Everything Has Changed

ByTrisidium

Everything Has Changed

The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.

It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”

The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.

The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.

But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.

David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.

The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte.  In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.

Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).

If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.

The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.

Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.

To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.

If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?

First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.

So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?

Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.

Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?

Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.

What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?

Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?

Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.

And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?

Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”

As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.

I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.

The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?

And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?

Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.

I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.

About the author

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

4,442 Comments so far

ianagainPosted on7:17 pm - Feb 23, 2013


So this latest episode will be filed under another meet the wee people visit enhancing their lives spreading our largesse etc.
Oh but a large TV corporation was there. You know one of those that is gagging to give [Charles Green] millions. And what do they go and do. Spoil the peoples fun by reporting them to the police.
Well will WATP now boycott them, vilify them(yep its already started).
Give me peace. Please.
Oh did I mention they went 1 down. Not allowed. Therefore obviously intimidation required.

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wottpiPosted on7:18 pm - Feb 23, 2013


The solution is so simple.

If Arabs can manage to sing the chorus The Cranberries Zombie for most of a game, then decent fans of all clubs when confronted by inappropriate chanting should simply chant You’re an Embarrassment by Madness to drown the ‘minority’ out.

Given the number of decent fans out their they should easily win the battle of the chants as two sets of fans decent fans would combine against the offenders.

The SFA could make it the ‘zero tolerance’ chant tomorrow.

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Lord WobblyPosted on7:19 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Credit where credit is due…

Andrew Dickson @rfc_dickson 2h
Had texts saying I’m getting slaughtered on forums & FB
pages for speaking out about the singing. Those doing that
should look at themselves

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Lord WobblyPosted on7:23 pm - Feb 23, 2013


and….

Andrew Dickson @rfc_dickson 2h
A live TV audience heard it loud and clear as did the press
corps sitting along from me. You aren’t helping anyone with
your actions

Note that it has been confirmed that the press corps heard it. Tomorrow’s papers should be interesting. Won’t they?

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Parson St. BhoyPosted on7:29 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 19:23

Note that it has been confirmed that the press corps heard it. Tomorrow’s papers should be interesting. Won’t they?
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Oh look!!! A squirrel…

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Lord WobblyPosted on7:35 pm - Feb 23, 2013


John Brown confirms to me that he’s still the Dundee FC manager and will be until May. Ray in dug-out tomorrow @Celtic stv.tv

http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php?tno=194&fid=100&act=1&mid=2113175106

Not saying it’s right or wrong. Just passing it along.

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Lord WobblyPosted on7:38 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Parson St. Bhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 19:29
3 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 19:23
Note that it has been confirmed that the press corps heard it.
Tomorrow’s papers should be interesting. Won’t they?
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Oh look!!! A squirrel…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You do realise that there will be readers who have absolutely no idea what you’re on about? 😀

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StevieBCPosted on7:58 pm - Feb 23, 2013


The spirit of Hugh McEwan lives on…? 😉

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Lord WobblyPosted on8:03 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Jim Spence @bbcjimspence 14m
John Brown has told BBC Scotland he has not resigned at Dens
Park and will be in the stand at Celtic Park tomorrow.

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liveinhopPosted on8:08 pm - Feb 23, 2013


First time this season i have watched sevco. After listening to that pure bile .I totally dread there return to the spl . CARNAGE My opinion football up here will be finished when they return . SAD

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ianagainPosted on8:16 pm - Feb 23, 2013


I live in hope: From Rangers Rumours website:

23 Feb 2013 16:40:04
Yep. We will be very welcome in England after that little bout of sectarianism. Just what the English League needs, a little bit of religious hatred. I wonder if Charles joined in the singing on this occassion? as he seems to be an expert on bigotry and schools in the 5 minutes he has spent in Scotland. We are going backwards, not forwards. SICK OF IT.

(13)

(7)

1.) When will they learn? It’s criminal and illegal. People sitting at home don’t want it streaming into their homes.

(8)

(5)

2.) It’s not Green’s fault these persons behaved as they did – it’s the persons themselves. Let’s name and shame these muppets and then maybe we can get back to talking about football. Pete

(5)

(4)

3.) Name and shame fk aw drag the dregs up tae court and give them time. the bar L mite shut them up

(2)

(2)

4.) Disgusting behaviour today from some of our so called fans.

Why they decided to sing these cringeworthy songs in the far north of England today I have no idea.

I only wish the police had arrested more than two in ordr to put others off in future.

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macbraynePosted on8:17 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Still think he will be” The Deids” next manager

Nice touch to give him a bit of limelight – just to remind them “What we could have had! ”

Impossible to find a Tuft Accountant in Glasgow to give me odds on TGLR’s replacement

BET NOW

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liveinhopPosted on8:28 pm - Feb 23, 2013


ianagain says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 20:16
0 0 i Rate This

I live in hope: From Rangers Rumours website:

23 Feb 2013 16:40:04
Yep. We will be very welcome in England after that little bout of sectarianism. Just what the English League needs, a little bit of religious hatred. I wonder if Charles joined in the singing on this occassion? as he seems to be an expert on bigotry and schools in the 5 minutes he has spent in Scotland. We are going backwards, not forwards. SICK OF IT.

(13)

(7)

1.) When will they learn? It’s criminal and illegal. People sitting at home don’t want it streaming into their homes.

(8)

(5)

2.) It’s not Green’s fault these persons behaved as they did – it’s the persons themselves. Let’s name and shame these muppets and then maybe we can get back to talking about football. Pete

(5)

(4)

3.) Name and shame fk aw drag the dregs up tae court and give them time. the bar L mite shut them up

(2)

(2)

4.) Disgusting behaviour today from some of our so called fans.

Why they decided to sing these cringeworthy songs in the far north of England today I have no idea.

I only wish the police had arrested more than two in ordr to put others off in future.

Just scunnered never thought i would say this but seriously thinking of turning my back on scottish football.

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dentarthurdent42Posted on8:33 pm - Feb 23, 2013


liveinhop says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 20:08

It is by no means certain that they will live long enough to make it to the SPL, and if they do they will presumably have to live within their means.

The £10m black hole that Craig Whyte spoke about was real, it’s one of the few true things he actually said. That is not magically going to be filled, no matter what extravagant promises their owner makes about new media and Worldwide merchandising.

If they get to the SPL they will be a much weaker team than the previous one, assuming they don’t cheat and steal. Rangers getting “back to their rightful position” is a fantasy.

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chipsandblogPosted on8:33 pm - Feb 23, 2013


If you sing sectarian songs whether anti irish or pro republican army.

1. you are not Scottish

2. You are stupid and an embarrassment to Scotland.

3. I hope your children are better educated than you.

How does it feel to be an idiot ?

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fara1968Posted on8:36 pm - Feb 23, 2013


I would have been far more impressed by Ally if he hadn’t brushed this off as an unfortunate unusual occurrence. Something along the lines of, “this kind of thing brings shame on our club. Lets not pretend this is an isolated incident from a minority of our support. This has to stop its the 21st century we are in….”

Shame on the scottish media and Scottish police. I have heard sectarian singing at every single game that I have watched on tv this season involving TRFC. Why does it take English media and police to take a stance on this bile.

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barcabhoyPosted on8:42 pm - Feb 23, 2013


slimshady61 says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 11:57

Slimshady

Rangers have been accused based on evidence that presumably meets the standard for prosecution. However they have not been found guilty ……yet

Many , including me , have labelled them guilty of cheating. If LNS finds them innocent of the charge, then I owe them an apology.

That doesn’t mean I think this will be the verdict. If the evidence is in any way similar to that produced at the FTTT, then it will be a massive surprise if they are found to be innocent.

If they are found to be guilty then they will deserve every critical word that comes their way

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dentarthurdent42Posted on8:44 pm - Feb 23, 2013


fara1968 says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 20:36

As they have got away with it the problem has got worse and worse. I can’t believe anyone is surprised by that.

If you think of the mentality of people who want to sing things like this, then not being taken to task over it is clearly going to be seen as, at the very least, a tacit acceptance. As you say it has been going on all season.

Let’s see if our authorities take any meaningful action, or if UEFA intercede in the event that they don’t.

It’s the 21st century for goodness sake, can these people really not see that their behaviour is totally unacceptable in what claims to be a civilized society.

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aramintamoobeamqcPosted on8:46 pm - Feb 23, 2013


I see Bomber remains in post, despite earlier reports. You’ve got to feel for the Dundee fans, given what they have had to put up with over the years. Am sure Jonathan Watson is rubbing his hands at the prospect, though.

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Forres Dee (@ForresDee)Posted on9:12 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Bomber Brown back at dens……. someone please help us!

But isn’t it amazing how one match played in England has the English media up in arms about the ibrox songbook. Scottish media take note of what happened, the real fans of the ibrox club are now speaking out against this sort of thing. Why couldn’t they have the cojones to do this themselves?

oh and another thing – Bomber Brown back at dens……. someone please help us!

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csihampdenPosted on9:14 pm - Feb 23, 2013


ecobhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 18:33
Re: SFA should be handling Rangers enquiry and not SPL

OK, fair enough if you think the best solution has been found on how this disciplinary process should run – we’ll just have to differ in opinion.
I get the impression you don’t want to prolong the discussion, and tbh neither do I – so I’ll just say a couple of things, which you can reply to if you want (I won’t reply after that in the spirit of ending the discussion).
I do not think I have failed to explain what appeal process Rangers can use in this inquiry had it been SFA-led – they can use the SFA appeals process, same as they did last year, when they were accused of a very serious breach by the SFA. My problem is – why was that process (SFA inquiry, SFA judgement, SFA appeal) good enough last year for a very serious breach, but not this time? Why have the SFA extricated themselves from the initial inquiry this time?
It may seem like semantics, but I have a fear attached to the problem I am seeing.
And that is – I think it is clear, that if improper registration of players has occurred and is the finding of the LNS inquiry, that under SFA rules, there have been precedents set in the past as to what that should lead to – overturned results, which in this case should lead to the stripping of honours.
But….I do not think such a precedent exists in SPL history (may be wrong here, but I don’t recall anything similar even for one game in the SPL). So I’m thinking about LNS and panel’s frame of reference – and I think, because this is an SPL-led inquiry, they may indeed find Rangers guilty, but not apply the kind of sanction and consequence that they would have to if the SFA precedents were their frame of reference. In short, I think it could be legally fudged – Rangers guilty, but as there is no SPL precedent for what consequence should occur in this situation, a different consequence and punishment applied compared to what would have to have happened had this been an SFA inquiry.
Maybe I’m being over-sensitised as to what to expect, having seen legal justification for a real live oxymoron event for the first time (survived liquidation). But I fear that when the LNS inquiry announces it’s findings and it’s consequences on Thursday, there may be a lot of people on here on Friday, lamenting the SPL terms of reference used, questioning why the SFA didn’t lead the inquiry and instigate their terms of reference by way of their precedents on other clubs, and scratching their heads at the legality of it all. And the fairness.

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NumbNutsPosted on9:16 pm - Feb 23, 2013


I am a lifelong armchair football fan.

Would I take my kids to enjoy the great family atmosphere of racial hatred and pedophilia chants? No thanks. God forbid they grew up to repeat them, or try and justify them. To think that I would have introduced them or encouraged them on that path: no thank you, not in my name.

Football is a working class game. You need a thick skin. Its not for the prissy or the easy offended.

But it takes the not-based-in-Glasgow ESPN to call it what it is and telling us what everyone else already knows: its there, its ugly, its not acceptable.

No whatabouttery reqd. It is what it is. Its indefensible.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:18 pm - Feb 23, 2013


@Chipsandblog. Anti-Irish songs are racist not sectarian. The Irish republican tradition is not sectarian.

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arabest1Posted on9:25 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Brenda says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 18:40

18

2

Rate This

arabest1

GD makes me laugh most of the time because he is an idiot with a microphone but Jim D really should have stepped in and saved him from himself today 🙂 When I said ‘hang your head in shame’ I forgot momentarily that the ‘peepil’ have no shame, no morals, no scruples, need I go on??
————————————————————–

You report for us daily, and I’m grateful for that as i never hear it, but it sound a peculiar kind of torture, and I know there such things can be curiously addictive, have you ever phoned in?

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chipsandblogPosted on9:32 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Phil i have no time for the idiots on both sides!

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BroguesRoguesAndILikeThePoguesPosted on9:48 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Why can’t the rules simply be applied to these people without all the rigmaroll? For Dog’s sake, just do it.

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BrendaPosted on9:52 pm - Feb 23, 2013


I have never called in I would lose it big time with the likes of keevins and dalziel they are very rude and talk over most callers, my personal fave was wee dawwell ( he left to live in USA) he said everything but ‘come ahead sevco haters’ acted like a wee ned, but my husband is a regular caller who is very calm, articulate and deals in facts, when the ‘panel’ are faced with a caller like him they either go to a commercial break/the news/the travel news or go into fits of giggles or have ‘technical problems’ comedy gold that’s SSB slightly better when Gerry McC in the ‘chair’ but JD too much of a yes man 🙂 ………….

441 🙂 and if there is to be announcement ‘next week’ will they still want to be associated after today? Hey that could be cg’s get out ….it’s all your own fault!!!! Stranger things have happened.

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rantinrobinPosted on9:56 pm - Feb 23, 2013


In a week where we have had Spurs fans in Lyons subjected to Nazi saluting thugs and now, in Berwick ,more of the usual bitter,vicious ,and downright unpleasant singing, I lament at the fact that the beautiful game is marred by such brutal ugliness.

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bailemeanachPosted on10:17 pm - Feb 23, 2013


As much as I derided Ray Stubbs for taking the Disney dollar, I must admit I was impressed with his candid comments at the Berwick game.

He may have unwittingly prompted a watershed moment – we can only hope.

It seems to have been a catalyst for the decent bears to finally find their voice. There have been an unusual number of them condemning today’s events. I hope they can remain vocal in the face of knuckle draggers intimidation.

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Billy BoycePosted on10:20 pm - Feb 23, 2013


StevieBC says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 19:58

The spirit of Hugh McEwan lives on…?
__________________________________________

I will go further and claim that his ghost still haunts this forum.

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ShooperbPosted on10:40 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Flocculent Apoidea says:

Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 19:11

Brown was a nightmare for Clyde. Good player in his prime, but hopeless as a manager, and not a very salubrious character either. To be honest, I was hoping it was true that he’d resigned from Dundee……. and that Jim Duffy had been appointed!

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BrendaPosted on10:44 pm - Feb 23, 2013


TU TD function gone?

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dedeideoprofundisPosted on10:49 pm - Feb 23, 2013


No

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ShooperbPosted on10:51 pm - Feb 23, 2013


bailemeanach says:

Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 22:17

It is good that they’ve found their voice. The fact that there was ‘official’ recognition of it means that it is probably easier for them to get their point across with being accused of being a ‘tim-poster’.

What’s probably more worrying is that the moderators on the more rabid forums don’t actually chide the posters on their comments being unacceptable – just that the police might be watching.

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dedeideoprofundisPosted on10:53 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Sorry, that was a reply to Brenda’s query re TU/TD.
BTW Brenda, why were you about at 3.30 this a,m?

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BrendaPosted on11:00 pm - Feb 23, 2013


dedeideoprofundis @ 22:53

Am I in trouble? 🙂 I had just come in from a rather fun night out and popped on just in case something ‘nuclear’ had occurred 🙂 (hic)

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bailemeanachPosted on11:02 pm - Feb 23, 2013


areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 22:51
1 0 i
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bailemeanach says:

Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 22:17

It is good that they’ve found their voice. The fact that there was ‘official’ recognition of it means that it is probably easier for them to get their point across with being accused of being a ‘tim-poster’.

What’s probably more worrying is that the moderators on the more rabid forums don’t actually chide the posters on their comments being unacceptable – just that the police might be watching.
_________________________________________________________________________________

They have moderators?

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readceltPosted on11:15 pm - Feb 23, 2013


One of the telling points about the status quo in Scotland has been the national news outlets (and by that I mean the wider UK) having a look at what is going on in Scotland and declaring it strange, odd and now downright unacceptable. National news organisations at large need to lift the rug and pull it away exposing the hidden dirt.

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bailemeanachPosted on11:29 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Celtic fans would never have turned into the fervent Irish without Rangers pro-British stance and vice-versa.
__________________________________________________________________________

Celtic was established by the Irish, for the impoverished Irish community in Glasgow so it didn’t “turn into fervent Irish” as a result of Rangers pro-British stance. Celtic has an Irish tradition which it celebrates and shouldn’t be ashamed to do so. Did Rangers become “pro-British” as a result of that? I’m afraid I don’t have the knowledge to answer that, but I’m sure someone can step up

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Lord WobblyPosted on11:30 pm - Feb 23, 2013


While I understand the difference between a political statement and a sectarian one, I do agree with the basic premis that neither has any place at a football match. Both clubs should do more to eradicate the political and religious bile. I abhor the overtly bigoted element of the Rangers support. I abhor the overtly political element of the Celtic support. Neither has any place in Scottish football.

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StevieBCPosted on11:36 pm - Feb 23, 2013


Well said LW.

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Lord WobblyPosted on11:52 pm - Feb 23, 2013


dentarthurdent42 says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 23:38
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And yet we have the overtly political element within the Celtic support. The foundations of Celtic are entirely laudable, but the troubles in Ireland have coloured sections of the Celtic in such a way as to overly politicise it. For some, following Celtic is a political statement in the same way as for those that follow Rangers for anti-Catholic reasons. For both its all about point scoring, while the actual football is entirely incidental.

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bailemeanachPosted on12:06 am - Feb 24, 2013


Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 23:52
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dentarthurdent42 says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 23:38
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And yet we have the overtly political element within the Celtic support. The foundations of Celtic are entirely laudable, but the troubles in Ireland have coloured sections of the Celtic in such a way as to overly politicise it. For some, following Celtic is a political statement in the same way as for those that follow Rangers for anti-Catholic reasons. For both its all about point scoring, while the actual football is entirely incidental.

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LW of course you are absolutely right. I grew up in NI during the 70’s and 80’s and when I make a rare venture back these days I see a generation who feel that thay have missed out on some heroic struggle that their parents opine about. Witness the neds taking to the streets over the flag fiasco. They feel the need to play their part in something that they don’t even comprehend. I think Glasgow may be a microcosm of this. The reality however, having grown up amongst it, is neither heroic, romantic nor civilised.

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borussiabeefburgPosted on12:08 am - Feb 24, 2013


Posters mentioning reasons clubs were formed are missing the point. Yep, Celtic, soup kitchens, Brother Walfrid, poor Irish, fair enough, but none of us were around then, and time’s moved on. The reasons clubs were established have been marginalised by every other team in the land.

Yet fans of the newest club in our leagues have decided to adopt the persona.of an ex club (and for the benefit of posters who don’t know their history, that club was certainly not a ‘Protestant Boys Club’ initially, it was a branch of a Rowing Club), thus perpetuating Scotland’s worst embarrassment, which was displayed a few miles south of the border today.

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ianjsPosted on2:15 am - Feb 24, 2013


Republicanism

A republic is a form of government in which the country is considered a “public matter” (Latin: res publica), not the private concern or property of the rulers, and where offices of state are subsequently directly or indirectly elected or appointed rather than inherited. In modern times, a common simplified definition of a republic is a government where the head of state is not a monarch. Currently, 135 of the world’s 206 sovereign states use the word “republic” as part of their official names.
res publica, the kingdom of the public

No mention of religion there!

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Big PinkPosted on2:59 am - Feb 24, 2013


Okay guys. That’s enough of this nonsense. I’m sure Phil will be happy to discuss the history of Scots/Irish relations on his own blog.

Cut it out here please. Absolutely not the place for lectures.

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carlisleceltPosted on7:01 am - Feb 24, 2013


I am pleased to say that I have no interest in Rangers and therefore never watch any of their games on tv, they are a basement Scottish team, my team are an SPL team and therefore I am spared the bile that emanates from their support. I have however seen them on the box once this year when they played an SPL team they got pumped, they had no audible support, I heard no bile and therefore all was good.

I do of course read/hear the news, the Scottish footaball authorities must do something about these vile people.

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iceman63Posted on7:23 am - Feb 24, 2013


Depressing foray into the semantics of racism viz a viz political singing. A celebration of culture through football is fine – but as a vehicle for tribal hatreds – however technically racist or otherwise – football is inappropriate.

The objection to Celtic’s “traditional ” songbook is that it celebrates the violent culture of a banned organisation ( And I know many will argue it’s a celebration of an historical struggle against oppression rather than the campaign waged in recent years but that is a semantic device which in the present culture is simply inappropriate ) rather than racism or sectarianism per se.

Anti Irish and anti Catholic sentiment and practice has been a scar on Scottish society for a long time. Hopefully, in practical terms, the days of active discrimination against the Catholic community in Scotland are at an end, and the Rangers songbook is merely the last appalling remnant of a culture of discrimination which has been left behind.

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Long Time LurkerPosted on8:01 am - Feb 24, 2013


What can we look forward to this week?

LNS outcome?

WUO presented to TRFC?

Announcement of the new kit sponsorship deal for TRFC?

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Eeramacaroonbar (@Eeramacaroonbar)Posted on8:49 am - Feb 24, 2013


I think now is the perfect time for Scottish Football to address the sectarian singing. Points deductions all round. For years we have wanted the fans,clubs,police and football authorities to sit down and decide what songs are fine and those which should be kept well away from the football. Celtic and the new Rangers are both in different leagues and this would be as good a time as any to introduce it. Both clubs and fans could get used to it before they ultimately end up in the same division playing against each other. I know the argument from Celtic fans that singing about the IRA is political and not sectarian. That BOTOB is no worse than Flower of Scotland and God Save the Queen. Sorry but any definition of sectarian I have read mentions Religion and Politics, and while there is merit in the BOTOB argument and a lot of the other songs, it is silly in the extreme to think ANY song that has the letters I R A will be accepted and it’s context understood by any football fans in Scotland. For me it is about give and take on both sides if we want this issue to be resolved. Now is the time to deal with this.

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wottpiPosted on9:19 am - Feb 24, 2013


What chance the strip/kit sponsors will be holdinig off for even longer being this coming week may not be the ideal time to make an ‘impact’ in terms of product placement!

Brenda keep that clock fully charged.

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StevieBCPosted on9:26 am - Feb 24, 2013


Like many posters here (?) I grew up playing football in all weathers, usually on unforgiving blaes and until it was too dark to see the ball. I loved the game.

Now, I just appreciate watching a quality game of football, and I appreciate those few who are truly gifted players.

But from a keen 10 year old playing for my first team – wearing my Winfield trainers (!) – until today as a 40-something football fan, my attitude is the same.

As far as the ‘beautiful game’ is concerned, I am only interested in a good game of sport – everything else is bollox.

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ShooperbPosted on9:38 am - Feb 24, 2013


Martin Hutchison (@Squire_67) says:

Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 09:25

Give the moderators a chance!
I don’t want to see the purpose of the blog sidetracked – as Big Pink said, if you want to discuss this fully, then goto Phil’s blog. He is more than happy to oblige.

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barcabhoyPosted on9:46 am - Feb 24, 2013


Copy of a Rangers side letter, from the FTTT report. Nowhere does it mention loan. It clearly lays out a contractual entitlement and an undertaking by Rangers to fund this

‘I confirm that the Board of Rangers Football Club (the Club) will recommend to the Trustees of the Murray Group Management Remuneration Trust (MGMRT) to include you as the protector of a sub-trust and to fund this sub-trust with a total of £500,000 net as follows, £125,000 in November 2001 and 2002 and £125,000 in March 2002 and 2003 or earlier at the Club’s sole discretion, subject to you being a registered player with the Club on each due date

The Club undertakes to fund the MGMRT to the extent necessary to permit the trustees of the MGMRT to carry out this recommendation “

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rougvielovesthejunglePosted on9:51 am - Feb 24, 2013


Back on track.
Thank you Barcabhoy

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dukinfisgustedPosted on9:53 am - Feb 24, 2013


Speaking to ESPN, club manager Ally McCoist said: “I didn’t know anything about it until I came in after the game.

“Our supporters have been nothing short of sensational home and away this season. If they were a little bit out of order today, I apologise.”
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“A little bit out of order” ? Sums it all up,just don’t see it do they.Or maybe just don’t want to see it.

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barcabhoyPosted on10:04 am - Feb 24, 2013


What Rangers QC told the FTTT

More controversially, what should the tax consequences be where the employee opts instead for an alternative such as a Remuneration Trust benefit? Then, Mr Thornhill submitted, the employee should be taxed not on the emolument but on the benefit. It was irrelevant, he continued, whether the Remuneration Trust benefit was contractual. He conceded that where it derived from a (footballer’s) side-letter it was contractual, but not in the cases of bonuses paid to employees of other Murray Group companies.”

Rangers therefore have already conceded that the side letters are contractual. There are multiple examples of side letters which refer to bonuses being paid through the EBT

Not sure what defence there can be to that. ……..”We lied to the FTTT, just ignore whatever we said there”

Now I’m pretty sure Charles Green could say that with a straight face, but a respected QC ???

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Palacio67Posted on10:15 am - Feb 24, 2013


Barcabhoy, keep the posts coming the morning is getting brighter as I type.
Does anyone know the time scale for the LNS report? I know Mr Green let slip the 28th (Or just after?) If so and he is right, another thing we must consider is, who told him or gave him the heads up???

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Lord WobblyPosted on10:23 am - Feb 24, 2013


A meeting (and a board) in chaos and how NOT to announce the appointment of a new manager, especially if that manager is John ‘Bomber’ Brown apparently.

Oh and a dalek…

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/4810071/Bomber-What-a-bummer.html

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jockybhoyPosted on10:25 am - Feb 24, 2013


Dukinfigusted : I am reminded of blackadders court case. Deny everything Baldrick…. Everyone else seems to have heard inappropriate songs from NewGers support but not a guy who has heard those same songsover the years and was actually standing on the sideline.
Keeping up the ovine tradition, perhaps he’s gone a bit mutton….

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angus1983Posted on10:39 am - Feb 24, 2013


Personally, I’m interested in Irish, English, Scottish, British, Roman, Mongolian, European, Mesopotamian and Visigothic history, plus a load more as well.

I’m also very interested in the history of religion, particularly early Xtian and Catholic (only because it’s almost at the root of European Xtianity), and the origins of the bible. All are the subject of large-scale duping, it has to be said. The history of Protestantism isn’t so interesting, because it’s pretty clear-cut.

I’m also interested in fitba.

When I go to Pittodrie, I take neither my history books nor my books about religion with me. That time is for fitba.

Similarly, this blog is about fitba. It’s not about religion, or national/religious history. Neither has a place here, except in the very broadest terms.

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waco (@waco61)Posted on10:43 am - Feb 24, 2013


how can we in scotland say we are ready for independence when we cant have an adult debate about whats wrong with our society ,im not saying this is the place but going into a blog hosted by another country is that really how far we have come in 300 years,
i see many debates taking place in my household about independence both for and against and those taking part are what i would term stroppy teenage students lol,
as for what went on at berwick that is not the first time and most certainly wont be the last until our governing bodies in football and dare i say it the government stand up to those who make money from sectarian and racist views, its time people like myself born and brought up in this country but with irish roots are no longer treated like second class citizens who should go home, im already home yet im made to feel an outsider and those in power are happy to see it continue for the bigot pound,

wonder if this will be my 7th post deleted

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FIFAPosted on10:50 am - Feb 24, 2013


Morning All
Catching up on the choir boys gig at Berwick yesterday,are we all missing the target here ,did our custdonians of our game in Scotland not pop there heads above the parapet at various moments over the past ,lets say 10 years as a starter,and warn clubs about the consequences they will be dealt if they dont tidy up their acts,lets think back to the start of this season we had local Grampian police filming events at an away game and followed this up with arrests and charges,well done to them,now we know its happened since then ,either that or Sky ,like I said before dub their games,but surely the people in charge of our game must also answer for their failings in dealing with this scourge or it tells us they are part of the choir,I am probably jumping the gun here as when the beaks return to their desks at Hampden on Monday they will no doubt come down hard on TRFC for this .
Oh look a Dinasaur

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barcabhoyPosted on10:55 am - Feb 24, 2013


This is from the current SPL rules.

The key phrase is ” and all other agreements providing for payment” Clearly Rangers did not provide the information to the SPL and as such those players were not eligible to play in SPL matches.

This is the rule book of 2012, as long as there is something similar for the years under investigation, and you would have to assume that if there wasn’t the SPL couldn’t have brought a charge, then it continues to look very bleak for any hopes Rangers have aof being exonerated .

D1.13 A Club must, as a condition of Registration and for a Player to be eligible to Play in Official Matches, deliver the executed originals of all Contracts of Service and amendments and/or extensions to Contracts of Service and all other agreements providing for payment, other than for reimbursement of expenses actually incurred, between that Club and Player, to the Secretary, within fourteen days of such Contract of Service or other agreement being entered into, amended and/or, as the case may be, extended.

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arabest1Posted on10:58 am - Feb 24, 2013


Billy Dodds latest from this mornings Herald……..look at the last paragraph?????????????

Sunday 24 February 2013

Barry Smith is a genuine guy who deserves better than his fate this week, but we know anything can happen up at Dundee.

There was never any animosity from either side after his appointment back in 2010 when myself and Gordon Chisholm were made redundant and the club had toppled into administration. He was gutted when we left because he knew we were hard-working and for the same reason we never had any resentment about him coming in.

We all knew Barry would get asked to take the team, and he knew that as well. He told us the way we were treated was a joke, a scandal, but sometimes an opportunity like the one he got falls into your lap. I have kept in touch with him ever since, and we had a long chat up at Pittodrie earlier in the season.

Frankly. I still don’t know why he was sacked. When the Rangers situation happened and circumstances took Dundee up into the SPL I think it was a no-win situation for him. He would probably still have been in a job right now if they were still in the first division.

From Angus Cook, Ron Dixon, Giovanni Di Stefano, the Marr brothers, to Calum Melville and Bob Brannan, some colourful characters have been through the Dens Park boardroom in the last 20 years or so. But nowadays the club has several fans on the board and I can’t help feeling that what we have now is the product of that. It is an opinionated game and this kind of decision-making is precisely what you going to get at boardroom level if you have a number of fans giving different opinions.

I said anything can happen at Dundee and yesterday’s appointment of John Brown as interim boss just goes to show that. It is a huge surprise to me, because I thought if they were going for an experienced campaigner they might go for someone with a proven SPL pedigree like Jimmy Calderwood and Gus McPherson. Brown’s time at Clyde wasn’t exactly a success, but he is a legend at Dens Park and what he will bring is a no-nonsense approach which could fire the team up for the forthcoming cup tie against city rivals United.

The message has been sent that the new man has to keep them up but for me that is just rubbish. Ahead of this weekend they were 15 points adrift so surely they know they are down anyway. But the way they will see it is that they do at least have a great chance of getting to a cup final. If Barry had stayed, the fear would be another bad result against their city rivals after two 3-0 defeats this season. So I think they have effectively changed it for one game, just to get a bit of freshness going into the derby. But is that the correct way to run the club?

Everyone wants to strive for success, but sometimes you have to be pragmatic. I’m not saying you should accept second best, but there is no point in having unrealistic expectations. There has been criticism of Barry’s signings, but personally I find it hard to take issue with anything much that he has done. Even when they got the share of SPL cash last summer they didn’t know how much money they were going to get, so they ran with what they had, then threw together a team halfway through the season.

Something else which jars with me about this week’s turn of events is that, assuming Dundee do go down and that they are back playing in the first division next season, they could hardly find a manager who had has a better record in that league than Barry Smith.

The decision to sack him brings to an end Barry’s 17-year association with the club, but of course there is no room for loyalty in football. I was a hero up in Dundee and they loved me, but when administration kicks in, nobody thinks about anything like that. If there was loyalty in football then Barry Smith would still be in a job. Realistically, there aren’t enough jobs going about for all the good people in the game, but the irony is that Barry is so much more ready for a coaching job now than he was back in 2010.

IT was all about the boardroom this week. After everything that Rangers have been through, the tensions between Charles Green and Malcolm Murray are a concern and will be an interesting watching brief over the next weeks and months.

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WTF??

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upthehoopsPosted on11:06 am - Feb 24, 2013


barcabhoy says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 10:55

This is the rule book of 2012, as long as there is something similar for the years under investigation, and you would have to assume that if there wasn’t the SPL couldn’t have brought a charge, then it continues to look very bleak for any hopes Rangers have of being exonerated .
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Hopefully I’m wrong but the establishment from day one has never shown any appetite to apply the rules. Only fan power pushed them to the 3rd division. I’m willing to bet the LNS verdict will be a mealy mouthed ‘administrative error’ themed report with little or no punishment handed down.

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beatipacificiscotiaPosted on11:16 am - Feb 24, 2013


I’ve heard that some of the Rangers fans at the Berwick Rangers game might have been “little bit out of order” and their behaviour “disappointing”. It was disgusting stuff at the Berwick Rangers game – mindless, hateful, utterly shameful.

That’s all I’m going to say about it.

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jonnyodPosted on11:24 am - Feb 24, 2013


Barcabhoy
Looking at those posts , if correct ,it seems their goose is well and truly cooked .
Although we have to remember it’s old ragers we are talking about here ,so I for one will not be preempting an adverse outcome .
IMO the world and it’s granny knows these EBTs where for wages although the fans and past custodians will never admit it publicly and defy us all to prove it and that’s to be expected .
They should not have employed the policy in the first place and by all accounts should certainly not have administered it as recklessly as they did .
If the new club wishes to repeat the DIGNITY mantra of the old (stop laughing at the back) then they should distance themselves from the past running of the regime and actually try and behave with DIGNITY ,alas I have seen very little from this new regime that would lead me to believe that will be the case ,so it will be the same old same old IMO .
Yesterday’s TV apology may not be the last one we witness ,in fact it could get a lot worse ,before it gets better (If it ever does under CGs tenure )

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paulmac2Posted on11:54 am - Feb 24, 2013


barcabhoy says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 10:55
…………………………………….

You will also find Barca that FIFA and UEFA are very explicit with regards to payments to players..

A club MUST declare all payments made by that club to that player for the playing of professional football on behalf of that club….not to do so is a breach of their regulations…which the SFA must adhere to…in order to be a member of FIFA and UEFA!

If LNS accepts these unregistered payments as an error (which is still a breach of the regulations) and not subject to punishment…then I would imagine the SFA will happily allow it to pass…FIFA and UEFA will not step in unless they receive a direct request to intervene by a member club or association.

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Long Time LurkerPosted on11:58 am - Feb 24, 2013


paulmac2 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 11:54

I would imagine that some of the European clubs who (may) believe that RFC broke the rules in terms of fielding players in European competition would make an approach to UEFA if they feel that the SFA have not acted properly in this matter.

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Lord WobblyPosted on12:11 pm - Feb 24, 2013


GIOVANNI DI STEFANO @DEVILSADVOKAT 18h
The only real solution for Dundee FC is for it to come back to
me and I put a manager in that is heavyweight and ready
willing able

He’s joking….right?

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ecobhoyPosted on12:15 pm - Feb 24, 2013


csihampden says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 21:14

But I fear that when the LNS inquiry announces it’s findings and it’s consequences on Thursday, there may be a lot of people on here on Friday, lamenting the SPL terms of reference used, questioning why the SFA didn’t lead the inquiry and instigate their terms of reference by way of their precedents on other clubs, and scratching their heads at the legality of it all. And the fairness.
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My opinion on LNS is that it might not be the ‘best’ process but I can’t think of anything better and I haven’t seen any other argument that offers a better one IMO. It is obvious we have differing views and I believe, when that happens, it is usually better to recognise and accept the impasse especially for the sake of other posters.

As to Friday morning reaction then I believe a lot of people have no interest in how the verdict is arrived at as long as Rangers are heavily punished or, for Rangers fans, their club is cleared of wrongdoing. Whatever happens there will indeed be lamentations and much picking over of entrails possibly for decades to come by at least one of the entrenched camps who believe that justice has not been done.

I personally will accept the LNS decision, either way, as long as it is explained with regard to the evidence submitted, the law applied, the effect of football rule books and precedent and that there is no hint of partiality just because Rangers are a powerful institution. I genuinely believe that LNS will not be guilty of the latter btw.

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arabest1Posted on12:16 pm - Feb 24, 2013


RE Bomber landing at Dens. If Bomber was top of the list……..who was bottom? Love to know 🙂

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upthehoopsPosted on12:16 pm - Feb 24, 2013


paulmac2 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 11:54
…………………………………….

If LNS accepts these unregistered payments as an error (which is still a breach of the regulations) and not subject to punishment…then I would imagine the SFA will happily allow it to pass
=================================================================

Is it wrong to think that the LNS verdict is a near certainty to find as you describe?

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auchinstarryPosted on12:27 pm - Feb 24, 2013


Angus1983 @10-39

Well said sir.!!

Believe it or not in the early days of what WAS the Old Firm, their supporters regularly shared trains from Glasgow to Edinburgh when one half was playing Hearts and the other Hibs. There was little or no trouble. Other commuters were not subjected to communal Sectarian singing, drinking or outbreaks of violence. So what on earth happened to change that situation?
History tells me the Press in Scotland played a Big part in the Transformation, turning Rivalry into hatred. Scottish newspapers of the day began referring to Celtic as the “Irish” team. Whilst at the same time using “Protestant” to describe Rangers. Perhaps in hindsight relations between the clubs fans would indeed have deteriorated through other factors. But the fact remains that in the beginning the Press did nothing to help the situation.
Apologies for going OT, I would much rather read Barca’s posts which are factual and informative.

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