The following post comes about as a result of the research and work put in by Auldheid.
He has drafted the submission to FIFA detailed below after closely looking at their rules, and taking on board the points contained in the Glasnost “Golden Rule” blog. TSFM has attached the blog’s name to the report since the overwhelming – but not unanimous – view of our readership is that the SFA and the SPL have again gotten themselves into an almighty and embarrassingly amateur fankle over this issue.
We believe that tens of thousands of football fans will be lost to the game if the outcome of the LNS enquiry is not perceived to be commensurate with the scope and extent of the rule breaking that LNS found had taken place. In view of this, we believe that we have to do what we can to explore all possibilities for justice for those who love the game so much and yet are utterly disillusioned by recent events.
LNS is not being questioned here. He has found that RFC were guilty as charged by the SPL.
What is being questioned is the SFA’s crucial – and seemingly conflicted – role in the LNS enquiry, as is the effectiveness of LNS’s recommended sanction as either a deterrent or an upholder of sporting integrity.
It came to our notice last week that FIFA have created a web site at
https://www.bkms-system.net/bkwebanon/report/clientInfo?cin=6fifa61&language=eng
that tells us that FIFA have implemented a regulatory framework which is intended to ensure that all statutory rules, rules of conduct and internal guidelines of FIFA are respected and complied with.
In support of that regulatory framework FIFA have set up the above site as a reporting mechanism by means of which inappropriate behaviour and infringements of the pertinent regulations may be reported.
FIFA say that their jurisdiction encompasses misconduct that (1) relates to match manipulation; (2) occurs in or affects more than one confederation, so that it cannot adequately be addressed by a single confederation; or (3) would ordinarily be addressed by a confederation or association, but, under the particular facts at issue, has not been or is unlikely to be dealt with appropriately at that level.
Discussions arising from the previous blog on TSFM, “Gilt Edged Justice”, which was published after Lord Nimmo Smith (LNS) ruled on the registration of Rangers players who had contractual side letters that were not disclosed to the SFA as part of their registration, suggest that there may be possible unfortunate consequences for football arising from the evidence presented by the SFA to the LNS enquiry that informed its findings on registration and consequent eligibility. There is also a question of the propriety of the SFA providing evidence on an issue which could have had a negative impact on them had it been found that they had failed to carrying out their registration duties with due rigour over a period of ten years when the existence of EBTs was known to officials within the SFA.
On the basis that the LNS findings require that registration rules be clarified by FIFA and rewritten globally if necessary to remove any ambiguity and under clause 3 above, this appears to be an issue that the FIFA should examine and that the SFA cannot address.
The following report has therefore been submitted by TSFM on behalf of its readers to FIFA drawing on the content and debate following the “Gilt Edged Justice” blog in respect of the possible footballing consequences of the LNS enquiry.
The hope is that by speaking for so many supporters, FIFA will give the TSFM submission some weight, but individuals are free of course to make their own points in their own way. We await acknowledgement of the submission.
The report Submitted to FIFA is as follows;
This report was prepared on behalf of the 10,000-strong readership of The Scottish Football Monitor at http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/
It is our belief that FIFA general rules of conduct were breached by the SFA and their employees in both creating and then advising The Lord Nimmo Smith (LNS) enquiry into the non disclosure of full payment information to the Scottish Football Association (SFA) by Rangers F.C during a period of player registration over 10 years from 2000.We believe that although the issue has been addressed by the SFA the particular facts at issue suggest that it has not been dealt with appropriately and we therefore ask FIFA to investigate. The facts at issue are that the process and advice given failed to uphold sporting integrity, and that a conflict of interest was at play.
We believe the advice provided and the enquiry set up, where SFA both advised and is the appellant body, breaches not only the integrity the registration rules were intended to uphold, but also totally undermines the integrity of the SFA in breach of General Conduct rules 1, 2 and 4. (See below.)
1. Firstly we believe that the advice supplied to LNS that an incorrectly registered player was eligible to play as long as the registration was accepted by the SFA however unwittingly, undermines the intent of the SPL/SFA rules on player registration and so undermines the integrity of football in three ways.
• It incentivises clubs to apply for a player to be registered even if they know that the conditions of registration are not satisfied, in the hope that the application will somehow ‘slip through the net’ and be granted anyway (in which case it will be valid until revoked).
• A club which discovers that it has made an error in its application is incentivized to say nothing and to ‘let sleeping dogs lie’ – because it would be in a better position by not confessing its mistake.
• And most importantly, it incentivises fraud. By deliberately concealing relevant information, a club can ensure that a player who does not satisfy the registration conditions is treated as being eligible – and therefore allowed to play – for as long as a period as possible (potentially his entire spell with the club). Then, if the club is no longer around when the deception is finally discovered, imposing meaningful sanctions may be impossible.
2. Secondly we believe the process followed was inappropriate due to a Conflict of Interest. Had the LNS enquiry not ruled on the basis of advice supplied by The SFA, they and those persons advising the LNS enquiry, could have been subjected to censure and the SFA to potential compensation claims had LNS found that the players were indeed ineligible to play and results then been annulled as was SFA practice when an ineligible player played.
3. Finally we contend that a law should not be applied according to its literal meaning if to do so would lead to an absurdity or a manifest injustice or in this case loss of football integrity.
See http://glasnostandapairofstrikers.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/gilt-edged-justice/4. We therefore ask FIFA to investigate both the process used and advice given to Lord Nimmo Smith to satisfy themselves that FIFA’s intentions with regard to upholding the integrity of football under FIFA rules have not been seriously damaged by the LNS findings and also to reassure Scottish football supporters that the integrity of our game has not been sacrificed by the very authority in whose care it has been placed to promote the short term cause of commercialism to the games long term detriment.
General Rules of Conduct (These are taken from the FIFA web site itself and can be found as part of completing the submission process)
1. Persons bound by this Code are expected to be aware of the importance of their duties and concomitant obligations and responsibilities.
2. Persons bound by this Code are obliged to respect all applicable laws and regulations as well as FIFA’s regulatory framework to the extent applicable to them.
3. N/A
4. Persons bound by this Code may not abuse their position in any way, especially to take advantage of their position for private aims or gains.
I like the look of the 2 concerts we’re hosting during the summer. Should be a good weekend and a Scottish club makes a few quid hopefully.
Regarding the institutional investors in Rangers, has anyone yet confirmed in which particular institution they are being detained?
Quick random question re. current League reconstruction proposal of 12/12/18.
Has the prospective voting structure been mentioned in detail ?
Killiemad 10.15
Fast tracking is match fixing.
Celtic must be his big team.
I think the question people like Graeme Speirs fail to consider, far less answer, is if any team is given preferential treatment for the good of the game then does that preferential treatment continue forever.
If a team has to be fast tracked to the top because everyone else is better off by that, then the logical extension is that they must also be exempted from relegation, or even worse going out of business all together.
That team has to be given special treatment in perpetuity. That surely makes a mockery of the whole game.
Lord Wobbly says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 12:36
greenockjack says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 11:23
LW
Just as long as one club is not given advantages over others.
————————————————————
I think you have to be realistic with your demands when
considering the well-being of the Scottish game being played at a certain level or be prepared to support a game that in terms of quality bears no resemblence to what you have been used to and suffers a downward spiral of revenue via match-day income, TV,etc.
It´s a stark choice.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is indeed a stark choice. In my view, a league where one club is ‘catered for’ is a league not worth having.
——————————————————–
If Rangers going bust doesn’t make everyone realise that the quality we’ve been used to is unsustainable then there can’t be much hope. Sadly, too many with influence feel that bringing the new Rangers up to the top league will mean unrealistic spending can begin again with no negative consequences. A desire to return to a failed model is bizarre. I can’t help but feel that clubs are going to be caught out by believing the new Rangers have a long term plan. And all on the live TV they crave. How embarrassing.
Talking of making space for new players, I note in a McCoist interview in SoS today that he includes Sandaza among the players they’ve “lost” this season.
Is Ally anticipating an announcement on Mr Sandaza’s future here?
SPL2 or giving Sevco a “haun” up into the middle 12 of the SPFL 12-12-18
if they are invited in, based on spurious criteria of stadium size/facilities etc…i’ll be interested to see how they will simply discard any suggestion of having to provide audited accounts (even 1 years, never mind 3)
Are SPL simply going to bin their rules on this?
Simply enough, for speirs to claim not including Rangers is prejudicial i would say to him “how do we know Sevco are on a safe financial footing?”
they are a new club, running at a huge loss with huge overheads that can’t simply be cut – not to mention a hugely expensive playing squad which they are seeking to add to
they dont have any financial history.
To include them at this stage could be hugely damaging to every other league club
Look at the anger from SFL1 clubs over Dunfermline situation – if the Dunfermline results are expunged from the record it’ll tighten up the title race and whilst the rules will have been applied – it makes a bit of a mockery of the league
greenockjack says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 13:21
0 0 Rate This
Quick random question re. current League reconstruction proposal of 12/12/18.
Has the prospective voting structure been mentioned in detail ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought I had read something at one point but this is the best I can find.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/aberdeen/209239-explained-how-the-scottish-football-league-reconstruction-model-would-work/
Voting rights
No information has been provided by the governing bodies as to how the voting structure would work in the new league.
It is understood clubs would be given an equal vote on matters which apply specifically to the league they are in at the time. Finer details on other votes, such as those requiring the input of all 42 teams, are yet to be decided.
Flocculent Apoidea says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 13:37
I agree. The desire to return to a business model which has resulted in both liquidations and administrations is totally bizarre.
It really is time for clubs, and the whole game, to be realistic. To employ players they can afford and to pay wages which are sustainable.
There are clubs who seem to realise this and are either working on models like that, or moving towards them. By not offering contract extensions on the same wages which they cannot afford, by letting those players go and replacing them with more realistic alternatives.
I think that is the way the Scottish game has to go and I genuinely believe it will help everyone. Not least the national team if we have more young Scottish players making it through into our teams.
This is the reality whether Rangers are fast tracked or not. The financial side of the game needs to fundamentally change.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 12:56
13 0 Rate This
Falkirk statement on reconstructions
sorry, can’t copy and paste the test – but click the link and give them the hits – it’s worth the read…especially if you are of the opinion Longmuir is working to charles greens agenda and is trying to derail the changes
http://www.falkirkfc.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6393&Itemid=320
_____________________________________________________________________
pic.twitter.com/GZ04985Dg1
It’s out in the open now….It’s Longmuir who’s trying to throw a spanner in the works……almost certainly being Greens puppet.
Flocculent Apoidea says:
Sadly, too many with influence feel that bringing the new Rangers up to the top league will mean unrealistic spending can begin again with no negative consequences. A desire to return to a failed model is bizarre. I can’t help but feel that clubs are going to be caught out by believing the new Rangers have a long term plan.
———————————————————————
I think it more simple tbh.
Those involved want to preserve the Financial Gravy Train as best they can
The governing bodies who lack leadership.
The clubs who have their own selfish agendas.
The players who don´t work hard enough.
The media who fail to address the real issues.
As I asked earlier, is this gravy train worth saving ?
Generally, the punter who funds the gravy train has ever less disposable income and is so unhappy with so many aspects within the domestic game, shouldn´t they look to rip it up and start again ?
Thank´s Scottc !
During another discussion on Radio Scotland last night there was another incredibly embarrassing moment, I think it was also Mr Speirs but I’m not 100% certain.
They were discussing SPL1 and SPL2 and it potentially being a “closed shop”. We were informed that was incredibly unhealthy as the top leagues needed the competition, the prospect of being relegated and new teams coming in. The teams in the lower league needed the prospect of being promoted into the bigger leagues, something to play for basically. All very good, and not a lot to argue with, makes sense to me.
However then it continued with a discussion on perfectly well run clubs wanting to make it into the senior leagues, clubs who had been trying to do that for years and were well set up to make the move up. The example given, as it normally is, was Spartans. Now maybe it was my imagination, but there seemed to be a pregnant pause when that was said. A kind of, well this is a bit awkward moment. Of course the conversation then moved swiftly on to other things, with a general agreement that promotion and relegation and a pyramid system were a good idea.
If Radio Scotland did irony …
greenockjack says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 13:21
1 0 Rate This
Quick random question re. current League reconstruction proposal of 12/12/18.
Has the prospective voting structure been mentioned in detail ?
————
I believe some chairmen see hope in the proposals precisely because the voting structure will change. But exactly how I don’t think has been mentioned. Didn’t Doncaster say yesterday that the complete proposals were first sent out to clubs two weeks ago?
Personally, I hope it goes through. It’s not perfect, but as one chairman pointed out, future tweaks to the setup will be much easier via one body and the revamped voting structure.
Dunfermlines Andy Barrowman now signed for Dundee – good luck to him. was facing 3 months without income – and wishart at the PFA was doing feck all to help
(oops, sorry, wrong forum!!! please delete)
NTHM
Was it meant for http://www.worldofparanoia.com ?
You omit footage of the handball of Samaras (was a blatant penalty) from the first half but then that didn´t really happen, it never really happens up the other end !!
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 14:43
0 0 Rate This
(oops, sorry, wrong forum!!! please delete)
———–
Indeed.
PS Anyway, you need to see the full footage of the Stokes thing. I was watching and was not convinced it was a foul. We should be highlighting the tribute Celtic paid to St Mirren at the start, that was great.
Re Spartans, I thought Doncaster said that progressive clubs like Spartans cannot get into the league. I wonder why ?
Was he not referring to the situation if his proposals were not accepted and instead they went down the SPL1 and SPL2 route. That is if there was no pyramid structure then there would be no promotion into the SPL from the SFL and no promotion into senior football from the junior ranks.
As I understand it he seems to be saying that people have to accept his new proposals in full or not at all. That it’s all or nothing.
So we have another heavily conflicted office bearer in Scottish football allegedly derailing the current attempts to modernise the game . Hands up If you think he’ll fall on his sword if it works and a short time later he’ll accept the “Green” pound because it would be criminal to have such a good administrator out of the game .
I’m sorry I don’t know what I was thinking this is Scotland ,he’ll just transfer straight away, why wait the genie would appear to be out the bottle. If Doncaster can see through you the games up.
ecobhoy says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 12:30
I keep wondering whether there is any evidence that the Albion lease has been bought-out and Edmiston House actually purchased.
=======================
From the interim results to 31 December 2012- Pretty conclusive I think.
17. Post Balance Sheet Events
On 9 January 2013 the Group purchased Edmiston House and the Albion car park for a total cost of £2,412,000.
Speirs shows a complete lack of depth on invite to Sevco mantra at expense of clubs above them in league position but a worse lack of decency at the cheap shot at Cosgrove , and he knows what that can mean to the mob. Even cheaper was the cowardly aside from Macintyre that lots of calls in saying Cosgrove was anti-Rangers. Would MacIntyre have highlighted the calls on the Pro- Rangers accusations against the vast majority of his colleagues over the last year?
Any voice against the corruption in Scottish football is going to have to put up with these sleazebags and have a strong will and lots of support from outwith the grotesque MSM.
Big Pink says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 11:18
Guys,
Can we draw a line under the refereeing stuff now? We have let it go thus far so that people can have their say, but it is starting to become tiresome. I’ve had to remove some of the wilder contributions, so please let us take it elsewhere.
=======================================
Probably a good point. There are many other forums it can be discussed on.
http://www.rangers.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=534167
Poll: 3rd division title – is it number 55?
Rangers clinched the third division title yesterday. Some fans are calling it league title number 55? But does it count as 55? Or are we clutching at straws?
That is the question in our latest poll. Third division title, is it number 55? Yes or No?
Please vote and feel free to comment on the article below, on the forums, facebook, or twitter.
Read more: http://www.rangers.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=534167#ixzz2P8PWzP9B
neepheid says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 16:03
ecobhoy says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 12:30
I keep wondering whether there is any evidence that the Albion lease has been bought-out and Edmiston House actually purchased.
=======================
From the interim results to 31 December 2012- Pretty conclusive I think.
17. Post Balance Sheet Events
On 9 January 2013 the Group purchased Edmiston House and the Albion car park for a total cost of £2,412,000.
=============================================
I did notice the comment in the 6 month figures but was a bit puzzled because the AIM Flotation document said that the £1.5 million + Vat re the Albion Street Car Park wasn’t due until 15 January to the Head Tenant and that the £800,000 + Vat purchase price for Edmiston House wasn’t due until 28 February.
I was quite surprised that Green had paid the money early as it could have been earning interest in Rangers International bank account. However, suppose I should have have added ‘independent’ to my original question when requesting evidence.
Who knows maybe Rangers International has no probs with cash and is well able to pay-up early.
So much bluff, double-bluff & bluster.
Some serious concerns were raised a couple of weeks ago that the SFL Chief Executive David Longmuir was attempting to spike the current (and probably unique) opportunity to unify the Scottish leagues. By creating an unnecessary – and so obviously spurious – diversion of suggesting that we should add colts teams to the structure, he (it was alleged) hoped to manufacture a fatal split within the body of member clubs and by default, maintain the SPL/SFL status-quo for next season.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2292457/SFL-chief-David-Longmuir-accused-pandering-Rangers-Celtic.html
It appears that being unable to champion the bogus colts idea at the SFL meeting this week, Mr Longmuir, has become less sophisticated in his efforts to scupper reconstruction plans.
http://www.falkirkfc.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6393&Itemid=320
Let’s be absolutely clear. The renewed call for SPL2 is a direct result of Mr Longmuir’s influence.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rumour-mill-spl2-back-on-kilmarnock-takeover-dunfermline-1-2865499
Does it matter whether Mr Longmuir is working purposefully on his own behalf – simply to keep his job – or working to a joint agenda with some other party? Whatever the reason for his behaviour, we should focus on his apparent objectives.
Those who believe that a unified league structure is in the long-term interest of Scottish football should be lobbying their club and telling them so. They should be demanding that their club support the current proposals.
The best way to counteract David Longmuir’s destructive behaviour is to largely ignore it. Focus on what influence you can bring to bear. Ensure that your club knows what you want.
SPL2 next season is a legal nightmare for any club who tries to resign the SFL in breach of the articles. Without giving the required notice, they will face a substantial claim for damages – a far greater amount than they would hope to gain by joining SPL2.
I cannot see any circumstances that would allow SPL2 to happen next season.
Whilst I do not like the 12-12 / 8-8-8 idea, I think it should be a short-term price worth paying. The configuration of the leagues can – and i’m sure will be – adjusted later. Under the current structures and iniquitous prize allocation, the opportunity to keep full-time football beyond the top 12 clubs is simply unlikely to exist for very much longer.
I see ‘The Group’ is given as having purchased Edmiston House and the Albion car park. Interesting that it isn’t just given as TRFCL as my understanding is that ‘The Group’ consists of TRFCL and all other subsidiary undertakings of TRFCL.
I wonder if this means they are actually in a subsidiary company/companies possibly like the new security company. Obviously the Albion generates quite a bit of match-day cash – I think the last I heard it was £8 a car.
ecobhoy says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 17:41
0 0 Rate This
I see ‘The Group’ is given as having purchased Edmiston House and the Albion car park. Interesting that it isn’t just given as TRFCL as my understanding is that ‘The Group’ consists of TRFCL and all other subsidiary undertakings of TRFCL.
=====
The Group is RIFC (the PLC) and TRFC (the subsidary which operates the football side). The interim accounts did not separate the two, but you can take it as certain that all the properties are held by RIFC. So once the money runs out, TRFC can be liquidated leaving RIFC with a valuable property portfolio, and no loss making football subsidiary to support.
Having listened in detail to last nights sportsound debate involving Neil Doncaster , Stuart Cosgrove and Graham Spiers, I think it’s very clear Spiers position was nonsensical
He continuously questioned Doncasters position. He repeatedly asked whether it was tenable. Yet Doncaster told Spiers on a number of occasions that the indicative position from SPL clubs was 100% supportive of the proposal
On the other hand Longmuir has 50% of his members in direct opposition to his favored position. Yet there wasn’t a suggestion at all from Spiers that Longmuirs position was in any way untenable, merely a nod in the direction of a caller that Longmuir needed to make a statement that he wasn’t being worked from the back by Green
Stuart Cosgroves frustration at Spiers position was obvious. He attempted to keep the discussion relevant, and was rewarded for this by a low brow accusation from Spiers of anti Rangers bias.
Anti Rangers bias is the last refuge of the scoundrel in these debates. Spiers had a “Bobby Madden ” last night and it showed him in a very poor light
As always I stand to be corrected, but I wasn’t able to watch or listen to the full coverage of the St Mirren v Celtic game. I did see the very surprising sight of Charles Green sittind suspiciously far away from Peter Lawwell and the Sky commentators pointing out his presence in a very suggestive manner (that you would expect to see Peter Lawwell at the game but not Green).
Radio Scotland had Chick Young at he game, it wasn’t Open All Mics so he was there for interviews, Richard Gordon to present and Rob McLean to commentate. Anyone who knows St Mirren Park knows that the media personnel are at the most twenty yards from the directors box. Did Young or Gordon interview Green as to why he was there, or report the fact that he declined if they had approached.
Surely he hasn’t appointed himself scout?! It can only have been to meet Lawwell which interests me greatly. How do Celtic fans feel about that? I am assuming no mention was made on radio, but am happy to be corrected as I say, but if not why not?
How complicit in the stitch up is Mr Lawwell?
The question must be asked.
Killiemad
Way off target with that particular piece of fly fishing
Wonder if Vincent Lunney has taken time today to write to Neil Lennon re his description of the referees performance today, or will he wait till Tuesady since its a holiday weekend.
killiemad says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 18:15
How complicit in the stitch up is Mr Lawwell?
The question must be asked.
——————————
Wow, and we are the paranoid ones? If I wanted to speak with Peter Lawwell without anyone knowing, I wonder where I could do that… Emmmmmmmm….
I have no doubts that Peter Lawwell has influence Killie, and is well aware of the positive implications of having a Rangers team in the SPL, that is why he agreed with the newco being given a spot when they first applied and also agreed to them going into the SFL1. But I also believe after the fans told him that was not acceptable, added to the financial benefits of regular Champions League, he realises that fast tracking Rangers is not the only solution and certainly not the best business decision. I could be wrong but I don’t think so.
Let us be clear, I believe Peter Lawwell and Celtic are as much involved in this as anyone else, no more, no less! Anyone that believes otherwise is, in my opinion, living in denial.
But for some reason there are some posters who want Peter Lawwell to do what others are not, to come out and say “I don’t want Rangers in the SPL” or “I think Rangers are a new club and in no way related to The Oldco” etc… They want to see Celtic take the lead but then complain that they think they are too big for their boots, they want Celtic to solve the problems but blame them in some way for issues existing in the first place, they want to shut the Celtic fans up about this whole debacle by showing them that they are just as bad…. I could go on.
You want Peter Lawwell to tell you what Charles Green was doing at the game? Why? The game was not at Parkhead/Celtic Park. Why not ask the people at St. Mirren? Did you do your homework and note how many other key stakeholders from other clubs were in attendance? Why not ask them if they are there to hear what Charles Green said?
Interesting and strange double speak from Ally in today’s Sunday Ranger.
TRFC do not want to abandon the SFL clubs as they gave them the opportunity to play football. Leaving to join SPL2 would leave a bad taste in the mouth.
He then goes on to say, “but that is not to say we wont join SPL2.
killiemad says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 18:15
Desperate?
barcabhoy says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 18:14
I agree entirely with you on these comments. I listened in detail too this afternoon and GS was a buffoon.
Although ND failed to answer pertinent questions he conducted this interview with aplomb!!
Maybe Green just wanted to see a half decent game of football for once?
loamfeet
Or maybe trying to absorb the atmosphere at a club that has won a real trophy.
neepheid says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 17:57
Or the PLC can sell the Ltd company to new owners, as it owns 100% of the shares. Meaning it could sell the trading arm as a going concern which could then continue playing football.
Leaving the PLC with the stadium and training ground etc. Which it could then lease to the new owners. Bringing in a regular income, with the property as a disposable asset if things go wrong. maybe with a view to selling those to the Ltd company at a later date if and when the new owners can afford them.
I see “Rangers men” buying the club from RIFC PLC some time in the not too distant future. However not necessarily with the property they trade from.
Maybe Green wanted to be noticed, talked about and to give the impression he gives a toss about Scottish football. Which he doesn’t.
madbhoy24941 says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 17:42
9 0 Rate This
… We should have a debate but it should revolve around how to make that happen!
———–
Bravo madbhoy, well said. But to be honest, I welcomed Big Pink’s intervention.
On your constructive stance, I’ve just watched a sporting triumph by Andy Murray where there was a crucial video decision on matchpoint. If David Ferrer had won there would have been no arguments as it was such a close match. For Murray though, it meant he saved a matchpoint – since his ball was in – and he went on to win the third-set in a tie-break (which raises him to nr. 2 in the world!).
The video challenge system would be perfect for football. Celtic could have challenged the penalty decision today, if such a system was in place. St Mirren could perhaps have challenged the first-half decision too. If rugby and cricket can do it …
chipm0nk says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 11:08
As such, I believe the prospectus was deliberately misleading. If that is the case then they raised tens of millions of pounds based on a document which was at best disingenuous.
=======
neepheid says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 12:04
chipm0nk
Here’s what the Prospectus actually said-
“The Company plans to use the money raised from the Placing to improve the infrastructure of the Club.
In particular, the Directors have identified:
• upgrades to Ibrox Stadium (approximately £5.5 million);
• acquisition and development of land assets adjacent to the stadium (approximately £4.5 million);
• other identified projects which could result in additional revenue generating activities
(approximately £3.0 million); and
• general working capital purposes.”
The fourth bullet is the “get out of jail free” card. Basically they can do what they like with the money, and keeping the company going has to be top priority.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Sorry Guys
There`s a fatal flaw in the IPO comments
It reads as if the people floating RIFC will be around to cash in on the benefit of any capital investment
They will not .These guys are Spivs. All of them. Spending capex is never on their agenda. It conflicts with the basic in out principle that brought them to Glasgow in the first place
These guys will be gone as soon as they optimise their profit
They will only spend capital if not doing so puts them in jail for breaking the law.
So what this tripe in the IPO Prospectus really means is probably
“ All the free cash from the IPO is spoken for”
“The warchest is empty” until we get to the SPL”
Unless of course
“You fans dig deep for next seasons STs at a much higher figure then the rest of the league”
Nope
Some grandiose drawings may be flashed around
But make no mistake
No serious work will be done to upgrade Ibrox while Spivs are in charge
Bears
You have been warned
I think it is safe to assume that Charles Green would not have been at that game if it was not being televised.
goosygoosy says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 20:16
I understand what you are saying and have no issue with it.
Consider this.
If the PLC, or at least the main players, can recover anything they “invested” in the first place, maybe by selling the trading arm as a going concern, then they have Ibrox Stadium, Murray Park, Edminston House and the Albion Car Park all effectively for nothing. Not a bad arrangement.
That’s ignoring the money that Charles Green (et al) have already paid themselves and still stand to get through bonuses, fees for finding investors etc.
I would also add that the “institutional investors” will have had some nice tax benefits because of the nature of the business, as confirmed in the prospectus.
Bottom line, I think we agree that the current set-up is not intended as a long term plan for Rangers Ltd, the actual football club. It is a way for some people to make a respectable profit, which will effectively come from the Rangers support.
chipm0nk says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 20:57
Bottom line, I think we agree that the current set-up is not intended as a long term plan for Rangers Ltd, the actual football club. It is a way for some people to make a respectable profit, which will effectively come from the Rangers support.
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Spot on
Just heard Neil Lennon comments on the ref today,is he drawing Mr Lunny out,whats the odds here
Wonderfully refreshing honesty from Stephen Thompson on Sportscene, he’s admitted his team mate dived, and the ref had a Madden
Flocculent Apoidea says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 19:59
19 0 i Rate This
Maybe Green wanted to be noticed, talked about and to give the impression he gives a toss about Scottish football. Which he doesn’t.
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In my humble opinion FA has got it in one.
Green wants to ‘do a deal’ on Scottish football with PL so he appears on all our screens having had his PR guys speak to Chick etc beforehand to prepare the ground. He even manages to bump into Billy Dodds in the gents at half time apparently with Billy dutifully reporting back to Richard Gordon on BBC radio.
One thing Green treating the Bears as fools with his stunts but I had hoped for better on here.
thereek says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 22:42
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Flocculent Apoidea says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 19:59
19 0 i Rate This
Maybe Green wanted to be noticed, talked about and to give the impression he gives a toss about Scottish football. Which he doesn’t.
~~~~~~~~~~
In my humble opinion FA has got it in one.
Green wants to ‘do a deal’ on Scottish football with PL so he appears on all our screens having had his PR guys speak to Chick etc beforehand to prepare the ground. He even manages to bump into Billy Dodds in the gents at half time apparently with Billy dutifully reporting back to Richard Gordon on BBC radio.
One thing Green treating the Bears as fools with his stunts but I had hoped for better on here.
=======================================
I don’t know why Green was at the game today but I’d bet he didn’t speak to Peter Lawell(except maybe to just say hello,whatever).Lawell isn’t daft and would not allow himself to be used in Charlies publicity drive.
Charlie though,will be delighted to have been seen in the same company as the CEO of the biggest,richest ,most successful club in Scotland.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 23:01
Charles Green is a megalomaniac.
On the events of the last 24 hours, what Cosgrove was attempting to do was draw Speirs out. Speirs was alleging that not to invited TRFC into an SPL 2 would be anti-TRFC prejudice.
Cosgrove was wanting to know the names of all those who in the opinion of SPeirs should be invited into SPL2, because in his view, and that of many others, there are 20 clubs above TRFC who are more eligible than TRFC to be invited. Should Speirs have placed TRFC in the top 10 invitees, that would have ended the charade and shown that all Speirs is interested in is TRFC back in the top flight asap. That is despite the evidence that in an SPL 2, TRFC would clearly struggle; what should Scottish football then do if, having been invited into SPL 2, TRFC fails to get promoted, or worse, ends up in one of the relegation places?
My second observation is in relation to some financial figures thrown up on here last night re TRFC’s finances. It is quite clear that the company continues to burn £2.5M per calendar month and that, allied to the payment of the football debts, must leave it at the end of March with significantly less than £10M in the bank, perhaps £8-9M at best.
Season ticket renewal time is approaching but even if they sell the same number of tickets for next season at a 20% increase on last year, all of the evidence suggests TRFC would simply run out of money towards the end of this calendar year, even with the naming rights money and the sponsorship cash from the two shirt sponsors (and the money from the friendly with Linfield).
A significant injection of new cash would therefore be required. That is at best unlikely. So in the meantime there is some naked cost cutting with the suspension of playing and management staff, some of which appears at best to be on dubious grounds, none of which disciplinary issues are likely to be resolved soon.
Finally, as with Craig Whyte, the most instructive thing any of us can do in terms of looking to the future actions of Charles Green is to look to the past actions of Charles Green during his sojourn in Sheffield. That tells you all you need to know.
He is running out of room to manoeuvre, he always thought/hoped that Scottish football would fast track his team back after 1 season’s “penance” but that is simply not going to be the case. If he can’t make a quick buck and get away, he is likely simply to get away as the ship is clearly sinking.
As someone on here remarked yesterday, there is a lot of anger and bitterness amongst football fans in Scotland. Most of that emanates from the Rangers’ debacle and the tactics of Green and the club’s supporters have clearly been to make sure that, if they go down, they take as many clubs with them by hook or by crook, but mainly by crook.
Rangers are in the process of being liquidated, don’t let anyone try to persuade you otherwise because that is a fact. Check out @RFCCreditors on Twitter.
Once that fact is clearly understand, the process of league reconstruction should be able to be implemented without controversy.
barcabhoy says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 18:19
[ TSFM Edit: This is simply trolling. Please keep your personal animosities away from here.]
torrejohnbhoy says:
Sunday, March 31, 2013 at 23:01
[ TSFM Edit: Again, this is just trolling. ]
There’s a lot of talk by the cognoscenti of exciting finishes provided by a league programme which includes a split towards the end of the league campaign. Generally these exciting times are referred to as Helicopter Sundays.
In the 15 years of SPL so far, there have been only 5 helicopter Sundays, as follows:.
Heli Years Winners and Margin
2002/3 R by 1 goal,
2004/5 R by 1 point,
2007/8, C by 3 points,
2008/9 R by 4 points,
2010/11 R by 1 point.
Only two others were anyway close,
1998/99 R by 6 points,
2006/07 C by 8 points
Six were won in a canter, some before the split.
1999/2000 R by 21 points.
2000/01 C by 15
2001/02 C by 18
2003/04 C by 17
2005/06 C by 17 from Hearts
2011/12 C by 20
Celtic have won the SPL 7 times by an average of just under 13 points, xRFC 7 times by an average just under 6 points. So much for the split and exciting finishes.
Looking at these statistics, maybe LNS was right that RFC (IL) gained no sporting advantage.. Whether or not he is competent to judge, or if it’s within his remit, is another question. Also if I supported xRFC I’d wonder why if there was no advantage, D.Murray beggared (typographical error) the old club and a chunk of Scottish football for no good reason.
Against that, it could be strongly argued that without the taxpayer and banking assistance to the point of insolvency and taxpayer bail out, xRFC would have won no trophies at all, so they did gain competitive advantage. Those taking this view are as qualified as, and maybe more so than, Lord Nimmo-Smith and associates.
Whatever way we look at it, splitting leagues does not come even close to guaranteeing excitement to the end of a league season. Why don’t we just play each other twice in the league, and demand honest competition? Where there’s a will….
Could it be W. Plonker?
Scottc
Scotland ‘s top three men in football try to come up with a plan for league reconstruction.
Every picture tells a story eh?
Charles Green. Sevco’s saviour,honest, straight talking Yorkshire man? Naw. April Fool.
Slim @ 23:21
On the criteria that the SPL would use wrt drawing up a list of clubs to invite to a prospective SPL2, Rangers would be at the top of the list.
The most powerful individual behind that prioritisation would be Peter Lawwell.
Your point would be relevant if it had been stated that meritocracy were to be used in forming a list, it hasn´t and your point isn´t relevant.
If the 12/12/18 fails and SPL2 by invite is proposed, instead of concentrating your (collectivelly) ire towards David Longmuir, look towards Mr.Lawell as to who is helping to drive the process.
Too many green seats, too much infectious apathy is not wanted as it´s bad for business.
So PL will do what´s best for the PLC.
If football was a sport then much of what is said on here would be more relevant.
It isn´t, it´s about numbers and the Financial Gravy Train is THE most important issue for those involved.
The governing bodies who lack leadership.
The clubs who have their own selfish agendas.
The players who don´t work hard enough.
The media who fail to address the real issues.
Are they worth it ?
Or should we the support force a business to convert back to a sport ?
greenockjack says:
Monday, April 1, 2013 at 07:35
0 0 Rate This
Slim @ 23:21
————
Morning Jock, or perhaps, good evening.
I agree with your second part about sport taking a back seat to financial interests these days, but where are you getting your info on PL? Where are the facts to back up your theory?
It is, of course, pre-12 noon on April 1.
DP
No sources, no documentary evidence but do you think a prospective SPL2 would be in the offing if Celtic/Peter Lawwell didn´t want/approve it ?
Yes or No ?
Furthermore, an SPL2 by invite that would have one main objective.
greenockjack says:
Monday, April 1, 2013 at 08:08
0 0 Rate This
DP
No sources, no documentary evidence but do you think a prospective SPL2 would be in the offing if Celtic/Peter Lawwell didn´t want/approve it ?
Yes or No ?
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PL, unlike other chairmen, has been very quiet and made very few statements. His silence seems to me to have more to do with not wanting to take advantage of the demise of his team’s once-influential rivals or stir up tension in Glasgow. But I’ve no dea what Mr Lawell thinks about 12-12-18 or SPL2. I’m not sure he or anyone else from Celtic feel the need to get overly involved in the politics of the situation since, with the OF now deid, and CG’s newly re-named company facing years to reach anything near SPL standard, Celtic look good for Europe every year and sit in an SPL in which they can ‘risk’ fielding more young Scots and youth players. If anything, the club could reduce ticket prices and expenditure on players.
By the way, I’m not a Celtic supporter.
willmacufree says:
Monday, April 1, 2013 at 02:12
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The SPL has 12 teams, how does Rangers coming 2nd many times indicate that LNS could have been right and that no sporting advantage was gained? What about the teams below them that also couldn’t afford to buy better players but decided to pay tax instead?
They gained a sporting advantage, just because they couldn’t utilise it against one of those teams does not mean it didn’t exist.
I have to say that if the SPL2 by invitation idea goes ahead next season, then greenockjack is spot on with his comments. Such an outcome can only happen with the complicity of CFC. And sadly, it is just about money. I fear that a judgement has been made by the CFC Board that they will gain more than they will lose financially by accelerating TRFC through the leagues.
They will lose me and my money, of course, after 55 years, but I know that doesn’t matter to the money men. However there is more to life than money, and you cannot put a price on what Celtic stand to lose in terms of their own integrity if they help to push this through. This shabby little fix may mark a very sad end to 125 years of Celtic being a bit better than that.
Good post DP I find the part about stirring up tension with a certain group very poignant we have seen it all for ourselves. Lawell and Celtic do well to remain on the periphery on this, if only just to save some poor innocent people from being hurt. Sad but very true.
willmacufree says:
Monday, April 1, 2013 at 02:12
Looking at these statistics, maybe LNS was right that RFC (IL) gained no sporting advantage.. Whether or not he is competent to judge, or if it’s within his remit, is another question.
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LNS is no more qualified than I or the man in the street to decide whether Rangers derived a sporting advantage or not. What he is legally qualified to do is make decisions on the evidence submitted to him, as are his two colleagues. No evidence was submitted to the tribunal by the SPL on this issue, as far as I am aware, so it was impossible for LNS to uphold a charge which relied on sporting advantage having been gained.
It really is that simple – As to whether the SPL are qualified to recognise sporting advantage that IMO is a moot point. One thing is certain is that they made no attempt to produce evidence to support that it had taken place which left their case holed beneathed the waterline.
It might pain some posters to accept that legally Rangers are entitled to be regarded as innocent until proven guilty and as no evidence was supplied and the case against was so poorly researched, formulated and presented then they were never going to be found guilty of anything that counted.
And by that I mean the likes of being invited into SPL2 – Obviously the cards have been marked for some time by the suits and attacking LNS merely plays into the hands of the not-so shadowy figures pulling the strings of Scottish Football. IMO that doesn’t include PL and I won’t change my view until actual evidence is produced that stands up to scrutiny. Meanwhile PL will continue doing what he is brilliant at which is ensuring that Celtic is run in a professional and financially robust manner for the benefit of its fans by providing top level football entertainment.
DP @ 08:45
I can´t agree and indeed think it naive to consider that PL/Celtic have been sitting on their hands letting everyone else push the aganda/s.
Firstly it´s their business to look out for their PLC and what will effect their bottomline.
Secondly they are the most powerful club within the organisation that would have to instigate the moves towards the proposed SPL2 by invite.
The view from the directors box at Parkhead during many SPL games has been of many more green seats than normal.
It´s fair to say that the general economic situation will have been a factor but also fair to say that an apathy has set in, one which has been as apparent on the pitch as off it.
This apathy is due mostly to having won the League title before a ball is kicked.
The last big change in approach that came from the Celtic boardroom was when attendences dropped by some 20% during the Tony Mowbrary era.
The club went on the attack (off-field), creating a siege mentality for the support to rally behind.
However you´ll note that the 20% haven´t came back and this is the danger and what motivates PL into supporting getting Rangers back asap.
That when the supporter decides to go, it´s extremely difficult to entice him back.
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 1, 2013 at 09:06
______________________________________________________
Rangers or whatever their name were found guilty as charged.
myohmy1 says:
Monday, April 1, 2013 at 06:47
Scottc
Scotland ‘s top three men in football try to come up with a plan for league reconstruction.
Every picture tells a story eh?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, indeed!
On Saturday, Neil Doncaster went to great pains to stress that getting money down to the lower leagues was vitally important to support, particularly, the relegated SPL team. That is why he stressed that the current league reconstruction proposal had to be accepted NOW; this year. What I could not understand then, was
a) if it is vitally important now, why will it not still be important next year and why have the various ‘thought leaders’ in Scottish football not found it to be important for the last ten years? and
b) why, if it is so important, can the SPL not just vote to give more money to the lower leagues?
@greenockjack and @neepheid
You both seem sure about what’s going on in the Celtic boardroom. I’ll settle for naive rather than speculate. The attaction of this particular forum is that people tend to focus on fact rather than fiction. You may both be correct, of course, but I’d rather wait until I hear it from the horse’s mouth 😉
By the way, I’m convinced that dwindling attendences have as much to do with the lack of promotion/relegation drama (the main interest and excitement of the EPL right now is at the bottom of the league), too many repetitive fixtures against the same opposition, and ticket prices.
@carlislecelt
Cheers, I grew up in Glasgow’s East End during the darkest days of OF poison. Put me right aff fitba, so to speak. If there’s one thing that will drive decent people and families with kids away from Glasgow football it’s a return of those ugly OF tensions of the past. It’s gone, may it never return.