A Guest Blog for TSFM by Auldheid
It has been some six months since we drew readers’ attention to documents that should have been provided by Rangers administrators Duff and Phelps in March 2012 to Harper MacLeod who acted on behalf of the then Scottish Premier League to investigate the use of side letters and employee benefit trust payments made by Rangers from the inception of the SPL in July 1998. You can read the previous blogs/correspondence for background at
- http://sfm.scot/scottish-football-an-honest-game-honestly-governed
- http://sfm.scot/an-honest-game-convince-us/
- http://sfm.scot/an-honest-game-convince-us/https://sfmarchive.privateland.net/it-takes-two-to-tangle/
In the latest letter below sent to Harper MacLeod and SPL Board members on 5th September 2014, you will find the story of what happened when the LNS Decision was delivered to the SPL Board and how the withholding of those same documents not only meant The Commission was misled from the outset in its terms of reference, but how the SPL Board were also incorrectly advised as a consequence of the same concealment.
It is a matter of some regret that secrecy, concealment and non-accountability continues to be the order of the day, not only in Scottish football but in the media coverage of this particular part of its history, but if this series of blogs does nothing else it will bring out the truth not only about the use of ebts but the deceitful attempts thereafter to try and minimise the damage caused. The Inaction will also stand as an indictment against all those responsible in the game and the media who cover it.
Letter to Harper MacLeod
Dear Mr McKenzie
We write further to our letters of 19th February, 29 March and reminder letter of 18th May 2014 to ask if the SPFL are now , after studiously ignoring for 6 months the correspondence and evidence provided, going to reconsider their position in respect of the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission and Decision of 28 February 2013?
In the detail of our letter of 29 March we suggested that It may be prudent to wait for the results of HMRC’s appeal to the UTT concerning the regularity or otherwise of ebt payments made under the MGMRT arrangement before embarking on any premature decision on the integrity of the LNS Commission Decision with regard to the true nature of the REBT payments being concealed from it.
The UTT have ruled and we know that payments under the MGMRT ebt arrangement are, for the time being and until the Court of Sessions re-examine the case at some future date , “lawful” or “not irregular” in tax terms.
However convenient as that may be to put off addressing the wider issue of the true nature of the MGRT ebts used by Rangers, it is no reason in terms of the LNS Commission, not to examine the effect of the concealment from yourselves as commissioners and the SPL of ebt payments made from 2000 to 2002/03 under the REBT arrangements to Tor Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer which were already ruled irregular by a separate FTT investigating the use of the same Discounted Option Scheme by Aberdeen Asset Management.
We remind you that in the earlier undated letter sent on 19th February we provided irrefutable evidence that
- Yourself, acting as the investigating agent for the SPL, was not provided with all the documentation you requested on 5th March 2012
- That documentation clearly demonstrated that in the case of two players named on the Commission list (Ronald De Boer and Tor Andre Flo) payments were made via an irregular ebt mechanism that subsequently rendered them subject to tax which HMRC has been trying unsuccessfully to collect since May 2011, a year before the commissioning process commenced.
- That in both cases side letters concealed from both football and tax authorities were a feature, whilst later relevant documentation revealing their true irregular nature was not provided as directed by yourselves to the Commission itself.
It is now our firm contention that
- The findings of Lord Nimmo Smith from paras 104 to 106 of his Decision that no sporting advantage accrued must be set aside where now known irregular payments have occurred. Using Lord Nimmo Smith’s argument sporting advantage had to accrue from season 1999/2000 to 2002/03 and the SPFL need to address that truth and consequences for our game to move on.
- Whilst it is unclear which SPL/SFA rules would have been breached by making irregular payments, it was not the rules the Commission was directed to examine as, according to the Lord Nimmo Smith Decision para 88 “ There may be extreme cases in which there is such a fundamental defect that the registration of a player must be treated as having been invalid from the outset “
- Payment by irregular means clearly constitute such a fundamental defect and so an extreme case. These payments should not have been conflated with other payments which are for the time being not irregular and to allow an investigation to stand that wrongly treated them under the same rules as the Commission did for regular payments would be a clear miscarriage of justice caused itself by apparent deception of the Commission by those whose very behaviour it was commissioned to investigate! (If we were using lay man terms we could say that the SP(F)L clubs and their supporters were and are being treated like mugs by those governing our game.)
On the matter of that apparent deception we can even go further on its impact. It is a fact that the SPL never made any public announcement as a Board of acceptance of the Lord Nimmo Smith decision. There was one individual statement but no official SPL Board announcement.
We understand that the matter of making an appeal was raised by the SPL Board on 28 Feb 2013 during a telephone conference meeting, not a face to face one, to discuss the most serious issue ever facing Scottish football and that a decision was delayed for 7 days by which time the date for lodging an appeal was about to end.
During the discussions by e mail some Board members expressed dissatisfaction at the token nature of the punishment for what Rangers had been found guilty of (basically misregistration of players) but also concerns about how no sporting advantage had been obtained through the use of ebts with side letters.
The Board were persuaded by your good self that Rangers had a sound argument that no sporting advantage had accrued. The Board were told that Rangers in effect had said that if the EBT details were required to be disclosed, the reason they did not disclose them was because of an error by Rangers in understanding what was required to be disclosed and that in any event they had secured no competitive advantage from not disclosing since the tax position would have been the same whether they disclosed to the SPL/SFA or not.
Given our opening points we suggest that during the investigation had you had in your possession the withheld evidence we supplied in our letter of 19 February 2014 (and notwithstanding the point re different terms of reference resulting) you would have been able to demonstrate the flaw in this argument to the SPL Board when they were asking your advice on the legal position in early March 2013.
It is difficult to accept that there was an error in understanding that side letters should not be disclosed as part of player registration when our supplied evidence shows that in 2005 Rangers deliberately concealed the existence of side letter for De Boer and Flo from HMRC.
Far from suggesting an error in understanding, this suggests that Rangers understood that to reveal the existence of such letters would remove the tax advantage that ebts gave them and that this advantage depended upon side letters being kept secret from authority and that includes football authority, lest informing them alerted HMRC to their existence. The QC advice contained in the withheld documents is that this deliberate concealment in 2005 demonstrated Rangers true intention of putting cash in the hands of player as part of their remuneration package.
It is also clear that revelation of these particular side letters and their circumstances would indeed have changed the tax position since HMRC have billed Rangers for the tax due on the payments to De Boer and Flo.
HMRC have not done so for Moore because the absence of a side letter puts the tax due on that transaction outside the extended time limit rules that allowed them to pursue payment for Flo and De Boer, but regardless of this and regardless of whether it was notified to the SFA, Moore was paid by an irregular means not available to other clubs..
The questions for yourself Mr McKenzie is had you been in possession then of the information supplied by TSFM would you at the time of investigation been in a better position to either refute the case Rangers made in their defence or to advise the SPL Board that the evidence of deliberate concealment from HMRC in 2005 of what transpired to be irregular payments, gave the SPL Board reason for entering an appeal?
Did the very absence of that material, which was not your fault, prevent you from briefing the SPL Board in a way that you might have done had you had all the evidence to hand?
We think the original evidence supplied and the questions raised now as a result of more fully appreciating what was hidden from the then SPL Board (and so SPL clubs) in March 2013 requires that the SPFL conduct a new cleansing investigation into :
- The apparent deception by Duff and Phelps of the SPL led Commission ,
- Why the SFA President, Campbell Ogilvie, did not advise or correct Lord Nimmo Smith or The SPL and
- The implications of the use of now revealed irregular payments by Rangers FC during seasons 1999/2000 to 2002/03.
This letter has been sent by e mail to the current SPL Board members and also by mail or e mail to the then Board Members who, whilst no longer in position might have their own views on what needs to be done on this issue to restore integrity to the very processes Scottish football relies on to ensure fair play.
Re the Ticketus hearing. I wonder who the others are in the case.
Ticketus and another (anr). Could this be the party who made the investment in Ticketus that bought the future STs.
Similarly Whyte and others (ors). I could take a guess at any of Aiden Earley, Gary Withey or Paul Betts.
I note Graham Spiers on Twitter lauding ex-Glasgow Herald Editor Harry Reid who is retiring from his current position as a columnist with the paper. I am disappointed in Spiers, especially given the views of Harry Reid when writing for the Rangers Standard only two years ago. Refer to link below.
http://www.therangersstandard.co.uk/index.php/articles/rfc-politics/136-rangers-protestantism-and-scottish-society
easyJambo says:
September 27, 2014 at 10:03 am
Ticketus and Whyte back in court on Monday.
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Is this another appeal by Whyte?
If so could be intersting….if I remember rightly the last judge was less than complimentary about Whyte’s grounds for appeal and I think the description “Micawberism” was used.
Whyte may have to come up with something better this time and maybe a bit more detail of the Ticketus episode will come out in court.
An amusing take on some of the issues currently facing the Celtic support
http://celticunderground.net/statement-on-changing-hamilton-kick-off/
easyJambo says:
September 27, 2014 at 10:03 am
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Ticketus and Whyte back in court on Monday.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/court-lists/list-chancery-judges
COURT 30
Before MR JUSTICE ARNOLD
Monday, 29 September 2014
At half past 10
INTERIM HEARINGS LIST
HC12F03282 Ticketus LLP & anr v Whyte & ors
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Ticketus must be aware of comments made by Whyte about his actual long-term plan, which was actually a short-term gamble. They must also be aware of the discussions between Whyte and Green and the many others who pop up on the CF recordings. You’d think all the behind-the-scenes planning to get a debt-free same club out of it all must cause them some mild irritation.
Ticketus must also be aware of the huge same-club propaganda campaign endorsed by the media, SFA and football authorities (by their silence) and by TRFC themselves. You’d think Ticketus could make a good case to have the original deal honoured. Why shouldn’t they get their slice of the pie?
scapaflow says:
September 27, 2014 at 12:40 pm
An amusing take on some of the issues currently facing the Celtic support
http://celticunderground.net/statement-on-changing-hamilton-kick-off/
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Indeed, and yet more evidence (at least with the kick off issue), that fans who actually get off their backsides to attend games are bottom of the food chain. With the commitments I have it will be touch and go whether I can make this early K.O.
Overall the article, although humorous, is right in terms of the Celtic support feeling hacked off these days…not that it should be of any concern to fans of other clubs of course!
Someone was asking if Phil was re-potting his geraniums 🙂
Seems he’s done with that, if he ever was in the first place. Interesting read indeed.
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/a-troubled-realm/#more-5100
I really wonder where TSFM is heading when I see posts complaining about the kick-off times for Celtic matches. If any Celtic supporters who are inconvenienced or aggrieved enough by this to take action could I suggest they either contact the club direct or raise their concerns on a Celtic fan site.
My heart bleeds when I read about the difficulties people will face getting across Glasgow to attend Celtic Park because of the time and date changes.
Perhaps we should all consider the difficulties faced in Africa by people infected by Ebola in getting to even a rudimentary medical facility – that is getting things in perspective in my book. And let’s not forget the horror unfolding in the Middle East where minute-by-minute survival and not the kick-off time of a footie match is uppermost in peoples’ minds.
I think it’s time for some to get a life and btw I see nothing humorous in the article quoted. As to the living wage issue – when death becomes the norm then a living wage ceases to have any relevance let alone importance
Danish Pastry says:
September 27, 2014 at 6:40 pm
Someone was asking if Phil was re-potting his geraniums 🙂 Seems he’s done with that, if he ever was in the first place. Interesting read indeed.
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I’ve read it – but don’t have a clue what it actually means perhaps you can explain.
ecobhoy says:
September 27, 2014 at 6:50 pm
1 1 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
September 27, 2014 at 6:40 pm
Someone was asking if Phil was re-potting his geraniums 🙂 Seems he’s done with that, if he ever was in the first place. Interesting read indeed.
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I’ve read it – but don’t have a clue what it actually means perhaps you can explain.
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Why would you want me to try to explain it? Phil has a twitter feed where people are responding and his own blog where questions can be asked. I didn’t find it particularly obscure or cryptic.
Eco I enjoy your posts, but if you want to put everything into a global perspective then what are we to discuss?
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/a-troubled-realm/
Question for “Auldheid”? Have you had any reply from Harper McLeod to your letter of 5th September? If not, is there any further route open to you to consider, or does their silence tell it’s own story? They are hoping that you just go away.
ecobhoy says:
September 27, 2014 at 6:50 pm
4 1 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
September 27, 2014 at 6:40 pm
Someone was asking if Phil was re-potting his geraniums 🙂 Seems he’s done with that, if he ever was in the first place. Interesting read indeed.
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I’ve read it – but don’t have a clue what it actually means perhaps you can explain.
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Well there’s this nasty little bombshell for starters…
“The RIFC board are now aware that Charles of Normandy has options on another two million shares”
bailemeanach says:
September 27, 2014 at 7:34 pm
Eco I enjoy your posts, but if you want to put everything into a global perspective then what are we to discuss?
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Celtic kick-off times I would assume.
ecobhoy says:
September 27, 2014 at 6:50 pm
4 1 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
September 27, 2014 at 6:40 pm
Someone was asking if Phil was re-potting his geraniums 🙂 Seems he’s done with that, if he ever was in the first place. Interesting read indeed.
===============================================================
I’ve read it – but don’t have a clue what it actually means perhaps you can explain.
#####################
Well there’s this nasty little bombshell for starters…
“The RIFC board are now aware that Charles of Normandy has options on another two million shares”
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As a non-shareholder in Rangers I’m afraid I don’t really care. I trust that this information has been communicated to the AIM Authorities along with the necessary proof.
Will it make the slightest difference to the final result? I really doubt it.
However, Raid on Entebbe is about to reach it’s climax so I’ll concentrate on that!
Eco
There was a good bit more to the underground post than complaining about kick off times. In among the complaints there was not one syllable complaining about the lack of Celtic v Rangers fixtures, or a desperate longing for the “occasion”
As for What’s happening around the world, I’m sure everyone has a view, and by comparison what we are discussing is trivial, but, this a bloody football site!
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 27, 2014 at 8:27 am
“…Example, the latest comment
‘the cancer will grow.’”
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Just to be absolutely clear,RiB, this was a reference to the cancer of corrupt Football Administration at national governance level, and NOT at all to any version alive or dead, of a particular football club or of the supporters of any club.
As we have seen, and are seeing, in UEFA and FIFA and various national Football Associations, there is plenty of scope for corruption.
It is a shame that our own little national Football Authorities have given us cause to cause to believe that the seeds of corruption may be sprouting at Hampden.
They must not be allowed to come to full flower, but require to be eradicated, before Scottish Football can be restored to health and vigour.
As I hope you may be, too, after you have your wee break from the blog!
scapaflow says:
September 27, 2014 at 8:31 pm
As for What’s happening around the world, I’m sure everyone has a view, and by comparison what we are discussing is trivial, but, this a bloody football site!
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Well said Scapa. We are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. Sadly, also, in a most ungracious and dismissive manner tonight, IMO.
ecobhoy says:
September 27, 2014 at 8:17 pm
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bailemeanach says:
September 27, 2014 at 7:34 pm
Eco I enjoy your posts, but if you want to put everything into a global perspective then what are we to discuss?
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Celtic kick-off times I would assume.
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perhaps we should stick to such heavy matters as state aid? We are all aware of the wider issues on planet earth, but here we discuss planet Scottish football. And kick off times do irk fans, as trivial as you may find that
I would assume Scottish football? I believe TSFM has set out the aims of this forum quite clearly and personally I try not to stray into other areas. No doubt I have failed on many occasions, but I really do try.
Neither Ticketus nor any other party will ever sue TRFC or RIFC for the debts of what was RFC PLC regardless of how often or whether they claim to be “Rangers” because they are not the same legal entity. And it does not matter if the football authorities say it is the same “club” or if the directors say it is the same or if the fans claim it is the same. The law does not give a damn what the world of football thinks or does in its own little closet. You cannot become liable for someone else’s debts by erroneously claiming to be them anymore than I can become guilty of crimes committed before I was born by today admitting to be Jack the Ripper.
Can’t believe that no-one has noticed the changes on the site. Maybe it’s a post referendum depression that has set in ?
🙂
Madbhoy
You can only lose what you have gained, no more and no less
TSFM says:
September 27, 2014 at 9:41 pm
___________________________________
I think I did last night and posted to say so 🙄
OK, TSFM, you’ve had a right go at me over the past couple of days. Fair enough – now tell me how many times RIB has posted and when?
ekt1m says:
September 27, 2014 at 7:44 pm
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Question for “Auldheid”? Have you had any reply from Harper McLeod to your letter of 5th September? If not, is there any further route open to you to consider, or does their silence tell it’s own story? They are hoping that you just go away
======================
Now that you ask 🙂
To my surprise a response was made on 18th September but I only checked the account a week later on 24th.
There is a draft reply being mulled over by TSFM, so folks should get an update in next few days once it has been sent.
Separately and before the HMcL reply was received a number of journos were contacted by TSFM posters with hard copy evidence and asked to check out the story.
No reply from those sources yet but that might be story in its own right.
Thank you DP for the initial link to PmcG’s latest (,http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/a-troubled-realm “.
If I am reading it aright, it puts Laxey Partners on the side of those who seem to be going for the long-term, rather than a quicker cut-and-run Admin/Liquidation route to making a killing.
Wouldn’t that be kind of unusual for LP? I feel that it would be.
So, if Laxey Partners were touting for investment in RIFC plc, it could only have been to try to increase their ‘nominee shareholder ‘ vote share in order to strengthen their hand in pushing for quick exit, rather than increase their support for the status quo!
If they failed to find that investment, then so also, if Phil’s sources are reliable, did the ‘opposition’.
Which would leave the game as it is, with the Easdale voting rights block the largest single block. And that leaves LP still with the task of winning over 2 or 3 of the other ‘over 3%’ blocks.
I daresay they’re working on it.
But we need some input from our finance people here! Or at least I do, because that world, sadly, is very much removed from my experience and knowledge.
Bears need to take control
mtp
Auldheid says:
September 27, 2014 at 10:19 pm
‘…a number of journos were contacted by TSFM posters with hard copy evidence and asked to check out the story..’
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A thousand pardons, Auldheid: I had meant to respond to your request for volunteers to send the ‘file’ to journos.But I carelessly missed the boat, I’m afraid.
But I’m glad that volunteers came forward.
And I’m all agog to see what kind of reply you got from HMcL.
TSFM says:
September 27, 2014 at 9:41 pm
‘…Can’t believe that no-one has noticed the changes on the site.’
——-
Looks as if you may have mastered the art of introducing change seamlessly and without fuss! Bottle that, and you will make a fortune in ‘change management’ ( or whatever the current phrase now is) 😀
Campbellsmoney says:
September 27, 2014 at 9:37 pm
‘..Neither Ticketus nor any other party will ever sue TRFC or RIFC for the debts of what was RFC PLC ‘
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But: it is at least remotely possible, legally, for the whole D&P Administration to be adjudged to have been fraudulent, and nullified as a matter of law, leaving the assets firmly in the legal control of BDO as liquidators of RFC(IL).
Interesting to speculate what would actually happen if there was evidence enough to satisfy a Court that parties to an Administration had criminally conspired to run a rigged sale of the assets of the entity in Administration!
Could be a good plot for a civil law John Grisham-like novel!
Haywire says:
September 27, 2014 at 10:13 pm
OK, TSFM, you’ve had a right go at me over the past couple of days. Fair enough – now tell me how many times RIB has posted and when?
_________________________________________________________________________________
You got me on the first sentence … and the second one.
No idea what you are talking about in sentence one, and I don’t understand the relevance of your question – especially since you could get the answer from the comments pages themselves.
John Clark says:
September 27, 2014 at 10:40 pm
TSFM says:
September 27, 2014 at 9:41 pm
‘…Can’t believe that no-one has noticed the changes on the site.’
____________________________________________________________________
Who are these people? 😉
Biggest eye opener for me in Phil’s piece tbh is that BP, marg and HH, all in at the start remember, so presumably rangersness in some form, wanted liquidation but the supposed vultures in suits wanted a nice long term plan and sustainability. Strangerer and Strangerer!
Jean.
I still don’t think anyone’s noticed 🙂
Great Scot!, I think I just noticed.
How did you manage that and still get my shortcuts to work?
John Clark says:
September 27, 2014 at 10:53 pm
14 0 Rate This
Campbellsmoney says:
September 27, 2014 at 9:37 pm
‘..Neither Ticketus nor any other party will ever sue TRFC or RIFC for the debts of what was RFC PLC ‘
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But: it is at least remotely possible, legally, for the whole D&P Administration to be adjudged to have been fraudulent, and nullified as a matter of law, leaving the assets firmly in the legal control of BDO as liquidators of RFC(IL).
…
———
Campbellsmoney was no doubt being gracious in not quoting my naive post in his reply, but the point you make JC has been a subject of discussion. Might it be the only thing that can get Whyte off the hook? Well, apart from his 5088 claim having genuine substance?
Btw, on the SSB podcast a very decent intervention by Jim Delahunt as Huge Keevins was perorating on the abject decline of Scottish fitba due to the demise of the only rivalry that gave newspapers … er … fans anything to get excited about. Delahunt was quick to counter that there was no malaise in Edinburgh, Dundee or Aberdeen. Bravo to JD for pointing out that oor game is much more than the Axis of Apathy (Keevins’ perceived, that is).
URL re-direction
I caught a wee snippet from Radio Clyde yesterday which will strike a chord with many on here. Hugh Keevins was once again promoting the view that only a strong Rangers in the top league can ‘save’ Scottish football. There are many questions that arise from this view, but the most pertinent for me is what constitutes a ‘strong’ Rangers? In my view it simply means Rangers winning the league far more often than Celtic – how that will ‘save’ the Scottish game is beyond me, and while we’re at it, save the game from what, exactly? The best part of the conversation was when Jim Delahunt pointed out to Hugh Keevins people from the East side of the country clearly don’t concur with his view. The bold Hugh paused momentarily, then countered with ‘well…most people live on the West side of the country! Where do you even start with that!!!!!
TSFM
I see the change. Good work and within a few days as well. I assume the protocol is not to disclose what has changed and instead let each find it out for herself.
scapaflow says:
September 27, 2014 at 8:31 pm
Eco
In among the complaints there was not one syllable complaining about the lack of Celtic v Rangers fixtures, or a desperate longing for the “occasion”
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The proof of the pudding will be in fan turn-out and I’m not as convinced as some about the level of Celtic fan antipathy towards the fixture.
But in terms of how many Celtic fans are longing for the return of the ‘Old Firm’ I would say it’s currently an unknown factor.
There is obviously the possibility of cup draws this season and the Premiership next season if Rangers are promoted. The numbers of Celtic fans who turn out at Home, Away, or Neutral venues will then be clear.
From 1995 onwards I took the personal decision to stop attending or watching Old Firm games and have never regretted that because IMO they have little, if anything, to do with football. My position remains the same wrt any future fixtures involving Celtic and Rangers.
I think it’s up to individual supporters to decide what their decision is on this issue. However it possibly won’t be that long before we have actual proof as to whether the ‘Old Firm’ has died or not and I know quite a few Celtic supporters who can’t wait for the clashes for varying reasons.
Sadly I think a lot of Celtic supporters will turn-out and that’s up to them. I also know that the term ‘Old Firm’ will remain because it’s in the financial interests of the media and clubs to promote it.
A lot of Rangers and Celtic fans also regard it IMO as some kind of perverse mutual bond signifying a connection that goes beyond a local Glasgow Derby and transcends into a World Spectacle. They are welcome to each other and I will be happy not being in their company or associated with them or their mutual need for self-justification.
John Clark says:
September 27, 2014 at 10:22 pm
If I am reading it aright, it puts Laxey Partners on the side of those who seem to be going for the long-term, rather than a quicker cut-and-run Admin/Liquidation route to making a killing.
Wouldn’t that be kind of unusual for LP? I feel that it would be.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
If theres a contest right now (which I doubt) its between Spivs who exploit UK law and Spivs prepared to break UK law
………with only one of the groups willing to be named and continue living openly in the UK
Or put another way
Between Spivs who fear the Loonies and Spivs who don`t
In the current context this might suggest a battle between those willing to sell TRFC now for £1 conditional on stadium rental and onerous contracts
versus
Those willing to not only do that but also to liquidate TRFC as soon as next seasons ST income has been collected thus creating outrage among the support and setting off the Loonies
i.e. The argument is mainly about timing the Admin/Liquidation
,,,,,,,,,,
Personally I think they are all in it together and the big remaining prize is to shaft the 25% minority shareholders by legally diluting their holding to peanuts
I see the next stage being an orderly pre pack Administration as soon as cash starts to run out from which the UK Spivs would set up an asset rental deal, endorse the legality of the onerous contracts and sell on to Bottom Feeding Spivs who will introduce innovative but dodgy routes to further exploit the gullible
Hi everyone, been on holiday so not posted for a while (damn, he’s back…who said that?).
I see the ‘Scottish football needs (The) Rangers’ and ‘Celtic supporters can’t wait for an OF match’ propaganda is still with us, or, at least, being pushed in all directions by those who have an interest in it’s resurrection.
Now I’m pretty certain that all TRFC supporters would love it to return, and, despite their own hatred of the term ‘Old Firm’, revel in seeing it (over)used it in banner headlines throughout the MSM. While I can’t speak for Celtic supporters, I’m pretty certain the only thing, by a long way, that they’d look forward to is singing the new songs they’ve prepared regarding the death of RFC. Not one, I dare to say, will look forward to anything to do with the match itself, and probably not even to singing the old songs and chants that made the old fixture so ‘colourful’ before it’s death. It will be all about reminding the supporters of the new club that they are a new club and, I hope, making it clear that there is definitely no such thing as the ‘Old Firm’. It would be great to think, with more than just the Scottish media watching, the Celtic support could orchestrate songs, chants and banners in such a way (inoffensive to anyone ie no swearing nor sectarian content) that no excuse for blocking it from the TV coverage could be found, making valid points (the truth) about the death of RFC and the complicity of the SFA, SPL and all the individuals involved.
The opportunity to highlight the reality of this ‘need for Rangers’ is the only thing that would make a return of, let’s call it the ‘Rangers, Celtic match’ or the ‘New Glasgow Derby’ (the old one being Celtic v Partick), worthwhile – a start to what Scottish football truly needs – honesty, and the realisation that what’s dead, remains dead!
Allyjambo says:
September 28, 2014 at 11:21 am
I see the ‘Scottish football needs (The) Rangers’ and ‘Celtic supporters can’t wait for an OF match’ propaganda is still with us, or, at least, being pushed in all directions by those who have an interest in it’s resurrection.
Now I’m pretty certain that all TRFC supporters would love it to return…
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This is the bit I don’t get. I have racked my brains and can’t recall any media outlet ever suggesting Rangers miss Celtic and that Rangers fans are desperate for the fixture to return. There has been plenty suggesting Celtic and their fans feel that way, and that anyone saying otherwise is a liar. It’s almost as if Celtic and their fans are the bad guys in all of this.
I can see why fans of neither club get really hacked off with the whole thing.
upthehoops says:
September 28, 2014 at 12:46 pm
Totally agree with you, uth.
I suppose, in a way, the media just presume the TRFC supporters will all be looking forward to playing the top clubs in the Premiership, and particularly Celtic, as was the case with, in relatively recent years, Gretna, Ross County, ICT – and will still be the case with Annan and Elgin supporters.
There is a difference, of course, in that the supporters of those clubs, and the media, have no difficulty with the identity of those clubs, nor of their ‘rightful place’ in Scottish football.
First time I’ve seen a dot Scot domain in action.
Braw.
We are all dot Scots 😀
ecobhoy says:
September 27, 2014 at 6:44 pm
I really wonder where TSFM is heading when I see posts complaining about the kick-off times for Celtic matches. If any Celtic supporters who are inconvenienced or aggrieved enough by this to take action could I suggest they either contact the club direct or raise their concerns on a Celtic fan site.
My heart bleeds when I read about the difficulties people will face getting across Glasgow to attend Celtic Park because of the time and date changes.
Perhaps we should all consider the difficulties faced in Africa by people infected by Ebola in getting to even a rudimentary medical facility – that is getting things in perspective in my book. And let’s not forget the horror unfolding in the Middle East where minute-by-minute survival and not the kick-off time of a footie match is uppermost in peoples’ minds.
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I think most posters on here are already aware of and indeed some will be active in doing what they can to help the plight of people in Africa and the “middle east” but I also think the same people have every right to bring up a point that without doubt has an effect on Scottish football?
To a lot of posters kick off times will be much more important than say discussions about unused mineshafts close to Celtic park, in fact I would think for most posters that the crisis in Africa and the genocide in the middle east is more important that the unused mineshafts close to celtic park but this is a football related forum and that’s what we generally discuss.
spanishcelt says:
September 28, 2014 at 6:42 pm
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The discussion of kick-off times to suit TV scheduling is IMO a legitimate subject for discussion on TSFM.
On the issue of the specific change to kick-off at Parkhead next weekend wrt the issues surrounding the half-marathon I stated that if anyone felt aggrieved then they shoulkd: ‘Either contact the club direct or raise their concerns on a Celtic fan site.’
That is still my opinion and I won’t be changing it. Others, as usual, can do and say whatever they like because that is their right.
Sometimes however IMO it’s worth the effort to retain a balanced perspective re the importance of Scottish football in terms of a wider non-football world view otherwise we can all end-up looking more than a little insular and petty.
I should point out that the importance of the mine-shafts is not that they are ‘unused’ but that they and an extensive network of disused underground workings exist beneath Westthorn despite the Land Bear Lunatics claiming they don’t,
Thanks for that TSFM, didn’t even notice it had been made available.
I wonder if any ‘fitba clubs or even governing bodies have either?
ecobhoy says:
September 28, 2014 at 8:52 pm
That is still my opinion and I won’t be changing it… Sometimes however IMO it’s worth the effort to retain a balanced perspective
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Intransigence Eco. Still didmissive and ungracious. Poor show.
ecobhoy says:
September 28, 2014 at 8:52 pm
‘.. if anyone felt aggrieved then they shoulkd: ‘Either contact the club direct..’
——–
I can categorically assert that Celtic are no great shakes in the customer service department.
I have had no reply from Mr Peter Lawwell, CEO of Celtic plc, to a letter of mine of 23rd August, or to two ‘recorded delivery’ reminders sent to him since then. (About a matter of more immediate financial importance to me than alterations in matchtimes or half-marathons).
I am sending a letter tomorrow to Mr I.P. Bankier, Chairman of Celtic plc, to bring to his attention this basic rudeness and lack of civility in his administrative officers.
I am not anybody special, ‘just’ a punter, but I’ll be damned if I let anyone of any rank in any business, Celtic or not, treat me with disdain without making an issue of it.
Or let them keep money of mine without providing the goods for which I paid the money.
jean7brodie says:
September 28, 2014 at 9:12 pm
Edit: dismissive!
A daft kick off time, game on the Tele and a mere championship match but 14800 turned up at Tynecastle today. Why? Discuss!
wottpi says:
September 28, 2014 at 11:02 pm
‘…. but 14800 turned up at Tynecastle today. Why? Discuss!’
————–
And it was Ryder cup singles day as well!
That was a pretty impressive attendance, and perhaps is indicative that the German model of Football Club and League structure has captured the minds of Gorgie.
Is that a useful, relevant point to make, d’ye think?
John Clark says:
September 28, 2014 at 9:13 pm
ecobhoy says:
September 28, 2014 at 8:52 pm
‘.. if anyone felt aggrieved then they should: ‘Either contact the club direct..’
——–
I can categorically assert that Celtic are no great shakes in the customer service department.
I have had no reply from Mr Peter Lawwell, CEO of Celtic plc, to a letter of mine of 23rd August, or to two ‘recorded delivery’ reminders sent to him since then. (About a matter of more immediate financial importance to me than alterations in matchtimes or half-marathons).
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I assume that this is the issue you have posted about previously wrt IIRC some American friends who wanted to see Celtic play one of their CL ties at Murrayfield.
Yes my advice would be the same but I don’t normally advise contacting the CEO of any company over such a relatively minor issue – not in terms of the annoyance to you or your friends I would explain – but in relation to the duties of the CEO of any large company.
So in your case I would have advised that normal channels should be followed and additionally perhaps an email to the fan rep. I actually find that going straight for the top gun can often be counter-producitve for a variety of reasons usually connected with the mechanics of a company’s customer complaints process.
However on any issues involving money owed I very swiftly initiate a small claims action at my local Sheriff Court and that usually resolves the situation to my financial satisfaction. I have invariably found that trying to get anything else by way of a genuine apology from most companies ends-up a waste of my time and with little or no satisfaction.
I may not be remembering your complaint correctly as I paid it very little attention as it seemed to be more of a personal issue and some kind of screw-up with tickets which has happened to me with Celtic a few times over the years but I have to say that I have always managed to resolve any issue amicably and fairly easily with no need to take legal action.
However perhaps it might be time for you to take the legal route and I’m sure you’ll find the civil side Sheriff Clerk or one of their deputies very helpful in ensuring you complete the relevant form correctly and understand the process.
ecobhoy says:
September 28, 2014 at 11:35 pm
‘…So in your case I would have advised that normal channels should be followed.’
——–
Thank you,ecobhoy.
I have some experience of the way organisations work. I know that letters addressed to ‘The Manager’ or ‘The Secretary Of State’ or whatever are, in the main, never even seen by the addressee. They are routinely handled by secretaries, or PAs.
I therefore, of course, do not expect a personal reply from either Lawwell or Bankier.
But I do expect a reply. And if none is forthcoming from their minions, I will increasingly make an issue of it. Including, as you say, considering a ‘small debt’ action!
On this blog, we have spoken repeatedly about ‘integrity’.
By any definition, a company which simply ignores its customers , whether as a deliberate policy or as a consequence of very shoddy administration, is lacking in ‘integrity’.
I have a complaint. I have written. I have not had an acknowledgement. ( The question of whether I have had satisfaction is neither here nor there at the moment)
In my book, that marks the administration at Celtic as being not terribly customer focused or as being very badly run in their admin section.
Whatever the reason, it pisses me off.
About the Ticketus hearing tomorrow, I hear that it will only be about arranging dates for a hearing.
But I’d love to be there, to find out who the various parties are.It’s always interesting ( he says from his ‘VAST’ experience! 🙂 ) to hear Counsel say ‘My lord, I represent ( or I appear for) so-and-so, and my learned friend for so-and-so.’
But maybe they get away with just saying ‘others’!
I remember, (I think!) away back hunners of years ago (it now seems) when few of us had anything like the knowledge we now have, that SDM was said to have a connection with Ticketus, and was Whyte’s puppet-master, and the falling-out of thieves etc etc.
Oh, to get to the real facts!
And ( I was listening on radio 4 this evening to the revelations about collusive interest rate fixing in the Interest Rate and Derivatives Market by the money men who outgun national governments)how little of the real facts we know about handfuls of dirty skunks (not ‘banks’ or ‘financial institutions’ but dirty, cheating INDIVIDUALS a la the SDMs and Fred Goodwins , the Imrans, the LPs, and all them rotten sods in the world of high finance!
Or am I being over-dramatic?
wottpi says: September 28, 2014 at 11:31 pm
A daft kick off time, game on the Tele and a mere championship match but 14800 turned up at Tynecastle today. Why? Discuss!
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All the dynamics are there to encourage fans to attend.
The bad old days of a debt laden club and the negativity that goes with it has gone.
The club was relegated as a result of that financial mismanagement, but the fans accepted it as Hearts problem and have galvanised themselves into doing some thing about it.
The club now has a plan to take it forward. The Foundation of Hearts (a united fans group) sourced the funding to get the club out of administration (from Ann Budge – a Hearts fan herself) and agreed a transition to fan ownership, subject to ongoing pledges from the fans. Over 8,000 fans signed up to handing over a minimum of £10 a month.
However the key thing is having a successful team on the park playing attractive football. That more than anything else will keep fans turning up.
Ann Budge made the decision to recruit Craig Levein as DoF, who in turn decided to replace the previous coaching team and bring in young and forward thinking coaches. There were many that doubted the wisdom of letting Gary Locke go, but it has proved to be the right decision.
We already had a good crop of youngsters at the club, who got themselves battle hardened in the relegation season. Those youngsters have been supplemented by bringing in a number of experienced pros and other talented young pros who may have not quite made it elsewhere.
There is a togetherness within the squad and they are being worked hard with up to three sessions a day training, whether it is tactical, technical or conditioning. The result is a team that has a lot of talented players who play to a system that encourages players with skill and pace.
The fans have responded with more than 12,000 ST sales, hence the crowd numbers we have seen at Tynecastle this season. I don’t think that anyone would have thought that 15,594 would attend a game in the second tier against Cowdenbeath, but such is the positive vibe around the club at the moment, anything is achievable.
The down side of the impact of a few disappointing results has yet to be tested, so I think we will all have to wait and see how that pans out. But for the moment the Hearts fans are behind the players, the coaches, management and the Board, hence the demand to attend matches.
Hope this works Seems Mr Masterton has a wee cash problem:
https://twitter.com/minoguetom/status/516312508001701888
wottpi says:
September 28, 2014 at 11:02 pm
A daft kick off time, game on the Tele and a mere championship match but 14800 turned up at Tynecastle today. Why? Discuss!
______________________________________–
I think Easyjambo has, as usual, provided an excellent answer to the question. I would add, however, that we now have, at the top of the club, someone who has watched the club she supports from amongst the real supporters, not the businessmen, for many years and is now using that experience to connect with the real supporters without talking down to them, a mistake that successive owners, probably of all, or most, clubs have made. I think the ‘near death experience’ is a big factor in the great support the club is now enjoying and it’s joined by the feel-good factor that good football and good results provide. That’s a pretty heady combination.
Perhaps it’s time that the beaks at Hampden took a look at what’s happening at Tynecastle (and other forward thinking clubs), and asked themselves if there might be something for them to learn, and to pass on to other clubs, in an effort to modernise the Scottish game. Even if they just took the idea of creating a feel-good factor about Scottish football might be a good idea. Probably a bit too radical for them, though, especially as upping the game, without a ‘strong’ Rangers, doesn’t fit in with their agenda.
Allyjambo says:
September 29, 2014 at 8:15 am
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Mate, If my e-mail ‘conversations’ with Darryl Broadfoot are a measure of forward thinking and pro-activeness at the SFA, just don’t even consider progress.
If you have the audacity to even contemplate asking questions of them you are treated with suspicion……………then ignored.
Hopefully the responses to Resolution 12 will be the crack in the dam that will start the process to get rid of the whole shooting match.
Bawsman says:
September 29, 2014 at 8:27 am
Totally agree with what you say, and getting rid of such deadwood would be phase one of any modernisation of our football governance.
As has been seen at Hearts, when the old model doesn’t work, or has failed, then a complete clear out of the old ways is required and a totally new model put in it’s place. For an example of what happens when the old ways are replaced by the same old model, look to Ibrox.
The models used by the SFA and the league body (no matter what name changes it had) have stayed the same, with the blinkers remaining firmly in place, despite the odd ‘change’ over the years, mainly because the desired end result has never changed.
The demise of Rangers provided an opportunity to change and update Scottish football. It was ignored in favour of trying to return to the status quo.
Perhaps the blinkers actually came off – to be replaced by eye patches!
High Court of Justice Today
Crooks vs Crooks and Other Crooks
Justice?
mtp
It’s pretty telling that the current CEO at the SFA was on the boards of both Rangers and Hearts as they set course for terminal decline……….maybe he’ll score a hat-trick?
For any Celtic supporters who are worried about getting to Parkhead on Sunday might I suggest they can check with: http://www.greatscottishrun.com/travel-information/ for reassurance 🙄
I’m sure all Celtic supporters will be aware that the Hamilton match switch to the Sunday wasn’t dictated by TV scheduling. Rather by Celtic’s Thursday night Europa League match against Dinamo Zagreb with the extra day to recover being normal practice.
Sunday for me personally has always been a better day to watch Celtic than Saturday but I realise it can be disruptive for many other supporters. However it’s an inconvenience I think most are prepared to suffer to watch their team play in Europe. Long may it continue 😆
Allyjambo says:
September 29, 2014 at 9:09 am
The demise of Rangers provided an opportunity to change and update Scottish football. It was ignored in favour of trying to return to the status quo.
……………….
What do you mean by that?
Putting Rangers out of the Scottish League
Putting Spartans in their place
…………………..
As a Rangers fan over the many years your club and others have benefited from a travelling support (and Celtic’s)filling your grounds(not so much now) paying over inflated prices as well. In fact some clubs have charged more from the visiting support than their own.
I just cannot get round the fact that any country would want to throw out one of its major clubs or basically end its existence.
In fact,I would say only in the petty, parochial world of Scottish Football would people want this to happen.
Why should it be that Murray’s reign with EBT’s, a small part of Rangers history, mean that Rangers should be thrown out of Scottish Football?
Hearts attendances have been magnificent, the way they have structured their club is fantastic, to hear their coach say that footballers will never learn unless they put in the hours was music to my ears. I wish it was us, but under this Board we are hamstrung.
I’ll give you the reason why the attendances are up, just like Rangers (tho board issues have put a stop to that) when your club is in crisis, there is a cause, the support rallies behind their club.
I’ll venture further, Rangers went to Third Division and it was accepted, that and the other actions taken are enough.
We are working our way back, it is time for Scottish Football to get back to football matters. Can we back, to be honest, unless if these faceless investors cannot be rid of, I doubt it?
But that is our problem, not others.
I await the moral outrage, but I have said my piece.
I’m off
ecobhoy says:
September 28, 2014 at 8:52 pm
Sometimes however IMO it’s worth the effort to retain a balanced perspective re the importance of Scottish football in terms of a wider non-football world view otherwise we can all end-up looking more than a little insular and petty.
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But who decides which “off topic” issues should be discussed?, I have seen loads of posters being chastised for going “off topic”
The whole world is a basket case with nuclear issues, financial problems, starvation, genocide, corrupt ruling parties, America and UK willing to get into bed with whoever gives them the best chance of controlling oil supply and prices,, where do we start and what is deemed “retaining a balanced perspective” , there is no balanced perspective and blogs like this actually help give us an escape from the insanity of todays world. ( imo )
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 29, 2014 at 10:28 am
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“Putting Rangers out of the Scottish League
Putting Spartans in their place”
If that’s what the rules say, then that’s what should be done. Your club broke the rules on payment, and non-disclosure of payments to many many staff over an extended period of time. Your club got away with financial doping (as is the new entity) and thumbed its nose at HMRC and other creditors.
Just as well the Scottish fans stood together and refused to be cowed by the SFA/SPFL.
“I just cannot get round the fact that any country would want to throw out one of its major clubs or basically end its existence.In fact,I would say only in the petty, parochial world of Scottish Football would people want this to happen.”
SDM/Rangers did just that to Airdrie………….Karma is a bitch.
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 29, 2014 at 10:28 am
If you look back on the archives of this site and RTC the myth about the ‘Old Firm’ filling stadiums has been debunked many times.
There is no doubt a visit from a big club can help those in the lower divisions but the loss of a couple of visits per annum by T’Rangers has been made up in other ways by the Premiership clubs.
Be in no doubt the people who benefit from T’Rangers being in the top flight are T’Rangers.
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 29, 2014 at 10:28 am
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You have the right to support your club as you see fit. Obviously contrary voices have the same right to disagree.
The big problem of course is that many people wish to see Rangers removed permanently from Scottish Football – many couch their aim and others don’t even bother and the Ibrox civil war adds to the explosive mix.
I have no hatred towards Rangers fans in general although I have no time for scum support of any football team and that inludes my own club Celtic.
I also have no personal need for any apologies from individual Bears over some of the issues that have taken place surrounding Rangers. But I do believe that ALL Scottish Football fans – including Bears – require an apology from the ‘suits’. That apology has to be detailed especially wrt what the authorities actual aim was.
Will we ever get it? I very much doubt it and the complicit SMSM are the biggest barrier to getting to the truth. At best I think the authorities now realise that social media has changed the game forever and they will never again get away with their secret deals without a storm of internet protest.
But as time passes I more come to the belief that the main problems affecting a large chunk of Scottish Football support lies in the cowardice of the Scottish Parliament in effectively tackling serious underlying societal problems which emanate in the football arena.
Football hatred isn’t the cause of the problem but merely a symptom of the cultural/historical differences which sadly IMO got a fresh boost in the recent referendum campaign.
We need courageous and principled politicians – not frightened about losing votes – to actually expose and eradicate the underlying issues. Since near the end of the Referendum I have been doing more posting on this issue as there are obvious constraints on TSFM to do this.
I should make it clear that I have no problem with the TSFM stance on this but, for me, the heart of the problem lies deeper than football and to concentrate on football and its administration won’t provide the major chanmges required.
I should make it clear that my view isn’t affected by the result of the referendum vote. It’s a cross-party issue and it should be remembered that Scotland already has a separate legal system and Football Administration from England, Wales and NI.
We have all the levers but our politicians so far have exhibited no appetite to use them.
However – returning to rangers: It really is down to their fans at the end of the day what kind of football club they want. At the moment Bears are their own worst enemy because of the in-fighting taking place. My hopes are with Bears who are interested in football and I wish them all the best.
But their are very strong political and financial pressures at work which wish to retain the baggage and sectarian divide. So who knows how things will turn-out.
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 29, 2014 at 10:28 am
As a Rangers fan over the many years your club and others have benefited from a travelling support (and Celtic’s)filling your grounds(not so much now) paying over inflated prices as well. In fact some clubs have charged more from the visiting support than their own.
Yeah and why do you think that is.
Every club in the country faces increased police costs because you lot cant behave yourselves.
Fact!
Rhaps,
I genuinely mean this reply to be as courteous as possible but there is no other way to say this.
Your post at 10.28 has too many factual inaccuracies and omissions, whether deliberate or not, to enable me to ignore the Sevco saga in quite the manner you appear to wish me to. I concede that the mainstream Scottish media appear to agree more with your view than mine although it is relevant I feel to highlight that the founder of this site forecast (with unnerving accuracy) that they would. That still doesn’t make me wrong though.
(Apologies TSFM that wasnt to belittle your efforts btw 😆 )