History, Neighbours and Made Up News

ByFinloch

History, Neighbours and Made Up News

Or, a story of how and why Mr Lawwell consigned resolution 12 to the deepest grass;
by Finloch


“It’s about history and being neighbours”, young Elisabeth said to her mum.

And it has to be done for tomorrow, Elisabeth said.

“I’m supposed to ask in an in-person interview about what life was like where an older neighbour grew up and what was life like when the neighbour was my age.

It’s not my fault that we’re new here and haven’t spoken to our old, next door neighbour yet and don’t even know his name.

“I’ve an idea her mother said, why don’t you make it up.

Pretend you’re asking him questions and then write down the answers you think he’d give”.

“It’s supposed to be true”, Elisabeth said. “It’s for News”.

“They’ll never know”, her mother said. “Just make it up.

The real news is always made up anyway”.

 

publicLibraryI was lucky enough to catch Ali Smith at the Edinburgh Book Festival.

I was part of a very diverse audience and unusually for this kind of event nobody in the sold-out Charlotte Square tent had a Scooby about what she was going to share with us.

Most would have been expecting a reading or two from her recent short story collection, Public Library, about the cynical, thoughtless and almost silent and unpublicised demise of Libraries up and down our land.

Our libraries.

Our land.

Ali is always value for money though and was amazing, reading from her as yet unpublished “Autumn” book, the first she said of a four-book series.

As I listened to her, I was also thinking and juggling around at the back of my mind about what I was going to write for this blog, having been asked for my thoughts, as a non-involved, non-Celtic supporter, on how I see the Resolution 12 situation.

 

Well Ali’s words stung like a bee and proved quite inspirational. The wisdom and clarity in her new books is highly relevant to all of us who care about Scottish Football and Resolution 12 including Mr Lawwell, Mr Doncaster, Mr Regan, Mr Petrie and us too – the real stakeholders.

 

Ali also shared with us a Bernard Maclaverty insight from when he once visited a school as part of (I think) a Scottish creative writing initiative and in the course of his talk asked some youngsters,

“What is fiction” ?

Someone put their hand up and said “Please Sir, it’s made up truth”.

 

Near the end Ali also got to talking about post Brexit Britain and used the chaos to ask the bigger question.

“Why do we never seem to have real debates about anything and why in any “debate” we might see or read that there never seems to be room for to-ing and fro-ing on points because everyone seems to have already made their minds up and just wants to maintain their status quos, achieve their own personal agendas or to steamroller us all to their point of view”.

 

“People in power seem to be genuinely scared of honest debates”, she said.

She asked how without more real discussions and insightful and open minded debates can any of us (and the debaters themselves too) learn because without that we will just get more of what we’ve had.

And that’s not good enough.

 

So thanks Ali I’m going to combine these three things from your hour along with two personal career experiences and review Mr Lawwell and his company’s reaction to the bona fide Resolution 12 raised by some of his shareholders a few years ago.

(My career experiences were as the head of a small, and treated as unimportant, company that was part of a worldwide group of companies run (badly) out of the US; and my time as head of a trade association that had two very dominant and troublesome members).

 

My Five Insights to review Resolution 12 are.

  1. Some people think  “made up news is fine” and feed us all with it all the time.
  2. Don’t expect real discussions or debates about anything in your club. No two way dialogues, except from those about money once a year.
  3. “Made up Truths” become gospel not to be challenged.
  4. The people running the club know they are smarter and more important than any of their minority or remote stakeholders.
  5. All decisions that really matter in football or indeed in any business are pre-agreed and never discussed in the open.

So now to what I think of Resolution 12.

My starting point is to say this. It is wrong to see or to discuss Mr Lawwell and Resolution 12 as being about the awarding of a license – or the boardroom processes since The Requisitioners first raised it.

Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.

In the late Murray days at Ibrox and in the early Whyte ownership period there had been rumours, and I’m certain deep and meaningful business discussions between the heads of the SFA and SPL and their key committee members.

You can be sure that the SFA, SPL, Celtic and others were all watching the post Murray Rangers situation closely, and the new regime at Ibrox and related financial stuff would have been the talk of the exclusive football steamies.

Despite what some Celtic fans believe, the reality has always been that while Rangers may have dominated (just) all things SFA and SPL, nothing was ever done without the knowledge of and input from the green side of the Old Firm business model.

Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.

Scotland’s unique, idiosyncratic, religio-political old firm business model was not just about driving the individual Glasgow teams to their leviathan duopoly in Scottish football. We all knew (because we were told so) that it was also the commercial bedrock of the business that is Scottish Football.

And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.

Put simply, Regan who was quite new, was convinced at the time – and still is absolutely certain – that the SFA and Scottish Football needed a dominant Celtic and Rangers, and he also personally needed and needs the support of their CEO’s.

Doncaster too was convinced that the SPL needed Celtic and Rangers arch rivalry with all it entails, delivering TV monies and maximizing his bonuses. He too also personally required and requires the support of the Old Firm CEO’s.

Lawwell the astute numbers man, under a constant watchful eye from Dublin, needed Rangers to ensure his business plan did not develop un-fillable black holes.

And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.

Importantly, Peter was also one of a small influential football group who effectively controlled the actions of Regan and Doncaster. Nothing strategic would ever have been done by either of them without his involvement and input. That doesn’t mean he necessarily knew all the detail about  Craig’s UEFA license shenanigans but he’d have had his suspicions.

And you know something, – at a squeeze I think he and Desmond might have thought keeping a Rangers team alive (for its future dependable revenue streams) was maybe even worth one season’s lost Champions League status.

There is no doubt in my mind that in 2011 Peter and the Celtic Board were worried but supportive of and committed to keeping the Rangers company alive.

Looking back I don’t know when Lawwell and Desmond actually discovered de facto that Rangers should not have been awarded the license.

Was it before it was awarded?

Was it after by which time it was too late anyway?

Those would be two good questions to ask them.

I’d suggest that by the time they knew for sure it was too late, but I could be wrong.

Anyway history shows that pretty quickly after McCoist failed in Europe, Lawwell committed his club to the complex and complicated secret Five-Way Agreement and all it entailed.

Celtic were senior signed-up members of the attempt to help protect and leverage the future blue revenue streams into the SPL then the SPL 2 then the bottom level.

It was all about the blue pound.

It was all about the blue pound into the future.

It was all about the blue pound into the future being central in the business model at Celtic that needed (then and now) a blue pound generating Rangers.

We all know now that compromise was somehow reached ahead of the Brechin cup tie in the summer of 2012.

Many – in fact most of –  Scottish football fans were glad that football had once again broken out, having become fed up with all the politics, and were glad to return to talking about players and stuff.

Football gossip is after all more comfortable than finding out we’d all been cheated for years.

Not all fans were ready to “Move-on” however.

Some, like many of us on this site and others like it wanted to dig deeper and examine just what happened and who did what.

Some wanted Celtic as the most wronged club to do and say more about Sporting Integrity.

Some wanted to rub their old rivals into the dirt.

Some wanted a full and frank review because they believed that without Sporting Integrity we would make the same mistakes in the future.

I’d be one of these fans.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Celtic shareholders who pieced together the jigsaw that led to Resolution 12, correctly identified that their club were illegally denied a place in the Champions League and denied substantial revenues.

Fair play to them.

If  I was a Celtic shareholder I personally would have wanted to know why my board had not pursued these significant revenues that were due to my company.

It was and is a big deal.

No it was and is a huge deal.

It remains an open sore and everyone involved seems to have ducked any blame.

I applaud those Requisitioner Shareholders for how they have gone about the process, and I have a huge respect for everything they have done on behalf of Celtic and fans of all Scottish clubs.

However in my opinion it was always doomed to failure because of the simple fact that their own club, having been an integral part of the whole murky “Armageddon” process, had already moved on into the new world they had helped to forge, and did not and could not look back.

So Resolution 12 was treated politely but cleverly by the club in the finest traditions of Sir Humphrey.

They did not want to fight their shareholders corner then and I’d suggest still don’t – and wont.

 

So going back to my five points earlier.

 

  1. Mr Lawwell et al did not want to establish the real truth, which they already knew. Hey had already signed up to what had been reported, moved the club on and spent his personal bonuses along the way no doubt.
  2. Mr Lawwell et al did not want a real debate because he and his small team had already done what they believed at the time to be right for the club they were paid to manage.
    Nothing more to say.
    And yes he could mumble agreement that Sporting Integrity is important when cornered but between us chaps it wouldn’t ever have filled the yawning gaps in the stands at Celtic Park without a Rangers counterbalance.
  3. Rangers are now back and the Old Firm is once again dominating Scottish Football.
    The truth at Celtic Park is we need each other and season book sales and TV revenues are up proving my point all along.
  4. We tolerate the intellectual end of our support, just, but they are hard work and you’d think they own the club.
    We even quite enjoy some of their stuff sometimes as long as its not too political but  we have a business to run and quite frankly sometimes they just don’t get it. They should realise the SFA and the SPFL are there to do a job for us and we keep them on a short enough leash.
  5. We will always be grateful to Fergus for what he did. We benefited at the time from the fan’s money and now run a very successful shareholder liaison programme. Once a year we have an AGM and try to manage the reality of running a business while having to hear from people who would prefer us to regress to what we were in the 1880s. Shareholders are fine but this club is a business and must be run as such.

 

My Five Insights sum up the position and stance of the Celtic Board.

I don’t know what will happen to Resolution 12.

The club never wanted it because they are a business and see the world differently from the group of fans who see themselves as the Celtic soul.

I applaud these Celtic fans.

Celtic does not deserve you.

About the author

Finloch author

Finloch has been a member of SFM since it's inception. A Hearts fan, he also penned the blog, Look Back to Look Forward

1,353 Comments so far

BarcabhoyPosted on8:56 am - Sep 22, 2016


It seems to me that a lot of the controversy around refereeing decisions would be avoided if TV and Radio pundits actually knew tne rules. The NFL broadcasters have a Referee in the New York studio , on call, to explain any contentious decisions. 

Last night’s Gordon decision was backed by Howard Webb, who knows the rules and had the opportunity and benefit of multiple replays. He was clear it was a Yellow card. Unfortunately he wasn’t brought on to explain why it was a Yellow rather than a Red. In the meantime the viewers have to make do with the opinions of 3 experts , none of whom clearly understand the rules that govern that type of incident. 

What we then get is the following. Sutton desperate to make a critical comment to maintain his role as “Mr Outspoken” , Michael Stewart looked to be basing his view on a misinformed understanding of the rules , and Craigan just desperate to stick the boot into Celtic , as is normal for him. 

It might make for interesting viewing but it doesn’t add much to the quality of punditry.

I’ll caveat all of the above by admitting i’m no expert on the rules either. However i’m not paid to provide “expert opinion ” 

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tayredPosted on9:19 am - Sep 22, 2016


Barca – that is a straight red for a dangerous tackle. You don’t need to wonder about the intricacies of rules about where on the pitch, goal scoring opportunity or anything else. 

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BarcabhoyPosted on9:42 am - Sep 22, 2016


Tayred,

Howard Webb has refereed a CL final and a World Cup Final. Are you saying you know more than him ? 

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SmugasPosted on9:47 am - Sep 22, 2016


Didn’t see the coverage, haven’t even seen the tackle yet.  Where was Howard Webb in the equation BB?  Did they have him in a locked room and Stewart, Sutton and Craigen in another?  Or was this two different programmes?

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BarcabhoyPosted on9:58 am - Sep 22, 2016


Smugas

He passed his thoughts to BT after seeing the incident and replays. My point is the rules now are constantly changing. If you don’t know them, then you can’t make an accurate comment on this type of incident. Howard Webb clearly knows the rules and has had the benefit of seeing the incident multiple times.
He judged it to be a Yellow. 

Arguing with that, if you don’t know the rules, is a bit like telling your surgeon you know better than him .

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tayredPosted on10:04 am - Sep 22, 2016


A waist high tackle is a red card. I don’t care what Webb says!

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AllyjamboPosted on10:07 am - Sep 22, 2016


Barcabhoy

September 22, 2016 at 09:42

Tayred,

Howard Webb has refereed a CL final and a World Cup Final. Are you saying you know more than him ?
_________________________________-

By your reckoning, then, do we have to accept the word of a High Court judge, Lord Nimmo Smith, who has adjudicated at a much higher level than a World Cup Final, that RFC gained ‘no sporting advantage’ from their use of EBTs?

I’m not saying Gordon should have been sent off, I’ve only seen it from one angle online and have no idea whether or not he was the last man, but I agree with Tayred that the tackle, itself, would be enough to see red whether last man or not in most people’s eyes!

I’m afraid I’ve come to mistrust anyone’s ‘paid for’ opinion, for they all want invited back, and ‘in studio’ disagreements are what the program producers want! Besides, what retired referee could pass up an opportunity to show up any ex-player, or ‘make the referee’s job harder’ by agreeing that he’s made a (possible) game changing wrong decision?

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SmugasPosted on10:07 am - Sep 22, 2016


Absolutely agree (with BB) with one minor condition.  The referee saw it in real time and has to call it in real time.  I don’t doubt Howard’s interpretation with the benefit of multiple replays and you’ll excuse me if the pundits getting it wrong, again with the benefit of multiple replays, does not come as a major shock to me.  If the Ref saw it and called it ‘correctly’ in real time then he is to be commended for it and I look forward to him consistently applying the same rigour throughout the season.    

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BarcabhoyPosted on10:10 am - Sep 22, 2016


It wasn’t a tackle. Gordon fresh aired an attempted clearance and collided with the player. Reckless certainly, butbreal experts deemed it not a red card

 

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tayredPosted on10:14 am - Sep 22, 2016


Barca – I agree! It definitely wasn’t a tackle…..

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BarcabhoyPosted on10:15 am - Sep 22, 2016


Allyjambo

LNS made the correct decision based on the evidence presented. The fact is that the evidence and the terms of reference was contrived by Doncaster to arrive at his preferred outcome .
That evidence has now been discredited, and the No Sporting Advantage ruling has been blown up totally by the COS verdict that Rangers used EBT’s unlawfully . Should the Supreme Court uphold that verdict then LNS must be set aside 

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AllyjamboPosted on11:03 am - Sep 22, 2016


Barcabhoy

September 22, 2016 at 10:15

Allyjambo

LNS made the correct decision based on the evidence presented. The fact is that the evidence and the terms of reference was contrived by Doncaster to arrive at his preferred outcome .
That evidence has now been discredited, and the No Sporting Advantage ruling has been blown up totally by the COS verdict that Rangers used EBT’s unlawfully . Should the Supreme Court uphold that verdict then LNS must be set aside
________________

Barca,

In my opinion, LNS made a ‘paid for’ decision, though not, by any means, a ‘bribed’ or dishonest decision. Just like Howard Webb, he knew what he was being paid for, and delivered.

I am not suggesting, by the way, that Howard Webb is there to defend Celtic or it’s players, but he is there to lend ‘gravitas’ while stirring things up a bit with an ‘alternative’ perspective to the ‘footballing experts’!

From what little evidence I’ve seen I’d suggest that, even if he clearly wasn’t the last player, he’d have received a booking for a ‘professional’ foul, even if the foul hadn’t been so high, and dangerous, but the ‘tackle’, itself, undoubtedly merited a booking, at the very least, though we will see a number of straight reds for less ‘dangerous’ efforts as the season progresses.

I notice, though, that you describe in another post Gordon’s tackle as being ‘reckless’, is that not a description of an automatic red card tackle now? (I may be wrong on that, along with much else) I have often heard pundits (I know, I don’t trust their opinions) stating that the ref was correct to show red because the rules now state that ‘reckless’ tackles merit a red.

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wottpiPosted on12:12 pm - Sep 22, 2016


IFAB Laws of the Game 2016-17
Introduction
Direct and indirect free kicks and penalty kicks can only be awarded for offences and infringements committed when the ball is in play.
Direct free kick
A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:chargesjumps atkicks or attempts to kickpushesstrikes or attempts to strike (including head-butt)tackles or challengestrips or attempts to trip
If an offence involves contact it is penalised by a direct free kick or penalty kick.
Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed.
Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned
Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off

Gordon Jumps at, kick out with studs showing towards the opponents mid-riff, makes contact, all done at speed (no doubt trying to impress the manager with his outfield ability) definitely reckless. Seen Red cards given for similar.
If it had been Red who would have honestly been surprised?
If it had been at the other end Hoops fans would have been baying for a red card on the basis of it being excessive force against a treasured forward such as Griffiths or Dembele. End of.

Probably not Celtic’s fault anyway, he most likely learned such deplorable behaviour when with the dirty cheating Jambos as we know all Celtic players are saints. 🙂

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shugPosted on12:23 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Sorry guys much as I would have liked to see Celtic pumped out last night it clearly was not a goal scoring opportunity and could not in anyway be construed as overly aggressive as gordon was trying to make a clearance and missed the clearance completely and simply collided with the Alloa player. The ref seeing it in real time saw it exactly as it was so unless you are trying to say that gordon deliberately took the man out then yellow card offence is all it was. If anyone truly thinks this was deliberate then may I humbly suggest a visit to specsavers. However lets not get bogged down with the one incident lets also discuss how jim goodwin managed to stay on the park after heavy and persistent fouls on forrest numerous fouls on rogic, how about him taking toure out in the Alloa box off the ball as he was going for a return pass before the gordon incident or taking out tierney all of these were before he was booked he wasn’t even spoken to until the 51st minute that’s not counting pushing gordon to stop him from getting the ball away quickly or what about the tackle by I think it was graham on dembele was that just a yellow card maybe maybe not just saying like look at the whole game.

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The_SteedPosted on12:26 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Two things…

1. I would suggest that the tackle the Killie boy put in on Barton and the tackle from Craig Gordon last night were very similar in that they were both reckless, both got none of the ball, and that they both wiped the opponent out.  I think that sadly last night just highlighted the glaring inconsistencies in the standard of refereeing in Scotland as one was a yellow and one a red.

2. I understand about Howard Webb saying that it was only a yellow, but I can’t for the life of me understand why.  If Gordon connected with the Alloa boys head, would that still only be a yellow – I think not (and the Alloa boy would probably have been feeling the worse for wear with an impression of Gordon’s boot on his napper).  So, does it matter where on the body you nail someone?  Well, according to the tackle on Barton (which was on the shin I think) then the answer would be no- which brings us back to how could it just be a yellow?

Answers on a postcard…

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tayredPosted on12:33 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Doesn’t matter if it was a goal scoring opportunity, it was reckless and excessive. We have all seen players sent off for a lot less (and not sent off for a lot more it has to be said). 

We are of course forgetting Rogic and his diving – anyone heard from Brown yet? Players dive – I hate it, I want it punished whenever its spotted, so well done to the referee on that one last night – but captains calling players for other team cheats really should make damned sure his team is whiter than white before opening his gob.

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paddy malarkeyPosted on12:38 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Sorry if this has been raised already (slow as well as thick,me) but I’ve just noticed that Aberdeen play St johnstone, a Premiership team, tonight . TRFC played QoS on Tuesday .  Aberdeen play TRFC on Sunday, having {probably/possibly)had a more testing match and having two days less recovery time . How did that happen ?

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tayredPosted on12:42 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Hi Paddy, its all down to TV. We played Sunday, so couldn’t play again on Tuesday, Celtic were on TV last night, so we have to play tonight. I’d like to claim bias, but in this case its irritating, but probably all above board. I just hope McInness has the sense to have a go at TRFC, he has become far too timid of late, god knows why he signed all those forwards..

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smallchangePosted on1:22 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Tayred
Hi Paddy, its all down to TV. We played Sunday, so couldn’t play again on Tuesday, Celtic were on TV last night, so we have to play tonight. I’d like to claim bias, but in this case its irritating, but probably all above board. I just hope McInness has the sense to have a go at TRFC, he has become far too timid of late, god knows why he signed all those forwards.
—————————————————————
I agree, he should get his front men stuck in on Sunday.
To ensure that they are in a position to do just that would it not be wise to ensure that they don’t show too much exuberance tonight, thus saving their energy for the TRFC match. 15

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bigsbeePosted on1:43 pm - Sep 22, 2016


I’ve not seen the ‘Gordon tackle’ so difficult to comment on red or yellow – but referees are obliged to consider ‘intent’. So if as described, Gordon aimed for but missed the ball completely, and then ‘took out’ the player, then the offence is a reckless challenge and thus a yellow card – but as I said I did not see the incident.  Also, people should move away from terms such as ‘last man’ etc.  This does not exist in the Laws of the Game – clear goal scoring opportunity is the key wording, with an emphasis on clear.  This would take into account whether or not there were other defenders able to intervene (not necessarily in position between the incident and the goal), the distance from goal, the direction the player was moving in etc – all in the space of half a second – who’d be a referee eh!

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tayredPosted on2:45 pm - Sep 22, 2016


SMALLCHANGESEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 13:22

19 Given our history against what I assume is your team (St Johnstone) I wouldn’t worry too much about us. McInness seems to be clueless about how to take your lads on. Two up front Derek if your reading – you know you want to!

Oh and drop bloody McLean!

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StevieBCPosted on3:07 pm - Sep 22, 2016


BB – you’ll get put on the naughty step for starting a ‘refereeing decision’ thread ! 22

But since you asked: didn’t see the ‘tackle’ but it fits with a general view that goalkeepers are way overprotected IMO – and especially when you see old black & white TV footage of the physical challenges they used to deal with.  A fair challenge on the goalkeeper nowadays – with minimal contact – is frequently called as a a foul.  Yet a keeper can routinely come charging out with his knee raised high to protect himself, but flatten an opposition player ? 

So, moving swiftly on…I applaud the Dons fans who plan to have a minute’s applause on the 12th minute – in remembrance of the Rangers which died in 2012 !

That is footy banter.  Cruel but funny.  No dodgy banners/effigies.  Can’t stop it.
A polite ‘kick in the goolies’ to the opposition.

…the bears will be raging !!!  21

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StevieBCPosted on4:11 pm - Sep 22, 2016


John James site claiming that Hampden is being discussed for usage by TRFC for 2 seasons.

Makes perfect sense: the most disreputable Scottish football club making the location of the most disreputable Scottish sports governing bodies their home…’birds of a feather’ and all that…    

https://johnjamessite.com/

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on4:38 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Every time I see Hampden mentioned, I wonder what the licensing limitations on its usage are.

Of course, if there are existing restrictions, I’m sure that they would be overcome for the additional 20 or so TRFC full-house ‘home’ games a season…

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shugPosted on5:12 pm - Sep 22, 2016


BIGSBEESEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 13:43
Even without seeing the incident you have it spot on there was no intent.

As for the rogic booking lads never a dive mr goodwin stood on his foot tell you what I ask anyone to go for a wee run with a ball and get a mate to stand on their foot as they go past then come on and tell us what happened.

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goosygoosyPosted on5:16 pm - Sep 22, 2016


PADDY MALARKEYSEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 12:38 
Sorry if this has been raised already (slow as well as thick,me) but I’ve just noticed that Aberdeen play St johnstone, a Premiership team, tonight . TRFC played QoS on Tuesday .  Aberdeen play TRFC on Sunday, having {probably/possibly)had a more testing match and having two days less recovery time . How did that happen ?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Whats the problem?
The name of the game is to keep funding the establishment club
TRFC will play Morton in the semi and who cares if Celtic face Aberdeen or St Johnstone
The TRFC ties were decided months ago 
Just like they always are

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shugPosted on7:35 pm - Sep 22, 2016


oh oh hayes oot.

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upthehoopsPosted on7:46 pm - Sep 22, 2016


GOOSYGOOSYSEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 17:16
 The name of the game is to keep funding the establishment club

==============================

Whether that involves fixing cup draws might be far fetched, there can be no doubt that when the authorities (football and no-football) declare there MUST always be a ‘Rangers’ then it will be funded one way or another.  The emergency services were ordered to keep covering their games in 2012 despite not getting paid for the ones they had already covered.  By saying ‘Rangers’ can’t die, the football authorities are effectively stating there could be any number of insolvency events an d the ‘club’ will always be admitted to the league. 

The next things to watch out for is who will fund any expensive repairs required to Ibrox, and if they do have to relocate to Hampden, what will the charge be.

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wottpiPosted on8:03 pm - Sep 22, 2016


http://www.efl.com/news/article/2016/premier-league-b-teams-ruled-out-following-first-phase-of-consultation-3322371.aspx

Following a meeting of its clubs on Thursday (22 September), the EFL confirmed that the inclusion of Premier League B Teams, clubs from non-English leagues or those outside the English football pyramid will not form part of any ongoing discussions for the ‘Whole Game Solution’.

Now can we all just move on please? (or at least for a while until some knob-end raises it again in a few years time)

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parttimearabPosted on8:22 pm - Sep 22, 2016


WOTTPISEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 20:03
=========================
Kind of, they’ll just move on to the “Atlantic League” until someone rules that out…then it’ll be back to the EPL/EFL…and round and round…

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AllyjamboPosted on9:26 pm - Sep 22, 2016


StevieBC

September 22, 2016 at 16:11

John James site claiming that Hampden is being discussed for usage by TRFC for 2 seasons.

Makes perfect sense: the most disreputable Scottish football club making the location of the most disreputable Scottish sports governing bodies their home…’birds of a feather’ and all that…

https://johnjamessite.com/
——————————

If this is accurate, then the question remains, how on earth could TRFC afford it? Not only the cost of hiring Hampden, but also the cost of the repairs, especially if it should take 2 years to complete them!

Of course, I am sure King wouldn’t baulk at the prospect of moving to Hampden, paying the ‘rent’ from accrued prize money at the end of the season (thus increasing the football governors desire – to a level of desperation – for TRFC’s beneficial cup draws), or maybe even a reciprocal arrangement with Murray Park for Scotland squad training and other SFA sponsored events, and…keeping his fingers crossed that some money will turn up from somewhere to pay for the repairs.

I would suspect, though, that any discussions TRFC are having (again, if JJ’s information is accurate) about the roof repairs will be no more than a necessary precursor to closing the aging behemoth down. I can envisage the roofs being removed to facilitate the ‘repair’, never to be seen again…

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andyPosted on9:42 pm - Sep 22, 2016


GOOSYGOOSYSEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 17:16       24 Votes 
PADDY MALARKEYSEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 12:38 Sorry if this has been raised already (slow as well as thick,me) but I’ve just noticed that Aberdeen play St johnstone, a Premiership team, tonight . TRFC played QoS on Tuesday .  Aberdeen play TRFC on Sunday, having {probably/possibly)had a more testing match and having two days less recovery time . How did that happen ?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Whats the problem?The name of the game is to keep funding the establishment clubTRFC will play Morton in the semi and who cares if Celtic face Aberdeen or St JohnstoneThe TRFC ties were decided months ago Just like they always are

____________
Suttons involved in  the draw 
cant see him being involved in any fix to favour a team from Ibrox

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andyPosted on9:48 pm - Sep 22, 2016


semis are
Morton aberdeen
rangers  celtic

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goosygoosyPosted on9:57 pm - Sep 22, 2016


ANDYSEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 21:42       Rate This 
GOOSYGOOSYSEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 17:16       24 Votes PADDY MALARKEYSEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 12:38 Sorry if this has been raised already (slow as well as thick,me) but I’ve just noticed that Aberdeen play St johnstone, a Premiership team, tonight . TRFC played QoS on Tuesday .  Aberdeen play TRFC on Sunday, having {probably/possibly)had a more testing match and having two days less recovery time . How did that happen ?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Whats the problem?The name of the game is to keep funding the establishment clubTRFC will play Morton in the semi and who cares if Celtic face Aberdeen or St JohnstoneThe TRFC ties were decided months ago Just like they always are
____________Suttons involved in  the draw cant see him being involved in any fix to favour a team from Ibrox
semis areMorton aberdeenrangers celtic
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Well done Chris
Another hammering coming up

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berrtyPosted on10:03 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Who will be heading up the inquiry to the botched draw

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StevieBCPosted on10:15 pm - Sep 22, 2016


ALLYJAMBOSEPTEMBER 22, 2016 at 21:26 I would suspect, though, that any discussions TRFC are having (again, if JJ’s information is accurate) about the roof repairs will be no more than a necessary precursor to closing the aging behemoth down. I can envisage the roofs being removed to facilitate the ‘repair’, never to be seen again…
================================
Absolutely !

If the story is indeed true, and TRFC does move ‘temporarily’ to Hampden…then the logic next move is for TRFC to declare Ibrox uneconomical to repair, [not that they are skint], and they simply ‘demand’ to stay at Hampden.
…for the good of Scottish football of course !

And sell off or lease the Ibrox site for a few quid – to pay the ‘leccy bills ?

[I believe Queens Park might need some persuading, but I’m sure Regan & Doncaster could come up with some incentive or threat to assist their favourite, dodgy club.]

Edit: guess that will be the last time Sutton assists with a Draw ? 🙂

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Cluster OnePosted on10:23 pm - Sep 22, 2016


Let’s hope all at Hampden have learned some lessons from the cup final before the semi’s take place

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gunnerbPosted on10:43 pm - Sep 22, 2016


A shot in the dark

January 2017: Rangers statement : ” After an investigation by our engineering advisers it has come to our attention that there may be a safety issue regarding the Copeland road stand.
To close the stand and deny fans the opportunity of supporting the team is a difficult decision but one we take with safety uppermost in our minds. We have decided in order to accommodate
our season ticket holders that we will temporarily relocate our football operations to Hampden Park. The Scottish Football Association and ourselves have come to an amicable rolling agreement and
season tickets will be valid for all forthcoming fixtures. Our first game at Hampden Park will be February.

Late April: Rangers statement: Rangers Football club has commissioned a thorough survey of Ibrox stadium by the foremost civil engineering company. We envisage this will take 3 months and we will be ready to return
to our home for the beginning of next season.

Late August:Rangers statement: Questions have been raised regarding parts of the the ground outwith Copeland Road and we are expecting a complete review by the end of the year.

February 2018:Rangers statement:We now have the complete report from our surveyors and are considering how best to proceed. A committee has been engaged to plan for the refurbishment and will reconvene in May with proposals on how best to action their recommendations.

July 2018: Rangers statement:The board is now in receipt of the committee recommendations and are considering a number of options.

November 2018: Rangers statement:The board has asked a select few engineering bodies with the highest experience of such matters to tender proposals to bring the stadium up to the level required.We have insisted in the tender document that all proposals pay heed to the dignity,stature and history of our beloved home.

February 2019:Rangers statement: We now have solid proposals from our preferred bidder and are in serious negotiations to start the renovation as soon as possible.

May 2019:….does anybody care any more?…anybody??

Addendum: Hampden Park costs..£100,000 per annum less incidentals

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tonyPosted on10:55 pm - Sep 22, 2016


GUNNERB
i remember wee fergus paying £500k per year and that was over 20 years ago

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shugPosted on6:49 am - Sep 23, 2016


Will queens park not have a say in all this after all it is they who are the owners.

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shugPosted on7:34 am - Sep 23, 2016


When you think about it Celtic v t’rangers had to be the semi final as it will mean a big crowd and loadsa dosh with at least one of them getting to the final I’m not sure if either of them could get past Aberdeen or Morton.

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fan of footballPosted on7:34 am - Sep 23, 2016


I seem to recall the SFA SPFL giving notice to vacate hampden for the office base a few months back 
I too believe that Fergus was very vocal as to the 1/2m per season cost of the hampden rental 

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fan of footballPosted on7:37 am - Sep 23, 2016


SHUGSEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 06:49       3 Votes 
Will queens park not have a say in all this after all it is they who are the owners.
========================================================
I’ll do the jokes Shug 
🙂

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Bryce CurdyPosted on7:53 am - Sep 23, 2016


Highlander 08:07
I accept that Celtic have benefitted from a couple of dubious refereeing decisions at the start of this season, but disagree entirely that this is the norm and part of a bigger picture where Celtic as a ‘supposed giant’ benefit consistently rather than randomly at the expense of ‘the diddy teams’.  I will not pass comment on any other ‘supposed Giants’.  My memory is perhaps a little selective but I honestly believe that overall we have suffered more than we have gained over my lifetime (49th birthday next month) as a Celtic supporter.  And before you or anybody challenges me on this reflect that cited proof that ‘these things even themselves out’ includes a thrown in on the half way line in the 1989 Cup Final and an incorrectly awarded corner against Motherwell in 2008.

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tayredPosted on8:54 am - Sep 23, 2016


Bryce min! The bigger the club the bigger their “luck”. It was always thus, and that is how it will remain. Referees are only human, they know a cock up in a Kilmarnock v ICT game will get barely a mention in the press. A cock up in a game involving CFC or RFC will get them dogs abuse in the press. Add to that the baying masses in the ground and of course they will be swayed, sub-consciously I’d add (most of the time). Every fan from every club thinks they are hard done by referees, thats the nature of being a fan. But seriously, Celtic have not suffered more than they have gained via referees decisions – Chopper Gordon being but the latest. 

By the way, BT showed the Kung Fu tackle again last night from including from a couple of angles I hadn’t seen before. How anyone can claim that wasn’t a red card is way beyond me. He didn’t just collide with the player, he extends his leg right across the waist of the player immediately prior to contact. IMO that is not just “accidental” or clumsy, that was intended to ensure the Alloa player was flattened.

I know many will disagree, but lets take the argument away from club lines what I would ask is given the statements that Howard Webb says its a yellow – why is it a yellow?? I’d also take to task that a former referee is any better placed to make that call than numerous former players (whose opinions that I’ve heard are 100% its a red) – to me, and to players it seems, if Mr Webb is correct in the strict application of the rules, then there is something very wrong with the laws as they stand. If that was a tackle in the midfield, or by a defender coming in from the side of the attacker, would it have been a yellow? Assuming, of course, the tackler wasn’t in a green and white striped jumper 1512

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shugPosted on9:17 am - Sep 23, 2016


It is easy read and understand the rules it was a yellow no intent not overly aggressive this is why the big clubs think we are diddy clubs.As I pointed out goodwin could have and probably should have been sent off and a penalty given for his foul off the ball in the box on Toure as this was his umpteenth foul all committed well before the gordon misclearance look at the whole game if gordon had connected with the ball it wouldn’t even have been a foul there was more given against Celtic than went for them.

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SmugasPosted on9:20 am - Sep 23, 2016


GunnerB.  I suspect you may have made up those statements 1002.  Not nearly enough mention of enemies, retribution, punishment, glorious or returning for my liking.  (Actually, don’t bother with “returning,” the Herald is doing that multiple times daily at the moment). 

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tayredPosted on9:39 am - Sep 23, 2016


Shug – no argument on the the Goodwin debate, but thats pure whataboutery. Completely disagree with every point you make about Gordon. If you are happy with waist high assaults on players then fair enough. Anyway, this is going round in circles now, maybe we should just gracefully agree to disagree and move on.

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John ClarkPosted on10:25 am - Sep 23, 2016


The good news is that”The Scotsman” today reports that the head of BBC Scotland (Ken McQuarrie) is to leave the job after seven tears.

The bad news is that he will be carrying his ‘unionist’ views into a seat on the BBC’s executive board with responsibilities UK-wide.

He says” We want to represent and report all corners of the UK…..I’ll enjoy championing our excellent nations and regions teams at the top table”

He’s done a pretty good job in  allowing BBC Scotland to champion ONE ‘ (football)team in one nation, and in permitting partisan employees and sundry ‘pundits’ to use our money to propagate untruth and try to cover up the disgraceful acts that the Football Authorities perpetrated , to the detriment of Sporting Integrity, and the erstwhile good name of the BBC.

I do not wish him well in his new job.

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shugPosted on10:35 am - Sep 23, 2016


Last word from me it was not a waist high tackle never mind an assault it was a misclearance that went wrong the amazing thing is how quickly the player recovered from this so called assault. There is no whataboutery from me seeing as everything else came before and anyone can disagree with any point I make however it is only an opinion and no more valid than my own. However howard webb who is more entitled to comment has done so infact according to what was said before the game last night numerous refs have been asked about it and all come to the same conclusion yellow card end of story.

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shugPosted on10:49 am - Sep 23, 2016


The good thing though is we now know that Aberdeen have to be the favourites to lift the league cup now.
If t’rangers beat Celtic then the Dons will batter them I think and if it’s Celtic I believe it will be very close with the Dons lifting their game and winning by the odd goal.

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tayredPosted on11:40 am - Sep 23, 2016


Oh Shug….. Morton gives me the heebie-jeebies. Just mention Andy Ritchie to any Aberdeen supporter over a certain age and watch them shudder! One game at a time my friend! 

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Pat ByrnePosted on11:44 am - Sep 23, 2016


Shug,
I was in total agreement up to the point you wrote “If t’rangers beat Celtic”
someone’s been reading the silly papers again you naughty boy

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HighlanderPosted on11:56 am - Sep 23, 2016


As the person who started the debate on Craig Gordon’s challenge, I’d just like to clarify a couple of points.

A few posters have commented on the guidelines referees should follow when deciding which colour of card, if any, to issue when such a tackle occurs and others have cited the opinion of an ex-referee as being definitive.

However, if you’d been sitting a school exam, most of you would have failed for missing a fundamental instruction – RTFQ*!!!!

I didn’t say that a red card was appropriate, I merely suggested that if the Alloa keeper had committed precisely the same assault on a Celtic player, it’s difficult to imagine he’d have remained on the pitch. That’s an entirely different argument from which colour of card was appropriate because it instead looks at how referees are swayed by the pressure of making decisions before a much bigger crowd etc, as Tayred rightly pointed out above.

As it happens I’m a big fan of Craig Gordon (to me he’s infinitely superior to Dorus de Vries) and I don’t believe for a second that he intended to maim the Alloa player, but a clearer red card is difficult to imagine, regardless of intent, as is the thought that Alloa’s keeper wouldn’t have been sent off for committing precisely the same offence, which was the entire point of my original post.

*RTFQ = Read The F***ing Question 

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Corrupt officialPosted on12:09 pm - Sep 23, 2016


Will Kenny Miller be facing a lifetime ban from Crumbledome?    21

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-37450691

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John ClarkPosted on1:04 pm - Sep 23, 2016


Corrupt officialSeptember 23, 2016 at 12:09
‘..Will Kenny Miller be facing a lifetime ban from Crumbledome.’
________
Suspicious as ever of the SMSM, I ask ‘when exactly was Miller arrested?’ Was it only this morning?
Did it take the Procurator Service 13 days to read the Police report of the’ incident’, or were they hoping to find a way of not acting on the report?
And was there a report by the SMSM that an ‘incident’ involving Miller had occurred on 10th September?
That BBC report was particulary unilluminating.

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Bryce CurdyPosted on1:05 pm - Sep 23, 2016


Tayred, Highlander
Any Celtic fan I have ever spoken to about the matter would bite your hand off for Scotland to use foreign referees.  There is a dedicated thread on the Kerrydalestreet forum called Ref Watch I think.  Nearly everyone acknowledges that we have benefitted from two decisions not just in our favour but in a row!  The in a row bit honestly feels unheralded.  In my lifetime I am utterly convinced that up until liquidation Rangers benefitted from an X point handicap compared to Celtic and the other clubs every season of my life.  The quantity of X is up for debate and varied from season to season.

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Corrupt officialPosted on1:24 pm - Sep 23, 2016


JOHN CLARKSEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 13:04

Maybe you will find this more “illuminating” John

http://thecelticblog.com/2016/09/blogs/the-curious-case-of-kenny-millers-arrest-and-how-it-played-out-in-the-press/

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HighlanderPosted on1:52 pm - Sep 23, 2016


BRYCE CURDYSEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 13:05
In my lifetime I am utterly convinced that up until liquidation Rangers benefitted from an X point handicap compared to Celtic and the other clubs every season of my life. The quantity of X is up for debate and varied from season to season.

You certainly won’t find me disagreeing with that point.

However, it doesn’t alter the fact that, in the grand scheme of things, Celtic also benefit from a disproportionate number of decisions in their favour against the supposed lesser teams, when not viewed through green-tinted glasses, much in the same way as you’re saying Rangers* do against Celtic and the rest. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

I genuinely don’t believe it’s based on bias for the most part, but just why referees appear to be susceptible to the size of the crowd and occasion, or a particular team, is open to conjecture.

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tayredPosted on2:15 pm - Sep 23, 2016


BRYCE CURDYSEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 13:05

I am aware of that very thread, and the widely held belief that your friends across the city benefit from a handicap system. But as far as the rest of the clubs are concerned while (T)RFC may have a handicap to the value of X, Celtic also have one (lets call it X-1 for the sake of arguments, or is it +1 – you know what I mean anyway!) compared to the rest of us.

How true any of it is… well thats the debate. I’d suggest the effect of large crowds and the likelihood of assignation by the press must have some effect on referees.

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Cluster OnePosted on2:35 pm - Sep 23, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIALSEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 12:09       4 Votes 
Will Kenny Miller be facing a lifetime ban from Crumbledome?    
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-37450691
——————————–
No. he will be given the captains armband. They have previous for doing this when a player has been involved in an   altercation

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shugPosted on2:36 pm - Sep 23, 2016


PAT BYRNESEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 11:44

Shug,I was in total agreement up to the point you wrote “If t’rangers beat Celtic”someone’s been reading the silly papers again you naughty boy

No pat please don’t say that I don’t read the rags as I don’t take salt and anything in them would need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

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StevieBCPosted on3:27 pm - Sep 23, 2016


I told the wife about the Dons fans’ plan to have a minute’s applause on the 12 minute – in remembrance of Rangers who died in 2012.

She thought that was both ingenious and hilarious – and reinforced the majority opinion of a new club, to TRFC, the SMSM and the SFA/SPFL blazers.

She also suggested that every game involving TRFC should have a minute’s applause too, out of respect.
Sounds like a great idea…  14

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AllyjamboPosted on4:43 pm - Sep 23, 2016


STEVIEBCSEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 15:27 
I told the wife about the Dons fans’ plan to have a minute’s applause on the 12 minute – in remembrance of Rangers who died in 2012.
She thought that was both ingenious and hilarious – and reinforced the majority opinion of a new club, to TRFC, the SMSM and the SFA/SPFL blazers.
She also suggested that every game involving TRFC should have a minute’s applause too, out of respect.Sounds like a great idea…  
_____________

The Aberdeen supporters’ planned applause has provided an added incentive to watch the game, not only to enjoy the spectacle, but to see what efforts are made by all involved in the Sky coverage to avoid/ignore/excuse/belittle and, most likely, pretend it didn’t happen – just like liquidation!

One thing worth listening out for will be how often mention is made of how many times the clubs have played each other or how many years the fixture has been ongoing, with a four year gap, of course. That and any other suggestion that there is a history between the clubs, though there is undoubtedly a history between the two sets of supporters, but that’s an entirely different thing altogether!

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on4:46 pm - Sep 23, 2016


Just as an aside re TRFC/Hampden:

What self-respecting TRFC fan would accept being seated game after game in the Kings’ Park end at Hampden? The very thought would cause a few melons to explode  111111

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AllyjamboPosted on4:57 pm - Sep 23, 2016


JINGSO.JIMSIESEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 16:46 
Just as an aside re TRFC/Hampden:
What self-respecting TRFC fan would accept being seated game after game in the Kings’ Park end at Hampden? The very thought would cause a few melons to explode  
___________________
 
More likely to be oranges, I’d have thought 21  111111

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John ClarkPosted on5:29 pm - Sep 23, 2016


Corrupt officialSeptember 23, 2016 at 13:24
‘..Maybe you will find this more “illuminating” John ‘
___________
Grateful for that link, Corrupt official. I remember now having seen some reference to Miller being ’round and about’ an incident without being involved.
The link to James Forrest’s piece points up once again how badly served we are by our SMSM.
There would appear not to be an honest journalist prepared to report the basics of news reporting, the ‘who, what, when, where’ of a newsworthy event.
Eyes on the Court Rolls to see if and when a trial date is set!
Not that I personally give two flying figs about celebrity alleged misbehaviour- I simply want to see how much lying has been done by cover-up journalsits.
They are a more pernicious enemy of society than any highly paid footballer.

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StevieBCPosted on5:37 pm - Sep 23, 2016


ALLYJAMBO
SEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 16:43… 
The Aberdeen supporters’ planned applause has provided an added incentive to watch the game…
========================
Yes, I have now made plans to get up early on Sunday to watch, simply because of this planned display.

Ideally, late in the 11th minute the ball should be played back to the Aberdeen keeper to hold up the play.
The Aberdeen players should then clap vigorously towards the TRFC players on the pitch.
The TRFC players will simply lose it, IMO. 14
And Aberdeen are guaranteed 3 points !

[You can’t get sent off / sent to the stands for simply clapping can you ?]

It should be an entertaining game.

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easyJamboPosted on6:57 pm - Sep 23, 2016


Resolution 12 questions/update on etims.net

http://etims.net/?p=9952

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goosygoosyPosted on6:59 pm - Sep 23, 2016


CORRUPT OFFICIALSEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 12:09
Will Kenny Miller be facing a lifetime ban from Crumbledome?  
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Rangers striker Kenny Miller has been arrested in connection with an alleged disturbance at a restaurant, hours after his team lost 5-1 to Celtic.
The incident happened at Da Luciano in Bothwell, South Lanarkshire, on Saturday 10 September.
A spokesman for Police Scotland confirmed that a 36-year-old man had been arrested.
He said the man was the subject of a report to the procurator fiscal in connection with the incident.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This is how intimidation works
4 sentences was all we got about this incident
Not just on the BBC
But also on every other online news outlet
Nobody asked about bail
Nobody asked which police station he attended
Nobody asked what possible charges might be made
Nobody went to the Restaurant and pointed out where the alleged offences took place
Nobody went to MP to get a view from TRFC
Nobody interviewed anybody at the scene

Zilch, Nada, Nothing
Ah Well

At least they mentioned losing 5-1 to Celtic

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Cluster OnePosted on7:28 pm - Sep 23, 2016


sorry Mods18

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shugPosted on7:53 pm - Sep 23, 2016


According to sky info for the game the last match between the sides in the league back in 2012 ended 1-1 lol.

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RyanGoslingPosted on7:58 pm - Sep 23, 2016


Cluster One,

“No. he will be given the captains armband. They have previous for doing this when a player has been involved in an altercation”

What previous are you referring to? Was it Barry Ferguson? But wasn’t that a different club? You couldn’t possibly be cherry picking the bits of the history you want to keep and discarding the ones you don’t could you?

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shugPosted on7:58 pm - Sep 23, 2016


STEVIEBCSEPTEMBER 23, 2016 at 17:37

The Aberdeen supporters’ planned applause has provided an added incentive to watch the game…========================Yes, I have now made plans to get up early on Sunday to watch, simply because of this planned display.
Ideally, late in the 11th minute the ball should be played back to the Aberdeen keeper to hold up the play.The Aberdeen players should then clap vigorously towards the TRFC players on the pitch.The TRFC players will simply lose it, IMO.  And Aberdeen are guaranteed 3 points !

Wicked very wicked but would be oh so funny lol.

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shugPosted on8:00 pm - Sep 23, 2016


Hi ryan glad to see you back posting mate.

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