How Celtic Turned the Tables on their Glasgow Rivals by Stephen O Donnell:
A Review by Auldheid.
Stephen’s previous publication, Tangled Up In Blue provided a detailed history of the rise and fall of Glasgow Rangers FC PLC from 1872 until their demise in 2012. Clearly a lot of research had been done to cover the period in such detail and his follow up publication Fergus McCann v David Murray etc carries on with that tradition. It is a smorgasbord of a book with many different issues succulently served up in its 350 pages.
It tells of events under David Murray’s tenure at Ibrox which began in November 1988 and ended in May 2011 when he left Craig Whyte holding the rope that became a noose just under a year later in April 2012 when Whyte was found guilty of bringing Scottish football into disrepute whilst Murray claimed he was duped.
Readers of the book will come to the conclusion that if anyone did the duping it was David Murray and it wasn’t just Craig Whyte he duped but Scotland’s national game. If ever Murray were to be tried for crimes against Scottish football then this book would be cited as evidence.
It was against the background of David Murray’s tenure at Rangers that Fergus McCann first arrived on the scene in April 1989 with proposals to inject £17M of New Capital into Celtic that the Celtic Board rejected as per minutes:
Proposals put forward by Fergus McCann to provide finance for various capital expenditures were unanimously rejected by the Directors’; and then again in August of the same year: ‘Mr McCann’s latest proposals were discussed and it was hoped that this was a final discussion on the subject. Latest proposals were rejected by Directors.
Fergus later returned to the fray and the chapter on how he was successful in ousting the Board in 1994 is an informative read, particularly if in that period single parenting cares took precedence over caring for Celtic.
I was amused reading the tale of discontent aimed at the old Board after a Ne’erday 4-2 defeat to Rangers in January 1994 when a bemused Walter Smith was watching the hostility aimed at the Celtic Directors box, one fan in the main stand screamed at him, ‘What are you looking at, it’s got fuck all to do with you.”
For me anyway there were a few “not a lot of people know that” moments like that in the book.
The contrast between Fergus McCann’s and David Murray’s style was immediately evident, but the impact of Fergus’s shorter tenure from 1994 to 1999 became more than evident after McCann left and the author does not miss the role servile journalists played and hit the wall for turning Celtic supporters against McCann during his tenure, whilst they dined on Murray’s succulent lamb. A role that in the end helped bring about Rangers end, but not the culture of servility when covering the activity of Rangers FC PLC successor club from 2012.
Sky TV get it in the neck too and if David Murray played the part of Colonel Mustard in killing Scottish football through his financial recklessness and duplicity, Sky are the lead pipe whose toxicity still dictates the nature of the current state of play.( I said it was a Smorgasbord)
Fergus kind of did what it said on the tin. In his case a tin of nippy sweeties, but it was interesting to read about his early years when even then he was described as “a cheeky upstart” but his “idiosyncrasies” and appearance under a bunnet, disguised a sharp if impatient business mind where for him getting straight to the point was akin to procrastination.
So too has Murray’s early years been covered including his rejected attempt to buy Ayr Utd, a rejection by Ayr Directors, who considered Murray was too hot headed and most volatile, that infuriated him.
Their conclusion that he was trying to get Ayr United on the cheap with only £125k of his own money involved was an indicator of his strategy of using other people’s money to invest and not his own. Other people including unsuspecting taxpayers to a tune of £50 million or so.
As you follow the narrative of both Fergus McCann and David Murray and the events that surrounded them, you end up wondering how so many could have been fooled for so long by one guy, but when you have the Scottish media in your pocket it was difficult to separate fact from fiction during the tenure of both. You also wonder how Murray remains a Knight of the Realm since.
Luckily for Celtic Fergus knew business fact from PR fiction and avoided the illusion in which Celtic’s main rivals continue to struggle to this day.
The great pity is that few, if any of the Scottish main stream media will even give this book a mention, because if you don’t write about it, it never happened, except it did and this book is proof.
I therefore recommend anyone interested in the future of our game buys it and asks, is it not now time to revisit the purpose of Scottish football?
Auldheid
macfurgly 25th August 2020 at 23:15
'..What’s the source?
I can’t find anything on their web pages.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
You might be interested in this, macfurgly:
I received this reply from the Council of Europe Committee to my query about Lord Ffoulkes' upcoming inquiry into 'Football in Europe':( sadly , not from Ms Ivi-Triin Odrats!)
"FASINO Roberto <roberto.fasino@coe.int> Thu, 27 Aug at 15:10
Dear Mr ….
Thank you for your mail.
Lord Foulkes has been appointed rapporteur on “Football governance: business and values” and his currently preparing his report on this subject. Preparatory work and working documents are restricted and we cannot really provide information on our ongoing work.
However, basic information has already been made public by the rapporteur himself. In this respect, please find attached a link with a recent article posted by “The Scotsman”:
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/former-hearts-chairman-george-foulkes-lead-inquiry-running-european-football-2951325
I hope this will be helpful to you
Best regards,
Roberto Fasino
Head of Secretariat, Committee on Culture, Science, Education and Media
Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe
And my reply (this evening)
Dear Mr Fasino,
I'm extremely grateful for your reply.
I had actually seen the article in "The Scotsman" , but it was not attributed to any 'source'- and when it comes to newspaper journalism in Scotland, I have found that it can be useful to check the provenance of any story!
When I checked the P.A.C.E website I could find no reference to Lord Ffoulke's projected 'Football Inquiry', so I thought I had better check by emailing.
Grazie tanto, .."
me
Slight aside…
Is the 'rookie, Ibrox PR guru' doing a bit of moonlighting?
That lad Maguire of ManU / England just continues to keep digging a hole for himself, and his 'story' changes on an hourly basis, it seems!
watcher 27th August 2020 at 14:42
‘…I still have not had a reply back regarding
my complaint about the BBC to Offcom. I send emails to them they do not reply.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
It’s a bit much if Ofcom don’t reply!
The email address of the OfCom director in Scotland is : glenn.preston@ofcom.org.uk
If you are sure that your emails were sent, and that there has been no reply that found its way into your spam box or whatever, why don’t you send him a simple, polite wee email telling him that your emails are not being acknowledged let alone answered, and asking whether he can do anything about it?
He (probably) won’t see your email himself, but one of his people will at least acknowledge it ,unless you’ve been a very bad boy and have been blacklisted! [ no, as a public body they cannot really or easily do that !]
If you don’t get a reasonable response within a reasonable time [ covid and all that] get your Westminster MP involved, by asking him/her to write on your behalf. That generally works.
( An experienced MP will get one of his office staff to fire off something like this:
‘ My constituent , ‘watcher’ of such and such an address, has told me that his emails to Ofcom are not even being acknowledged let alone substantively responded to.
I wonder would you be good enough to have the matter looked into , and let me know the result’
Such a letter ( or, these days, email) goes to the top of the heap! [ I know that, from personal experience as a chap who had often to deal with such letters from several MPs, and I don’t suppose that things have changed much in the years since]
John Clark 27th August 2020 at 21:38
macfurgly 25th August 2020 at 23:15
—————
Well done for getting a reply. It would appear that the PACE have started taking an interest in football and GF has been handed a seriously broad brief on the basis probably of his experience ay HMFC. Good luck with that one if UEFA, Man. City, PSG etc. are at odds with any recommendations. Worth a go I suppose, if they are serious.
StevieBC 27th August 2020 at 22:22
"Manchester United captain Harry Maguire told the BBC on Thursday that he feared for his life and thought he was being kidnapped as he was arrested by plainclothes police officers following a fracas on the Greek island of Mykonos."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Well, I ask, plainclothes polis attending a pub fight? Not hardly, (as John Wayne said a few times in some movie-was it 'True Grit'?)
I think I wouldn't be too ready to believe that!
But perhaps I'm too inclined to believe that the concept of 'policing by public consent ' is not terribly well understood on the 'Continent'.
That is, there is no notion of 'the friendly bobby' or 'if you want to know the time ask a policeman'.
And if guys in suits/tracky bottoms/jeans/ football tops or whatever turned up to deal with a pub fight and tried to 'arrest' me I think I might offer some resistance, even if they were shouting 'police!' in a foreign language ,or even in English!
We don't, and won't get to, know the truth of Harry Maguire's situation;
any more than we will get to know the full truth about the 'Rangers' saga and the cheating, lying sods in Scottish Football governance until, perhaps, the guilty sods are mouldering in their dishonourable graves, while panegyrics are uttered about how true and respectable and worthy persons they were and how faithfully and honestly they discharged their offices as guardians of the integrity of Scottish Football!
Makes me boke ( how do you spell that word?) to think of the crap that will appear in the 'obituaries' of those men! Fearful, timid, cowed weaklings without any sense of principle who failed to discharge their bounden duties and allowed the most monstrous sporting lie to be created, fostered and propagated.
Even now.
Aug 27, 2020
https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/crown-admits-malicious-prosecution-of-rangers-administrators
……………………
Aug 28, 2020
https://www.lawscot.org.uk/news-and-events/legal-news/rangers-administrators-lord-advocate-admits-malice/
…………..
We move on to Jan 2021
bordersdon 26th August 2020 at 23:58
Homunculus @ 18.83.
These are genuine questions. Not in any way trying to be provocative but as an innocent bystander just asking?
The thing is, they were clearly both up to their necks in it.
In what?
The Police have made an absolute mess of this and Crown Office haven't been much better.
What were the Police trying to do? A deliberate mess? COPFS ??
Everyone who has been investigated has walked away from it.
Surely everyone who has been charged/investigated has been admonished/found not guilty?
I'm confused. com!!
===========================================
1, Just one part. They sold the assets of a business in administration, or at least made an irrevocable deal to do so, prior to the CVA failing. They did not maximise the available amount for those assets, when the assets were sold they were actually sold to an entirely different business. They even brought the man in who was going to buy thee prior to the CVA failure making decisions about what was going to happen.
That's to say nothing of the various documents and even recordings which were made public.
I believe they were involved in a flawed administration right from the start, with a view to wiping out the Rangers' debts. The original intention was through administration, however in the end they failed and the club is being liquidated. All they could do was get the bulk of the assets out prior to that liquidation process.
2, I have made no comment on whether it was a deliberate mess or not, I have no idea. They did make a mess of it though. If I remember correctly they carried out an illegal search, which was at the very least incompetent.
3, I believe a person is only admonished if they plead or are found guilty, it is basically a warning not to do it again.
With regards someone being found not guilty, people are often found not guilty of something they have clearly done. It is absolutely up to the Crown to prove that someone is guilty. If they make mistakes and the evidence they are relying on cannot be adduced then they are likely to fail. They also cannot lead evidence that is prejudicial, so if someone has a lot of previous convictions for a similar offence they cannot lead that to the jury.
If a prosecution does not go ahead it is because Crown Office have decided that they do not have enough admissible evidence to secure a conviction. Or a cynic may suggest that they really don't want a few things coming out in open Court which would cause either them or the Police serious embarrassment.
John Clark 27th August 2020 at 23:54
StevieBC 27th August 2020 at 22:22
…
But perhaps I’m too inclined to believe that the concept of ‘policing by public consent ‘ is not terribly well understood on the ‘Continent’…
==================
Ooft JC!
… on the day that the Crown Office admitted ‘maliciously’ prosecuting 2 citizens: I don’t know what to think about our very own criminal, legal system. 🙁
I did watch the Maguire interview – with the sound off.
He couldn’t look the interviewer in the eye, and constantly looked down and to the side.
He shrugged a lot.
Doesn’t mean he’s guilty as hell of course – and can’t help thinking that if SAF was still manager:
&
Re: the just announced development of Edmiston House.
Specific details of funding are not mentioned – but I'd hazard a guess that it's a partnership with a third party:
i.e. it's not an RIFC/TRFC generated development.
Mibbees another company set up with those providing the funding…?
[IIRC, does the Ibrox lawyer Blair have personal links to the ownership of Edmiston House?]
Homunculus @ 11.25
—————————————————————–
Thanks for your further thoughts on this. I am still mystified why the police made such a hash of things (eg illegal search) and why the COPFS, in spite of the obvious weaknesses, decided to proceed leading to the humiliating apologies by the Lord Advocate!
On the relationship between the Crown Office and the Police, I give you an extract from a speech[ "The Apex Scotland Annual Lecture by the Lord Advocate, James Wolffe QC on 5 September 2017.] in which the speaker , in describing that relationship, quotes Lord Gill (former Lord President):
"Lord Gill summarised this in the following terms: “In the Scottish system of criminal investigation, the procurator fiscal directs the investigation and not the police. In the early stages of an investigation, the police almost always act on their own initiative; but it is their duty to report on their investigation to the procurator fiscal and to act upon his further instructions.”
It now transpires that "the Lord Advocate has now admitted that the Crown, under his predecessor Frank Mulholland QC, acted unlawfully during a substantial part of the proceedings"
I find it puzzling, therefore, that "Police Scotland has made no similar admission"
That would suggest that the Police believe and can substantiate that belief that all the actions they took in investigating and collecting evidence as to the facts relating to an alleged crime or crimes were wholly legitimate, and taken under the direction of the Crown Office: no malice here, mate!
Intriguing.
John Clark 28th August 2020 at 16:19
================================
Or they have decided to make no comment at this stage as the Chief Constable is also being sued.
StevieBC 28th August 2020 at 14:33
‘..[IIRC, does the Ibrox lawyer Blair have personal links to the ownership of Edmiston House?]
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
A wee look at Companies House info:
Edmiston House Community Interest Company was incorporated on 20 November 2015, number SC520806
Its community interest statement has this:
” The Company’s activities will provide benefit to supporters and followers of The Rangers Football Club, Glasgow, by financing, or part financing the refurbishment and redevelopment of the subjects known as Edmiston House and other subjects within the vicinity of Ibrox Stadium…..This will benefit the community by saving an unused building that is falling into a state of disrepair from becoming derelict. This benefits the community as the renovated building becomes a local amenity, and improves the appearance of the local area for residents.
While the restoration is ongoing, jobs will be created as firms are engaged to carry out the upgrading and redecoration of the building…”
The statement is signed by one Robert Marshall, and the point of contact is one James Blair of Anderson Strathearn.”
The company submitted ‘accounts for dormant company’ on 02 September 2019, and on 06 January 2020 there was a ‘confirmation’ statement, with no updates.
One Greg Robertson Marshall is a person with significant control. He appears to be the only Director.
A point of contact for Companies House is James Blair, of Anderson Strathearn LLP (Edinburgh).
Of course, a community interest company is a ‘not-for-profit ‘enterprise. If the Company makes any surplus funds these, it says, will be donated to the Rangers Former Players Benevolent Club.
It is all fairly ordinary , but I wonder: does ‘refurbishment and redevelopment’ include ‘demolition’?
Thanks for that JC: I vaguely remember that there was discussion on SFM a while ago about this 'CIC' entity.
I thought they were going to use the publicly owned space across the road from the stadium, (for which they are paying peppercorn rent), as a fans' zone.
John Clark 28th August 2020 at 17:28
I suspect those are Robert Marshall, who owns The Louden Pub and his son Greg who is employed by Rangers as their Supporters Liaison Officer.
The club have apparently submitted their plans for demolition of the building.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-unveil-new-ibrox-fan-22593194
“The club are moving forward with plans to demolish Edmiston House, which sits behind the Copland Road stand.”
Homunculus 28th August 2020 at 18:17
‘..I suspect those are Robert Marshall, who owns The Louden Pub and his son Greg who is employed by Rangers as their Supporters Liaison Officer’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Thanks for that piece of info, Homunculus .
Looking at the Edmiston C.I.C’s Articles of Association we see this :
Objects, Powers and Limitation of Liability
Powers
As said before, I have never been in business and am not particularly clever: but applying my brain ( I am nota ‘bear’ like Winnie the Pooh, but I may be of ‘very little brain!’) as best I can I conclude this: The Edmiston CIC, under its Director(s) (who will of course be remunerated) can borrow money from anyone or any institution prepared to lend to it.
Would it be safe to speculate that the owner of the Louden bar might be a lender, on terms that include the rights to run such commercial operations as are carried out in the new premises and/or share (with other lenders) in the revenue brought in by the new facilities outlined in the statement– fanzone, concert venue and what-not?
I don’t imagine that that revenue would need to go to the Rangers Former Players benevolent company??
( I’m not having a go at ‘Rangers’ here: just genuinely curious as to how all that kind of thing works: who actually funds the demolition/refurbishment and who gets the ki pay-back?)
There must be a David Low type out there who could explain how these things work?
Homunculus 28th August 2020 at 18:17
John Clark 28th August 2020 at 17:28
……..
I take it the Close Brothers loan has been paid of as they held security over Edmiston house.
The Borrower will not. C. make directly or indirectly make application for planning permission in relation to the property or any part of it or.
" It is certainly reassuring that the Scottish courts have enough independence to allow a case against the head of the legal service, who is also a member of the Scottish Government and the First Minister's Cabinet ,and only now after eight years has the truth begun to emerge"
(from a piece in the 'Scotsman' today by John McLellan [former editor of 'The Scotsman" and Scottish Conservative Party media chief:]about the Crown Office's 'malicious prosecution' admission)
How good and right it would be if Scottish Football after 8 years of fostering and supporting the Big Lie that TRFC is RFC of 1872 would acknowledge their Big Lie, and take the necessary steps to restore truth and trust in the governance of the Sport.
[ McLellan speculates that the Crown Office admission was made is 'so that they could mediate an out-of-court settlement which would no doubt come with non-disclosure agreements.' ]
Cluster One 29th August 2020 at 10:40
'.I take it the Close Brothers loan has been paid of as they held security over Edmiston house.'
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Yes, Cluster One: that charge seems to have been satisfied as far back as 15th October 2018.
"Charge codeSC42 5159 0012
"Additional transactions filed against this charge
Type
Satisfaction of a charge (MR04)15 October 2018 View PDFfor Satisfaction of a charge (MR04) (1 page)"
Unless I missed it…
after the humiliating admission by the Crown Office to 'maliciously prosecuting' two individuals,
I've not read of any firings / resignations / suspensions at either the Crown Office or at Police Scotland.
To admit such incompetence and/or corruption in a Court of law would have been preceded by extremely, lengthy discussions.
Likewise, you would think that a suitable resignation(s) would have been announced immediately after that Court hearing?
It gives the impression that those responsible are still in positions of power – and potentially able to repeat their mistakes on other citizens.
Presumably there will be an inquiry – which will publish its report in a few years time…
The whole thing stinks.
StevieBC 29th August 2020 at 12:45
It's hardly a reliable source, but there are some quotes.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4632178/rangers-fraud-billy-boys-sectarian/
I'm guessing that if he, or anyone else, had been sacked over this it would have made the news.
John Clark 29th August 2020 at 11:42
Cluster One 29th August 2020 at 10:40
This does not yet appear to have been satisfied and clause 6.4 indicates permission needs to be granted by Close Bros for any planning application/development proposal to go forward.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC425159/filing-history/MzIyODM3MDI4NWFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0
The commentator on BBC Radio Scotland just mentioned that Rangers went into 'administration'. Is it BBC policy not to say 'liquidation'?
gunnerb 29th August 2020 at 17:10
'edmiston house 'charge'
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Thank you for the correction, an important correction, gunnerb.
I had gone straight to look at the 'satisfied' charges and saw that Edmiston House had had a 'charge' on it in 2018 [charge ..12} which had indeed been satisfied.
It never occurred to me to think that TRFC borrowed from Close Bros again in 2019 putting the same assets in hock ( a bit like me taking my dad's good suit to the pawnshop more than once!!)
(
jimbo 29th August 2020 at 18:54
“The commentator on BBC Radio Scotland just mentioned that Rangers went into ‘administration’. Is it BBC policy not to say ‘liquidation’?”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Yes, it is.
The BBC were ordered by the then BBC Trust not to use language which would suggest that Rangers FC plc had had to surrender its share in the then SPL , and thereby lost its membership of the SFA and its entitlement to participate in Scottish professional football.
It is an absolute truth that Rangers Football Club plc went into Administration and never came out of it. It went into Liquidation, where it still is.
To their eternal shame the BBC hierarchy knuckled under to orders .
They shouted the Pacific Quay equivalent of ‘Jawohl, mein Führer’, collectively clicked their heels and immediately set about fostering and propagating the manifestly absurd lie created by the 5-Way Agreement, and ordering ( under pain of disciplinary procedures ) that none of their sports commentators should ever mention the fact that RFC plc no longer existed ( as even James Traynor headlined) because it had entered Liquidation, or even discuss or allow discussion as to whether TRFC of 2012 foundation could be entitled to market itself (falsely) as being 140 years older than it actually is.
Currently, on BBC radio 4, the political analysts and commentators make much of Donald Trump as being a liar.
If they looked at the crew in Pacific Quay they would see that many of their colleagues are more dangerous liars than any Trump.
Trump is, as a politician, kind of expected to lie.
The BBC is not expected to lie, or help others to lie.
Especially not in a matter helping a new football club live a sporting lie.
What might such people NOT do when ordered to lie about really fundamental matters? The same as their counterparts in totalitarian or would-be totalitarian states?
What else, but do what they’re told, regardless of how untrue?
Maintanance and repair
After writing a long post and my comment appears to be spam and i deleated the whole thing by mistake.
gunnerb 29th August 2020 at 17:10
John Clark 29th August 2020 at 11:42
Cluster One 29th August 2020 at 10:40
Feck…
It shall be an obligation to the debtor
To maintain the security subjects in good and sufficiant repair to the resonable satisfaction to the creditor.
…………..
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1299810480278646784/photo/1
……..
Are the ibrox club trying to pass off a makeover for an 8 year club 150 celebrations as a Newbuild for the celebrations and not just part of their obligations as a secured loan to maintain the security subjects in good and sufficiant repair to the resonable satisfaction to the creditor.
Looks like another con job from ibrox to me.
Cluster One 29th August 2020 at 22:28
‘..After writing a long post and my comment appears to be spam and i deleated the whole thing by mistake.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Join the club, Cluster One!
It’s a regular occurrence with me: one false key stroke and f..k it, you’ve got to start again!
As to your post, I simply assert that what we have is an eight year old football club trying desperately to claim the cachet of being the most whatever club of 1872 origins.
TRFC is , what, 8 years old. It did not exist prior to 2012.
Its ‘holding company’, RIFC plc, knows, I believe, that it went to the market on an absolutely misleading Prospectus.
It is desperate, absolutely desperate, that its pretence to be the Rangers of my grandfather’s day should be accepted by more than the lying BBC and the SMSM generally.
And I suggest that the majority of those who were supporters of the Rangers of my grandfather’s day know that there is no such thing as ‘continuity Rangers’.
Jabba, for one, told them that on Liquidation day!
John Clark 30th August 2020 at 00:07
Join the club, Cluster One!
It’s a regular occurrence with me: one false key stroke and f..k it, you’ve got to start again!
……………….
Having a small refreshment never helps the cause either.
The BBC is merely an establishment mouthpiece. Any reasonable and moderately intelligent person, of whatever colour, creed or politics could easily discern that there are actual lies being propagated via the national broadcaster’s airwaves when it comes to Rangers, the Scottish government and Jeremy Corbyn.
From a football perspective, the lie is much harder to sell, since it is delivered defensively from the back foot, and only Rangers fans have an interest in buying into it.
In the case of the other, more existential examples, lies are delivered in attack mode. Much easier to sell.
In any case, we don’t need a stance which necessarily reinforces our own narrative. Just the bloody truth, and more importantly, the WHOLE truth.
The BBC will never deliver that. There was a time I believed they did. I was mistaken.
Big Pink 30th August 2020 at 10:50
They really only need the Rangers support to "buy into it", or at least pretend to themselves that they believe the lies. That is where the money and the support comes from.
In fact there is an argument to suggest that other people not doing so is helpful, as it builds an "everyone else is against is" mentality.
After this amount of time has passed attitudes are pretty much entrenched. People believe (or choose to believe) what they, or the group they associate with, believe. It is too far down the line for most people to change.
The next generation, for the most part, will believe what they are raised to believe. Few will do their own research and go against the grain.
You may be correct Homunculus, but if so, that is a pretty blinkered view of the world they hold.
I agree it is annoying to hear fantasy repeated as truth, but it is far more annoying to hear folk insistently and relentlessly challenge the fantasy.
There are no winners in that discourse, only the irritation of those who know the truth, and the outrage of those who need the Earth to be flat.
Big Pink 30th August 2020 at 21:14
It is interesting that you use the example of people needing the Earth to be flat.
I think this quote is an interesting and relevant one.
"Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe"
Homunculus 31st August 2020 at 12:13
"Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And ,of course, some people know the truth but consciously lie!
Football punters who lie are one thing:
governance bodies and national broadcasters which lie are quite another, far more pernicious matter!
Big Pink @ 10.50 et al
“The BBC is merely an establishment mouthpiece…”
… and the rest of the Scottish media and establishments, which are driven by a century old (try 16th) anti -Catholic narrative (particularly vitriolic, in more recent times, via The Church of Scotland in the 1920s) – which, in spite of the odd inclusion tokenism wheeled out under the (dis)guise of tolerance and equality, will never change.
I accept that (although I do hope that the Res 12 guys will prevail regarding the football side of things, and believe that the Sevco financial ‘**** will really hit the fan’ should Celtic win 10IAR).
On their role in the WATP supremacy ideology, the BBC and others views are not, in their eyes (!) blinkered – as they have 20/20 vision.
However, on a more optimistic note regarding a fairer (Scottish) society, as my Latin teacher (Tam Lavelle) would say:-
“Dum Spiro Spero”
bect67 @ 14.55
—————————————————–
Oh dearie me! No wonder most of the non Celtic posters have deserted this site?
I would also love the RES 12 guys to prevail but Celtic PLC will not let that happen! And more importantly I would love to see all clubs, the BB feckin C, the SMSM et al recognise that the Rangers of old are no more but nae chance. Mammon prevails!
Whether CFC win 10IAR or TRFC* win 1IAR I really don't care because as I have said many many times Scottish football as a competition has been fecked for many years and I see no way out of it. Back to Mammon I guess!
bordersdon 31st August 2020 at 22:49
bect67 @ 14.55
That is a subject that is beyond belief to the people and appeals to they are is/as bad as each other brigade.
There are none so blind than those that will not see.
I suggest we on SFM start playing the man and not the ball in certain circumstances …makes me so sad to say this.
an athiest
Bordersdon,
I think you may have a good point there. Celtic could have beaten Ferencvaros if Lennon had sent his mam on.
OK, I I'll get my coat of many colours.
I think most people probably saw this coming.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18689137.ex-rangers-ceo-charles-green-seeks-damages-significant-losses-fraud-prosecution/
FORMER Rangers chief executive Charles Green is to pursue "significant losses" after Scotland's most senior law officer admitted malicious prosecution of the former administrators of Rangers in connection with the collapsed club fraud case.
Mr Green says the public apology will come from the Lord Advocate claiming he too should never have been prosecuted.
A letter sent to Mr Green’s solicitors, Jones Whyte LLP of Glasgow, adds that damages will be paid.
The letter is addressed to Jones Whyte and is from The Scottish Government Legal Directorate, Litigation Division.
It is headed 'Charles Green v The Chief Constable. Police Scotland and the Lord Advocate.'
…
Homunculus 1st September 2020 at 12:58
I think most people probably saw this coming.
…………….
Only the ones paying attention.
The ibrox fan base were lead to believe the right one’s were caught and would pay for the death of their club. But one by one they all walk away with millions, and with each one that is granted an apology and compensation, who do the ibrox fan base look to for the cause of death of their club?
Cluster One 1st September 2020 at 19:32
====================================
Some of the theories are bonkers, though I think a few realise it was just poor work by Police Scotland and Crown Office.
Apparently if HMRC had just accepted what they were offered in the first place then none of this would have happened and everyone would be better off.
It's like an exercise in missing the point.
The late Lord Denning , I remember, once said something about it being better that innocent men should be convicted than that the judicial processes should be questioned.
Perhaps ( and here I amuse myself, idly speculating on no basis whatsoever) there could ,conceivably and philosophically speaking ,be some people who would espouse as a principle that it is better that the public purse pay the fortunes in damages occasioned by the engineering of the collapse of cases rather than that the civil polity be disturbed by possibly guilty men actually being found guilty, when there would be no chance of 'non-disclosure' agreements?
Naw, that couldn't happen; not in this country.
I for one believe that the goings on with Duff and Phelps, Sevco 5088 and Sevco Scotland all smelled a bit fishy.
However, I am also sure that Phil Mac's big hero 'General Ashley' will have pulled of similar wheezes in building his business empire which includes taking over distressed companies.
Why would one such cowboy be seen by some as a 'hero' and others playing the same kind of game as 'villians'?
The facts are however is that even if the administration and liquidation of Rangers doesn't feel right, no one from the Police, The Crown, the IPA has slam dunked any particular wrong doing.
As discussed on here not so long ago, something can come across as wholly wrong but still be, having undergone scrutiny, technically quite correct and acceptable in the eyes of the law or accepted practice.
Some lucky people will end up getting paid compensation, others will continue to collect a six figure salary.
It is still all very murky in the land Scottish Football.
The only sure thing is that Rangers were liquidated and as such the club died, but yet the footballing authorities have never had the gumption to tell the truth regards the status of the club currently playing at Ibrox.
Bordersdon
I share your frustration, although I’m not so sure that shoehorning a wider conspiracy into the Duff and Phelps case does any more than raise the odd eyebrow.
The competition issue to which you refer is real though. The problem is that football is now a collection of self interested money making franchises and no longer the association of enthusiastic interdependent clubs seeking sporting competition.
I think we will get back to that someday, but not until the public are so sick of the monotony of the one or two horse race that the financial gravy train is derailed.
Then maybe sporting principles can be applied once more and measures put in place to make it impossible for the cycle to begin again.
wottpi 1st September 2020 at 22:45
“..The only sure thing is that Rangers were liquidated and as such the club died, but yet the footballing authorities have never had the gumption to tell the truth regards the status of the club currently playing at Ibrox”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
And those are simple facts, not matters of opinion. That’s the killer truth.
I note incidentally that the new Head of the BBC , (not-yet ‘Sir’) Tim Davie “spent his first day meeting staff at BBC Scotland in Glasgow.” (“The Scotsman”, today)
In his message to all staff he said “….a BBC for all….ensure that we deliver outstanding and unique value…..To do this we will need to keep reforming the BBC with urgency so that we are trusted, relevant…We are an organisation that matters, and your work is admired for its creative brilliance, outstanding journalism….”
I shall presently send a wee message to Mr Davie informing him of the failure of Pacific Quay to tell the truth about the Big Lie that TRFC is Rangers of 1872,
its insistence on fostering that untruth
and its steadfast refusal to allow that ‘Lie’ to be discussed on air by those who might wish to have the matter exposed.
I will let him know that quite a substantial section of the BBC audience in Scotland believe that an organisation which is prepared to lie in a matter of ‘Sport’ ( for heaven’s sake!) are inclined to believe that it would lie in more serious matters.
And once caught out in a lie and the defence of a lie, an organisation is forever suspect.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bigoted-hearts-fan-hurled-sectarian-22614023
FFS
Whatever next?
HS
wottpi 1st September 2020 at 22:45
I don't know anyone who considers Mike Ashley a "hero", his business practices seem to be appalling.
John Clark at 10.18
You could also ask about using taxpayers money to pay EBT tax dodgers. The response I got is that BBC are happy to let people look after their own tax affairs.
Higgy's Shoes 2nd September 2020 at 11:04
'..Whatever next?'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"..Sheriff Peter McCormack asked if it was possible one of the horses was a mare and the abuse was intended for the animal. Yates said: “It was ambiguous.”"
Good God Almighty!
Tell me please they were joking!
From The Daily Mail;
“(English) Premier League clubs will vote on Thursday on a curtailment plan to be used to determine final league positions if subsequent seasons are abandoned, Sportsmail has learned. The top-flight clubs want clarity on the issue and a mechanism for deciding final standings to be written into the competition’s rules after controversy over curtailment threatened to derail Project Restart last season…”
==============
I believe that the SPFL management failed to get clubs to agree to it assuming additional covid-related powers recently.
However, if the season is stopped prematurely again, does the SPFL have any new / clearer rules to deal with it?
Or, will it be a repeat of the unseemly, public bunfight amongst clubs, the SPFL and SFA?
Paddy, a good point! I remember reading an article a few years ago about a lot of the high earning ‘celebrities’ working at the BBC are not employees and as such there is no income tax or N.I. deductions. They are left to deal with their own tax matters. If I remember correctly, not a few were using tax avoidance schemes. I think that is par for the course in those circles.
Hardly surprising then that BBC Radio Scotland Sports has got no problem hiring EBT recipients as pundits!
StevieBC I think you know the answer to that. Prepare for a bunfight!
Homunculus 1st September 2020 at 21:03
Apparently if HMRC had just accepted what they were offered in the first place then none of this would have happened and everyone would be better off.
…………..
If only the ibrox club had accepted HMRCs offer at the start, none of this would have happened and the ibrox club would have survived.
John Clark 2nd September 2020 at 10:18
I note incidentally that the new Head of the BBC , (not-yet ‘Sir’) Tim Davie “spent his first day meeting staff at BBC Scotland in Glasgow.” (“The Scotsman”, today)
In his message to all staff he said “….a BBC for all….ensure that we deliver outstanding and unique value…..To do this we will need to keep reforming the BBC with urgency so that we are trusted, relevant…We are an organisation that matters, and your work is admired for its creative brilliance, outstanding journalism….”
……………….
Chris McLaughlin Tweet testerday morning.
He should never have faced fraud charges relating to purchase of ibrox club.
…
Chris McLaughlin Tweet later that evening.
He should never have been prosecuted on fraud charges relating to the purchase of rangers assets back in 2012.
……..
Maybe the new Head of the BBC words had an effect.
Cluster One 2nd September 2020 at 14:48
'..Maybe the new Head of the BBC words had an effect.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Ha, ha!
If Davie's words could have such immediate effect, there would be a follow-up documentary by Mark Daly, showing how Scottish Football , after a reasonably honest start, sold its soul; and apologising to us all for the part the BBC played in aiding and abetting the fostering and propagation of a sporting untruth that was as wicked and damaging as it was ludicrous!
( I should, in scrupulous fairness, add that I understand that Chris McLaughlin was not 'yes-man' enough to avoid being the reason why the BBC is barred from Ibrox)
JC, I find it amazing that the BBC are still barred from Ibrox despite BBC Scotland's compliance with the 'continuity myth' !
paddy malarkey 2nd September 2020 at 12:40
"John Clark at 10.18
You could also ask about using taxpayers money to pay EBT tax dodgers. The response I got is that BBC are happy to let people look after their own tax affairs."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
A reminder of that dodge by well-known BBC staffers and freelancers :
'BBC to pay out millions to settle historic tax avoidance claims'
https://www.taxwatchuk.org/bbc-tax_avoidance/
Off Topic. Although mostly a lurker, I miss EJs contributions to the site. I can understand why he eventually gave up banging his head at the ending of last season. In terms of Hearts obviously.
But he is knowledgeable in so much more than that and could still contribute.
I am a Celtic supporter but that is not to say I was not sympathetic or empathetic at times with his views.
If the BBC are still barred from Ibrox then surely TRFC are in breach of the SPFL contract with the BBC, therefore should not receive any of the monies from distributed from the BBC
Also the BBC should cease from broadcasting or publicising any news, etc. from TRFC
I wonder how that would go down with the Ibrox faithful and indeed the RFC biased staff with the BBC ?
Someone from the SPFL should show some bottle and remind TRFC they have contractual obligations to them, and if they don’t fulfil them there will be penalties
Menace, yes you are correct, the BBC are half hearted on their part in the 'not talking to each other' impasse. Continually updating during games, displaying quotes from SG etc.
Contemplating a rainy Wednesday night in September. In Scotland. Just food for thought. Nothing mischievous although very much bereft of research…
Aberdeen FC and Celtic FC’s management team haven’t had their troubles to seek. Both face a fixture backlog; albeit Celtic are much more troubled with this, given the stakes, but less so given their depth of squad.
I proffer a solution lost. The ‘game in hand ‘should’ve and ‘could’ve’ been played this evening.
The rules? Aberdeen don’t field ‘the 8’ and Celtic dig deep into their squad in the absence of their international call-ups and the suspended Bolingoli (obviously).
If that didn’t ‘square the circle’, I can’t foresee a better way to neutralise an otherwise infinite claim of injustice. Not without the philosophers stone or, at least without a compass, moral or otherwise.
10 must be binary. Regardless of whether it equals 4 x 3.
I’m away back to the weather on the West coast….
Just a reminder. – The BBC is not barred from Ibrox, only the one BBC employee. It is BBC who say that if he is barred then they will send no-one until that is withdrawn.
Then followed the decision that the BBC were not allowed interviews if they did not cover the games.
Mickey Edwards 3rd September 2020 at 09:16
“..Just a reminder. – The BBC is not barred from Ibrox, only the one BBC employee. It is BBC who say that if he is barred then they will send no-one until that is withdrawn.”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
When it comes to matters of fundamental principle there can be no selectivity as to which principles are to be defended and which ignored and trump-led upon.
If the BBC adopts as a principle that no lying football club can dictate to them which BBC reporter will be sent to cover any news story, they should be ready to adhere to a more fundamental principle: that the BBC should itself insist on reporting and telling the truth about that lying football club, instead of fostering and propagating the Big and utterly absurd Lie at the very heart of it!
‘Press freedom’ is freedom to investigate and report on the truth, not freedom to sustain a Lie.
The BBC still gets ‘Nul points’, from me!
The BBC have been banned so many times from ibrox over the last years it is a wonder they just don’t tell the ibrox club to go take a hike. They would get less hastle if they just cut all ties with the club.Would not worry about a boycot, they have been there seen that. They might get another demonstration at the BBC studios, maybe more than 20 will turn up this time.
For an institution which has coined the phrase, “time to move on”, TRFC are very reluctant to do so so.
Their problem is that they badly need as many ongoing causes célèbres as possible in order to deflect from the existential issues that have dogged them and the predecessor club for over ten years now.
Can’t see any detente breaking out any time soon on any of several fronts.
I hope this upcoming business is accessible and that I can get the access number:
“Friday 11th September
Continued Procedural Hearings
between 9.00am and 10.00am
CA9/20 David Whitehouse v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c A & WM Urquhart Ledingham Chalmers
CA10/20 Paul Clark v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c Kennedys Ledingham Chalmers LLP
Big Pink 3rd September 2020 at 20:43
".. TRFC are very reluctant to do so ….."
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I have some sympathy for them in so far as they are in the same situation as Shakespeare's Macbeth confessed himself to be: :" in blood Stepped in so far that, should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o'er".
The only way forward for TRFC is to acknowledge the truth: that while the supporters of the liquidated RFC of 1872 transferred their undoubted loyalty to a new club which
uses the assets ( bought at fire-sale prices) that had belonged to the liquidated club
and which adopts the 'philosophy' and attitudes of the liquidated club,
the sporting history of the liquidated club could not and cannot meaningfully be transferred to the new club.
I imagine that the need to claim and pretend to be RFC of 1872 arose principally from the desire to float RIFC plc as being the holding company of 'the most successful club in the world" [no one could seriously have believed that the loyalty of the fans to a new 'Rangers' would have been at risk if the newness of TRFC had been admitted]
If they had had to tell investors that their investment would be in a brand new football club that hadn't kicked a ball (as, in my view, they ought legally to have done!) there was a risk that the flotation might have failed and no one would have made any money!)
So, the Prospectus for the IPO simply had to at least imply that all that had happened was little more than a change of ownership of the same club. There have been and are many examples of such in world football. And there's no problem with that.
But in fact nobody settled the debts and bought RFC out of Administration.
There was no new owner of RFC of 1872.
That was a problem, until the iniquitous 5-way Agreement, which was aimed at creating such a fudge of legal and sporting reality as to create a false sense of 'legitimacy' : the assertion was able to be made that the 'Football Authorities' recognise the new club as actually being the old club!
And so on and on and on, with the ASA and the BBC Trust and the SMSM , UEFA , the ECA and ( sadly) the FCA, taking the word of the SFA as the Football Governance body, the Guardian of the Sport in Scotland, that TRFC is 'continuity Rangers of 1872'!
( with Pacific Quay 'sieg heiling' with as smart a clicking of promotion-minding heels as ever there was at the Nuremberg rallies in the 1930s)
Eight years have passed since the iniquitous 5-Way Agreement.
Today, we have in effect a guilty club in our midst, and an even guiltier governance body.
Our game is therefore a charade.
Is there a way forward?
There is, of course.
But, like Macbeth, no one has the moral courage to take the first step on that way.
( But ,again in absolute fairness, Dave King has to be credited with acknowledging the fact that RFC of 1872 can still be bought out of Liquidation!
Where that would leave the SPL with two clubs having one share would be a wee problem, though )
John Clark 3rd September 2020 at 22:54
"Where that would leave the SPL with two clubs having one share would be a wee problem, though )
"
Oh were I to be a billionaire, like some "fine" men on the board of Celtic FC PLC, I would be only too happy to offer BDM a satisfactory sum to buy RFC PLC (now RFC 2012) out of liquidation.
I would then challenge the SFA/SPFL in court as to why "my" historic titles have been given to another club. Oh the joy, to see them squirming under oath trying to justify their actions and give credence to the 5-way confidence trick.
Why Desmond, O'Brien, Haughey et al, haven't pooled their resources to do just that is beyond me???
Unless of course, they are perfectly happy for their fans, as well as 40 other football clubs fans, to be stitched up this way……
normanbatesmumfc 4th September 2020 at 09:52
'..Unless of course, they are perfectly happy for their fans, as well as 40 other football clubs fans, to be stitched up this way……'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Well, the gentlemen you mention seem to have been happy enough not to have had the possibility that their club was cheated out of some millions of pounds even investigated!
A properly functioning a.se really does need two cheeks!
I suppose my moral compass, choosing "doing the right thing" before profit and my disposition of treating others as my equal, would disqualify me from joining any "billionaires club".
In other news, it would appear yet another fake transfer story has been rebuffed – Barisic £8m transfer to Leeds. This added to the Morelos to Lille, (and a dozen other clubs) and Kent to Leeds, where much needed inflated transfer figures are banded about, without any real bids forthcoming. Always followed by the player's apparent commitment to the Ibrox cause.
It all reads to me as a desperate attempt to get a large chunk of cash in pronto and Anyone Everyone is for sale….
normanbatesmumfc 4th September 2020 at 12:16
‘..It all reads to me as a desperate attempt to get a large chunk of cash in pronto and Anyone Everyone is for sale….’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
From the ‘Herald’
30th April
“Rangers freeze season ticket prices for 2020/21 campaign and extend application deadline”
By Matthew Lindsay @MattLindsayHT
“And the Liverpool and England great (Gerrard) confirmed the Ladbrokes Premiership outfit, who sold a record 47,000 season books last term, would not be asking for any more money from their regular followers.”
4th September “The Scotsman”,
by Andy Newport (Press Association)
” Supporters have bought up 46,500 season passes despite the current closed-door restrictions’
” Meanwhile, Rangers managing director Stewart Robertson has praised the club’s support after season tickets sold out once again’
Does anyone know the true number of season passes that it’s possible to sell? Has there been a reduction in capacity since April, or is one or the other ‘reporter’ a splendid example of the useless toss-pots who pass themselves of as journalists??
Or is it Robertson who’s a useless toss-pot of a managing director who doesn’t know the season ticket capacity?
normanbatesmumfc 4th September 2020 at 09:52
Why Desmond, O’Brien, Haughey et al, haven’t pooled their resources to do just that is beyond me???
……………
They would have to pay the Debt. The big tax the wee tax any oldco fines that were never paid. They would then have to find somewhere to play as their old place has someone else moved in they would then have to gather a playing squad and backroom staff. Then apply for membership to the league. Then any court cases that may arise to challenge the SFA/SPFL in court as to why “my” historic titles have been given to another club.
To much cost just so you could say that you own the club with the most trophies in scotland. And by the time you did all that Celtic would have overtaken you in the Trophy haul.
King had a stadium and a fan base and a compliant SFA, SPFL and media, but never had the money to bring the old club out of liquidation.
It seems that Scottish football will never “move on”.
As long as there is ‘a Rangers’ in the SPFL, that club will claim to be Rangers FC which died in 2012. The Ibrox fans will not accept anything resembling the truth.
The SFA & SPFL, (& the other, 41 clubs), have zero interest in revisiting 2012, and will continue to strain their collective brass necks to look the other way. They have ALL bought into the continuation lie.
IMO, the closest that non-TRFC supporters will get to any acknowledgment of wrongdoing is when Petrie and Doncaster have shuffled out of Hampden for the last time. Then, their successors ‘might’ try to play the PR game of blaming all the governance woes in 2012 on those 2 departed individuals. Under new management, let’s all “move on” now…
(Of course, this is additionally flawed in that the next SPFL and SFA leaders will be cut from exactly the same cloth as Petrie and Doncaster.)
IMO, the only way the game can move on from 2012 is literal.
Only if/when Scottish clubs are admitted to a cross border league – whether English or European – will the memories of 2012 begin to fade, IMO.
Scottish football has neither the ability – nor the will – to deal with the insidious fallout from the shameful governance decisions around 2012.
A question that may already have been answered some years ago : following the death of Rangers of 1872 which living club rightly claims to be the most successful football club in world football?
And are they content that an 8 year old club is allowed to claim that title?
StevieBC 4th September 2020 at 15:23
The Ibrox fans will not accept anything resembling the truth.
…………..
They all accepted the Truth in 2012. But they deny they accepted it.
John Clark 4th September 2020 at 18:45
……………….
Al Ahly from Egypt are the most decorated club with 118 Trophies. I don’t know if they claim to be the most successful football club in the world.Is being successful staying alive as a club? It may depend of what clubs look at as being successful. The ibrox club can claim to be whatever they want, does not make it true.
In the lower leagues of scottish football the ibrox club had banners to claim they were the most successful club in the world, but i don’t know if it was embarrasment that they were never seen again or after https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-rangers-football-club-ltd-a13-224406.html They thought we are trying to hard to convince, remembering that ASA allow IRN-BRU to claim it is made from Girders.
The whole successful thing was dropped and the banners removed.