Harper Macleod and LNS

A guest blog by Auldheid

In the previous blog (http://www.tsfm.scot/how-not-to-govern-scottish-football/), TSFM wrote to Harper Macleod raising questions on their advice supplied to the then SPL Board in February 2013 when the Lord Nimmo Smith Decision re use of EBTs and side letters was announced.

A reply was received from Mr McKenzie on 18th September the gist of which can be discerned in the following reply sent on 4th October.


Dear Mr McKenzie                                                                                                    4th Oct 2014

Thank you for your response of 18th September to my letter of 5th September regarding the consequences of information on the true nature of EBTs for Craig Moore, Ronald De Boer and Tor Andre Flo being withheld from your good selves when establishing in 2012 the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission into the use of EBTs and side letters by Rangers FC from 1999.

In recognition of the points you made about publishing your responses on line, your letter of 18th September will not be published although readers of TSFM will be able to gather from this reply which is being published what those points were.

Anonymity.
It is a matter of real regret that not only was anonymity required, but that Harper MacLeod were used as a conduit to try and elicit a reply from the SPFL or SFA. In terms of anonymity there were three factors at play:

  1. Security. The individuals asking the questions are aware that any raised concerning Rangers can attract threats from the worst of the Rangers support. We know that they are a minority but nevertheless, as we have recently witnessed, some are ready to turn threat into action. It is a condemnation of Scottish society that fear has played its part in preventing the truth being revealed about Rangers FC’s use of EBTs since 1999.
  2.  

  3. Collective. The Scottish Football Monitor is made up of supporters of many clubs in Scottish football and is in effect a collective. The letters reflect to a large extent the thinking and feelings of the majority of readers. If a name is required for any future correspondence from the SPFL or SFA, then it can be addressed to Mr John Macnab, and a Post Box address can be supplied if necessary in addition to this e mail address press@tsfm.scot.
  4.  

  5. Accountability. The final factor is the most important because it is why Harper Macleod were approached. It was not just because you were responsible for commissioning the Lord Nimmo Smith enquiry, but because there is absolutely no form of direct accountability by either the SPFL or the SFA to the supporters of Scottish football clubs. Correspondence can be ignored or the content not fully addressed and the customer who pays the wages of both organisations has no means of redress at all. Had there been some oversight in say an Ombudsman type role, it would not have been necessary to involve Harper MacLeod and indeed your good self. We sincerely apologise for doing so along with our thanks for actually responding to our correspondence, but we would like the reasons for our approach being addressed by the clubs who make up both footballing authorities. We hope you pass this particular point on to both SFA and SPFL.

 

Provenance.
You ask what the provenance is of the information/evidencethat you were given. The answer is we do not know, it was taken from material uploaded mainly in June last year for purposes unknown. Whilst its provenance may be in doubt there is no question as to the veracity of the content of the material itself.

This, when put together, sets out the narrative that prompted our correspondence. This question of provenance simply looks like an excuse for football authority not investigating what the material suggests took place when Duff and Phelps were asked to supply all documents relating to EBTs (no distinction being made) from the inception of the SPL.

Even if the material itself could not be used directly, it should have prompted questions that would have either corrected the narrative or established that the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission was indeed misled either by accident or design, when those documents were not supplied.

The SPFL must surely have the powers to seek the original documents from BDO and the SFA cannot be totally impotent in that regard either.

Then there is the personal knowledge of current SFA President Campbell Ogilvie to draw on. A simple statement explaining why he saw no reason to make any distinction between the irregular DOS REBTs that he launched in 1999 and the later MGMRT EBTs of which he was a beneficiary would surely help clear the air?

Existence of Side Letters.
We note that the Commission were aware of the existence of side letters to Moore, De Boer and Flo at the time of its decision of 28th February 2013 and these were taken into account when determining the appropriate sanction. The existence of side letters is not the issue that was raised in our previous correspondence, it was the nature of the EBTs that was the issue raised. In fact it would seem that the Commission themselves were confused by the switching from the irregular REBT ebts in 2002/03 to the MGMRT EBTs that are subject to further appeal with regard to regularity by HMRC.

The side letters to De Boer and Flo of 30th August and 23 November 2000 related to the DOS REBTs that they were both paid under. It is not known if they had subsequent side letters relating to the MGMRT EBTs , which is possible, but as set out in previous correspondence there were two distinctive types of EBTs and the side letters supplied relate to the earlier irregular type.

The position regarding the Moore EBT is interesting in that whatever EBT side letter was known to the Commission in February 2012 it could only have related to payments made to him under an accompanying side letter from the MGMRT ebts after 2002/03.

That Mr Moore was paid under the REBT scheme in 1999 is a matter of supplied evidence. However there is no record of any side letter in relation to the payment under the 1999 arrangement, which may or may not have been reported in the contract lodged with the SPL and SFA. It was the absence of any side letter in respect of this payment that prevented HMRC pursuing the tax due on it as they did for De Boer and Flo in what has become known as “the wee tax case. “ The evidence of deliberate concealment by the Murray Group of the side letters to De Boer and Flo allowed HMRC to seek repayment outside the normal 6 year time limit.

However the absence of a side letter or tax demand for Mr Moore does not mean this particular payment is not deserving of further scrutiny since

  1. It was an irregular payment that other clubs could not avail themselves of (as applies to the other two EBTs to De Boer and Flo)
  2.  

  3. It is not known if it was reported to the SPL/SFA under the registration rules of that period.

Finally thank you for forwarding our letter of 5th September and previous correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer. Hopefully any further correspondence will be between him and ourselves, first to our email address, later to a PO Box if required.

It is the hope of all readers of The Scottish Football Monitor that the SFA will stop hiding behind the provenance excuse, which is destroying any semblance of integrity and proper governance of Scottish football and they will use their powers to properly acquire the information that will set the record straight and in doing so start to restore some of the lost trust which is essential for the wellbeing of Scottish football.

John Macnab

TSFM

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Tom Byrne

About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,442 thoughts on “Harper Macleod and LNS


  1. AmFearLiathMòr says:
    November 13, 2014 at 1:01 pm
    9 0 Rate This
    ———-

    If the interview with him the other night is anything to go by, he considers his present job ‘doing his time’, serving his necessary apprenticeship in Knottyash — well, that’s the impression he gave. It was response to the inevitable, ‘Do you want to return to Ibrox one day?’

    Was there a vote taken on the choice of manager? I thought since Clyde has the ownership structure it has the fans, perhaps, had some say in the matter?


  2. wottpi says:
    November 13, 2014 at 2:00 pm
    _______________________________

    £193,000,000 minus £145.50 for mine, equals £192,999,854.50!!!


  3. Apologies for the length of this post but it’s the usual high standard from David Conn in the Guardian and may offer some clues as to financial arrangements in the world of RIFC/TRFC.

    How Bury FC ended up guaranteeing 138% annual interest on a £1m loan

    It has transpired that the owner Stewart Day’s company has borrowed £1m, secured on the Gigg Lane ground, at an annual interest rate of 138%

    The newly confident Bury Football Club dispatched non-league Hemel Hempstead 3-1 in the FA Cup first round on Sunday and, despite losing to Tranmere Rovers in the Johnstone’s Paint Trophy quarter final on Tuesday night, have made a formidable start to the League Two season, a transformation in the club’s fortunes since new owners arrived last summer.
    Under Stewart Day, a 33-year-old property developer from Burnley, and his colleague, Glenn Thomas, Bury have revamped the Gigg Lane pitch and stocked the manager, David Flitcroft, with new signings including the quality lower-division trio of Ryan Lowe from Tranmere, Nicky Adams from Rotherham United and Danny Mayor from Sheffield Wednesday to become genuine competitors for promotion.
    But these happy days are tempered with memories, still raw, of administration in 2001. That crisis of over-borrowing was followed by promises that despite the club always struggling in Manchester’s shadow, directors would never again gamble with Bury’s future. The trauma was precipitated by a £1m loan secured on Gigg Lane at 15% annual interest which the club had argued was excessive and which court documents described as “a true lending of the last resort”.
    Yet publicly filed Companies House documents show that since taking over Bury, Day’s company has borrowed exactly the same amount, £1m, also secured on Gigg Lane, but at an exponentially higher interest rate: 10% per month. That is a cumulative annual rate of 138%, meaning that after one year, £1m borrowed in August will, with interest, amount to £2.38m to be repaid. Bury Football Club themselves, formed in 1885 at the dawn of professional football and Football League members for 120 years, are guaranteeing this high-interest £1m loan.
    It was taken out by Day’s company, SG Sports Management Limited of Rainbow House, Burnley, on 11 August. By then SG Sports Management had already borrowed £450,000, at the same rate of interest, 10% per month, from a company called, somewhat unpromisingly, Cash4Assets Limited. Day’s company borrowed twice from that company: £200,000 on 14 May, around the time the club signed Lowe, Adams and Mayor, then another £250,000 less than a month later, on 9 June.
    Bury FC have guaranteed both those loans; the security is stated in the mortgages to be “a first legal charge … over the freehold property at Bury football ground and stadium, Gigg Lane”.
    Just two months later, on 11 August, SG Sports Management borrowed £1m from Goldmann and Sons Limited, a company with a single shareholder, officially classed as “dormant”. The loan included the £450,000 already borrowed from Cash4Assets, plus a further £550,000, to make £1m. Like the previous two, this loan was stated to be for one month, at interest of 7.5% if the whole loan were repaid within a month, then, if it were not, at 10% per month. As the mortgage is still registered against Bury and Gigg Lane, it appears it was not immediately repaid, so interest is running at £100,000 for the first month, then at 10% per month of the outstanding loan; 138% per year.
    In October 2013 SG Sports Management took out a mortgage, for unspecified loans, from another company, Datum Finance Ltd, registered in Burnley. The agreement envisages that SG Sports Management would lend money in turn to Bury and Datum would have a mortgage on that loan.
    Bury’s most recent accounts are for the year to 31 May 2013, before Day’s ownership, when the club had income of £2.7m but made a £724,688 loss. The principal owner, Brian Fenton, a local man and fan, called time after lending £191,043 to bankroll the club’s losses and the club faced another financial crisis before Day stepped in.
    The auditors stated that Bury’s directors considered the club had only “adequate resources to continue in operational existence for the foreseeable future” because Day’s company was making available “up to £2m revolving credit facility”. SG Sports Management had already lent the club £335,000; the accounts do not say what the rate of interest was.
    After the 2001 crash Bury were saved from ruin by thousands of donations from people nationwide and even overseas who did not want a venerable English football club to fold. In return donors’ names were affixed to the back of the Gigg Lane seats and the old ground still has them, bearing witness to this generosity.
    Stuart Cook, spokesman for a concerned group of small Bury shareholders, said: “We are lifelong fans whose parents and grandparents attended Gigg Lane; we want a successful club but based on sustainable spending. Whilst the improvements of the last year are encouraging, we are worried that the spending appears to be from money borrowed against the ground, at very high cost. There is a lack of transparency and accountability which would give us assurance about this.”
    A club statement when Day took over said: “The new board will be bringing in key individuals to assist in bringing new ideas and business models to ensure financial security.”
    The Guardian sent detailed questions to Day via the club, principally asking where the £2m credit facility from his company to the club had come from, whether the borrowed money was used to finance the player signings, what the club’s wage bill now is and what plan they have to make sure interest of 10% per month, 138% per year, can be met. He did not reply.

    Note the final paragraph – a fairly basic journalistic technique many on here have challenged the SMSM to use when writing about Scottish football authorities applying their rules.


  4. Gerry Braiden ‏@BraidenHT 11m11 minutes ago

    NEW: European Commission dismiss allegations of ‘state aid’ by Glasgow City Council towards Celtic FC. More very soon.


  5. BREAKING: European Commission find no evidence to back up allegations of State Aid involving GCC and Celtic Football Club.


  6. Earlier this month, national team boss Gordon Strachan claimed Scottish football might need to “manipulate” Hearts, Hibernian and Rangers back into the top flight for the good of the sport.

    The three clubs find themselves battling for a route back to the Premiership this season, with the Gorgie club currently occupying top spot in the Championship table.

    In his weekly column in the Kilmarnock Standard, Rugby Park manager Johnston agreed the trio were missed.

    He said: “Gordon Strachan had his say on the subject last week and thinks for the top league to prosper it has to have Rangers, Hearts and Hibs back in it.

    “I think he’s probably right, there’s no denying that they are three massive clubs and if they were back in the top flight then we would have more chance of getting extra cash into our game.

    “Those three clubs are really important to Scottish football and as well as sponsorship it might help with TV money – it’s easy to see how important the millions of pounds are down south from TV revenue.”

    After years of talks over league reconstruction including a failed vote to implement a 12-12-18 league structure, the SPFL was formed which retained a 12-team top flight with three lower leagues of ten sides.

    Johnston questioned whether the new body any made any difference to the way the game has been run, adding: “we still don’t have a sponsor, which is criminal for one of the top leagues in Europe.”

    And having played in England with Sunderland and Middlesbrough, the 40-year-old has called for a bigger Scottish Premiership.

    He added: “I think a bigger league would have a massive impact. At the moment, you’re playing teams three, four times a season – sometimes even five when you count the cup competitions – and you become familiar with the players and the way that teams play.

    “If we had a league of 18 or 20 sides and you were only playing each other twice a season, it would improve what’s on offer for players, coaches and fans.

    “Personally, from playing in England, it’s a completely different beast down there. You’re visiting different stadiums, playing different teams – that’s what it’s all about.

    “I’m sure as fans it must be much better playing different teams and visiting different parts of the country, rather than going to the same places all the time.

    “Last year we played Dundee United away three times when you include the Scottish Cup tie. Something needs to change.

    “And I don’t think I’m alone in saying that with everyone in Scottish football airing similar views at the moment.”


  7. tayred says:
    November 13, 2014 at 1:35 pm

    FIFA report now shouted down as a sham by the original investigator.

    Saying it contains “contains numerous materially incomplete and erroneous representations of the facts and conclusions”

    Sounds familiar…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30037729
    ====================================================
    “…Current FA chairman Greg Dyke also registered his unhappiness with Fifa’s report, claiming it left unanswered questions.

    Asked if the FA had damaged the image of football’s world governing body, Dyke said: “I think it’s quite hard to damage the image of Fifa.”
    =======================================================
    The current English FA Chairman openly mocking FIFA for presumably having a public image languishing somewhere in the gutter.

    If it’s corrupt at the top, then it’s probably corrupt at the bottom.

    And the Scottish FA is never going to voluntarily improve, IMO.

    It will be up to the paying punters to force local change.


  8. The softening up is well underway now. New top division of 16 teams next season almost a certainty.


  9. Carfins Finest says:
    November 13, 2014 at 3:35 pm

    Yup, and if it comes to pass it will be in the name of sporting integrity. The inevitable self justifying twaddle writes itself “The reconstruction hasn’t produced the results we hoped – lack of a sponsor demonstrates the inherent weakness of the current structure, to maintain the integrity, both sporting and financial, of Scottish Football extraordinary measures are necessary” 😉


  10. Carfins Finest says:
    November 13, 2014 at 3:35 pm

    Aye, and debt free club to support or not, I’ll not be back inside a Scottish football ground again.

    I may give my money to the local cinema instead, somewhere were at least the show is generally fixed so that it is the good guy(or gal) that wins.


  11. wottpi says:
    November 13, 2014 at 2:00 pm

    Following figures based on what the Irish national broadcaster RTE seemed to have in their accounts for “Acquired programmes – overseas”: 25,179,000 Euros, or £20.7 million at current exchange rates.

    That give people in Ireland access to all BBC programming. Therefore COST OF BUYING BBC CHANNELS: £21m.
    ———————————————————-
    It certainly proves the point that anything can be proven through statistics 🙄

    Firstly I can find no note in the RTE accounts to state that the Programes acquired overseas all came from the BBC and I must say I would be amazed if that were the case. It also doesn’t mean they are screened at the same time as in the UK.

    The impression given is that the RTE is re-broadcasting live the total BBC TV output. That isn’t the case as RTE is the Irish national public broadcaster and it gets its income by doing exactly what it’s supposed to do.

    In 2013 it spent Euros 144 million in self and other Irish generated content on RTE1 and RTE2. Unlike the BBC we are only talking about 2 TV channels for starters. RTE1 and RTE2 each broadcasting 8,760 hours of television annually.

    The two channels between them spent Euros 22.1 million on overseas acquired programmes which using the average cost per transmission hour produces a back of fagpacket figure of 2,091 hours purchased outwith Ireland as opposed to the combined transmission hours for both channels of 17,520 which means 15,429 were produced either by RTE or other Irish sources.

    The total RTE budget for 2 TV stations and 4 Radio staions amounts to Euros 252.5 million. All of the Radio programming is sourced indigenuously btw.

    With the Republic having a 5 million population – similar to Scotland – it seems that Scots are served pretty well from £300 million licence fee income especially in view of the much wider range of TV, radio and other services provided by the BBC than by RTE.

    Anyway I thought some BBC channels were provided ‘live’ in Ireland through Sky bundled-in with a paid for package although with all the digital changes that might well have changed everything else has 😯


  12. The sectarian-driven Bear Land ‘Experts’ never had a shred of credibility in their ludicrous claims that Celtic was the recipient of illegal State Aid and now the EC has dismissed their rantings out-of-hand.

    Under previously applicable EC rules the EC apparently had no alternative to investigating the complaints by asking the UK Government and various public bodies, as well as Celtic, to respond to the accusations.

    Having seen the evidence presented the EC has declared that the accusations are a pile of mince and not even worthy of a formal preliminary investigation which is the first step before an official investigation is launched.

    The EC State Aid legislation is driven by the maxim that if a company receives illegal State Aid then it obtains an unfair advantage over its competitors and therefore distort competition in the market.

    The complaint against Celtic alleges the club received State Aid through publicly a vast number of corrupt Scots contriving to ensure it purchased public land below market value. This fiction and web of deceit has been exposed by the EC ruling. I have often wondered that if those making or believing the complaints actually believe in the level of public corruption they describe then it’s highly likely that they must have personal experience of such behaviour.

    In the real world Celtic paid market-value for all public land purchases through having the land independently valued as per EC Regulations. The so-called Land ‘Experts’ have consistently misled Rangers football fans by spreading the myth that the purchases were ‘illegal’ because the transaction didn’t take place as a public auction. This is utter nonsense and EC Rules specifically state that a public auction isn’t required as long as the land is ‘independently valued’ in accordance with EC Rules which it was.

    I have no doubt the Land ‘Experts’ have been on a PR exercise to string-along ordinary rangers supporters as a device to divert their attention from the dire financial and ownership issues which beset the Ibrox club.

    The ‘experts’ also claim the delay in issuing the Celtic decision was down to the seriousness and validity of their claims. Aye right Jimmy! Regular posters will know that I have dismantled their most ludicrous claims which have twisted fact and the truth beyond recognition. But this was never about getting to the truth – and I think most of us are well aware of the driving force at work.

    As always the Truth is slightly more prosaic and resides in the section of the EC Competition Department dealing with State Aid cases in the Sporting Sector. Officials have been up to their eyeballs with some very important cases involving Dutch and Spanish Clubs – including Real Madrid – with decisions promised before the end of this year and also the Nurumburgring Circuit case which has recently concluded.

    These decisions will set the legal ‘framework’ for future sport State Aid allegations and decisions and that takes priority over the small-beer issue of Celtic which the EC is well aware springs from a sectarian-motivated background.

    There is also intense discussion and some division between UEFA and and the EC as to how the sporting body’s FFP Rules impact on State Aid which appears to be delaying some football decisions. It’s a complex area with the EC backing the broad commitment to financial fair play in football. But competition issues exist and EC consideration is at a very early stage – if I get a minute I’ll try and do a simplified post on the subject.

    However, the malicious and misguided attacks on Celtic are unlikely to be repeated against any future sporting organisation as the EC has completed a major overhaul of its State Aid complaint reporting process this year. In future it will not be enough for bigots, without a shred of evidence, to blame it on thousands of allegedly corrupt Catholics or Celtic Supporting politicians, public servants, independent professionals and anybody with a Timmy-sounding name.

    I will be returning to the EC Competition department once its detailed finding are published as from Day 1 of the complaint I have requested an answer as to why the EC has accepted those making the complaint against Celtic as an ‘interested party’ and in what way they believed they had been financially disadvantaged even if Celtic had received illegal State Aid.

    Just for the record: Since 2010 over 1800 State Aid cases have been investigated of which 63 were found to be unlawful and aid recovered. Still I suppose even those slim odds kept hope alive for the Bears during very dark days at Ibrox. I wonder what they’ll turn to now?

    PS: I hope the GH has got it right or itsa big riddy 😆


  13. StevieBC says:
    November 13, 2014 at 3:33 pm
    2 0 Rate This

    .
    “…Current FA chairman Greg Dyke also registered his unhappiness with Fifa’s report, claiming it left unanswered questions.

    Asked if the FA had damaged the image of football’s world governing body, Dyke said: “I think it’s quite hard to damage the image of Fifa.”
    =======================================================
    The current English FA Chairman openly mocking FIFA for presumably having a public image languishing somewhere in the gutter.
    ______________________

    Nice diversionary tactics by Dyke. Does he intend answering any questions regarding the England bid team courting Jack Warner? Oh, hang on, Dyke will never be asked any questions about that by any English journalist, and certainly not by the BBC Sport “John Bull” brigade. Or how about asking Mr Garcia whether his report contained any criticism of the England bid? Again, a question that the media will not ask, because the FA have dealt with the matter completely already, as follows-

    An FA statement read: “We do not accept any criticism regarding the integrity of England’s bid or any of the individuals involved.” Indeed- they will only accept criticism of others, but they are, as always, perfect. Talk about cherry picking a report!

    Makes me feel pretty queasy, in fact. A touch of the “greasy Johnny Foreigner never to be trusted, straight backed Englishman can do no wrong” crap that filled the comics of my formative years. Have we moved on at all? I do sometimes wonder.


  14. Danish Pastry says:

    November 13, 2014 at 4:11 pm


    Thanks Danish. Appreciated. I am also in favour of a bigger league but we missed that chance last year IMHO and the thought of further reconstruction to allow a team, who are basically in administration with Mike Ashley being the administrator, to be given a heroes return turns my stomach.


  15. Can the State Aid result be seen as an away win in Europe?


  16. Carfins Finest says:
    November 13, 2014 at 4:38 pm
    4 0 Rate This

    Danish Pastry says:

    November 13, 2014 at 4:11 pm


    Thanks Danish. Appreciated. I am also in favour of a bigger league but we missed that chance last year IMHO and the thought of further reconstruction to allow a team, who are basically in administration with Mike Ashley being the administrator, to be given a heroes return turns my stomach.
    ———–

    Me too.


  17. Carfins Finest says:
    November 13, 2014 at 4:51 pm

    Can the State Aid result be seen as an away win in Europe?
    ===========================================================
    Surely The World ❗


  18. ecobhoy says:
    November 13, 2014 at 4:16 pm
    —————
    Congratulations, Eco. You have done sterling background work on this issue, keeping us all abreast of the fatuity of the bears’increasingly desperate claims. Sitting here in a storm-swept pub in Ireland’s not-so-sunny southeast this evening, I raise my pint of the black stuff and sing you a mental chorus of Vindication Once Again! :mrgreen:


  19. So
    The malicious complaint by some Rangers Fans that CFC received State Aid has been thrown out by the EC
    Which begs the question
    What if some Celtic Fans had launched a complaint that RFC received UK taxpayers aid in 2012 exceeding £21m?
    If they had
    The issue would not have been whether RFC had unlawful possession of money belonging to the State. That was never challenged by RFC
    This issue would have been whether it was appropriate to investigate a claim in circumstances where the Defendant had been forced into liquidation by the State as a punishment for its behaviour


  20. @wottpi

    Checked with RTE – apparently BBC can be accessed in the Republic through Saorview, Freeview, UPC and SKY. I have no idea what channels are available though.


  21. GoosyGoosy says:
    November 13, 2014 at 5:13 pm

    The malicious complaint by some Rangers Fans that CFC received State Aid has been thrown out by the EC. What if some Celtic Fans had launched a complaint that RFC received UK taxpayers aid in 2012 exceeding £21m?
    ============================================
    You must have a twisted mind as well as I have been thinking of that over the last couple of weeks knowing the result was close.

    I have been looking at the EBTs and Wee Tax case as a possible hook and my initial thoughts are that the 10 year ban on proceedings wouldn’t apply but it’s complex.

    However the change in the EC State Aid complaint submission rules is designed to weed-out trivial or malicious complaints and we have to thank the Land ‘Experts’ for that. So I’m not sure it would get out the starting gate as the EC might think itsa tit for tat move – would I ever 🙄

    Under the old system I think there would have been more chance of getting a result than the Bears’ Fantasy as the claims would at least have been factual unlike the drivel served-up by the McMurdo Coven who spawned the complaint.


  22. Danish Pastry says:

    November 13, 2014 at 2:22 pm

    AmFearLiathMòr says:
    November 13, 2014 at 1:01 pm
    9 0 Rate This
    ———-

    If the interview with him the other night is anything to go by, he considers his present job ‘doing his time’, serving his necessary apprenticeship in Knottyash — well, that’s the impression he gave. It was response to the inevitable, ‘Do you want to return to Ibrox one day?’

    Was there a vote taken on the choice of manager? I thought since Clyde has the ownership structure it has the fans, perhaps, had some say in the matter?

    Danish, I doubt it. I must admit, I’m not one of the members, I just turn up at the gate occasionally on saturday when circumstances allow (was a season ticket holder at one time), but as far as I’m aware, those fans that are members didn’t get a say on the appointment. In fact, of the sites that I frequent, a large number of them were VERY unhappy that he’d been appointed in the first place, although that’s to do with getting our fingers burnt in the recent past by supposed big name managers.

    At the time, I thought it would be pretty good as we were at least going to get a little publicity (if only via Bazza’s Record column, although I did have concerns that we’d be belittled a bit by it), and easily the best midfielder in Scotland outside the top division. Others were more concerned that he had no idea of what was required at our level.

    As it transpired, with the exception of our flat out humping at Ibrox, we’ve had next to no publicity at all from his appointment, with his name only ever used in conjunction with Rangers. We’ve not even had his services as a player. He’s played (I think) one game for us, and exited pretty quickly.

    I think his appointment was pretty much down to a starstruck chairman, and to be honest, at our level I’m not even sure what sort of relevant questions you could ask of a managerial candidate (‘Do you want help carrying the cones into training, Mr Ferguson?’).

    If we were ever going to try and get back to our ‘rightful place’ (can I use that phrase?), we would need someone committed to sticking around for a few years, to try and build something. It’s feasible, as Hamilton Accies have proved, but you need someone with the vision and enough loyalty to the club to actually see it through to its conclusion, and not jump ship the second a better offer comes along, and I don’t for a second think Bazza is that man.


  23. State Aid ?

    What if ……

    A bank who’s largest shareholder is the UK State , provided loans to a company who owned a football club. What if these loans were never repaid, and will never be repaid.

    What if the loans were made against irregular lending criteria.

    What if the loans were made to the company who self valued property assets

    What if the loans were used for the purpose of paying transfer fees the club could not otherwise afford

    What if the loans were used to pay salary and bonus to players the club could not otherwise afford

    What if the loans were used to provide loans via an EBT to players , managers and owners . Without the loans provided by the bank , what if the football club would not have had the funds to make payments to the EBT scheme.

    What if the loans then allowed the football club to win tournaments, prize money and tens of £millions in European competition payments, that they ordinarily would not have necessarily been able to achieve using only their own resources.

    What if the company and the club then prioritised all these payments to footballers and football related activities, whilst failing to keep pension committments, repay loans , and eventually suffering insolvency events at both club and company.

    Now we know Rangers were liquidated. What is less well known is that Murray Sports , who were a beneficiary of these loans has also been liquidated.

    So given all of the above , is this State Aid ? I have to admit , i don’t know , but it certainly doesn’t pass the smell test so beloved of David Murray.

    Maybe SIR David would like to explain to UK taxpayers what has happened to hundreds of £millions lent to his organisations, and which has been such a severe drain on the public purse. The money is not being repaid , will not be repaid and Murray who previously was narcissistic in his love of public proclamation , should be held to account


  24. As an addition to the previous post. Rangers were allowed to spend £6 million in transfer fees in season 2010-11, whilst their banking was under the effective control of the UK state

    Now to my way of thinking thats no different to a bankrupt being allowed to fly first class and stay at The Connaught , just because he used to do that using the banks money previously.

    Lloyds had a choice in season 2010-11 , they could have denied Rangers and Walter Smith the ability to sign players and therefore not effectively aid their chances of winning.

    They did not , and in providing this aid they denied all SPL clubs the opportunity to earn the maximum sporting and financial success their own efforts merited.


  25. Barcabhoy says:
    November 13, 2014 at 6:18 pm

    You make a goof case, but, you are whistling in the wind.

    The banks have been fined some 300 billion, since Brown & Darling “fixed the banking system”, a whole host of enquiries, criminal and civil should be under way, but no-one wants to know. Too big too fail, also meant too big to jail it seems 😈

    No-one at any political level wants to know. HSBC have been accused of misleading the House of Commons, the only outlet to pick the story up was Russia Today – go figure


  26. scapaflow says:
    November 13, 2014 at 6:26 pm

    You make a goof case…
    ———-

    Funny typo 😆

    Yes, the BBC behaving like Pravda and RT a thoughtful, critical voice. Times are a changin,


  27. Re DUFC/Rangers and Charlie Telfer compensation; local press now reporting Stephen Thompson denying DU have upped their compensation offer (sorry but not up on websites yet so no link available but on back page of tonight’s evening paper in Dundee).


  28. AmFearLiathMòr @ 5.55pm:

    “I’m not one of the members, I just turn up at the gate occasionally on saturday when circumstances allow (was a season ticket holder at one time), but as far as I’m aware, those fans that are members didn’t get a say on the appointment.”

    I was a member at the time. We didn’t get a say. The general system seems to be pretty much that the members vote on the board and a few specific issues, then the board does all the actual day-to-day running of the club, including choosing the manager.

    The overwhelming majority of Clyde fans I know did not want Barry Ferguson as manager, and were extremely displeased by the appointment. Some have not been back.

    I’m no longer a member, so no idea if anything’s different now.


  29. Barcabhoy says:
    November 13, 2014 at 5:58 pm

    Barca – as you know, HMRC on BDO Liquidation Committee and a report due in a couple of days
    That`ll be two years so about time they published something or some FOIs going HMRCs way
    Events leading up to administration shouldn`t be an `official secret` to taxpayers
    Or criminal investigations of this nightmare! 😡
    mtp


  30. I notice that Roddy reporting that Celtic v Rangers LC semi likely to be played on Sunday 1st Feb – no doubt police scotland will be delighted that it’s on a weekend allowing for much post match bevvying and all that’s likely to entail… 😕 😕

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/scottish-league-cup/11227367/Rangerss-Scottish-League-Cup-clash-with-Celtic-to-take-place-on-a-weekend-following-TV-compromise.html

    [apologies if covered before as dated yesterday but don’t think I’ve seen it on here – not too many Telegraph readers on site I guess 😀 ]


  31. Telegraph article interesting for the Sevco update below the tv scheduling story. Interesting for its balance and logical conclusion that is.


  32. ecobhoy says:
    November 13, 2014 at 5:29 pm
    3 0 Rate This

    @wottpi

    Checked with RTE – apparently BBC can be accessed in the Republic through Saorview, Freeview, UPC and SKY. I have no idea what channels are available though
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    All UK free view channels are acssesable in any part of Europe with a satalite dish pointed at 28.2East (sky’s satalite)
    I myself here in bonny Scotland have access to all Irish channels including setanta which show a live EPL game at 3pm every Saturday
    🙂


  33. AmFearLiathMòr says:
    November 13, 2014 at 5:55 pm
    2 0 Rate This
    ———–

    Rightful place? In one sense, yes. How many clubs have not suffered since the inception of the now defunct breakaway league? And also as a result of the terrible twins’ veto in that obscene, self-serving setup?

    You know, there’s a Billy Reid of Accies lineage working not far from Pastryland in the Swedish ‘Superettan’, which is the equivalent of the Championship. He is only assistent trainer. There was also a Kenny Sheils available, outspoken, likeable guy with undoubted talent and enthusiasm. Don’t know if BF was an attempt to attract disaffected Ibroxonians, but he would not have been my first choice either. His toys-oot-the-pram towards Le Guen was disgraceful and the Scotland thing pathetic. Of course, he’s a real Rangers legned so he gets a column in the DR — help oor collective boabs 🙄


  34. Stuff being fed to Loyal Bears, read on

    £10m to spend in January
    Ally McCoist will be given a £10 million January transfer budget, courtesy of controversial Mike Ashley. Ashley has all but confirmed he will front the funds, with an Ibrox source telling us the board have been told to “use the funds effectively to push the team through to a cup final and back to the Premier League.” The source said the decision was highly influenced by Ashley’s close friend & Ibrox adviser Derek Llambias, who believes committing these funds to the club will not only strengthen the team, but strengthen Ashley’s position with Rangers supporters.

    Who said lucrative PR is dead rubbish promoted to keep cash flowing to rubbish spivs controlling PR?
    mtp


  35. Thought it was interesting that Michael Garcia, the lawyer who conducted the corruption investigation on behalf of FIFA, has loudly proclaimed his unhappiness with a published report that “contains numerous materially incomplete and erroneous representations”.

    I’m sure that any members of the legal profession in Scotland would be similarly vocal should they find themselves misled and/or misdirected during the course of any investigation they might have undertaken into sport-related matters.

    The SMSM too would undoubtedly support such a highly principled legal voice and even without such a lead they would surely press for justice to be done “without fear or favour”.

    Aye….

    Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.


  36. Bam Potter/AmFearLiathMòr,

    I’m still a member/owner but couldn’t expect to be consulted on which candidate should be manager. Whatever I think of the decision, it wouldn’t be fair on the unsuccessful candidates to be exposed so publicly. Who would apply, knowing that their interview responses could be pored over by hundreds of fans? (Yes, I said hundreds) For me, it just wouldn’t work.
    Barry Ferguson was supposed to arrive with back up but the back up backed out. That’s what’s made it even more of a gamble. Bob Malcolm is now the wise and calming voice of experience in his ear! That both benefitted from financial doping sickens me (as does the latter’s assault on one his players at Blackpool).
    BF played about 47 minutes – well into the season (I suspect he was pressured into it) – before hobbling off. He has a screw loose. In his ankle.
    As to BF’s journalism, I don’t look at his column. I get snippets from here and TheClumpany and it doesn’t help my blood pressure but there was a “meh” reaction on the Clyde forum, recently, to his ‘Rangers’ drum-beating (and support of shady characters).


  37. Danish Pastry says:
    November 13, 2014 at 7:31 pm
    0 0 Rate This

    AmFearLiathMòr says:
    November 13, 2014 at 5:55 pm
    2 0 Rate This
    ———–

    Rightful place? In one sense, yes. How many clubs have not suffered since the inception of the now defunct breakaway league? And also as a result of the terrble twins’ veto in that obscene, self-serving setup?
    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Would that be Aberdeen and Celtic you are referring to Dainish?

    The clubs which voted to keep the 11-1 system?
    And personally I can see why when I look at the attendance’s at Kilmarnock Hamilton etc

    Why should they get a share of a 20-60k gate when they can’t even half fill their own ground’s?

    Sorry if I offend fans of the above mentioned clubs (and they are very good clubs who deserve to be better supported)


  38. We have a new description for 2012

    I was in Tesco and looking at the magazines as Mrs G went through her baking magazines of choice.

    Anyways, front of 442, the worlds greatest derbies, and I thought this will be interesting.

    On the page devoted to the Derby-no-more there were lots of stories of past games but the only mention of recent history was regarding how much money was lost to the economy when Rangers’ forced relegation took place


  39. Danish, if you think Barry Ferguson is unpopular, there would be Armageddon if Billy Reid returned to Broadwood. He did a great job for Accies, while still the Clyde manager.


  40. Flocculent Apoidea says:
    November 13, 2014 at 7:55 pm
    1 0 Rate This

    Danish, if you think Barry Ferguson is unpopular, there would be Armageddon if Billy Reid returned to Broadwood. He did a great job for Accies, while still the Clyde manager.
    ———-

    Is he unforgiven? The point is: he was and is possibly available; has more experience now than then, is perhaps better for it, and wouldn’t be obsessed about the New Entity.

    @Tcup,
    No, not Aberdeen, even though their subsequent position was disappointing. For most of the breakaway’s existence there were only two teams that had the power of life and death in SPL politics.

    And in the bigger picture, who doesn’t want a bigger league? But a rush job for 2015-16 just to save an illegitimate entity? No thanks.


  41. Wrong Danish
    Aberdeen voted with Celtic and Rangers on many thing’s while the SPL existed

    On 1 issue where the 11-1 did not count was TV broadcasting Wright’s
    The vote went 8-3
    Aberdeen Celtic & rangers wanted to go with the offer Sky put forward roughly 100m
    The rest wanted to stay with a setanta sports who offered 125m

    The 3 teams put forward that setantas business plan and financial state and projected income was optimistic at best
    They wanted to go with a stable plan
    The rest seen £££££££££

    The rest is history
    And clubs are still paying for it


  42. ecobhoy
    well done and a big thumb up for all your hard work 🙂


  43. tcup 2012 says:
    November 13, 2014 at 8:40 pm

    The rest is history
    And clubs are still paying for it
    ———————————-
    IMO largely due to SKY’s anti-competitive practices and specifically their bid for IIRC the third tranche of EPL games which muscled out Setanta…can’t say I’m unhappy to see them having to deal with some genuine competition from BT who have big enough pockets to slug it out with them…long term they may come to regret having shafted Setanta ❓


  44. what now?

    keith jackson ‏@tedermeatballs 5m5 minutes ago
    Some interesting news coming … could be one of those nights!!


  45. parttimearab says:
    November 13, 2014 at 9:17 pm

    Sky never shafted Setanta

    Sky had already built up its customer base and broadcasting structure
    Setanta were to late to the game and without the financial mussel required to get a stable footing

    Also the extra subscription for settanta did not appeal to the masses especially were they had to target their target base England

    The same reason BT give their package away with their main business Phone line’s
    Although you are correct about BT’s financial mussel as proved with the CL


  46. So Ashley has advanced more money for Nov payroll but not December all sorts of fun if admin/liquidation starts before payday December.

    Points deduction would kill any hope of promotion and admin would mean a cull of all the first team

    Ashley been having meetings with the SFA/SPFL? – Guarantee league reconstruction with sevco in Premiership and I will keep them going till insolvency event.

    I have heard the first rumblings this week WGS, John Hughes and Alan Johnston.

    Would really be the end of Scottish football


  47. Reconstruction. This year? Next year?
    Never going to happen no matter which idiot proposes/promotes it.
    We will do what we did last time and beat them into the dust.


  48. paulsatim says: November 13, 2014 at 9:26 pm

    what now?

    keith jackson ‏@tedermeatballs 5m5 minutes ago
    Some interesting news coming … could be one of those nights!!
    ======================
    keith jackson ‏@tedermeatballs · 3m3 minutes ago
    Story involves a very toxic finance man, a video and a meeting at scotland’s team hotel. @Daily_Record digital folk will have it up soon.


  49. tcup 2012 says:
    November 13, 2014 at 8:40 pm
    12 0 Rate This

    Wrong Danish
    Aberdeen voted with Celtic and Rangers on many thing’s while the SPL existed

    On 1 issue where the 11-1 did not count was TV broadcasting Wright’s
    The vote went 8-3
    Aberdeen Celtic & rangers wanted to go with the offer Sky put forward roughly 100m
    The rest wanted to stay with a setanta sports who offered 125m

    The 3 teams put forward that setantas business plan and financial state and projected income was optimistic at best
    They wanted to go with a stable plan
    The rest seen £££££££££

    The rest is history
    And clubs are still paying for it
    ———–

    So the axis of evil included Aberdeen? Interesting.

    Odd that 11-1 existed at all then. What was the point? Who did it protect? Very remiss of me to imagine that the two well-supported Glasgow clubs would ever have used it to their mutual advantage. Simple majority should have sufficed, though.

    Yes, rejection of Sky deal looks insane in hindsight. But how many English clubs are in ruinous debt today in spite if Sky’s millions?


  50. paulsatim says:
    November 13, 2014 at 9:26 pm

    what now?

    keith jackson ‏@tedermeatballs 5m5 minutes ago
    Some interesting news coming … could be one of those nights!!
    =================================================================
    Suppose tomorrow could be an ideal day to try and ‘bury news’ whilst everyone is focused on the international match ?


  51. “keith jackson @tedermeatballs · 13m 13 minutes ago
    Story involves a very toxic finance man, a video and a meeting at scotland’s team hotel. @Daily_Record digital folk will have it up soon.”


  52. keith jackson ‏@tedermeatballs · 3m3 minutes ago
    Story involves a very toxic finance man, a video and a meeting at scotland’s team hotel. @Daily_Record digital folk will have it up soon.
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Is that all that Keef guy dis all day ?
    Gobble tender meatballs?
    Nae wonder his scoops are offal


  53. Danish Pastry says:
    November 13, 2014 at 10:28 pm
    0 1 Rate This
    ::::::::::::::::::;;;;::

    Danish not everything is to do with Celtic and Rangers

    Yes the 11-1 suited them
    But it must also have suited everyone else as they allowed it :mrgreen:

    Celtic and Rangers did not agree on everything
    Nor did the other teams
    Besides the 11-1 was not always in place in the SPL
    There were only 10 teams for a long period and the 11-1 voting system only came around when they went to 12
    11-1 was brought in to protect everyone in the SPL
    I don’t hear you shouting about when the SPL brought in the ludicrous stadium criteria
    I wonder how the voting went on that 1
    11-1
    10-2
    Or more likely
    12-0


  54. Danish Pastry says:
    November 13, 2014 at 10:28 pm

    I’m sure the regular coffee time meetings between the Ranger’s and Celtic CEOs, when Bain was around, were purely social affairs, discussing the weather and how the golf went at the weekend. 😉


  55. My tuppence worth on the league reconstruction possibility is that I think it is a great idea as I have long been an advocate of two tiers of 18 with a pyramid structure below. But it cannot, MUST NOT be done without a seasons notice at least and not while there is any whiff of it being done for “ulterior motives”(!).

    With regards to Mr Ashley, since he’s putting more money in it appears that he’s serious. If he does end up in control, (if he’s not already), I fail to see how it can be anything but a step up from what we’ve got now. Im under no illusions that he’s going to pump in silly money, but nor is he in the asset stripping business. If he’s putting in proper money then I think we can write off liquidation events. Asto the fit and proper / dual interest issues…hahahahahahahaha. Good one. Remember it’s the SFA we’re talking about.


  56. The story involves a very toxic finance man with Sevco connections.

    Oh come on keef, at least narrow it down a bit!


  57. Ryan,

    He’s not in the asset stripping business in so far as he recognises when there’s no meaningful hassle free assets left. He is however in the long term milking business. Question is, is he the type who needs a prize winning cow, or just a cow that milks.


  58. Danish, at the risk of derailing with OT, so my final comment on this. BR is unforgiven and unaffordable. Also, there may be, still, in a drawer at Broadwood, the contract that BR intended signing but just never got round to it. Somewhat McCoistian.


  59. The meeting doesn’t surprise me. The meeting place does. Almost as if they wanted to be seen. Or alternatively they were invited by someone stupid enough to think the Murray stunt would work again.


  60. Smugas says:
    November 13, 2014 at 11:02 pm

    Not surprised either, but the public nature of it, seems almost designed to torpedo the attempt to sell more season tickets and win the fans over :mrgreen:


  61. Scapa,

    Someone seems to have added a “but” to your otherwise perfectly correct sentence! :mrgreen:


  62. Smug as I think we have the same suspicions. However I think right now Mr Ashley is on the milking end, and it might be different if it was his own game. I have no doubt he’s only there to take out his end, but if he can do that then it must mean there are profits to be made. If he can turn a profit from us then we’ll be better for it, certainly better than losing the amount of money we have been. There are easier ways, with less reputationsl damage, for a man of his resources to make a few million quid than get involved with our chaos.


  63. Ryan,

    Yup same page indeed!

    “If he can turn a profit from us we’ll be all the better for it”

    Now that’s not a sentence I expect to see keef and co use any time soon.


  64. From the Record’s ” Stockbridge” piece.

    “The Record exposed Stockbridge for secretly filming ex-chairman Malcolm Murray at the end of a boozy dinner – a tape leaked online.”

    They ” exposed” a story that had already been circulated online.

    Shameless.


  65. scapaflow says:
    November 13, 2014 at 10:54 pm
    Ok Goosey, why would Ashley’s hatchet men be talking to Brian Stockbridge?
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Not enough facts
    Could be
    Ashley can`t get his way without knocking out a big shareholder with a dodgy track record at RIFC
    Some of the evidence needed to knock him out may be hidden somewhere safe
    and
    The Ashley team are sending the guy a message that Stockbridge and his inside information is up for sale
    For example
    Green bought the RFC IP and “history” from D&P via Sevco Scotland used it to get the SFA licence and then bought it personally and leased it back to TRFC for £1 before Sevco changed its name to TRFC
    i.e The RFC IP was owned by Sevco Scotland when the SFA associate licence was granted but it was sold direct to Green before the name change to TRFC
    If so
    This is a big secret requiring just enough documentary evidence to prove it is legal
    If true it would mean
    RIFC could not have legally sold any RFC IP to Ashley at IPO time since it was only leased by TRFC from Green and could only be sold with Greens agreement
    This may explain why Green went to great lengths to try unsuccessfully to buy back the Stadium naming rights
    ……….
    Or it might just be Sods Law


  66. scapaflow says:
    November 13, 2014 at 11:19 pm
    0 0 Rate This

    Smugas says:
    November 13, 2014 at 11:02 pm

    Not surprised either, but the public nature of it, seems almost designed to torpedo the attempt to sell more season tickets and win the fans over
    —————————–
    And I assume, given that it’s the Scotland team’s hotel that the blazers would be there in force ❓

    Too obvious for an actual meeting with them but everyone will draw that conclusion….so an easy way to embarrass them ❓ …MA beginning to put some pressure on the SFA..look who I’m in contact with…guess what they’re telling me… ❓


  67. Flocculent Apoidea says:
    November 13, 2014 at 10:57 pm
    1 0 Rate This

    Danish, at the risk of derailing with OT, so my final comment on this. BR is unforgiven and unaffordable. Also, there may be, still, in a drawer at Broadwood, the contract that BR intended signing but just never got round to it. Somewhat McCoistian
    ———-

    Fair enough. I don’t have a dog in that fight. Would certainly like to see Clyde (and similar clubs) prosper again, though. Without getting hung up on individuals, it just occurred that there could have been other options than BF.


  68. tcup 2012 says:
    November 13, 2014 at 10:45 pm
    1 2 Rate This

    …I don’t hear you shouting about when the SPL brought in the ludicrous stadium criteria.
    ———–

    You’ve lost me now. Hopefully, I don’t shout about anything. And yes, I did work out that 11-1 wasn’t relative in the 10-team SPL, but thanks for reminding me.

    Perhaps you’re missing the big picture. The original breakaway was just plain wrong, imo. Those who left the others behind had their motives. I disagreed with them then and still disagree with an elitist members club. The reunification of the league bodies is hugely positive, as will be bigger leagues allowing the smaller teams a chance to engage again, grow their clubs and let their youth departments see a potential reward for hard work.

    An essential part should be 3-up/down with some play-off scenarios included. Keeps both ends of the league exciting and new blood coming into the top tier.

    The SPL with its restrictive, protectionist structure was grossly unfair, not to mention about as exciting as watching paint dry. Don’t know if your team is one of those dreaming of leaving Scottish football, but Scotland’s biggest teams would be nothing today without the supporting structure they stand on.


  69. I mentioned the ludicrous stadium criteria and shouting
    As you seem to be blaming the whole SPL setup and voting system on 2 particular clubs

    On your last post you do clarify that you Blame all the clubs involved So I stand corrected

    Bit I have to disagree that the current set up is more fair and the reunification is better for all
    IMO it would never have happened if 1 new club hadn’t entered the league 2 years ago and rangers hadn’t ceased to be
    IMO the reunification was only brought to the fore and league setups rearranged to assist 1 club as would a larger league

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