The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
wottpi on Monday, March 4, 2013 at 16:52
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shield2012 says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 15:01
Hear what you say but wondering how the £8.1m figure for deferred income is arrived at.
It is detailed as being
“Deferred income comprises season tickets, sponsorship, hospitality and other elements of income which have been received in advance and will be recognised as revenue as the season progresses.”
Now the 7 month revenue to end of 2012 can be seen here expressed in £100,000
Gate receipts and hospitality 6,411
Sponsorship and advertising 381
Broadcasting rights 391
Commercial 552
Retail 941
Other operating income 848
Total 9,524.
The £6.4m must include the bulk of the 38,000 season tickets.
As people have said if you take 38k x an average price of £200 = £8.36m
10k pay as you go at £15 = £150k per home game so you can bank the money for games to end of year.
Add the two but take off the £6.4m already accounted for as revenue.
So you have a few million spare to mark as deferred income but not £8.1m
There has been no call for next season’s season tickets so that can’t be in the £8.1m because it is supposed to be mae up from money received.
The Puma and Blackthorn deals don’t start until next year so it can’t be that.
Therefore where is the other £5m or £6m coming from?
———-
Good point wottpi, but we still might be underestimating ticket revenue. Regardless, there still seems to be an obvious shortfall.
“Blackmail or terrorists” – surprisingly strong words.
I hope he can prove BOTH allegations.
Just to be clear on my earlier post. A decision of an SFA appeal board – except one relating to club licensing – can be taken to the CAS by the appellant. The SFA acknowledge the jurisdiction of the CAS and are bound by its findings.
I do not foresee any circumstances where the SPL (as the commission’s “prosecutor”) will be lodging an appeal with the SFA in relation to its commission’s findings or its sanctions. however, any member club who feels unfairly disadvantaged by an SPL decision (including from a ruling made by an SPL commission) can submit an appeal: first to the SPL, then the SFA and ultimately to the CAS.
If, by virtue of the 5-way agreement, the new Rangers are legally liable for the “football debts” of the original club, this scenario may well play out.
I do not know for certain that it is this case; but if it is…
Leaving D&P’s conduct aside, insolvency practitioners have a statutory duty to maximise the return for creditors. I see why it would be difficult for most club directors to step up to the plate – but for some, there may be little or no choice. It seems likely that Dunfermline and Hearts will enter administration over the next few weeks/months and it would seem entirely plausible that the administrators/liquidators of one or both would launch an appeal against the commission’s decisions. Hearts in particular would be owed several millions in prize money if Rangers league placings were retrospectively reassigned.
Even if Hearts do manage to avoid administration, Mr Romanov and his associates are certainly ballsy enough to take this on – if they think it can be won and potentially help with offloading their shares.
The SFA are in an extremely difficult place. On the one hand, the commission’s registration/eligibility decision is complete nonsense and simply cannot be allowed to stand.
On the other hand, providing a rules “clarification” would completely undermine all parties’ sterling efforts towards the Rangers Damage Limitation Exercise.
It may have to get to the CAS before an un-“conflicted” result is reached.
As predicted, despite all the talk of multiple interest it is Mike Ashley to the rescue once again and I’ll bet it is on terms that are favourable to him.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/216305-rangers-have-agreed-ibrox-renaming-deal-with-sports-direct/
Got to give Charles some credit for getting Mike onboard because you have to ask, given the Ashley connection with most the commercial deals to date, who else would be interested in the club.
barcabhoy on Monday, March 4, 2013 at 15:33
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shield2012 says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 15:17
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torrejohnbhoy on Monday, March 4, 2013 at 14:13
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Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
@TomEnglishSport Tom, RFIC accounts 31/12 show £251K owing on football debts,yet on 21/02 reports in MSM that Hearts accepted £400k.
———-
The £400k wasn’t football debt, it was a scheduled payment.
============================
I dont have time just now to explain this, however I’ll just say…….Wrong
——–
I stand corrected, no need to explain further. I appreciate such succinct responses.
I am amazed that anyone has the stomach for these boards any more. Rangers have won the rest of us are stuffed and there is nothing we can do now, in the past or in the future about the whole sordid affair. I do admire your resilience, though I cannot understand it.
shield2012 says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 15:17
1
12
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torrejohnbhoy on Monday, March 4, 2013 at 14:13
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Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
@TomEnglishSport Tom, RFIC accounts 31/12 show £251K owing on football debts,yet on 21/02 reports in MSM that Hearts accepted £400k.
———-
The £400k wasn’t football debt, it was a scheduled payment.
…………………………………………..
Which is a debt….however you want to cut that cake…
A persons mortgage payment…whilst being scheduled each month,,,is still a debt against the money borrowed to buy the house…if you miss a payment then you are in default of that debt repayment….but it is still a debt no matter how desperate you want Charlie to be telling the truth….the fact is the club has debts…some we know…some we may not..
Just as the season tickets sold are a reducing liability/debt after every home game…
Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia) says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 16:26
One more thing about the world’s greatest conflicted administrator:
Suppose we believe that the result of the FTT is valid(I know…..), that the money from EBT’s was just loans – the implication of this is that the head of our national game’s football association was in hock to the tune of £90,000, to an entity funded directly by the chairman of one of the member clubs, and that this money could be called in at anytime. If we give CO the benefit of the doubt, and assume that he would normally have operated in a fair minded manner, would this situation not leave him open to …er… I don’t want to say blackmail – would ‘suggestion’ be a better way of putting it? I know the normal course re-payment would be deferred indefinitely, but in order for it to be classified as a loan, there exists the mechanism to demand repayment.
Either way, the above situation alone would leave him heavily conflicted, never mind any of the other shenanigans that have gone on.
TallBoy Poppy (@TallBoyPoppy) says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:03
I think I know the source of this info and I would be grateful if you or anybody else could provide further details and/or link to Mr Monbiot’s piece.
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4929&sid=a47b2a38aba93bfb33aeea239138b129
http://www.monbiot.com/2004/12/29/a-scandal-of-secrecy-and-collusion/
I believe the article about the Spec. comes from his book Captive State.
2. For a fuller account of the Skye Bridge story, see George Monbiot, 2000. Captive State: the corporate takeover of Britain. Macmillan, London.
Whilst this site is (just about) not anti-The Rangers it has undoubtedly become The Rangers obsessed. For the life of me I can see no reason why, given that they’re a brand new club, no matter what Charles or any number of their fans might think, there is still a desire to pour over their financial details in the hope of uncovering…. what? It’s getting ball-achingly tedious. So what if Charles Green makes hilariously outlandish statements about the financial health of The Rangers.
I know full well what the old Rangers did but the fact is not one member of the current board was in any way involved with the previous scandal. I don’t see where the continuation is. Things like the behaviour of the fans and reactionary statements from McCoist and Green are certainly more worthy of attention as are any number of things happening in Scottish football at the moment. We can look beyond Govan.
[quote]
Sean McNulty says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 12:32
With apologies to those already aware of this (I only saw George Monbiot’s Guardian piece for the first time today):
LNS belongs to the same small, erm, debating society as Hamish McLeod Grossart, a debating society that seemingly never debates and that’s notorious for mutual backscratching (e.g. over the Skye bridge protests). Grossart’s nephew’s company owns over 7% of Sevco.
Parson St. Bhoy says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:48
TallBoy Poppy (@TallBoyPoppy) says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:03
I think I know the source of this info and I would be grateful if you or anybody else could provide further details and/or link to Mr Monbiot’s piece.
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Parson St. Bhoy says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:48
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4929&sid=a47b2a38aba93bfb33aeea239138b129
http://www.monbiot.com/2004/12/29/a-scandal-of-secrecy-and-collusion/
I believe the article about the Spec. comes from his book Captive State.
2. For a fuller account of the Skye Bridge story, see George Monbiot, 2000. Captive State: the corporate takeover of Britain. Macmillan, London.
[/quote]
Incredible service, as always, Parson St. Bhoy. Thanks. See you in the media watch thread.
shield2012 says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:20
Good point wottpi, but we still might be underestimating ticket revenue. Regardless, there still seems to be an obvious shortfall.
————————————————————————————————————————
IMO can’t see it.
Everyone is talking about the numbers of families going to Ibrox therefore the number of concessions is probably up thus the £220 average x the 38,000k is a good stab.
As you know there is talk of freebies and I have allowed for a full price of £15 so it could an average ticket price of £10-12 and I don;t think we have seen a crowd of over 50k so 10k pay as you go seems reasonable.
The hospitality at all clubs doesn’t bring in as much as some people believe. I remember RTC putting a figure on it based on previous seasons so it will be well down for Div 3.
Anyway you point re the ratio of turnover to wages is taken but the reality is the the deferred income £8,117m is wiped out by the deffered tax £7,817m based on the revaluation of property.
As I keep saying it is cash flow that is the main issue.
If they can keep the player wage bill down then good for them but I can’t see where they can cut other costs and the commercial deals, on the surface, do not look like bringing in a massive amount.
There may be some room to tinker with efficeincy saving but thats not going to be massive.
Newcastle are on £5m a year for Puma for the short deal, so what do you think T’Rangers will be getting? Can’t see it being more than £1m
Blacktorn is part of the C&C group which own the Tennents and Magners brand. Do you think they will be getting the same as Celtic being they have said the new deal is better than the £1.5m a year they were on with tennents. Again can’t see it being any more than £1m.
Stadium naming again no more than £1m a year.
All the above talk of £1m a deal is probably a bit generous. Not to be sniffed at but can’t see it making the necessary dent in the operating costs as outlined today.
shield2012 says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:32
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barcabhoy on Monday, March 4, 2013 at 15:33
24 0 Rate This
shield2012 says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 15:17
0 0 Rate This
torrejohnbhoy on Monday, March 4, 2013 at 14:13
3 0 Rate This
Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
@TomEnglishSport Tom, RFIC accounts 31/12 show £251K owing on football debts,yet on 21/02 reports in MSM that Hearts accepted £400k.
———-
The £400k wasn’t football debt, it was a scheduled payment.
============================
I dont have time just now to explain this, however I’ll just
say…….Wrong
——–
I stand corrected, no need to explain further. I appreciate such
succinct responses
~~~~~~~~
Is that you Adam? 😀
incredibleadamspark says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:53
0 2 Rate This
Whilst this site is (just about) not anti-The Rangers it has undoubtedly become The Rangers obsessed. For the life of me I can see no reason why, given that they’re a brand new club, no matter what Charles or any number of their fans might think, there is still a desire to pour over their financial details in the hope of uncovering…. what? It’s getting ball-achingly tedious. So what if Charles Green makes hilariously outlandish statements about the financial health of The Rangers.
I know full well what the old Rangers did but the fact is not one member of the current board was in any way involved with the previous scandal. I don’t see where the continuation is. Things like the behaviour of the fans and reactionary statements from McCoist and Green are certainly more worthy of attention as are any number of things happening in Scottish football at the moment. We can look beyond Govan.
==================================
Do you have any other topics you’d like discussed? Seriously, I’m sure we could all do with a diversion but it’s up to you to start the ball rolling if you feel so strongly about it.
incredibleadamspark says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:53
We are constanlty told Scottish Football needs a strong Ranagers therefore if they are going for Admin/Liquidation part 2 then surley we need to monitor it to be preapred for Armageddon part 2.
Obsession with the club from Ibrox or just being Aye Ready for the worst? 🙂
From Jim Spence
Rangers to speak to Dundee Utd skipper Jon Daly for a pre contract agreement for next season Utd have confirmed.
tomtomaswell says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:10
Do you have any other topics you’d like discussed? Seriously, I’m sure we could all do with a diversion but it’s up to you to start the ball rolling if you feel so strongly about it.
___________________________________________________________________________
You’re right. I’m being a wee bit petulant but the discussion always returns to The Rangers. Maybe a new article would give everyone a break.
incredibleadamspark
Whilst this site is (just about) not anti-The Rangers it has undoubtedly become The Rangers obsessed
———————————————————————
Yes, you have Hearts supporters posting about Rangers, whilst in their particular frontline of problems you have this going on
@BBCBMcLauchlin: Entire board of Hearts parent company UBIG have resigned.#BBCSPORTSCOT
To clarify, I agreed wrt to the observation of “obsessed”.
I think it fair to say that there is definately a general anti-Rangers sentiment to go with this.
I don´t think it´s even debatable.
Many will argue this has developed further due to the confrontational place that Scottish football currently occupies.
We´d better be careful or it will take Scottish football to an even darker place than it is already in.
wottpi says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:12
incredibleadamspark says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:53
We are constanlty told Scottish Football needs a strong Ranagers therefore if they are going for Admin/Liquidation part 2 then surley we need to monitor it to be preapred for Armageddon part 2.
Obsession with the club from Ibrox or just being Aye Ready for the worst?
___________________________________________________________________________
To be fair, it’s mostly the piss-poor MSM that are telling us this and in order for there to be Armageddon part 2 there would have needed to be Armageddon part 1 and I think we’re all in agreement that didn’t happen.
anti rangers, where have you been for the past year. Rangers fans have spent the year blaming and threatening everything that moves.
Rangers as a club has died and you now support a new club that you have called the rangers..You play in division 3 and must make your way as a new club to the spl over the next 5 years, good luck.
carlislecelt says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 17:34
4 7 Rate This
I am amazed that anyone has the stomach for these boards any more. Rangers have won the rest of us are stuffed and there is nothing we can do now, in the past or in the future about the whole sordid affair. I do admire your resilience, though I cannot understand it.
==========================
Really? What have they won?. Granted oldclub 1872, and directors have got off favourably in the recent LNS and FTT hearings, and the correct punishments were not handed out to the corpse. But that’s what they are, a Corpse, no matter how the media and Green spin things, that entity playing at Ibrox in blue are not Rangers, they are dead. The newclub are never going to reach the same heights as the old tenant of The Sports Direct arena, I mean Ibrox 🙂 they are tainted, with little or no credit facility, they will never again outspend Celtic. Er unless they cheat again..
chipsandblog says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:35
anti rangers, where have you been for the past year. Rangers fans have spent the year blaming and threatening everything that moves.
Rangers as a club has died and you now support a new club that you have called the rangers..You play in division 3 and must make your way as a new club to the spl over the next 5 years, good luck.
___________________________________________________________________________
Please re-read my post. I agree with everything in your first two sentences. I’m only questing the constant scrutiny of a new clubs accounts. Also, I don’t support Rangers. I used to years ago but have absolutely attachment to them now.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/216336-v…ng-ubig-board/
exiledcelt says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 14:06
============================================================
Nope, I was referring to someone bombarding the blog with his sevco spin after appearing very recently.
Why no-one likes them?
Chris Graham @ChrisGraham76_
@stephenmartin27 We hold more clout than anyone else out there. Tax case? Title stripping? Haha #WATP
greenockjack says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:25
0 1 Rate This
To clarify, I agreed wrt to the observation of “obsessed”.
I think it fair to say that there is definately a general anti-Rangers sentiment to go with this.
I don´t think it´s even debatable.
Many will argue this has developed further due to the confrontational place that Scottish football currently occupies.
We´d better be careful or it will take Scottish football to an even darker place than it is already in.
====================
Irony overload here. Being lectured by supporters of a club, who have caused mayhem in Scotish football, who’s downfall was caused by a man(Murray) they in the main lauded to the rooftops for years with barely a question of his business practices
There’s not an ounce of humility from this club , not a hint of a genuine apology. This is Club that brags about its lack of debt whilst burning £10’s of millions of other people’s money. Who have been found guilty of deliberately deceiving the entire Scottish Football family for over a decade.
And yet we get warned about getting taken to a darker place, presumably if we don’t provide a soft landing for them at their clubs expense yet again.
In the last 2 days we have had yet more lies , spin and threats from Green. His list of ludicrous claims and misrepresentations is starting to approach Murray levels
Here’s some advice if you don’t want football in Scotland to go to an even darker place.
1 Muzzle your clown of a CEO
2 Stop telling clubs who pay their bills and don’t stuff creditors , how they can’t survive without the contribution of the biggest financial failure in Scottish Football history
Big Daly would be the first ever player from the ROI to play for the Rangers…..indeed I don’t think the original Rangers had a player from ROI in 140 years…..could this be a world record for Rangers’s?
And this is a guy STV ask to come on their progs
Chris Graham @ChrisGraham76_
@stephenmartin27 I have it on good authority that Rangers suffering at hands of bigots has not gone unnoticed in the corridors of UEFA power
greenockjack says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:25
0 7 Rate This
To clarify, I agreed wrt to the observation of “obsessed”.
I think it fair to say that there is definately a general anti-Rangers sentiment to go with this.
I don´t think it´s even debatable.
Many will argue this has developed further due to the
confrontational place that Scottish football currently occupies.
We´d better be careful or it will take Scottish football to an even darker place than it is already in.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course there is a general anti-Rangers sentiment. How could there not be after reading the FTTT and Nimmo-Smith reports. They have been found guilty of premeditated rule breaking going back years. They have been found guilty of lying to cover their tracks. They deliberately sought and achieved a sporting advantage. They left a trail of debt. The new lot now boast about being cash rich and debt free.
Of course there is an anti-Rangers sentiment. Only now it is not solely the realm of ‘timmy conspiracists’. Every fan of every club now knows what Rangers have been up to. And guess what? They don’t like it.
There are two clubs responsible for the current confrontational state of Scottish football. And they’re both Rangers.
@arabest RFC(1872-2012) never did play an RoI (FAI) internationalist in their 1st team.
greenockjack says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:25
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We´d better be careful or it will take Scottish football to an even darker place than it is already in.
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So we just accept the corruption, capitulate completely in the face of the dark threats and intimidation and draw a line under it and accept our lot?
The We are the People brigade are to be appeased for fear of dragging us deeper into an abyss of hatred? I see only Rangers fans occupying this dark sewer.
Talking of obsession, I see they celebrated their guilt with their customary style and panache. Not sure if this is genuine but the fact its being eagerly shared around social software sites speaks volumes
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=23077914916573040317
Chris Graham tweets, surely a parody account, should have clarified before posting, sorry.
IMO what we have witnessed since ragers 1872 died has destroyed any semblance of Scottish football being treated as a serious football league body .
Each and every Scottish club should either be demanding the removal of sevco 2012 from our game or actively looking to escape this pathetic and laughable set up .
That does not me obsessed it makes me angry ,angry that the peepil ruining our game have left me no alternative but to walk away from the game .
I am not prepared to prop up a shambolic ,bias set up which has dropped all pretence of sporting integrity and fair play for ALL member clubs .
Before anyone asks why remove sevco 2012 ,I see the MSM and the peepils puppet are already mooting sevco 2012 getting placed in the 2nd 12 of the proposed new set up .I wondered when WE the mug punters would be told about this and ,to be fair they would be as well getting all the cheating done in the one go .When you think about it ,why wait ? the mug punters will accept anything .
@Pmacgiollabhain
Phil – will there be any developments in the (near) future re the reported winding up order surrounding the claimed unpaid £400,000 debt?
In the Murray RFC years 190 out of 191 senior clubs in Britain played an ROI full or U21 International player in their 1st team.
greenockjack says: Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:16
Most Hearts supporters post about Hearts on Hearts forums, as I would expect most Celtic supporters to post on Celtic forums and newco RFC supporters to post on oldco RFC websites (or were they also included in the asset purchase?)
I tend to post when I have something of interest to share with a wider community about RFC Hearts or whoever. I also tend to keep to facts and my interpretation of the facts, and that’s why I haven’t commented yet on the latest Hearts developments.
e.g. in the last hour STV reported that Vlad has relinquished control of Hearts and BBC report that Vlad still has a controlling influence, so who do you believe?
CG ” everyone in Scotland is jealous of us ” Had that very thought tonight whilst making plans for the Juve game. I’ll miss him.
barcabhoy says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:55
Irony overload here. Being lectured by supporters of a club, who have caused mayhem in Scotish football, who’s downfall was caused by a man(Murray) they in the main lauded to the rooftops for years with barely a question of his business practices
There’s not an ounce of humility from this club , not a hint of a genuine apology. This is Club that brags about its lack of debt whilst burning £10′s of millions of other people’s money. Who have been found guilty of deliberately deceiving the entire Scottish Football family for over a decade.
And yet we get warned about getting taken to a darker place, presumably if we don’t provide a soft landing for them at their clubs expense yet again.
In the last 2 days we have had yet more lies , spin and threats from Green. His list of ludicrous claims and misrepresentations is starting to approach Murray levels
Here’s some advice if you don’t want football in Scotland to go to an even darker place.
1 Muzzle your clown of a CEO
2 Stop telling clubs who pay their bills and don’t stuff creditors , how they can’t survive without the contribution of the biggest financial failure in Scottish Football history
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Unfortunately, this is when bitter rivalry comes into this whole debate. I agree with some of what you say but you, like many others, respond to RFC fans with a distinctly nasty tone as if it’s our fault.
I really don’t want this to turn into a major debate but people need to accept that the fans are innocent victims in this. You no doubt feel cheated and take offense to some of the things that have happened. However, who are the guilty parties here – SDM; LNS; SPL; SFA; Ogilvie; Bryson…………etc.
The fans played no part in this, and please don’t feed me the line about how we let it happen by not questioning SDM. It’s such a weak argument and whenever you target RFC fans, you are targeting all football fans because, whether you like it or not, we’re all the same. You’ll no doubt tell me that Celtic fans wouldn’t have stood for the spending and subsequent success that SDM brought to Rangers. Or maybe how Celtic fans behave impeccably with no sectarian or general bad behaviour issues. Absolute nonsense. The TD’s for this post will be a good indication of the denial in this regard.
Rangers fans will fund TRFC, Green and his investors. We will make them a profit by digging deep and spending hard earned money. TRFC fans will have to pay for this and it wasn’t our fault. Not only that, we will have to pay for the decisions that have went our way recently. We will pay because, if this site is anything to go by, fans of other clubs will target us – the fans.
In all instances, it’s the fans that end up paying…………..in every sense of the word.
These stats speak for themselves Phil.
If anyone was in any doubt what sort of club and what sort of people we are dealing with, you’re last two posts tells them all they need to know.
rougvielovesthejungle says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 19:38
It is a pretty bad stat I’ll give you that. Another of the issues is not many ROI internationals would turn out for Rangers. I remember Souness trying to sign Ray Houghton, he didn’t want to know.
When do CG’s team of record breakers have to produce ‘audited accounts’ ?
And what happened to the WUO ?
223 hrs mr Lunny 🙂
sheild- “We will pay because, if this site is anything to go by, fans of other clubs will target us – the fans.”
the irony-o-meter just exploded.
@dixonbainbridge71 “a pretty bad stat”. Would you say that if we were discussing black players and all white team? Racism is racism.
As I say Phil, don’t exactly think there was a que of Irishmen wanting to join them. The Jon Daly signing would be a big move forward.
arabest1 says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:57
..indeed I don’t think the original Rangers had a player from ROI in 140 years…
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The ROI only came into existence in 1948.
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nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 18:59
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And this is a guy STV ask to come on their progs
Chris Graham @ChrisGraham76_
@stephenmartin27 I have it on good authority that Rangers suffering at hands of bigots has not gone unnoticed in the corridors of UEFA power
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I think he’s trying to wind up PmcG, same old pishful winking.
monsieurbunny says: Monday, March 4, 2013 at 12:36
Do you have a source for this? (Don’t doubt you, just I want to be able to use this in future and would like to be able to back it up if challenged. There are topics, and football’s one of them where Google is not easy for finding stuff.)
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It came from an “Ask Jim” question at the Daily Record sports desk. (I doubt if it was JT though, as it was a question from 1996)
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Hey+Jim%3B+Can+you+settle+an+argument+%3F-a061181282
[SFM Edit – would have been Jim Blair EJ. Another warmer :-)]
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/44556120437/rangers-interim-results#_=_
On the interim financials
The Jon Daly thing is interesting. Certainly, for once, Green should be lauded for attempting to broaden the horizons of the club somewhat, however, considering his business plan has been to appeal to the hardcore, it is also the very antithesis of his actions prior to today. Renaming Ibrox will only further inflame the people he has based his entire plans on.
@dixonbainbridge71 No queue of Irishmen because of the racist baggage of the dead club.
No other club in Britain would create the Famine Song
I have some sympathy for the Shield’s post at 19.37, however, whilst he has on occasion had some hostility directed toward him, I am sure he recognises that much of that ill-feeling is directed at the troll-like rhetorical questioning which he and others have sometimes descended to.
There are those who are hostile to Rangers fans, but there is far more hostility evident when someone questions the basis of that belief that Rangers have been (and for the purposes of semantics I will choose my words carefully) driving a coach and horses quite deliberately through the rules and regulations of the SPL and SFA.
Further hostility is reserved for those who wonder out loud what their (RFC’s) motive could have been for doing so, quite disingenuously suspending belief in the bleedin’ obvious – that they did it to gain an advantage. Even further by the suggestion that they may have done it to “gain an economic edge over competitors” (not to be confused with gaining an advantage.
Perhaps the Shield and other Rangers fans really do believe that there was nothing dishonest or dodgy about this behaviour, but the vast majority of fans, not just here but all over the country, are having none of that. To them Rangers cheated their way to several trophies. The feeling of anger and injustice is compounded though, because the authorities have pretty much provided that parachute and safety blanket to enable them to dodge the justice they had coming to them.
The irony of the sabre rattling that has gone on in the last several months is that the subjects of much of that bitterness and scapegoating (the other clubs) are the very ones who have aided and abetted their escape from football oblivion
Consequently, (non Rangers) Scottish football fans will find themselves in two distinct camps. The first, of which I am a member, is never again to spend a penny of my disposable income on Scottish football. The other is that constituency of fans who will forever tar Rangers with the brush of cheats, and who will never accept or allow that they are the same club that will shortly be liquidated.
Reconciliation will only now be possible when Rangers fans are not just the majority, but the entirety of the Scottish game.
With the SPL to consider the LNS report….I believe it is appropriate that they seek clarification from UEFA on their interpretation of official matches where ineligable players have played and the choice of sanctions they would expect a member association to apply…if a member club was found guilty of such a breach.
As it would be seeking clarification and not an appeal I see nothing wrong in this.
Depending on the clarification provided would determine the next course of action….there is a major point of sporting integrity at stake here…
Re the alleged tweet from Chris Graham I think the last people “Teflon RFC ” want involved are UEFA that would expose the SFA to a bit more scrutiny than they would like in terms of interpretation of the rules
easyJambo
It was IMO the example closest to hand and not a slight on yourself.
FWIW I think your one of the more balanced posters on this site.
Scottish football can never be healed whilst the injustice persists. The opportunity for afresh start was systematically destroyed by the footballing legal and even tax authorities. Rangers were a disgrace during the embargo on catholics yet no action was ever taken they were a disgrace when they spent other people’s money to such an etent that the club died yet they were ressurected. They are still running a bankrupt model wher expenditure exceeds income and there are no facilities to service debt. Hearts face possible bankruptcy. They may or may not survive but their fate will not be deemed essential.
easyjambo
you are
I tend to rely on an edit option and there isn´t one on here !!
Shield2012
Not wishing to put the boot in, honestly, here comes the however, your assertion that it is not the fan’s fault , is symptomatic of the pickle that you find you and your fellow Rangers fans find yourselves in.
I am sure that you are a fine upstanding chap and do not indulge in the more extreme past-times of the large minority in the support , the fans contribution to the Rangers Downfall however , can be summed up as, WATP ……
The TD’s for this post will be a good indication of the denial………………………….
LOLOLOLLLLOLO
Even trying to rig the posts. Classic.
Big Pink says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 20:24
Reconciliation will only now be possible when Rangers fans are not just the majority, but the entirety of the Scottish game.
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And for that to happen Celtic would have to fold and without supporters they will. The SFA have drawn back the curtains on the stage of Scottish Football and what has been revealed is ugly indeed unpalatable.
Scotland is perhaps the only country in the world where the phrase “sporting integrity” is spat out in disgust as if it confirmed a character defect on the part of the user. So I won’t apologise for saying that after the fact of the failed CVA and liquidation, the only further casualty of the failure to deal with these matters within the rules and in a spirit of fairness is – sporting integrity.
We chortled as Traynor used the phrase with contempt and as an insult, but now we know (just as Traynor said) that integrity doesn’t exist in Scottish football. Will anyone in Scottish football appeal LNS on the grounds that sporting integrity has suffered? Don’t make me laugh.
And don’t forget that LNS didn’t just let them walk away free of consequences, they wrote them a note saying it is ok to do it again as long as they don’t get caught!
If you continue to support football because you believe in it as a sport, you are deluded, because there is no level playing field. You can’t possibly beat a club who make the rules up as they go along.
If you follow football because you have some need to beat Rangers – forget it. THEY are the people and no-one else. The SFA, the SPL, Lord Glennie and now LNS all say so.
Who would bet (after seeing the pantomime lengths and suspension of incredulity that went on last summer in order to save them) against Rangers having won more than half of the next twenty titles?
Unless you are a fan of the New Rangers, it is a waste of time, money and effort.
Nobody is riding in here on a white charger to rescue Scottish football. It really is gone.
We should all turn to a more honest pursuit, like banking or tabloid journalism.
Firstly, I thought racism, accusations and suggestions of such were non grata on this clog. Does it work both ways? Is it relevant that Rangers FC have not played an ROI player? Personally, I don’t think so and I’m not sure why it’s mentioned here.
Secondly … Shield, mate, the problem that everyone else has with Rangers fans is the (NB … general) attitude on display. The shouts of “innocent” and “vindicated” when found guilty, the perceived vicitimisation, the determination to stuff everyone else, the “fly kick when we’re down” nonsense, the “demoted/relegated” thing, the rubbish Mr Green speaks which is lapped up, the “enough punishment” when the whole world can see how lightly Rangers FC have been treated, the world records which are nothing of the sort, the bullying of the media, the boycotts.
In short, the WATP mentality.
Nobody likes arrogance.
Big Pink says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 20:24
Consequently, (non Rangers) Scottish football fans will find themselves in two distinct camps. The first, of which I am a member, is never again to spend a penny of my disposable income on Scottish football. The other is that constituency of fans who will forever tar Rangers with the brush of cheats, and who will never accept or allow that they are the same club that will shortly be liquidated.
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Hey Pink, are you allowed to have a foot in both of these camps? That is where I currently find myself.
Firstly a plea that everyone ‘keeps the heid.’ I enjoy the debate and appreciate the efforts of those willing to reasonably forward their side of the arguement. Yes it is currently rangers centric at present – that is to be expected given the scale of events recently seen. Deal with it. Yes it is embittered in a touchy feely way simply because a lot of ‘reasonable fans’ currently are embittered. Deal with that too, or provide a reason (that doesn’t involve the words “what” or “aboot”) why the bitterness is misplaced. Lords knows we could all do with it.
If I could pick up on previous comments. Firstly Big Pink, I’m with you at the moment. Top tier and national football will exist perfectly well without me I’m sure. In order to induce me back what can I expect of Doncasters* finest marketing team? Is it a/ come back and see the SPL where 5 points separate 9 teams (or whatever it is now) or b/ whichever statement is most likely to inflame the very bitterness that we concede is there and Regan* and the like say we should all move on from.
And on the RFC fans paying – which they have and will continue to, that much I don’t dispute. But they also have a trophy cabinet to show for it.
Oh and Phil. I have heard some truly disgusting chants (some funny it must be said, some certainly not) from the most unlikely sources at several UK grounds. I can assure you the fans of several clubs are capable of the depths you describe as an Ibrox problem.
greenockjack says:Monday, March 4, 2013 at 20:33
easyJambo
It was IMO the example closest to hand and not a slight on yourself.
FWIW I think your one of the more balanced posters on this site.
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No probs
I think the problem that TRFC have is the display in Berwick is a large portion of their fans mindset. They seem to be 2 generations behind modern Scotland and it will take that long to resolve. The continual threats and demands for an apology for their wrong doing means that as a club they will be alienated for decades.
Phil MacGiollaBhain (@Pmacgiollabhain) says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 19:06
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@arabest RFC(1872-2012) never did play an RoI (FAI) internationalist in their 1st team.
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Out of interest Phil, what point did you think I was making, if not the one make above?
Dundee Utd Chairman wants to move on. Guess thats it.
Sorry about the grammar…..should read
if not the one you make above?
angus1983 says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 20:51
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Secondly … Shield, mate, the problem that everyone else has with Rangers fans is the (NB … general) attitude on display. The shouts of “innocent” and “vindicated” when found guilty, the perceived vicitimisation, the determination to stuff everyone else, the “fly kick when we’re down” nonsense, the “demoted/relegated” thing, the rubbish Mr Green speaks which is lapped up, the “enough punishment” when the whole world can see how lightly Rangers FC have been treated, the world records which are nothing of the sort, the bullying of the media, the boycotts.
In short, the WATP mentality.
Nobody likes arrogance.
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I understand but we both know a lot of this is because of what’s reported in tabloids and on TV.
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 21:19
Dundee Utd Chairman wants to move on. Guess thats it.
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Auldheid, I have not seen this elsewhere but have no reason to doubt your veracity. Considering the nonsense Dundee United have been subjected to over the last year, it really is over if they are leading the vanguard of the “move on” cheerleaders.
One point that I do not think anyone has mentioned yet is that the loss of fans will not only be current supporters but also future generations. Which parent is going to take his/her sons or daughters to the fitba’ and lie to them that everyone has an equal chance and that you can trust the referees & authorities?
As a side note, it is good to see Glasgow Warriors doing so well this season … even the national rugby team looks like it could do something this year. This is a sport where I trust the referees & authorities. A valid alternative!
I have now had the chance to review the interim accounts, and one or 2 things seem a bit unusual. If you look the deferred income the money from whatever it is included in the money in the bank, therefore when this income is released, over a period we don’t know this will be used to clear running costs. It looks a bit dubious to me that they could have £22m in the bank , as if you look at the share issue, 22m of the shares issued were a share exchange, and therefore not a cash inflow, yet the whole of the figure from the share issue is included in the cashflow. Only cash movements should be shown here. A cynical person might think that the deferred income is somehow related to the issue of shares, and this is hidden in the cash balance.
In respect to the intangible assets, the accounts say there was no consideration paid for this, therefore does this mean it is internally generated, and under IAS 38 internally generated goodwill is forbidden from being capitalised, so it will be interesting to see how this pans out at the year end when audited accounts are due, as hopefully Deloitte will scrutinise this carefully.
The perfect opportunity for us the fans to show the SFA their rule makers/breakers what we think of the current gerrymandering going on is coming soon. The two semi’s of the SFA’s flagship tournament will be televised live so how would it look if on TV it was played out in front of empty stadiums, I know it’s a big ask but really what have we to lose. Is there a will out there to do it, I can’t be the only person feeling that It would hurt the SFA in the pocket and, its a tangible display of our disgust at being treated like idiots.
I nearly said it would embarrass them but you know…………
Geordie Boy.
Put it this way, if young smugas becomes interested in a season ticket for his nearest (or god forbid not his nearest) SPL team I will immdiately be asking him if wouldn’t prefer junior golf clubs instead. 5 years ago he’d have been getting a season ticket whether he wanted it or not!
Geordie Bhoy says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 21:42
Heard him say it on BBC Sportsound podcast tonight.
Apologies ,playing catch up,going back a few hours posts ,could LNS not have been pesuaded that it was performing enhancing loans that helped ehh the trophy collection
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Monday, March 4, 2013 at 21:57
Heard him say it on BBC Sportsound podcast tonight.
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Auldheid, thanks for that. It strengthens my resolve that Scottish football will not get another penny out of me.