A guest blog by Auldheid
In the previous blog (http://www.tsfm.scot/how-not-to-govern-scottish-football/), TSFM wrote to Harper Macleod raising questions on their advice supplied to the then SPL Board in February 2013 when the Lord Nimmo Smith Decision re use of EBTs and side letters was announced.
A reply was received from Mr McKenzie on 18th September the gist of which can be discerned in the following reply sent on 4th October.
Dear Mr McKenzie 4th Oct 2014
Thank you for your response of 18th September to my letter of 5th September regarding the consequences of information on the true nature of EBTs for Craig Moore, Ronald De Boer and Tor Andre Flo being withheld from your good selves when establishing in 2012 the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission into the use of EBTs and side letters by Rangers FC from 1999.
In recognition of the points you made about publishing your responses on line, your letter of 18th September will not be published although readers of TSFM will be able to gather from this reply which is being published what those points were.
Anonymity.
It is a matter of real regret that not only was anonymity required, but that Harper MacLeod were used as a conduit to try and elicit a reply from the SPFL or SFA. In terms of anonymity there were three factors at play:
- Security. The individuals asking the questions are aware that any raised concerning Rangers can attract threats from the worst of the Rangers support. We know that they are a minority but nevertheless, as we have recently witnessed, some are ready to turn threat into action. It is a condemnation of Scottish society that fear has played its part in preventing the truth being revealed about Rangers FC’s use of EBTs since 1999.
- Collective. The Scottish Football Monitor is made up of supporters of many clubs in Scottish football and is in effect a collective. The letters reflect to a large extent the thinking and feelings of the majority of readers. If a name is required for any future correspondence from the SPFL or SFA, then it can be addressed to Mr John Macnab, and a Post Box address can be supplied if necessary in addition to this e mail address press@tsfm.scot.
- Accountability. The final factor is the most important because it is why Harper Macleod were approached. It was not just because you were responsible for commissioning the Lord Nimmo Smith enquiry, but because there is absolutely no form of direct accountability by either the SPFL or the SFA to the supporters of Scottish football clubs. Correspondence can be ignored or the content not fully addressed and the customer who pays the wages of both organisations has no means of redress at all. Had there been some oversight in say an Ombudsman type role, it would not have been necessary to involve Harper MacLeod and indeed your good self. We sincerely apologise for doing so along with our thanks for actually responding to our correspondence, but we would like the reasons for our approach being addressed by the clubs who make up both footballing authorities. We hope you pass this particular point on to both SFA and SPFL.
Provenance.
You ask what the provenance is of the information/evidencethat you were given. The answer is we do not know, it was taken from material uploaded mainly in June last year for purposes unknown. Whilst its provenance may be in doubt there is no question as to the veracity of the content of the material itself.
This, when put together, sets out the narrative that prompted our correspondence. This question of provenance simply looks like an excuse for football authority not investigating what the material suggests took place when Duff and Phelps were asked to supply all documents relating to EBTs (no distinction being made) from the inception of the SPL.
Even if the material itself could not be used directly, it should have prompted questions that would have either corrected the narrative or established that the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission was indeed misled either by accident or design, when those documents were not supplied.
The SPFL must surely have the powers to seek the original documents from BDO and the SFA cannot be totally impotent in that regard either.
Then there is the personal knowledge of current SFA President Campbell Ogilvie to draw on. A simple statement explaining why he saw no reason to make any distinction between the irregular DOS REBTs that he launched in 1999 and the later MGMRT EBTs of which he was a beneficiary would surely help clear the air?
Existence of Side Letters.
We note that the Commission were aware of the existence of side letters to Moore, De Boer and Flo at the time of its decision of 28th February 2013 and these were taken into account when determining the appropriate sanction. The existence of side letters is not the issue that was raised in our previous correspondence, it was the nature of the EBTs that was the issue raised. In fact it would seem that the Commission themselves were confused by the switching from the irregular REBT ebts in 2002/03 to the MGMRT EBTs that are subject to further appeal with regard to regularity by HMRC.
The side letters to De Boer and Flo of 30th August and 23 November 2000 related to the DOS REBTs that they were both paid under. It is not known if they had subsequent side letters relating to the MGMRT EBTs , which is possible, but as set out in previous correspondence there were two distinctive types of EBTs and the side letters supplied relate to the earlier irregular type.
The position regarding the Moore EBT is interesting in that whatever EBT side letter was known to the Commission in February 2012 it could only have related to payments made to him under an accompanying side letter from the MGMRT ebts after 2002/03.
That Mr Moore was paid under the REBT scheme in 1999 is a matter of supplied evidence. However there is no record of any side letter in relation to the payment under the 1999 arrangement, which may or may not have been reported in the contract lodged with the SPL and SFA. It was the absence of any side letter in respect of this payment that prevented HMRC pursuing the tax due on it as they did for De Boer and Flo in what has become known as “the wee tax case. “ The evidence of deliberate concealment by the Murray Group of the side letters to De Boer and Flo allowed HMRC to seek repayment outside the normal 6 year time limit.
However the absence of a side letter or tax demand for Mr Moore does not mean this particular payment is not deserving of further scrutiny since
- It was an irregular payment that other clubs could not avail themselves of (as applies to the other two EBTs to De Boer and Flo)
- It is not known if it was reported to the SPL/SFA under the registration rules of that period.
Finally thank you for forwarding our letter of 5th September and previous correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer. Hopefully any further correspondence will be between him and ourselves, first to our email address, later to a PO Box if required.
It is the hope of all readers of The Scottish Football Monitor that the SFA will stop hiding behind the provenance excuse, which is destroying any semblance of integrity and proper governance of Scottish football and they will use their powers to properly acquire the information that will set the record straight and in doing so start to restore some of the lost trust which is essential for the wellbeing of Scottish football.
John Macnab
TSFM
Essexbeancounter 11.06
To clarify. If TRFC become eligible for a UEFA licence to play in one UEFA’S competitions they would only require the l set of ratified accounts from the year before they became eligible. Not 3 years as if often misreported.
The 3 years applies to uninterrupted membership of the SFA under Art12 of UEFA FFP which will be satisfied in Aug 2015.
Given that season 2015/16 is the earliest TRFC could become eligible for a licence on league placing then 2016 will be when they need a UEFA level licence, assuming of course they are in the top tier and get a UEFA place on sporting merit.
So they will need ratified accounts for period ending 2015. I think 6 monthly might suffice but I’d need to plough back through FFP to be certain but my main point is the 3 years accounts is an invulnerable squirrel given life by lazy journalism that is seemingly impervious to repeated attempts to kill the bugger. 🙂
Ecobhoy
Can you check PM please?
Essexbeancounter
PS. Under domestic club licensing TRFC only hold an Entry level licence under the legal/administrative/finance category at the moment.
A Gold/Silver standard is required for The Premiership for sure.
I think the same standard is required for The Championship but given neither TRFC or Hearts currently meet that standard I think SFA/ SPFL treat licensing regulations more as discretionary guidelines than actual rules.
Club licencing, particularly on finance must become the means by which football is governed and SFA membership conditional on a licence being properly granted.
This will not happen unless/ until TRFC meet the required standard as those in charge of licensing have failed to do their job in that respect since 2011 if not earlier.
I see from Companies House notices that “The Rangers FC Group Ltd” (Wavetower) has again come up for dissolution. I wonder if Worthington or another party will seek to stop the process once again.
Auldheid says:
November 7, 2014 at 11:17 am
Ecobhoy – Can you check PM please?
=================================
done and replied.
Bawsman says:
November 7, 2014 at 10:59 am
We obviously don’t feel the need for this in Scotland, I asked the question of the SFA about Rivzi, Green, Whyte et al.
There is no such thing as a test. This is a myth. There are criteria that are considered when a member club initiates a proposed change in directorship.
Darryl Broadfoot
Head of Communications
Scottish FA
========================================
Has the crieria ever been listed so that everyone, including fresh-faced aspirants, know the standard they have to meet. Or is it a moveable feast?
Lest We Forget
One thing I’ve learned over the past three years is that one of the unexpected tools of the spivs’ trade is the combination of the passage of time and the frailty of the human memory.
I’d always seen them as “Wham Bham Thank You Ma’am” operators – quick to act and fleet of foot – never to be seen again – but not at Ibrox. What we have is a variety of hired clowns and passing snake oil hucksters entertaining the masses and filling the MSM whilst the big heist is happening more subtly on paper – with a myriad of companies with confusing names, hidden investors, options, rights, and issues.
Even if you try to keep an eye on all the moving parts it is very difficult to do so over several years. The spivs have been very skilful in deploying an impenetrable fog of information, misinformation, opinion, conjecture, inquiries and media puff over such a long period that the masses have no will or capacity to keep pace and discern the actualités from the spiv-serving facts. For every real fact there are several spiv-generated whatabouteries for those looking to fill gaps in their chosen narrative.
To the ordinary (non-obsessed) man in the street, the fine detail is quickly lost, if it was ever clear, and the latest fairy tale from those with most to gain sounds plausible – and it’s not worth agonizing over some apparent inconsistencies.
The only problem for the spivs is the internet and its bampots. Because even with the vaguest recollection of something you think you remember hearing ages ago you can now have total recall. In my case, I remembered some very good pieces on the Rangers Charity Foundation being very dodgy but the details were vague and the expert’s name escaped me. But a couple of searches later there it all is. I can see Charles of Normandy now being unmasked as he protests “and I would have got away with it too, if it hadn’t been for that pesky Google and Internet.”
Check out alzipratu’s excellent work on RCF here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22RAngers+Charity+Foundation%22+site%3Aalzipratu.wordpress.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=BsNcVOrwJYOwOrDmgOAK#rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=sb&q=%22Rangers+Charity+Foundation%22+site%3Aalzipratu.wordpress.com
or here: https://alzipratu.wordpress.com/
Btw – one of my favourite inconsistencies in the Ibrox saga is: If Rangers is the same clumpany as The Rangers, then why is it the Five Way Agreement and not the Four Way Agreement?
mcfc
I know you posted something similar the other day but it got me thinking.
If Lewis MacLeod joins Newcastle in January and is loaned back to Rangers for the rest of the season, will the press finally get what’s happening here? Will they finally see where Rangers are in Ashley’s list of priorities?
Or will it be spun as some sort of Murray Park success story (13 years after it opened!).
cavansam says:
November 7, 2014 at 1:56 pm
Or will it be spun as some sort of Murray Park success story (13 years after it opened!).
======================================
Good point – I’m sure the SMSM will spin it as the best thing since 1p share options, but there’ll be another side to the story. The Tyneside media are a bit more canny when it comes to Mike – especially the ones he’s banned 🙂
I see that Ashley has been doing some complicated financial stuff to effectively increase Sports Direct’s stake in Debenhams to 12.7%. Debenhams has a turnover of £2.3 billion. I only raise this to make two points:-
1. In Ashley’s world, Sevco is a pitifully small element.
2. Even if he is making a few million quid of easy money by controlling the retail operations, he probably makes and loses ten times as much a day in other areas of his empire. I wonder why he’s bothering with the Sevco omnishambles? (Note for followers of RFC(IL) and Sevco; only in your world does being associated with either of these aforementioned organisations bring “worldwide prestige”)
@mcfc shhhhhhhhhh You wouldn’t want Charles and the spivs to start employing that new eu legislation affecting serach engines like google. What is it now “right to be …..” errr I forget 😉
finchleyflyer says:
November 7, 2014 at 2:16 pm
1. In Ashley’s world, Sevco is a pitifully small element.
===========================
finchleyflyer – I was at a charity pub quiz recently and a very wealth guy I know through friends and business contacts joined our team. I’ve a rough idea how much he’s worth – you’d never guess from the way he conducts himself and he’s good company. In his generousity he bought a load of raffle tickets – and then to his embarrassment he won most of the prizes – which he then laughed off and re-distributed. If he’d won nothing he’d probably have joked about that too. People with more money than they can probably ever spend treat money very differnt from the rest of us. I think Mike has just bought some raffle tickets to be sociable 🙂
tykebhoy says:
November 7, 2014 at 2:18 pm
@mcfc shhhhhhhhhh You wouldn’t want Charles and the spivs to start employing that new eu legislation affecting serach engines like google. What is it now “right to be …..” errr I forget 😉
===============================
How can we ever forget Charles and all the mirth he has brought us. In decades ro come kids will be able to recite his best lines like our generation did with Monty Python and Billy Connelly.
MCFC, I think you’re right about how people with huge wealth, they do treat money differently. It’s just that Ashley strikes me as a person who never makes frivolous or emotion-driven financial decisions (albeit there is the story about spoofing with his lawyers for fees of £250k). But the whole Sevco thing seems so insignificant when you see the scale of his operations and commitments elsewhere. That’s assuming he’s not fallen for the horse$hit about £500 million potential shirt buyers worldwide!
finchleyflyer says:
November 7, 2014 at 2:51 pm
=====================================================
finchleyflyer – totally agree – I think he got involved to make a few easy quid from the retail side with no intention of buying or funding the club – but that will dry up if the club dies (again) so in the abscence of a Rangersman saviour (dave, dave, wherefore art thou dave) his guys are taking a look to see what can be done to keep the cash flowing – strictly business – no big deal – already in the black – leave it if it’s too much hassle for the gain.
finchleyflyer says:
November 7, 2014 at 2:16 pm
…
1. In Ashley’s world, Sevco is a pitifully small element.
2. Even if he is making a few million quid of easy money by controlling the retail operations, he probably makes and loses ten times as much a day…
===================================================================
On the face of it, yes it is a bit puzzling why Ashley and/or his trusted Llambias, are spending any of their valuable time on TRFC.
The amounts involved are equivalent to us sticking one quid on our team winning their league game 4-0. High odds, highly unlikely but if it does comes in then great – if it doesn’t then so what.
I liked the idea raised by another Bampot, [apologies can’t remember who], that Ashley was checking out TRFC as a potential blueprint to replicate at other distressed clubs.
It could be that he is just getting valuable information for buttons, to validate his plans – or not.
And the rules on ownership, IMO, would be relaxed if Ashley was the last resort between a club being liquidated or continuing to participate in its league.
mcfc says:
November 7, 2014 at 2:59 pm
ps Mike may find an imaginative way to make RIFC/TRFC work for him – possibly as a loss making promotional tool for Sports Direct – but not as a simple, strength-to-strength football operation. Time will tell but being a sandwich board man for SD is probably not what the bears are hoping for.
mcfc says:
November 7, 2014 at 2:59 pm
1 0 Rate This
finchleyflyer says:
November 7, 2014 at 2:51 pm
I refer to the quote from Don Logan in the film Sexy Beast to explain Ashley’s involvement in trying to take on failing companies who at their lowest point he can screw for their assets and then turn around with minimal financial outlay to his advantage.
“It’s not about the money with you and me is it, Gal? It’s the charge, it’s the bolt, it’s the buzz, it’s the sheer feck off-ness of it all. Am I right?”
Ally McCoist: Board decision not to postpone Rangers v Alloa match.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/298794-ally-mccoist-board-decision-not-to-postpone-rangers-v-alloa-match/
Martin says:
November 7, 2014 at 3:29 pm
Ally McCoist: Board decision not to postpone Rangers v Alloa match.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/298794-ally-mccoist-board-decision-not-to-postpone-rangers-v-alloa-match/
====================================
And what was the purpose of that disclosure, I wonder ? 🙄
[We could do with a ‘sleekit’ icon.]
Shirley it was simply a ‘club decision’ ?
Anyway, I checked the link above and saw the video with volume on mute, [in office].
Jeezo, for a multi-millionaire McCoist looks rough !
wottpi says:
November 7, 2014 at 3:29 pm
“It’s not about the money with you and me is it, Gal? It’s the charge, it’s the bolt, it’s the buzz, it’s the sheer feck off-ness of it all. Am I right?”
===========================
perfect !
easyJambo says:
November 7, 2014 at 12:22 pm
I see from Companies House notices that “The Rangers FC Group Ltd” (Wavetower) has again come up for dissolution. I wonder if Worthington or another party will seek to stop the process once again.
Interesting ej
Burying Bones and / or – see
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/225703-ex-rangers-boss-craig-whytes-firm-faces-ticketus-liquidation-bid/
CH notes `Wavetower` with 1 mortgage / charge outstanding
Wonder what that could be? ❗
mtp
Aren`t TU on the BDO Liquidation Committee?
BDO`S forthcoming report should be of interest if they publish
Ripping off Loyal Bears seems to be a cottage industry
mtp
Here’s One Idea, Ally
“I have got no idea (why the board took its decision). They haven’t exactly told me why they’ve made that decision but i don’t have a problem with it.”
Llambias to McCoist: “You’re missing three from a squad of fifty and you can’t face a team at home that has 8pts from 11 games and an annual budget less than your salary. Tell you what, play the game or piss off and stop wasting my time!”
Tincks says:
November 6, 2014 at 1:41 pm
The calculation is correct, but what you have calculated are the odds for the top 14 being drawn as the FIRST 14 balls in the draw, which as you have seen is very unlikely.
However, I don’t think the actual draw panned out that way – what we are really interested in are the odds for the top 14 being drawn together, REGARDLESS of the order the ties came out in the draw (where the seven ‘top’ ties and the other nine could be interspersed in any combination).
Therefore, you need to multiply your result by the number of possible orders the seven and nine ties can come out, which is 16!/(9! x 7!), or 16/7 x 15/6 x 14/5 x 13/4 x 12/3 x 11/2 x 10/1.
This makes the final result 13/31 x 11/29 x 9/27 x 7/25 x 5/23 x 3/21 x 1/19, or approx in 1 in 41209.
This is the same figure that easyjambo arrived at by a different (but equally valid) reasoning.
Some light relief (at least for those of a mathematical bent!) on a Friday afternoon…
MCFC
“The only problem for the spivs is the internet and its bampots. Because even with the vaguest recollection of something you think you remember hearing ages ago you can now have total recall.”
Although I rarely post this is the main reason I support this site. The truth must continue to be told.
Dirt In Reserve
Much has been said about McCoist’s unsackability – mainly on cost grounds – but it makes me wonder.
Malcolm Murray was unsackable Rangers royalty to the core – but that drunken phone footage and some apparent verbal indiscretions did for him.
Charles Green even contrive to sack himself with his “My little p**i friend” comment having gloried in other escapades that would get most of us sacked on the spot.
Would anyone here argue that McCost is such a soul of discretion and bastion of private probity that there are no JPGs, MP3s or MP4s that would push him down the stairs of marble in Rangers-disgrace without so much as a golden slap round the earhole.
They`re all out the loop now
No power, no real control
Insiders and spivs fate is out of their hands
Helpless and adrift
MA could squash the whole kit and caboodle on a whim
But not before Christmas and January Sales 😉
SMSM impotent IMO
Seen as a waste of time
Recognition of fact on longstanding previous
They can make as much noise as they like – matters not a jot
mtp
mcfc says:
November 7, 2014 at 4:28 pm
Hold no candle for Malcolm Murray, but the `treatment` meted out on him was reprehensible
And then some
mtp
on a Friday afternoon…
Speak for yourself. It’s Saturday morning in China.
twopanda says:
November 7, 2014 at 4:37 pm
Hold no candle for Malcolm Murray, but the `treatment` meted out on him was reprehensible
And then some
===================================
tbh I thought they’d shown their hand as ruthless thugs on that one and that the bears would wise-up to the spivs’ disregard for rangers’ values of loyalty etc etc – but the bears didn’t seem to care that much. Could it really be the same when McCoist collects his P45 – thanks – ta-ra
mcfc says
Lot of Bears do care
& are alive to all the nonsense
And hate the rip-off circus supported by SMSM
Ignorant scabs they are IMO
Sorry for being so disappointed and negative
But what`s happened and happening is beyond belief
Could only have been with PR/ SMSM mass blindsiding
Deliberate and Calculated – for cash or influence
mtp
I’ve no doubt that there are plenty of caring and thoughtful bears who find this charade very painful – but they have not made themselves heard and as such they don’t count. They needed to organise and work out a strtaegy to influence eevents in the direction they wanted. Instead, the spivs have mobilised and manipulated the thug element to silence the few isolated, sensible voices that have been rasied. I’m afraid the reasonable fans need to take a big chunk of responsibility for the consequences of their inacion.
Thanks to all the mathematicians for their work on the odds question.
As I said, I have no conspiracy theory. The only benefits I can see, fall to those “wee” clubs who may go a bit further in the competition.
I must say, I wouldn’t have minded having a tenner on at those odds !!
mcfc says:
Yes they do
& correct mcfc
Acolyte’s placemen such as Murdo (Jack) in reality a real long part of the problem
This needs a reset
No considered reset and it could be finished for good
mtp
oddjob says:
November 7, 2014 at 5:42 pm
Thanks to all the mathematicians for their work on the odds question.
As I said, I have no conspiracy theory. The only benefits I can see, fall to those “wee” clubs who may go a bit further in the competition.
I must say, I wouldn’t have minded having a tenner on at those odds !!
__________________________________________________________
Oj
The chances of any given distinct set of ties coming out of the hat are far in excess of the chance of fourteen top teams being drawn together, so in terms of probability, evidence can’t be found for a conspiracy anyway.
Counter-intuitive, but true nonetheless.
This is a wee funny story I found and although it features a politician, Jim Murphy, is I believe a great example of Scots humour.
“The lifelong Celtic fan was given a taste of sensitivities over allegiances when he was photographed celebrating after scoring a goal while wearing a Rangers shirt in a charity football match. McTernan says: “The next week Jim was queueing up at Celtic Park with one of his kids and a Celtic fan shouted out to him: ‘Hey big man, you should be ashamed of yourself wearing a Rangers top. Couldn’t you just be like other decent MPs and fiddle your expenses?’”
In view of the increasing influence of social media – and the increasingly vocal scare stories in the MSM about misuse – we are putting together what we hope will become a voluntary code of conduct about behaviour, anonymity, and moderation. In fact a wide ranging set of ethics for what how, why and when we publish on our blog.
We have no wish to put anyone else under pressure as far as compliance with our code, but we think that it would make a stat towards showing people that we seek to make our platform as accessible as possible, whilst showing respect to those who are the subjects of our discussion, and the participants in that discussion.
The irony of the “internet bampots” aside, i think we need to re-assess the way in which we refer to ourselves. Internet, yes, but bampots we are not (at least in the collective sense 🙂 )
We would appreciate any contributors who are interested in helping us to put together a framwork for our code, either by suggestions, or by direct participation.
Big Pink is driving the bus for us on this, so any suggestions should be directed to BP at
bigpink@tsfm.scot
Apologies for OT
Ah the 14 from 32 puzzle. I knew binomial theory would come in handy one day. In the same way as you work out the number of lines in a football coupon , 8 from 10 is 45 lines at 2p a line meant you owed the pools man 90 pence … So 10x 9 divided by 2×1
Therefore the cup draw 32x31x down to 19 divided by 14×13 x all the way down to 1 will provide you with correct odds
Use the same method to work out the odds of winning the lottery
Glad to be of help , Ryanair calling
Does anyone else think that Mr McCoist might be wondering just how long it will take for the, on the evidence of this past week, genuinely dignified and certainly cheaper and more effective Stuart McCall to recharge his batteries?
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
jimlarkin says:
November 7, 2014 at 8:36 am
More biggy “Late in the day” trades yesterday
Recent small trades – shares rocketing 10% then Bang someone trades quarter of a million shares
If they were were bought for 1p, that’s a good days business is it not?
———————
Can’t help but wonder if, given the recent turmoil at RFC, if there’s now no chance of the AGM going ahead on time?
Would that lead to share trading being suspended in which case now would be a good time to get out or shift shares about?
And I doubt shares being suspended would cause a lack of sleep in the Ashley and Beaufort/Easdale camps.
Keith McLeod Day Dreaming Out Loud
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/craig-whytes-company—set-4588419
“THE company shamed Craig Whyte set up to buy Rangers are to be struck-off.”
Unless someone objects – as they have on every previous occasion – a minor detail I know – but don’t let silly facts get in the way of what you want to write Keith. http://companycheck.co.uk/company/08011390/SEVCO-5088-LIMITED/companies-house-docs
“But Rangers won two tax tribunal battles which ruled the Ibrox club should not have been pursued by the taxman.”
Keith, can you point me to that part – “should not have been pursued by the taxman.” – in each of the tribunal rulings – I must have missed that detail – or did you just make it up to flesh out an already flabby – not to say morbidly obese – filler piece.
mcfc says:
November 7, 2014 at 6:48 pm
That reads like it’s been written by someone who overheard half a story on the bus on his way to work. Or am I crediting him with more knowledge than he deserves?
McFc says
“They haven’t made themselves heard so they don’t count.”
I resent that sir, very dismissive. I’ve made myself heard on here for a long time. Others I know aren’t necessarily organising fan groups but don’t underestimate the power of word of mouth. An awful lot of us sussed this game very early on.
Does Ally admitting the board (and most likely the latest placeman) are now making footballing decisions not sound familiar?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/walter-smith-the-bank-is-running-rangers-1040150
For Bank read Sports Direct
OT
If not already seen, this is an amusing story about a punter who had applied for the vacant Republic of Ireland job, before O’Neill was appointed.
And the FAI had the good grace to reply too… 😯
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/nov/06/fan-applied-republic-of-ireland-manager-fai-letter-martin-oneill
imlarkin says:
November 7, 2014 at 10:56 am
11 1 Rate This
If My CASHLEY is playing puppeteer with the hands in the purse
down ibrokes way, would it not make sense for him to sell/buy the boy McLeod before pulling the plug.
,,,,,,,,
I doubt it
When Ashley pulls the plug and declares liquidation he doesn`t want any cash left in the business
No cash = clean security in exchange for a £2m loan
That way he gets his SD Store at Ibrox for a measly £2m
and
Newcastle get McLeod for buttons
…..if they want him
One thing that is still alive is Res 12 from 2013 AGM.
There is a progress note at http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=16334&cpage=1#comment-2370702 for those interested.
BigGav says:
November 7, 2014 at 4:23 pm
“Therefore, you need to multiply your result by the number of possible orders the seven and nine ties can come out, which is 16!/(9! x 7!)”
———————-
I thought it might be a binomial but couldn’t quite fathom it. Thanks for the explanation.
mcfc says:
November 7, 2014 at 6:48 pm
28 0 Rate This
Keith McLeod Day Dreaming Out Loud
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/craig-whytes-company—set-4588419
“THE company shamed Craig Whyte set up to buy Rangers are to be struck-off.”
Unless someone objects – as they have on every previous occasion – a minor detail I know – but don’t let silly facts get in the way of what you want to write Keith. http://companycheck.co.uk/company/08011390/SEVCO-5088-LIMITED/companies-house-docs
“But Rangers won two tax tribunal battles which ruled the Ibrox club should not have been pursued by the taxman.”
Keith, can you point me to that part – “should not have been pursued by the taxman.” – in each of the tribunal rulings – I must have missed that detail – or did you just make it up to flesh out an already flabby – not to say morbidly obese – filler piece.
======================
“But Rangers won two tax tribunal battles which ruled the Ibrox club should not have been pursued by the taxman.”
This particular quote is so breathtakingly inaccurate its funny.
Now do we believe the reporter actually believes this stuff or does he know when he’s reporting factual inaccuracies..
If I thought these guys had any gumption I would suspect they are just dropping these little dollops of crap into their articles on purpose. Playing a game to see who can get the most reaction from the “bampots”.
But to be honest, from the evidence we see they are really not that smart and certainly don’t seem to have any sense of humour at all where their favourite club is concerned.
“But Rangers won two tax tribunal battles which ruled the Ibrox club should not have been pursued by the taxman.”
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What part of the Taxman has the law on it’s side to pursue anyone they suspect of not paying the right amount of tax does Mr McLeod not get?
RyanGosling says:
November 7, 2014 at 7:16 pm
“They haven’t made themselves heard so they don’t count.”
I resent that sir, very dismissive.
———
The truth hurts. If there are thousands or tens of thousands of reasonable, thoughtful Rangers fans who sussed this long ago then how are they organized, what is their strategy, who is their leader and what have they done?
On a strange but sweet night (having lost our best manager in years) the 2nd worst team defeats the league leaders in another demonstration of the Armageddon principle.
Not many outgoing managers get this:
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/78846000/jpg/_78846706_motherwell.jpg
On fun with the Scottish cup draw and probability:
The probability that the draw for the Scottish cup would unfold in exactly the way that it did follows the multiplication of the probability of the first ball being selected by the probability of next ball being selected and so on until the draw is complete.
Ie. 32x31x30…….x1.
This gives an astronomical figure 2.631×10^35
It should be no surprise that the number is so large because in contains every possible outcome for the draw including the top 14 teams at the time being drawn against each other.
In fact it also includes as being just as probable the teams being drawn in alphabetical order or selected in geographical order north to south.
The problem with imposing an external concept of order on something which is random is that the process simply doesn’t care.
It might look odd to us if for instance the national lottery draw produced six balls numbered one to six, but the numbers which mean something to us have no bearing on the process which selected them and the odds for that outcome remain the same as those for any combination of numbered balls selected.
To clarify the national lottery could just as easily be conducted using a palette of colours on the balls, which presumably would lead us to find some extra significance if a nice spectrum was delivered by the draw and contemplate the odds for that.
Naturally with the national lottery as it is it’s possible that at some point during draw you might speculate correctly that the odds of the next ball emerging being odd rather than even is 50/50 and you would be absolutely correct if the same number of odd and even balls remained.
The draw would however continue to be random and the odds for predicting the final outcome would remain the same.
The thing to remember is that the processes are random and unthinking they don’t know what odd or even mean and they have no idea who or what the top 14 clubs are.
The odds for any pairings in the Scottish Cup draw at the 32 club (or entity) point remain the same for all possible outcomes.
On another note a few msgs seen around re share buys etc. Untrue its the quietest its been in months. Dead market dead stock.
Company owned in essence by its IP owner. (Not RIFC)
Castofthousands says: November 7, 2014 at 9:10 pm
BigGav says:
November 7, 2014 at 4:23 pm
==============================
It might be better to think of the draw as being a bag of marbles, with 18 red ones and 14 black ones.
If you take 16 balls out of the bag to represent the home teams, you would expect that the likeliest outcome to be 9 red and 7 black (i.e. in proportion to the number of each colour in the bag). There are only 15 possibilities for that, with the results at the extremes being 16 red and 0 black at one end and 2 red and 14 black at the other. If you repeated the same task many times then the results should follow a normal bell curve with the 9/7 split as the commonest result (the modal value). I’m not sure how to calculate the exact probability of the 9/7 split (can anyone confirm), but I’d guess that it may be something as high as 25% (1 in 4).
The remoter probabilities start when you need to match Red with Red or Black with Black. If you started drawing the away teams to play the Black home teams then you would get probabilities of 7/16 * 6/15 * 5/14 * 4/13 * 3/12 * 2/11 * 1/10 which gives 11,440 possibilities multiplied by the probability of a 9/7 red/black split (25%?) giving an overall probability of approx. 1 in 46k
My only area of intrigue in the latest stushie remains the Ashley CG meet and how much he paid said Normand horse trainer for what he wanted.
The silence on all fronts seems to me that a deals done. It 2m well spent and the mans gone.
Cue nothing at all other than the next desperate fix for funds.
Certain probabilities have an air of certainty around them. 2 that are coming to fruition just now fall into that category.
1 Wavetower will never produce a set of accounts and key documentation will never be lodged with companies house
2 MIH , despite being completely bust since 2010 , will not have a liquidator appointed. They will have their remaining debt forgiven by Lloyds , either by a debt for equity swap or by another device
The reason for both of these probabilities turning to certainties is connected by the reasoning employed by the key individuals. They are desperately keen to ensure nobody gets a proper look at what has happened in these companies.
This would not be possible without the complicity of banks and auditors. It could be called in by politicians . It won’t be , and that’s a scandal. The media have no interest in focusing on this scandal , partly because in most cases they don’t have the expertise and in most cases the truth coming out isn’t good for business.
If ever there was a justifiable public interest whistleblowing case this is it.
mcfc says:
November 7, 2014 at 10:10 pm
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The truth hurts. If there are thousands or tens of thousands of reasonable, thoughtful Rangers fans who sussed this long ago then how are they organized, what is their strategy, who is their leader and what have they done?
——————-
Thousands of them appear to have given up going to Ibrox?
The Glen,
Touché 🙂
I do believe that many fans who would otherwise be organising positively get discouraged by the division amongst the fans. The patronage dispensed by football club chairmen is very powerful – and useful in dividing opposition.
If I had blanket criticism of Rangers fans, it would be that posts like the one at 1.53 am by Barcabhoy tend to get ignored because of the provenance of the messenger. In that post, BB encapsulates in a few sentences THE crucial circumstances around which the downfall of Rangers took pace, and is still taking place. There is no criticism of Rangers contained within that post, but like many similar posts, the fans all too often take criticism of individuals, especially David Murray, as evidence of a campaign against the club.
The prescience of Bill Barr at Ayr United is something that most Rangers fans will in time come to regret not having. Getting to the bottom of the two questions implied in BB’s post is something I feel the Rangers fans will need to do if they are ever to get proper closure from the events of the past couple of decades.
Barcabhoy,
Given your belief, one shared by most of us, that Murray is Patient Zero in the epidemic that struck Rangers (and by extension the whole of our national game), why do you think that the board at Ibrox, embattled as they are, have never pointed an accusing finger (or even an implied elbow) in his direction?
The logical choices would appear to be that either we have it wrong and Murray is innocent, or that Murray still has skin in the game?
Barcabhoy
The reason for both of these probabilities turning to certainties is connected by the reasoning employed by the key individuals. They are desperately keen to ensure nobody gets a proper look at what has happened in these companies.
———————————————
What exactly are the invesigative powers of BDO. Who are they answerable to in this fiasco. The idea of MIH sleeking off into the dark without us knowing all of the facts sickens me to the core. Hand in hand is the Govan club and the truth behind their history through their shady owners and complicit SFA and media. Scottish football have been ridiculed and cheated IMO by the events surrounding Ibrox.
If I can paraphrase McCoist in today’s chip wrapper “it’s not rocket science, we need to spend to compete.” He even acknowledges that all the other managers think the same and he’s probably right in that as well. It’s just the last three years plus 10 years of financial doping previous that still appears to be beyond “rocket science.” And I put that charge against all clubs!
Barca,
Insightful post as always and I fully concur. I still think the wavetower bit is a busted flush. If there was evidence it would have been used by now. I’m also struggling to see if you are claiming the wavetower purchase and the MIH scam are actually physically connected? Yes there’s the anecdotal sdm knew craigy’s da and all that, but are you inferring there’s more that failure to post is covering up?
easyJambo says:
November 7, 2014 at 10:44 pm
========
When drawing 16 balls from a set of 14 black ones and 18 red ones, you can work out the probability of getting exactly 7 black balls and 9 red balls as follows.
Let A = No of ways to select 7 from 14
= (14 x 13 x 12 x 11 x 10 x 9 x 8) / (7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1)
Let B = No of ways to select 9 from 18
= (18 x 17 x … x 11 x 10) / (9 x 8 x … x 2 x 1)
Let C = No of ways to select 16 balls from 32
= (32 x 31 x … x 18 x 17) / (16 x 15 x … x 2 x 1)
Then probability = A x B / C
This works out at 0.2776, not far from the 25% you estimated !
All this of course assuming the draw is fairly executed and balls are drawn at random.
Currently, confidence in our football authorities is so low that even this cannot be taken as certain. 🙁
The herald highlights again this morning the £22m shortfall in the Murray International pension fund. I am sure that a fine upstanding leader such as SDM will lead the way by repaying his EBT and calling in at least 50% of those outstanding loans early to cover his 200 or so employees otherwise left high and dry with a 50% pension loss
Barcabhoy 1.53
I recall Campbell Ogilvie saying at one point something on the lines of him being stronger than he was in standing up to Sir David Murray.
As we all know CO was a member of the Rangers Remuneration policy committee that agreed to the use of ebts in 1999 and if anyone knows what shenanagins SDM got up to from 1999 to 2005 spanning the use of both irregular ebts and the ones under appeal, then it’s the President of the SFA.
It is incredible that not only is CO still in any position of authority at the SFA but that in spite of all the information supplied on tsfm no journalist has asked any questions of CO.
It’s as if he has some form of immunity to questioning because if he talks the whole house of cards will collapse.
Get Ogilvie in the dock of public opinion and SDM and company might get the kind of scrutiny his behaviour most certainly deserves.
The SFA have perfected the art of only telling what they want to reveal. RFC in holding back incriminating evidence. Witholding part of the truth to prevent the whole truth is simply lieing.
Mr Ogilvie is the key to establishing the full story of corruption and deception that no one in football authority or media has yet been able to prove has been a flight of Internet bampotery fancy.
Campbell Ogilvie btw became SFA President on 7th June 2011 in good time to influence any UEFA licencing decision.
BigGav says: November 8, 2014 at 10:27 am
Then probability = A x B / C
This works out at 0.2776, not far from the 25% you estimated !
=========================
Excellent stuff.
My 1 in 11440 probability of 7 Black v Black ties multiplied by the 1 in 3.6023 (27.76%) you calculated for me comes to 1 in 41210, which is back to the number I started with.
Most reassuring. 😆
Big Pink says:
November 8, 2014 at 8:52 am
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I can’t disagree with any of that, nor what Barca said.
Sadly, it’s only after they’ve lost their football club that the fans have finally realised the same.
I don’t say this as any excuse, but it must have been difficult to see past the scottish press telling them how great they had it and their owner telling them how they were going to spend more than their greatest rivals*, for them heed the advice from supporters of other teams. Like I say, no excuse, but I can see how it happened. And, let’s face it, a significant amount of football fans wear whatever tinted specks they do and can’t see past their own colours.
*unfortunately Hugh Adam, a real “Rangers Man”, who knew how Murray’s “finance” worked, was written off as a bitter old man by the people who should have been listening the most.
The Glen says:
November 8, 2014 at 11:27 am
*unfortunately Hugh Adam, a real “Rangers Man”, who knew how Murray’s “finance” worked, was written off as a bitter old man by the people who should have been listening the most.
=================================================
Interesting that Donald Findlay recently seems to have fallen into that category as well perhaps because he too was challenging the narrative fed to the fans.
Possibly just the same PR objectives being pursued of discrediting the messenger. Exactly the same tactics used against John Brown.
Auldheid says:
November 8, 2014 at 11:04 am
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Auldheid, I saw on another forum there may be something to tell on Resolution 12 soon. Can you confirm?
Barcabhoy says:
November 8, 2014 at 1:53 am
================================
I’m guessing if Murray had behaved exactly the same way without a Rangers connection we would get the public debate that is needed. I think it is beyond doubt that having Rangers in the mix is good for anyone who doesn’t want to play by the rules. They may be skint, and they may not have a great team, but the cultural power they wield over the Scottish establishment is utterly massive.
Completely off topic,
Just been into my local Spar in Peterculter, Aberdeenshire.
Here’s how my transaction went,
As instructed by the house manager, I bought the flour, eggs, sugar and washing up liquid.
Got to the counter and, no word of a lie, the counter assistant says “seeing you’ve spent more than 80p, you’re entitled to a free copy of the Daily Record”.
That is was the MSM has come to. Spend eighty pence and you get some free paper to light your fire.
Anyway, my response was “sorry, I have no interest in that rag”, to which the counter assistant says “arghh, nobody wants to take one!”.
You might be an award winning journalist Keich, but in Aberdeenshire, naebody’s interested :slamb:
rougvielovesthejungle says:
November 8, 2014 at 1:18 pm
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The first time I’ve heard of an Aberdonian refusing a freebie! 😀
upthehoops says:
November 8, 2014 at 1:36 pm
True enough, but I just use firelighters and kindlers for lighting the fire 😆