Is it time for the Sin Bin?

ByGuest Blogger

Is it time for the Sin Bin?

A guest blog by former Celtic & Scotland defender, Jim Craig


What time is this to come back?”

Dolores McCann (her Mother had been a great fan of foreign films) stood in that classic pose of the wounded woman – up to her full height and chin forward – as she glared at her husband who had just come in the front door. Before he could say a word, she gave him another volley;

 “you left the house at half-past-two for a three o’clock kick-off, it only takes you 20 minutes to get to the ground, a match lasts only one-and-a-half hours plus ten minutes for the break and you’ve just walked back in the door at half-past-seven! So where the hell were you?”.

Wayne McCann (his father liked Westerns) tried to calm her down.

“Dolores, you don’t know what it’s like at football matches nowadays ; it has changed out of all recognition; a match goes on for much longer”.

“In what way?” Dolores asked.

“Well, for a start, the players and even the managers can complain about any decision that is given against them. If that happens, the referee then goes and has a word with firstly, the two assistant referees, then the fourth official and gets their comments before he reflects on the situation. If he is still in any doubt that he made the wrong decision then he can ask the guy upstairs sitting in front of a television screen what he thinks. And, of course, all through this, the managers and players of both teams can chip in with their comments. That all adds a fair bit of time to the match”.

“Aye…but turning up at half-past-seven is still a bit over the top…is it no’?”

“Well, no’ really……you see, nowadays you are not allowed to have a drawn game, so if the match is level at the full-time whistle, there is extra time, which takes a minimum of half-an-hour”.

“The time is still no’ matching up!”

“Aye, mibbe so, if that was the end of the match. But if the match is still level at the end of extra-time, then it goes to a penalty shoot-out. I told you…you are not allowed a drawn game”.

“ A penalty shoot-out disnae take long”.

“That might have been the case at one time but because so many keepers were being accused of moving before the ball was kicked, nowadays they are strapped in to a harness which anchors them in the middle of the goal. They can only move when the foot of the guy who is taking the penalty actually touches the ball. So, after each kick, the keeper has to be put back into the harness and it all starts again. And, of course, you get the complaints from the managers and players that the harness wasnae working properly or that the officials who put the harness on didnae put it on right. That all adds up to the time factor”.

“Did you go to the pub?”

“As God is my judge, Dolores, after the match finished, I came straight here”.

“Who won anyway?”

“That’s a difficult question… there was so much noise and kerfuffle both on the pitch and in the stands, nobody was quite sure what the final score was. And the guy who usually does the announcing had gone home. Somebody said that he had a date. Anyway, if you let me turn on the radio, I’ll hear the score there. And Dolores?”


Wayne walked over to the drinks cabinet and took out a couple of glasses. “I don’t suppose you would fancy a wee drink”

We will leave the smooth-talking Wayne to his attempts to mollify Dolores and reflect on the situation. What you have just read is probably the ultimate scenario for those who wish to tamper with the current rules of football. Do I think that the game needs radical changes like that? No but I do think that some change is necessary and in one specific circumstance.

Now, I was a professional footballer for 9 years and in all that time, I can put my hand on my heart and state with complete conviction that I never pulled any other player’s jersey. Did I try to half him in two with a tackle, yes! But no jersey-pulling. And, of course, I was penalised for the challenge.

Today, though, I feel that there is a lot of body-checking and jersey-pulling going on in every match. Very often the referee lets it go and then you get the ridiculous scenario at a corner kick when all those waiting for the ball to come in are pulling and pushing, with the referee watching it and ignoring it. It is a foul, ref!

When the referee decides that an offence has been committed, then the player will be spoken to first. If he does it again, he will be given a yellow-card. The problem is, though, that the offence might possibly have affected the play in the match, whereas the yellow card does not affect the player’s participation.

If the player is daft enough to do it again, then of course he gets another yellow and will be off. Most, however, are sensible and keep the head, so they go unpunished as far as the current match is concerned. What we have to find is a punishment that affects the match in which the transgression occurred. Which means that we have to consider the sin bin.

This works very well in rugby and gives the referee a means to punish an offence a little more harshly – yet more efficiently – than a yellow card but without having to go for the ultimate, drastic – and for many unpalatable  – option of the red card. I hope it comes in soon.

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2,363 Comments so far

jimboPosted on9:54 pm - Mar 11, 2018

Homonculus,  you are an intelligent poster on here.  What DBD said was a moment in time.  Not typical.  Forgive and forget.

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armchairsupporterPosted on9:57 pm - Mar 11, 2018

I think it is also worth saying that Phil’ Blog is not the TSFM. Its purpose is quite different (although connected). Our site is indebted to Phil for his investigation and for shining a light where others are unwilling to.

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stifflersmomPosted on10:14 pm - Mar 11, 2018

Agreed. But for goodness sake, some of the stuff on the blog over there of late is questionable to say the least. Journalistic integrity is wholly dependent upon chronograph as opposed to stenograph. 

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:26 pm - Mar 11, 2018

STIFFLERSMOMMARCH 11, 2018 at 21:43
Oh dear

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stifflersmomPosted on10:31 pm - Mar 11, 2018

Phil, it’s nothing personal. Just debatable. ‘Oh dear’, that’s just lazy. 

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stifflersmomPosted on10:49 pm - Mar 11, 2018

Despite the financial gulf, did they put up a good fight today?
Do questions need to be asked about the lack of investment in the Celtic back line?
Were all five goals well executed?
Do Celtic have the upper hand financially?
Do you really care about Billy Fullerton and the KKK?
Do you really care about how much their fan base have scraped together by way of an honest fundraiser and how they spend it? 

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DarkbeforedawnPosted on11:02 pm - Mar 11, 2018

To turn things back to football. The match today from a Rangers fans point of view. 

Overall a a very good game for a neutral with lots of goals and attacking play. I feel but for bad defending we could perhaps have got something today and for me it goes down as a missed opportunity. Celtic bossed the midfield and stopped our midfield from playing. I thought Goss and Windass were particularly poor today. The first two goals were both crackers and not much the keepers could do. The young Celtic goal keeper was very good considering it was his first game and I felt he did himself proud – hopefully a good prospect for Scotland in the future. I thought the red card was quite harsh – yes it was an elbow but it was clearly not intentional and I think a yellow would have been more fair. After that Rodgers changes and the experience of Celtic really shone through and Rangers never really looked like scoring. Murty missed an opportunity by not bringing on Cummings when they were down to ten men. And the miss at the end by Moreles just summed up his season – excellent at times and then bottled it when the pressure is on. 

It was a far better performance by us and some glimmer of hope. But also shows that Celtic for the most part this season have been playing within themselves. 

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claraboPosted on11:06 pm - Mar 11, 2018

To gunnerb. 
Well that’s put me in my place. So much for respect and tolerance. (I still like you posts jimbo)!

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stifflersmomPosted on11:08 pm - Mar 11, 2018

Haste ye back. 

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rob469Posted on11:11 pm - Mar 11, 2018

I have been reading Phil’s blog for several years and his ratio of hits to misses strikes me as quite good.  There is no way I can vouch for his journalistic integrity but his record must count for something.  His writings are cleverly done and references are easily missed by the casual, or occasional, reader. 
Also as has often been stated “they don’t do irony” and Phil does it very well. 
Every day with Phil, SFM, and other sites, ensure every day is a school day, whatever the topic .  Not an original comment I know, but the information is enlightening irrespective of the source. 
I enjoy all your company whatever your point of view.   

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stifflersmomPosted on11:36 pm - Mar 11, 2018

To some extent I agree. 
Like most on here, our pedigrees stretch back to the days of RTC. My input is infrequent to say the least, however I fail to see the relevance of regurgitation and historical bigotry. Thus the posts earlier. 
RTC was borderline prophetic. Phil’s blog of late, in my opinion, have been taking aim at fish in a barrel. I’ve said before, the lens need to be refocused and that includes the reinvestment of monies gleaned from sizeable gains in recent transfer sales and Champions League renumeration. 
Is it just me?

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on11:42 pm - Mar 11, 2018

STIFFLERSMOMMARCH 11, 2018 at 22:31
Phil, it’s nothing personal. Just debatable. ‘Oh dear’, that’s just lazy. 
Of course, it’s personal.
Your problem is easily solved though, just don’t read my site.
I have been here for a couple of days and I have answered the questions of other posters.
I hope that I did so with precision and courtesy.
That was certainly my intention
However, it didn’t take long for an ad hominem tone to emerge.
That is your anonymous contribution.
I get the message and it is a personal one.
I’m out.

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stifflersmomPosted on11:55 pm - Mar 11, 2018

Phil. If you’re not up for forum debate, you can always PM. I thought that was the point of this site? Does the freedom of expression irk you so much that you have to escape the debate?
It is not personal. You have my money. I bought your books.  Would the receipts convince?

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John ClarkPosted on11:58 pm - Mar 11, 2018

DarkbeforedawnMarch 11, 2018 at 21:31
‘….Some of the posters on here ……take themselves far to seriously.’
On the contrary, Dbd.

What they take  seriously are:
the monumental cheating by SDM;

the wholly inadequate response to that cheating by the SFA;

the unbelievable nonsense of Bryson;

the utterly mind-boggling deception involved in the 5-way Agreement;

the (much earlier) mucky stuff of  the UEFA Competitions licence award to the then RFC plc;
the lack of any kind of proper ‘investigative journalism’ by the editors and sports journalists of the SMSM into all that nonsense
and, of course, the various attempts by Level 5 to divert, distract, this blog. 

Jimbo has the same freedom as I would claim and have exercised,  and as others have claimed, to go very occasionally, off topic. 

But there is being occasionally ‘OT’, and being a source of distraction by being too ready to introduce irrelevant , fan-based, sometimes ‘innocently’ triumphalist nonsense and or ‘music’!

As I understand it, we are not on this blog to express our club loyalties, but to try to call our Sport’s governance body to account for what is alleged to have been  the lying, cheating abuse of their powers in order to prevent a cheating club suffering the full and proper consequences of its cheating.

And to call out the SMSM as being,in effect, complicit in supporting the cheating and lying.

No harm to Jimbo, but I agree that his wonderful readiness to be friends with everyone plays into the hands of the deceivers and cheats, whose dearest desire is that the SFM would shut the feck up about the iniquities of the defunct Rangers and the SFA and the readiness of the SMSM to condone and support those iniquities.

There is serious stuff involved here.

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Big PinkPosted on12:05 am - Mar 12, 2018

OK folks. Getting a bit out of hand today and a couple of posts containing nothing but insults have been removed.
Jimbo: you get a lot leeway on here. Had the moderators been doing their usual job, you would have been put in moderation after ‘gutless’ jibe.
There is a forum where you can start your own OT threads, but neither those nor the main blog is a vehicle for pursuing grievances. As gunnerb says, the PM service is there for exactly that. The problem with OT stuff is not the principle, but the scale. If we can’t be sensible then we will have to start chucking out everything OT – even the odd bit of fun which as some people correctly observe, can be very entertaining.

Everyone else: please remember that it’s ok to disagree with someone, but name- calling is not.

General rule. The odd musical clip is fine in context. Religious stuff – as long as it is not argumentative or having a go at someone else’s religion – should not be posted to the main blog.

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Big PinkPosted on12:09 am - Mar 12, 2018

No problem you wanting to discuss issues, but if it’s only one poster you want to engage with, PM service is the way to go. Even better, Phil has his own forum.

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DarkbeforedawnPosted on8:07 am - Mar 12, 2018

Some pretty harsh comments against Phil. Like any journalist, Phil is only as accurate as his sources and some are spot on while others prove to be false. 

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Bill1903Posted on11:30 am - Mar 12, 2018

I’ve only seen the highlights of the Glasgow derby game with the sound down.
I don’t think i’ve ever seen a linesman shout red card like that before
It looked like an elbow to me though but surely a wave of his flag would have sufficed?

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NickPosted on11:38 am - Mar 12, 2018

Followed the various lively debates on here with interest and some amusement over the weekend.  My tuppence worth on the various subjects (which nobody has requested or wants are as follows):

– Phil Mac is an interesting character, he was certain well informed and had strong sources back in 2012 but his blog since has descended into a pantomime with so many characters like “rugger chap” and his “Ibrox boardroom mole” that it’s difficult to keep up with or take overly seriously.  He’s not had a great track record of accuracy in the last few years either so although I still read his stuff I do so now more for entertainment than as a source of news.  His blog on the Union Bears is absolutely correct in calling them out as vile extremists who need to be tackled but I also agree with other posters that his own use of extreme and unacceptable language makes him part of the problem rather than the solution.  His argument in defence of his use of words like “klan” is flimsy and self indulgent.  Hopefully Phil gives this some thought as he is technically a decent writer and has a powerful voice given his large number of followers.

– The football was excellent on Sunday and a great advert for our game.  I know the O*d F*rm term is almost like a swear word with Rangers and especially Celtic fans nowadays but that rivalry (whatever it is nowadays) is still very powerful and rather than continually focusing on the negative aspects of it we should be using it as a marketing tool for our game.

– Union Bears are given seats together by Rangers, the club know who they are and they should be banned, if they aren’t then surely the SPFL should act?

– Jimbo…you bring much needed melodrama to an oft dry forum and you are the only guy who gets more thumbs down than myself.  Stick around old chap.

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paddy malarkeyPosted on12:16 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Since you are all studiously avoiding the elephant in the room , our game against Aberdeen should never have been played – there was visible surface water down one side of the park and you wouldn’t put a dog out in that weather . I think the football authorities should contemplate a winter break .09

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PatsyPosted on12:33 pm - Mar 12, 2018

C’mon boys and girls it’s time to put your handbags away and refocus on the cheating and corruption in our game 10

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borussiabeefburgPosted on12:35 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Some of the posts here over the weekend must have been alcohol fuelled, surely?

A few personal observations. The Ibrox match might have been exciting, although not for me, as I stopped viewing these games quite a few years ago. They seem to be officiated in a different manner than those I attend live, with referees allowing far more to go unchecked, generally. Maybe things have changed, and I don’t expect other fans to agree with me.

Celtic won, and I can’t help feeling that it will take a few Celtic losses to ‘Rangers’ for the bulk of their support to get solidly behind any campaign to deal with past cheating carried out by the old Ibrox club.

Blind acceptance by the authorities (Police, Government, Football) that a large group of people can break the law (UB) is frustrating in the extreme. I’d reckon many of the participants are wee laddies, but they’ve grown into a poisonous sect which cannot in any way benefit society. Having attended games in all Scottish grounds over a long number of years and witnessed the worst excesses of hooligans and ‘casuals’, I feel uneasiness seeing this group being given a police escort/protection while they take part in illegal activities.

Remember, this group, which has been on the go for over ten years, has only been officially recognised by the King Regime at Ibrox (since 2015).

Finally, regarding the moderation of the site. I might have had cause to disagree recently with their actions but recognise the work the mods do to attempt to keep the blog on track. It’s up to them what is allowed here, and although I don’t enjoy certain contributions, it’s not my page.

What I will offer is my appreciation for these guys in keeping the machinations of the football authorities and media in a spotlight, when many supposed football minded people hanker for us to develop amnesiac tendencies.

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John ClarkPosted on12:36 pm - Mar 12, 2018

NickMarch 12, 2018 at 11:38
‘..but that rivalry (whatever it is nowadays) is still very powerful and rather than continually focusing on the negative aspects of it we should be using it as a marketing tool for our game.’
I’m not entirely sure that a religiously/racist based rivalry is good for anything, Nick, except for the bank balances of those who make money out of exploiting it at a safe arm’s length ( like football club directors and media moguls).
The desire to continue to profit from  that rivalry caused Scottish Football to prostitute itself to untruth and dishonour by abandoning honesty and integrity, and continues to prostitute itself by even now refusing to acknowledge the Truth.

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Ex LudoPosted on12:57 pm - Mar 12, 2018

And relax…..

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HelpumootPosted on1:21 pm - Mar 12, 2018

– “Hibs fans came over the top and attacked our players.”
– “I rather like the song. I’d rather the fans sang The Billy Boys than resort to violence.”
– “Pedro Caixinha is the right man for the job. I knew this within half an hour of his interview.”
– “Rangers will not be affected by David King losing his appeal.”
– “We have fantastic financial support. The investor base is there.”
– “We don’t need to sell Morelos.”
– “We have agreed a credit facility with Close Brothers. The deal is a sign of the growing stability of the club’s finances.”
– “Close Brothers approached us.”
– “Its someone external coming in, looking at the business and kicking the tyres.”
How do you know when Stewart Robertson is lying? His lips move. All of the above have two things in common. None of the SMSM challenged any of them, and Phil McG challenged ALL of them. He also flagged up the Close Bros ‘credit facility’ weeks before it happened (just one major story he exposed since 2012.)
Thank you, Phil.

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StevieBCPosted on1:54 pm - Mar 12, 2018

No intention of talking about the quality of Scottish referees…again.
But, linesmen?
MARCH 12, 2018 at 11:30
…I don’t think i’ve ever seen a linesman shout red card like that beforeIt looked like an elbow to me though but surely a wave of his flag would have sufficed?
That’s what I thought as well Bill1903.

I thought a linesman was supposed to flag for an infringement / offside etc.
The flag is to catch the ref’s attention, [and they can now speak via headsets.]

As far as I am aware, the linesman has no place to instruct the ref – and in a shouty / demanding way – to send off any player.  
It is for the ref to decide whether a booking, a red card – or no action at all – is required.

[Happy to be educated by other Bampots if I have this wrong.]

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bigboab1916Posted on2:07 pm - Mar 12, 2018

“There are many, many thoroughly decent people out there who are Rangers fans. I’m sure most people on this forum would agree with that.”
I think first you have to define rangers, if you mean there are decent folk that accept liquidation means liquidation and that the rangers they still follow is only a version of rangers but not the same liquidated version then obviously there are. But if you live a lie and deny its existence then you cannot really be a decent person, for the lie is the core of the corruption that distinguishes good from bad.

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NickPosted on2:42 pm - Mar 12, 2018

JOHN CLARKMARCH 12, 2018 at 12:36

John, I’m no fan of either Glasgow side so I’m perhaps not best placed to comment but can we not promote the Old Firm (or the new Old Firm) as the great sporting rivalry which it undoubtedly is?  Perhaps in the past it was a racial/religious derby but given most Celtic and Rangers fans are not religious nowadays I think the distasteful stuff which comes from both sides is simply an attempt to wind up the other lot.  
You’ve got a game between two teams with incredible fanbases, beautiful stadiums and who have some great players.  It is a good advert for the Scottish game in that respect and it must look great to overseas viewers who I doubt will understand or care about songs decrying “h*ns” or “f*nians”.  
I’m not saying we should market our game purely on this match either as in my opinion the real charm of Scottish football comes from our array of historic small teams and the unique characters but such a strong rivalry between two massive clubs could be a very powerful tool for getting people interested in our game again.

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bigboab1916Posted on2:53 pm - Mar 12, 2018

“Perhaps in the past it was a racial/religious derby but given most Celtic and Rangers fans are not religious nowadays I think the distasteful stuff which comes from both sides is simply an attempt to wind up the other lot.”
really why then do they want to protect and fight for the right to have their orange parades claiming religious culture whilst walikng in their Sevco tops and singing from the Ibrox hymn sheet.The only reason there are catholics at ibrox was due to UEFA, speaks volumes.

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John ClarkPosted on3:14 pm - Mar 12, 2018

NickMarch 12, 2018 at 14:42
‘…but can we not promote the Old Firm (or the new Old Firm) as the great sporting rivalry which it undoubtedly is? ‘

Not until Scottish Football recognises and acknowledges that

the RFC of 1872(nowadays Rangers 2012 plc(In Liquidation):

-has gone forever,

-is not playing football in the Scottish Professional Football League and cannot therefore add to the legitimate honours and titles it had collected during its life,

-certain honours and titles won over many years through cheating must be stripped from its record

and that the many supporters of the departed club are now, and have been, supporting a club that has no footballing history going back further than 2012.

When the record books record all that ,and Truth and Integrity are restored to our sport,  then might be the time to develop a healthy sporting rivalry not predicated on religious animosity or racism, but on the beautiful game as a sport, not an occasion for balaclava-ed boys to act like eejits.

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DarkbeforedawnPosted on3:20 pm - Mar 12, 2018

“then you cannot really be a decent person, for the lie is the core of the corruption that distinguishes good from bad.”

Bigboab, I take offence to that. I am a Rangers fan who believes the club is the same club I’ve always followed. I gave my view on this last week, at no point trying to change any other person’s view to reflect my own. I felt I made my point with respect to everyone else, and listened to everyone else’s views on it. I won’t go into my reason’s again here (you can look back for yourself) but I don’t think it is fair to say I am not a decent person because I don’t agree with you! That’s an incredibly narrow minded, labelling, as well as offensive and disrespectful.

Whether its Phil, Jimbo, Nick of myself I can’t help but notice a growing ammount of very personal attacks on here since the weekend that seem to me to be unwarranted.

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normanbatesmumfcPosted on3:33 pm - Mar 12, 2018

To Jimbo and any of our newest club supporters who might be feeling a bit down in the dumps today, try watching this;

Never fails to make me chuckle….10

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bigboab1916Posted on4:10 pm - Mar 12, 2018

“Bigboab, I take offence to that. I am a Rangers fan who believes the club is the same club I’ve always followed.”

That is the problem whilst there is people who believe it is the same, these same club believers have not lobbied their same club management to pay back the creditors who also believed it was the same club but have been told otherwise.

i would imagine if one were to take a poll and ask people, when you invested money into your club, was this the believe you had when you parted with your money, would you have did this with your money had you been told it was really a company, a so called seperate entity you have invested in who at anytime could screw you and you have no recourse, i believe the answer would be why should i invest in this.

Maybe you have a personal reason for wanting to believe its the same club but i am sure you know deep down it is not the same club in as much the same way as you know and believe there is no tooth fairy or Santa Claus.

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AllyjamboPosted on4:12 pm - Mar 12, 2018

NickMarch 12, 2018 at 14:42

Well, after a day of acrimony I have to congratulate you on that humorous post, irony at it’s best. 

There is a reason why the SMSM want to recreate that abominable cabal, and it’s got nothing to do with the good of Scottish football, unless one considers that ‘Scottish football’ is whatever team plies it’s trade at Ibrox.

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DarkbeforedawnPosted on4:22 pm - Mar 12, 2018

BB, I’m not getting into a debate on OC/NC again as my views and reason’s are clear for all to see earlier in this blog. But I will say that no, deep down I still think we are the same club. I won’t try and convince you otherwise, but I don’t appreciate being told what I must believe.

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paddy malarkeyPosted on4:53 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Same feeling others get when reading hearing about a liquidated club surviving unscathed .

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DarkbeforedawnPosted on5:03 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Paddy, I agree and I wouldnt try and convince you otherwise or judge you because it wasn’t what I believed.

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jimboPosted on5:21 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Do you know what would make my perfect on line world?

Folk like EJ, AJ, DBD, JC, Paddy, Jean, Bally, Chris, and a million others who love football and their clubs.  So too Auldheid who comes over on here as a neutral expert , but on other sites has a deep love of Celtic.  something to be proud of.  Not a hint of hatred..0402

AJ especially, you remind me so much of my pal Andy – a Jambo through and through but not a bad fibre in his soul or his beautiful wife.  Not that there should be a bad fibre.  Worked in the big hoose in Edinburgh for too many years to realise that.  Great people.  But your not getting away with anything Celtic are still the greatest team in the universe.  I am a religious person, and Ghod told mhe!

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bigboab1916Posted on5:26 pm - Mar 12, 2018

DarkbeforedawnMarch 12, 2018 at 17:03
Paddy, I agree and I wouldnt try and convince you otherwise or judge you because it wasn’t what I believed.

I would say to you there is nothing for you to try and convince anyone of, the truth always remains a truth and a lie remains a lie. We know we can manipulate a lie and it can be seen as a truth but the reality is the truth will always be the truth regardless of the cover up.
I am not expecting you to debate with me as it is clearly not the same club and you know it even though you still have an attachment to what has gone. I have an infinity for music and i like pink floyd, but i know when i go to see the Aussie Pink Floyd the music is the same and the lights are the same and at times so is the graphics, but i am aware even though i have to pay for this i am not paying to see the real pink floyd, i am watching a tribute act making a fist of recreating the illusion i am listening to and watching a pink floyd resemblance .

Thats the reality for what people are witnessing over at Ibrox, they are not witnessing what was before them, there was no continuation, when it died, in fact the actors left the stage to pastures new.
Good luck to you and i hope you are happy in your support of your new club but you really do know and thats alright, but to suggest otherwise would be folly.

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tonyPosted on5:26 pm - Mar 12, 2018

what you believe and what is true are two seperate things,the club you supported as a boy are gone,it really is that simple

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jimboPosted on5:29 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Ally, just thought of that cup final.  Andy went to the game with Gretna.  Left the wife with me.  Out of respect, I was the only guy in the pub cheering on Hearts with my gloves on.  21

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John ClarkPosted on6:00 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Q.What is invincible ignorance?A.The invincible ignorance fallacy[1] is a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given.
Rangers Football Club plc was liquidated. Absolute fact.
The Rangers Fc Ltd ( formerly SevcoScotland) did not exist or become entitled to participate in Scottish football until 2012. Incontrovertible fact.
There is no getting away from it, whether in terms of Sporting law, commercial law, Company law.
It is a fact that thousands of people believe that those facts ( of Liquidation and of creation of new club) do not exist. 
Their disbelief in no way alters the fact that RFC 1872 is not, cannot possibly be, Rangers 2012 plc (IL).

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easyJamboPosted on6:26 pm - Mar 12, 2018

John Clark March 12, 2018 at 18:00

Their disbelief in no way alters the fact that RFC 1872 is not, cannot possibly be, Rangers 2012 plc (IL).
I think you got your last sentence wrong JC. They are one and the same, albeit in a different corporate form since 1899.

The Newco is TRFC Ltd (Sevco Scotland).

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easyJamboPosted on8:36 pm - Mar 12, 2018

JC – One for your Court diary

Wednesday 14th March
Starred Motion 
A295/16 David Whitehouse v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c – A & W M UrquhartLedingham Chalmers LLP SGLD

It’s unusual that this hearing is on the Rolls for the Inner House.  I’m guessing that one party is appealing against an earlier decision of the Court.

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HomunculusPosted on8:42 pm - Mar 12, 2018

THE RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB P.L.C.27 May 1899 – 31 Jul 2012

Was renamed 

RFC 2012 P.L.C. 

And is currently in Liquidation.


SEVCO SCOTLAND LIMITED29 May 2012 – 31 Jul 2012

Was renamed



RANGERS FOOTBALL PLC16 Nov 2012 – 27 Nov 2012

Was renamed



Before anyone expresses an “opinion” the above as I understand it are simple facts, there is no matter of “opinion” involved. 

You will note the date 31 July 2012, it may be a matter of “opinion” what the significance of that date is.

You will also notice that the previous club did not have a holding company / subsidiary structure, like the new version does. In spite of what people may tell you. Again the significance of that may be open to “opinion”

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ChristyboyPosted on8:47 pm - Mar 12, 2018

There’s a lot of frustration out there. With so many cans being kicked down the road, I hope there’s a recycling depot at the end of it. Right next to the sewage treatment works. We’ve waited a long time for answers especially from the SFA and my view is the long game was always a game plan, that we become disinterested, fall apart, fall out and give up the ghost. A lot of people would love that. They never thought we’d be about this long and there’s so many people to thank for that. Obsessed? Only for the truth. 

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John ClarkPosted on9:17 pm - Mar 12, 2018

easyJamboMarch 12, 2018 at 18:26
‘…I think you got your last sentence wrong JC.’
Thanks for spotting that ,and making sense of what I was trying to say!  
I dunno what caused the slip-hope it was no more medical a matter than thinking about changing the sentence mid-stream.

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John ClarkPosted on9:20 pm - Mar 12, 2018

HomunculusMarch 12, 2018 at 20:42
‘…Was renamed RFC 2012 P.L.C. And is currently in Liquidation..’
Thank you, also, Homunculus. 19 

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John ClarkPosted on9:26 pm - Mar 12, 2018

easyJamboMarch 12, 2018 at 20:36
‘…JC – One for your Court diaryINNER HOUSE ROLLS…’
Oh, good. Thanks, eJ. 
I should be free to toddle along for that on Wednesday.

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Cluster OnePosted on9:29 pm - Mar 12, 2018

HOMUNCULUSMARCH 12, 2018 at 20:42
You may have already have read this, but on a quite evening it is always god to have fun with forms.
The 31st July was a busy day for Companies House, dealing with changes of name for two particular companies.

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HomunculusPosted on9:46 pm - Mar 12, 2018

MARCH 12, 2018 at 21:29

Including the Sevco 5088 / Sevco Scotland, rights to buy the assets debate.

Show me the Novation. 

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easyJamboPosted on9:53 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Homunculus March 12, 2018 at 21:46
CLUSTER ONE MARCH 12, 2018 at 21:29 ====================================
Including the Sevco 5088 / Sevco Scotland, rights to buy the assets debate.
Show me the Novation. 
That one could still come before the Courts in BDO’s action against the administrators.

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Cluster OnePosted on9:54 pm - Mar 12, 2018

CHRISTYBOYMARCH 12, 2018 at 20:47
0 Rate This
There’s a lot of frustration out there. With so many cans being kicked down the road,
One can that was kicked down the road is almost at an end, By my reckoning Mr king has about 15 weeks to come up with a new retail deal.
Still a lot of Sports Direct Advertisements around the ibrox stadium yesterday. Could another deal be struck? Would the fans agree? 

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HomunculusPosted on10:02 pm - Mar 12, 2018

MARCH 12, 2018 at 21:54

I remember bringing up the wording from the accounts. I’m not convinced Sports Direct will not still be involved next season. 

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Cluster OnePosted on10:18 pm - Mar 12, 2018

HOMUNCULUSMARCH 12, 2018 at 22:02
I remember bringing up the wording from the accounts. I’m not convinced Sports Direct will not still be involved next season. 
Oh Dear! wonder if there will be a march?

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John ClarkPosted on10:20 pm - Mar 12, 2018

Wednesday’s business seems to be in connection with whatever Temporary Judge Arthurson decided in November ( which I haven’t been able to find so far):
 I think I referred to this link previously  
“A copy of the Court Rolls handed to the media at the time reveal Lady Sarah Wolffe QC – an outer house senator of the Court of Session – was scheduled to hear the case involving the claim involving the Lord Advocate – her own husband – A295/16 David Whitehouse (represented by Urquharts) v Liam Murphy &c (represented by Ledingham Chambers for SGLD – Scottish Government Legal Directorate) – on November 15 2017.

However, Lady Wolffe appears to have been removed from the hearing, with no official comment from the Judicial Office or Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service (SCTS).
Claims have since been made Lady Wolffe was suddenly dropped from the hearing when it ‘emerged at the last minute’ her husband – Lord Advocate James Wolffe – was involved in the case.

A report from a source claims a second Court of Session Judge – Lady Wise QC – was then scheduled to hear the case.However, the silent replacement of Lady Wolffe with Lady Wise – has now raised serious questions as to why there are no references to any note of recusal made by Lady Wolffe – who clearly had a conflict of interest in the case given one of the core participants in the action is her own husband – the Lord Advocate.

The case then takes another turn after media reports of the hearing on Wednesday 15 November reveal a third judge – Lord Arthurson QC – eventually heard the case, and has since arranged for a four day hearing for legal arguments.”

(The comments on the full article have a kind of familiar ring to them)

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Cluster OnePosted on10:32 pm - Mar 12, 2018

JOHN CLARKMARCH 12, 2018 at 22:20
Lady Wolffe was suddenly dropped from the hearing when it ‘emerged at the last minute’ her husband – Lord Advocate James Wolffe – was involved in the case.
The last minute? why did it take them to the last minute to realise her husband – Lord Advocate James Wolffe – was involved in the case.

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easyJamboPosted on11:01 pm - Mar 12, 2018

John Clark March 12, 2018 at 22:20
I recall reading about the change of judge at the time.  IIRC the four day hearing wasn’t expected to start until 8th May.  The case referred to in the article was the action against the Chief Constable (A295/16), not the one directly involving the Lord Advocate (A413/16), although there is clearly a connection between the two cases.

The last hearing in this case (A295/16) on 18th January was subsequently heard by Lord Malcolm (who sought the agreement of counsel to him hearing the case, as his son had represented another party in a Rangers related action).  You may recall that the D&P guys were present at that hearing.  There was also a petition granted unopposed on 14th February, which may have been the request for what will be Wednesday’s hearing. 

David Whitehouse’s action against the Lord Advocate had a half hour hearing last Friday (9th March), so that has still to reach its more substantive proceedings. 

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John ClarkPosted on11:30 pm - Mar 12, 2018

easyJamboMarch 12, 2018 at 21:53
[the ‘novation’]…’..That one could still come before the Courts in BDO’s action against the administrators.’
That is the one bit of business I think I want to see debated in Court, because I would like to see and understand what the hell happened.
If the Sale and Purchase Agreement (SPA) shows that it was indeed to SevcoScotland that the assets were sold,  no probs, fair dos..
And f the deed of novation is genuine, fine. No problem (except for Henderson and Jones, who would probably not succeed in their claim!)
But if the original SPA ( is it there, can it be found) shows that it was Sevco5088 that bought the assets, and if CW has not signed any deed of novation, then perhaps there are a few questions to be asked. 
Presumably the COPFS asked those questions, which were never brought into the light of day because the case against the Administrators collapsed very early doors, in such manner as allows them to claim millions in compensation.
Yes, I do want to know what the hell happened, one way or the other.

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John ClarkPosted on11:44 pm - Mar 12, 2018

easyJamboMarch 12, 2018 at 23:01
‘..You may recall that the D&P guys were present at that hearing.’
I do indeed: and I took the opportunity of telling one of them my ‘black swan in the pub’ joke!

And, to be scrupulously fair, I think he got it in one (which, I am astonished to say, not everyone does, which is why I keep trying it out on people!)

( Needless to say, and for the benefit of the readership generally, telling a joke to a complete [in personal terms] stranger is not to be confused with ‘fraternising with, or providing aid and comfort to, the enemy.’ I hope!) 03

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jimboPosted on1:42 am - Mar 13, 2018

For GunnerB, 
I love you mate. Life’s too short.

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helpmaboabPosted on7:45 am - Mar 13, 2018

I feel a bit sorry for Jim Craig. He gets to do the guest blog and nobody talks about it.

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AllyjamboPosted on8:16 am - Mar 13, 2018

HELPMABOABMARCH 13, 2018 at 07:45
I feel a bit sorry for Jim Craig. He gets to do the guest blog and nobody talks about it.

Go back to the earliest pages of this blog and you will find it discussed there. As ever, our disccusions move on quickly when matters surrounding the game’s governance come to the fore.

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tayredPosted on8:47 am - Mar 13, 2018

I’ve been away for a while – seriously folks whats going on?

We have one poster earlier saying surely the Scottish game should be promoting the Old Firm more to bring in the cash, but then we have the inevitable build up to a game, and the tribal outpourings afterwards turning even this usually mild mannered debatery into a shambolic hatefest.

I thought ad hominem attacks were verboten here? Where have the mods been? Some shameful stuff has been written, while it seems the worst of them had been removed before I logged in.

Just goes to show, the Old Firm is a hateful thing that anyone outside the West of Scotland simply do not understand. We have a media, a football association and a government to scared to do or say anything. OR of course maybe its the other way round, the media and association (and the 2 clubs) love it, it brings money in, puts bums on seats, ensure season ticket sales – you can almost hear them rubbing their hands together with glee.

To anyone brought up outside this society it is just pathetic… absolutely pathetic. I chose not to go back to games cos I was disgusted with it all, with all this pseudo-religious guff ramping up again I’m losing interest in even checking the scores, its difficult to give two hoots about Scottish football at the minute. But of course all that matters is we get the two cheeks back into their rightful state

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NickPosted on8:57 am - Mar 13, 2018

HELPMABOABMARCH 13, 2018 at 07:45

Agree completely.  Jim’s idea is a positive and constructive one which could improve our game, weirdly given what this site believes itself to be nobody is in the slightest bit interested.

Do we want a better game or do we just want to rehash childish arguments over a club being “dead” or otherwise?  I’m not bothered either way by the way….I enjoy a childish argument almost as much as I enjoy the football. 😉
As for the sin bin it’s a yes from me.

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NCLBhoyPosted on9:15 am - Mar 13, 2018

I like the idea of a sin-bin and I think it works well with other sports. 
The main problem I have with it in football, and particularly Scottish football, is that the quality and consistency of the refereeing needs to be addressed before we bring in potentially game-changing rules/punishments.
In the game I watched at the weekend, the referee got the game’s major decision correct (IMO) but the rest of his decision making was frankly bewildering. Two footed lunges not penalised at all, no yellow for kicking an opponent, a player booked for cleanly winning a header. 
I am sure that fans of other teams have very similar examples from their own games over the weekend.
What I would like to see introduced, before the sin-bin, is a successful implementation of VAR so that the referee at least has the best chance of making the correct decision.

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helpmaboabPosted on9:18 am - Mar 13, 2018

Alyjambo March 13th 2018 at 08:16.
AJ I read all the posts on here. I was speaking comparatively and to be fair there has been much  discussion recently between a few posters which was less about football governance and more about the appropriateness of posts.

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NickPosted on9:41 am - Mar 13, 2018

NCL Bhoy

I agree with that the refereeing standard is very poor in Scotland.  That for me is one of the appeals of the sin bin idea, when they inevitably get something wrong it has less of an impact on the game with a player just off for say 10 minutes rather than the match.

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shugPosted on10:52 am - Mar 13, 2018

NICKMARCH 13, 2018 at 09:41
NCL Bhoy
I agree with that the refereeing standard is very poor in Scotland.  That for me is one of the appeals of the sin bin idea, when they inevitably get something wrong it has less of an impact on the game with a player just off for say 10 minutes rather than the match.

10 minutes or 80 makes no difference if the decision was wrong it only takes a second to score a goal.
 Robert Lewandowski scores five goals in 9 minutes | Bayern Munich vs. Wolfsburg so it’s a naw from me.

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shugPosted on11:01 am - Mar 13, 2018

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John ClarkPosted on11:22 am - Mar 13, 2018

NickMarch 13, 2018 at 08:57
‘.. I’m not bothered either way by the way….I enjoy a childish argument .’
What a fatuous remark to make, that you are not bothered by the strong prima facie cases levelling serious charges of corruption against the SFA , while you simultaneously talk about improvements to our game!
Your own words  seem to suggest that your mind runs on the same lines , to have been set in the same mould as, SDM’s and the other proponents of untruth and deceit in the running and governance of our game.
How can you not ‘be bothered’ at an actual  decade and more of cheating by RFC 1872, or by the dishonesty and cheating of the SFA in the creation of the Big Lie about TRFC Ltd being entitled to honours and titles that they never kicked a ball for, not having been  in existence to do so?
What is the point of a corrupt sport? Where is the concept of honest competition, of sporting prowess being honourably recognised? Wherein can lie any  satisfaction in claiming things to which one is not entitled? 
How empty and hollow must be the minds and hearts of those who can do so while still using words like ‘sport’.
And how rotten at the very core is a sports governance body which
-when its plan to try preserve a cheating club from proper punishment  was thwarted, could  manufacture the huge, and hugely ridiculous, lie that a brand new football club is the very same club  that was proven to have spent the last ten or  twelve years of its life engaged in sports cheating.  
and against which serious allegations have been made of  having  corruptly directed substantial sums of money to that cheating club 
Words fail me!

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NickPosted on11:34 am - Mar 13, 2018

JOHN CLARKMARCH 13, 2018 at 11:22
Words fail me!

They don’t appear to fail you though John as you’ve launched into quite the diatribe there.  My comment was a lighthearted one, I do believe humour has a place in Scottish football even when discussing serious issues.
From reading your post it’s pretty clear you hold some very strong views some of which would be contrary to my own.  That’s fine, in fact it’s a positive thing for this site.  It wouldn’t be healthy to have a discussion in an echo chamber where everyone holds the same views on subjects.
I respect and admire your passion on these subjects.

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woodsteinPosted on11:44 am - Mar 13, 2018

Normally the 5 stages of grief are (in order):-
1. Denial and Isolation
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
James does it in reverse.08

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ulyanovaPosted on12:10 pm - Mar 13, 2018

WOODSTEINMARCH 13, 2018 at 11:44
0 Rate This
Normally the 5 stages of grief are (in order):- 1. Denial and Isolation2. Anger3. Bargaining4. Depression5. Acceptance James does it in reverse.

Good spot. Although I don’t think  he did (3) or perhaps it would be more accurate to say he is not able to bargain.

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woodsteinPosted on12:47 pm - Mar 13, 2018

March 13, 2018 at 12:10
OK grovelling ? 07
Start at 26:29mins

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