The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
auchinstarry says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 12:27
So what on earth happened to change that situation?
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Sir John Ure Primrose.
Parson St.Bhoy @15:16
I deliberately didn’t bring individuals into the equation ……but he definitely played a part.
auchinstarry says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 15:33
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Perhaps one of the prime movers.
Harland & Wolff opening their shipyard in Govan and bringing over their employment policies in 1912 was certainly a major factor.
tomtomaswell says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 15:59
Harland & Wolff opening their shipyard in Govan and bringing over their employment policies in 1912 was certainly a major factor.
=======================================================
I’m sure H & W were only one of many companies in Scotland at that time who operated such a policy.
Regarding everyone commenting on LNS.
I have seen enough evidence with my own eyes in the FTTT to have no doubt in my mind that RFC fielded illegally registered players over an extended period of time.
It wasn’t numerous administrative errors. It was a well oiled campaign to withhold the proper paperwork from the relevant authorities and in this case from the Scottish Footballing Authorities.
Being deducted titles is only a consequence of their actions.
Punishment should be Huge fines and expulsion/suspension from all footballing activities.
I know the latter is never going to happen, so I’m going to have to content myself with the consequences.
If they don’t even face the consequences of their actions and are given as we say it ” A slap on the wrist” then I myself personally will be finished with football in Scotland.
I won’t apologise if they’re found innocent because I KNOW they’re guilty.( Maybe others on here have a different opinion and I respect their personal opinion but I shall never change mine,)
I shall never spend another penny on Scottish football, whether it’s attending a match or merchandise.
I have already cancelled Sky and use Virgin. I don’t have any Sky channels which don’t come free with my package and from next year ESPN shall be gone( It’s free on my package).
I shall use my hard earned money elsewhere.
I hate when people generalise about this ‘Scottish’ problem.
None of this happened in my native north east and other parts of Scotland.
Anyway moving on I’m looking forward to a statement from the SFA/SFL regarding yesterday’s singing but I won’t hold my breathe!
I thought the result of the FTTT was a certainty so I won’t be surprised if the LNS enquiry result is not as expected.
Surely Campbell Ogalvie would’ve resigned or been sacked if there wasn’t a glimmer of hope of getting away with it.
upthehoops says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 16:10
tomtomaswell says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 15:59
Harland & Wolff opening their shipyard in Govan and bringing over their employment policies in 1912 was certainly a major factor.
=======================================================
I’m sure H & W were only one of many companies in Scotland at that time who operated such a policy.
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Correct, but in the context of Rangers I think their locating in Govan (as opposed to Scotstoun for example) was a major factor in the direction that Rangers took. In those days few people travelled any distance to work so it follows that employees of H&W would be resident in the immediate locale. Men gaining employment with them would also move their families into the area and be more inclined to support the local team.
Closely followed a few years later (after Celtic had won their 6th consecutive title) by the call for a “team of good Protestant origin to challenge the Irish immigrants”
smartbhoy,
My feelings are exactly the same. Its obvious from the evidence that they are guilty as sin.
badgerbhoy says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 17:07
0 0 Rate This
smartbhoy,
My feelings are exactly the same. Its obvious from the evidence that they are guilty as sin.
++++++
On the basis of what has already happened, they may well be found “not guilty” on some technicality, despite the overwhelming evidence that payments were made to players, but not notified to the SFA. If so, my interest in Scottish football is over. What is left of Scottish football had better hope that Rangers’ 500 million worldwide supporters are prepared to cough up, because Scottish football will get nothing more from me, and I suspect, many others.
As regards the Scottish legal system, well my faith in that has already been well and truly destroyed by Lord Hodge and his little pantomime delay games in the interests of “Rangers” survival. So I expect nothing even approaching justice. There is no justice to be had in Scotland as things are currently organised, in my opinion.
I wonder what the Wee Red Book will publish in their edition for next sesion. TRFC = 1Tophy, or RFC many trophies?
joeraith @ 17.48
Depends whether the publishers want it to be known to the rest of us as the Wee Blue Book or to be added to TRFC’s wee black book.
Did any of today’s MSM actually condemn yesterday’s sectarian singing at Berwick or did the few who referred to it simply regurgitate Ray Stubbs remarks and TRFC’s statement which was “inappropriate” in every context.
Or did they all have selective deafness like A McC ?
got this from sevcomedia
“The Chief Constable
Strathclyde Police Headquarters
173 Pitt Street
Glasgow
G2 4JS
Dear Mr Corrigan,
I write to you in my capacity as a former shareholder of Rangers FC, the company of course fell into liquidation in 2012. During the lead up to the unfortunate set of events which led to liquidation the company had been offered for sale by the then owner, Sir David Murray. Ongoing at the time was an investigation by Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs (HMRC) into the use of Employment Benefit Trusts by the company.
During this period a web blog named the Rangers Tax Case appeared on the internet. This website made a series of frequent and consistent revelations with regard to documents pertaining to this investigation, causing the few journalists who viewed same to claim they were “sourced from within HMRC”. Furthermore in addition to the presentation of these confidential documents on the internet were a series of commentaries by the authors of that blog, which were often inaccurate and erroneous, designed to give a misrepresentation of both the integrity and standing of the company. As a consequence of this the company became almost unsaleable with confidence in it’s integrity and management seriously undermined.
I understand from press releases that Sir David Murray’ aforesaid, following the result of a first tier tax tribunal has instructed his legal representatives, Levy McRae to write to Crown Office asking for an investigation into the leaking of such confidential information.
To date, despite being an shareholder with a financial interest into such an investigation, I have not received any communication that a criminal enquiry has been launched.
I would therefore be grateful if you could confirm whether such a criminal investigation, is in fact underway.
If it is not then I would like to register a formal complaint into the leaking of confidential information with regard to a company in which I was a shareholder, and I would ask you to, in view of the gravity of the crimes associated with those leaks, in particular the possible leaking of documentary evidence by an investigative body, to cause officers at your disposal to undertake the necessary investigation.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely ”
they really will blame any and everyone else for the death of their club rather than those actually responsible
I commented before that the SPLIC might be looking at less ‘titles’ than many in the blogosphere believe.
The LNS led commission is limited, by the Notice of Commission that set up the SPLIC, to:
The chapters detailed in the Notice of Commission – 1, 2, 3, and 4 (4 relates only to not responding to SPL requests for info).
The dates sepcified in these chapters.
The charge of contravention of player payments disclosure rules for the first three chapters.
The charge of fielding ineligible players – only for chapter 3
The ‘Issues’ as defined in the Notice.
The list of ‘Specified Players’ as defined in the Notice.
Has any commenter seen the definitions that explain what these ‘Issues’ are? Has anyone seen the list of ‘Specified Players’?
LNS and the SPLIC will not necessarily be looking at evidence comprising the BBC documentary by Mark Daly, or the findings of the FTT – he is bound by the limits of looking at what is in front of him.
Barcabhoy@ 09.46.
You corroborate Mark Daly, if that was necessary. But do you not wonder why LNS has never looked for the evidence from BBC or Mark Daly? In the light of what you say, if true, a reasonable person can come to only one conclusion.
from sevco media
strawclutchery at its best
“The Chief Constable
Strathclyde Police Headquarters
173 Pitt Street
Glasgow
G2 4JS
Dear Mr Corrigan,
I write to you in my capacity as a former shareholder of Rangers FC, the company of course fell into liquidation in 2012. During the lead up to the unfortunate set of events which led to liquidation the company had been offered for sale by the then owner, Sir David Murray. Ongoing at the time was an investigation by Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs (HMRC) into the use of Employment Benefit Trusts by the company.
During this period a web blog named the Rangers Tax Case appeared on the internet. This website made a series of frequent and consistent revelations with regard to documents pertaining to this investigation, causing the few journalists who viewed same to claim they were “sourced from within HMRC”. Furthermore in addition to the presentation of these confidential documents on the internet were a series of commentaries by the authors of that blog, which were often inaccurate and erroneous, designed to give a misrepresentation of both the integrity and standing of the company. As a consequence of this the company became almost unsaleable with confidence in it’s integrity and management seriously undermined.
I understand from press releases that Sir David Murray’ aforesaid, following the result of a first tier tax tribunal has instructed his legal representatives, Levy McRae to write to Crown Office asking for an investigation into the leaking of such confidential information.
To date, despite being an shareholder with a financial interest into such an investigation, I have not received any communication that a criminal enquiry has been launched.
I would therefore be grateful if you could confirm whether such a criminal investigation, is in fact underway.
If it is not then I would like to register a formal complaint into the leaking of confidential information with regard to a company in which I was a shareholder, and I would ask you to, in view of the gravity of the crimes associated with those leaks, in particular the possible leaking of documentary evidence by an investigative body, to cause officers at your disposal to undertake the necessary investigation.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely “
Sorry dreddybhoy your to quick
i dont know why the SPL didn’t approach the BBC, maybe they had sufficient evidence from their own records and ultimately Diff and Phelps. The FTTT judgement is a matter of public record, I have posted a number of excerpts from it today. LNS , i presume, would be able to refer to that judgement , if only for an additional perspective.
Possibly one of our legal contributors would be able to state definitively whether that is likely
This coming week or 2 will define Scottish football for decades,if LNS doesnt do the right thing and the evidence is already in the public domain, then lm out permanently
Steven Gerrard chooses Celtic for his Testimonial…..says a lot for our game when The England captain decides on a Scottish team.
OK boffins…..and i’m largely looking at Auldheid and his analysis of the SFA membership/licensing process
Lets say i started a new football club today….brand new….starting at the very bottom tier of the game
How do I get an SFA membership for my new club?
2nd, this transfer of membership….i see it IS in the rules (although the “conditional” membership status isn’t)
Has there been an example of the SFA transferring a membership from one club to another?
Can anyone give any details of this if it has happened before.
Also, what exactly is an SFA membership? do they have a limited number of them and no new ones can be created and they can’t die when a club dies…instead they remain, existing, zombie like, unused and unloved until someone comes along and asks for it?
You can obviously guess where i am going here…for example, if my new club applied for membership of the SFA and asked to transfer 3rd Lanarks membership to us…could we claim their history and titles for my new club…and would the membership still be alive to transfer? Or did it die with the club? And if it did die…..why didn’t RFC’s membership die when they ceased to be a club and sold the assets to a new company?
I have no problems with the shenanigans involved in getting sevco an sfa membership…but i can’t see how they maintain they are RFC and inherit it’s history, simply enough, the are a new club using an old membership.
their reserve league title was their 1st and only trophy and whatever LNS decides, will not affect them in anyway….RFC died with 54 titles, if LNS does nothing, they will always have 54 titles
An interesting observation today that after todays league cup win Welsh based Swansea City will represent England in next years Europa League. Wonder if that might have a bearing on any other clubs cross border interests.
Just 4 points between 2nd – 8th in the SPL … Soooperb I say !
Barca,
Just some thoughts of mine…
I would guess that the SPL maybe had sufficient evidence from their own records, rather than need to seek further evidence from any other source. As I understand how the process went, it was SPL lawyers who gathered some evidence, established that there was/is at least a case to answer, and the ball was rolling.
Possibly, the SPLIC has had no further evidence than what it had at that date, and has sought no further documented evidence – but simply sought explanations from the 3 days hearings? Thats possible, I suppose…
Since the SPLIC states that it was formed at a meeting of the board dated 1 Aug 2012, then this prima facie evidence would have been captured and compiled prior to that. The FTTT judgement was mid/end Nov 2012, and so would have had to have been additional evidence to have been included in the evidence considered at the hearings. That may not have happened.
Maybe I’m being a bit cynical here.
The judgement is reportedly due out this week. All will be revealed.
My take on it is that I fully accept the fairness and impartiality and independence of the SPLIC, but am aware that its limited in what it has been instructed to look at. LNS wont produce a biased judgement – I’m sure of that. Its just that he can’t eat a differrent dinner to the dinner put before him, so I am just a bit suspicious and wary, given that the SPL have some previous.
whisperer18 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 19:49
3 0 Rate This
Just 4 points between 2nd – 8th in the SPL … Soooperb I say !
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12 90 year old men running the 100M’s in the olympic finals would be competitive….but probably not very good.
The scottish game still needs MAJOR reform before it can seriously move forward
That may well mean a few big backwards steps to begin with….but it’s badly needed.
Just on the subject of league reform….on the 12-12-18…..I am reasonably happy with the change in finance distribution for the top 24, I still think it should be more equitable, but it is a good start.
I’m actually not against the 12-12 to 8-8-8 set up (I like the idea of the middle 8 starting from 0 points, and i’d actually like to see the top and bottom 8 have a point readjustment too – for example, celtic are 18-21 points clear just now (after 28 games – not sure the gap at 22, but i’ll guess it was about 15, please feel free to correct me)
That doesn’t really give anyone else a REAL chance of pushing them for the title – so maybe a “handicap system” where by the top and bottom 8 teams simply have their points totals cut in half – would mean (for arguments sake) that Celtic were still clear at the top, but the gap would tighter.
(i haven’t really thought through the handicap system, i’m open to better suggestions)
Anyway, thats all fine for the top 24 teams….its the REST of the scottish game i worry about….
The bottom 18…..we’ll see Annan and QotS venture up to Peterhead and Brechin – probably during the winter months and more than likely due to SFL/SPL incompetence, it’ll be a midweek game as well.
Simply enough, for the lower leagues, this nonsense has to stop.
We have some pretty strong regional leagues – highland league, east of scotland league (etc) and also some cracking junior clubs – who would give most of the bottom 18 a run for their money both on the field and off it in how well they are run/supported.
the bottom 18 should actually be increased to 3 regional leagues of 12, integrating the regional and junior league set ups we currently have
there should be regular promotion into/out of these leagues
There needs to be really tight financial controls on scottish clubs – everything based on turnover with harsh penalties for breaking your budget. Squad size restrictions and a focus on young, domestic players, there needs to be a way that top SPL clubs can have “partnership” with lower league clubs – allowing youngsters to go out on loan to get 1st team experience (i’d stop short at allowing the big teams to have reserve teams in the lower leagues as it just draws support away from local community clubs)
I’d let this regional set up run for 10 years….basically, it has 10 years to work. And if it doesn’t then the next step is, imo, the only way forward for PROFESSIONAL football in scotland…and that is to move to a franchise type system
this could see the death of Dundee and Dundee Utd – merged instead into Dundee City, same for Hearts/Hibs, Killie/Ayr, St Johnstone/Stirling, Falkirk (and the whole host of wee teams about there – stenhousemuir, alloa, east stirlingshire) Motherwell/Airdire/Albion/Hamilton – and so on…..
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 20:16
the only way forward for PROFESSIONAL football in scotland…and that is to move to a franchise type system
this could see the death of Dundee and Dundee Utd – merged instead into Dundee City, same for Hearts/Hibs, Killie/Ayr, St Johnstone/Stirling, Falkirk (and the whole host of wee teams about there – stenhousemuir, alloa, east stirlingshire) Motherwell/Airdire/Albion/Hamilton – and so on…..
………………………………………………………………
If this suggestion means St Mirren need to merge with a wee diddy Sfl3 team, 7 or so miles to the east of Greenhill Road, then most Buddies would be OUT!
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 20:16
merged instead into Dundee City, same for Hearts/Hibs, Killie/Ayr, St Johnstone/Stirling, Falkirk (and the whole host of wee teams about there – stenhousemuir, alloa, east stirlingshire) Motherwell/Airdire/Albion/Hamilton – and so on…..
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It has become clear that top Scottish clubs cannot compete with clubs from the bigger leagues, a way round this would be to extend your thinking here NTHM with the best interests of Scottish football at the forefront of out thinking, of course…..Celtic and Rangers should merge. I am always told there is not a stadium in Britain big enough to hold an Old Firm game……so build one! A 130,000 capacity stadium, bears and tims all together a genuine challenge to Europes elites and good for the fabric of the game and for the fabric of our society…what do you think NTHM?
liveinhop says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 18:31
………………………………………
Unfortunatley Police HQ no longer reside at Pitt Street….so I am told..
arabest1 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 20:35
2 0 Rate This
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 20:16
merged instead into Dundee City, same for Hearts/Hibs, Killie/Ayr, St Johnstone/Stirling, Falkirk (and the whole host of wee teams about there – stenhousemuir, alloa, east stirlingshire) Motherwell/Airdire/Albion/Hamilton – and so on…..
————————————————————————————————————
It has become clear that top Scottish clubs cannot compete with clubs from the bigger leagues, a way round this would be to extend your thinking here NTHM with the best interests of Scottish football at the forefront of out thinking, of course…..Celtic and Rangers should merge. I am always told there is not a stadium in Britain big enough to hold an Old Firm game……so build one! A 130,000 capacity stadium, bears and tims all together a genuine challenge to Europes elites and good for the fabric of the game and for the fabric of our society…what do you think NTHM?
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it’s a good point, TRFC have already proven they are financially unstable despite their huge support…however, celtic are managing fine, glasgow is of a size to manage 2 big clubs, so maybe a better fit would be a well run, family club like Partick merging with 3rd division new boys TRFC. I’m sure partick would welcome the extra support/income and we could have a genuinely competitive glasgow derby to watch….maybe putting us back on the world stage
🙂
However, more seriously, i would urge everyone to largely ignore the last, sensationalist comment of my post and focus on the meat of the subject…thanks
Mergers do not work and are never the sum of their parts. Edinburgh has sustained two clubs as has Dundee for over a century, and what is required is a financial model that can continue into the future. Regional leagues a must, merged teams? a death sentence for professional football wherever it occurs.
Merged teams may sound good on paper but will never work.
Frankly the Edinburgh and Dundee city team idea is ridiculous.
Regional lower leagues are a good idea though
Leaving aside the foolishness of Not The Huddle Malcontent suggestion at 20:16 >
“merged instead into Dundee City, same for Hearts/Hibs, Killie/Ayr, St Johnstone/Stirling, Falkirk (and the whole host of wee teams about there – stenhousemuir, alloa, east stirlingshire) Motherwell/Airdire/Albion/Hamilton ”
…… can I point out that your geographical knowledge seems to be lacking?
arabest1 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 21:18
11 0 Rate This
Mergers do not work and are never the sum of their parts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Inverness Caledonian Thistle
liveinhop says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 18:31
Mr, Miss or Ms shareholder may have more joy in drafting a letter of complaint to the UK Information Commissioner – as it may be the case that if personal data was used outwith the purposes for which it was collected there may have been a breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 – most likely the first and seventh data protection principles in this instance.
Assuming that the personal data in question was the responsibility of MIH and/or RFC (as the responsible data controller) then (S)DM is likely to be answerable for any breach – as it is the data controller who is responsible for preserving the confidentiality of personal data.
While a data breach may have taken place (again the data controller and the data controller alone is responsible under the DPA for upholding all of the principles of the said Act) there is an exemption in the Act at section 32(1)(a) for the use of personal data by a third party for journalistic uses.
In that regard if MIH and/or RFC are the data controllers they are liable under the DPA for the disclosure of personal data. A third party can make (lawful) use of the personal data for the special purposes as per section 32 of the Act without any penalty where they can meet the conditions of section 32. That third party would also become a data controller regarding their use of the personal data that was made available to them.
If there were any DPA issues re the use of personal data (the Mark Daley being an obvious example) then the lawyers would not have sanctioned the publication of details of EBT beneficiaries in the “men who sold the jerseys” documentary.
The original data controllers may find themselves between a rock and a hard place. While they may be unhappy with a data breach (i.e. this being made available to a third party) they may have to submit to the UK Information Commissioner that the subsequent journalistic use was in the public interest.
If a complaint is made MIH and RFC would first have to deal with the Information Commissioner as they were the guardians of the personal data.
Who say’s that the law is an ass 🙂
‘Inside the Divide’ by Richard Wilson is the best history of the hatred and bigotry which sullies The Game in Scotland that I have read. No doubt someone has mentioned it in the past but given the debates earlier today, perhaps a reminder may help anyone interested. He looks at the game through the eyes of various people – ref., player, policeman, Casualty Dept. I thought it rather fair and balanced.
borussiabeefburg says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 21:34
4 0 Rate This
Leaving aside the foolishness of Not The Huddle Malcontent suggestion at 20:16 >
“merged instead into Dundee City, same for Hearts/Hibs, Killie/Ayr, St Johnstone/Stirling, Falkirk (and the whole host of wee teams about there – stenhousemuir, alloa, east stirlingshire) Motherwell/Airdire/Albion/Hamilton ”
…… can I point out that your geographical knowledge seems to be lacking?
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how so? yeah, the stirling/st johnstone one is a bit tenuous, but it was that or simply lump Stirling in with the “new” falkirk
and as for North Lanarkshire, yeah, maybe Clyde, Airdrie, Albion could be one club and Hamilton/Motherwell one club. but why not just lump them all in together.
anyway, i am not in favour of merging clubs in a franchise operation – hence the whole feckin preamble before hand stressing the need to reform the whole game.
arabest1 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 21:18
14 0 Rate This
Mergers do not work and are never the sum of their parts. Edinburgh has sustained two clubs as has Dundee for over a century, and what is required is a financial model that can continue into the future. Regional leagues a must, merged teams? a death sentence for professional football wherever it occurs.
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i know what you are saying, and yes, a good city rivalry is indeed to be welcomed/encouraged…..however your comments are poorly timed no?
Hearts are possibly about to go the way of Third Lanark and RFC and Dundee have just come out of admin for the SECOND time…….
Dundee and Edinburgh may well have supported 2 teams back in the days when a footballer earned about the same as your average working man, but that hasn’t been the case for the past 20 years and it’s not about to return that way in our lifetime.
Re earlier interchanges about the history of sectarianism etc in The Scottish Game – those who haven’t read it might find Richard Wilson’s book – ‘Inside the Divide’ interesting and informative. As well as looking back through the 100+ years, it examines a single ‘Old Firm Match’ – 3/1/2010, if I remember correctly. It lets the reader see the game as seen by various individuals – players, managers, spectators, police, casualty dept. Well written, balanced, easy and informative read.
Lord Wobbly says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 21:54
Inverness Caledonian Thistle
——
Ah, beat me to it!
How about Paris FC and Stade St Germain, as recently as 1970?
Also, Victoria Utd, Orion and Aberdeen back in 1903. (Speaking of 4 points between 2nd and 8th – actually 9th – I see Aberdeen are currently being magnetically drawn back towards our habitual and comfortable 9th place in the League. Any higher than that nowadays and we get vertigo.
bill1903 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 21:27
5 1 Rate This
Merged teams may sound good on paper but will never work.
Frankly the Edinburgh and Dundee city team idea is ridiculous.
Regional lower leagues are a good idea though
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Why is it a good idea for lower league clubs??? They love their club the same as the clubs in the higher up leagues.
They also might enjoy the family atmosphere ( excluding when TRFC visit).
Smaller crowds and more family friendly for their children.
I agree that we have too many professional clubs in Scotland. We just don’t have the population to have huge fan bases.
There isn’t an easy way to fix this. All clubs should just cut their cloth to suit their financial needs and run at a profit or don’t get themselves into unmanageable debt.
In this country they already charge way over the top to watch mediocre football matches. It’s been the same for decades.
I think the only way forward is for the Football Authorities with the help of the Scottish Government to set up their own subscription TV Channel. Via maybe some interest free loans from the Government to buy the necessary equipment, man power etc.
Just take a frigging risk why don’t they. The deal with Sky is derogatory. I’d be telling them to stick it.
The only good thing about Scottish football is the biggest earner isn’t TV money, but gate receipts. Unlike most European countries.
smartbhoy says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 22:34
0 0 Rate This
bill1903 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 21:27
5 1 Rate This
Merged teams may sound good on paper but will never work.
Frankly the Edinburgh and Dundee city team idea is ridiculous.
Regional lower leagues are a good idea though
____________________________________________
Apologies Bill I misread that! 🙂
schottie59 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 19:30
60 2 Rate This
Steven Gerrard chooses Celtic for his Testimonial…..says a lot for our game when The England captain decides on a Scottish team.
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It says the English or European teams don’t take testimonials seriously.
Celtic were chosen because he knows the away end will be full.
I hope a man of his wealth and earnings donates the gate receipts to charity or the game shall be a complete farce if and when it takes place.
Barca. Great posts.
The loss at the FTT is what is driving the online pessimism and cynicism. Yet the FTT result states that Rangers did not provide the SFA with details of the EBT payments. Case closed with regards the rules being broken.
What the rest of fear is that a brilliant mind will be applied to the task of finding a reasonable sounding logic for not redressing the wrong (title stripping) or punishing “the club”. It would be a mistake to underestimate what a man of Nimmo-Smith;s intellect could come up with in the name of finding a clever way out.
For all the words we write about this none of us really know what the panel will do. A clever dodge or a straight forward throw the book at them? It’s all possible.
Lord Wobbly says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 21:54
Inverness Caledonian Thistle
——
As a resident of Inverness I can tell you the reason for low crowds in a city of around 75k is the merger. The hard core fans from both teams turned their backs on that club. There is still a lt of hate towards them – my thistle supporting friends got tickets in the away end to celebrate their relegation a few years back. That hate from the merging of 2 highland league clubs will effect ICT for decades yet. Can you imagine larger clubs merging??? It’s funny it’s always mostly old firm fans that suggest merging. A fan is a fan and its irrelevant how small their club is they care just as much (if not more). So how many Celtic and rangers fans would follow a merged Glasgow club? Think about if the Inverness merger happened to you thanks to the SFA – a team playing in blue and green. Would you go? Some would which is why ICT has some fans but the hard core would never. That old firm rivalry is no more intense than the Dundee or Edinburgh clubs is to them. If you merge 2 clubs all you end up with is bitterness – a case of 1 + 1 = 1/2 natural selection through a pyramid system is the answer.
Forest Hills (@ForestHills1903) says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 23:00
2 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 21:54
Inverness Caledonian Thistle
——
As a resident of Inverness I can tell you the reason for low crowds in a city of around 75k is the merger. The hard core fans from both teams turned their backs on that club. There is still a lt of hate towards them – my thistle supporting friends got tickets in the away end to celebrate their relegation a few years back. That hate from the merging of 2 highland league clubs will effect ICT for decades yet. Can you imagine larger clubs merging??? It’s funny it’s always mostly old firm fans that suggest merging. A fan is a fan and its irrelevant how small their club is they care just as much (if not more). So how many Celtic and rangers fans would follow a merged Glasgow club? Think about if the Inverness merger happened to you thanks to the SFA – a team playing in blue and green. Would you go? Some would which is why ICT has some fans but the hard core would never. That old firm rivalry is no more intense than the Dundee or Edinburgh clubs is to them. If you merge 2 clubs all you end up with is bitterness – a case of 1 + 1 = 1/2 natural selection through a pyramid system is the answer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Believe me when I say that I fully understand the rivalry. But the fact remains that ICT has been hugely successful and much more so than either club would have been individually.
Parson St. Bhoy says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 15:16
The introduction of a workforce and management from NI in the shipyards in Govan changed things for the worst. They introduced their sectarian policies to the team they started to follow is how it was told to me.
Forest Hills (@ForestHills1903) says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 23:00
Have to agree. I certainly wouldn’t go and see some Clyde/Airdrie/Albion Rovers hybrid.
The sole purpose of other teams existence isn’t just to provide the Old Firm with opposition – there’s heart and soul behind these teams, and it’s not something that can be transferred at the drop of a hat.
schottie59 says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 19:30
73 2 Rate This
Steven Gerrard chooses Celtic for his Testimonial…..says a lot for our game when The England captain decides on a Scottish team.
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cant be true charlie said t”Rangers are playing 2 testimonials against top premiership teams
one red one blue 🙂
I agree smartbhoy. Government money is required to help Scottish football. From grass roots up. Corruption might be the first hurdle to get over (forgetting yesterdays debacle). Its going to be a long road back to get bums on seats again if LNS delivers an unpallatable response this week.
clubs need to learn to live within their means
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 23:43
Forest Hills (@ForestHills1903) says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 23:00
Have to agree. I certainly wouldn’t go and see some Clyde/Airdrie/Albion Rovers hybrid.
The sole purpose of other teams existence isn’t just to provide the Old Firm with opposition – there’s heart and soul behind these teams, and it’s not something that can be transferred at the drop of a hat.
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Correct and most of these Diddy teams actually “live within their means”. The ones who don’t or didn’t in the past and who may have learned a lesson are listed below:
Celtic
Kilmarnock
Hearts
Dundee
Motherwell
Hibs
Dunfermline
Aberdeen
St Mirren
Runners Up Utd
Rangers
Brenda, how’s the clock going?
briggsbhoy says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 23:25
7
1
Rate This
Parson St. Bhoy says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 15:16
The introduction of a workforce and management from NI in the shipyards in Govan changed things for the worst. They introduced their sectarian policies to the team they started to follow is how it was told to me.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The use of religion as a way to drive down workers wages and increase the bosses profits was the way it was told to me.
bangordub
494 🙂 almost 4 wks 🙂
Reports saying no rap from SFA for sevco song sheet, absolutely pathetic, both outfits are rancid to the core sevco and the SFA carte Blanche to do as they please totally sickening.
Brenda says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 02:32
28 0 Rate This
Reports saying no rap from SFA for sevco song sheet, absolutely pathetic, both outfits are rancid to the core sevco and the SFA carte Blanche to do as they please totally sickening.
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Source/s? Quotes?
Just as an aside, Tony Hamilton of Celtic Media is working out his notice. Going to work in the PR Department for one of the Banks ( RBOS?). The significance and relevance of this to his appearance at Berwick, I do not know 🙁
Seems to be some talk about the LNS decision being due this week.
Is there any source for this, other than Mr Green at one of his love-ins saying it was due by the 28th?
fishnish says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 08:09
————————————————–
No direct quotes but reported through the Daily Record.
From the Daily Record-
“VINCENT LUNNY will today sift through a video nasty of the offensive singing that shamed Rangers at Berwick on Saturday.
But Record Sport can reveal the SFA’s compliance officer will almost certainly be powerless to dish out any punishment.
Sectarian chanting forced ESPN to issue an on-air apology to viewers during the 3-1 win at Shielfield.
But although Lunny will now listen to the evidence before asking both clubs for their comments, it is unlikely any action being taken.
The SFA can only sanction clubs who don’t clamp down on bad behaviour or who fail to try to educate their fans.
As Rangers have been pro-active in the fight against sectarianism they will almost certainly not
be held to account for the actions of some of their fans.”
I’m not posting a link, since to do so could bring some revenue to this ugly dinosaur, thus postponing its hopefully imminent extinction. Does make you wonder why Lunny bothers watching the video. Shouldn’t he just focus his efforts on the smaller clubs? Oh, but wait, maybe he’s looking for any offences committed by those Berwick bad boys.
On the subject of singing, we should not single out Rangers just because they are an easy target just now, they should be treated like any other club whose fans do something wrong. Apply the rules as they are stated.
As it is a first offence then I believe a warning about future conduct should suffice.
Unless of course, Rangers are not a new club and just a continuation of the last one. In that case, enough warnings have been given and sanctions must follow.
neepheid says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 08:49
As Rangers have been pro-active in the fight against sectarianism they will almost certainly not
be held to account for the actions of some of their fans.”
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how does this sit with CG’s continual playing to the more basic elements of the TRFC support with his promises of Orange strips, linfield friendlies
Their manager claiming it was a one off – and not actually denouncing the behaviour
the fact it clearly isn’t a one off – lets just rewind to the Queens park game for a glorious example
sorry, there comes a time when a club, despite the efforts of it’s fans needs to start being forced to play closed door games and no away fans
(hey, thats why there was no sectarian singing at DUFC in the cup recently!)
I watched the Dundee Utd v Hibs game yesterday on ESPN.
A number of thoughts struck me about this game , in comparison to what else is available as a TV event.
Firstly , as a competitive match , it was pretty decent. We had some good team play, mostly from Hibs, some good individual play, mostly from Griffiths , as well as 4 goals and some controversy.
What struck me most though, that whilst ESPN has a nice contemporary studio, the stadium experience was like watching a game from the 70’s. The lighting was barely adequate, and the production values were very ordinary. The stadium itself , although decent by Scottish standards, gives an impression of a down at heel product .
The EPL has many many worse games than the one yesterday , however they all are made to look better because of the facilities and the production values. Scotland used to be comparable to Eastern Europe , in terms of old fashioned stadiums with bad weather and little in the way of facilities. However Poland , Ukraine and Russia now have some fantastic stadiums, and very good TV production
I am not suggesting teams merge in Scotland, however we have far too many stadiums, almost all of which are substandard. Parkhead, Easter Rd and Ibrox are the only ones which look modern and add to the TV experience. Time for a lead to be given by the SFA and make a serious attempt at providing modern stadiums and facilities.
We should be looking at a series of regional stadiums, which provide ground sharing between various teams. Celtic clearly won’t need to share with anyone , and neither will Rangers. However there should be a serious look at an Edinburgh stadium , a Dundee stadium, A North East Stadium, A Fife Stadium , A Lanarkshire Stadium and a Central Scotland stadium
The TV comparison between the SPL and main European Leagues is like watching Opportunity Knocks against the X Factor
barcabhoy says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 09:21
The TV comparison between the SPL and main European Leagues is like watching Opportunity Knocks against the X Factor
=======
Hang on a minute! Opportunity Knocks was far superior to the X Factor- just as Scottish football in the 70’s was far superior to the current product. The settings and the production standards might have been shabby, but there was a lot more talent on display back then, both football and showbiz. I’ll pass on any “product” that is comparable to the “X Factor”, thanks very much, and stick with Hughie Green and Arthur Montford!
bogsdollox says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 01:39
Dont go along with that senario, lack of employement opportunities for all drives down salaries. That said I have no doubt that individuals who did the same job for a number of reasons including religion, gender and race did and do not have parity on pay
On the subject of condemnation, there seems to be a common thread running through all the newspaper reports. Almost immediately after the Rangers statement, the Daily Mail (“Rangers condemn fans after inappropriate chanting”) and others used headlines with the word “condemn”. But nowhere in the statement or interviews with club officials is that level of rhetoric used.
I was discussing this with one of my Rangers supporting friends and he asked me, and I quote:
“what’s the bloody difference, it means the same thing”
My response:
“Yes, to the ignorant and uneducated”.
What if I got 6 numbers on the lottery on Saturday, it is a €10m jackpot. Then on Sunday morning I find out that 10m people got the right number combination, therefore giving me a wonderful €1 reward. Now that would be a great story to run on the Monday morning, what do you think the headline would be after The Daily Mail spoke with some of the winners?
“LOTTERY WINNERS CONDEMN THE NATIONAL LOTTERY ORGANISATION!”
Or would it be more along the lines of “LOTTERY WINNERS STUNNED AND GUTTED AT FREAK RESULT” or maybe even a little humour “LOTTERY WINNERS RECEIVE A POUNDing”
To condemn is an action, the making of a statement, to take a stance and make your point of view towards an act, heard and felt in the strongest terms. Disappointment is a feeling, something that pains you, certainly not something used to make people stand up and take note. These headlines are not those of the uneducated or ignorant, they are deliberate, measured and coordinated.
madbhoy24941 says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 09:08
As it is a first offence then I believe a warning about future conduct should suffice.
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1st offence indeed….maybe 1st time anyone has mentioned it, but certainly not a 1st offence…and there is the problem…is vincent lunney and the sfa had any balls they would have jumped on it at the 1st opportunity.
Once again, by doing nothing they give the behaviour approval…so we are stuck with it until TRFC go bust again
Honestly, a feckin shambles of an organisation
You could add to your modern list the Falkirk Stadium, as yet unfinished comprising of only 3 stands. The best idea that’s been put forward for finishing the stadium for the cash strapped club is a huge mirror running the length of the pitch facing the main stand – the reflection providing the missing 4th stand. Genius.
barcabhoy says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 09:21
1 0 Rate This
I watched the Dundee Utd v Hibs game yesterday on ESPN.
A number of thoughts struck me about this game , in comparison to what else is available as a TV event ….
————
There are a number of nice ‘wee’ grounds. Livi’s new ground looks ok as does Hibs’ and the new Love Street/St Mirren Park. I personally like the old charm, though NOT the run-doon look that you mention many grounds have. Just the concrete and brickwork pitch-side often looks unpainted and crumbling. A plasterer and some paint would at least make some grounds more telegenic. What we really need is to host some major tournament and thereby get some government funding for stadium revamps or new state-of-the-art construction! I think this is one reason why many of the former Eastern-bloc countries have decent stadiums today.
I like the idea of regional stadiums too. The Highlands in particular need something. And why is Murrayfield only on telly when the rugby is on? You’d think a fraction of the billions from the North Sea oil could have been invested in sporting venues. An investment in sport is also an investment in public health and well-being, long term. Of course, historic blunders are also to blame. If we’d taken the Sky deal years ago who knows where we’d be today?
if the songs are “inaprporiate” – maybe ally mccoist and the sevco board, could tell us what was inaprporiate about the singing
or does ally [and smudger] mean, they apropriate at “other times”,
i,e – when the cameras are not present ?
Contrary to reports, The Rangers did not ‘move swiftly to condemn’ the offensive singing at Berwick, they merely expressed their ‘disappointment’ with it. Neither has this club done anything proactive against sectarianism (in fact it could be argued that Mr Greens claims of bigotry against his club has done quite the opposite).
I think the Daily Record might be getting this new club mixed up with the old Rangers. Surely Mr Lunny wouldn’t make such a silly mistake.
What better admission do we have of Mr Lunny being a total waste of money than todays statement, must be a few nights out worth of savings to be had @SFA/SFL/SPL hingerson.
Bomber appointment defies all logic, I’m sure there are plenty of candidates out there with either a better CV and or ties to DFC. I’m sure it’s not appeasement to oppose the recent appointment across the street, although appealing to that side of things seems to work for some. It shirley is not based on football reasons. Whats the pies like ?
badgerbhoy says:
Sunday, February 24, 2013 at 17:07
My feelings are exactly the same. Its obvious from the evidence that they are guilty as sin.
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I think the biggest problem that none of us have the answer to is just what evidence has actually been put before LNS either in written form or from witnesses.
That is what makes it essential that LNS explains decisions with detailed reference to the evidence presented to his enquiry. It would also be helpful to know of any evidence which was rejected or thought to be outwith the terms of reference.