A guest blog by Auldheid
In the previous blog (http://www.tsfm.scot/how-not-to-govern-scottish-football/), TSFM wrote to Harper Macleod raising questions on their advice supplied to the then SPL Board in February 2013 when the Lord Nimmo Smith Decision re use of EBTs and side letters was announced.
A reply was received from Mr McKenzie on 18th September the gist of which can be discerned in the following reply sent on 4th October.
Dear Mr McKenzie 4th Oct 2014
Thank you for your response of 18th September to my letter of 5th September regarding the consequences of information on the true nature of EBTs for Craig Moore, Ronald De Boer and Tor Andre Flo being withheld from your good selves when establishing in 2012 the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission into the use of EBTs and side letters by Rangers FC from 1999.
In recognition of the points you made about publishing your responses on line, your letter of 18th September will not be published although readers of TSFM will be able to gather from this reply which is being published what those points were.
Anonymity.
It is a matter of real regret that not only was anonymity required, but that Harper MacLeod were used as a conduit to try and elicit a reply from the SPFL or SFA. In terms of anonymity there were three factors at play:
- Security. The individuals asking the questions are aware that any raised concerning Rangers can attract threats from the worst of the Rangers support. We know that they are a minority but nevertheless, as we have recently witnessed, some are ready to turn threat into action. It is a condemnation of Scottish society that fear has played its part in preventing the truth being revealed about Rangers FC’s use of EBTs since 1999.
- Collective. The Scottish Football Monitor is made up of supporters of many clubs in Scottish football and is in effect a collective. The letters reflect to a large extent the thinking and feelings of the majority of readers. If a name is required for any future correspondence from the SPFL or SFA, then it can be addressed to Mr John Macnab, and a Post Box address can be supplied if necessary in addition to this e mail address press@tsfm.scot.
- Accountability. The final factor is the most important because it is why Harper Macleod were approached. It was not just because you were responsible for commissioning the Lord Nimmo Smith enquiry, but because there is absolutely no form of direct accountability by either the SPFL or the SFA to the supporters of Scottish football clubs. Correspondence can be ignored or the content not fully addressed and the customer who pays the wages of both organisations has no means of redress at all. Had there been some oversight in say an Ombudsman type role, it would not have been necessary to involve Harper MacLeod and indeed your good self. We sincerely apologise for doing so along with our thanks for actually responding to our correspondence, but we would like the reasons for our approach being addressed by the clubs who make up both footballing authorities. We hope you pass this particular point on to both SFA and SPFL.
Provenance.
You ask what the provenance is of the information/evidencethat you were given. The answer is we do not know, it was taken from material uploaded mainly in June last year for purposes unknown. Whilst its provenance may be in doubt there is no question as to the veracity of the content of the material itself.
This, when put together, sets out the narrative that prompted our correspondence. This question of provenance simply looks like an excuse for football authority not investigating what the material suggests took place when Duff and Phelps were asked to supply all documents relating to EBTs (no distinction being made) from the inception of the SPL.
Even if the material itself could not be used directly, it should have prompted questions that would have either corrected the narrative or established that the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission was indeed misled either by accident or design, when those documents were not supplied.
The SPFL must surely have the powers to seek the original documents from BDO and the SFA cannot be totally impotent in that regard either.
Then there is the personal knowledge of current SFA President Campbell Ogilvie to draw on. A simple statement explaining why he saw no reason to make any distinction between the irregular DOS REBTs that he launched in 1999 and the later MGMRT EBTs of which he was a beneficiary would surely help clear the air?
Existence of Side Letters.
We note that the Commission were aware of the existence of side letters to Moore, De Boer and Flo at the time of its decision of 28th February 2013 and these were taken into account when determining the appropriate sanction. The existence of side letters is not the issue that was raised in our previous correspondence, it was the nature of the EBTs that was the issue raised. In fact it would seem that the Commission themselves were confused by the switching from the irregular REBT ebts in 2002/03 to the MGMRT EBTs that are subject to further appeal with regard to regularity by HMRC.
The side letters to De Boer and Flo of 30th August and 23 November 2000 related to the DOS REBTs that they were both paid under. It is not known if they had subsequent side letters relating to the MGMRT EBTs , which is possible, but as set out in previous correspondence there were two distinctive types of EBTs and the side letters supplied relate to the earlier irregular type.
The position regarding the Moore EBT is interesting in that whatever EBT side letter was known to the Commission in February 2012 it could only have related to payments made to him under an accompanying side letter from the MGMRT ebts after 2002/03.
That Mr Moore was paid under the REBT scheme in 1999 is a matter of supplied evidence. However there is no record of any side letter in relation to the payment under the 1999 arrangement, which may or may not have been reported in the contract lodged with the SPL and SFA. It was the absence of any side letter in respect of this payment that prevented HMRC pursuing the tax due on it as they did for De Boer and Flo in what has become known as “the wee tax case. “ The evidence of deliberate concealment by the Murray Group of the side letters to De Boer and Flo allowed HMRC to seek repayment outside the normal 6 year time limit.
However the absence of a side letter or tax demand for Mr Moore does not mean this particular payment is not deserving of further scrutiny since
- It was an irregular payment that other clubs could not avail themselves of (as applies to the other two EBTs to De Boer and Flo)
- It is not known if it was reported to the SPL/SFA under the registration rules of that period.
Finally thank you for forwarding our letter of 5th September and previous correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer. Hopefully any further correspondence will be between him and ourselves, first to our email address, later to a PO Box if required.
It is the hope of all readers of The Scottish Football Monitor that the SFA will stop hiding behind the provenance excuse, which is destroying any semblance of integrity and proper governance of Scottish football and they will use their powers to properly acquire the information that will set the record straight and in doing so start to restore some of the lost trust which is essential for the wellbeing of Scottish football.
John Macnab
TSFM
Nice to see them actually engaging.
@Auldheid
You have PM
Its difficult when the original and actual response isn’t available, but reading between the lines they seem more concerned with finding excuses why they might not have been provided with all the evidence, rather than that fact that if they truly weren’t, that would change the case dramatically.
I believe they knew all along what the score was, and they were told what they had to find, and not find.
Thats my opinion.
Another disturbing thing comes to mind here….
Are they actually saying they made the decisions even though they knew there was information that for whatever reason was being held back?
If so, the final decision should have had some form of caveat attached that said the decision was based only on info at hand and that there was potentially info that they were not able to examine.
Maybe someone can put me straight, cheers.
First of all, I congratulate Auldheid on the letter. In my non-legal working life in a fairly cut throat industry and in another life in voluntary advice the format for letters of complaint and/or enquiries for information was the same: keep it brief (no war stories), keep it courteous and ask specifically for a response. Of course this is dependant on an obligation to respond or at least a will to do so. In this case a level of legalese appears to be required and therefore I congratulate him for doing so whilst keeping it brief!
I agree that it looks like they are seeking reasons not to respond rather than answers and I suspect the next move may well be a threat to shut down given the continuing discussion online. The most effective leverage we have here is time, this should not be allowed to go away. Apologies if I’m stating the obvious.
Once again thanks to Auldheid for your great work.Someday,the dam will burst and hopefully the people who supposedly look after our game will be brought to book.
As an aside,the Evening Times has printed the name if the volunteer who puts together the Livi programme.
Hope the guy stays safe.
Also,being reported that no action will be taken wrt crowd trouble at Livi.
Seems the powers that be think that sectarianism and bigotry is less important than the truth printed in a match programme.
Before I get to reading the new blog…
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upthehoops says:
October 6, 2014 at 7:19 am
I noted something at the game yesterday which infuriates me, and I know infuriates fans of other teams too. Scottish Referees never play the correct amount of added time. Six or seven minutes would not have been unfair yesterday, but only three were added. Please note this is not an excuse and Celtic probably wouldn’t have scored anyway, but there is a point of principle here for all teams. Yesterday was just another example. Why are the SFA light years behind everyone else on seemingly everything?
—————————————————————
The arbitrary length of football matches has long irritated me.
As a follower of ice hockey it’s a no-brainer of a problem.
Have a timekeeper.
The ball is in play for an average of 60 odd minutes in a game.
Change to 30 or 35 minutes a half and start/stop the clock when the ref blows his whistle.
Bye bye time wasting.
Hello transparency.
RyanGosling says:
October 5, 2014 at 11:59 pm
===============================================
I have never been one for shying away from difficult debates or defending my position on here and that includes having a go at Celtic and Celtic supporters if I believe it’s merited and an issue that spreads beyond internal club business and affects the wider game.
When I got in from a very puzzling and disappointing game yesterday I noticed a comment – possibky from wottpi – wrt to RD and AMcC which I started to respond to. After quite a few efforts I gave up and decided not to send it as I felt it was something much more suited to a Celtic football site and that’s where I posted it. My decision was simply on the basis that it wasn’t a TSFM issue and often wrt to Rangers there are certain issues raised here where I often declare that the matter IMO is for Bears to decide on.
I try not to personally attack anyone on this site and that goes for McCoist. But there is a clear dividing line IMO between serious club issues which are arising in relation to RD and which I believe are currently more suited to a Celtic only site.
I do think that RD’s nutrition and training ideas are valid and important for Celtic and Scottish Football and I doubt if many posters/lurkers on here would deny the importance of them in this day and age.
However attacking RD on his abilities or apparent lack of them as a manager isn’t one for TSFM IMO at this point. It might well be that that day will soon be upon us but I feel if it arrives it would be more productive for TSFM and Scottish Football to discuss the suitability and reasons of his appointment in the first place.
I saw no ire being expressed at Accy players yesterday – well except for timewasting 🙂 But there was plenty expressed at some Celtic players and the management team. In the crowd around me, at halftime and then the bus home no one took anything away from Hamilton Accies’ performance which we just couldn’t match. The success of the visitors is one of the many recent bright spots in Scottish Football.
Celtic fans know we don’t have a ‘rightful place’ in terms of supremacy but we won’t accept some players and a management team team that is unfit for purpose and showing little sign of improvement. We need more than pasta to solve the problem and online personal attacks on the manager aren’t the answer but I’m sure the Board will get the message.
I have been in the camp of giving RD more time but yesterday has brought me to the brink of believing that time isn’t the issue but other much deeper flaws. If I am right then these will IMO be issues well worth discussing here. As usual time will tell 😥
Agreed, Torre.
It truly saddens me when the truth can be attacked like this and, at the same time, the ugly incidents at Livi can be brushed under the carpet.
I would warn you all to beware next season should this outfit gain promotion to the Premier League.
Revenge is to be sought against those who kicked them when they were down.
For every kick they were given, they will give out ten.
Oh, and if Ryan doesn’t believe me, just have a look at their comments over in the Den.
Just a wee follow-up on those tweets from Gregory Ioannidis from last night. Part of his current on-going twitter chat (read from the bottom one up):
Gregory Ioannidis @LawTop20
2h
…entity does not necessarily have legal existence nor can it enter into contracts [2].
Gregory Ioannidis @LawTop20
2h
because all acts must be done via a legal entity that exists in law. A ‘recognisable’ [1]…
Gregory Ioannidis
@LawTop20
@TheClumpany Correct. But attention must be paid to the entity that holds the registration & membership and consequently has legal existence
10:12am – 6 Oct 14
ecobhoy says:
October 6, 2014 at 10:15 am
@Auldheid
You have PM
=================================
I see the little clique of TD’ers I have recently attracted have excelled themselves this time 😆
First up, all power to your pen Auldheid.
In response to monthehoops @ 10.36 my take for what it is worth is simply that no, Harper Macleod weren’t hiding behind misinformation precisely because of the change in notification dates. They seem to have played a very straight bat albeit they may have been surprised that it was a distinctly average and rapidly tiring (one might even say disinterested) spin bowler who played all the of overs against them despite several top ‘fast’ men waiting in the wings.
Wrt the above of 11.36, this is what Gregory Ioannidis tweeted last night:
Gregory Ioannidis
@LawTop20
I inderstand that the European Parliament is showing an interest in the Rangers matter.
8:48pm – 5 Oct 1
Gregory Ioannidis
@LawTop20
It is not a question of whether it is a new club, but whether its registration and membership are valid. The answer detetmines the rest.
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Just a follow-up on the late show of last night, not to distract from the new and excellent blog by Auldheid.
Re the Livi programme again.
Sadly, the Glasgow Evening Times have published the name of the article’s author.
Even more sadly, his photograph has now appeared in the Den.
I really hope nothing ugly comes of this totally irresponsible action by the Times.
What were they thinking of, especially with all that happened after the “who are these people” outcry?
SMSM at their finest!
Another excellent effort from Auldheid, please keep up the good work on our behalf.
John MacNab!
The name rang bells, but I have to confess that I had to refresh my memories of John Buchan’s novel of the same title: about the three guys who,using the collective name of’John MacNab”, warn assorted gentry and pseudo-gentry that they would poach deer and salmon on their highland estates.They are aided in this by an ‘athletic journalist’!
It would be very good indeed if our ‘John MacNab’ were to be helped by any kind of journalist in the quest for full and open responses.
Auldheid’s initiative has successfully opened the beginnings of a dialogue.
We ,the’collective TSFM’, will try to maintain our focus on what we believe to have been the dereliction of duty of the Football Authorities, and the shabby, underhand, hole-in-the-corner actions by which they demonstrated their disregard for truth and honour, and threw ‘Sporting Integrity’ to the wind.
Whether that was done out of fear or favour, they did not accept the truth that one of the biggest apples in the football barrel was, and had been for years, rotten to the core, and that that rottenness might possibly have been know about for years, and should have been properly and openly dealt with.
And it MUST be dealt with properly.It is not enough for the Authorities to wish, hope,that the new club will implode and disappear and cease to be a problem.
Sporting justice , the integrity of our Football Administration, and trust and confidence in its Administrators has to be restored.
In my opinion.
On the Livvy matter, the ‘Herald’ reports today that “Rangers have reported Livingston to the SPFL..” I wonder on what basis? Bad-mouthing a fellow-member of the League?
Would the SPFL dare to ‘discipline’ Livvy for telling the truth? I’d love them to try!
John Clark says:
October 6, 2014 at 1:06 pm
Oh I do hope this goes all the way. I just hope the Livingston board are prepared to stand up for the truth and not just bow down to whatever pressure comes their way.
Clearly the Glasgow Evening Times has decided to back McCoist and have saved him from coming out with another ‘who are these people’ moment by outing the writer of the program article themselves! Very noble of them.
Auldheid,
Congratulations on your very astute response to Harper McLeod’s letter dated 18 September 2014 on our behalf.
I’ve sent you a PM re the DOS EBTs
Haud the bus JC.
“It is not enough for the Authorities to wish, hope, that the new club will implode and disappear and cease to be a problem.”
Since when was that the chosen outcome? Unless you’re suggesting that the Rangers mk3 File is sitting on Campbell’s desk all nice and shiny and desperate to get onto the field of play.
In which case, as you were. It would at least be comforting to know that someone, somewhere had a plan!
John Clark 12.59
My prize for 4 years perfect attendance at the Munro was The Adventures of Richard Hanney by John Buchan.
His 39 Steps was my first introduction to books I wanted to read as opposed being forced to.
The Rover, Wizard, Hotspur and Adventure stuff in hard back form.
I’ll be back on topic later re Mr Lindsay.
From the Edinburgh Evening News:
“Livingston chief Gordon McDougall has apologised to Rangers after the Ibrox club took exception to what they described as “outrageous and entirely unacceptable” comments made about them in Saturday’s matchday programme.”
So, according to the Ibrox club, the article is unacceptable but not untrue.
‘Outrageous’, perhaps, it’s certainly caused rage amongst the TRFC support. ‘Unacceptable’ undoubtedly – for the TRFC support. But where’s the word ‘untrue’, where’s the denial of what the article claimed? Come on, TRFC, if you want to fool more than the gullible, you must do better!
World record for the number of mock outrage and needless apologies?
Smugas says:
October 6, 2014 at 1:44 pm
‘.Haud the bus JC.’
———–
OK, amendment: fifth line from bottom ,insert between ‘hope’ and ‘that’ the words ‘as I think they must secretly do’. 😀
Ronnie Deila has been brought in with the task of taking Celtic into the 21st century with regard to footballing philosophy, professionalism, training and conditioning etc etc.
Tic fans need to give him time as oppose to running him out of town a la PLG. If they truly believe they don’t need T’Rangers then what harm is their from missing out on a league title this year if the long terms aims and a better future are achieved?
Lennon may have got results but the fact he is still in punditry is perhaps a sign of how he and his methods are viewed.
I believe all will turn out OK as it is early days and Celtic are not far off the pace.
McCoist on the other hand is doing a fine job in sticking to his task of working his way through the divisions. However the focus is now changing as the fans realise he is not producing a system or the players that will produce the goods if promotion to the premiership is achieved. While I appreciate he has had a lot to deal with, other managers in the lower divisions have played and produced far more entertaining and equally winning football with far fewer resources.
McCoist has never been and never will be decent manager regardless of how many big time charlies he sticks in his squads.
Just a word of warning that some of our Trolling friends have been showing up again, changing their passwords to get ready for a fresh bit of jolly-japing on the blog.
Please do not feed!
wottpi says:
October 6, 2014 at 2:28 pm
‘..Ronnie Deila has been brought in with the task of taking Celtic into the 21st century with regard to footballing philosophy, professionalism, training and conditioning etc etc.’
———-
I don’t dispute that for a moment,wottpi.
But this would suggest that the Celtic Board must have believed that there was something wrong ( at player and previous manager level) with the then existing philosophy, professionalism etc.
Was there? And, with all due respect to the members of the Board, what do they know about assessing those kinds of attitudes and attributes? How were they led, and by whom, to get into questions of diet and ‘philosophy’, and to Deila specifically as being just the very dab in those areas?
I’m not knocking Deila here.
Just reflecting on whether the choice of Deila was motivated by buzz-word faddism, and the fact that he is a very personable individual who pitches a good case and talks a good game.He may very well become a 21st century great. I hope he does.
I’m just a wee shade concerned that he might have been over-optimistic in his estimate of how long it might take for his philosophy to be translated into consistently decent results on the pitch.
We will wait and see.
1 – well done to ‘Auldheid’, I’m looking forward to more
2 – the point about the Livi article. Shocking that the guy’s name and photo have ben published by the smsm.
Good on the Livi chairman – apologising but also a veiled aknowledgement that whilst the article ‘offended’ “the people”, it was also the TRUTH.
Scottish Cup draw
Dumbarton -v- TRFC
Why are Hibs and Hertz not entering the competition until the next round (the same as the SPFL premiership teams?
jimlarkin says:
October 6, 2014 at 3:12 pm
Scottish Cup draw
Dumbarton -v- TRFC
Why are Hibs and Hertz not entering the competition until the next round (the same as the SPFL premiership teams?
________________________________________________
Cos they were in the Premiership last season. If you remember that was one of the indicators that the SFA had not accepted TRFC as the same club – because in 2012 they were drawn in this round – and not given the bye that Hearts and Hibs get this term because of their status last term.
Cos they were in the Premiership last season. If you remember that was one of the indicators that the SFA had not accepted TRFC as the same club – because in 2012 they were drawn in this round – and not given the bye that Hearts and Hibs get this term because of their status last term.
—
Absolutely correct. This is one of the unanswerables. Rangers finished second in the SPL in May 2012. TRFC made its Scottish Cup debut in round two on September 29, 2012, at Mosset Park, Forres.
Sevconians have argued that this was one of the consequences of Rangers going into administration. But Hearts and other clubs who have gone into administration have consistently entered the Scottish Cup at the stage appropriate to their finishing position in the league the previous season.
If the Scottish football authorities wanted to make an exception in the case of the club that finished second in the SPL in May 2012, what statement ever emerged to explain this? None. It never happened.
Apolgies in advance if any of you consider this post Of Topic
With reference to the reporting of Ronny Deila’s comments on diet and fitness. In all of the reports that were linked in posts on TSFM I never once saw any quotes or attribution that RD was talking about the players diet and fitness under Neil Lennon’s management last season.
In my opinion RD has only commented on the fitness of the players when they returned to pre-season training very soon after a long, intense and emphatic title winning 2013/14 season.
Additionally it is clear that no matter how fit the players were last season, they are not fit enough to press their opponents in their half of the field of play in the way that RD (and John Collins) would like them to. This was very apparent in the 2nd period of the home Europa League match v Dinamo Zagreb and in their SPFL matched either side of their EL games.
IMO the current Celtic playing might never attain the consistent level of pressing desired by their management as this is not how they have been developed as players. A balance needs to be sought in the short term otherwise Celtic supporters and fans need to tighten their seatbelts for a rollercoaster season.
Would that the SMSM had taken the time to think through what RD had actually said rather than approach NL with, no doubt leading questions asking for his quote about “the lack of fitness of his players last season” 🙄
Well done Auldheid. You are to be commended for your hard work, integrity and true grit.
Also on the players fitness and RD’s comments theme. I was listening to BBC Scotland on Saturday and they almost to a man were of the opinion that Scottish players need to learn these disciplines of diet and fitness. They even compared the situation RD has at Celtic with that faced by PLG at Rangers (1872). This struck me as rather odd as I am of the opinion that most of the current Celtic squad are not natural born Scots and have a fair amount of continental influence in their previous careers. That being the case surely they would already have been exposed to the Continental way of doing things and know what is expected of them. If I rememeber correctly the situation faced by PLG at Rangers (1872) was rather different as they did, at that time, have a core of Scottish born players in their squad. The only other explanation is that when a continental player comes to Scotland we somehow drag them down to our level 🙂
John Clark says:
October 6, 2014 at 3:01 pm
Hear where you are coming from but IMHO the ‘it ain’t broke don’t fix it attitude’ has led to the one step forwards two steps back ‘progression’ for Scottish Football.
For every good Celtic result against Barcelona etc in Europe there are a string of howlers against ‘lesser’ opposition where it can be seen players often have better speed, skill, stamina and tactical awareness.
That pattern is tenfold worse with the other Scottish Euro representatives.
We can all enjoy good exciting games in the SPFL and at the time the skill level looks good but the reality is when faced with half decent teams from elsewhere we are often found wanting.
I’m pretty sure most teams these days do health checks and diet plans for their players. Even in Scotland. They will have staff who concentrate just on this, tracking players weight and health weekly if not daily.
It may be players don’t always do what they’re told or the health/diet plans aren’t all equally good but I’m sure it’s not a case of players having a poor diet and being unfit. The modern game requires a kind of super-fitness now, what with long seasons, the widespread ‘pressing game’ and so on so maybe that is what’s meant.
Re RD’d fitness and diet remarks;
I remember that when Arsene Wenger first arrived at Arsenal, he made remarks of a similar nature. He ultimately revolutionised English football culture in respect of fitness and nutrition. I have to admit I assumed that people in Scottish football who were part of that culture (and there were more than just a few) would have introduced it into Scottish Football. The top clubs in Scotland are awash with people who had been exposed to scientifically designed fitness and nutrition regimes.
My surprise is that Deila has had to introduce it at Celtic. Look at the managers in Scotland who have plied their trade in post-Wenger England; Martin O’Neill, Gordon Strachan, Neil Lennon, Derek McInnes, Stuart McCall, Alan Stubbs, Craig Levein, Walter Smith, Tommy Craig, Tony Mowbray, Terry Butcher. There are probably more. Are we to believe that something as universally lauded as the Wenger method passed every one them by?
I do know from my time at CP that the players always had breakfast and lunch at the stadium at either end of their morning training sessions. How scientifically put together it was I am not at all sure, but there was great emphasis placed on the players not having breakfast at home – instead waiting until they arrived at work.
I see that the re-doubtable Graham Spiers ( or should that be the doubtable Graham Spiers ) has tweeted that Rangers ‘restarted’.
Without really checking, I’m sure there aren’t sections in company law or football asociation rules that cover this handy procedure.
Can the man not just face facts and be honest and accurate in his musings? These continual fudges when referring to TRFC only encourage the nonsense of what the Scottish footballing environment has had to put up with over the last few years.
Journalist? ….as my old teachers who marked my homework used to say…5/10, must try harder.
As a long term lurker, havent written in for months, then three comes along nearly all at once. Must be getting more angry in my old age. The movie Network comes to mind..”I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take it any more!”
Big Pink says:
October 6, 2014 at 5:37 pm
I also assumed that dietary experts would already have been hard at work in most Scottish Football clubs for some time.
But I can see the attraction to the tabloid press of going down the ‘fish suppers banned’ route rather than possibly concentrating on training techniques.
I remember in the last few days reading a post about the quite major changes which have been taking place in football training.
Apparently the ‘in-thing’ these days isn’t just being fit enough to compete at full stretch for 90 minutes – I say that with a ‘theoretical’ tongue in cheek btw – but to have explosive fitness throughout the match.
This is apparently being able to react and have the ability to beat an opponent to the ball in a 50/50 situation. I’m sure it was described in much more detail and is more complex but that’s what I remember.
I can see the obvious advantages of that approach and have no problem with it when say reacting to a ball to prevent a corner or stopping it going out of play and doing something with it, or stopping it reaching an opponent and such like.
But in a man on man situation there’s the little issue of ‘bottle’ involved and you can have all the ‘explosive fitness’ in the world but never commit to a possibly bruising encounter by being that little bit slow.
Personally looking at Celtic this season the very basics need to be addressed like passing and trapping of balls and attacking the other goal with a sense of urgency to put pressure on it.
So all these ‘tweaks’ are good and should be introduced but I am left mystified at Parkhead trying to decide whether the players are following the manager’s instructions. simply ignoring them or whatever.
This, however, isn’t the place to dwell on Celtic overmuch as that will resolve one way or another in due course. But it would be a pity if new methods ended up being junked for the wrong reasons. That would be a loss to Scottish Football in the longer term.
The Livvy programme highlights one if not the main issue imo with thIs Govan club and our smsm media. The term liquidation does not seem to have applied to the team that played at Ibrox. Hopefully the Govan club takes this to the sfa and once and for all we can get it confirmed that the term liquidation did apply to the team. The arrogance of the Govan fans that the club that they followed is the same team is a insult to all fans and another kick in the teeth for all the creditors. Shame on the Govan fans and shame on our smsm. I know we are sick of ocnc but we are only sick because it still has not been addressed correctly.
Auldheid,
I think the tone and content of your correspondence catches the mood very well. I’m not quite sure what the provenance issues are but there was a lot of stuff flying about concerning the discount option scheme (DOS) in June 2013 so perhaps you are referring to that documentation. If the Charlotte material gets aired in January in the Collyer Bristow proceedings then perhaps provenance will no longer be at dispute.
It seems you have got some traction and may make headway.
valentinesclown says:
October 6, 2014 at 7:18 pm
“I know we are sick of ocnc but we are only sick because it still has not been addressed correctly.”
__________________________
Things are never properly addressed when those who’s duty it is to do the addressing; know, don’t like and fear the inevitable answer!
Auldheid thanks for your great work
bad capt madman says:
October 6, 2014 at 6:15 pm
bcm,
If the tweet you refer to is the same as the one re-tweeted by PMGB then it’s dated September 2013. Don’t know why it’s appearing now.
Still can’t understand where Spiers gets his ‘restarted’ idea from, though, and it’s an indication of just how out of touch he is with supporters all over Scotland if he thinks it was viewed like that, anywhere, anytime!
first post so just the reason I actually registered
many years ago people bought a newspaper in the morning (ok tuilette paper of the record and sun variety) on their way to work (anyone remember 95% emplyoment), but that is what people did accept it.
They read it on the way to work on the bus or train, swapped papers at tea break.
Those days are gone
Is it a sad endicatement of us all that we now have woken up to the fact a roll of toilet paper is in fact just a roll of toilet paper, or is it a good thing that we are embracing sites like this.
There are contributors to this site who have actually shown some intelligence, my goodness some posters can actually phrase a question, compared to tT_S_swhateveryoucallthem “hi can I have some gossip preferably to be collected in a public house or semi exclusive restaruant on someone elses tab”
(sidebar question is it
sports journalist of the year
sportwriter of the year
sports commenter of the year
I would just like to see the whats engraved on the trophy, oh shoot someones doing a recount of trophies already)
Its not just the site, it is the fact contributors have shown more ability and commitment to the concept of a genuine fourth estate, than 20 pence a day subscription toilet paper.
THAT IS THE POINT
NOTICE TO ALL
success is turning up at your local supporters club laughing your ass of your team getting gubbed and having fun, and showing off your 99 pound season book (cup games included, European matches are void as we would have to be on drugs to get there))
Am I correct in thinking another interim report is due from BDO on 30/11/14?
Maybe we will get a carve up (between the Lawyers) over the CB “Charlotte discloures”.
ECO @ 6.49pm.
WRT progress.
I remember Scotland having a highly respected SFA coach called Andy Roxborough.He later became Scotland manager.I recall him saying that coaching in Scotland needed overhauled.Kids should be taught skills,not tactics.Facilities needed to be improved.
That was in 1982 and Mr Roxborough,if I’m not mistaken went on to be head of technical develovement for UEFA.
Dr Jo Venglos,much chastised by CFC fans,although he brought Luborir Moravcic to CFC was ridiculed for his new ideas and approach to training,diet etc at Celtic.
Funnly enough,these plans are now accepted by and large at most major clubs and DR Jo is now a high heid yin wrt FIFA/UEFA coaching.
I’m auld enough to give a new guy a we bit of leeway.The end of the season will decide where Deila will end up.If he’s being chastised for trying to make so called professionals better and those so called pros are unhappy with seeing their comfort zone removed,then more power to the manager.
A few months ago,Billy Stark,who is doing a great job with the Scottish colts,said that Messi would probably have fell out the Scottish system because he was too wee.
I grew up with Joe McBride,Willie Wallace,Stevie Chalmers.Dixie Deans,Kenny Dalgiesh,Jinky,Bobby Lennox,Willie Henderson,Jim Forrest,Henry Hall,Donald Ford,Drew busby,john Robertson,Jim O’rourke,Alec Edwards etc.
They’ve all got one thing in common.They’re all smaller than me.
I’m sure their diet was totally different.IIRC the chipshop in Auchterarder was a regular stop off point for team buses on their way back to Glasgow.
Times have changed though.
Chips or not,I picture Jinky,wee Bobby Lennox etc running at these defences.
Carnage.Skill,pace,everything you think your forward line should have,fish suppers or not.
It’s not rocket science(copyright The Bunnet 1994)
There was a very good ‘re-boot’ of John McNab by Andrew Greig a few years ago called ‘The Return of John McNab’ highly recommended
Keep up the good work, Auldheid. This collective doesn’t do walking away.
——-
It’s quite something when one issue of a football programme can state a basic, obvious fact that so many professional journalist have, for two years, avoided, pussy-footed around or twisted. The situation is farcical. Worse than that, though, I find it quite sinister. How can elements of the press point to something they know is true and highlight it as if it were something akin to incitement to riot? Is it really just to boost sales and website visits by generating controversy? They must be utterly desperate or utterly under instruction from somewhere. More outrage at the truth than at sectarian singing. What a disgrace of a profession. How close is the Evening Times now to being, eh, “defunct”?
And another thing, can any Gretna 2008 fans clarify how their team is described in opposing team’s programmes? Surely a similar dilemma faces the editors on how to mention previous matches, stats etc relation to the previous Gretna (if such a link is made).
A lateral thought
If Henrik Larsson had become Celtic Mgr instead of Ronnie Deila
And
Had behaved exactly the same and made the same comments in the media
And
Had got the same results on the park as Ronnie Deila had achieved
Would the Celtic support be as disgruntled as they are just now?
I doubt it
I think they would have given him until the end of the season at the very least
So maybe theres a moral lesson in there somewhere
Judge a Mgr by his results
But
Don`t judge him too soon
TSFM says:
October 6, 2014 at 2:45 pm
Just a word of warning that some of our Trolling friends have been showing up again, changing their passwords to get ready for a fresh bit of jolly-japing on the blog.
Please do not feed!
________________________________________
Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
I’m watching out for them 😉
I see Cowdenbeath have had their request to re-instate their weekend game turned down. Looking at the SPFL rules, it states –
Postponement and International Selection
G7 A Club shall be entitled to apply to the Board for the postponement of any Official
Match where three or more of its Players who would otherwise have participated
in such match are unavailable through international selection and, following receipt
of such an application, the Board may postpone and rearrange the relevant Official
Match in accordance with Rule G3.
Now, Mr Moshni is suspended for 2 games so his international call up is surely void. That leaves only Zaliukas and Sheils on international duty.
Anyone care to explain why Cowdenbeath had their request turned down?
Anyone in the SMSM care to ask the SPFL or TRFC?
Re Livi Programme
From the Bears Den
“Apparently they said it was our first ever visit to Livingston’s stadium in their program. Even if we were a new club it would be our second visit because we played Albion Rovers there last season. F…… retards.
If they had won – big
if
– would they have been claiming a win over a 2 year old club or a 142 year old club?
Exactly, stupid c……
Livingston probably thought they were being clever. Then again when I say Livingston, am I talking about ferranti amateurs, ferranti thistle, or meadowbank thistle?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
With the most insightful comment being
It’s only going to get worse next year in the SPFL
Given their recent history of administrations I think that the accuracy of Livi’s matchday programme is surely irrefutable.
Extracted from Auldheid’s post above;
“… and in doing so [the SFA] starts to restore some of the lost trust which is essential for the wellbeing of Scottish football…”
===========================
And when will the penny drop at Hampden that your final sentence is the fundamental issue here: trust?
Well done again Auldheid and helpers. It must be time consuming and frustrating but it’s a very worthwhile activity to keep the spotlight on Ogilvie / Regan and the other scoundrels of Scottish football.
A well deserved chapeau !
Strange
City websites new mentions of Worthington and Manson Gold and Assets Claim
We get
All of a sudden kerfuffle over McCoist who won’t move (till he gets paid)
All of a sudden other stuff
And the usual CW eats babies etc
As per, SMSM paid lackeys print to order
Cued news is no news
Back at the ranch
Tens of Thousands of pounds a week keep on disappearing for nothing
Spivs rolling in it as long as they can (get away with it)
Bears been ripped off on an hourly basis
No sign of `Accounts`, or AGM or anything
It`s all about the money really
Losing rather lost track of all the times Bears Alerted
mtp
Floculent apoidea @ 9.38pm
Casting aside the whispered myth of the grand establishment conspiracy I genuinely think the media see appeasement to the blue loyal as the simplest way to pander to the masses, the path of least resistance if you will.
In so doing I think they hugely over-estimate the influence of the blue corner, and similarly, completely underestimate the strength of character of what they consider the minority, regardless of the siting of right and wrong in the issue.
bad capt madman says:
October 6, 2014 at 6:15 pm
Allyjambo says:
October 6, 2014 at 7:56 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No great fan of the man’s journalistic skills but I feel it’s only fair to point out that Spiers has described them as a ‘new club’ It was on a radio Scotland broadcast somewhere around the turn of the year. The very same one where TE made a complete braying ass of himself, IMO, by making his ‘walks like a duck…’ comment.
causaludendi says:
October 7, 2014 at 2:54 am
No great fan of the man’s journalistic skills but I feel it’s only fair to point out that Spiers has described them as a ‘new club’ It was on a radio Scotland broadcast somewhere around the turn of the year. The very same one where TE made a complete braying ass of himself, IMO, by making his ‘walks like a duck…’ comment.
==========================================
Spiers has been consistent in the view they are a new club. In fact, he is the only MSM writer I can recall who has made such a statement. Having said that he always immediately qualifies his statement by saying along the lines of ‘but, it’s no big thing’. Clearly he views it as nothing other than a technicality and ultimately regards Rangers now as Rangers then. Were the current club to win the League Cup this season I doubt very much if Spiers would be writing about it being their first trophy.
For me there can be no doubt they are a new club. For me there can also be no doubt that the SFA in a state of panic agreed to have the waters muddied on this one as they feared certain consequences if they insisted otherwise. After all, Spiers lone voice is evidence that they knew the media would not have the guts to tell the truth.
As for how the current Rangers react whenever an issue arises like it did at the weekend. It is a mixture of the King with no clothes, and the school bully who knows most of the other children will back him as they’d rather be in his gang than the single person willing to stand up to him.
ianagain says:
October 6, 2014 at 8:50 pm
Am I correct in thinking another interim report is due from BDO on 30/11/14?
============================
Due by 30/11, I think. Last year’s was published on 15/11/13. Reports can be found here: http://www.bdo.co.uk/services/business-restructuring/rfc-2012-plc-formerly-the-rangers-football-club-plc-in-liquidation
iamacant says:
October 6, 2014 at 10:44 pm
I see Cowdenbeath have had their request to re-instate their weekend game turned down. Looking at the SPFL rules, it states –
Postponement and International Selection
G7 A Club shall be entitled to apply to the Board for the postponement of any Official Match where three or more of its Players who would otherwise have participated in such match are unavailable through international selection and, following receipt of such an application, the Board may postpone and rearrange the relevant Official Match in accordance with Rule G3.
Now, Mr Moshni is suspended for 2 games so his international call up is surely void. That leaves only Zaliukas and Sheils on international duty.
Anyone care to explain why Cowdenbeath had their request turned down?
Anyone in the SMSM care to ask the SPFL or TRFC?
=======================================================
I think it’s fair game to mock Rangers delusions of grandeur in this matter but I guess at the time they requested the postponement, they were entitled to do so, so permission was granted automatically.
Circumstances having changed, it was obvious that Cowdenbeath should try to reinstate the original Saturday fixture date because it would make more money (£20k plus)for them than a midweek game. The Cowdenbeath request was refused apparently because events happening after the original decision don’t give grounds for reviewing that decision. You may think that that’s a crock and that such short-sightedness works against the member clubs’ interests but I couldn’t possibly comment. I’ve no idea whether or not Rangers were consulted by the SPFL in respect of the Cowdenbeath appeal.
Blu,
I’d have thought the Cowdenbeath chairman could speak for Rangers! 😆
ulyanova says:
October 7, 2014 at 10:36 am
Blu,
I’d have thought the Cowdenbeath chairman could speak for Rangers! 😆
======================================
Both manager and chairman have behaved with great dignity in this dispute.
Danish Pastry says:
October 6, 2014 at 11:36 am
“Gregory Ioannidis @LawTop20 2h
…entity does not necessarily have legal existence nor can it enter into contracts [2].”
——————————–
This goes to the nub of the old club new club debate and also has a bearing on Lord Nimmo Smith’s commission decisions. At para 20, LNS states :
Subsequently a definition of a club is given that we would all recognise as it encompasses the owner and operator.
Reference 2 above, clearly envisages definitions to be in alignment with UEFA policy.
However Reference 1 (with my capitalisation) seeks to distance the club from its contractual obligations. It seems to me analogous to the age of legal responsibility where below that age a person is considered not to be culpable for their actions. However the UEFA standpoint that a club is a legal entity makes more sense since at the very least a club has to contract with the league bodies it engages with and be bound by their decisions.
Reference 1 in distancing the club from the owner and operator quarantines any sanctions regime. It ensures that sanctions fall on the liquidated owner and operator and that the new club is not encumbered with the consequences of its predecessors actions. In a sporting context this is not logical since it would invite (and possibly already has done) the continuous phoenixing of clubs that ran into financial difficulties.
causaludendi says:
October 7, 2014 at 2:54 am
bad capt madman says:
October 6, 2014 at 6:15 pm
Allyjambo says:
October 6, 2014 at 7:56 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No great fan of the man’s journalistic skills but I feel it’s only fair to point out that Spiers has described them as a ‘new club’ It was on a radio Scotland broadcast somewhere around the turn of the year. The very same one where TE made a complete braying ass of himself, IMO, by making his ‘walks like a duck…’ comment.
________________________________
You are indeed correct to point that out though it does tend to indicate a man who bends with the breeze. I feel Spiers knows the truth, and wants to show he is smarter than the Traynors etc, but is caught between his loyalty to Rangers (IL) (or bows to editorial pressure) and the truth, and, as we see with his ‘restarted’ club nonsense, seeks to get us all to ‘move on’ by creating the veneer of a smarter than average journo while slipping in a subliminal message from time to time to deflect us from the truth and, so, at the same time, keep in with the ‘thinking’ bears.
In my opinion, he possibly has the knowledge and ability to be a good journalist but doesn’t have enough dignity to throw off the shackles of a lifetime of writing the accepted norm while touching his forelock in the direction of Ibrox and David Murray (even though he may not have partaken of the lamb), and so can’t bring himself to write the undiluted truth.
Castofthousands says:
October 7, 2014 at 10:52 am
6 0 Rate This
————
I still don’t understand the quoted LNS statement.
As you say, it invites continuous phoenixing of clubs. Makes no sporting or legal sense.
Gregory hasn’t really let any more of the legal cat out of the EU bag, though.
Allyjambo says:
October 7, 2014 at 11:08 am
=======================================================
I don’t think we should ignore the fact that he will also have in mind his personal safety and I certainly wouldn’t hold that against him – especially as his job brings him into direct contact with elements of the Rangers support capable of giving him grief. And as we know that ‘grief’ has many forms and can affect family and friends as well.
I think he’s a freelance journo these days and with the state the media industry is in he probably doesn’t get paid enough to make himself a target especially when the Scottish Football Authorities remain in hiding and do nothing.
ecobhoy says:
October 7, 2014 at 12:04 pm
I don’t think we should ignore the fact that he will also have in mind his personal safety and I certainly wouldn’t hold that against him – especially as his job brings him into direct contact with elements of the Rangers support capable of giving him grief. And as we know that ‘grief’ has many forms and can affect family and friends as well.
———————————
Correct but what a truly abysmal state of affairs.
Allyjambo says:
October 7, 2014 at 11:08 am
‘.. it does tend to indicate a man who bends with the breeze. I feel Spiers knows the truth, and wants to show he is smarter than the Traynors etc, but is caught between his loyalty to Rangers (IL) (or bows to editorial pressure) and the truth..’
———————
And while those who argue ( and there are some) that football writers are ‘dependent’ on clubs, individual managers for their ‘copy’, may a point in relation to the ‘gossip’ and ‘PR’ that attaches to the ‘football-as-entertainment’ industry, they seem to miss the fundamental point that the journalistic duty is to ask serious questions about football clubs as businesses, and of the actions of Football Administration and Administrators which seem to work against the Sport as Sport.
To be derelict in that duty and become virtually a paid/unpaid PR man for a club (any club) or the Football Authorities is unforgivable.
Had the likes of Spiers and the others got right in there at the start of all the nonsense ( literally many years ago) instead of meekly accepting what SDM ,and all subsequent boards operating at Ibroxsaid, and then, when the inevitable happened, had got right in about the SFA/SPL/SFA, the likelihood is that Scottish Football would have been able to stand honest and all square with Integrity in Sport, and a new, non-league club would honestly and fairly be getting readied to apply for admission to the professional leagues, ready to create a new history..
Turning blind eyes to what was happening in our game has seriously damaged any confidence in anything that the succulent lamb brigade have had, or now have, to say.
In my opinion.
Agree with you again eco
re personal safety.
My take on Speirs is that he is effectively riding the oc/nc wave whereby he knows damn fine that it is a new club technically that is winning the trophies but that it has all the hallmarks of the old one, and, to all intents and purposes OUTWITH LEGAL ENTITY, is the old one.
Journalists, particularly nowadays, have that luxury of artistic licence. For the absence of doubt the two parties who do not hold that luxury are creditors and the authorities, record keepers etc.
The difference to the keefs of this world is Speirs knows damn fine he’s doing it, precisely why it is (should be) a big deal and precisely why the move-on brigade are so keen, in fact need to win out on the back of nothing but hot air.
I’m happy to move on, its just I’ll never accept their version of events as anything other than just their version however widely and unfairly published (that is to say unfair relative to the column inches given over to the other side of the coin) , largely thanks to the efforts of this site and its predecessor.
Spiers is resorting to inventing new words to add to the English lexicon in order to avoid offending anyone, but still being able to claim (when it suits him) that TRFC are a new club. Recently he’s used the terms “re-founded” (How can you “re-found” anything? You can’t give birth to the same thing twice!) and “re-started”! Ridiculous semantics to try and appease everyone, but which only serve to highlight the general cowardly cravenness of the MSM – including Spiers.
Good Afternoon
Just when we thought the old club/new club arguement had been done to death it raises it’s ugly head.
There was someone on SSB last night who suggested legal action for telling untruths about “The Rangers”
I say bring it on.
In my opinion events will unfols which will settle the argument once and for all, although the deluded bears may not like the result.
I think that if there was an insolvency event and there was any suggestion of a second insolvency event and a 25 point deduction which would keep TRFC where they are or put them in danger of relegation then there would be an almighty clamour to prove that they are a new club and should only be deducted 10 points.
Once again if they are regarded by the conflicted ones who run the game as the same club why have they not collected the penalties imposed on “Rangers”.
I suspect we all know the answer.
Time after time we are subjected to the hubris and sense of entitlement which they have and yet still no sympathy for the creditors that they left in the lurch
If you are not the same club accept that TRFC were unfairly catapulted into the bottom tier of Scottish Football.
If you are the same club how about a bit of humility and contrition and a contribution to the creditors which you owe.
My message to the bears is to be careful what you wish for.
Hoopy 7 says:
October 7, 2014 at 12:51 pm
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Good Afternoon
Just when we thought the old club/new club arguement had been done to death it raises it’s ugly head.
There was someone on SSB last night who suggested legal action for telling untruths about “The Rangers”
I say bring it on.
In my opinion events will unfold which will settle the argument once and for all, although the deluded bears may not like the result.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Events have already done so : IIRC Dundee Utd refused Sevco’s outrageous claim for compensation when a player recently moved from Ibrox to the Arabs.
Sevco did not appeal United’s claim that Sevco had only been in existence for two years therefore that was the limit of the compensation they were entitled to. IIRC.
Hoopy 7
My immediate apology to the blog for the following which is entirely unresearched. I trust you’ll put me right.
My understanding of the 15/25 debate is that RFC* would be subject to the higher penalty it being (potentially) the 2nd event to occur to the operator owning the club in the permitted 5 years.
The entire reasoning behind the higher penalty was to stop clubs like Dundee etc hitting the reset button via admin (you can use that one Graham 😉 ) then realising that to do so was in some way advantageous to the club and so hitting it again. The key is that the club was still around to benefit and thus procedures were required to close the loophole.
The only reason to me, a layman, that there is any doubt at all in the sevco situation is that the writer of the law in no way envisaged that, unlike an admin scenario, a club would be liquidated and live to tell the tale. It might still be around, apparently, but that is a failing of the licencing authorities not to distinguish between the two, not the rules for governing the treatment of a new club coming along after a liquidation event pretending to be the same thing and then trying to hit a reset button on the strength of them being new new, as opposed to old new!
Applying the 25point mark doesn’t imply its the same club at all IMHO, just that the operator is facing a second event. It can’t be a second event I hear those of a blue hue cry? Fine, change the name then, or distinguish in some way the difference as should have been done from day one.
I take no pleasure in repeating, you dance with the devil you don’t get burned as popular myth would have it, you combust. Period.
finchleyflyer says:
October 7, 2014 at 12:43 pm
Well said regarding Mr Spiers Finchley!
I’m sure he has came on this site in the past under the guise of “Embarrassingly Neutral”.
Of course it may not be him, but I’m sure you’ll agree, this name fits this chournalist rather nicely!
To use a Spiersism, I pity him :slamb: :slamb: :slamb: