Guest Blog by Shyster and Shyster
Anyone hoping for some “on the record comments” made under oath in the Kinloch v Coral case is Court last week would have been sorely disappointed.
Like many people I followed James Doleman’s tweets from Court with interest. However, it became clear very early on in the proceedings that there was to be no seminal moment in the OCNC debate – despite the obvious defence available to Coral which would have made it so.
A tweet from Mr Doleman (see below) makes it clear that Coral sent a letter to Mr Kinloch explaining the reason why they would not pay out on his bet.
The reason, in a a sentence was that “Rangers were demoted, not relegated”.
Here is that Tweet from Mr Doleman.
I assume then, that an employee of Coral communicated this letter to Mr Kinloch without getting it “legalled” first.
That is extraordinary for a number of reasons; firstly, it is factually incorrect, and secondly it can be argued that this position leaves Coral open to exposure in other areas.
I find it difficult to imagine how this letter left Coral without the approval of their legal people, especially given that £250K plus legal costs was at stake.
If I was in Kinloch’s position, I would on the phone to the nearest no-win-no-fee lawyer I could find, because in the light of their explanation for refusing to settle the bet, and using terminology that Coral would understand, he is better than evens to win the case.
I think it would be fair to conclude this employee may be facing disciplinary action, and that this action will turn up as a case study in the training manuals sitting on shelves in every bookmaker shop in the country.
However just because the OCNC debate sat on the bench last week it doesn’t mean there wasn’t something juicy on show. The SPL’s legal representative, Rod McKenzie – a defence witness in the case – made some very interesting comments in his evidence.
Before I go into his comments further I would like to address some unfair criticism aimed at Mr McKenzie. As most of us know, he is the lawyer who helped create in elusive 5 Way Agreement.
Nothing has blurred the lines of the OCNC debate more than this document, and Mr McKenzie himself is most likely to have authored the 5 Way Agreement, and provided a rationale for his client, the SPL signing up to it. But the SPL would have outlined what they wanted in the Agreement, so any anger directed at McKenzie is misdirected. He was, quite rightly, looking after the interests of his client. It is not his fault that his client is an idiot.
Notwithstanding this, Mr McKenzie said – or rather didn’t say – some very interesting things.
- He told us that the 5 Way Agreement contains (what appears to be) nuclear grade confidentiality clauses.
- He couldn’t – or wouldn’t provide a definition of Relegation.
The man who wrote the rules for the SPL says he cannot define relegation. Well he can, but he chooses not to.
Conclusion? I can only infer that there is something in the 5 Way Agreement that precludes him from saying more.
I have seen (online) what are alleged to be draft versions of the 5 Way Agreement. In Football term though, and despite of existing Corporate Law, the OCNC debate cannot be fully settled until the actual and final terms of this agreement are known.
If only there was a way to see that document.
Allegedly, CFC has rejected a real bid from a real club…
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/10743239/chelsea-bid-for-celtic-goalkeeper-craig-gordon-rejected
GeordieJagJanuary 24, 2017 at 23:22
tonyJanuary 25, 2017 at 12:32_____________
Trying to follow up on the trade mark issue, I’ve just copied this from the Intellectual Property office’ website
.IPO GOV UK Links :Intellectual Property Office
Case details for trade mark UK0002181523ATrade mark THE O.. F..M…Filing date 06 November 1998 Date of entry in register 25 June 1999 Renewal date 06 November 2018
Name and Address detailsOwner(s) name Celtic F.C.Limited and The Rangers Football Club plc Celtic Park, Glasgow, G40 3RE, and, Ibrox Stadium, Glasgow, G51 2XD, Scotland, United KingdomCountry of Incorporation United KingdomIPO representative name Ancient Hume Limited 21 Lansdowne Crescent, Edinburgh, United Kingdom, EH12 5EH ”
And I have sent the following email :
Toemail@ancienthume.co.ukCC enquiries@ipo.gov.uk enquiries@companieshouse.gov.uk
“Dear Sirs,I note from the UK Intellectual Property Office (IPO) website that the owners of the trade mark ‘O.d Fm’ were ,on 25th June 1999, registered as being Celtic FC Ltd and The Rangers Football Club plc.
I note also that the renewal date for that registration is 6th November 2018.
Companies House records show that the club that was Rangers Footballl Club plc ( company number SC004276) , having changed its name to RFC 2012 plc, is in Liquidation, and has been since 2012.
On the face of it , the IPO’s record is out-of-date, and possibly misleadingly so, since one of the stated joint owners is incorrectly named, or at least, there is no mention that Liquidators may have had, may still have,control of rights of ownership.
Oughtn’t you, as the IPO representative, to have notified the IPO of the liquidation of The Rangers Football Club plc and the fact that its assets of all kinds at the point of liquidation were under the control of the Liquidators?
And,indeed , given that the trade mark ‘O.d F..m’ specifically arose from the long historical commercial relationship between Celtic FC Ltd and the now liquidated The Rangers Football Club plc, isn’t the trade mark actually meaningless and irrelevant either because one of the joint owners is no longer in business or because, if the rights to that ownership have been sold by the Liquidators , the new joint owner could scarcely be held to have had a long established commercial relationship with Celtic FC Ltd?
I feel that there is something not quite right , and I would like to be reassured that our public records are accurate.
Yours faithfully,’real name and address’
[ Note: I had to edit because my first attempt is in moderation because, I think, of the use of a particular term! If the post appears twice, my apologies.
StevieBC, my in-laws are staying just now, so I saw the Record yesterday and today. It’s hilarious how – despite the fact that Leipzig have debunked the story about £6m for Mackay – the SMSM has now had about 5 consecutive days where they are still talking about his potential sale. Today’s sizeable article has MW warning that Mackay won’t be allowed to go on the cheap. The trouble is there isn’t even anyone trying to get him on the cheap, let alone any other price.
An emailI have sent , in connection with the ‘trade mark’.
To
email@ancienthume.co.uk
CC
enquiries@ipo.gov.uk enquiries@companieshouse.gov.uk
Message body “Dear Sirs,I note from the UK Intellectual Property Office (IPO) website that the owners of the trade mark ‘O.. .irm’ were ,on 25th June 1999, registered as being Celtic FC Ltd and The Rangers Football Club plc.
I note also that the renewal date for that registration is 6th November 2018.
Companies House records show that the club that was Rangers Footballl Club plc ( company number SC004276) , having changed its name to RFC 2012 plc, is in Liquidation, and has been since 2012.
On the face of it , the IPO’s record is out-of-date, and possibly misleadingly so, since one of the stated joint owners is incorrectly named, or at least, there is no mention that Liquidators may have had, may still have,control of rights of ownership
Oughtn’t you, as the IPO representative, to have notified the IPO of the liquidation of The Rangers Football Club plc and the fact that its assets of all kinds at the point of liquidation were under the control of the Liquidators?
And,indeed , given that the trade mark ‘O…irm’ specifically arose from the long historical commercial relationship between Celtic FC Ltd and the now liquidated The Rangers Football Club plc, isn’t the trade mark actually meaningless and irrelevant either because one of the joint owners is no longer in business or because, if the rights to that ownership have been sold by the Liquidators , the new joint owner could scarcely be held to have had a long established commercial relationship with Celtic FC Ltd.
I feel that there is something not quite right , and I would like to be reassured that our public records are accurate.
Yours faithfully,
I’ve had three goes at posting , fallen foul of the mods, and cannot see where the fault is , having tried to avoid automatic triggers.
Have to go to bed now!
JOHN CLARK
JANUARY 26, 2017 at 15:43
I’ve had three goes at posting , fallen foul of the mods, and cannot see where the fault is…
============================
JC, have you recently acquired some ‘salty’ language whilst down under…?
NAWLITE
JANUARY 26, 2017 at 15:37
StevieBC, my in-laws are staying just now, so I saw the Record yesterday and today. It’s hilarious how – despite the fact that Leipzig have debunked the story about £6m for Mackay – the SMSM has now had about 5 consecutive days where they are still talking about his potential sale…
===========================
Well, when the Bampots have the story swiftly debunked by various contacts at Leipzig itself, it just beggars belief why anyone would believe anything in the DR.
The DR is catering to an ever dwindling demographic: blindly loyal bears who get most of their footy information from printed newspapers.
Once the newspapers’ presses have finally been switched off for good, brands likes the DR will disappear forever, IMO…absolutely!
So Ralph Topping, the Chairman of the SPFL has resigned after 7 years in post.
“The smooth amalgamation of the SPL [Scottish Premier League] and the SFL [Scottish Football League] in 2013, the successful restructuring of the SPFL’s cup competitions and the major advances in club fees are three prime examples of the professional game in Scotland working together for the greater good and I’m sure that the SPFL will continue its current upward progress in the years ahead.”
(BBC News)
Everything in the garden is lovely. Everyone worked together for the greater good.
Pity he omitted to mention the biggest thing to hit Scottish football governance in generations. Maybe they did all work together, but it certainly wasn’t for the greater good.
@ StevieBC (and others):
Headlines reading ‘Barry McKay Is Worth Less Than Half Oliver Burke’s Transfer Fee’ wouldn’t have sold many papers to the Ibrox blue massive
I’m told (unverifiable) that the £6m tag originally came from a bit of dressing-room banter, as players gave (inflated/dream) values to themselves & their team-mates. Someone present passed these throwaway comments to their Level Sinko contact for a pat on the head & a Mars Bar & the rest is chip-papers.
Is there any truth that DCK is in Glasgow for a medical before signing as a player, valuing himself at £30m & thus fulfilling his promise?
Sergio BiscuitsJanuary 26, 2017 at 14:59
THE RANGERS NIL? WHOMISSEDTHEPENALTY? JJ didn’t have to do much research, the article in question was posted on here yesterday, from PMGB’s twitter.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
JJ is scathing in his critisism of SFM, Sergio, and often forgets to acknowledge his sources.
I was being sarcastic.
THE RANGERS NIL? WHO MISSED THE PENALTY?
Ah, no worries, could do with a sarcasm smiley on here!
On twitter someone called mikewhitesports has claimed TRFC have turned down a bid from Hull City of £1.5m for Josh Windass, because, apparently, he has a £3m release clause. In my opinion it is either someone trying to wind the bears up, or a Level5 spin piece, for I have not read, even a bear, say anything to suggest Windass is any more than a bit part player, at best.
It did make me wonder, though, why so much of this stuff goes on around TRFC and I can only think it’s married to the myth and the constant TRFC mince produced by the SMSM; and the reason for it is to try to maintain the impression, outside of Scotland, that TRFC (‘Rangers’) are still a massive club! A massive club with an aura that would induce players to come, and, at the same time, induce clubs to presume their players must be worth looking at! What’s more, it seems that a great many clubs pay a lot of attention to the videos produced by players’ agents, and I am sure clubs must also do online searches for media reports on players to see if they compare favourably with the videos before taking an interest any further.
I doubt any top English club would be interested in any player in Scotland without scouting him out properly, but overseas clubs’ interest might well be piqued by reports of TRFC (in the guise of ‘Rangers’), or any Scottish club, for that matter, turning down bids of £1.5m from an English Premiership club, and believe that this must be a club worth checking out for a little gem or two.
I’m sure every football club has been guilty of signing players on reputation, alone, and this could be what these kind of reports are all about.
ALLYJAMBO
JANUARY 26, 2017 at 18:23
…
I’m sure every football club has been guilty of signing players on reputation, alone…
===============================
AJ, you are talking Scheidt, aren’t you…?
JIMBOJANUARY 26, 2017 at 16:13
11 Votes
So Ralph Topping, the Chairman of the SPFL has resigned after 7 years in post.
———————
Earlier in the year or was it just before christmas a sports writer(i believe it was) left his job after many years.
(sorry i can’t remember the journalists name).i’m sure it was a journalist.
And when we heard Mr Broadfoot was leaving we said there would be more (getting out of dodge) before March came along Now Ralph Topping is leaving.
i did ask if anyone was keeping a list, as i would not be surprised if more move jobs or resign before March.
SMSM propaganda machine in full flow in recent weeks, first with the McKay 6 Million nonsense, now with Windass and the fictional bid from Hull. Same old tactics to inflate value of their dwindling assets. Simply can’t believe folk still fall for this nonsense it’s been regurgitated so many times!
EASTWOOD
only certain people fall for it ans have been for 5 years
Cluster One, I was thinking that as I read the news that Ralph Topping was making his exit. Joe McHugh mentioned in the past few days that Broadfoot (I am the SFA) may be the first to hop it with the upcoming Supreme Court ruling and especially the consequences for Res. 12.
Lets hope so. Lets hope the floodgates open. But as I said yesterday it really needs the chairpersons of the clubs to stand up and be counted.
After the Supreme Court judgement,I would start by convening a meeting of all the clubs who were most directly affected by EBTs and irregular registrations. The clubs who should have qualified for Europe if it were not for rangers cheating. There are quite a few.
I would just about sue the socks of everyone at Hampden.
Get a head of steam up to strip titles and reallocate results, even now, just like the Olympics 4 x 100m.
Do you think they have the stomach for such integrity? Naw, neither do I.
Joey Barton story featuring a club from Govan, with a small ‘c’
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/joey-barton-sparks-online-backlash-9695552
Beware, link reads to an oily rag!
StevieBCJanuary 26, 2017 at 15:58
‘….JC, have you recently acquired some ‘salty’ language whilst down under…? ‘
_________
ha ha! No, I could always use an adjective or two.
But in my post ( which, happily, has appeared twice (!)- thank you, Mods) I could see nothing other than (in the first attempt) the full words used in the trade mark that might be an automatic trigger fro moderation.
In my second attempt I amended to leave out what I thought might have been the problem, but it was still deemed to be ‘spam’ and held in moderation.
i don’t expect to get anything other than a ‘none of your business’ from the quaintly named ‘Ancient Hume’.
And, since I only copied to IPO and CH they are under no obligation to reply at all, ofcourse, since they were not asked a direct question. But perhaps my email will be left in the relevant files of each organisation!
But I hope they quietly check the facts.
Since it’s quiet . From Popbitch. Hae ma doots,though .
The Scotsman newspaper got to celebrate its 200th birthday with a big BBC hagiography (The Paper Thistle) last week but we preferred this story:
“A friend there recalls calling across the room for a photograph of Ayrton Senna for a motor racing story.
“The following day the paper appeared with his Formula One scoop – and a lovely colour picture of Ayr town centre.”
I keep having to remember the time difference between Australia and the ‘far side of the world’ as seen from where I presently ( at about twentyfive to twelve midnight) am enjoying (a bottle of!) ‘150 Lashes’ , while Mrs C , just down from checking on the grandweans ( mum and dad being free to gout for dinner and catch some comedy show in Brisbane), munches Smith’s crisps disgustingly noisily and reads her Kindle.
I’ve just been reading the wee bit in ‘the Scotsman’ about the guy with the tattoo of the Ibrox gates on his back.
‘The tattoo depicts the gates of Ibrox with a club crest in the centre and the words ‘Simply the Best’ written underneath.
Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/rangers-fan-deletes-tattoo-picture-after-mocking-from-fans-1-4350620‘
My attention was struck by the choice of words ” with a club crest” (emphasis mine).
David Gunn must surely be commended for readiness to imply that there might be a question over to which club the crest might properly belong!
John ClarkJanuary 27, 2017 at 13:39
I suppose the answer to that would lie in the answer to, ‘what date was the tattoo done?’
I keep having to remember the time difference between Australia and the ‘far side of the world’ as seen from where I presently ( at about twentyfive to twelve midnight) am enjoying (a bottle of!) ‘150 Lashes’ , while Mrs C , just down from checking on the grandweans ( mum and dad being free to gout for dinner and catch some comedy show in Brisbane), munches Smith’s crisps disgustingly noisily and reads her Kindle. I’ve just been reading the wee bit in ‘the Scotsman’ about the guy with the tattoo of the Ibrox gates on his back.‘The tattoo depicts the gates of Ibrox with a club crest in the centre and the words ‘Simply the Best’ written underneath. Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/rangers-fan-deletes-tattoo-picture-after-mocking-from-fans-1-4350620‘My attention was struck by the choice of words ” with a club crest” (emphasis mine). David Gunn must surely be commended for readiness to imply that there might be a question over to which club the crest might properly belong!
______________________________________
Might just simply be his way of omitting the, unacceptable down Govan way and in SMSM land, word ‘The’ when referring to, well… the club playing at Ibrox?
John ClarkJanuary 27, 2017 at 07:29
‘….And, since I only copied to IPO and CH they are under no obligation to reply at all, ofcourse, ‘
________
But, as a matter of fact, my email was acknowledged ( automatically) with the promise from Companies House of a reply within 21 days, and from the IPO a message that my email has been passed to the appropriate section which may reply in due course.
One cannot say fairer than that.
As a former sort of public official of little consequence, I know that my little email is there , on the record.
AND forever, as opposed to the ‘olden’ times when paper records were destroyed after certain sensible, pragmatically-decided periods of time.( But we know, of course, from history ,that there will always be some record of the truth, even if centuries pass before the evidence comes to light)
If ever a question were to arise as to whether an agent for companies seeking registration of a trade mark might have been remiss in its duties, there will be my little email proving that someone at least drew such an agent’s attention to a possible lapse
.And also flagged up such a possible lapse to the ‘Authorities’.
Or, at least, drew attention to the fact that right now, a ‘public record’ is factually incorrect, or appears to be so.
(And we certainly cannot have ‘public records’ of any sort , such as , for instance, the records of the sporting achievements of Scottish Football Clubs being other than 100% correct, can we?)
John Clark
The tattoo depicts the gates of Ibrox with a club crest in the centre and the words ‘Simply the Best’ written underneath.Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/rangers-fan-deletes-tattoo-picture-after-mocking-from-fans-1-4350620‘My attention was struck by the choice of words ” with a club crest” (emphasis mine).
I think the guy will have to go back again as the Ltd will show company and club as in one !!!
Right, before reading this, please be aware I suspect this to be a spoof.
As usual, I don’t have the twitter know how to copy tweets properly, but the following is part of a tweet conversation that was retweeted on my timeline. It is, alledgedly, from @FIFA_Official. Hopefully someone can check it out and let me know if they think it’s genuine. There are more tweets purporting to be from FIFA in the conversation, but I’d rather not post them here as they are sensational if genuine, and, as I said, I think they are no more than a spoof. Tellingly there doesn’t seem to be much interest in it on twitter, which is a factor in making me very sceptical of it’s provenance.
@jduffin24
We can confirm that removing titles awarded to the old club is a potential punishment for a breach of player registration rules
Did everyone guess/work out it was a spoof?
I don’t know who that is at the gates but it’s definitely Danny McGrain in the middle…..
One for the old timers!!!
Allyjambo January 27, 2017 at 16:10
Did everyone guess/work out it was a spoof?
======================
It wasn’t difficult. It describes itself as a “parody account”.
In the last few days, I saw mention on here and other blogs that King was in the country, but no mention of any reason why from any poster. Similarly, no press/TV coverage as far as I know (though I could easily have missed such).
Does anyone know if it’s just a rumour or if he is actually here – or has been?
If it’s true and he is here, does anyone have any knowledge of what he has been doing, who he has been meeting etc?
NAWLITEJANUARY 27, 2017 at 17:07
————–
It is not unusual (there is a song in there somewhere.And yes you will now be singing it all night)
for the smsm to have a king jets in back page spread. He has been in scotland since wednesday. I belive Phil may have mentioned he was here.
But there was no big fuss made of his arrival. looks like he came in under the radar which is very strange.
Even an ibrox fan friend mentioned it to me today by saying “king has been here since wednesday, it’s the first iv’e heard”
——–Ps. the last time he arrived with no fanfare he was filmed coming out of Hampden after a nice cup of tea and a chat. He just popped in
nawliteJanuary 27, 2017 at 17:07
In the last few days, I saw mention on here and other blogs that King was in the country, but no mention of any reason why from any poster.
***********************************
the THE Rangers are trying to BUY a goalkeeper, the offer is £250,000
I would imagine that Dave King is here to try to thrash out a payment plan,
STV reporting that the first attempt at an installment plan was rejected.
I guess for morale / positive PR King has to sign somebody – you know, for money.
(I am assuming that only loanees have been brought in this month?)
If they acquired any player for e.g. £50 deposit and with the balance spread over 1/2/3 years, that would be ideal. 🙂
With a confidentiality clause in place a ‘TRFC source’ could inform Keef that the player cost £1 million?
Of course, the Balmpots would laugh but the technophobic bears would be pleased?
Mibbees.
NAWLITEJANUARY 27, 2017 at 17:07
“If it’s true and he is here, does anyone have any knowledge of what he has been doing, who he has been meeting etc?”
—————————————————————————————————————————
Judging by the Port Vale Keeper bid, he has a meeting with the general public at the bottom of Buchanan St. Also in attendance, will be an empty coffee carton, and a one-eyed dog with a limp on a piece of string…Maybe even a wee mooth organ.
I get what this site is mainly about. The football authorities in Scotland, the media in Scotland. And what happened in Scotland with Rangers under the direction of David Murray. The cheating, the tax evasion, how that impacted on all the other clubs in Scotland. The sleekit individuals involved between Ibrox and Hampden.
But as I have mentioned on here many times, the most disgusting part of that history is all the other clubs in Scotland. They knew what was going on and said nothing. Held no one to account, even to this day. (bar one).
On a weekly basis I have to suspend hatred of Scottish football to watch 11 players v 11 players. Like tonight Aberdeen v Dundee, for 90 mins. you can forget and enjoy a game.
But it’s all written forever more in sites like this. Future football historians, writers and ordinary interested fans have a huge amount of research material of the men who sold the jerseys.
coatbridgeloyaltycad January 27, 2017 at 20:51
the THE Rangers are trying to BUY a goalkeeper, the offer is £250,000. I would imagine that Dave King is here to try to thrash out a payment plan, STV reporting that the first attempt at an installment plan was rejected.
—————————————————–
According to this Tweet it looks like Port Vale want to see the colour of Mr King’s money before they do business with him.
The Rangers bid for Jak Alnwick was £70k up front & £60k in the Summers of 2018, 2019 & 2020, this doesn’t trigger his £250k buy out clause. — Inside The SPFL (@AgentScotland) January 27, 2017
I notice a wag on another site has suggest that King is here to sign £6m rated Mackay for 5 years. 6m * 5 years = £30m. Et voila!
I’m not a betting man, but I’d still wager that the Judge in the Coral/Kinloch case will declare that Rangers were ‘relegated’, based purely on the information placed before him. This will be conclusive proof to the bluenose hordes that the club that they follow follow is the same as the one born in 1872. Of course the mainstream media will go into overdrive to report this slant despite virtually no coverage of the case so far.
Furthermore, there seems to be a worrying trend developing whereby guilt in the Big Tax Case/EBT decision is seen as being a racing certainty.
Have we all forgotten the myriad of baffling decisions that have plagued this five year farce? Despite the calamitous financial state of the club currently operating out of Ibrox, we’d do well to remember the lengths the establishment will go to preserve and protect ‘Rangers’.
Also, let’s not forget that, courtesy of the five way agreement, our corrupt football authorities have absolved ‘Rangers’ of any responsibility regarding the matter of EBTs/side letters, so there’s not going to be any title-stripping undertaken even if guilt is finally and irrevocably established.
I should stress that I’d be delighted to be proved wrong, but it seems that there’s always a surprise around the corner when justice is about to be served.
HighlanderJanuary 28, 2017 at 08:06
_________________________________________________
When I saw the weather this morning I was depressed. Then I read your (probably accurate) post…
Could somebody please cheer me up?
HIGHLANDER
JANUARY 28, 2017 at 08:06 Furthermore, there seems to be a worrying trend developing whereby guilt in the Big Tax Case/EBT decision is seen as being a racing certainty.
==============================================
The Supreme Court will be ruling on whether a tax assessment was correct or not. They are doing this because BDO acting as the company currently in liquidation lodged an appeal against the decision of the Court of Session.
This has nothing to do with “guilt”, it is a tax assessment, and given that the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter (that may be tautology) the matter will be finished. No guilt, no innocence, simply that a tax assessment was proper.
I think they will reject the appeal, it has nothing to do with a “worrying trend” it is simply my opinion.
Apologies for being out of the loop, maybe I’m missing something obvious, but is a decision due in Supreme Court/EBT ruling soon? Outrageous it’s taken this long to settle what should’ve been an open and shut case.
test?
JEAN7BRODIEJANUARY 28, 2017 at 09:50
Could somebody please cheer me up?
—————-
A smile is happiness you’ll find right under your nose. Tom Wilson
———————
And the rain will stop
A couple of things which bring me comfort about the upcoming Supreme Court ruling. Firstly it’s not in Edinburgh. There should not be same level of bias to protect David Murray et. al.
Secondly, as far as I’m aware HMRC are pursuing this so vigorously because it is a sort of test case. Billions of pounds could be heading to the public purse and future tax evasion stopped. So if there is an ‘establishment’ angle to it, that could be it.
The result of this ruling will be referred to in future tax tribunals so it’s very important to governments of whichever hue.
JIMBOJANUARY 28, 2017 at 11:27
A couple of things which bring me comfort about the upcoming Supreme Court ruling. Firstly it’s not in Edinburgh. There should not be same level of bias to protect David Murray et. al.
====================================
The Court of Session, which upheld HMRC’s appeal sits in Edinburgh.
Yes, on the third attempt in Edinburgh. Judges from the Court of Session sat on the two tax tribunals.
JIMBO
JANUARY 28, 2017 at 11:49
Yes, on the third attempt in Edinburgh. Judges from the Court of Session sat on the two tax tribunals.
==========================================
Are you sure about that, I didn’t think Court of Session Judges sat on Tax tribunals.
Even if it was the case it does not change the fact that the highest civil court in Scotland, which sits in Edinburgh, found in favour of HMRC. I think that kind of negates your implication that a Court in Edinburgh would not find in favour of HMRC and against “David Murray et al”.
Looking at that reported bid for the Port Vale keeper, what does it tell us?
Well, Matt Gilkes is leaving (has left?), a goalkeeper who, reportedly, turned down a first choice role at Hearts to be back-up keeper at TRFC, so we can assume he was on a better wage at Ibrox than was offered by Hearts. So a big wage in Scottish terms, and TRFC bound to be glad to get him off the pay-roll. They now need a new back-up keeper, and they are ‘Rangers’, so he must be a ‘startlet’
with a future.
They find one in the English lower divisions who has a sell on clause of £250,000, and is young enough to see ‘Rangers’ as a step up.
But TRFC don’t have £250,000, not even to buy a bargain ‘starlet’ for a position they must cover, so they try to get him on an instalment basis. We can be pretty sure it is an instalment basis, as the terms were not suitable for Port Vale, though we can’t be certain the terms requested were as desperate as have been suggested on twitter. I’d suspect that half now, the rest in the summer (after ST sales) would have been acceptable for a club like Port Vale, so it probably wasn’t as good as that, but maybe they did offer something as high as £125,000 now, so I’ll assume they did.
We know money is very tight at Ibrox, they said so in their accounts, they also hinted (made it clear) that player sales were necessary during this window. They’ve offloaded a few players, but sold none. They need a keeper, but, so far, haven’t signed one. Their pet media have spun ridiculous stories about potential mega-buck sales in an all too obvious effort to drum up interest. If they can’t get this keeper for £250,000, or even in instalments that Port Vale might accept, then I’d suggest that they are unable to sell any players at a price needed to see them through to the March tranche of loan funding, or, at least, that they can’t raise enough to survive and buy this keeper!
No word that they failed to meet the January salaries, so we must assume they were all paid, and they should be able to find a reserve keeper without too much trouble, but not one with any potential, just a stop-gap. Might I suggest that next month’s salaries, though, are dependent on player sales, and there aren’t many players at Ibrox who could raise sufficient money for this, particularly as the club will become more desperate as the clock ticks by to the window’s close, and Ibrox will become ever more of a buyer’s market.
It is possible, though, that, deals have been agreed for player sale(s), but, like has apparently happened with Hearts deal to sign Isma Goncalves, the player(s) is going after one last game, today.
So I guess we haven’t learned much from this failed keeper purchase that we didn’t already know, but maybe it does indicate that King didn’t ‘jet in’ with much more than, say, £125,000 in his pocket!
They may well limp on to the end of the season, but that limp is becoming ever more pronounced!
Well, O’Halloran might not be such an attractive loan signing for anyone, a ban to come for red card in less than 5 minutes at Motherwell, with a ‘tackle’ that wouldn’t make friends
at a potential new club!
I stand corrected on the make up of the First Tier Tribunal – no judges, just legal eagles. On the upper Tier Tribunal sat Lord Doherty from the court of Session.
These tribunals come under the wing of HM Courts & Tribunal Service.
I think we got lucky with the three judges at The Court of Session final stage. Three men with a bit of integrity and common sense.
But let’s not get carried away, remember Nimmo Smith? He used to be a COS judge. Or Lord Glennie who ruled that the transfer embargo by the SFA on Rangers in 2012 was a step too far!
HomunculusJanuary 28, 2017 at 10:40
‘…No guilt, no innocence, simply that a tax assessment was proper. ‘
___________
If, or perhaps, when, the Supreme Court upholds the CoS decision, no one is going to face criminal prosecution, because it is not yet a criminal offence to look for and exploit gaps in the ( sometimes very badly worded legislation on tax) as opposed to telling deliberate porkies to HMRC, such as misreporting and lying your income,or profits, or dividends and what-not.
So, as you say, Homunculus, there will be no question of criminal guilt: just a neutral statement of legal fact that huge sums of money were ,and are still, owed to the nation by SDM’s RFC, sums that were increased during CW’s short-term ownership of RFC, which of , course, are now in Liquidation.
There is, however, huge guilt and no innocence, to be attributed to SDM in respect of his cheating of the world of Football generally,by his deliberate failure to comply with some fundamental rules of the SFA and the then SPL.
He cannot escape either that guilt or the scorn and contempt it engenders for him personlly, and for the RFC that is now in Liquidation.
LNS spouted some nonsense that because the decision on whether EBTs as used by SDM had not been made, SDM did not gain competitive advantage (by having millions that they, paying their taxes and telling the SFA and SPL what they were actually paying to their players, did not have) over his fellow SPL Football club owners because the use of EBTs had been open to them( if only they had been smart enough )
The Supreme Court’s decision will, almost certainly, confirm that the LNS view was in fact and law unsound: that is, that EBTs as used by the archcheat did not comply with tax legislation properly interpreted and properly applied to the facts.
And that ,therefore,use of them a la cheating SDM was not in law ( as well as under ‘Football governance’ rules) open to other clubs, smart or otherwise.
It must necessarily follow that the LNS ‘no competitive advantage’ decision CANNOT be allowed to stand.
That issue must be re-addressed, immediately the SC confirms the CoS decision. There is no ‘protocol’ in the ( democratic) world that would allow a decision based on a fundamentally incorrect understanding of the law to stand, without further examination.
Or, rather, in a properly functioning , entirely honestly administered sports body, it would necessarily follow!
Rabbie Burns kept his job by the exercise of ‘influence’.
The reach of that influence is pretty extensive still.
But I doubt very much that anything like a majority of the SC judges who will hear the appeal against the CoS judgment are men or women who are likely to be influenced by that influence.
Particularly as the CoS was not so influenced.
However, we must be on our guard to ensure that the miserable wretches in our football governance who are already compromised by their past actions in the ‘saga’ do not try to pull another stunt like the 5-Way Agreement, when it comes to re-visiting the ‘ competitive advantage’ issue.
They must not be allowed to rub salt into the wounds they have already by their perfidy inflicted on the Football Scotland body.
Okay, I’ve now seen the reports about TRFC* trying to sign the PV keeper, embarrassing as that looks, but no one can tell me that would require King to be here. What else has he done while he is here? Anyone know?
Talking about King,I love this:
“Irma Stern painting
King’s problems really started, I was told first hand, when he bought an Irma Stern painting at an auction for R1.7 million in 2000.
This was the first time that a Stern painting achieved a price of more than R1 million and this fact obviously caught the attention of the media, and ultimately also that of nuggety Mr Charles Chipps, a special investigator at Sars who, quite simply, read about the Stern-sale in a newspaper and decided to check up on the tax status of the buyer. To his astonishment he found that King declared a taxable income of a mere R60 000.”
https://www.moneyweb.co.za/archive/dave-king-and-i/ ”
Just what is it with these ‘monied’ guys? Except the sharing of contempt for the rest of us?
Bast.rds and conmen. And sports-cheats, too, into the bargain!
And God rest Charles Chipps, and his ordinary work-a-day likes in the public service, who can smell a rat and quietly work away until it is cornered and nailed.
And whose actions stand in stark opposition to those of our own Chick, in his misleading of BBC Radio Scotalnd audiences that King had ‘settled’ with SARS when in fact said King was convicted criminal.
How compare the likes of Charles Chipps with the crawling specimen of a ‘journalist’ such as our Chick, and the senior men at BBC Radio Scotland who first defended him, and then , mealy-mouthed ‘ explained ‘ that he had got it wrong, and no harm done.
And indeed, no harm done to said Chick, since he is still getting paid with our money on an a hoc basis.
Influence of the highest degree, I suspect.
Some weeks ago the redtops went through a wallowing anniversary period with all sorts of nostalgic articles on the glorious return, 10 years ago, of Walter Smith to Rangers, as was, and the demise of Paul le Guen. Ah, such happy days!So I wondered what articles would appear today on the 50th anniversary of probably the biggest shock result ever in scottish football history? Berwick rangers defeated their Glasgow equivalents and perceived betters 1-0.I can still remember the shock today.
So in anniversary-land what’s been printed? From what I see absolutely nothing.Once again the SMSM shame themselves but that’s no great surprise.
At the start of january league chiefs modified existing guidelines and issued a reminder to scottish clubs about unacceptable behaviour at games by fans in a bid to avoid strict liability being imposed.
After todays game Motherwell v the rangers.
Over to you SPFL
jimmciJanuary 28, 2017 at 15:43
Some weeks ago the redtops went through a wallowing anniversary period with all sorts of nostalgic articles on the glorious return, 10 years ago, of Walter Smith to Rangers, as was, and the demise of Paul le Guen. Ah, such happy days!So I wondered what articles would appear today on the 50th anniversary of probably the biggest shock result ever in scottish football history? Berwick rangers defeated their Glasgow equivalents and perceived betters 1-0.I can still remember the shock today. So in anniversary-land what’s been printed? From what I see absolutely nothing.Once again the SMSM shame themselves but that’s no great surprise.
______________________________
Jimmci, don’t you know, by now, that all the bad bits, like debts and horrible history moments, were left behind with the Company (capital C) that is now being liquidated, and only the good bits, like trophies and winning history moments, remain with the everlasting, ethereal, bouncy, bouncy, Clubby (capital C) thingummyjiggerybobbery entity that calls itself ‘The Rangers’? Unless, of course, those bad memories can be used to remind the bears of just how good it was in the days of someone like Sir Walter of the Cardigan EBT Smith!
But, none the less, your point is extremely valid, and surely something of greater significance to both Rangers and Scottish football than the fact they once had a French manager who wasn’t very successful. It could even have been covered in a way that would lead into the story of Jock Wallace’s (Berwick’s goalkeeper that day) reign at Ibrox, who, no doubt, would have led Rangers for free, without any post departure EBT, and had to, we believe, fund his team in the same way the rest of Scottish football did!
“Posted by JC
“To his astonishment he found that King declared a taxable income of a mere R60 000.” ”
At that time there were approximately R12 to the pound. Therefore our poor Lying King only earned £5 000 that year!!
How can he now promise a war chest of £30M.
Some questions.
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/serious-sit-down-at-sevco/
What did King buy-in at?
How much to buy him out?
How close would T3B’s be sailing to the 30% concert party buy out clause?
Phil’s latest post is suggesting that at least one Sevco director has had to provide emergency funding to meet January ‘basic payroll’.
Which reminds me of that old adage about a company in trouble :
– delay supplier payments
then
– delay HMRC payments
then as last resort only
– delay salary payments.
A bit like what that old club Rangers did.
Which raises a reasonable question: is TRFC up to date with HMRC payments?
Mibbees Keef could ask on behalf of the Bampots ?
CLUSTER ONEJANUARY 28, 2017 at 16:24 At the start of january league chiefs modified existing guidelines and issued a reminder to scottish clubs about unacceptable behaviour at games by fans in a bid to avoid strict liability being imposed.After todays game Motherwell v the rangers.Over to you SPFL
——————————————————————————–
Indeed. I was there this afternoon and the sectarian singing was deafening at times, and then there was the smoke bomb and something else that sounded like worlds biggest fire cracker! Before the match Motherwell made their usual announcement about unacceptable behavior, so I am going to contact them directly to make a complaint. Not sure it will do any good, but as part-owner maybe I’ll get a reply!
Just be even-handed I should also say that at the 4-3 Celtic game, a Celtic fan threw a flare after one of their goals that exploded beside a young ball boy who had to be led away in a distressed state. As far as I know Celtic weren’t punished for this, but I do believe that some Celtic officials checked after the game so see if he was alright and Scott Brown gave him his signed shirt.
I saw The Sun today (in-laws still here) and there was a sizeable spread about Berwick’s win in their Sports section. Not trying to support the SMSM but wrong to let any untrue claims gain traction here.
WEE_ALPHAJANUARY 28, 2017 at 17:56
As far as I know Celtic weren’t punished for this, but I do believe that some Celtic officials checked after the game so see if he was alright and Scott Brown gave him his signed shirt.
—————–
i don’t know myself if they were punished, that game was played in Dec 2016. the SPFL have since modified existing guidelines on Jan 2017 and issued a reminder to scottish clubs about unacceptable behaviour at games by fans in a bid to avoid strict liability being imposed.
I don’t know what modifications the SPFL have initiated so we will just have to wait and see
Corrupt official January 28, 2017 at 17:29
Some questions.
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/serious-sit-down-at-sevco/
What did King buy-in at? How much to buy him out? How close would T3B’s be sailing to the 30% concert party buy out clause?
=====================
King bought in at 20.1p a share and paid a total of £2.386m for his shares
If Phil is right about 26p being his selling price, it would give him a profit after costs of around 25%, for a 2 year investment.
The current numbers are:
New Oasis 11,869,505 14.57%
George Taylor 7,575,000 9.30%
Douglas Park 5,000,000 6.14%
George Letham 3,299,515 4.05%
I’ll let you do the maths.
EJ
I think the trigger % requiring the concert party to offer to buy all shares would be more likely to happen in any debt to equity swap. In that event they would certainly be above the 30-odd % event horizon.
King’s shares would not be a bargain at 26p either since his departure would almost certainly see preemption rights disapplied soon after.
EASYJAMBOJANUARY 28, 2017 at 23:49
“King bought in at 20.1p a share and paid a total of £2.386m for his shares”
—————————————————————————————-
Appreciated EJ.
So give or take a few shillings, he will be looking for around £3m for his shares, plus, I would assume, whatever he may have coughed, directly or indirectly, in loans.
It may be worth it, if it gets the monkey of litigation off their backs in March, and a more amicable relationship with Uncle Mick.
However, as they were largely toted as “The Three Bears”, its difficult to see how one could singularly hoover up King’s shares without stepping over the threshhold……Unless a fourth Bear dived into the empty honey-pot ?.
Then there is the additional cash injection required next month.
Wild speculation, but if this came to pass. could they be facing the possibility of stepping back in time, snakes and ladders stylee, with Uncle Mick offering £10m in two tranches, and a return to the position pre-King?. Nomads and stuff !
The PR for that would be a sight to behold. …And with Broadfoot now working for an agency outwith the SFA? …..I’m sure he would be affordable with his knowledge of unmarked graves put to good advantage……………
Just saying like.
To me that’s key. Is it only King that needs bought out with no other loans repaid? If so somebody’s down 3m to buy the opportunity to be asked in a matter of days to put probably at least the same again in. Doubt anyone would do that without Ashley onside. But then Ashley will be as welcome as the proverbial odour orbiting the space helmet. The only way to buy the fans will be to put yet more funds in and buy their favour. That it hasn’t happened yet during the window suggests to me that the saviour is more of the austerity sort than the going for 55 type.
Smugas
The trouble with any solution, extending loans or increasing equity, is that they are required as the price to be paid to maintain the illusion that time has been suspended and that this is the Rangers of the past.
Consequently, there is almost zero prospect of a return, even at break-even, of any loan or investment.
Austerity is the only possible way out of this, and a distinct possibility, even longer term, that without some game-changing event taking place, pre-eminence will never be achieved.
Getting rid of King may be a step on the road to survival, but not a rung in a ladder to the top.
Joking apart beneath the pantomime veneer of going for 55, bears den and all the rest of it I do detect a growing realisation that coming 2nd, having a go in Europe (FFP permitting) and at the very least having some kind of control of the actual on the ground losses (no pun intended) is a helluva result for them at the moment. They can’t be seen to settle for 2nd of course but if it’s presented as a better than the rest case which maintains their relevance for a couple more years whilst football politics develop then the thinking bears would both swallow it and more importantly fund it. And I would include Ashley in that. It goes without saying of course that the SPFL and individual clubs would love it.
Their immediate problem is more one of being unable to quantify, the quantum if you like (how long ago does that seem) if their current reactionary thrashing about model continues.
And credit where it’s due, yesterday, ICT, Partick and the other last minute Dodoo winner, I forget where have been 12 helluva points for them.
Their “helluva result” means nothing, they have run at a trading loss in every year of their existence and continue to do so.
There is no way anyone at Rangers should be taking any satisfaction from that. They are buying any “success” they achieve. It’s really just a continuation of what they were doing before, they have simple replaced tax avoidance with ever increasing debt. A predicted £14m or thereabouts by June of this year.
Disagree. 12 points less and they’ve spent £14m (and you can add the £40 odd million it took to get them there) on being irrelevant in Euro terms. It’s a rediculously expensive way to be relevant, of course it is, and one not open to most clubs, but like it or not they are 2nd (3rd if AFC beat Motherwell), and hence ‘relevant’ and that’s a huge result for them so far. Any attempt to take an alternate view particularly with a comparison to the current very impressive Celtic performance is, if you’ll excuse me, a wee bit childish on both sides.
Trisidium January 29, 2017 at 01:15
EJ I think the trigger % requiring the concert party to offer to buy all shares would be more likely to happen in any debt to equity swap. In that event they would certainly be above the 30-odd % event horizon. King’s shares would not be a bargain at 26p either since his departure would almost certainly see preemption rights disapplied soon after.
=============================
I’ve had a look at the implications of a debt for equity swap on the numbers / percentages previously, and I think that the main parties could avoid the 30% threshhold as long as all the loanees took up the DFE option.
Should King decide to bail out, it would depend very much on who would buy his shareholding, as to how the power sharing would then play out.
I noted from the accounts that the loans from King, the directors (Park and others) and the RRM (Taylor, Letham and others) have all been classified separately, which might be a way of indicating their independence.
I’ve attached an extract from a spreadsheet showing what would happen in a DFE swap at 25p, with only Club1872 investing new money. King’s share would go up to 20.9%, the Directors to 11.65% and the RRM to 20.67%. If the DFE price was set at 20p then the percentages would be around 1% higher for each group.
If Ashley and the Easdales seek to protect their share percentages, it it would mean that they would have to invest new money into the club, which is a scenario I don’t see happening. It would also have the effect of limiting the increase in share percentages of the loanees.
Rangers are spending money they don’t have every year to get to 2nd in the Scottish Premiership. That could easily lead to this club going exactly the same way as the last. Ceasing to exist.
It seems that the support is unwilling to accept anything else, living within their means is not an option, they would rather lose another club.
If you want an example of childishness you need look no further than that.
That has absolutely nothing to do with Celtic, or any other club. It is what they are doing themselves.
I am much more impressed with Aberdeen and Hearts. Aberdeen are competing with them, whilst planning to build a new stadium, and from what I can see doing it in a sustainable way. Hearts are rebuilding their club, planning to increase their stadium’s capacity and moving towards fan ownership.
If Aberdeen finish second, and there is every prospect they will, that will be a much greater achievement in my view.
EASYJAMBO
JANUARY 29, 2017 at 11:56
==========================
Thanks for doing the calculation, however I think if they were doing a debt for equity swap for the full amount the figure would be a bit higher than £10m. That was the figure at June 2016, however the accounts also noted that their would be further borrowing. I think it was c£3.75m, with £2.9m in October 2016 and the rest in March 2017, that’s from memory though.
Bottom line, I think the figure would be about £13.75m, a bit more if there were unexpected costs, for example paying off Barton.
Debt for equity is one thing when there are valuable underlying assets or dividends from future profits- in such cases it is possible to get to a reasoned value for the equity. On the other hand if the underlying assets are perhaps of little value and their are no reasonable prospects of dividends valuing the equity is more of an essay in haruspicy. Perhaps there might be opportunities for tax planning…
Additionally the people who are believe in the RRM in the Sky always showering funds on the Entity with no regard to anything as mundane as a Company and all its needs.
Many men have expensive hobbies only justifiable by the mystery of man maths but I really do not get a hobby of such a magnitude
“haruspicy”
I love this site.
Now, that I know what it means, all I need to do is work this into a conversation!
EJ
David Low is very firmly of the view that if “The Three Bears” were to trigger the threshold, they would most definitely be regarded as a concert party (see Appendix 5 of attachment).
JOENINHO
“Taking the auspices” (inspection of entrails) to divine the outcome of a course of action is just one of many idioms from ancient Rome you would be put through in a Latin class.
In fact our own EasyJambo is an expert Haruspex – only he uses football club accounts instead of dead birds to divine outcomes 🙂
HOMUNCULUS
JANUARY 29, 2017 at 10:40
As Barcabhoy pointed out to me earlier in the week, the ST hike and extra TV cash this year may well see TRFC break even. I agree with your view that Aberdeen finishing second whilst building a stadium would be a greater achievement than TRFC finishing in the runners-up spot, but I don’t think it is unfair to say that things are getting better for TRFC – even from a much lower datum than they would like to admit.
The trouble is that if they up their game to leave Aberdeen and Hearts behind in on-filed terms, they will necessarily incur greater expense when their income is maxed. That is why expectations are a problem for TRFC – much bigger than those at Pittodrie or Tynie.