History, Neighbours and Made Up News

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History, Neighbours and Made Up News

Or, a story of how and why Mr Lawwell consigned resolution 12 to the deepest grass;
by Finloch


“It’s about history and being neighbours”, young Elisabeth said to her mum.

And it has to be done for tomorrow, Elisabeth said.

“I’m supposed to ask in an in-person interview about what life was like where an older neighbour grew up and what was life like when the neighbour was my age.

It’s not my fault that we’re new here and haven’t spoken to our old, next door neighbour yet and don’t even know his name.

“I’ve an idea her mother said, why don’t you make it up.

Pretend you’re asking him questions and then write down the answers you think he’d give”.

“It’s supposed to be true”, Elisabeth said. “It’s for News”.

“They’ll never know”, her mother said. “Just make it up.

The real news is always made up anyway”.

 

publicLibraryI was lucky enough to catch Ali Smith at the Edinburgh Book Festival.

I was part of a very diverse audience and unusually for this kind of event nobody in the sold-out Charlotte Square tent had a Scooby about what she was going to share with us.

Most would have been expecting a reading or two from her recent short story collection, Public Library, about the cynical, thoughtless and almost silent and unpublicised demise of Libraries up and down our land.

Our libraries.

Our land.

Ali is always value for money though and was amazing, reading from her as yet unpublished “Autumn” book, the first she said of a four-book series.

As I listened to her, I was also thinking and juggling around at the back of my mind about what I was going to write for this blog, having been asked for my thoughts, as a non-involved, non-Celtic supporter, on how I see the Resolution 12 situation.

 

Well Ali’s words stung like a bee and proved quite inspirational. The wisdom and clarity in her new books is highly relevant to all of us who care about Scottish Football and Resolution 12 including Mr Lawwell, Mr Doncaster, Mr Regan, Mr Petrie and us too – the real stakeholders.

 

Ali also shared with us a Bernard Maclaverty insight from when he once visited a school as part of (I think) a Scottish creative writing initiative and in the course of his talk asked some youngsters,

“What is fiction” ?

Someone put their hand up and said “Please Sir, it’s made up truth”.

 

Near the end Ali also got to talking about post Brexit Britain and used the chaos to ask the bigger question.

“Why do we never seem to have real debates about anything and why in any “debate” we might see or read that there never seems to be room for to-ing and fro-ing on points because everyone seems to have already made their minds up and just wants to maintain their status quos, achieve their own personal agendas or to steamroller us all to their point of view”.

 

“People in power seem to be genuinely scared of honest debates”, she said.

She asked how without more real discussions and insightful and open minded debates can any of us (and the debaters themselves too) learn because without that we will just get more of what we’ve had.

And that’s not good enough.

 

So thanks Ali I’m going to combine these three things from your hour along with two personal career experiences and review Mr Lawwell and his company’s reaction to the bona fide Resolution 12 raised by some of his shareholders a few years ago.

(My career experiences were as the head of a small, and treated as unimportant, company that was part of a worldwide group of companies run (badly) out of the US; and my time as head of a trade association that had two very dominant and troublesome members).

 

My Five Insights to review Resolution 12 are.

  1. Some people think  “made up news is fine” and feed us all with it all the time.
  2. Don’t expect real discussions or debates about anything in your club. No two way dialogues, except from those about money once a year.
  3. “Made up Truths” become gospel not to be challenged.
  4. The people running the club know they are smarter and more important than any of their minority or remote stakeholders.
  5. All decisions that really matter in football or indeed in any business are pre-agreed and never discussed in the open.

So now to what I think of Resolution 12.

My starting point is to say this. It is wrong to see or to discuss Mr Lawwell and Resolution 12 as being about the awarding of a license – or the boardroom processes since The Requisitioners first raised it.

Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.

In the late Murray days at Ibrox and in the early Whyte ownership period there had been rumours, and I’m certain deep and meaningful business discussions between the heads of the SFA and SPL and their key committee members.

You can be sure that the SFA, SPL, Celtic and others were all watching the post Murray Rangers situation closely, and the new regime at Ibrox and related financial stuff would have been the talk of the exclusive football steamies.

Despite what some Celtic fans believe, the reality has always been that while Rangers may have dominated (just) all things SFA and SPL, nothing was ever done without the knowledge of and input from the green side of the Old Firm business model.

Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.

Scotland’s unique, idiosyncratic, religio-political old firm business model was not just about driving the individual Glasgow teams to their leviathan duopoly in Scottish football. We all knew (because we were told so) that it was also the commercial bedrock of the business that is Scottish Football.

And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.

Put simply, Regan who was quite new, was convinced at the time – and still is absolutely certain – that the SFA and Scottish Football needed a dominant Celtic and Rangers, and he also personally needed and needs the support of their CEO’s.

Doncaster too was convinced that the SPL needed Celtic and Rangers arch rivalry with all it entails, delivering TV monies and maximizing his bonuses. He too also personally required and requires the support of the Old Firm CEO’s.

Lawwell the astute numbers man, under a constant watchful eye from Dublin, needed Rangers to ensure his business plan did not develop un-fillable black holes.

And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.

Importantly, Peter was also one of a small influential football group who effectively controlled the actions of Regan and Doncaster. Nothing strategic would ever have been done by either of them without his involvement and input. That doesn’t mean he necessarily knew all the detail about  Craig’s UEFA license shenanigans but he’d have had his suspicions.

And you know something, – at a squeeze I think he and Desmond might have thought keeping a Rangers team alive (for its future dependable revenue streams) was maybe even worth one season’s lost Champions League status.

There is no doubt in my mind that in 2011 Peter and the Celtic Board were worried but supportive of and committed to keeping the Rangers company alive.

Looking back I don’t know when Lawwell and Desmond actually discovered de facto that Rangers should not have been awarded the license.

Was it before it was awarded?

Was it after by which time it was too late anyway?

Those would be two good questions to ask them.

I’d suggest that by the time they knew for sure it was too late, but I could be wrong.

Anyway history shows that pretty quickly after McCoist failed in Europe, Lawwell committed his club to the complex and complicated secret Five-Way Agreement and all it entailed.

Celtic were senior signed-up members of the attempt to help protect and leverage the future blue revenue streams into the SPL then the SPL 2 then the bottom level.

It was all about the blue pound.

It was all about the blue pound into the future.

It was all about the blue pound into the future being central in the business model at Celtic that needed (then and now) a blue pound generating Rangers.

We all know now that compromise was somehow reached ahead of the Brechin cup tie in the summer of 2012.

Many – in fact most of –  Scottish football fans were glad that football had once again broken out, having become fed up with all the politics, and were glad to return to talking about players and stuff.

Football gossip is after all more comfortable than finding out we’d all been cheated for years.

Not all fans were ready to “Move-on” however.

Some, like many of us on this site and others like it wanted to dig deeper and examine just what happened and who did what.

Some wanted Celtic as the most wronged club to do and say more about Sporting Integrity.

Some wanted to rub their old rivals into the dirt.

Some wanted a full and frank review because they believed that without Sporting Integrity we would make the same mistakes in the future.

I’d be one of these fans.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Celtic shareholders who pieced together the jigsaw that led to Resolution 12, correctly identified that their club were illegally denied a place in the Champions League and denied substantial revenues.

Fair play to them.

If  I was a Celtic shareholder I personally would have wanted to know why my board had not pursued these significant revenues that were due to my company.

It was and is a big deal.

No it was and is a huge deal.

It remains an open sore and everyone involved seems to have ducked any blame.

I applaud those Requisitioner Shareholders for how they have gone about the process, and I have a huge respect for everything they have done on behalf of Celtic and fans of all Scottish clubs.

However in my opinion it was always doomed to failure because of the simple fact that their own club, having been an integral part of the whole murky “Armageddon” process, had already moved on into the new world they had helped to forge, and did not and could not look back.

So Resolution 12 was treated politely but cleverly by the club in the finest traditions of Sir Humphrey.

They did not want to fight their shareholders corner then and I’d suggest still don’t – and wont.

 

So going back to my five points earlier.

 

  1. Mr Lawwell et al did not want to establish the real truth, which they already knew. Hey had already signed up to what had been reported, moved the club on and spent his personal bonuses along the way no doubt.
  2. Mr Lawwell et al did not want a real debate because he and his small team had already done what they believed at the time to be right for the club they were paid to manage.
    Nothing more to say.
    And yes he could mumble agreement that Sporting Integrity is important when cornered but between us chaps it wouldn’t ever have filled the yawning gaps in the stands at Celtic Park without a Rangers counterbalance.
  3. Rangers are now back and the Old Firm is once again dominating Scottish Football.
    The truth at Celtic Park is we need each other and season book sales and TV revenues are up proving my point all along.
  4. We tolerate the intellectual end of our support, just, but they are hard work and you’d think they own the club.
    We even quite enjoy some of their stuff sometimes as long as its not too political but  we have a business to run and quite frankly sometimes they just don’t get it. They should realise the SFA and the SPFL are there to do a job for us and we keep them on a short enough leash.
  5. We will always be grateful to Fergus for what he did. We benefited at the time from the fan’s money and now run a very successful shareholder liaison programme. Once a year we have an AGM and try to manage the reality of running a business while having to hear from people who would prefer us to regress to what we were in the 1880s. Shareholders are fine but this club is a business and must be run as such.

 

My Five Insights sum up the position and stance of the Celtic Board.

I don’t know what will happen to Resolution 12.

The club never wanted it because they are a business and see the world differently from the group of fans who see themselves as the Celtic soul.

I applaud these Celtic fans.

Celtic does not deserve you.

About the author

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Finloch author

Finloch has been a member of SFM since it's inception. A Hearts fan, he also penned the blog, Look Back to Look Forward

1,353 Comments so far

Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on5:47 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Re the dolls. as i understand they were nowhere near the Green Brigade but were at the other side of the stadium.It looks as if people have jumped in feet first and blamed the GB

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easyJamboPosted on5:58 pm - Sep 12, 2016


wottpi  September 12, 2016 at 16:51
——————————-
The total salary costs for the whole business in 2014/15 were £13.3M, down from £14.7M and £17.9M in the prior years.

I don’t think last year’s figures will be nearly as bad as some are predicting.  The half year figures only showed an operational loss of £288K.  Total costs including wages were down by £2M for the first half alone.  I know the second half of the year will produce higher losses, but I can’t see the final figure being much more than £2M-£3M.  ST income will have been up by around £3M on the previous year (2013/14), while the wage bill continued to fall.

This season’s ST sales will be up a further £3M-£3.5M on the back of higher sale numbers and price increases, so that will be where the additional salaries will come from.

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wottpiPosted on6:10 pm - Sep 12, 2016


EASYJAMBO
SEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 17:58

Thanks EJ. I had forgotten about the six monthlies.

That will be the auditioned ones 07

I have no doubt that the current board will have been trying to make savings and are trying to make best use of the additional monies from increased ticket prices and decent crowds.
However I still cannot see where money is coming from to invest and improve to the level required, other than the fans pockets and I don’t think that will be enough to match the club’s ambitions.

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Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on6:53 pm - Sep 12, 2016


I see Phil has posted something on the state aid.
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/a-very-strange-type-of-state-aid/#more-7935
The sale price achieved by the council was approximately three times higher than the retrospective valuation of the land.
I know Auldheid if i remember right, put a lot of research into this.

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upthehoopsPosted on7:03 pm - Sep 12, 2016


CLUSTER ONESEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 17:47
Re the dolls. as i understand they were nowhere near the Green Brigade but were at the other side of the stadium.It looks as if people have jumped in feet first and blamed the GB

===============================

I’ve been loathe to get involved in this up until now, but I’m happy to voice my utter disgust like many of my fellow fans. You are right the dolls were not the work of the Green Brigade but they scored a massive own goal of their own with one particular banner. I agree fully with what Big Pink said earlier about this banner. All they succeeded in doing was taking away from what was a great day for the club. Don’t get me started about the ridiculous retort from Club 1872, and indeed from Rangers themselves. 

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Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on7:39 pm - Sep 12, 2016


UPTHEHOOPSSEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 19:03
I’ve been loathe to get involved in this up until now,
Me to.
But i was just trying to get the facts right as i understand them.
and i don’t condone any of the banners or dolls.as you said it is beginning to take the shine off a great celtic result on the park.
————-
Don’t get me started about the ridiculous retort from Club 1872, and indeed from Rangers themselves.

i have not read that yet. but by god not another statement

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paddy malarkey

paddy malarkeyPosted on7:55 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Speaking from the bottom of the table, both sets of fans delivered what was expected from them . I would have all their fixtures played behind closed doors to save them from themselves .

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John ClarkPosted on8:48 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Rubicon1September 12, 2016 at 13:13
‘…He told me his court source had advised him the BDO appeal, if it is heard, is scheduled for the Supreme Court in June 2017.’
______
Well done , Rubicon1, in speaking to AT, and getting that info about the Supreme Court Appeal.
Is there, though, some doubt as to whether it will go ahead, that BDO might withdraw the appeal?

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shug

shugPosted on8:50 pm - Sep 12, 2016


I see at least 1 video has appeared on FB of the away support at Saturdays derby match destroying the toilets and engaging in some singing.

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Tartanwulver

TartanwulverPosted on8:56 pm - Sep 12, 2016


The Rangers are sorely in need of some PR advice on when a period of silence might be to their advantage. Empty barrels, most noise and all that.

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Tincks

TincksPosted on9:01 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Cluster One,

I think from memory it was Ecobhoy who demonstrably dismantled the rantings of the State Aid fruit loops.

Tincks

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Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on9:37 pm - Sep 12, 2016


TINCKSSEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 21:01       3 Votes 
Cluster One,
I think from memory it was Ecobhoy who demonstrably dismantled the rantings of the State Aid fruit loops.
Tincks
———
Thanks for clarification.Idid have some screen grabs but can’t find them just now01

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HighlanderPosted on9:39 pm - Sep 12, 2016


I daresay the irony of Rangers* officials chastising another club’s fans for “a sickening and shameful display of outright sectarian hatred” will be lost on the custodians of the current version of the club operating out of Ibrox, given the long and shameful sectarian history of the club founded in 1872 that they claim was Rangers then, Rangers now and Rangers forever.
 
It is fair to say that I was not shocked by what took place at Celtic Park on Saturday involving both sets of supporters, just disappointed as usual. It’s not as if this sort of thing, and worse, hasn’t been happening for a century or so of bitter rivalry, notwithstanding that one of the clubs involved in Saturday’s match has a history of little more than four years.
 
It illustrates why those two clubs don’t want anything to do with Strict Liability, whereby clubs pay the penalty for the behaviour of their fans. I have a modicum of sympathy for the clubs in that respect, bearing in mind it would have been nigh on impossible for club officials to have foreseen and prevented the specific, well documented problems that transpired.
 
However, I believe that if the football clubs – that’s all the clubs, not just Rangers* and Celtic – won’t agree to introduce Strict Liability, it should be imposed on them by Government, simply because it’s the only way to eradicate, or at least greatly reduce the off-field problems that are a blight on our game. It’s hardly rocket science to recognise that instances of singing proscribed songs have increased exponentially in recent times because the clubs no longer suffer a fine, points deduction or are forced to play games behind closed doors. Of course, singing from a banned songbook is far from the only, or worst, misdemeanour carried out by so-called fans.
 
Strict Liability wouldn’t only affect ‘the big two’, though their significantly higher supporter numbers would likely lead to more infringements than the rest. This could even be considered a leveller by the smaller clubs if the big two were to lose several points over the season because of the behaviour of their fans.
 
‘Mon the politicians.  

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goosygoosyPosted on9:45 pm - Sep 12, 2016


They might be Tims , They might be Bears

But they have the same ability to express hilarious Glasgow humour
…………….
From the Bears Den re misbehaving CFC  and TRFC  fans

I’m not sure what the police are saying here, 
They saw the dolls hanging, but did not take action because no one was offended enough to report it at the time, making the comments that 90% of their fans were disgusted by it as utter nonsense,
or….
They never saw the dolls hanging at the time, so need someone to report it now, before they will look into it.
If it’s the latter, then it actually frightening that there was  two life size effigies hanging by the neck from the top tier of the stand and not one of their officers spotted them.
The police seen the dummies and took about 20 minutes to react. By that time the dummies were taken away and hidden.
…………………
The punch line
“Some of our support thought they may have been hidden in the toilet ceiling and searched eagerly.

They only found a solitary bar of soap inscribed with the numbers 1887. Still in mint condition. ”

………………

Absolutely brilliant

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cowanpete

cowanpetePosted on9:54 pm - Sep 12, 2016


As a Hibby I have no axe to grind here.
Could any one of the Celtic FC fans / season ticket holders / shareholders on this board ask the following question to Celtic please?
” How much damage to Celtic Park was caused by visiting fans in seasons 2015-16, 2014-15, 2013-14, and 2012-13?
How much damage to Celtic Park was caused by visiting fans in season 2016-17 so far? “

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Jm15Posted on11:50 pm - Sep 12, 2016


Long time away, got scunnerd, but contstant lurker. However, last weekend’s events have caused me to engage again. Disgraceful behaviour from both sets of fans of the current Glasgow ‘Giants’. Effigies, vandalism, bigotry, sectarianism, hatred and bile. All wanted and lapped up by the SMSM. Don’t  tell me that English Et al, didn’t want this to happen. It pays their wages. In fact, i would ‘posit’ ( aye , have been lurking elsewhere, and he/ she is a fascinating read), that this is what they wanted all along, faux outrage, papers for sale. I get caught up in it, we all do. For the record, I am an Edinburgh boy,  a Jambo, Catholic, slightly lapsed, and still cannot get my head round the world that you, through there in Glasgow inhabit. It’s not like that through here. I assure you. Oh oh oh. I hoped we might move on. Lies from the governors of our game, deflections from the supporters organisations(proper response from the Forrest fellae today, but whataboutery still there), quite remarkable response from the ‘owners’, 1872, of the new club inhabiting ibrox ( sorry, but nails firmly hammered to the mast), and the ‘clubs’ response quite breathtaking. But let me be clear, the whataboutery from the Other club is equally disingenuous. See the state of tynecastle after Celtic visit, regularly toilets trashed, food outlets, stewards attacked and vandalised. I would quite happily accept the both of youse going away elsewhere. Neither of youse (using the vernacular here) are helpful or have any wish but to do anything other than attack each other. All other clubs are just cannon fodder for your interminable battle. 
Right, taking a deep breath and going to retry the recent Minfulness Training I was on. 

Might be back.

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upthehoopsPosted on7:22 am - Sep 13, 2016


HIGHLANDERSEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 21:39
Strict Liability wouldn’t only affect ‘the big two’, though their significantly higher supporter numbers would likely lead to more infringements than the rest. This could even be considered a leveller by the smaller clubs if the big two were to lose several points over the season because of the behaviour of their fans.

=============================

Scotland is not grown up enough for Strict Liability. At least, those who would administer it are not grown up enough.  If you take the current disciplinary system and the arbitrary way it is employed it tells you all you need to know. It is supposed to be applied equally to all clubs but clearly isn’t. Likewise with the shocking inconsistency of Referees when it comes to booking players for goal celebrations.  So much of what goes to the Compliance Officer rests with whether the media decide to make a fuss or not, and therein would lie a huge problem with Strict Liability.  In my view for it to have a chance of working there would have to be a fully agreed list of offences and penalties for each. It would have to apply in every game, not just high profile ones, and not just ones where the media decide to take the moral high ground. There could be no ifs, buts, maybes, or ‘if in the opinion of…’ etc.  It would be very difficult in Scotland to have Strict Liability that is evenly applied across every single club.  Just have a look at how the authorities dealt with Rangers liquidation. Even though rules were in place they just tossed them out the window because they didn’t like the outcome applying those rules would bring.  

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HighlanderPosted on7:50 am - Sep 13, 2016


UTH, I take your point about the sometimes baffling actions of the Compliance Officer, but would hope that if Strict Liability was imposed on the clubs by Government, the football authorities would consider themselves under greater scrutiny than in the past and feel compelled to act without fear or favour.
 
Thinking out of the box, there’s no reason why the Compliance Officer and those who make referrals to him/her couldn’t be from outside Scotland, thus eliminating potential claims of bias. Regardless, what is obvious is that doing nothing is not an option, yet that is exactly what our inept football authorities would undoubtedly choose to do.

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shug

shugPosted on7:55 am - Sep 13, 2016


Strict liability cannot and will not work there are too many of the wrong kind of fan at every club who would happily take the hit by posing as an other clubs supporters if it would benefit their club.Let us not try and kid ourselves here this is not just a Celtic and T’rangers problem it is a problem for all teams anyone who thinks their team does not have the same type of fans is lying to themselves.The problem is highlighted more for Celtic and T’rangers simply because they are who the media focus on as the rest of Scottish football is meaningless to them.Football teams cannot and really should not be held responsible for their fans as they have absolutely no control over what you or I get up to before during or after a match,all clubs can do is deal with the problems as they arise during a match.We could always play every match and I do mean every single match behind closed doors no fan participation what so ever but then if that is the case then we should just close the doors now as football in this wee country is finished.

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HighlanderPosted on8:02 am - Sep 13, 2016


SHUG
SEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 07:55
there are too many of the wrong kind of fan at every club who would happily take the hit by posing as an other clubs supporters if it would benefit their club.

Shug, apart from Chelsea fans rioting in Manchester, do you have any anecdotal evidence of this?

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shug

shugPosted on8:15 am - Sep 13, 2016


I could simply point out a certain manager getting attacked on the field during a match but would there be any point as the saying goes There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See. So no need to discuss further end of story.

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bluPosted on8:49 am - Sep 13, 2016


SHUGSEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 08:15 
I could simply point out a certain manager getting attacked on the field during a match but would there be any point as the saying goes There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See. So no need to discuss further end of story.

Shug, I assume you mean Hearts vs Celtic and the clown who tried to assault Neil Lennon? If so, that presents a different situation – as far as I’m aware the individual was a Hearts fan, not pretending to be anything else. If it had been a UEFA competition though Hearts would have been fined, just as Celtic and Dundee United have been for fan encroachment onto the pitch. Strict liability is the way to go in my view, and I wish that the clubs were big enough and brave enough to support it. 

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AmFearLiathMòr

AmFearLiathMòrPosted on9:06 am - Sep 13, 2016


 Strict liability cannot and will not work there are too many of the wrong kind of fan at every club who would happily take the hit by posing as an other clubs supporters if it would benefit their club.Let us not try and kid ourselves here this is not just a Celtic and T’rangers problem it is a problem for all teams anyone who thinks their team does not have the same type of fans is lying to themselves.The problem is highlighted more for Celtic and T’rangers simply because they are who the media focus on as the rest of Scottish football is meaningless to them.Football teams cannot and really should not be held responsible for their fans as they have absolutely no control over what you or I get up to before during or after a match,all clubs can do is deal with the problems as they arise during a match.We could always play every match and I do mean every single match behind closed doors no fan participation what so ever but then if that is the case then we should just close the doors now as football in this wee country is finished.

 

Have to agree with this.  We do tend to focus on Celtic and TRFC, but every club have elements in their support that need their extremities toe-d at some point.  With my team (Clyde), there is a limited control of what happens at Broadwood, with stewards able to control certain behaviours, and fans getting kicked out for utterly stupid behaviour, but it’s the away support where you see it most, where the club have very little control over the activity. For a small club,  we have a very passionate away support, and it’s great to be part of that, but you get certain individuals that over-step the mark, going from good-humoured banter and chants to just acting like out and out cretins.
Because we’re a small club, and given that Partick Thistle fans(who we laughably consider rivals when we haven’t been in the same division for god knows how long) don’t make up much of the newspaper buying demographic, we slip completely under the radar. There’s no papers to sell on the back of ‘Diddy Club Fans In Acting Like Morons Shocker!’ type headlines. Generally speaking, if strict liability was introduced, we’d probably get away with it most of the time, because there wouldn’t be Level 5 inspired outrage in the papers to see us punished.
If it was introduced, it would need to be driven by match observers, not newspapers, ‘Club’ statements or any other external factors.

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tayred

tayredPosted on9:15 am - Sep 13, 2016


So if not strict liability what is the solution then? We sure as hell can’t go on like this. We all knew it was going to happen, and I’ll safely predict it will happen at Pittodrie in 2 weeks time, and then at Ibrox for the next edition of the freak show. But folks seem to believe strict liability is apparently out of the question. 

Frankly it is the only solution, bar from banning away supporters from all “high risk” games that is. So, how many grounds have been damaged by (T)RFC fans in the past? CFC fans? AFC fans? Hearts fans, ….? We all know of a few high profile examples, but like was mentioned above, is that due to the high media interest in certain clubs over others? Banning the away support is the only way to prevent this happening again – kinda does away with a dribbling over-excitement regarding the return of the blue pound then doesn’t it!

Do nothing and I guarantee crowds will disappear. Lack of competition is a massive problem, over-pricing of tickets, poor product on the pitch, total mismanagement of the leagues, complete disinterest in the views of fans, etc, etc, etc, but throw violence and what is widely described elsewhere as “Weegie” behaviour into the mix (apologies to Patrick Thistle fans) and chairmen can kiss goodbye to any perceived advantage they had imagined in having TRFC back to fill their coffers twice a season.

JM15 was correct, this Blue on Green thing is just so utterly pathetic. I’ll bet all Glaswegians bristled at the “weegie” comment – but christ folks, look at the evidence, what do you expect? “Two cheeks” I know you hate, but open up and look at whats going on in your city. I love Glasgow, I had 4 very happy years living there, but this obscenity that is the religious hatred in your city is downright medieval. Move on for gods sake!! Perhaps we had been desensitised to it due to 4 years of almost total peace and harmony, and that it has made this “occasion” all the more painful to accept. Just picture how it looks for those looking in, and the press love it by the way, those crazy backward Scots..!

Strict liability isn’t perfect. But jesus guys, we can’t go on like this. The only way to solve this is by the clubs collectively doing something about it. The only way you will get a backward institution like TRFC to start taking its responsibility seriously is to get at them where it hurts, fines, closed door games, dropped points, etc etc. Their indignation and ostrich like behaviour can only last to long before they get the message. Continue the recent approach of doing nothing and we are well and truly fecked. CFC have a different battle, thankfully one that doesn’t seem quite so seated purely in religion these days, and god alone knows what will kick off at Pittodrie in a couple of weeks.

At least the AFC “occasion” will have feck all to do with religion – but there is one extremely deep well of anger and resentment held by AFC fans at the behaviour of and the biased treatment that TRFC have received which all has to be added to the historical issues between the two clubs.  I truly worry about that game, frankly much more than I worried about Saturdays game. It truly has the potential to explode. Armageddon folks – its closer now than its ever been, but Doncaster et al think its just great – that feckwit hasn’t a clue what kind of powder keg he has created. Never mind, he is safe in his posh office, its not him that will end up getting hurt. 

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tangoed

tangoedPosted on9:21 am - Sep 13, 2016


JM15SEPTEMBER 12, 2016 at 23:50
 
It’s not like that through here.
——————————————————————————–
 
More than 30 men have been charged following football-related disorder in the centre of Edinburgh.
 
http://stv.tv/news/east-central/1350539-more-than-30-arrested-over-football-related-disorder/
 
Violence erupted between two large groups of opposing fans in the streets surrounding the stadium just 15 minutes before a league match between the clubs in January.
 
http://www.scotsman.com/news/hearts-fan-banned-from-football-matches-after-attacking-rival-fan-1-4228101
 
Both happened in Edinburgh none involved Celtic or Sevco fans.

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Paradisebhoy

ParadisebhoyPosted on9:28 am - Sep 13, 2016


I tuned into Superscoreboard last night to see if Shug and DJ were still  tipping TRFC to win the League ( they are , apparently the players will have to run faster or something ) .
However, we were treated to a 60second monologue from Mr Keevins on bringing back the decency to Scottish Football . It sounded as if he was reading off a pre-prepared statement and he probably was .
I couldn’t fault anything he said . I tried phoning the show but couldn’t get through . The point I would have made to him is that a call for decency is fine . But to live a decent life ( and I have personal experience of this ) you have to start with the Truth .
The Big Lie about the true nature of TRFC , its Liquidation and subsequent events, has to be exposed . Only then can we talk about restoring decency to Scottish Football .

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bfbpuzzledPosted on9:42 am - Sep 13, 2016


Tayred I would respectfully submit that the West of Scotland issue is not to do with religion in any meaningful sense although it might have done in the past. The present issue is related to perceptions of race difference. The Irish immigration in the last and 19th centuries together with nativist reactions to it gave rise to the racist element at the root of the current divisions.
The word Hun has been decried as sectarian. Over the course of history each side has aimed it at the other. The derivation of it for use against TRFC supporters is opaque I believe. Perhaps it is to do with the German roots of the Queen I do not know. The only way that would be sectarian would regarding her Anglicanism which would be a very convoluted line of thought indeed.
A wise Polsh man once said in Glasgow the “we are all pilgrims and must walk the road together” but he was a Goalkeeper.

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wottpiPosted on9:58 am - Sep 13, 2016


TAYRED
SEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 09:15

Well said sir. Strict Liability surely has to be worth a try because at present nowt is happening.

Keith Jackson, of all folk, called it right last night on Sportsound when he said there appears to be an element within the Celtic and Rangers fans who are trying to out do each other in how far they can go.

Given that there is little or no punishment some folks appear to be willing to take a chance on overstepping the mark being that there will be no repercussions.
(I am sure the clubs will do what they can re identifying and banning but that is after the fact)

The thought of closed doors and being deducted 3 points, or more, would have a far greater effect on the silent majority stepping in and saying enough is enough and nipping things in the bud before they even get started.

Yes we all know there are troublesome fans at all clubs, we know that there can be skirmishes outside and away from grounds but what goes on directly inside the stadium is under the control of the clubs and the footballing authorities. 

If some other clubs get caught up with the odd punishment then so be it. Hard cheese!!

However, to my mind, the use of banners and other such tools to goad and provoke is generally a Celtic & T’Rangers issue.

Don’t get me wrong I chuckled at the Four Horsemen display but are we really seeing the same type of animosity at other Scottish games. I can’t recall seeing any  flags or banners (offensive or not) at any of the Hearts games I have attended over the last few years. Yes Aberdeen fans bring their own inflatable sheep with them to ‘own and defuse’ that situation but other than that- nothing.

That weekend fixture is the one everyone is pinning their hopes on for TV money sponsorship etc and all we have the day after, ONCE AGAIN, is talking about pure and utter shit that has nothing to do with football.

Time to grow up FFS.

PS I like many thought, at first, the images of the hanging dolls were from the GB section. I apologies for my error. It would appears that there are a few irresponsible ‘fans’ dotted around Celtic Park.
As Jackson again correctly stated, the lack of control and punishment over certain groups can have the effect on emboldening the hard of thinking elsewhere in a ground.

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tayred

tayredPosted on10:33 am - Sep 13, 2016


BFBPUZZLEDSEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 09:42 
Tayred I would respectfully submit that the West of Scotland issue is not to do with religion in any meaningful sense although it might have done in the past.
=========================
That it may or may not be about religion is pretty irrelevant. But to those including myself from outside this particular bubble, religion is what it is largely perceived as being about. The old “what school did you go to?” question asked of folks in Glasgow – you call it race difference, to me at the time it seemed purely about whether I was a Proddie or a Tim. I found it then, as I do now, pathetic.

Be it religion, ethnicity, sex, heightist, baldist, digestive/rich tea, or whether you prefer Paul McCartney or John Lennon – the source of it isn’t what is important. That everyone finally stands up and admits it has to be removed from the Scottish game and Scottish society as a whole is what is important.

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on11:20 am - Sep 13, 2016


RYANGOSLING

SEPTEMBER 10, 2016 at 17:57     

Comments that the Rangers support will die off due to lack of success are nothing more than wishful thinking in my view. I don’t know a Rangers fan who thought we’d win the league this year, or any year soon, and I don’t know anyone surprised at today’s result. Celtic are a long way ahead of us and I think it is widely recognised. 

The only way to catch up will be to support the team, by buying tickets, and I think enough people know that to keep on doing it. It might die down after a few years if no progress is made, but it won’t happen immediately. I know people refer back to low crowds at Ibrox during lean years of the 80s, but that was a long time ago and this is a very different world. As much as there are morons out there who support Rangers and expect an immediate return to glory, I sincerely think that the majority are a lot more realistic. They’re just not as loud. 
———————————————–

The statements from Club1872 & TRFC yesterday have made it quite clear what the plan is for supporter retention in the face of poor results.

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DunderheidPosted on11:22 am - Sep 13, 2016


I have no firm evidence or inside knowledge on which to base my strong feeling that the prominence given last night by both BBC Scotland and STV to the faux outrage of ‘Rangers’ fans (later supported by a sadly typical, tormented statement from The Rangers) was the work of Level 5, or a crony outfit.
 
Whatever the source of the astonishing coverage (or the sympathies of those willing to provide air time), I find it deliciously ironic that it merely serves as a squirrel for the present-day followers of The Rangers.
 
After only 5 league fixtures, it must now be plain to any sane observer that the team currently playing at Ibrox is a paper tiger of an outfit, fanned (if you’ll pardon the pun) by an idiotic, fawning media pack.
 
The upshot, of course, is that attention is being diverted away from the astonishing paucity of talent now on display at Ibrox.
 
I give it maybe 3 or 4 more games before the SMSM turns on Mark Warburton and has him hung out to dry; less than that, if his side struggle at home against an on-form QoS in the League Cup, hot on the heels of this weekend’s 3rd-4th tussle with Ross County.
 
We’ll see.
 

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PaoloDeCanioPosted on11:42 am - Sep 13, 2016


Totally agree with Dunderheid – the leeway is the next two games (home to Staggies and QoS) then it gets tough with away games involving Aberdeen, Hearts and Inverness.
Rangers home form has been erratic, and away form has been nothing short of atrocious. Without Level 5, hordes of squirrels and headline grabbing Celtic fans attempting to outdo them, this would be highlighted for all to see.

Last 12 league games (15/16 Championship against plumbers and electricians, 16/17 Premiership thus far):
– Only 3 wins in 12 games – all 3 by a single goal
– Away league form – Played 8 W1 D3 L4
– Away goal difference; Scored 13, Conceded 19 = -6
– Defeats to Falkirk, Hibs, Livingston, Celtic
– Draws with Raith, Alloa, St Mirren, Hamilton, Kilmarnock
– NO CLEAN SHEETS in last 12

LOSS 10-Sep-16 Scot Premiership Celtic 5 1 Rangers A
DRAW 26-Aug-16 Scot Premiership Kilmarnock 1 1 Rangers A
WIN 20-Aug-16 Scot Premiership Rangers 2 1 Motherwell H
WIN 13-Aug-16 Scot Premiership Dundee 1 2 Rangers A
DRAW 06-Aug-16 Scot Premiership Rangers 1 1 Hamilton H
DRAW 01-May-16 Championship St Mirren 2 2 Rangers A
LOSS 26-Apr-16 Championship Livingston 1 0 Rangers A
DRAW 23-Apr-16 Championship Rangers 1 1 Alloa H
LOSS 20-Apr-16 Championship Hibernian 3 2 Rangers A
DRAW 02-Apr-16 Championship Raith Rovers 3 3 Rangers A
WIN 26-Mar-16 Championship Rangers 4 3 Queen of the South H
LOSS 18-Mar-16 Championship Falkirk 3 2 Rangers A
 

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on12:01 pm - Sep 13, 2016


BFBPUZZLED
SEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 09:42 

A wise Polish man once said in Glasgow that “we are all pilgrims and must walk the road together” but he was a Goalkeeper.

=============================================

Łukasz Załuska, one of the great thinkers of our time. 

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shug

shugPosted on12:23 pm - Sep 13, 2016


HIGHLANDERSEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 08:02       50 Votes 
SHUGSEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 07:55there are too many of the wrong kind of fan at every club who would happily take the hit by posing as an other clubs supporters if it would benefit their club.Shug, apart from Chelsea fans rioting in Manchester, do you have any anecdotal evidence of this?

Highlander sorry for the reply to that it appears I didn’t read your question properly as I was in a hurry to get out the door to pick up my boy I apologise to all if I caused any offence my reply was in regards all clubs having fans that we would rather were not associated with the club again i can only apologise for my poor reading of the question.16

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bfbpuzzledPosted on12:29 pm - Sep 13, 2016


Tayred
I wonder how many of the offenders know anything about religion in theory or practice beyond what are now folk memories.  There may be some words used which are ostensibly religious but are not in my view based on religious conviction.
The roots of the divide are explicitly racist and indeed eugenicist however the present actions in particular of the TRFC club and followers are much more likely to be a result of the wrong headed sense of the punishments they believe to have been unjustly visited upon their club by the rest of Scottish footballi.
This is the early stage of payback promised to anyone they meet this season. In that kind of febrile atmosphere, the announcements of TRFC are thoroughly disreputable to the point of being incendiary. One would almost believe that they wanted attention to be diverted from something else.
Difference is a good thing – folk have the right to be wrong after all…

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bfbpuzzledPosted on12:36 pm - Sep 13, 2016


Homunculus
there are many Polish personalist philosophers included in the goalkeeping school 

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tayred

tayredPosted on12:50 pm - Sep 13, 2016


BFBPUZZLED, I agree. As I wrote last week, I wonder how many of these idiots have actually set foot inside a church or have any proper understanding of what these songs they are singing are really about. You are right then to say this isn’t about religion per se, but it very much still has its foundations in religion. Its not just TRFC here – lets not kid ourselves it is just a football issue. Any city that allows itself to be disrupted the way Glasgow is by Orange walks etc is not a healthy one in my book. Its “part of our history, our culture” they’ll say – so were many things that have been rightly removed from our society. They tried it in Aberdeen a few years back, bus loads of Orangemen taken up from Glasgow. The good people of Aberdeen, rightly disgusted with it, turned up in droves to turn their backs on them. A few scallywags even marching behind them blowing kazoos and still failing to look any more ridiculous than the gallus wee men in their dinky wee sashes. Scottish football has to rid itself of this nonsense, but Scottish society has to rid itself of it as well. Its offensive, completely irrelevant to a modern society and yet somehow accepted, you daren’t speak out about it or else….

The way TRFC are fanning the flames of this is downright outrageous, and while Doncaster & Regan may claim to be largely oblivious to the dangers in the situation they have allowed, those in the boardroom of TRFC (whichever boardroom that is) are fully aware of what they are in charge of here and the risks they are taking. Yet nobody is shouting them down, they just get away with it time after time after time. If it continues like this it will explode, and it will lead to some poor bugger getting badly hurt. 

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NTDEALPosted on3:46 pm - Sep 13, 2016


Dunderheid@11.22
Tayred@12.50
Both excellent posts,could’nt agree more.
None of this has anything to do with religion,specifically catholic/protestant,as the behaviour described is not what is regarded as,in any way, Christian behaviour.(as far as I am aware)
The blow up dolls and the h#n referenced banners are a disgrace,we’re all agreed on that.BUT,it reflects the actions of,at best,a handful of 52-53k celtic supporters in attendance.This has been so blown out of all proportion by the SMSM,to the extent that we even have posters on here advocating via “strict liability”point docking,supporters ban etc etc,really? for this?
If celtic were,for example to be docked 3 points for this with their next game behind closed doors,what could possibly be the “liability”for both clubs in this years cup final?Banned from the scottish cup for X amount of years?What if a supporter attacks a manager on the touchline?Relegation?
The issues highlighted could have been prevented,by cameras picking up the dolls/banners/whatever when they are being put out or unfurled,to start with,even,possibly before the game.Hopefully celtic will track down these idiots and deal with them with a life ban.
To go back to Dunderheid,a few celtic fans have given TRFC a massive squirrel,which they are milking(for want of a better phrase!)as much as they can,with the help of friends in the media(I am still amazed how this was reported on BBC Scotland last night)all to divert attention from (a)the result(b)their fans own behaviour,which is not the point of this post,so will leave well alone.(c)the perilous state of their own club and (d)Champions league/Barca etc.
I think we need a wee bit of perspective here. 

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SmugasPosted on3:59 pm - Sep 13, 2016


We do.  But I’d add to your list the question why stewards thought the better of dealing with the two dolls, not to mention full police intervention.  Tell you what I’ll roll out an ‘H’ banner at Pittodrie in two weeks time (Tayred can hold the other end 04) and lets see how long its left in situ.

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tayred

tayredPosted on4:12 pm - Sep 13, 2016


Smugas (or “Snugs” as my autocorrect rather cutely changed your name to!) you couldn’t pay me to be at that game!! You are right though, not a chance in hell that the Pittodrie stewards would let that sort of banner exit for long. I doubt you would get to see the end of the second letter before you get jumped upon. Strangely when the TRFC hoardes start belting out their beloved ditties I doubt that will be met with such vigour.

Pittodrie stewarding is a joy to behold, apparently two Inverness fans got chucked out for overly enthusiastic celebration of their goal on Saturday, and yet dare complain about a thousand odd fans singing offensive songs relating to lets say the pope, you just get told to sit down and stop complaining (and not often very pleasantly told that either).

NTDeal – yes those dolls etc could have been dealt with swiftly. But they weren’t. Is the club therefore entirely innocent? Could they have done more? Probably yes. Therefore, strict liability may have led to swifter action? I don’t think strict liability is perfect, I’m not convinced its the answer, but nobody is coming up with any other suggestions, nothing else has worked until now, and frankly something dramatic has to be done and done soon.

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SmugasPosted on4:25 pm - Sep 13, 2016


you couldn’t pay me to be at that game!!

It’ll need to be a helluva long banner then! 07

Sorry, my point (made badly as always) was simply that when NTDeal was asking for a bit of perspective I was trying to highlight that the perspective of 95% of the senior clubs in Scotland could just as easily be perceived to be, as the young uns say, WTF! Or is tacit acceptance of why that game is considered different all part and parcel of our receiving our season end TV cheque? 

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on4:28 pm - Sep 13, 2016


NTDEALSEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 15:46 
   “I think we need a wee bit of perspective here.”
  ————————————————————————–
  Exactly ! 04   
   Not making excuses for thoughtless or downright malicious displays, but nobody knows yet how Celtic will deal with the perps if, (CFC have had previous successes), and when identified. 
    Likewise, if Sevco , or plod, identify any perps in the toilets, what action they will take. 
   Give the SFA more power?……That;s just about the craziest thing ! 11  
Not until we have an SFA that can be trusted with it please.  
Clubs face the fines or damages. If they don’t deal with it,  more mugs them.

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easyJamboPosted on4:34 pm - Sep 13, 2016


An interesting article has appeared on he “FootballTaxHavens” blog which attempts to debunk the Offshore Game and Resolution 12 claims, quoting tweets from Auldheid and SFM among others, and suggesting bias against Rangers in their investigations and reports.

I have a suspicion that a former poster here may have provided some of the input.

https://footballtaxhavens.wordpress.com/2016/09/13/alex-cobhamrichard-murphy-of-the-offshore-gametjn-bias-against-rangers-from-2010-attraction-to-rangers-stolen-documents/

The blog is flawed in a number of ways, most notably linking Title Stripping to Resolution 12.

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tayred

tayredPosted on4:35 pm - Sep 13, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIALSEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 16:28
NTDEALSEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 15:46    “I think we need a wee bit of perspective here.”  ————————————————————————–  Exactly !        Not making excuses for thoughtless or downright malicious displays, but nobody knows yet how Celtic will deal with the perps if, (CFC have had previous successes), and when identified.     Likewise, if Sevco , or plod, identify any perps in the toilets, what action they will take.    Give the SFA more power?……That;s just about the craziest thing !    Not until we have an SFA that can be trusted with it please.  Clubs face the fines or damages. If they don’t deal with it,  more mugs them.

——————————————————–
Some might argue the clubs (and the SFA) have had decades to deal with it. They have failed, in fact one club appears to be embracing it as a fund raising campaign. So where do we go next?

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on4:55 pm - Sep 13, 2016


So, the relatively inexperienced TRFC manager is now under real, sustained pressure for the first time at Ibrox.
He could have responded to his team’s weekend humping in a respectful, dignified manner – and to set a good example for the bears.
But the SMSM is reporting that Warburton said;

“…but I thought ‘no, I will read the papers’, and you see some of the poisonous, mischievous dialogue that is written, and that just burns in your memory and that is something we will use…
we will make sure the people who are writing what they are writing right now come to eat those words…”
Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/mark-warburton-we-ll-make-rangers-critics-eat-poisonous-words-1-4228586
=======================
Silly Billy…  

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on5:02 pm - Sep 13, 2016


EASYJAMBO

SEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 16:34      

An interesting article has appeared on he “FootballTaxHavens” blog which attempts to debunk the Offshore Game and Resolution 12 claims, quoting tweets from Auldheid and SFM among others, and suggesting bias against Rangers in their investigations and reports.
————————————–

Isn’t the author affiliated to (or the same person as) PZJ, the State Aid wunderkind?  

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on5:22 pm - Sep 13, 2016


TAYREDSEPTEMBER 13, 2016 at 16:35
     “Some might argue the clubs (and the SFA) have had decades to deal with it. They have failed, ”
    ————————————————————————————————————————
   I wouldn’t particularly argue with that view-point, but whether it has “failed”, or even have been concluded yet, may be premature. 
    I think we all know it will be a long slow process of change, and must be eradicated in a sphere much broader than the confines of a stadium, but a club should not be allowed to regress the previous progress, by encouraging a disruptive rallying flag….No matter how much financial assistance it craves.
    The SFA SHOULD immediately gag Sevco, for their own good as much as anybody else’s. 
   No more Sevco statements without prior approval of the SFA. ..Draconian, mebbe, but lets see where it takes us.
Oops….I just realised I have given the SFA more power. lol. 
   I can’t speak for Ibrox, but decade upon decade has brought change to Celtic Park. All for the better.
 To think that what Celtic and Rangers(I.L.) were doing, (and doing quite well !) is being torn off-track, by a new club that thinks it’s an “onerous” contract is the truly shameful part.
   It is not a contract UP for negotiating !…Shape up or ship out. 
   If the SFA want to do that I’m fine with it. 19
        

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on5:33 pm - Sep 13, 2016


The Clumpany’s latest piece is the funniest yet…IMO.

Well done that man !  😉

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jimboPosted on5:34 pm - Sep 13, 2016


Well the clock is ticking down until a wee Scottish team give the Spanish giants a right good 2-1 thumping.  Dembele 1  Sinclair 1  Wee Messi 1.  I can’t wait. 

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paddy malarkey

paddy malarkeyPosted on6:45 pm - Sep 13, 2016


What happens to Davie Weir ? Is there an automatic touchline ban or does it go to the compliance officer ?

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on7:20 pm - Sep 13, 2016


ParadisebhoySeptember 13, 2016 at 09:28     he Big Lie about the true nature of TRFC , its Liquidation and subsequent events, has to be exposed . Only then can we talk about restoring decency to Scottish Football
——————————————————————-
Since 2012  the fans of the new club have been adamant that everyone hates them (even got a song about it) and that has fueled their anger/resentment and hatred against all clubs even more. This was always going to happen and this is why I never missed these fans and the clubs they support and never wanted to play them again.  The press in the past has never covered the truth concerning the  liquidation of the club (apart from one day) and by doing so has added to why we are where we are. Hypocrites are what the smsm are and they have never openly criticised any manager of the Ibrox club in the past. If this club continues playing like they have over the past 5 games then the press will have to criticise the manager and the team, can you see the fans of the club accepting this?  This is only going to get worse.

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FinlochPosted on9:47 pm - Sep 13, 2016


Many of us remember 1967 when Celtic and Rangers could have won European trophies.
(Almost two out of three for Scotland)
We all know Rangers and Aberdeen subsequently won minor European titles and Dundee Utd were robbed by Roma in the big one and unlucky against Gothenburg too.
Tonight is an eye opener on what being a feeder league in a third or fourth rate system is all about.
European football is all about the top four leagues and having the money.
We in Scotland are so far off the pace it is embarrassing for us.
More to the point European football is like fishing tackle.
It is only as strong as its weakest links.
I’m not a Celtic fan but I’m embarrassed and hurting.

The wee countries only have a short window to do something about this all and I don’t think they will.

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Bill1903

Bill1903Posted on10:02 pm - Sep 13, 2016


Oh dear a proper hammering
i hope Jimbo is ok 14

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goosygoosyPosted on10:04 pm - Sep 13, 2016


Oh Dear
After the Barca match perhaps Scott Brown ought to rethink his Men against Boys comment at the weekend
More like 
Boys against Toddlers

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shug

shugPosted on10:26 pm - Sep 13, 2016


7 down 28 to go 

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tayred

tayredPosted on8:35 am - Sep 14, 2016


You know what struck me after hearing the result from last night (I had completely forgotten the match was even on, such is my interest in the “Champions League”)? Celtic are in a dangerous place here.

With all those CL funds, and their existing wealth based on normal income, they are going to outstrip the rest of the SPFL with ease. Indeed results would suggest they are already pretty much there. But in Europe they (and Scottish football itself) will fall way beyond what is required to realistically compete. Ok, reel back a bit from the knee jerk – it was Barca, and hopefully Celtic will fair much better in the remaining matches (they are going to have to!).

But the bottom line is how close are they to a situation where they are simply too big for the competition in Scotland, too small for the competition in Europe – then whats in it for the fans?

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jimboPosted on8:46 am - Sep 14, 2016


I have now completely, utterly fell out with wee Messi.  I loved that man.  No more.  There was no need for that you wee scoundrel.  I was even going to ask him to play his final season at CP.  Well if that is how you treat your friends!  I hope he is reading this, cause I Am well hurt.07

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wottpiPosted on8:59 am - Sep 14, 2016


Ouch that’s was a sore one for the Hoops.
Thought an easy win for Bacra but not that easy. Their four big guns were on top form.
Hard to see many teams on the planet living with that but at the same time it is a lesson to all what needs to be done to even get half as good.

Before the game I told the boys team I was helping coach that Barca would easily beat Celtic and it would all be down to decent passing and good movement, and positioning off the ball.
Glad to have something to prove to them I know what I am talking about and that’s why the little buggers need to pay attention to the basics when doing their drills!!

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wottpiPosted on9:29 am - Sep 14, 2016


 From Phil Mac twitter feed
Brian McNally ‏@McNallyMirror 10h10 hours agoWhat #Celtic got in Barca was a bigger reality check than expected.But if it makes the board invest more in the squad it’s no bad thing
——————————————————————————-
Oh Dear!! Clearly the twitter word limit didn’t allow the words “in a sustainable manner” to get into that wish otherwise I would have thought it was Minty Moonbeams time.  

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Bill1903

Bill1903Posted on9:43 am - Sep 14, 2016


All Celtic need is to invest enough to guarantee winning our league and CL group stage qualification.
Anything above that is madness as they’ll never compete with the big guns financially.

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Tartanwulver

TartanwulverPosted on9:48 am - Sep 14, 2016


The Rangers drubbed various teams of assorted professionals / semi-pros / amateurs on their rise through the divisions. But that was only to be expected as their wages were vastly higher than their opponents.

Celtic hammered the Rangers, but that was only to be expected as their wages were vastly higher than their opponents.
 
Barcelona stuffed Celtic, but that was only to be expected as their wages were vastly higher than their opponents.

Football has always been dominated by big teams (usually big city teams able to attract higher attendances and hence matchday receipts), but now the the world game is well on the way to ossifying into structures based purely on financial categories, rather than competitiveness. The opposite of the US model of drafts and the sharing of resources to constantly regenerate competition, it is only a matter of time before enough people get fed up watching the same fare over and over again. A 7-0 might once have been an astonishing result, these days you just look at the two teams, check their categories, and you’d probably already factored in about 5 of those goals as the potential result anyway.

My generation was raised on football being in the bloodstream, a fixed number of big teams but rough round the edges in terms of the appearance of Ferguson’s Aberdeen, McLean’s Dundee United, Kendall’s Everton, Clough’s Forest, and so on. But we are witnessing the death of football, at least until it regenerates itself, not as yet another bigger (world? interplanetary?) league, but ones that are based on competitiveness.

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nawlitePosted on10:58 am - Sep 14, 2016


TW, I think you’re right, but I’m coming round to thinking that it should happen sooner rather than later.

UEFA are terrified that the big leagues/clubs will break away and run their own  tournaments and as a result keep making more and more concessions to those big clubs in how UEFA competitions are set up to guarantee those big clubs more money e.g. the league format itself rather than knockout as in the old EC; the distribution being based on points won, so that the wealthy clubs with the best squads keep getting more money; the number of clubs from the leagues with the big TV audiences etc etc.

Of course, the reason for this is that UEFA want a share of the pot that those big clubs generate from TV, sponsorship etc.

I’m now at the stage where I think UEFA should let those big 4 leagues/teams head off and set up their own closed shop competition. If they want a G-16 European league, let them do it and leave the rest of the clubs with UEFA. From last season, let’s say the following clubs set up their own league with the blessing of UEFA and their national associations…
ManU; ManC; Chelsea; Arsenal
Barca; Real; Atletico; Villareal
Bayern; Dortmund; Leverkusen; BMG
PSG; Lyon; Monaco; Nice
A 16-team league playing home and away with a cup tourney thrown in.

This leaves all those other clubs, from Celtic to Spurs, Benfica to Basel, to take part in a UEFA-run Champions league perhaps even run as a true CL and perhaps even as a knockout tournament to allow the odd upset. Europa league, too, could continue as the secondary competition and tbh probably wouldn’t see much difference in ther level of teams involved. It would also allow the likes of Seville, Liverpool etc a chance to win their domestic league without the big beasts in among them.

I honestly believe that such a UEFA competition(s) would soon start to generate good income. I honestly believe too that the Big Boys league would stagnate and lose the interest of fans and, therefore, TV/sponsorship money – Leverkusen v Monaco again?!?!

If the replacement UEFA CL did start to make serious money, I’d like to see the national distribution fixed so that one regular qualifier (if that happened) didn’t impact competitiveness too much in their own league.

Pipe dream, I know, and I’m sure it could be tweaked before being proposed, but I just want to see a change to how things are before it becomes unsaveable.

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tony

tonyPosted on11:01 am - Sep 14, 2016


NAWLITE
they are carving it up as we speak  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3787806/Europe-s-elite-shafting-poor-enjoy-Leicester-City-can.html

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bordersdonPosted on11:12 am - Sep 14, 2016


nawliteSeptember 14, 2016 at 10:58
Pipe dream, I know, and I’m sure it could be tweaked before being proposed, but I just want to see a change to how things are before it becomes unsaveable.
=============================================
makes sense nawlite so will likely never happen. But would it not just start the whole thing over again meaning “second big boys” dominating and looking for more and more? Money rules!
ps. think the Italians will want a bit of the big boy’s action!

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SmugasPosted on11:35 am - Sep 14, 2016


No particular issue with that Nawlite and I think we all agree that’s exactly where its headed at the moment.

To return to one of my bug bears I notice you assume that the clubs you mention go off to the golden pavements of the Cant Believe they’re not Champions League and simultaneously exit their existing domestic concerns.  Do you think that they would do that by choice or because their respective FA’s (with a jilted UEFA’s backing of course) forced them to?  Were I Abramovich et al I would surely try to keep a foot in both camps, no?  But assuming such an exit was enforced would you not then expect informal feeder club arrangements to spring up whereby, say, Fulham become Chelsea’s feeder club fundamentally to maintain Chelsea’s player pool thus giving you precisely the distortion that you are (correctly) trying to avoid.

I don’t have the answer I’m just trying to anticipate the problems before they happen.  

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SmugasPosted on11:41 am - Sep 14, 2016


Sorry missed edit cut-off

edit: per Bordersdon’s point.  Its OK if your second tier “big boys” (lets take spurs to continue my example) want to go toe to toe with a Chesea inspired and back door funded Fulham.  That gives you a competitive ‘league’.  But what if an already strong Spurs just take on the feeder club role on top?  That gives them the players (albeit temporarily) and crucially starves the opposition of the players, the exposure (since a ‘normal’ Fulham will win as much as they do now) and the means to do anything about it.  And that scenario just seems so horribly familiar to me…

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easyJamboPosted on11:41 am - Sep 14, 2016


nawlite  September 14, 2016 at 10:58
——————————–
I think Juventus, Inter, AC Milan and Roma might have a legitimate complaint about Italian sides being excluded from your proposal.  

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nawlitePosted on11:55 am - Sep 14, 2016


Okay, so with Serie A, a 20-team league then! Lol. Not sure why I missed them out!!
I agree with all the other relevant points. My main issue was just to get across that I believe it’s time for UEFA to call their bluff and say ‘Go ahead and sell your own league – we’ll still make enough money to be happy.’ 
Just wanted to back that up with some supporting thoughts.

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nawlitePosted on12:45 pm - Sep 14, 2016


Smugas, I don’t see why the ‘elite’ clubs would need a feeder club tbh. They could just do what they do now (Chelsea being the prime example) and just buy who they fancy then loan them out to other clubs for a season at a time while they develop from prospects to viable players.
That could be controlled by the national leagues having a rule on the maximum number of loan players from the ‘elite league’ allowed by each national league team. That could curtail the chances of one club becoming overly successful on the strength of such loans. 

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PortbhoyPosted on12:45 pm - Sep 14, 2016


Barcelona are world class.
… It may worth noting the non-gulf in Scottish football, .. 21

https://i.imgflip.com/1akphm.jpg

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SmugasPosted on1:35 pm - Sep 14, 2016


Nawlite,
Exactly.  You’re expecting the Domestic League to act in a capacity to protect the interests of the ‘freed’ league, not engage in some reconciliation exercise with the “Bog Boys” who have just told them to do one. 

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paddy malarkey

paddy malarkeyPosted on2:15 pm - Sep 14, 2016


I get the feeling that more radical changes are afoot, especially with the money available to clubs in China and India . The next EPL contract will be less than the current and the wages available in the emergent markets will tempt the world’s best players there . That will be a driving force for the elite European teams to demand more money from the available pot in order that they can compete, further damaging the prospects of the others . There will need to be an “elite ” Euro league based on franchises , leaving the domestic leagues to go back to playing fitba’ for the love of the game . We won’t be invited and need not apply .Or so I think .

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on2:25 pm - Sep 14, 2016


Finloch

A lurker these days, I get my fix from the local Junior Football. The football maybe agricultural, but the air is a lot cleaner.

 A good post, and a timely reminder of why this site came into being.

Back in the RTC days a few people made the point that none of this could have happened without the active support & participation of the various board members at Hampden.

The apologists met this, to me, obvious point, by claiming that clubs like Celtic were required to keep a dignified silence lest people be stabbed.

That claim was, of course,
Nonsense then,
Nonsense now,
Nonsense forever.

These days the line has shifted to – clubs had to bow to commercial realities. Which, while still nonsense,  is at least not the despicable nonsense of the earlier excuse. Creating and maintaining an unhealthy culture in any organisation, is to create the conditions that will breed corruption and law breaking. If May can see the light and get rid of HSBC’s Rhona Fairhead from the BBC Trust, then not all hope is lost. 

People rightly condemn Doncaster and Regan, but, their guilt is actually less than that of  the men like Eric Riley and Peter Lawwell who continue to employ them. Mr Riley has left the stage for health reasons, and on a personal level I wish him well. Mr Lawwell and most of the other guilty men retain their positions at Hampden. While they remain in post, there can be no improvement.

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Big PinkPosted on3:14 pm - Sep 14, 2016


Scapa,

Good to hear from you again. Agree on all your points although I would add that I’m not so sure the new excuse is genuine given that it has only been arrived at after four years of careful deliberation 🙂

And now that we are also having our annual, “why are we so pish!” debate it is also worth noting that these things are not unconnected.

Budgetary gaps between Scottish clubs and those of English, Spanish and Italians are significant, but the levels of under-performance by Scottish clubs is not commensurate with the budgetary advantage many of our clubs hold over their Scandinavian and Eastern European counterparts.

In Scotland we have failed fundamentally to provide a framework where genuine domestic competition can take place.

That failure is a function of the fruitless European ambitions of our top clubs, and their unfeasible, deluded plans to play their football in a bigger TV area.

There is no will to “fix” Scottish football. Instead there is a lot of energy expended pandering to those delusions of grandeur, and whilst our top clubs have their attention longingly fixed elsewhere through green-eyed mist, the infrastructure of our game is being fatally undermined.

You can’t fix a crumbling multi-storey block by reinforcing the top half a dozen floors, but if you are deluded enough, you might try, and try again.

The trouble is that as of right now, the majority of fans of those top clubs (who contribute more ££s per unit population to football than anywhere else on the planet) subscribe to the same flat-earth nonsense as the authorities on whose watch our national team has slipped to 51st in world rankings, and our national league plummeted to 23rd out of 54 in Europe.

That is why in my view, our message has to go beyond the narrow focus of the crimes of David Murray and RFC. The people who run the game are in it for personal short term gain. I think that is also true of those in England, Spain and Italy, but we have no huge TV audience potential to feed the greed of those in charge here. When they do fleecing, it is directly from the lining of fan pockets, and not TV budgets.

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on3:22 pm - Sep 14, 2016


Big Pink

Agree with all of that. However, unless and until all those currently in position at Hampden are cleared out on the proverbial rail, there is absolutely no chance of the root and branch reform that is so desperately needed.

These guys are totally committed to the status quo, they neither see, nor do they want to even consider, any alternatives. The status quo serves their interests very nicely. Every now and again, to keep the plebes happy, they will feed them fairy tales about Super Leagues or playing in England, while in the real world nothing will change.

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