Everything Has Changed

ByTrisidium

Everything Has Changed

The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.

It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”

The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.

The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.

But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.

David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.

The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte.  In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.

Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).

If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.

The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.

Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.

To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.

If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?

First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.

So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?

Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.

Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?

Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.

What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?

Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?

Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.

And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?

Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”

As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.

I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.

The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?

And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?

Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.

I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.

About the author

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

4,442 Comments so far

dukinfisgustedPosted on6:38 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Don’t do Murdoch in print or tv but BT Vision does appeal.

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youtawknabootPosted on6:41 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Green’s silence …
In the eyes of the hordes..I reckon he’s been mortally wounded with his failed “it’s him or me” (MM) ultimatum..

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yakutsukiPosted on6:45 pm - Feb 25, 2013


ecobhoy says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 17:48

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I don’t know if I would trust Ally here. This is the guy who deemed it appropriate to attend the dinosaur walk in Stirling in the summer. He was also thick enough to pose for photos with band members which promptly got posted online, DOHHH!

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Carfins Finest. (@edunne58)Posted on6:47 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Once again we find ourselves discussing TRFC fans on sports chat shows and in sports columns for anything other than Sport. What we are seeing and hearing from the hordes is the culmination of months of work by C Green and A McCoist to ensure that the most vile section of humanity which attaches itself to the new Govan mob does what is required to keep them in the limelight. Make sure we all know they are still there. The latest little wheeze may however be a step too far as it would seem some of the more sensible fans are now making themselves heard. As for A McCoist not knowing what songs are acceptable and what are not, here is a little litmus test: If you would’nt sing it in front of your mother for fear of getting a crack round the ear then it is unnaceptable. Well in most cases. Here is another wee tip: Sing about your great players old and maybe not so old, Sing about famous victories,sing about the great sporting prowess and suchlike. It really isnt too hard.

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ecobhoyPosted on6:49 pm - Feb 25, 2013


jonnyod says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 17:59

echobhoy
if they need to be told the songs they sung at Berwick are NOT acceptable is there any point in talking to them at all . Just do themselves a favour and ban them for life.
=======================================================================

They ALL know that the songs are uncceptable in modern society. However an element of their support is desperate to find any vestige of an excuse that they can to keep singing them.

One of the main planks in their thinking is that if they can change the wording of some songs to meet legal requirements then they can still sing the old words and the police will be unable to prove an individual – in a crowd – guilty of any offence. They have pointed to recent cases where they claim cases have been dropped because of this.

We also have to remember that there are a helluva lot of youngsters in the current Rangers support, mainly though the cheap ST prices, and if this isn’t dealt with we will have another generation steeped in the old ways.

But as I have said before Rangers are not alone in objectionable chants/songs/behaviour and every club should be looking at its support. Some have mentioned a ‘watershed’ moment and who knows perhaps there is one. If so let’s make sure, for the sake of Scottish Football, that it is seized.

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BrendaPosted on6:51 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Sevco don’t really have that much to sing about really !! They’re less than a year old 🙂

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Carfins Finest. (@edunne58)Posted on6:58 pm - Feb 25, 2013


From my earlier post.’Sing about your great players old and maybe not so old, Sing about famous victories,sing about the great sporting prowess and suchlike. It really isnt too hard’ …you may need to make some of it up because of your short history. Never mind.

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jonnyodPosted on7:06 pm - Feb 25, 2013


ecobhoy
Agreed

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chipsandblogPosted on7:29 pm - Feb 25, 2013


If new Rangers were invited to join the vauxhall conference league or the blue square league they would not join. Its all noise and no substance.

as for Wales representing England in the Europa league. I thought Wales were part of England after being conquered.

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angus1983Posted on7:56 pm - Feb 25, 2013


ecobhoy says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 17:31

If the discussion with angus1983 degenerated it most certainly had nothing to do with my input.

Last time my spelling and grammar was attacked …
——

My goodness, sir – you really are something of an emotive revisionist.

You will recall my original question as to whether “NP” was a verdict open to LNS, to which you replied definitively “No” because he wasn’t operating under Criminal Law. On being presented with the verdict being applied to Mr Green’s case as a possible precedent, rather than engaging in any form of debate you ignored that fact entirely – before getting rather personal and reiterating your original opinion dressed as unassailable fact.

Perhaps you have a problem with being wrong? I don’t, and I don’t have a problem with anyone else being wrong – particularly when they accept hard evidence that contradicts their opinion and perhaps reconsider. Had you offered a credible reason why “Not Proven” was not possibly applicable, I’d have been interested.

Your “not Criminal Law” reason does not appear to apply – as was shown in Mr Green’s case, and other SFA disciplinaries before.

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neepheidPosted on8:00 pm - Feb 25, 2013


chipsandblog says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 19:29

as for Wales representing England in the Europa league. I thought Wales were part of England after being conquered.
=====

Many Welsh people will find that remark offensive. Wales never became “part of England”, and their determination not just to be part of England deserves a lot of respect, in my opinion.

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chipsandblogPosted on8:21 pm - Feb 25, 2013


i was just stating facts neepheid. Your point is valid in the same way many irish do not agree that northern Ireland is part of the uk.

too many of you thumbs down because you do not like what you read, whether factually correct or not.

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broadswordcallingdannybhoyPosted on8:28 pm - Feb 25, 2013


The Bluebells are Blue, Follow Follow, Penny Arcade and You’re only here to see the Rangers all good songs/chants, nothing wrong with them.

God Save the Queen? It’s not my cup of tea – but belt it out with pride if that’s your thing (maybe not the Marshal Wade verse).

What about creating a chant to rival ‘Glasgow’s Green and White?’

Are there no songs about the Gallant Pioneers?

Are there no songs about winning the Cup Winners Cup?

No modern equivalents of the Super Ally chant?

How about ‘If it wasn’t for Jackson’s radar – we’d be fine’? to the tune of she’ll be coming round the mountain? or even ‘Always look on the bright side of life’

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neepheidPosted on8:36 pm - Feb 25, 2013


chipsandblog says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 20:21
0 1 Rate This
i was just stating facts neepheid. Your point is valid in the same way many irish do not agree that northern Ireland is part of the uk.

too many of you thumbs down because you do not like what you read, whether factually correct or not.
================
It is factually correct that Wales was conquered by England. What is factually incorrect is to say that Wales became part of England.

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Bill1903Posted on8:44 pm - Feb 25, 2013


If you want to annoy a Weshman tell him his Principality is part of England.
Hence no representation in the Union flag
I do it regularly to a friend of mine and never fail to get a bite 😀

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chipsandblogPosted on8:49 pm - Feb 25, 2013


neeps got his boxers in a twist. The only point i was making is that Wales are not a good example of a country representing another country.

i stated facts neeps played his TU card, who cares, 15 TU of fame.

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csihampdenPosted on8:57 pm - Feb 25, 2013


How about a suspended sentence from LNS?
Five league titles to be removed, suspended indefinitely provided the club never has another reportable sectarian incident in its existence?

I know it’s fantasy, but could you imagine the conundrum for the more intelligently-challenged members of the unholy choir?

“If ye want to keep yer titles, ye can sing for them (nicely)………”

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timalloy67Posted on8:57 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Regarding what is appropriate to sing and composing a song book. How about asking the World Famous Thai Tims to compose some songs for them to sing.
maybe Ally/Green could give them a wee contribution to help their school funds as after all Green is fond of helping charities.

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Madbhoy24941Posted on9:04 pm - Feb 25, 2013


chipsandblog says:

Monday, February 25, 2013 at 20:21
______________________________

What are you on about? Wales are part of the United Kingdom, not part of England!

Please take your ignorance and nonsense elsewhere!

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FIFAPosted on9:07 pm - Feb 25, 2013


I cannot believe some of the stuff on here,the TRFC do not give a toss and never have about what we have had to listen to ,I have lost count of the amount of times we clearly heard the derogatry chants on TV or Radio and our hacks and pundits pulled out the 3 not very wise monkeys impersonation and now we seem to be falling for it again,McCoist is nothing but 2 faced and has no shame as for Charles well lets wait and see ,he is now between a rock and a very hard place due to his rabble rousing,how are you going to stop this juggernaut Charles ,will it all be swept under the carpet by the next game,sound turned down if a live game ,yep ,taken for mugs again.

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m8dreamerPosted on9:10 pm - Feb 25, 2013


M8 Dreamer

For the last 12months Charles Green has been in the media on a daily basis, mainly spouting complete rubbish to the supporters of TRFC.
In the last 7 days Charles Green has disappeared off the planet, after his Board of Director’s refused to sack the Chairman of TRFC and a significant element of TRFC supporters were guilty of singing “unsuitable” songs from their songbook at Berwick on saturday.
For a man who has an opinion on everything his recent silence speaks volumes.

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chipsandblogPosted on9:15 pm - Feb 25, 2013


mad

The principality was brought under English control in 1284 when the Statute of Rhuddlan was enacted, the remaining Welsh territory was administered under the Marcher Lords until the Laws in Wales acts of 1536 (and 1542) were passed making England and Wales a single legal state.

wales can play in england and represent england.

as i said stick to facts

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StevieBCPosted on9:18 pm - Feb 25, 2013


A few weeks ago Boateng playing for AC Milan in a friendly walked off the park in protest at racist chants. All the players walked off and the game was abandoned.

Apart from Blatter sticking his foot in his mouth as per usual, there was widespread support for the action taken, including Platini.

So perhaps the next time there is sectarian singing at iBrox, any suitably offended players in the opposition team could simply walk off the park in the protest ?

Hypothetical situation perhaps – but could you imagine the panic that would create at Hampden, with the blazers realising they would have to deal with this nonsense once and for all – and with the world watching !

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arabest1Posted on9:22 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Ally McCoist’s words are welcome and necessary, if Green releases an unequivocal statement that his club do not want to be ‘tarred with the sickening sectarian brush’ he will rise in my estimation, but I can’t say I’m hopeful, he has done his level best to cement that element of the support into the new regime…..still I live in hope

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Forres Dee (@ForresDee)Posted on9:27 pm - Feb 25, 2013


StevieBC says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 21:18

In scotland, the match would simply be abandoned and awarded to the team still on the pitch!

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chipsandblogPosted on9:28 pm - Feb 25, 2013


to many people want to jump on the political correctness button on hear whenever anyone states anything they disagree with as shown by neep and mad. If i was welsh i would not want anything to do with england but it does not remove the fact england conquered them and they were brought under english law.

i have no time for false outage. I have been on many Celtic websites and argued my case against the pro ra chants, I have no time for idiots or bloggers claiming they are whiter than white.

neep and mad learn your facts.

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chipsandblogPosted on9:29 pm - Feb 25, 2013


false outage,lol, false outrage.

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bangordubPosted on9:36 pm - Feb 25, 2013


A lot of comments and stories about the songbook of a certain entity here. If I may suggest, this site is about recording events and holding to account i believe.
Could we perhaps open a list or record of such events?

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Cameron OrrPosted on9:38 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Like your sentiment SBC, but the Hampden posse have been presiding over the Ipox shambles for the last year without showing any leadership, while the world and his granny have been watching. Don’t see ESPN’s laudible stance re the usual bile coming from the hoardes changing their attitude anytime soon.

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neepheidPosted on9:42 pm - Feb 25, 2013


chipsandblog says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 21:28

neep and mad learn your facts.
======
Chips, I’ve expressed an opinion based on what I believe to be the facts. Maybe I’m wrong, but I did live in Wales for a while, and liked the place and the people a lot, so maybe my views are a bit coloured by that. I’m very impressed by your knowledge of Welsh history, so let’s just leave it there. The subject isn’t very interesting to most on this forum, I guess, so sorry I stirred the pot.

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pau1mart1nPosted on9:44 pm - Feb 25, 2013


why would anyone expect any action at all ??
does anyone know how the enquiry into sectarian signing at the first ibrox game post admin is coming along ????
anyone……anyone…..

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scapaflow14Posted on9:44 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Statement from rangers Security chief on RFC site


RANGERS’ Head of Security David Martin has urged supporters to be ambassadors for the Club at all games this season and beyond.

A small but vocal section of supporters engaged in inappropriate singing during Saturday’s game at Berwick Rangers, which resulted in two arrests and caused embarrassment for Rangers.

However, it should not be forgotten that the fans have played a key role in our rise in recent months so the Club is encouraging supporters to back the team in the correct manner at all matches – starting at Forthbank tomorrow evening when Ally McCoist’s side take on Stirling Albion.

David Martin commented: “The Rangers supporters have been magnificent at Ibrox and on our travels this season and it was extremely disappointing that a small number of fans chose to engage in inappropriate singing at Berwick on Saturday.

“That said, I take great encouragement by the fact the majority of supporters were quick to condemn those who indulged in unwanted singing at the weekend and I ask all fans to act as ambassadors for Rangers when they attend our matches.

“The Club has endured a difficult 12 months but we are on the way back now.

“Rangers supporters have made great strides in recent seasons and deserve credit for their behaviour and I am hopeful they will build on that success.

“Those who engage in sectarian singing are only damaging Rangers so it is important to back the team in the correct manner and prevent the Club from attracting unwanted attention.”

The abuse this guy is getting for what is a fairly mild statement is absolutely appaling

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StevieBCPosted on9:50 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Cameron Orr says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 21:38
Like your sentiment SBC, but the Hampden posse have been presiding over the Ipox shambles for the last year without showing any leadership, while the world and his granny have been watching. Don’t see ESPN’s laudible stance re the usual bile coming from the hoardes changing their attitude anytime soon
======================================
That’s a fair point CO…but God loves a trier. 🙂
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the offensive singing was – or should have been – included in the referee’s match report? Or is that irrelevant?

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chipsandblogPosted on9:57 pm - Feb 25, 2013


neeps, fair enough. I was not trying to have a dig at the Welsh just saying that if new RFC think Wales playing in the Europa league means any country can play in any league, its far from certain in a legal sense, anyway apologies, i did not want to have a go at you, mad or the welsh.

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broadswordcallingdannybhoyPosted on10:04 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Cameron Orr says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 21:38

…but the Hampden posse have been presiding over the Ipox shambles for the last year

====================================

I think it’s been a helluva lot longer than that………

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Bill1903Posted on10:07 pm - Feb 25, 2013


A lot of angry Welsh Celtic fans on here tonight
Lets move on and forget it 😉

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broadswordcallingdannybhoyPosted on10:52 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Been posted before?

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/why-dont-you-just-go/

Caution: contains language likely to offend

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Long Time LurkerPosted on10:52 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Slightly OT

For twitter fans #SevcoOscars is worth a look.

Looks like corsica1968 has a wonderful pick of #SevcoOscars nominees – 1997-As Hood As It Gets 1998-Life is Beautiful 2004-Finding Neverland 2006-The Departed 2007-Atonement are worth a special mention.

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ecobhoyPosted on11:04 pm - Feb 25, 2013


angus1983 says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 19:56

My goodness, sir – you really are something of an emotive revisionist.
——————————————————————————————————

My grammar and spelling are hopeless – I’m pathetic and now I’m an emotive revisionist whatever that means.

But the biggest laugh of all is your use of an SFA decision to support your case – you must be the only poster on here to have any faith in anything the SFA has done or sanctioned since the whole Rangers debacle started 🙂

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paulmac2Posted on11:06 pm - Feb 25, 2013


scapaflow14 says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 21:44
……………………………………..

When the fans of the old club where called to account Martin Bain was for ever telling UEFA, this was an isolated incident…the club can’t do anymore than they are doing…

Clearly these fans who constantly embarrassed the old club and are now doing the same with the new club but with greater gusto are uncontrollable….

No matter what anyone here thinks….they will continue to behave in an unacceptable way…because the past tells us they will…and a recent conversation I was part of that involved a 30 ish SEVCO fan tells it ain’t going away…the numbers may diminish over time but the mindset is fixed within a significant number…sadly!

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broadswordcallingdannybhoyPosted on11:17 pm - Feb 25, 2013


Long Time Lurker says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 22:52
================================
Is ‘My Left Foot’ on the list? 🙂

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Long Time LurkerPosted on11:39 pm - Feb 25, 2013


broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
Monday, February 25, 2013 at 23:17

We have the modern classic the life of pie 🙂

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Cameron OrrPosted on12:11 am - Feb 26, 2013


I would have thought the Lambshank redemption might be worth a shout……

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scapaflow14Posted on12:37 am - Feb 26, 2013


The Billion Dollar Brain?

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scapaflow14Posted on12:49 am - Feb 26, 2013


Followed by that little known surfing classic “Under the Radar”?

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jonnyodPosted on6:47 am - Feb 26, 2013


“A small minority and an isolated incident ”
that’s up there with hover pitches and £700m casino’s
just another fantasy from moonbeams ‘ r ‘ us fc

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loamfeetPosted on7:16 am - Feb 26, 2013


I think we have to be very careful with our approach to offensive singing. I think we need to focus on songs that are genuinely sectarian or racist in nature and not get tangled up in the web of judging what is and is not offensive. First of all, there is a freedom of expression issue. I do not have the right not to be offended. Secondly, by demanding action on every and any offensive or distasteful chant we run the risk of diluting the message we are trying to send about what is genuinely unacceptable. Thirdly, there is already a mechanism outside of criminal law to deal with a wide range of offensive singing: the terms and conditions on the back of a ticket. Management reserves the right and all that.

I think we need a two-pronged approach: stamp down on genuine hate speech hard coordinated between the police and SFA with fines and point deductions for clubs and a separate movement to clean up the stands from clubs, again coordinated by the SFA but maybe involving community charities and education, covering a wide range of issues, with ejections and short bans from stadiums enforced by ticket terms and conditions.

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Madbhoy24941Posted on7:50 am - Feb 26, 2013


chipsandblog says:

Monday, February 25, 2013 at 21:57
——————————–

I still disagree with you. I initially saw it as a dig and even though you have clearly explained your reasons for mentioning it, because of the way it was written, that initial feeling remains.

Times have changed and now laws are being passed for both countries as separate entities although Wales still use English Law. Although some laws created hundreds of years ago still refer to “England” (meaning both England and Wales), my understanding is that laws passed in the last 50 years refer to England and Wales as 2 separate entities. I believe The Welsh Assembly can make laws without any approval from England.

You maybe know a lot more about the history and English Law than me so I will not take you on in that field, and I accept that I could “technically” be wrong but I will argue the point in a footballing sense. If Wales are part of England then why are they seen as 2 separate entities in UEFA and FIFA eyes? I know both of those organisations would love it be just one for all the home nations but at present, they are not.

I stand by my initial belief, teams from Wales cannot assume they could walk straight into the English league based on historical pacts, acts or laws without UEFA or The EFA permission.

They are a separate country within a union, to suggest anything else, well to me that is simply nonsense.

On a more lighter note, I would love to see fan reaction from a team from Wales that asked to be allowed to join the English League based on the fact they are technically English 🙂

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Carfins Finest. (@edunne58)Posted on7:58 am - Feb 26, 2013


loamfeet says:

Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 07:16

Whilst the thrust of your post is laudable the basic requirement of ‘wanting to be educated’ is, i feel, sadly lacking. You can take a horse to water etc. As far as getting the SFA involved in helping administer such teachings I fear you would be banging your head against some sturdy masonry. As I say your sentiment is a fair one.

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beatipacificiscotiaPosted on8:29 am - Feb 26, 2013


I was impressed by the sportsound podcast (I like to listen to it the next day traveling to work). Tom English and Billy Dodds didn’t pull any punches when talking about the sectarian singing at the weekend. Billy Dodds surprised me by referring to them as idiots, then said it again for good measure.

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tomtomPosted on8:53 am - Feb 26, 2013


beatipacificiscotia says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 08:29

I was impressed by the sportsound podcast (I like to listen to it the next day traveling to work). Tom English and Billy Dodds didn’t pull any punches when talking about the sectarian singing at the weekend. Billy Dodds surprised me by referring to them as idiots, then said it again for good measure.

——————————————-
Idiot’s do things primarily because they don’t know any better. The fans (and there are many of them) of Rangers who regularly sing these songs know exactly what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. They way some commentators are going on you’d think this was a strange outburst. Why has there been no condemnation of any other games where these songs are regularly heard. The faux outrage is insulting. From Chuck’s playing to the Orange pound to Ally’s Helen Keller impersonations the whole club’s current existence is down to these “fans”.

The Rangers that has emerged from liquidation is the Rangers that the “loyal” fans always wanted. Condemning their songbook is a badge of honour for them.

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jockybhoyPosted on9:18 am - Feb 26, 2013


loamfeet says: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 07:16
I agree. Good post m8.

Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 07:58
I tthink the basic premise loamfeet was suggesting was that those singing clearly racist or sectarian songs should be deprived of doing so at games – after all a 90minute bigot is still a bigot. Get them out of the stadiums game and educate them why they won’t be allowed back in until they mend their ways. If they can’t handle that requirement, ie they refuse to be educated and sing again, they’ll get flung out again and never allowed back in.

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neepheidPosted on9:19 am - Feb 26, 2013


I have to wonder what would have happened had the Berwick game not been televised live. Would the fearless journalists of the Scottish sporting press have reported the sectarian singing prominently in their newspapers? Or would it just have been ignored due to an outbreak of collective and selective deafness? And how many previous outbreaks of sectarianism in non-televised away games have simply gone unreported? The answers to those questions (and I don’t pretend to have the answers) would tell me a lot about the real state of Scotland today.

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tomtomPosted on9:27 am - Feb 26, 2013


neepheid says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 09:19

I have to wonder what would have happened had the Berwick game not been televised live. Nothing

Would the fearless journalists of the Scottish sporting press have reported the sectarian singing prominently in their newspapers? No

Or would it just have been ignored due to an outbreak of collective and selective deafness? Yes

And how many previous outbreaks of sectarianism in non-televised away games have simply gone unreported? Too many

The answers to those questions (and I don’t pretend to have the answers) would tell me a lot about the real state of Scotland today. The answer should be self explanatory

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ecobhoyPosted on9:34 am - Feb 26, 2013


http://www.rangerspedia.org/index.php/File:Wee_Blue_Book_2006-07.pdf

If a new list of songs is actually produced by Rangers it will be interesting to see how it compares to the one produced under Murray’s tenure and whether the words will have altered.

Possibly a crude barometer as to the culture climate at Ibrox although independent and anonymous ‘field’ tests will be required to see whether the experimental parameters are being followed.

Of course the Cardinal allegations has provided much needed release on the Darkside sites for those unable to separate religious attacks from playing football and there is no cry of ‘Innocent until proved Guilty’ to be heard which comes as no surprise.

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ecobhoyPosted on9:51 am - Feb 26, 2013


However nice to see the Evening Times stoking the fires for the game tonight with the headlines:

‘Little ready to right wrong as Rangers return to scene of the crime at Forthbank’

‘Rangers star Andy Little vows to handle Albion’s boot boys’

Just what the MSM are good act: Fair, balanced and objective reporting, Or is it just another waste of trees print organisation, about to hit the financial buffers, desperately clutching for the Blue £ knowing that there are no sales to be had in the Stirling area or even in Glasgow these days, it would appear.

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wottpiPosted on9:54 am - Feb 26, 2013


Right enough is enough on the singing matter.

Lets put it into perspective.

We have a club and their supporters who have taken offense and then has asked, nay demanded full and public apologies from football clubs and others on a range of matters.

The heinous crimes include:

Using the words ‘Sevco Franchise’ (Falkirk)
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/186158-falkirk-fc-stadium-announcer-suspended-after-rangers-sevco-comment/

‘Newco’ Comments in a match day programme (Montrose)
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/montrose-issue-unreserved-apology-to-rangers-1494611

Inappropriate comments on Twitter (Peterhead)
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/mobile/rangers/gers-receive-apology-113737n.20011815

A opposition manager saying they should be doing better given they are full time (Peterhead)
http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=246095

A spoof Mad Man title sequence (BBC)
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/192429-rangers-demand-clear-and-unambiguous-apology-from-bbc-for-mad-men-montage/

AND YET

We have still to see an official club apology to the good people of Berwick and the subscribers to ESPN who have to put up with vile nonesense.

All we have is weasle words from the club in that they only express their ‘dissapointment’ and only use the word ‘condem’ in relation to how other Rangers fans view of the situation.

A club whose management is quick enough to ask for clear and unambiguousapologies for the smallest of slights against their club but hugely silent on some of their fans being a blight on the Scottish game and indeed the whole nation.

Ian Archers well kent quote was issued at the time when sectarianism was perhaps worse than it is now however it appears it is still relevant today.

“This has to be said about Rangers, as a Scottish Football club they are a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace. This country would be a better place if Rangers did not exist.”

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valentinesclownPosted on9:57 am - Feb 26, 2013


It is not a MINORITY, the MSM and Sevco just peddle this approach.
It was not a minority at Hampden recently against Queens Park
It was not a minority at League Cup final a couple of years ago.
It is not a one off.

It is a Majority and it is a common event.

Admit that then deal with it.

Sevco will not condemn this
Charlie will not condemn this because it will empty Ibrox.

Money talks as the bigots sing.

By the way Charlie any news on the next orange strip?

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rantinrobinPosted on10:13 am - Feb 26, 2013


There is no place for vile ,racist,guttural chants in 21st century football or indeed in any social setting.Singing is an act of joy and celebration.This is not singing.

To end this then there must be severe sanctions placed upon any club who transgresses.The ultimate deterrent would be for the SFA to act boldly and close the doors on matches.

If the SFA were to fly the flag for principled action then that is what should happen.

Forget the product speak and move our game back into the world of dignity.To the SFA and SPL, you have messed up our game in the last 12 months ,at least do this right!

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briggsbhoyPosted on10:33 am - Feb 26, 2013


What kind of sureal World do we live in where an acceptable song sheet is issued by a Football Club for fans to sing. When some bright spark comes up with a new diddty does he have to send it into Ibrox for approval. Next thing there will be copyright issues. We all know what is offensive so it is up to the decent supporter to boo down or drown out the offensive stuff when it starts. Will that man please stand up.

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ExiledCeltPosted on10:49 am - Feb 26, 2013


The excuse that most of people here and in the media is that this kind of sectarianism (or racism to call it correctly since its an anti-immigrant stance being taken) is that its daft wee boys or uneducated people or a minorty.

Donald Findlay is neither uneducated nor a daft wee boy – or at least not now he is not a boy! – however he had to resign after being captured in full flow…..

In 1999, Donald Findlay QC was forced to resign his position as Vice Chairman of Rangers after he was captured on camera singing anti-Catholic songs. A typical feature to emerge over the years when Rangers or their fans have been caught bang to rights, is to complain about the conduct of other parties seeking justice. True to form, Findlay, a prominent figure in the legal establishment, complained in his resignation letter about the fact that evidence of his sectarian singing was brought to light: “It is disappointing that someone attending [the function] should have felt it necessary to go to the press”. This is the same Donald Findlay QC who said that the Famine Song was merely an expression of free speech: “There is nothing at all that could in any way be said to be racist or racially motivated about those words.” The Famine Song has been deemed to be racist, resulting in arrest for “racial breach of the peace” for those caught singing it.

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/rangers-now-rangers-then-rangers-forever-an-alternative-view-by-johnbhoy/comment-page-1/

Anyone thinking that a few silly wee neds being banned from Ibrokes will mean the end of this institutional disease needs to stop reading spam emails as they are obviously not the full shilling……

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wottpiPosted on11:02 am - Feb 26, 2013


briggsbhoy says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 10:33

Ideally the decent fans should be able to boo out the nutters but why leave it to the fans to self police?

As discussed a good few weeks ago all that needs to be done is for a manager, at the first sign of inappropriate singing from his teams support, to order his captian to score an own goal or alternatively call for all his players to stand still while the opposition runs up the park and scores a goal.

The other option discussed earlier today is that the manager just pulls his team of the field of play and therefore endangers his team of forfeiting the match if he does not return them to the pitch.

If the singing continues then off they go again.

A few weeks of games being awarded to the opposition 0-3 would sort it out once an for all.

In these situations a highly unusual and novel act of defiance is what is required to make it clear what the club’s view is and what it is prepared to do to put an end to matters.

The whole world would hear about it and the club would be praised to the heavens for making a stand.

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spanishceltPosted on11:33 am - Feb 26, 2013


wottpi says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 11:02

Ideally the decent fans should be able to boo out the nutters but why leave it to the fans to self police?

As discussed a good few weeks ago all that needs to be done is for a manager, at the first sign of inappropriate singing from his teams support, to order his captain to score an own goal or alternatively call for all his players to stand still while the opposition runs up the park and scores a goal.

The other option discussed earlier today is that the manager just pulls his team of the field of play and therefore endangers his team of forfeiting the match if he does not return them to the pitch.
………………………………………………………………………….
Sorry wottpi. while this all sounds admirable the authorities MUST in my opinion take the responsibility for controlling these situations.
If a team/club/companies fans are responsible for unacceptable chants, singing and add on’s then the club is immediately deducted the points (emergency meeting called following day) from that game along with a fine equivalent to the gate receipts of that clubs fans at the game whether it is home or away.

Money is the only language that certain people will respond to.

As for walking off, firstly the manager of the team with the fans singing offensive songs must find them offensive himself.
And for a team captain to be asked to score an own goal regardless of reason could be extremely dangerous.
Imagine (for instance) Celtic playing Rangers with only 3 or 4 league games to go and either team needing to win to keep hopes alive of winning the league.
A few minutes to go, winning by one goal and lennon/mcCiost after hearing an offensive chant tells their captain to score an own goal?
Never happen in a million years and a riot if it did!

We must let, in fact we must demand that the people in charge of our game and also the people who are meant to control the environment we live in face up to their responsibilities.

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briggsbhoyPosted on11:48 am - Feb 26, 2013


wottpi says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 11:02

Don’t disagree wottpi but I think there would have to be a statement of intent by the club prior to a match because it would take a brave player to put the ball in his own net without the support of the club.

Back in the late 70’s I stopped going to Parkhead for a while and I refused point blank to go to an Old Firm game because I couldn’t be arsed with the political singing and claims of allegiance to the man in Rome. Many of these guys had never seen the inside of a church nor had any direct connection with things Irish other than a surname. The same accusation but to a much greater extent could be made of the boys down Govan way. When I returned to Parkhead I was pleasantly suprised at the change of songs and atmosphere, no religious chants and very little of political stuff. The peace process and the reduction of violence in NI has certainly had an influence. As a young man growing up in Glasgow in the 70’s that was the main story every night on the news. I have views on the situation in NI but they are not connected with football.

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wottpiPosted on11:49 am - Feb 26, 2013


spanishcelt says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 11:33

Hear what you are saying and agree that the authorities need to step in.

However look at the recent horsemeat issue.
The shops like Tesco (read the club) have admitted there is something wrong and have taken action to resolve the situation long before the authorities got their act together.
Why? Because it makes good business sense to show you are on top of probklems and willing to take action to put it right.

If clubs continue to blindly ignore the bleeding obvious then why are we surprised this issue is still a blight on our game and nation.

Yes if it was a league decider then I can see it being hard to pull off.

However when your are 22 plus points clear in the four tier of Scottish Football then what harm would it do to make a fairly bold statement in front of 40kplus

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wottpiPosted on11:54 am - Feb 26, 2013


spanishcelt says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 11:33

Sorry sent that too quickly was going to add….

My main point is that something drastic, eye catching and innovative is needed to break the mould of total inaction from Authorities, Clubs and supporters. If people don’t stand up and take action now we will still be talking about this next season.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on11:58 am - Feb 26, 2013


Guys

on the songs debate..i’ts getting tiring, dull, repetitive…rather than focus on what Sevco fans did/didn’t do/could do/should do….can we move the debate on to what the SFA/SPL/SFL/Police can and should do

Whilst Sevco are definitely the focus of attention just now – plenty of other clubs have had (or will have) a spot light thrown upon them in this regard

I personally think some football chants have a great degree of humour in them and they can be very quick to reflect current events.

Sure, some of them may be unpleasant, insulting, derogatory but they are not all criminal.

For me, staying within the limits of the law is the only restriction that should be placed upon football fans

We should not try to restrict what songs a support will come up with at a game just because someone might be offended…..lets face it, you’ll find someone who gets offended at anything. I expect someone will be offended by this post and it’ll get a thumbs down

But, the “songs” debate and the constant digging up of sevco fans is becoming tiring. we know they are in the wrong, they know they are in the wrong…lets take it back to the forums of our own clubs to slag them silly….in the meantime, if we have any meaningful constructive advice for the gutless, spineless cowards “running” our game – feel free to address the broader issue

sorry if i have offended anyone.

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Galling fiverPosted on12:14 pm - Feb 26, 2013


Self policing.

Of course it’s only a suggestion of booing them down, but if he sits next to you, silent and coy about his intolerance of others and black belt in extreme violence. Then maybe it’s not such a good idea, and one I will not be participating in. Such folk tend to think if you are not the same as them, you are against them. No, let the system deal or not deal ( John Wilson )with it. After all we pay enough into the system, well some of us.

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bluPosted on12:16 pm - Feb 26, 2013


Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 11:58
But, the “songs” debate and the constant digging up of sevco fans is becoming tiring. we know they are in the wrong, they know they are in the wrong…lets take it back to the forums of our own clubs to slag them silly….in the meantime, if we have any meaningful constructive advice for the gutless, spineless cowards “running” our game – feel free to address the broader issue

sorry if i have offended anyone.

===========================================================
Not offended, relieved that someone’s tried to move things on. It’s a serious issue but agree with you that we all know who’s guilty of what and eternal repetition of this doesn’t really lead anywhere. Some scrutiny of the response from SFL, SFA and media is where the focus should be now. ESPN’s view is clear, others have offered little scrutiny.

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on12:20 pm - Feb 26, 2013


From KDS

I pulled together some links beginning 2003 which I believe highlight that this “small minority” of sectarian choir boys/girls seem very prevalent amongst the Rangers, and now Sevco, support. McCoist says in the first article: “‘We’ve come a long way”… eh, no, in fact you haven’t. By simply going through those links anyone can see that you haven’t come a long way at all – in fact, I’d suggest, that now some of the songs are worse than they were a decade ago.

2013: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284493/Ally-McCoist-says-place-sectarian-singing-Rangers.html (this article with the new club)
2012: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9091898/Rangers-face-sectarian-sanctions-after-offensive-songs-heard-during-defeat-to-Kilmarnock.html
2011: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/13239593
2010: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/nov/23/rangers-fans-sectarian-singing-manchester-united
2009: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/7894854.stm
2008: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7617518.stm
2007: http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/rangers-escape-punishment-over-sectarian-singing-324904.html
2006: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2335453/Rangers-face-new-sectarian-song-rap.html
2005: http://www.questia.com/library/1P2-1919937/football-murray-attacks-bigotry-at-rangers
2004: http://www.scotsman.com/news/standing-fast-against-hate-1-1400003
2003: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/RANGERS%27+BLUE+BOOK+IS+ANTI-BIGOT+BIBLE%3B+Club+issues+strict+new+fan…-a0101482718

Sevco have expressed “disappointment by certain outbursts of inappropriate singing” (there’s a euphemism) and now hope it will be swept under the carpet, and McCoist is wallowing in “fingers in the ears la-la land”… only the football authorities are able to put a stop to this by imposing sanctions, but why haven’t the authorities in Scotland either fined them, or dropped points against them, despite a decade of them continually participating in sectarian singing??

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wottpiPosted on12:20 pm - Feb 26, 2013


Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 11:58

Of course chants can be humerous even ones that are offensive. Sometimes humour involves returning to the same subject over and over (lord knows we’ve suffered the fish jokes on here) or dropping the subject into a situation just when you the reference has ended.
However it is a bit like a young kid doing something naughty that is also a wee bit funny. You perhaps laugh but tell them that’s wrong and not to do it again. However the chances are that they will repeat the action again because they saw the smile on your face and their elder sibblings trying to hold back the laughter. By the third time is is no longer funny, the joke is over and the kid is heading for trouble.

the same happens when someone is the butt of a repetitive joke around the table in the pub. At somepoint if it goes too far then that person will get up an lamp someone.

However a line has to be drawn and I don’t care if it is a club or the authorities but it certainly can’t be drawn by the naughty child or the bar room joker.

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ShooperbPosted on12:28 pm - Feb 26, 2013


neepheid says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 09:19

I don’t even think it comes down to it being televised – afterall Sky have shown loads of games this season with similar ‘disappointments’, perhaps not on the same scale as the weekend’s shenanigans, but in the same postcode.

it’s the fact that ESPN had the guts to point out what was wrong with that whole scene, and to apologise to their viewers for having subjected them to it that made it impossible for everyone to sidestep the issue yet again.

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tomtomPosted on12:30 pm - Feb 26, 2013


wottpi says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 11:49

Why? Because it makes good business sense to show you are on top of problems and willing to take action to put it right.

———————————————

It’s their business sense and direction that has re-ignited this whole issue. Without the supremacism, defiance and antipathy towards all things Irish (even to the extent of never wearing the strip of their second favourite national team because it contains a forbidden colour) they would be lucky to get a couple of thousand at their games.

People might not like me for saying this but the crap will remain as long as a team called Rangers plays at Ibrox. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

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neepheidPosted on12:40 pm - Feb 26, 2013


wottpi says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 11:49

The shops like Tesco (read the club) have admitted there is something wrong and have taken action to resolve the situation long before the authorities got their act together.
Why? Because it makes good business sense to show you are on top of probklems and willing to take action to put it right.
=========
Sadly, tragically in fact, it makes no business sense at all for TRFC to really deal with their little problem, because that problem is what keeps the money coming in. Without it, the business really would be bust in no time. Green is a businessman. He understood this very quickly, hence the orange strip, the tour of Northern Ireland, etc.

So it is just like Tesco- Green does what he does because he understands exactly where the money is coming from.

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Long Time LurkerPosted on12:47 pm - Feb 26, 2013


As a Dons fan it saddens me to post about a breaking scandle at the club:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-21588139

At least lamb is off of the menu.

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