Or, a story of how and why Mr Lawwell consigned resolution 12 to the deepest grass;
by Finloch
“It’s about history and being neighbours”, young Elisabeth said to her mum.
And it has to be done for tomorrow, Elisabeth said.
“I’m supposed to ask in an in-person interview about what life was like where an older neighbour grew up and what was life like when the neighbour was my age.
It’s not my fault that we’re new here and haven’t spoken to our old, next door neighbour yet and don’t even know his name.
“I’ve an idea her mother said, why don’t you make it up.
Pretend you’re asking him questions and then write down the answers you think he’d give”.
“It’s supposed to be true”, Elisabeth said. “It’s for News”.
“They’ll never know”, her mother said. “Just make it up.
The real news is always made up anyway”.
I was lucky enough to catch Ali Smith at the Edinburgh Book Festival.
I was part of a very diverse audience and unusually for this kind of event nobody in the sold-out Charlotte Square tent had a Scooby about what she was going to share with us.
Most would have been expecting a reading or two from her recent short story collection, Public Library, about the cynical, thoughtless and almost silent and unpublicised demise of Libraries up and down our land.
Our libraries.
Our land.
Ali is always value for money though and was amazing, reading from her as yet unpublished “Autumn” book, the first she said of a four-book series.
As I listened to her, I was also thinking and juggling around at the back of my mind about what I was going to write for this blog, having been asked for my thoughts, as a non-involved, non-Celtic supporter, on how I see the Resolution 12 situation.
Well Ali’s words stung like a bee and proved quite inspirational. The wisdom and clarity in her new books is highly relevant to all of us who care about Scottish Football and Resolution 12 including Mr Lawwell, Mr Doncaster, Mr Regan, Mr Petrie and us too – the real stakeholders.
Ali also shared with us a Bernard Maclaverty insight from when he once visited a school as part of (I think) a Scottish creative writing initiative and in the course of his talk asked some youngsters,
“What is fiction” ?
Someone put their hand up and said “Please Sir, it’s made up truth”.
Near the end Ali also got to talking about post Brexit Britain and used the chaos to ask the bigger question.
“Why do we never seem to have real debates about anything and why in any “debate” we might see or read that there never seems to be room for to-ing and fro-ing on points because everyone seems to have already made their minds up and just wants to maintain their status quos, achieve their own personal agendas or to steamroller us all to their point of view”.
“People in power seem to be genuinely scared of honest debates”, she said.
She asked how without more real discussions and insightful and open minded debates can any of us (and the debaters themselves too) learn because without that we will just get more of what we’ve had.
And that’s not good enough.
So thanks Ali I’m going to combine these three things from your hour along with two personal career experiences and review Mr Lawwell and his company’s reaction to the bona fide Resolution 12 raised by some of his shareholders a few years ago.
(My career experiences were as the head of a small, and treated as unimportant, company that was part of a worldwide group of companies run (badly) out of the US; and my time as head of a trade association that had two very dominant and troublesome members).
My Five Insights to review Resolution 12 are.
- Some people think “made up news is fine” and feed us all with it all the time.
- Don’t expect real discussions or debates about anything in your club. No two way dialogues, except from those about money once a year.
- “Made up Truths” become gospel not to be challenged.
- The people running the club know they are smarter and more important than any of their minority or remote stakeholders.
- All decisions that really matter in football or indeed in any business are pre-agreed and never discussed in the open.
So now to what I think of Resolution 12.
My starting point is to say this. It is wrong to see or to discuss Mr Lawwell and Resolution 12 as being about the awarding of a license – or the boardroom processes since The Requisitioners first raised it.
Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.
In the late Murray days at Ibrox and in the early Whyte ownership period there had been rumours, and I’m certain deep and meaningful business discussions between the heads of the SFA and SPL and their key committee members.
You can be sure that the SFA, SPL, Celtic and others were all watching the post Murray Rangers situation closely, and the new regime at Ibrox and related financial stuff would have been the talk of the exclusive football steamies.
Despite what some Celtic fans believe, the reality has always been that while Rangers may have dominated (just) all things SFA and SPL, nothing was ever done without the knowledge of and input from the green side of the Old Firm business model.
Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.
Scotland’s unique, idiosyncratic, religio-political old firm business model was not just about driving the individual Glasgow teams to their leviathan duopoly in Scottish football. We all knew (because we were told so) that it was also the commercial bedrock of the business that is Scottish Football.
And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.
Put simply, Regan who was quite new, was convinced at the time – and still is absolutely certain – that the SFA and Scottish Football needed a dominant Celtic and Rangers, and he also personally needed and needs the support of their CEO’s.
Doncaster too was convinced that the SPL needed Celtic and Rangers arch rivalry with all it entails, delivering TV monies and maximizing his bonuses. He too also personally required and requires the support of the Old Firm CEO’s.
Lawwell the astute numbers man, under a constant watchful eye from Dublin, needed Rangers to ensure his business plan did not develop un-fillable black holes.
And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.
Importantly, Peter was also one of a small influential football group who effectively controlled the actions of Regan and Doncaster. Nothing strategic would ever have been done by either of them without his involvement and input. That doesn’t mean he necessarily knew all the detail about Craig’s UEFA license shenanigans but he’d have had his suspicions.
And you know something, – at a squeeze I think he and Desmond might have thought keeping a Rangers team alive (for its future dependable revenue streams) was maybe even worth one season’s lost Champions League status.
There is no doubt in my mind that in 2011 Peter and the Celtic Board were worried but supportive of and committed to keeping the Rangers company alive.
Looking back I don’t know when Lawwell and Desmond actually discovered de facto that Rangers should not have been awarded the license.
Was it before it was awarded?
Was it after by which time it was too late anyway?
Those would be two good questions to ask them.
I’d suggest that by the time they knew for sure it was too late, but I could be wrong.
Anyway history shows that pretty quickly after McCoist failed in Europe, Lawwell committed his club to the complex and complicated secret Five-Way Agreement and all it entailed.
Celtic were senior signed-up members of the attempt to help protect and leverage the future blue revenue streams into the SPL then the SPL 2 then the bottom level.
It was all about the blue pound.
It was all about the blue pound into the future.
It was all about the blue pound into the future being central in the business model at Celtic that needed (then and now) a blue pound generating Rangers.
We all know now that compromise was somehow reached ahead of the Brechin cup tie in the summer of 2012.
Many – in fact most of – Scottish football fans were glad that football had once again broken out, having become fed up with all the politics, and were glad to return to talking about players and stuff.
Football gossip is after all more comfortable than finding out we’d all been cheated for years.
Not all fans were ready to “Move-on” however.
Some, like many of us on this site and others like it wanted to dig deeper and examine just what happened and who did what.
Some wanted Celtic as the most wronged club to do and say more about Sporting Integrity.
Some wanted to rub their old rivals into the dirt.
Some wanted a full and frank review because they believed that without Sporting Integrity we would make the same mistakes in the future.
I’d be one of these fans.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Celtic shareholders who pieced together the jigsaw that led to Resolution 12, correctly identified that their club were illegally denied a place in the Champions League and denied substantial revenues.
Fair play to them.
If I was a Celtic shareholder I personally would have wanted to know why my board had not pursued these significant revenues that were due to my company.
It was and is a big deal.
No it was and is a huge deal.
It remains an open sore and everyone involved seems to have ducked any blame.
I applaud those Requisitioner Shareholders for how they have gone about the process, and I have a huge respect for everything they have done on behalf of Celtic and fans of all Scottish clubs.
However in my opinion it was always doomed to failure because of the simple fact that their own club, having been an integral part of the whole murky “Armageddon” process, had already moved on into the new world they had helped to forge, and did not and could not look back.
So Resolution 12 was treated politely but cleverly by the club in the finest traditions of Sir Humphrey.
They did not want to fight their shareholders corner then and I’d suggest still don’t – and wont.
So going back to my five points earlier.
- Mr Lawwell et al did not want to establish the real truth, which they already knew. Hey had already signed up to what had been reported, moved the club on and spent his personal bonuses along the way no doubt.
- Mr Lawwell et al did not want a real debate because he and his small team had already done what they believed at the time to be right for the club they were paid to manage.
Nothing more to say.
And yes he could mumble agreement that Sporting Integrity is important when cornered but between us chaps it wouldn’t ever have filled the yawning gaps in the stands at Celtic Park without a Rangers counterbalance. - Rangers are now back and the Old Firm is once again dominating Scottish Football.
The truth at Celtic Park is we need each other and season book sales and TV revenues are up proving my point all along. - We tolerate the intellectual end of our support, just, but they are hard work and you’d think they own the club.
We even quite enjoy some of their stuff sometimes as long as its not too political but we have a business to run and quite frankly sometimes they just don’t get it. They should realise the SFA and the SPFL are there to do a job for us and we keep them on a short enough leash. - We will always be grateful to Fergus for what he did. We benefited at the time from the fan’s money and now run a very successful shareholder liaison programme. Once a year we have an AGM and try to manage the reality of running a business while having to hear from people who would prefer us to regress to what we were in the 1880s. Shareholders are fine but this club is a business and must be run as such.
My Five Insights sum up the position and stance of the Celtic Board.
I don’t know what will happen to Resolution 12.
The club never wanted it because they are a business and see the world differently from the group of fans who see themselves as the Celtic soul.
I applaud these Celtic fans.
Celtic does not deserve you.
‘Group of Death’ indeed !
No great expectations, but it’s all good experience for the younger players especially…and it does help raise the profile of Scottish football as a whole.
In trying to show my appreciation of SFM I have suffered dreadfully trying to work out how to use RBS’s ‘make a payment online’ procedure for ‘adding a new payee’.
.
It must be my fault, perhaps some visual deficiency related to the impediment in my reach
I managed eventually, and a small additional( to my regular monthly mite) contribution is on its way to SFM coffers.
“The Independent Police Complaints Commission is to pursue a “further line of inquiry” over claims Freemasons held sway on decisions at the time of the Hillsborough disaster.
…
IPCC deputy chair Rachel Cerfontyne said: “We are pursuing a further line of inquiry on Freemasons.
“We are currently liaising with the United Grand Lodge of England, and they are assisting us by checking whether certain individuals involved in Hillsborough were Freemasons members…”
http://news.sky.com/story/police-watchdog-probes-freemasonry-claim-in-hillsborough-cover-up-10551394
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Surely not ? That could be a whole new can of worms opened if proven to be true…
SHUG
AUGUST 25, 2016 at 18:32 14 Votes
Oh my they def got a nightmare group nil points I think
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Just my personal opinion but I would rather my team was taking part in the biggest club competition in World football than not. With some of the best teams and players visiting their home ground and letting our team test themselves against the best.
Having watched Celtic play Barcelona at Celtic Park, and winning I can say the atmosphere was genuinely like nothing else I have ever experienced.
If it’s “nil points” then it’s “nil points”. I can honestly live with that. I’m sure the people who were knocked out in the first round of their Olympic event, and knew they were going to be, would still have moved Heaven and Earth to be there.
StevieBCAugust 25, 2016 at 20:08
Surely not ? That could be a whole new can of worms opened if proven to be true…
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Will never happen, ever ever ever!!
Homunculus,
I used to work with a guy who at a previous Games was fifth man in a relay team. I asked what that was like? The anticipation followed by the inevitable anti climax ( he didn’t feature before the team exited.) He replied well, it’s like this, you were at home sitting on your fat Bahookie watching but I can truly say I was there. Ok it wasn’t quite Tom Watson (?)’s enter the gladiators monologue but I got the jist of it.
jean. A couple of oddities recently over the Hillsborough thing. The masons link which I hadn’t seen before other than a tertiary mention from the usual sources but also the request yesterday for 20 or so individuals from the cctv of the queue just prior to the gate being opened.
HOMUNCULUSAUGUST 25, 2016 at 21:48 24 Votes
SHUGAUGUST 25, 2016 at 18:32 14 Votes Oh my they def got a nightmare group nil points I think
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Just my personal opinion but I would rather my team was taking part in the biggest club competition in World football than not. With some of the best teams and players visiting their home ground and letting our team test themselves against the best.
Having watched Celtic play Barcelona at Celtic Park, and winning I can say the atmosphere was genuinely like nothing else I have ever experienced.
If it’s “nil points” then it’s “nil points”. I can honestly live with that. I’m sure the people who were knocked out in the first round of their Olympic event, and knew they were going to be, would still have moved Heaven and Earth to be there.
You are correct of course what would worry me is the 35+ goals they could lose over the 6 games unless they shore up the defence.
HOMUNCULUSAUGUST 25, 2016 at 21:48
Sums it up for me.
It could end up a painful set of lessons but at the end of the day Celtic have the opportunity to participate, better than the alternative.
There is also a wee windfall for other Scottish clubs.
This seems to confirm that Dundee United get the solidarity payment.
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/149476879696/crumbs-from-the-table-celtic-qualify-but-is
If this is correct then you would think the hacks would have checked it out before getting the rangers hopes up.
SHUG
that’s the smsm’s job in scotland,make sure the govan garden is always rosy,lessons not learned
TrisidiumAugust 27, 2016 at 03:35
If you can answer my emails, you’re sorted .
Watched the BBC Prog and it covered what I expected for the 1st episode.
It will be interesting to see where they go being they have given us past examples of
Dodgy characters running clubs (who end up with convictions and in jail)
Mysterious funding/investments
Fans getting fleeced
Unsustainable costs while chasing Euro glory
Pitch invasions following a drought of silverware
Succulent Lamb and an unquestioning press.
Etc, etc etc..,…………………
I wonder if the Celtic programme next week will welcome the team formed in 2012 and calling itself Rangers to their first ever match at Celtic Park. That would be the courteous thing to do.
WOTTPIAUGUST 26, 2016 at 00:54
Watched the BBC Prog and it covered what I expected for the 1st episode.It will be interesting to see where they go being they have given us past examples of
Dodgy characters running clubs (who end up with convictions and in jail)Mysterious funding/investmentsFans getting fleecedUnsustainable costs while chasing Euro gloryPitch invasions following a drought of silverwareSucculent Lamb and an unquestioning press.Etc, etc etc..,…………………
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They stated last night that David Murray bankrolled Rangers transfer spree. That is simply not true, and completely contradicts a previous programme they ran when they revealed Murray had even borrowed the money he used to buy Rangers, from the bank which went on to fund them for years. It is also the bank Fergus McCann had to pay off which he referenced last night. The real story, and the motivation behind it, was missed IMO.
UPTHEHOOPSAUGUST 26, 2016 at 07:04
UTH is your version of The Six Sense as follows? :-
-Titles
-BTW Bruce Willis is died
-The End.
It is a 4 part documentary. They have shown McCann as part villian (yes, those were very big boos) slowly turning into hero.
SDM is however currently being portrayed as the hero of the piece.
I would give it time to see where they go.
As it looks from the trailer fro next week they are going for the deceased in the form of Brooks Mileson, if they then miss having a pop at SDM and the Bank of Scotland in the latter episodes then I will be right with you on writing a letter of complaint to the BBC,
My guess is they will string out the demise of Rangers, look how they got there (and how other clubs went into administration etc) and compare and contrast with Celtic’s position given the sound business principles put in place by McCann.
upthehoopsAugust 26, 2016 at 07:04
‘…They stated last night that David Murray bankrolled Rangers transfer spree. That is simply not true, and completely contradicts a previous programme they ran when they revealed Murray had even borrowed the money he used to buy Rangers, from the bank which went on to fund them for years..’
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I suspect that the remaining programmes will be similarly flawed by the refusal to tell the truth.
The truth about the ‘saga’.
And the truth about the circumstances under which the President of the SFA, a man personally acquaint with the ‘remuneration’ system used by the Big Chief Cheat,failed to ask how it could be that so many expensive players were content with the absurdly low levels of remuneration shown on the official returns from Ibrox.
It is one of the great scandals in Scottish journalistic history that we have journalists and editors who were/are Either too stupid to see what the rest of us wondered at OR only too happy to go along munching their bloody succulent lamb OR too bloody cowardly to ask questions.
In so far as BBC Scotland TV did at least air the Daly programme, I tended to except it somewhat from my criticism, whereas BBC Radio Scotland is up to its semi-literate, semi-articulate neck in propagation of the Big Lie, and, by extension, of every attempt to keep the lid on the rottenness.
But on last night’s ‘don’t criticise Murray , lump in the rest of the clubs’ greed and attitude’ episode, I’m beginning to re-think.
SHUG
AUGUST 25, 2016 at 22:52
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I don’t think we will lose an average of 6 goals, home and away in the 6 games we will play in.
However if we do we do. It wouldn’t be the first time we had lost 6 goals in one game and it wouldn’t be the first time we had put 6 past another team. It also wouldn’t be the first time we had beaten teams we “should have” lost to, or drawn with others who “should have” beaten us. The same can be said for other teams playing Celtic. We are just the small fish in a large pond as far as this tournament goes. That doesn’t mean every result is a foregone conclusion.
As I said earlier the main thing for me is being in the World’s biggest club tournament and bringing the best teams and players in the World to our ground. It let’s the fans see those players play and in my opinion helps attract better players to the club. Players who may not otherwise get a chance to play in the CL group stages. That surely must be a big draw for some, to actually get to play against the best, to test yourself, to put yourself in the proverbial shop window.
I really don’t see a negative in us qualifying for this tournament.
HOMUNCULUSAUGUST 26, 2016 at 10:29 Rate This
SHUGAUGUST 25, 2016 at 22:52
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I don’t think we will lose an average of 6 goals, home and away in the 6 games we will play in.
However if we do we do. It wouldn’t be the first time we had lost 6 goals in one game and it wouldn’t be the first time we had put 6 past another team. It also wouldn’t be the first time we had beaten teams we “should have” lost to, or drawn with others who “should have” beaten us. The same can be said for other teams playing Celtic. We are just the small fish in a large pond as far as this tournament goes. That doesn’t mean every result is a foregone conclusion.
As I said earlier the main thing for me is being in the World’s biggest club tournament and bringing the best teams and players in the World to our ground. It let’s the fans see those players play and in my opinion helps attract better players to the club. Players who may not otherwise get a chance to play in the CL group stages. That surely must be a big draw for some, to actually get to play against the best, to test yourself, to put yourself in the proverbial shop window.
I really don’t see a negative in us qualifying for this tournament.
For the mentality of the players I hope you are correct. I’m just looking at it from the 9 goals over both legs that gladbach took from young boys who I think are more or less on a par with Celtic at this point however a couple of positives are that Celtic have not been at full strength at the back for a long time and if they can get a half decent midfielder in before the window shuts they may be able to make a fist of it but you are correct that it is better to be there than not and I will be cheering them on as I would any Scottish team.
I post the following as an example of how poor some of the SMSM is, the lack of lessons learned from making unfounded accusation against football fans- a la Hillsborough – and what they are willing to do in terms of selling papers.
In this case the football fans happen to support T’Rangers but that fact should not deflect from the issues involved.
Next time it could be any one of us attending a game.
https://www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling/?id=03188-16
SHUG
AUGUST 25, 2016 at 18:32
Oh my they def got a nightmare group nil points I think.
::
STEVIEBC
AUGUST 25, 2016 at 19:05
‘Group of Death’ indeed !
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I don’t think it’s the worst draw. Little expected & a chance to surprise.
The Celtic management will be targetting Matchdays 2, 3 & 4 to accumulate points. I’d like to think that a home win & 2 draws (thus five points) from those three games is achievable. Matchday 6? Possible points there, too.
Happy to wait until December the 6th to see how it shakes out.
The Press complaints authority (IPSO) has upheld Rangers fans’ complaints about the Daily Record’s reporting of police accounts of what happened outside Hampden following the cup final.
https://www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling/?id=03188-16
Once again the SMSM’s reporting of an event has been demonstrated to be untrue. The report equally reflects poorly on Police Scotland too.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914/champions-league/2016/08/26/26884522/breaking-uefa-announces-champions-league-changes
A reasonable piece on the changes which have been agreed to the format of the misnamed “Champions” League.
It is of course obscene that the top four clubs from the top four countries get automatic group entry. Countries rated 5 and 6 also get 2 automatic group places each. That’s 20 out of 32 group places unavailable to champion clubs from the other 48 associations, leaving them to scrap for 12 group stage places, alongside a couple of runner-up teams from countries 5 and 6.
There is some good news for Celtic since
a) historical achievement in UEFA competitions will enhance their coefficient (not clear to what extent), and
b) National coefficients will have no impact except for those clubs with a very low coefficient.
For the other teams in Scotland, the outlook is bleak, it seems to me.
It will be interesting to see in due course how UEFA handle the Ibrox team’s coefficient under the new rules, given the 1972 Cup Winners Cup win by RFC.
Tris
A small donation has been despatched to the SFM account as my contribution to keeping the lights on – “Where there is darkness let there be light.” I am a lurker rather than poster. Keep up the good work
NEEPHEID
AUGUST 26, 2016
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I think the main thing from the perspective of all Scottish clubs is that the concept of the “Champions Route” will remain in place. As such, whilst the Scottish Champions will still need to qualify it will be a route which actually makes it possible, if very difficult. Were that to have been removed it would be entirely possible that Scotland would be totally excluded from the CL group stages for the foreseeable future.
NEEPHEID
AUGUST 26, 2016 at 14:03
…
It will be interesting to see in due course how UEFA handle the Ibrox team’s coefficient under the new rules, given the 1972 Cup Winners Cup win by RFC.
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That sounds about right NH.
Eventually, it will fall onto UEFA’s lap to decide – officially – whether or not TRFC is a new club.
…whilst the bears ‘demand’ acceptance that they are the same club, erm but those old debts belong to someone or something else ?!
…and whilst the spineless SFA d!ddies skulk off back down the bunker until it blows over…
Re: the CL rejig.
UEFA lives to fight another day, but it’s the big boys who run the show now, and a precedent has been set.
Top 4 auto qualifiers e.g. from EPL gives the likes of ManU a better chance of being in the CL – and to keep the TV companies happy.
But what if ManU, or say Chelsea both start missing the top 4 positions in the EPL ?
Will the big boys then demand top 5 – or even top 6 – qualify automatically from the top leagues ?
IMO, it’s still one step nearer to a Euro franchise.
The ‘European Cup’ has been further devalued.
And UEFA’s control is further weakened.
Paddy Malarkey
Can’t see any email from you. If there’s a problem, email direct to sfm@sfm.scot
Paddy Malarkey
Can’t see any email from you either. If there’s a problem, email bp@sfm.scot
CL again. We can all see where its heading. The chosen few have all the power and will take it to where they want it – A Euro league. I don’t think thats where the fans want it to go, in fact I know plenty of Man City and Arsenal fans who will not be happy with that at all. They want a strong domestic league, what is football without the local rivalry, taking on those from the city next door? They can’t have it both ways tho, those invited into the CL are already outstripping those that are locked out, worryingly more so in the smaller leagues.
Celtic qualify for the CL this year, they earn say £30 million. Unbelievably, according to wikipedia the sum total of transfers in Scotland during the summer of 2015 was 3.5 million, and 3.2 million of that was by Celtic! (I find that stat very difficult to believe…..although here were a few undisclosed fees, most were free or loans). I know Celtic won’t use £30 million to buy players, but they only need to spend ~1% of that to match the rest of the entire Scottish league – leaving TRFC out of it for they live in some sort of parallel universe when it comes to transfer fees). Meanwhile in the EPL Man City paid £55 for Kevin De Bruyne. The CL fee’s are relatively small beer to a club like Man City and the EPL, but they are massively over inflating the wealth of just one single club in each and every “small” league, destroying domestic competition.
Now Celtic deserve that money, why should they get less than and EPL club for reaching the league stages? That wouldn’t be fair. But imagine Celtic qualify next year again, and the year after that….. what chance anyone in Scotland coming remotely close to Celtic after that, one year is bad enough in that respect. But if celtic reach the big boys table and join this rich breakaway Euro league, would Celtic fans want to leave the domestic game? Would you be happy to give up on travelling routinely to away games. The clubs might get richer, but the fans will get poorer. Saturday afternoon game in Milan, Rome, Madrid, Barcelona – sounds fabulous compared to Dundee or Greenock, Kirkcaldy – but you have to pay for it somehow! But then as Celtic would (and I don’t mean this in any way vindictively) be relative small fry in such a league, would the fans have the stomach for it in the first place? I’d imagine they would drift away, maybe ironically to find a “small” team to support.
I believe CL will be the death of domestic football. Unless somebody somewhere in some power has the balls too stand up and do something about it. But it might also lead to the collapse of those teams in the middle ground, too big for domestic, too small to compete with the monster clubs.
neepheidAugust 26, 2016 at 14:03
“….It will be interesting to see in due course how UEFA handle the Ibrox team’s coefficient under the new rules, given the 1972 Cup Winners Cup win by RFC…”
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UEFA’s website has this at the end of their announcement:
“We are happy that European football remains united behind the concepts of solidarity, fair competition, fair distribution and good governance..”
I have ‘joined the conversation’ on the website, with this email. (I haven’t waited to see whether it will be approved or posted. But at least one pair of eyes in the UEFA set-up will know wht I think!
This is what I wrote three minutes ago:
“The Rangers FC which won the now-defunct European CWC was itself Liquidated and lost its membership of both the Scottish SPL and the SFA.
It is still in liquidation.
A new club founded as SevcoScotland in 2012, and renamed as ‘The Rangers Football Club’ was required to APPLY as a new club to join league in order to get membership of the SFA.
I take it that, with due regard to the UEFA statement that “We are happy that European football remains united behind the concepts of solidarity, fair competition, fair distribution and good governance”, the new rule relating to “Historical success in the competition will also be acknowledged in coefficient calculation..” will NOT allow the new club (“The Rangers FC Ltd”) to benefit from the long-ago success of the now defunct Rangers?
I wonder if T’Rangers did the decent thing and informed the SFA Senderos wouldn’t be signing today so that some lackie didn’t miss the Friday night drinks waiting by the fax to rush through the papers for tonight’s game.
Tayred,
You are correct. Football, however you increase the magnification levels, look exactly the same at every stage.
The reality for the big four is that they require to have guaranteed access to the CL, but ironically, the harder they make it for non big-four teams, the more likely it is that an Atlantic League type thing will be floated.
I wonder if the diddy countries are aware of how much power they actually have, and how devastating a withdrawal by non big-four countries from the CL would be for that competition?
I’m guessing that an alternative competition might be more attractive to TV audiences in Moscow, Kiev, Lisbon and Paris than the annual incest-fest (and yes I know that’s what the OF looked like to the rest of Scotland) conducted in the CL.
Trouble is, football officials can be bought, and there are few with the integrity to pull the chain on what amounts to a runaway locomotive, and shout out “enough!”
The big delusion everyone in UEFA appears to be labouring under is that the rest of us live only for appearances from big four’s teams – a bit like the SFA one that we are all interested only in two.
TAYREDAUGUST 26, 2016 at 16:58
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I believe there will be wider competition in the future. It is only a matter of time before some sort of closed shop elite tournament is in place, and Scottish clubs wont’ get access. I believe there will be an ‘Atlantic League’ type tournament and it will be possible for a few larger Scottish clubs to play in it, while the domestic competitions remain. I genuinely think something along those lines will happen. Nothing stays the same forever.
Off for a pint now
wottpi
August 26, 2016 at 10:59
easyJambo
August 26, 2016 at 12:49
“The Committee found that the newspaper had taken insufficient steps to take care over the accuracy of the article. Given the seriousness of the allegations, and given that the unidentified source appeared to be a police officer who wanted to address criticism over the conduct of the police following the match, it was concerning that the newspaper had sought to corroborate the account only with police contacts who were not present during the alleged incidents. Additionally, the claims had been published in such a way that they gave the significantly misleading impression that they had been corroborated by multiple independent eyewitnesses. The complaint was upheld as a breach of Clause 1.”
.. and they wonder why nobody buys papers!
Last night’s first documented on Scotland’s football.
Former England Captain singing up to your knees in Fenian blood and FTP.
Same man admits he was the first Captain of old Rangers who was not a mason.
Walter Smith mentions in a round about way of the non signing catholic policy of the club.
Scotland’s open shame.
MSM given sweeties from Mr Murray so Rangers always good Celtic bad (namely Fergus)
These sweets must be like the biggest gobstoppers in the world as the smsm could not condemn Mr Murray so far in any way during this first episode.
Will it change in next 3 episodes? If it does I will be up to my knees in apologies.
Kilmarnock imply Rangers are a new club on Twitter
http://trib.al/3sxwMDv
Oh dear ..
Big PinkAugust 26, 2016 at 21:45
‘..Kilmarnock imply Rangers are a new club on Twitter’
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Yes: slowly but surely people are seeing how absolutely nonsensical is the idea that Charles Green’s creation [which does ( however questionably) have a share in the SPFL and in the SFA ]could possibly be the liquidated Rangers FC of 18-oatcake, that forfeited its share in both organisations when it was Liquidated;
and on whose behalf the Liquidator raised an appeal to the Supreme Court against a tax bill that TRFC/RIFC deny all liability for, and would produce brick-like faeces if they were told they had to pay it!
Tonight I belatedly watched the ‘Scotland’s Game’ documentary on the BBC iPlayer. Quite apart from the major issues already rightly highlighted on SFM, two particular issues stood out for me. One was the upbeat and celebratory nature of the reporting of a pitch invasion and crossbar demolition by supporters of the Ibrox club when winning a particular league title, which contrasted sharply with the SFA/Police/Media portrayal of the behaviour of Hibs fans at the end of their recent cup final victory at Hampden.
The second anomaly involved alleged journalist James Traynor describing Fergus McCann’s role in Celtic’s history. “He actually saved Celtic. Celtic would have been out of business had it not been for him and Brian Dempsey.” Now call me pedantic, but wasn’t it the very same agenda driven James Traynor who belatedly assured us that only a meaningless expendable company dies when a football club is liquidated? So Celtic, the club, would have lived on in perpetuity, wouldn’t it Mr Traynor? That’s the problem liars have……..
NEEPHEID AUGUST 26, 2016 at 14:03 … It will be interesting to see in due course how UEFA handle the Ibrox team’s coefficient under the new rules, given the 1972 Cup Winners Cup win by RFC.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
To date
TRFC have dropped 4 points in 4 games against teams from last season’s bottom six
They could only draw against Kilmarnock tonight despite 5mins of extra time first half, 6 mins of extra time in the second half and a Killie red card in 63 mins
If they keep this up they will be struggling for a top six place and will only win one of the cups if they get favourable draws in the early rounds and dubious refereeing decisions in the final. Frankly if they play against Celtic as badly as they have played so far they will get a hammering on 10 Sept
Their biggest worry however is that if they continue churning out this mince their fans will walk away as soon as their league title hopes disappear over the horizon……and that could be before Christmas
Getting a phony UEFA coefficient based on the RFC plc track record will be the least of their worries
HighlanderAugust 26, 2016 at 22:38
‘…two particular issues stood out for me..’
________
Two very good points,Highlander!
It is beyond question, in my opinion, that the BBC chiefs are determinedly fighting to preserve, protect, defend the indefensible. To be generous , that might be ‘unconsciously’.
I heard Rob McLean, before the game started, come out with ” even after only three games they are top of the league” .
And the 10.00 o’clock news had an excited newsreader describing Tavernier’s goal as if it was as heroic as, say, Watt’s goal against Barca!
The goal, as a goal, may of course have been superb.
But to present a draw as signalling a brilliant success against a superior team rather than simply report that the hard-working, workman-like Killie, down to 10 men, kept TRFC in its place, reminded us that TRFC , for all their propaganda huffing and puffing, have a long, long way to go.
No particular harm to them.
The real harm is done by the blinkered, partisan , paid-for-by-all-of-us sports hacks of the BBC. The more so if the partisanship is deliberate.
As I believe it is, at the top of the house. In amongst the ‘Establishment’.
And it is not in the least ameliorated by the wheeling-in of Celtic stooges who are happy to help propagating the Big Lie.
The Daly report got so far. Spence was disciplined. There has been no further investigation by the BBC business correspondent, or by BBC Sports, into any aspect whatsoever of the ‘saga’.
All there has been has been ‘sanitised’, PR reportage.
Where is the BBC person who has gone to the SFA to ask: is there any truth in the allegations made against you? In any of the allegations, however apparently absurd? Can you show that you are not liars and deceivers? Give us your version, with supporting evidence?
One then has to wonder:What the hell is stopping the BBC asking questions and verifying the answers ?
What else, we have to assume, but a readiness to be complicit in corruption-when it suits them, for whatever reason?
There’s some bad bugg.rs out there!
Even in old Auntie BBC.
goosygoosyAugust 26, 2016 at 23:20
‘…Frankly if they play against Celtic as badly as they have played so far they will get a hammering on 10 Sept..’
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Perhaps not!
I was genuinely shocked at John Robertson’s revelation that the Polis ‘suggested’ that no more goals should be scored, in the particular game he was talking about.
Dear God Almighty, what is worse? a football administration that is corrupt, or a Police Force that thinks it can tell sports clubs to cheat?
Of course,Robertson was talking about some years ago.
It surely could not happen now , under ‘Police Scotland?’
Or are the top brass of Police Scotland of the same stamp as the folk who administer our Football?
And that’s the damnable thing that the whole feckin ‘saga’ has brought about.
Utter distrust.
And without an investigative journalist who doesn’t eat lamb!
It gars me greet.
Well well well – from the BBC
“As Rangers pressed hard and their supporters periodically screamed what is euphemistically called their ‘songbook’ – ‘The Billy Boys’ and more were trotted out – Killie had to dig deep.”
Despite what the SMSM are told to believe
there are many other interesting games to enjoy this season – not least the Celtic v. Aberdeen game later today which I hope to watch.
As for that over-hyped fixture coming up soon: one team on a high [if not quite yet on form], and one team seeming to struggle to match their gushing press coverage…it doesn’t bode well at all, IMO.
There must be a real risk that the bears could be seriously disappointed – and turn on their manager and/or their dodgy ‘chairman’ and/or themselves – even at this early stage of the season!
All it needs is for Rodgers to acquire anther quality player – which will add further pressure on Warbs / King.
BIGSBEE
There seems to be a change of attitude to this I also seen it being highlighted in the printed press.Could the Goverment minister for sport have had a word in their shell like to discourage this. He did say ” sort it or we will sort it for you” or words to that effect after the cup final.
“Let me be absolutely clear,” he said. “The Scottish government is prepared to act if Scottish football isn’t.
Tried to edit the last post seems my iPad disnae dae that ?
Ffs it was the minister for justice that said it not sport,too early to be posting me thinks.
Tayred @16.58.
Just going back to the CL and the potential Atlantic breakaway discussed. All valid points to which I would only add that that is why I am so vehemently opposed to the colts team idea. That just smacks of a large (and it turns out heavily protected) brand wanting the best of both worlds – the local fans including the kids and fans of the future ‘captured’ watching the colts team as well as the arm chair brigade watching the big team in the supposed tournament proper.
And just on today’s ‘big match,’ since you lads are getting in your excuses for the OF (sorry can’t do smileys on phone) early I’d just like to point out that Aberdeen are also struck by injuries in key areas and have not yet quite hit top form either! 22 and counting…unfortunately.
BIG PINKAUGUST 26, 2016 at 21:45 18 Votes
Kilmarnock imply Rangers are a new club on Twitterhttp://trib.al/3sxwMDv
Oh dear ..
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7 Jul 2012 Killie’s Supporters Society are furious chairman Michael Johnston ignored their wishes and abstained from the vote that barred newco Rangers’ entry to the SPL.
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I take it MJ does not do twitter
Is the blog broke? No posts since this morning?
OK I will have a go. Thoroughly enjoyed that game with Aberdeen today. Always get a good game with them. They don’t park a bus.
jimboAugust 27, 2016 at 17:48
Everybody was out enjoying the football – great day for it 1
Our game was pretty even and I thought we deserved a draw rather than a kick in the teeth at the death Well done the Jambo travelling support – big number, no hassle .
Echo
A very quiet night, indeed.
Looking again at the UEFA stuff about the changes in the CL format, I found myself getting lost in the bureaucratic , opaque bumph.
My eye fell on this:
“A subsidiary company will be created that will play a strategic role in determining the future and the management of club competitions: UEFA Club Competitions SA, where half of the managing directors will be appointed by UEFA and the other half by the ECA.”
And a wee look at the ECA statement :
” The UEFA proposal was unanimously endorsed by the ECA Executive Board and is in line with the principles that were put forward by ECA Members..”
And a wee remembrance that Peter Lawwell is on the Board of the ECA.
And a wee question: did he ask whether the plan to recognise past European competition achievements would include allowing the honest and entirely praiseworthy achievement by RFC(IL) in the CWC to be credited to TRFC?
Given that at every opportunity Celtic players , like players of other clubs, trot out the mantra that ‘it’s great to have the ‘Old Firm’ back”, I rather think that he probably did not utter a cheep about making sure that a cuckoo club, masquerading as a club that once honourably achieved European success but has since died the death, did not get away with the masquerade.
But, man, I tell ye, see reading that UEFA site, it really would make you yearn for Brexit, if only to get away from that Napoleonic, European fascination ( oops! almost wrote fascistation) and obsession with infinitely detailed codification of rules and regulations- which no one pays any actual heed to!
Just finished watching the first part of Scotland’s game about what I would expect and pretty close to how I remember it lol.
Oh and Top Of The League for the Hibees.
Wish we could have a twenty team top tier, dare I say just like in England. 38 games. We only meet each other twice in a league season.
Never going to happen though. The thought of four Glasgow derbies is what drives it all up here. Two are more than enough for me.
And we would have two of the best clubs in Scotland back up (HIBS, Dundee Utd.)
jimboAugust 28, 2016 at 06:52
And we would have two of the best clubs in Scotland back up (HIBS, Dundee Utd.)
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Why the need to identify the clubs? if they were recognised as two of the best then everyone would know what you are talking about. I think this goes to the heart of the issue within Scottish Football, the people who run the game believe it can only succeed if we have certain teams.
Both teams are not currently two of the best or they would be in the top league, in fact, one of them is already falling behind early in the season and could struggle to get out of there in the next few years. I would agree they are definitely two of the best in a 20 team top league setup but not sure that is what you meant, I think that means they deserve to be in a higher league and I disagree with that.
I would have said, “two of the biggest clubs”, simply because I believe they are, no matter which league they currently ply their trade within. I base that purely on the number of supporters, of course you could look at many other factors like history or potential to win competitions. I think most people would state without fear of contradiction that Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee Utd, Hearts, Hibernian & Rangers are the biggest clubs in Scotland. But are they the best?
I would say, No!
I would also love to have those 2 teams back in the same league as Celtic, but only if they earn the right through winning games. In saying that, I would also like to see a bigger league with only 2 games against the same teams.
MADBHOY24941AUGUST 28, 2016 at 09:51
I suspect Jimbo meant best because of their, er, shared heritage. They are where they are based on performance.
Apparently the Sunday Post is running a story this morning that the SFA has demanded of BT Sports that Chris Sutton is told to stop criticising Referees. What an utterly outrageous demand if the story is true.
upthehoopsAugust 28, 2016 at 10:23
‘..Apparently the Sunday Post is running a story this morning that the SFA has demanded of BT Sports ..’
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Yes,uph. Here it is:
“Shut up Chris Sutton: Scottish referees go to war with BT Sport over personal criticism of whistlers
Written by Danny Stewart, 28/08/2016
BT have been told to muzzle outspoken pundit Chris Sutton following showdown talks with the Scottish Football Association.
Representatives of the television broadcasters met with SFA Head of Refereeing John Fleming on Friday at their request.
They voiced their concern at the sudden withdrawal of co-operation by Craig Thomson in the St Johnstone v Celtic Premiership game eight days ago.
It is the custom and practice of Scottish officials to co-ordinate kick-off times with BT’s outside broadcast director to work in with television scheduling and advertising.
On this occasion, though, Thomson, declined to do so.
That was because he was furious at being labelled a “bottler” by Sutton in the course of BT’s coverage of Dundee v Rangers a week earlier for failing to send off Rangers midfielder Harry Forrester for a second bookable offence.
It is understood the personal nature of the criticism left Thomson disappointed, and that he then contacted the SFA to ask if the co-operation was mandatory for officials.
Having been told it was not, Thomson went ahead with his protest, and the match kicked off a minute early.
It looks set to be the catalyst for change, with the SFA having signalled to BT in Friday’s meeting they would be prepared to formalise the current voluntary arrangement –provided they give assurances commentators will keep criticisms to football issues.
BT is now having in-house discussions about the situation, and it is anticipated an agreement will be struck in due course.
The SPFL are in the middle of a four-year deal with both BT Sport and Sky, believed to be worth around £15m per season.
Sutton – the former Celtic, Chelsea and England striker – has hit the headlines on several occasions already this season because of his forthright opinions.
The latest example came on Friday night when he said he felt Rangers would not win the upcoming Old Firm match on September 10 because their centre backs were not good enough.
Or, in his words: “horrendous”. “
Chris Sutton is only saying what some other people think.
Craig Thomson did “bottle it” in not sending Harry Forrester off. He should have had a second yellow earlier and the third one was a straight red if anything. Thomson saw both tackles clearly and did nothing about either.
The centre backs he was talking about really aren’t good enough. Look at the Rangers’ fans’ forums, they think it as well.
Just the latest example of arrogance from the SFA, they have now decided to try to ban freedom of expression.
Madbhoy,
Hard to argue with the logic of your response. I did actually think twice about naming Dundee Utd. and Hibs. But it is a personal thing, I have a big soft spot for both teams. Maybe ‘best’ was not the most appropriate word to use. I also thought about Falkirk, St. Mirren, Raith Rovers.
I have empathy for fans of other clubs who rarely win anything. They turn up week after week and are just happy for a win.
I remember a poster of another site, a Dundee Utd fan, and how he felt when Celtic bought their best players, and then got relegated last season. He was gutted.
Over the years I have seen Celtic selling our best players time and again. But at least it is usually to England. We don’t have to suffer the pain of watching them line up against us the next week.
UPTHEHOOPS
Darryl Broadfoot@DarrylBroadfoot@scotzine Having attended the meeting, absolutely bollocks to say anyone was asked to ‘muzzle’. Fact Danny never bothered to ask says it all
theredpillAugust 27, 2016 at 06:50 BIGSBEE There seems to be a change of attitude to this I also seen it being highlighted in the printed press.Could the Goverment minister for sport have had a word in their shell like to discourage this. He did say ” sort it or we will sort it for you” or words to that effect after the cup final
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The word I’m hearing is that civil servants who advise Ministers are not so sure the excuse used not to interfere ie. FIFA will sanction the game, has quite the same fear factor now that FIFA itself is so discredited.
There will become a tipping point when the more the nonsense and avoidance of their responsibilities the SFA/Clubs add to the scene, the government NOT interfering will become a vote loser and interfering will be welcomed.
A wee letter to your MSP stating you believe Scottish Football is corrupt, what do you intend to do about it, might speed up that day
If I heard correctly yesterday, I believe a full 45 minute (?) interview with Fregus McCann, extracts of which are being used in the Scotland’s Game TV documentary, is being broadcast on the BBC Scotland Sportsound radio programme. Possibly Monday night.
I think it should be of interest to Celtic fans and other fans alike.
My guess is that there will be no similar up to date interviews with SDM or DCK. I would like to think the BBC maybe did asked but got a polite ‘no comment’. (I’m not ruling out Charles Green popping up though – he loves the spotlight
)
Sometimes it is what is not said that provides us with the full picture and an indication where the truth lies and where the guilty sit.
wottpiAugust 28, 2016 at 14:04
If I heard correctly yesterday, I believe a full 45 minute (?) interview with Fregus McCann, extracts of which are being used in the Scotland’s Game TV documentary, is being broadcast on the BBC Scotland Sportsound radio programme.
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I saw this on the BBC website just now- http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37204507
Fergus McCann: Man of logic, reluctant saviour of Celtic By Richard Wilson
Listen to the full interview on BBC Radio Scotland’s Sunday Sportsound from 12:05 BST.
I note it is being reported Joleon Lescott may be signing for AEK Athens
If it comes to fruition the player seems fit and healthy and willing to move some 2200 miles from his Manchester home he was so attached to just the other week.
Given all the conflicting stories, will the SMSM follow up on the real reason he failed to sign for T’Rangers after all the hard work put in by Warburton and McParland?
I don’t know f the Jambos guys will be in accord , but I thought Willie Collum had a very good game yesterday, best performance I’ve seen from him .
“I don’t know f the Jambos guys will be in accord , but I thought Willie Collum had a very good game yesterday, best performance I’ve seen from him .”
That seems to be the consensus view. That it is treated as an earthshattering event probably reflects how abysmal his normal level of performance is.
TONY
AUGUST 28, 2016 at 12:33
Darryl Broadfoot@DarrylBroadfoot@scotzine
Having attended the meeting, absolutely bollocks to say anyone was asked to ‘muzzle’. Fact Danny never bothered to ask says it all
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Well Darryl, that suggests to me that the matter was discussed at the meeting.
The referee appeared not to carry out his remit & in consequence, a person employed to give his opinion did just that: he opined.
We’ll never know how the referee in question was marked for his performance in the Dundee game & whether he received constructive criticism from the Referee Development Manager (or someone else).
What we do know is that he was allowed to referee a high-profile, televised match the next weekend & behaved in a petulant, unprofessional way towards a broadcaster that puts a seven-figure sum into Scottish football, apparently to spite one man. It appears (although it’s difficult to be certain, because of the SFA’s ‘veil of secrecy’ over refereeing matters) that they are defending him & his actions.
Perhaps the Referee Development Officer could ask one of several MBAs on the sixth floor at Hampden to explain causality to him?
While he’s at it, the RDO could ask why a FIFA rated referee either failed to see, or perhaps saw & chose not to act on, several incidents in another high-profile, televised match this weekend…
Across town. Rangers benefactor Dave king finds himself up against it. Now either unwilling or unable to compete financially , the promise of a £30m splurge is starting to look empty
Davie Provan August 28 2016.
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STARTING TO LOOK EMPTY
After years of moaning about their club having a deficit of 3:00 pm Saturday kick-offs due to having to satisfy the demands of the all powerful TV companies you would have thought Celtic fans would have supported Craig Thomson’s little protest of giving BT a wee kick in the baws.
Maybe not!!
wottpiAugust 28, 2016 at 21:21
‘…Craig Thomson’s little protest of giving BT a wee kick in the baws…’
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Kicking-off a minute before the camera-men were cued to roll ( if that’s what happened) doesn’t seem to be a big deal, but the ‘little’ protest was apparently big enough to annoy BT.
Would there be costs to BT , arising from significant re-scheduling of adverts and/or later programmes?
Apologies if I’m a bit late to the party, but this is the first chance I have had to sit down at my Laptop since watching the game on Friday night.
A couple of things struck me…
1. The Rangers defence is dire – ’nuff said
)
2. I think the real reason that Barton is in the SPFL rather than the EPL is that his legs are gone. I’m fairly certain that he was chasing the Killie loon in the centre circle leading up to the goal and just stopped as he couldn’t get close. He couldn’t even finish 90 minutes (although that may be because he got clattered
3. If Krancjar needs that much time and space to do something based on his cameo, he’s simply a luxury player who will come on when the game is won and showboat for the fans. Nae use when you need someone to put a decent ball into the box under pressure
4. Well done Killie! I thought it was a really good performance by a team with quite a lot of youngsters.
The over-riding thing that really sticks in the craw though is the constant false press about Rangers. It is a MASSIVE insult to teams such as Aberdeen and Hearts (and obviously Celtic) to say that Rangers are serious title contenders. They have yet to play any of these teams, and are struggling against teams that they would be expected to beat.
I’m keeping everything crossed that Celtic give them a sound hiding and maybe that will temper all the nonsense in the SMSM for a while…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/08/28/english-football-league-to-consider-celtic-and-rangers-for-inclu/
Another ‘Old Firm’ move to England article .
What the clubs and probably the fans are desperate for.
Dont think it will ever happen but you never know.
I certainly have zero interest in Aberdeen playing in any league out with Scotland
JOHN CLARKAUGUST 28, 2016 at 21:59
Would there be costs to BT , arising from significant re-scheduling of adverts and/or later programmes?
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Given the millions they are sinking into the EPL and the Champions League and the pittance to the Scottish game who gives a flying ****?
I think they can bear it, this once.
BILL1903AUGUST 29, 2016 at 09:12
The article talks about the ‘Old Firm’ joining the new Fifth division.
To my mind that means start at the bottom and work your way up.
That does not fit in with the business plan for Celtic or T’Rangers.
At an outside push joining the English Championship may be attractive but anything less will be a non starter.
Back to the drawing board I’m afraid and await the same story surfacing in a few years time.