looking after the best interests of it’s shareholders. That may mean lending money to the PLC, it may not. If it does it will almost certainly mean charging the club for those loans. The club cannot survive without them. Mr Green, who runs both, predicts a £3.5m loss this season.
Similarly the board of the Ltd company has a duty to look after the best interests of it’s shareholder. It’s only shareholder is the PLC.
In short, the holding company / PLC may well be rich, but the Ltd Co isn’t. Worse than that, everyone involved is responsible for the shareholders in the PLC. No-one has a legal responsibility to look after the interests of the club, or it’s fans. Unless they happen to co-incide with the best interests of the shareholders of the PLC.
HirsutePursuit says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 21:50
To keep BDO and others at bay, Charles Green and D&P need to maintain the stance that they were honestly working towards an achievable CVA. Central to that effort, is their allegation that HMRC had initially indicated a willingness to accept a pennies in the £ offer.
===========================
Given that BDO are now to all intents and purposes working for HMRC in the liquidation it is unlikely that they will be able to maintain that particular lie. There is no conceivable way that HMRC would have indicated that, and if there was any proof it happened that would be in the public domain by now.
HMRC, are not going to debunk it in public, for now. However they have come as close to it as they could by making it clear the rejection was based on their policy with regard to the nature of the debt. .
That is different from the private discussions they will have with BDO, as the court appointed liquidator. The one they chose. It is perhaps worth remembering that they were entirely sanguine with regard the administrator, but effectively appointed the liquidator themselves.
This whole thing is worth reading, particularly with hindsight
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/105837-rangers-liquidation-now-inevitable-after-cva-bid-rejected-by-hmrc/
In particular
“Paul Clark, joint administrator, said: “The reasons HMRC have given to us for their decision to vote against the proposal are as follows. HMRC has cited its general policy of not agreeing to a CVA where there is strong evidence of non-compliance by a company with its tax liabilities.”
On the question of impartiality at BBC Scotland, I recall Archie (whoof) McPherson telling of a situation which had developed between the Corporation and Jock Stein, then manager at Celtic. It seems, according to Archie, Stein had taken umbrage with them and refused interviews for quite a considerable period of time. In fact following the 1969 Cup Final victory over Rangers, Stein on being asked for an interview bluntly refused. He did however indicate that he would be willing to speak to David Coleman in London who was anchorman in the Saturday “Grandstand” programme.
Therefore a rather startled and bemused Coleman found himself interviewing the Celtic manager by radio link from a London studio to talk about a game he obviously had not even witnessed.
Some time later McPherson and Stein were both attending a sporting function at which Archie took the opportunity to broach the subject of the big man’s reasons for blanking everything associated with Queen Margaret Drive. The conversation went along these lines, ( Archie) “Jock, can I ask why Exactly you want nothing to do with BBC Scotland”.? (Stein), .. “you want me to tell you exactly”? “Well exactly how many RCs work in the BBC”? .. To which Archie responded “Exactly?…… None”! ……. Stein retorted……….”Exactly”!
McPherson told that story much better than I possibly could. But Jock had made his point.
bbc scotland sport and the newspapers had better change and throw out the old guard or face a slow demise. as for radio clyde, we need a division 3 radio show.
So no second night of fun but Craigy sticking his nose out. a few other flutters on the airwaves. RTC flitting about. Somethings up.
As Mr Steins first customer in the Fotheringay arms at the age of 16 I can tell you that Archie/BBC story has deeper roots.
ianagain, spill
justshatered says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 22:12
The media are desperate to sell papers on the back of an ‘Old Firm’ tag because they are that lazy and incompetent they cannot think of another way to portray our game.
It truly is a damning indictment of media
===============================================
There is no doubt that the media have been shamefully guilty of writing and speaking of our game in an incredibly negative sense, and everything seems to point to this state of affairs being solely down to Rangers not being in the SPL. When they see we ‘need’ a strong Rangers they of course mean a Rangers that is stronger than everyone else. They will of course not mind Celtic being strong too, as long as they are not stronger than Rangers. They would also like the rest to be strong, as long as they’re not strong enough to beat Rangers often enough to cost them the league. That is the legacy of the greed and win at any costs attitude of the Murray years. As one who vividly remembers the success of Aberdeen and Dundee Utd in the 80’s I do not believe the media’s desire for Rangers to perpetually rule was the same as it is now. Murray and his arrogance, backed up by a Scottish owned bank who clearly saw Rangers as their plaything, was the real game changer.
And Jock was a … “non denominational” … eventually! Ridiculous! Get religion out of here! Please!
Personal between the two of them. We went there on hearing the jointly owned bar was opening in our best gaberdine long coats over the school shirts to be served personally by the big man. Absolutely top afternoon.
if you asked me last year to write a fictional story based on RFC AND TRFC i would have said
Murray, large tax case, struggling empire, some RFC debt, call buddy, sell for £1, pay no tax at all because we will liquidate, ditch debt, sell for a pittance, pretend new club is old club, continue in spl if possible, sell back to buddies of original owner minus debts and tax liabilities. the end.
ianagain says:
Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 23:06(Edit)
As Mr Steins first customer in the Fotheringay arms at the age of 16 I can tell you that Archie/BBC story has deeper roots.
_______________________________________________________________-
There was a pretty serious problem with Peter Thompson, or “Blue Peter” as Stein dubbed him (he also referred to Richard Park by the epithet “Ibrox”).
I’m also pretty sure that the question Stein asked Archie wasn’t specifically about the religion of BBC workers (from memory it was about the football allegiances of the Sports Dept.), but I can check that directly tomorrow.
Thompson was very anti-Celtic according to those (including Archie Mac) who worked there. He was at that time (late 50s early 60s) all powerful at BBC Scotland sport and noised Stein and Celtic up a lot, however from knowledge and experience of those working today in BBC News, that culture simply does not exist any longer.
Mistakes and errors of judgement may be made, but not on the basis of religion or football allegiance in my opinion.
I was dismayed by the shoals of comments on HERE about a CL match on Tuesday, leading me to think that I can see why the wee arra peeple might mistake this place for KDS.
I had no interest in the result of that game but still retain my keen interest in clarifying all that is wrong with Scottish Football. I was sure there were better places than this blog for the Bhoys to wail and moan, without a hint of irony, about how hard life is against a better financed team.
My team is a wee diddy team and I could really tell ye about that subject – but NOT on HERE.
I didn’t post on Tuesday.
This evening the same gut-sickening feeling crept over me with the “Us Bhoys are especially hard done to by the BBC” patter.
I have been an avid follower of PMcC – and like him would love to see his Meedjah career take off. It wasn’t to be this time but I’d still expect that opportunities for an amusing and erudite man like himself will come again.
Please Bhoys, try to see that TSFM is really not ALL ABOUT YOU. I won’t make excuses for the MSM but today is especially RANGERS day. It’s not Celtic’s day – it’s THEIR big day!
If anything… all Scotland should be remembering along with them, rather than navel-gazing. As should we – on HERE especially.
The plethora of TDs I now expect will not put me off this place (been here and RTC since early summer 2010), but what will put me off is it turning into KDS.
I can understand the Mods doing nothing. There’s been a lot of perverse and wilful posting about stuff that need not concern us on HERE, done by Bhoys who should know better.
And even worse, so much of that stuff displays little sign of wit or humour. I can take that when it’s off-topic. 🙂
If today is The Rangers day as you call it, perhaps the new clubs badge should be 5 doves, and the figure of the winged Cupid.
From Twitter:
georgegalloway:
I called on Glasgow Rangers to pay the tax they owe to the country. Was that edited out of tonight’s show @bbcqt?
Richard Wilson’s mask slipped there did it not? So when WE come back.
Religion and or anti-Irish racism seems to be the elephant in the room. The truth that dare not speak it’s name. A bit like the MSM and the liquidation word.
I don’t mind moderation but at times the policy on this board seems to smack more of unadulterated censorship. Certain posters and viewpoints seem to have carte blanche or does it just depend on the personal viewpoint of the mysterious moderators on that shift?
Having tuped over from RTC I can only say the previous regime was far more liberal. If some banter between posters is so frowned upon then this blog will have sown it’s own seeds of a slow lingering death. Much like the voodoo economics of the Sur Minty regime.
You can pump as much drugs/money into a horse/club as you like but if there is a cancer lying at the heart of the beast then it may win the odd race but ultimately all you will be left with is a festering rancid corpse.
If Chris Graham could not appear on the BBC programme tonight as he would be in London, who was the doppelganger called Chris Graham who was on Scotland Tonight at 22.30pm in the STV studio with Tom English and host John McKay?
From Twitter:
georgegalloway:
Nothing I have ever said @bbcqt has been edited out. EVER. Why was Rangers tax dodge censored? And by whom? #bbcqt