The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
http://m.stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/rangers/214752-rangers-pay-settlement-to-rapid-vienna-for-nikica-jelavic-transfer/
Rapid Vienna have reached an agreement with Rangers for outstanding monies due for the transfer of Nikica Jelavic, the Austrian side have said in a statement.
Charles Green agreed to pay all football debt to clubs as part of a deal to have Rangers’ membership of the Scottish FA transferred to his new company in July 2012.
Despite reaching settlements with other European sides, Rapid remained unpaid as negotiations continued on how much was due from Rangers to the Austrian side.
According to Rangers’ failed CVA in the summer, Rapid were owed 1.18m euros but have settled for a payment of 820,000 euros, which they have received.
Rapid are still pursuing the oldco, which is in liquidation, for the full 1.18m euros owed.
A spokesperson for the club told STV: “We received the money from the new Rangers company yesterday (Tuesday) to our bank and the matter with them is closed.
“We have assured them we will not raise any dispute with FIFA which could have potentially blocked their participation in future European competitions.
“We are still trying to recover the full amount from the old Rangers company, but we understand this may take many months.”
The money was due as a third and final installement for the transfer of the player to Rangers in the summer of 2010.
Rapid president Rudolf Edlinger told the club’s website: “We have achieved this after a long and intense but very constructive discussions with the owners of the new Rangers over the payment.”
STV has received confirmation from GAIS, Orebro and Palermo they too have received negotiated amounts from Green over amounts due for the transfers of Mervan Celik, Alejandro Bedoya and Dorin Goian respectively.
St Etienne have declined to comment on whether they have been paid for money due for the sale of Carlos Bocanegra to Rangers in the summer of 2011.
STV understands the Scottish FA set no deadline for the repayment of football debts to clubs when the condition was set in the membership transfer from oldco to newco.
STV understands the Scottish FA set no deadline for the repayment of football debts to clubs when the condition was set in the membership transfer from oldco to newco.
Just like the EBT loans – no repayment date 🙂
Are Everton still due any payments for Jelavic? If not then, that’s a dead duck, end of story. But if so, will the payments go to the oldco creditors as Jelavic was never a newco player? Or if they go to newco, can Everton negotiate a hefty discount?
Long Time Lurker on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:45
5 0 Rate This
STV understands the Scottish FA set no deadline for the repayment of football debts to clubs when the condition was set in the membership transfer from oldco to newco.
——–
How do they know or understand that there is no timeline for payment? JT leaking it, STV guessing it.
TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:55
0 0 Rate This
Are Everton still due any payments for Jelavic? If not then, that’s a dead duck, end of story. But if so, will the payments go to the oldco creditors as Jelavic was never a newco player? Or if they go to newco, can Everton negotiate a hefty discount?
__________________________________________________________________________
Anything owed would go to the oldco/administrators/BDO/ Newco won’t be receiving a penny from that deal.
Hope for the future over on Rangers Rumours at least
20 Feb 2013 09:42:06
Green has gone all the way to Australia to meet a handfull of supporters why? Is he meeting the correct people to move the club forward? not by looking at the questions he was asked. What school did you go to? when are we playing Linfield? have you thought of changing your name? One of the refreshing things about going to Ibrox this season has been the number of youngsters attending games, we need to leave this sectarian stuff behind. We have the chance to rid ourself of this rubbish and leave it to the other mob. We will never be accepted at the top table of world football until the sectarian nonense is finished, there is no place for it in a modern society and I don’t want the youngsters that are coming to games just now growing up thinking that it goes hand in hand with our club
(21) Agree (6)Disagree
1.) You know why a lot of youngsters are attending matches because they are free so it boosts attendances another on green keeps quiet about
(5) (8)
2.) I am the original poster and I cannot understand how people can disagree with this. Do they want the sectarian stuff to continue to be linked to our club? If they do I do not think they are the kind of supporter we need, they should travel across the water and support Linfield or maybe not come across the water and stay at home and support Linfield, whatever the answer is they should not be welcomed at Ibrox.
(9) (7)
3.) @2 great post mate! Shame it will never happen! But we can all dream can’t we!
Too many angry people out there tarnishing the beautiful game with their bile and own personal bitter agendas!
(0) (1)
smartbhoy says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:01
TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:55
0 0 Rate This
Are Everton still due any payments for Jelavic? If not then, that’s a dead duck, end of story. But if so, will the payments go to the oldco creditors as Jelavic was never a newco player? Or if they go to newco, can Everton negotiate a hefty discount?
__________________________________________________________________________
Anything owed would go to the oldco/administrators/BDO/ Newco won’t be receiving a penny from that deal.
========================================================
Not sure that’s right. I thought Newco “bought” the Everton debtor as part of the purchase of the club.
This Malcolm Murray issue would ring alarm bells if I was a Sevco fan.
This man is a true fan of the club whereas Mr Green is not. The MSM may not cover the story in great detail or ask the right questions. If it is a personnel issue fair enough (but you cannot trust ANY information coming out of that club) with good reason.
The fans of the club should be demanding answers they should be asking the questions
If not well………………..carry on Mr Green regardless.
Not sure that’s right. I thought Newco “bought” the Everton debtor as part of the purchase of the club.
________________________________________________________________________________
Is there anything that WASN’T thrown in as part of the purchase?
Aside from the debt, of course
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:12
Malcolm Murray on task and on message as far as I can see. Nothing we haven’t heard Charles say before.
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11788/8499461/Rangers-chairman-Malcolm-Murray-backing-Ally-McCoist-after-turbulent-year
Thats rules any concern over a SKY TV apperance in my books.
As a ff type suggested it may have more to do with Mr Murray pointing out to Mr Green that on his globetrotting tour he may have committed the odd technical bream of the market rules, and maybe suggesting that he should knock it off.
oh god, bream, I mean of course breach, still the whole thing is very fishy
scapaflow14 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:35
As a ff type suggested it may have more to do with Mr Murray pointing out to Mr Green that on his globetrotting tour he may have committed the odd technical bream of the market rules, and maybe suggesting that he should knock it off.
======================================================================
I don’t think Green likes being knocked off his perch.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:40
Rapid president Rudolf Edlinger told the club’s website: “We have achieved this after a long and intense but very constructive discussions with the owners of the new Rangers over the payment.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This paints an entirely different picture of TRFC from the one we routinely see here in Scotland. Was this Green? I assume it was. If so, why was he so motivated to appease Rapid when almost every word directed at Scottish football is derogatory?
As far as i can see, the SKY tv interview ? …he’s definately off the hook
Deluge of aquatic puns….
On your marks……go !!
🙂
Rapid Vienna sorted, no doubnt they will all be the bestest of buddies- so when can we expect announcement of a friendly, young players swaps and them using Murray Park?
PS end of play Wednesday fast approaching.
Brenda –
How is the strip/kit sponsorship clock doing. My guess is you might need new batteries to keep it running into next week. 🙂
Keith Jackson was first to raise this story, if I remember correctly, very early into Mr Traynor’s tenure at the Ibrox spin factory. I have no doubt JT calculated this release, and fed his eager puppy the story for a purpose……must have been first on his todo list from Green, or am I underestimating the talents of 2012’s sports journalist of the year?
It really is a soap opera down Govan way, and one things for sure it ain’t good for business.
scapaflow14 @16.36
Don’t get them started on fish jokes- please !!
This paints an entirely different picture of TRFC from the one we routinely see here in Scotland. Was this Green? I assume it was. If so, why was he so motivated to appease Rapid when almost every word directed at Scottish football is derogatory?
________________________________________________________________________________
Appeasement of an Austrian. Not sure that one panned out to well last time around. Has charles arrived back in Glagow brandishing a piece of paper?
smartie1947 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:53
scapaflow14 @16.36
Don’t get them started on fish jokes- please !!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ha! Too late the Seahorse has bolted.
Forget the clock Brenda – use this instead
http://footage.shutterstock.com/clip-1978138-stock-footage-calendar-year-d-animation.html
Lord Wobbly says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:45
1
0
Rate This
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:40
Rapid president Rudolf Edlinger told the club’s website: “We have achieved this after a long and intense but very constructive discussions with the owners of the new Rangers over the payment.”
————————————————————————————————————————–
‘new Rangers’?????? Does Herr Edlinger realise his club may now be subject to one of those famous boycotts? Such careless talk, he must be a hater with an agenda!
smartie1947 says:
time and plaice for everything it seems….
scapaflow14 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:36
5 0 Rate This
oh god, bream, I mean of course breach, still the whole thing is
very fishy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Haven’t we done the fish jokes?
Of course we cod always cast our net once again
Speaking of castanets, I expect one of our super efficient MSMers will be conducting a Spanish inquisition * to provide the details behind the Green/Murray spat…
* ie not accepting James Traynor’s script as gospel
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:40
Rapid president Rudolf Edlinger told the club’s website: “We have achieved this after a long and intense but very constructive discussions with the owners of the new Rangers over the payment.”
————————————————————————————————————————–
‘new Rangers’?????? Does Herr Edlinger realise his club may now be subject to one of those famous boycotts? Such careless talk, he must be a hater with an agenda!
According to STv this is what the Rapid said
A spokesperson for the club told STV: “We received the money from the new Rangers company yesterday (Tuesday) to our bank and the matter with them is closed.
Lord Wobbly says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:45
1
0
Rate This
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:40
Rapid president Rudolf Edlinger told the club’s website: “We have achieved this after a long and intense but very constructive discussions with the owners of the new Rangers over the payment.”
————————————————————————————————————————–
‘new Rangers’?????? Does Herr Edlinger realise his club may now be subject to one of those famous boycotts? Such careless talk, he must be a hater with an agenda!
………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Herr Edlinger was heard singing this morning…..Oh what a beautiful Marlin ,Oh what a beautiful Ray……tra lalalala…
bailemeanach says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:54
promising plaice in our time no doubt
Just a joke Grant, just a joke! 😉
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 15:40
………………………………………
One thing you can be certain of NTHM….Rapid never used the phrase..”Oldco”….that is a Scottish media term created to avoid calling them Old Club….and highlighting their non existence…
allyjambo says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 12:23
Now of course Charles can act at Chairman and CEO and take the £60k for his additional troubles, so not much cost saving there 🙂
==========================================================
I don’t have the time to check at the moment but I’m certain that the chair of a Plc cannot also be the CEO as the two roles are very distinct.
ecobhoy says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 17:47
Correct, been dealt with earlier on if you look back.
The Soul-Crushing Despair of Lowered Expectations
The longer this Rangers saga goes on the more I become convinced of three things;
The first, and there can be no doubt about this, is that football in this country is now irredeemably corrupted by corporate greed. We can forget all about our idealistic notions of sporting integrity and ‘fair play’. Football, certainly at the highest level, is no longer a sport but a business, first and foremost. A business which, as a microcosm of our society as a whole, is exclusively driven by that most infectious of diseases, the single-minded and relentless pursuit of profit.
The obscene amounts of money on offer to individual clubs who can play at the highest levels in the Champions League over the last two decades has driven this insatiable desire into a market frenzy and created an elitist oligopoly of large clubs in most of the premier leagues throughout Europe. These clubs have effectively stifled meaningful competition for smaller clubs and sucked the financial lifeblood out of the grassroots of the game. They have also exploited their excessive wealth and unwarranted power to virtually cement their places at the top table.
The custodians of the major clubs will happily utilise their clever and highly-paid lawyers and accountants, well versed in exploiting all the nuances of civil and company law, to arrogate our game’s toothless rules and regulations, while running roughshod over the sporting principles enshrined therein. By applying this unethical corporate model to a sporting institution, they have completely eradicated and concept of sportsmanship from the game. The new ‘one law’ of the game appears to be that “anything is legal as long as you can get away with it”.
This malaise has swept down from the boardroom and onto the park. Such is its malignancy that top ‘professional’ players are prepared to push the rules to their very edge (or further if the referee is not looking or simply ‘weak’) in order to gain an ‘unfair’ advantage over their competitors. Witness the Juventus defenders manhandling of Celtic players at set-pieces in their recent Champions League match. Some commentators called it gamesmanship (ironically) but to me it’s cheating, pure and simple and sets a bad example to our young footballers. Diving in the box, excessive time wasting and feigning injury is now endemic across football, at all levels.
The second thing that has become abundantly apparent is just how much the so called football authorities who are responsible for overseeing the game hold us, the fans, in contempt. These people have been exposed as utterly inept and out of their depth in the face of the sociopathic tendencies of the corporate ghouls running our clubs and can appear powerless, if not unwilling, to do anything about it. The truth is that they care little for anything we have to say either individually or collectively. These bodies exist, just like all those other companies, purely to exploit our passion for our game and our team for all that it is worth.
Which leads me to the third and, in my humble opinion, worst thing I have come to realise during this long drawn out affair. It is that we, the general public, have become so conditioned to the asymmetric and inequitable application of justice that we are now most often content to just tut, raise an eyebrow, shake our heads, shrug our shoulders or, at best, fire off a strongly worded email to some other corrupted individual in a suit in an attempt to assuage our guilt at our acceptance of this sorry state of affairs. It’s a sad indictment of what we have become as a society and an affront to what our forefathers fought and died for.
I suppose that it is far easier for us to believe our leaders are just and fair even in the face of ample evidence to the contrary, because once we acknowledge that the system under which we live is lying and corrupt, we are faced with a stark choice on what we should do about it. To take action in the face of this corruption can entail risks of harm to ourselves and our loved ones while choosing to do nothing means surrendering our individual self-image as ‘standing up for our principles’.
Unfortunately, it appears that most people do not have the courage to face that choice. The authorities know this full well and will continue to exploit our weaknesses whilst paying lip service to our genuine concerns.
If we stand back and take an objective view at what has gone on in the corridors of power at Ibrox and Hampden over the last two years, it is apparent that the vox populi has not, in fact, been heard. At first our misplaced confidence was buoyed by the MSM’s view that ‘fan pressure’ had somehow forced SPL club chairmen to vote against Sevco membership, however, we now know that their membership would have been untenable anyway under EUFA rules. Every other decision taken by the SFA, SPL and SFL, before and since, has been made without any reference to the views and wishes of the fans. Any optimism we may have had that equitable justice would be served has been dashed against the rocks of corporate interests at every step of this fiasco.
There is an old saying that “people get the leadership they deserve”. This may be true, however, I would take that further and say that “people deserve the leadership that they are prepared to accept”.
If we, the fans, continue to accept this derogatory treatment we must also acknowledge that we are the ones who are letting them ‘get away with it’. If this is the case, we need to lower our expectations that justice will be done or that things will get better otherwise we face more soul-crushing disappointment.
So, like a school bully poking you in the chest in the playground, the question is, “what are you going to do about it?”
http://theinternetbampot.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/the-soul-crushing-despair-of-lowered-expectations/
smartie1947 says:or jokes. Scottish footbal is heading for Armaggedon
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:53
2 0 Rate This
scapaflow14 @16.36
Don’t get them started on fish jokes- please !
———————————————————————————————————-
This is not the plaice for jokes. Scottish football is heading for Armageddon.
Poor decision by Dundee. The club will be relegated and no new manager will change that. Dundee were messed about by Doncaster and Regan whilst the tried to crowbar new rangers into the spl and failed.
Dundee had a division 1 squad because of TRFC, Regan and Doncaster. Livingston were relegated to division 3 a week before the season started with a division 1 squad and new owners.
as usual, poor governance of our game is putting pressure on clubs and managers. If you play in blue and are from Ibrox, the authorities will look after you, they have no interest in anyone else.
smartie1947 says:or jokes. Scottish footbal is heading for Armaggedon
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 16:53
2 0 Rate This
scapaflow14 @16.36
Don’t get them started on fish jokes- please !
———————————————————————————————————-
This is not the plaice for jokes. Scottish football is heading for Armageddon.
…………………………………………………….
Stop being shelfish and let us small fry in on the joke….
wottpi
Going by the first date CG said (4/11/13) let’s say 12noon it’ll be 2 weeks 1 day 6 hrs 🙂 or 366 hrs ……… Don’t worry batteries changed 🙂
“ask not for whom the Bellrock tolls!”
the fish jokes guys?
good cod almighty!
There is a time and a a plaice for that sort of language 🙂
Between us with our fish ‘jokes’ and Chris Graham and his cronies with their bread ‘jokes’ …
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGraham76/status/304006191254749184?p=v
…it’s like a meeting of minds at Tabgha! 😀
The latest from sevco media
“I understand that Ian Hart has been offered the position as Chairman. He is seriously considering the offer and it will be with a view to Malcolm Murray stepping down.
I also understand that there has been a fall out between MM and CG but that the extent of this is being overplayed by the media.
Ian Hart would be a popular choice among many well known investors and potential investors. He is obviously a massive supporter and has himself invested significantly in Rangers over the years.
Source is excellent. There’s many a slip twixt cup and lip but that’s the current situation. ”
Overplayed by the media?
CEO ousting the chairman = no big thing
Shirley they are the stupidest effers to have dragged their knuckles over this green earth
angus1983 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 12:30
ecobhoy says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 12:18
“I am not here to waste my time …”
“I did not say it was a waste of time …”
————————————————————
Fair enough. I wasn’t intentionally misquoting you – I would argue that “waste of my time” isn’t appreciably removed from “waste of time” in this context, being that both expressions are subjective. This level of semantics is worthy of Mr Green, and – if you want to be that pedantic – then I didn’t ask you to debate the partiality or otherwise of the SFA in the first place.
I haven’t seen a lot of debate on the issue of whether “Not Proven” may be the outcome of LNS myself.
Never mind. Let’s just forget that and move along.
——————————————————————————-
You may not have intentionally misquoted me but you did and I’m happy to accept the second apology you have now made. I will repeat that you initially asked a question and I answered correctly, in good faith.
Two apologies later, from you, I am now castigated as employing the semantics of Green and being pedantic and you state: ‘I didn’t ask you to debate the partiality or otherwise of the SFA in the first place’.
You responded to my initial reply with: ‘Neither was the charge of bringing the game into disrepute brought against Mr Green at the start of the season by the SFA’. It would certainly appear there is some kind of memory disconnect going on. However, that is not my problem.
What is more serious is your misuse of ‘context’. I made it quite clear that the context I was using was that for me it was a waste of time to discuss something which I believe had been done to death but I had no problem in other people discussing the matter if they wished to as, presumably, they would not believe it was a waste of time which is their right.
You also have, I assume innocently, wrongly represented the subject I was referring to as the ‘Not Proven’ issue. I made it quite clear that the issue I referred to was: ‘The cowardice and partiality diplayed by the SFA in interpreting their own rule book’.
You appear to think I have been subjective and I would agree that, along with most posts on most blogs, that is the case but if you wish the accolade of ‘objectivity’ then you must try much harder to get imple facts correct.
I can assure you however that I will move on and not make the mistake of responding to any future posts or questions from yourself as IMO that would be a waste of my time as it would appear that my correct answer did not suit your agenda whatever that may be.
Whatever.
“Frankie@GersnetOnline
A few people talking about Ian Hart becoming RFC chairman. Will tick many of the fans’ boxes but position more symbolic than anything else.
”
For pities sake, the Chairman’s role is anything but symbolic. I am sure Mr Green would be delighted to have Mr Hart as chairman, I’m also sure that Mr Hart has accompanied Mr Green on some of his UK stand up tour dates.
Not sure if I’m on topic here….y’know with the fish jokes and all!
I’ve said before that it makes no sense why investors would put £22m in Rangers(aside from fans) however I just don’t see how he could be misleading the support over this one? I know I’m talking about the king of porkies here however here’s my reasoning:
He’s just paid Rapid about £650,000, that was surely a payment he would have put off if they were in trouble?
If he’s lying about this he’s absolutely finished , it’s one thing claiming they’ve 500 milion fans worldwide or that he’s Orange strip deal is nearly there but even leggo couldn’t defend him if this was true…..and we will find out one way or the other soon.
Re the MM ,CG tiff
IMO sevco and their propaganda peepil can play it down all they like ,I take a different view .
So soon after the conception of the new club and not long after a threat of a WUO and the share takings being declared ,I think there could very well be a problem behind the scenes and I find it laughable that the follow followers think it’s MSM mischief making .
Let’s face it why after all we have witnessed would the MSM be blowing it out of proportion when they have played every piece of previous bad news down or even ignored it ?.
IMO the wheels are beginning to wobble slightly and some of the passengers are beginning to question the leaders driving skills .
Time will tell
Tick ,tock ,tick ,tock
On Dundee.
As far as I am concerned they should not have been in the SPL this year. To all intents and purposes Rangers died in the course of the season. That means there should have been no relegation and all clubs should have stayed in the league, the SFL1 winners should have come up to make up the 12.
In addition Dundee paid 6p in the £ to clear the debt in their most recent CVA. Their creditors got around 6p in the £ and they got to lose the other 94 % of their debt and move on.
They spent too much money, got into debt they could not service, shafted their creditors including all of us, and suddenly became debt free.
The total debt was over £2m, with HMRC (you and me) being owed about £400,000. HMRC voted against the CVA but could not block it because they did not have a high enough proportion of the debt.
This was not years ago btw it was 2011. It’s not the only time either, they were in administration a few years before that, about 2004 or so. So they got through the administration process only to start running up unserviceable debts again.
They are just another example of what is wrong in Scottish football, financially speaking. Clubs spending money they don’t have and can’t afford in order to achieve an unrealistic position within a league.
I have no sympathy for them.
dentarthurdent42 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 20:25
I’m afraid I don’t agree.
Say what you like about Dundee but they used the current law to come out of Administration by achieving a CVA. Personally I don’t agree with it either but that is the law of the land.
I would not have liked it either if RFC had achieved a CVA but again their fans will tell you they did as they cannot comprehend the difference between Administration, a failed CVA, and Liquidation.
To the business of football I also don’t agree that they should not be in the SPL for football reasons. The non-relegation issue would only have occurred if RFC had gone into Liquidation during the season. That is why the SFA/SPL and Duff and Duffer colluded to ensure they completed the season. To me that is the real scandal here.
In some respects I actually feel sorry for Dundee. They sold season tickets thinking they would be in the First Division only to be told two weeks before the season started that they would be in the SPL. That was ultimately only confirmed two days before the season began. For this reason alone Regan and Ogilvie should be gone.
Perhaps the time has come to get radical and bring in a rule that says any club entering Administration cannot be promoted until the exit Admin and that also Admin can only be allowed for six months. At the end of this period it will be assumed that they have tendered their resignation from the SPL or SFL and SFA if they have not exited Administration.
I have not posted for some considerable time, as bored of all the tainted titles talk. I think all most level headed fans are looking for here is acknowledgment that they cheated by spending money on players they would not otherwise have reasonably been able to afford and hiding their true contract from the authorities. I feel that stripping of titles would be the permanent stain on their inherited history that could be brought up any time they spout their WATP arrogance.
To my main point. I have done some digging on Companies House, and cannot see anywhere that there is a standard security over Ibrox, the only one i could find was one for Murray park, but that seems to be to the Sport council. I think that what has happened here is that there has been so many companies set up that it is almost impossible to tell who owns what and which company is in charge, which is probably what they want, In terms of accounts, TRFC and RIFC both seem to have extend their year end to May 2014, which means we are unlikely to see audited accounts until Dec 2014, as that is the deadline for a PLC to lodge accounts, ie 7 months after the period end. Plenty of time to ensure the exit strategy can be achieved and for him to be long gone before it can be unpicked.
It is also the case that the Code of corporate governance suggests that a chief executive who has too much power is likely to lead the company to disaster, many instance of this in the past RBS for one, so by wanting to get rid of the chairman, Chalres Green is no doubt trying to get unfettered power to do as he likes without intrusion from anyone who understands his end game. I am surprised that the share price has not been affected since this announcement.
With regard a “not proven” decision.
Unless the SPL have an agreed system where they must choose between a limited number of “verdicts” then I would imagine the panel can rule pretty much however they want. As they are operating within the Scottish jurisdiction I can see no reason why they could not use that.
However my view of not proven is that it is really more for an accusatorial system, where it is up to someone to prove a case against someone else. In this instance the SPL gathered evidence against a load of clubs and found a prima facie case against one. The panel was then asked to look into the situation, consider all of the evidence and give a ruling. Not really an acccusatorial process and more one which is able to give a ruling in a variety of ways other than just Yes / No / They didn’t prove it.
As an aside the Scottish legal system is subject to some fundamental reviews just now, post Lord Carloway’s review and things like the absolute need for corroboration, and the “not proven” verdict may be on their way out anyway.
dentarthurdent42 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 20:25
They got hammered for that, was it 25 points? I disagree with the sfl 1 club comming up though. I think Dunfermline should have stayed. When Falkirk got kocked back for not having a fit stadium (remember that all you hampden going Celtic fans when you start complaining about bias…bring on the TD’s! ) the club finishing bottom stayed up. I’m surprised Dunfermline didn’t make more of that…probably didn’t have time or money mind.
@Devi1sAdv0cate: How come the Z****** lodged 4 seperate SH01 docs today alloting 147.1M shares. Yet, the prospectus doesnt have a total anywhere near this?? 147.1M shares. Yet, the prospectus doesnt have a total anywhere near this?
——–
Anyone verify this?
dixonbainbridge71 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 20:54
I maybe wrong here but I don’t think stadium criteria came into being until round about 2000.
I’m surprised also, as you said, that Dunfermline haven’t made more of it either but then again I’m surprised that Dundee didn’t make more of it due to the timescale. I’m surprised Brechin, who seem to have played a cup tie against a team of unregistered players, have not made more of it. I’m surprised the SFA, ensuring good governance, have not made more of it. I’m surprised that the SPL have managed to drag out an investigation for almost a year into possible wrongful registration.
Really I’m just surprised all round!
chipsandblog says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 21:01
1 0 Rate This
Celtic fan <——dixonbainbridge71 who cares!
=====
This Celtic fan does. I thought at the time that Falkirk were shabbily treated. I didn't like it then, and I still don't like it now. To me, it just shows how severely the SFA and SPL apply their rules to the likes of Falkirk, or Spartans, or Annan, compared to the red carpet treatment dished out to the team from Ibrox.
Let's see how the LNS verdict and aftermath go. I expect that any little difficulties will be smartly brushed under that very same red carpet. Maybe the authorities will prove me wrong- but I doubt it.
Lord Wobbly says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 18:48
6 0 Rate This
Between us with our fish ‘jokes’ and Chris Graham and his cronies with their bread ‘jokes’ …
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisGraham76/status/304006191254749184?p=v
…it’s like a meeting of minds at Tabgha!
—————
Funny that, they’ve never struck me as the type of people who are too fond of the Flour of Scotland 😀
Now old and grumpy, i think what is more important is who has allotted those shares and have they been fully paid, as it is quite conceivable that these have not been paid for, and are sitting as money owed to the company.
justshatered says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 20:46
In some respects I actually feel sorry for Dundee. They sold season tickets thinking they would be in the First Division only to be told two weeks before the season started that they would be in the SPL.
===========================
I believe you are missing the bit where they applied for entry to the SPL a bit earlier than that, if I remember correctly that was reported on the RTC blog by at least one commenter.
So I don’t think they were “…told two weeks before the season started that they would be in the SPL.” I believe it is what they asked for. Presumably in the hope there would be an extra space and they would be “Club 12”.
In any case, can they be “told” they will be in the SPL when they didn’t actually qualify for it. I don’t know the answer to that but I would be surprised if it was forced upon them.
I don’t feel sorry for them. they sought an advantage over their opponents and spent money they didn’t have to get that advantage. They then shafted their creditors paying little more than nothing and in the process becoming debt free.
From the Dundee FC Official Website
http://www.dundeefc.co.uk/news_detail.asp?newsid=2410
LAST MINUTE
We asked Scot about the last minute application for a place in the SPL which was submitted with less than an hour to spare “It was last minute, what happened that particular week was that the Rangers situation was becoming bleaker, sadly for them, and we knew that if we were going to apply that it had to be in by the 31st of March” he said “It was expensive and there was a huge amount of work to be done to do that. We had a dilemma on that as we were around 12 points behind County, who also had about four games in hand at that stage, so it looked highly unlikely and the wording of the application was that it was to be a candidate club, which meant the team that would be champions.
“I tried every day that week to speak to someone at the SPL and I couldn’t get a definitive answer, I asked what are the guidelines, what happens if the doomsday scenario happens for Rangers.”
“I asked if I don’t put this application in then will I have an opportunity to apply further down the line and the last line we got which was on the morning of the 31st was that there are no guidelines, it’s up to you whether you put it in.
“In fairness to the SPL there weren’t any guidelines, they weren’t stonewalling me, it was an extremely complex situation which nobody had encountered in relation to that candidate application. Jim Thomson and myself were running around on the 31st getting one last piece of information which had to be slotted in, the document is about the size of the bible.
“Once completed, we knew we had to get it to Hampden for 5pm and Barry (Smith) said Graham Bayne could take it, we told him ‘This is absolutely crucial, don’t go for lunch, don’t leave it in the car and forget it – because if it’s not in by five o’clock that’s it’ – he got it in between four and five and let us know it was there.
“It was probably one of the most valuable things a player could ever do for us in hindsight, because it turned out later that we were told only the clubs who fully complied by the 31st of March were valid candidates so Falkirk, Ross County and Dunfermline as well as us were the only clubs who could have been entertained for that 12th share.”
when Rangers were liquidated the club died. The Pantomime that followed is down to our two novices Regan and Doncaster, out of the depth and unclear about dEBT.
blackadder2 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 20:49
Securities over Ibrox and Murray Park
———————————————————-
The security over Murray Park relates to the SSC as you state. As to a security over Ibrox Stadium I have never seen one recorded on any current ‘Rangers’ company. I haven’t checked the title deeds but have seen various other individuals, who claim to have done so, post that there isn’t one although these weren’t recent posts.
Obviously securities are usually registered to show the existance of a mortgage/debt/charge or whatever.
It may well be that none of these exist with regard to Ibrox. As to the possibility that a security exists which hasn’t been registered against the title deeds, for whatever reason, I’m afraid I don’t know whether that is a possibility or not.
Another award for Mark Daly
RTS @RTS_media
#RTSTVJ BBC Scotland Investigates: Rangers – The Men Who Sold The Jerseys wins Nations & Regions CA & News Event @BBCScotlandNews
dentarthurdent42 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 21:24
Again I don’t agree.
I also remember that being reported on the RTC website but I think at the time that it was also pointed out that all teams currently in the SPL have to submit paperwork as to where they would be playing the following seasons games and that they had no outstanding tax issues. I think the date was 31/03 of any year. Now at this point RFC were in Administration with no outcome guaranteed so Dundee along with the run away leaders applied for an SPL place stating where they would play their home games if promoted.
The fact that Ross County were about ten points clear at that time gave them reason enough to apply but I would assume that if there were three or four clubs tied at the top of the First Division, with the winner unclear, that they would all apply.
The fact was that due to uncertain circumstances with RFC Dundee did apply with no certainty that they would be successful. Ultimately they applied but as RFC’s transfer of SPL share was only rejected a few weeks before the season began then there was no place until that point.
That is the way I read things but I might very well be wrong however it could very well be that Dundee were ‘tipped the wink’ to apply for a possible spare place in the SPL and that might be another thread of this tale to follow.
So to cut a long story short yes they did apply for a place in the SPL but confirmation of an actual space being available did not come until two weeks before the season began so I would assume that they planned for the worse case scenario of the First Division. Well that is certainly what their Chairman claimed when interviewed that day.
justshatered says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 21:15
Just wiki’d, yes was 98 for the rule change. Just remember thinking at the time “didn’t Celtic just do that”?
I don’t really think there’s an emotional bias towards Rangers as such. I think the SFA etc have just been reacting to events…..badly in hindsight. Pretty simple in my mind, one of the 2 big draws in scottish football was about to disappear, they had to react. What I would say is put yourself in their shoes, what do you do…..forget all the sporting integrity stuff and what team you suppport, you’re faced with this, what do you do? I wouldn’t want their job, even with the salary.
justshatered says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 21:55
I posted a link to their official website on the subject.
It doesn’t seem to me they were forced into the SPL against their wishes, quite the reverse.
See my last for an extract of the relevant part and a link to it.
dixonbainbridge71 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 21:55
I agree it is a tuff job but as the saying goes ‘it’s tuff at the top’ otherwise we could all pick up £100K a year sitting on our rear ends telling ourselves how good a job we’re doing.
I do agree they have been reacting to events but all the way along the line they have never looked at the worst case scenario and thought what they would do. They have twisted and turned like a twisty turny thing.
They might have thought of something completely out of the bag like contacting UEFA and the English FA and saying that one of the big two were about to go out of business and, to keep a competitive league they will need to jetison the other one to a bigger league. That is just me thinking but then they could have began to grow Scottish football from the ground up.
However all we got was threats of Sky walking away, financial disaster, and armageddon.
At the end of the day ‘Great Administrators’ are made in bad times not at a club storing a possible financial crisis. The sad thing is our ‘Great Administrator’ managed to do it at two clubs. That speaks volumes for the callibre of people ruining, sorry running, our sport.
dentarthurdent42 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 22:02
I may be wrong but I don’t think I ever wrote they were forced into the SPL. I said they were told two weeks before the season began that they would be given the place.
I think the rules are clear that if a team suffers Liquidation during the season then there is no relegation. The season had finnished therefore Dunfermline had no come back under the rules. Now I know the rules were ridden rough shod over the summer and I guess the SPL/SFL/SFA need to be asked why they decided to follow some rules and not others but I’m only going on the rules that I’ve read.
The point I was trying to make is that, despite applying, they did not know they were getting in so they could only prepare for life in the First Division. Otherwise if they had started paying SPL wages but ended up in the First Division and then went belly up again just think of the uproar that would have caused.
And of course Dundee could not be forced to play in the SPL. You cannot force anyone to do anything. I mean ‘The Rangers’ will never play in the SPL according to their Chief Executive.
justshatered says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 22:19
I may be wrong but I don’t think I ever wrote they were forced into the SPL. I said they were told two weeks before the season began that they would be given the place.
========================================
No you didn’t, you said they were “…told two weeks before the season started that they would be in the SPL.”
Told they would be playing in the SPL, and confirming they had been given the place they themselves asked for are not the same things.
Like I said right at the start of this, they are in the SPL because they wanted to be, they did not have to take the place, even after they applied, if they thought they were not capable of it.
Again, from their own website.
=============================
HOW WILL WE DO IN THE SPL
“We’re quietly confident that we’ll do well in the SPL, if you look at the games we’ve played previously against top division clubs we’ve generally done OK, if we make the right signings and the boys adapt the way the manager thinks they’ll will.
“Jinky’s back (Ray Farningham) that will help, he’s got great experience. Right now and as we stand, it would be a stretch to do well in the SPL purely because of the size of the squad, but if we do the right things and act wisely we’ll be OK. I guarantee one thing we’re not going up targeting just eleventh place. Even prior to getting the news Barry and I had talked about if we go up, did we think we could compete with a lot of teams in the Premier League and we were not pessimistic about it. So if we make the right decisions in the coming weeks and months, I don’t see why we can’t have a exciting season.”
===================================
Like spending money they didn’t have, and going into administration (twice) they did this because they chose to, and they thought they would benefit from it.
You have sympathy for them, fair enough your choice. I don’t I have more sympathy for the people who lost around £2m the last time they went into administration through overspending.
ecobhoy says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 21:35
The Land Registry shows no fixed (or floating charges) over Ibrox. The staff there would have examined the title deeds and disclosed any outstanding security.
dentarthurdent42 says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 22:29
They applied. They got in. They weren’t forced.
They did not spend the money to go into administration for the third time.
Perhaps the SPL should have just played with eleven teams.
Perhaps the teams who finished third, fourth, and fifth in the First Division, but that had never been in Administration, should have applied and one of them got in.
Ultimately though, due to the season being over, there was no place for Dunfermline in the SPL due to the exisitng rules.
I think we will have to agree to disagree both on Dundee and Dunfermline although I have sympathy for both clubs.
As for the club website. Have you ever read a club website that said they were going to get stuffed week in week out prior to a ball being kicked. That would have had the season tickets flying off the shelves.
Anyway off to bed now its been great debating with you.
That is what this site is really good for hearing someone elses points of view even if you don’t agree with them.
Now only if our sports administrators would listen to us.
If you wish to reply I’ll get back to you tommorrow.
Nighty ho.
371 c’mon Charlie we can’t stand the suspense 🙂 who could it be??? Niteynite all
The man with the wee white bricks will be frothing at the mouth tomorrow, Mark Daly and Alex Thomson winning national awards, oh this will be hilarious
justshatered says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 22:47
More than happy to agree to disagree, I think we just see things from a different perspective.
I think I am a bit jaded with the whole idea of being able to go into administration, pay 6% of your debts and bump your creditors for the other 94%, walking away “debt free”. In Dundee’s case paying HMRC something like £24,000 of the £400,000 they owed us all.
That was just in 2011, and in 2012 they were given a place in the SPL. Surely if nothing else there has to be an issue with the social taxes they failed to pay.
For it to be a club who had gone through administration in 2003 means they totally ignored that and just built up debt they couldn’t afford to service, again. I find that doubly galling.
To me it is just wrong and makes a mockery of any pretence at financial fair play.
ecobhoy says:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 21:35
:
Wednesday, February 20, 2013 at 20:49
Securities over Ibrox and Murray Park
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
As I understand it the security registration at CH is made by the Co owning the asset It is also registered by the Co who is owed the fc
RFC were registered as having 3 securities charges over their assets just prior to the sale to Green
SSC fixed charge over MP
Close Leasing…. Priority first floating charge over Ibrox
RFCG(Whyte) ….Priority second floating charge over Ibrox
To avoid a charge of alienation of assets Sevco 5088 may have bought these floating charges along with the assets on the understanding in a confidential agreement with D&P that they would immediately re-assign these debts to two other named Cos
i.e.
TRFC…get the SSC debt and have to register the security
Co XYZ get the other two debts and have to register the securities at CH
If so
The current Creditors list held by BDO will no longer show RFC as owing these debts. This does not mean that the debts no longer exist .All it means is they are no longer owed by RFC
To summarise
Immediately after the asset sale to Green the debt owed to Whyte by RFC could become a debt owed by Green to Whyte which he could have cleared in exchange for RIFC shares or an agreed cash sum or an annual interest payment
For sure if the Whyte fc debt did indeed transfer to Sevco5088 it was,like the SSC security re-assigned immediately to another Spiv Co thus avoiding the necessity of Sevco 5088 registering the fc at CH and hence keeping the fc transfer secret
Anyone on the BDO Creditors List ought to be able to clarify whether or not the Close Leasing and Whyte fcs remains with RFC
Did CG and his new rangers get tranfer money for the sale of Jelavic to Everton ? I cant recall. On the basis that he did I would suggest that New Rangers would have a bit of a cheek to have taken the moneyfrom Everton and not pay Rapid what they were due. If that is the case then all this nonesense that Newco have paid the debts on Oldco is as I say nonesense. I may of course be totally wrong and await an update of the facts. I never understood why Hearts at the time they were not paid by Oldco never mind newco could not have come in and taken him back the moment Oldco went down the tubes. If I sold someone goods, say office furniture for arguments sake and you never paid for them, you then go bust and someone else takes over with the same staff sitting on my seats I’d expect you to pay that debt or return the goods. If the newco sold the furniture on I would at least expect the debt to be be paid out of your proceeds.
chipsandblog says:
Thursday, February 21, 2013 at 00:01
boredom it is then…..What’s left of Rangers has been allowed in the 3rd division but yeah it’s all just a big conspiracy.