A guest blog by former Celtic & Scotland defender, Jim Craig
“What time is this to come back?”
Dolores McCann (her Mother had been a great fan of foreign films) stood in that classic pose of the wounded woman – up to her full height and chin forward – as she glared at her husband who had just come in the front door. Before he could say a word, she gave him another volley;
“you left the house at half-past-two for a three o’clock kick-off, it only takes you 20 minutes to get to the ground, a match lasts only one-and-a-half hours plus ten minutes for the break and you’ve just walked back in the door at half-past-seven! So where the hell were you?”.
Wayne McCann (his father liked Westerns) tried to calm her down.
“Dolores, you don’t know what it’s like at football matches nowadays ; it has changed out of all recognition; a match goes on for much longer”.
“In what way?” Dolores asked.
“Well, for a start, the players and even the managers can complain about any decision that is given against them. If that happens, the referee then goes and has a word with firstly, the two assistant referees, then the fourth official and gets their comments before he reflects on the situation. If he is still in any doubt that he made the wrong decision then he can ask the guy upstairs sitting in front of a television screen what he thinks. And, of course, all through this, the managers and players of both teams can chip in with their comments. That all adds a fair bit of time to the match”.
“Aye…but turning up at half-past-seven is still a bit over the top…is it no’?”
“Well, no’ really……you see, nowadays you are not allowed to have a drawn game, so if the match is level at the full-time whistle, there is extra time, which takes a minimum of half-an-hour”.
“The time is still no’ matching up!”
“Aye, mibbe so, if that was the end of the match. But if the match is still level at the end of extra-time, then it goes to a penalty shoot-out. I told you…you are not allowed a drawn game”.
“ A penalty shoot-out disnae take long”.
“That might have been the case at one time but because so many keepers were being accused of moving before the ball was kicked, nowadays they are strapped in to a harness which anchors them in the middle of the goal. They can only move when the foot of the guy who is taking the penalty actually touches the ball. So, after each kick, the keeper has to be put back into the harness and it all starts again. And, of course, you get the complaints from the managers and players that the harness wasnae working properly or that the officials who put the harness on didnae put it on right. That all adds up to the time factor”.
“Did you go to the pub?”
“As God is my judge, Dolores, after the match finished, I came straight here”.
“Who won anyway?”
“That’s a difficult question… there was so much noise and kerfuffle both on the pitch and in the stands, nobody was quite sure what the final score was. And the guy who usually does the announcing had gone home. Somebody said that he had a date. Anyway, if you let me turn on the radio, I’ll hear the score there. And Dolores?”
“Yes”
Wayne walked over to the drinks cabinet and took out a couple of glasses. “I don’t suppose you would fancy a wee drink”
We will leave the smooth-talking Wayne to his attempts to mollify Dolores and reflect on the situation. What you have just read is probably the ultimate scenario for those who wish to tamper with the current rules of football. Do I think that the game needs radical changes like that? No but I do think that some change is necessary and in one specific circumstance.
Now, I was a professional footballer for 9 years and in all that time, I can put my hand on my heart and state with complete conviction that I never pulled any other player’s jersey. Did I try to half him in two with a tackle, yes! But no jersey-pulling. And, of course, I was penalised for the challenge.
Today, though, I feel that there is a lot of body-checking and jersey-pulling going on in every match. Very often the referee lets it go and then you get the ridiculous scenario at a corner kick when all those waiting for the ball to come in are pulling and pushing, with the referee watching it and ignoring it. It is a foul, ref!
When the referee decides that an offence has been committed, then the player will be spoken to first. If he does it again, he will be given a yellow-card. The problem is, though, that the offence might possibly have affected the play in the match, whereas the yellow card does not affect the player’s participation.
If the player is daft enough to do it again, then of course he gets another yellow and will be off. Most, however, are sensible and keep the head, so they go unpunished as far as the current match is concerned. What we have to find is a punishment that affects the match in which the transgression occurred. Which means that we have to consider the sin bin.
This works very well in rugby and gives the referee a means to punish an offence a little more harshly – yet more efficiently – than a yellow card but without having to go for the ultimate, drastic – and for many unpalatable – option of the red card. I hope it comes in soon.
Auldheid, I think I agree with you.
Even if there was some master plan to put David Murray back in charge with debts gone and the club still playing in the SPL, and I think that’s a stretch, it failed.
I think Whyte, Green or both may have believed they could do it, by using administration allied to a compliant SFA, SPL and SMSM. However it didn’t work.
Maybe someone has a link to it, I clearly remember Green saying (I paraphrase) if HMRC were always going to reject the CVE then why didn’t they tell us in February.
I honestly believe there was a plan for a debt free Rangers in the SPL and dominating going forward. David Murray may have know about it, but he did not intend to run the club going forward.
Other interpretations of what happened and why are available.
Whilst the last person I want back at Rangers would be Murray, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility he has had this as a bit of a game plan from day 1, even if it was just a fleeting thought at the time. Now if (and its a big if) the directors convert their loans into equity, it’s feasable that he could pick up the club with debt in low single figures (as opposed to 100m+ that it had when he sold it). Now lets please not get into a NC/OC debate again so bear with me. Murray could buy the club treated by the clubs fans and the media as being Rangers, still playing in Ibrox, next to no debts, in the SPFL and likely 2nd place in the league. That would be quite the bit of business, and I’m sure a compliant media and short term memories by the fans would mean his previous failings would quickly be forgotten.
Auldheid @ 15.39 8 March
Bang on – its about time some pressure applied to get answers re the CO investigation – its a pity some other member clubs haven’t also asked questions (or maybe they have for all we know such is the lack of transparency) .
The longer the delay , the more stench of a rodent .
HOMUNCULUSMARCH 8, 2018 at 16:08
I honestly believe there was a plan for a debt free Rangers in the SPL and dominating going forward. David Murray may have know about it, but he did not intend to run the club going forward.
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I would go as far to say the powers that be had more or less promised Craig Whyte that Rangers in the new form would be in the top league. The statements forewarning of impending disaster only enforces my belief. They seriously misunderstood the mood of the ordinary fan though and the rest of the clubs had no choice but to say no.
Homunculus
March 8, 2018 at 16:08
“Maybe someone has a link to it, I clearly remember Green saying (I paraphrase) if HMRC were always going to reject the CVE then why didn’t they tell us in February.”
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/rangers-takeover-i-m-no-villain-here-says-charles-green-1-2351602
“If this has always been their policy why didn’t they tell us this in February and March and save a lot of money and a lot of time? There are a lot of Rangers fans who have had their hopes built up for nothing.” Your memory is spot on.
HomunculusMarch 8, 2018 at 16:08
“….I honestly believe there was a plan for a debt free Rangers in the SPL and dominating going forward………
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And I have no very high opinion of the abilities of the COPFS, and I am ready to believe that parts of police Scotland leak like a sieve.
AULDHEIDMARCH 8, 2018 at 15:39
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A day late update on the petition to Celtic to get a statement from the SFA on the Compliance Officer Investigation into UEFA licence of 2011.Dear John PaulIt is nearly 6 months since the SFA announced that their Compliance Officer would investigate the circumstances surrounding the granting of the UEFA Licence to Rangers FC in April 2011 following revelations in court in June 2017, that Rangers FC had accepted that they owed HMRC £2.8million relating to tax that should have been paid well before 31 December 2010.
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The other day i said 7 month. Thanks for correction.
Re the COs investigation, I would imagine this will be an item on at least one committee agenda every time, the full SFA Board, at least one other _ Professional Game Board? & maybe some other sub committees?
I imagine also then the embarrassing noises and lowered eyes around the tables when the CO reports item comes up. (Actually I’d be hoping for outbursts of anger & frustration over the time its taking).
Seriously though, this should be an item at committees where our clubs are represented & are representing the whole football community. What are they hearing? What’s being minuted? Can anyone get copies from their clubs? I know they’ll not get details of the investigation but there must be some information about the reasons for delays, future timescales etc. If not, there should be.
As has been commented already this is taking too long for there not to be some attempt at damage limitation in play. Its a scandal upon a scandal. I don’t know how they have the nerve to dour it oot.
AULDHEIDMARCH 8, 2018 at 15:57
No I think SDM wanted out. Cgaf about the mess he was abandoning and left a carcass in the water that attracted a succession of sharks who have been well fed before DK muscled in.
SDM should be tried for crimes against Scottish football by a Judicial Panel as CW was, but he is a knight of the realm and they don’t do justice.
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If you read the Craig whyte court case. Was it not mentioned that SDM wanted out but he wanted out with his other businesses intact or something along those lines
Couple more squares ticked off in the bingo, thanks to the dependable DR;
– Murty the bestest.
– ‘Rangers’ back to where they belong.
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“Derby is a must-win for Rangers and Graeme Murty must show the world he’s fit for a fight insists Walter Smith
The Ibrox legend spoke exclusively to the Daily Record and says it’s time for the Ibrox side to show the world they are back.
…
He said: “Sunday’s game is one Rangers have to win.
“…Okay, this might be the start of Rangers coming back to being the club they were before all the turmoil“.
…
“But when Graeme took the job he had nothing to lose and it’s the same going into these games.
“If he goes and wins them then why wouldn’t he deserve the job on a full-time basis?”
…
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And by ‘turmoil‘, I think the forgetful OAP really means ‘liquidation’…?
Bad Capt Madman, it depends how much the other clubs were pushing for the CO report, or whether the suits were just paying lip service. I imagine Celtic will probably raise it, but Aberdeen and Hibs for example were against it in the first place so I can’t see anger at the meetings. The SFA will be too busy working out which exotic country to take a holiday to next.
WOODSTEIN
MARCH 8, 2018 at 17:45
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Thank you, a strange turn of phrase for him to use when he didn’t get involved until months later.
Unless the leaked documents and tapes are to be believed, and he was in it with Whyte from much earlier.
I should add to the previous point I actually back the investigation, and find it embarrassing it’s taken so long. I don’t know what they playing at. I personally think the outcome will be an acceptance that certain people deliberately misled and covered up, or at best completely messed up. All parties involved are no longer at the club or the SFA so it would be easy enough to come out, admit, apologies and strongly warn Rangers, and make sure rules are in place to never happen again. No one is calling for any nuclear action here, so why not finish it and put this whole thing behind us.
DarkbeforedawnMarch 8, 2018 at 19:38
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‘so why not finish it and put this whole thing behind us’ ???????
Nah!!!! That’s a bit like saying forget it.
DARKBEFOREDAWN
MARCH 8, 2018 at 17:08
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If the lenders converted their debt to equity they would be doing it to the value of around £20m.
Assuming that buys them 80m shares (I’m using 25p here as that is what people seem to think they will sell for), and they currently own say 25m shares, which using the same value would be worth around £6m.
So they are into the business for £26m
How much do you think they would sell that equity to David Murray for.
For a loss making business etc.
HOMUNCULUS, I guess it depends how bad they want out of it, and whether they would cut their losses and go to avoid being in charge if Rangers goes under. If they don’t believe they will get their money back by sticking around anyway, it may not take a huge amount to persuade them?
DarkbeforedawnMarch 8, 2018 at 19:38
‘… and strongly warn Rangers,..’__________________________
The club responsible was RFC of 1872, which is now dead.
TRFC Ltd had nothing to do with it, not having been in existence at the time.
It’s too late for Celtic shareholders to seek damages from the creditors’ pot, of course.
So, the proper course ( assuming irregularity is established) would be for the SFA to make restitution to the shareholders of Celtic plc who were cheated out of actual millions.
DARKBEFOREDAWN
MARCH 8, 2018 at 19:56
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Who said they wanted out, far less how badly they want out.
Do you believe the major shareholders, lenders, and their associates want out of the club.
DarkbeforedawnMarch 8, 2018 at 19:38
‘…No one is calling for any nuclear action here..’
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Don’t be so sure.
If there is the least possibility of criminality, there will be people looking for criminal charges to be brought against any administrator in the SFA or any director or officer of the now defunct RFC , who may have been instrumental in fraudulently and by deception obtaining a large sum of money through abuse of their positions of trust.
And I’ll be in the van, hoping that others would shortly thereafter be in the police van on their way to face trial.
DARKBEFOREDAWNMARCH 8, 2018 at 19:38
I should add to the previous point I actually back the investigation, and find it embarrassing it’s taken so long. I don’t know what they playing at. I personally think the outcome will be an acceptance that certain people deliberately misled and covered up, or at best completely messed up. All parties involved are no longer at the club or the SFA so it would be easy enough to come out, admit, apologies and strongly warn Rangers, and make sure rules are in place to never happen again. No one is calling for any nuclear action here, so why not finish it and put this whole thing behind us.
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I am, depending on the outcome. There are gentlemen on the current Ibrox board who were also on the board pre-March 2011, and as we now know from the court case Rangers knew fine well the wee tax case had crystallised at that point. One was the then Chairman. If they knew this was the case and still went ahead with telling the SFA it had not crystallised then they should be banned sine die from Scottish football in my view.
How to kill a story
On this day in history March 8 2012
Recently it was made apparent that 2 clubs were given advances from the SPFL, totaling GBP 300K.
Is there anything to stop the SPFL advancing TRFC GBP 1M or GBP 2M to see out this season ?
Anybody ?
Who said they wanted out, far less how badly they want out.
Do you believe the major shareholders, lenders, and their associates want out of the club.
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My personal thoughts on this? I think the Parks, Lethems etc came in with good intentions but didn’t quite grasp the state of the club and the money required to make us successful again. I think King is purely in it to try and somehow claw back some of the £20m he feels he was robbed previously. The directors are clearly either out of money or no longer willing to throw good money after bad. And as I was saying last night I don’t think it’s possible to be a fan and a good owner at the same time as they will always struggle to make the right business decisions. Just my views but I think they will either be actively seeking a way out, or would certainly consider it if it came to it.
STEVIEBCMARCH 8, 2018 at 19:23
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Couple more squares ticked off in the bingo, thanks to the dependable DR;
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And rolled out EBT Beneficiaries Bob Malcom and Graham souness to have their say on the derby game.
wonder who the smsm will roll out next wHo had an EBT
HomunculusMarch 8, 2018 at 20:06
DARKBEFOREDAWNMARCH 8, 2018 at 19:56===================================Who said they wanted out, far less how badly they want out.Do you believe the major shareholders, lenders, and their associates want out of the club.
________________________
While their hearts might say ‘stay’, I’d be very surprised if their business heads aren’t screaming ‘get out!’, and what better way to do it than to sell their shares to the ‘hero’ who caused the end of RFC? They would become legends overnight for acting as custodians of the club until that realest of real Rangers man returned to the scene (if not the club) of his crimes.
I’m not suggesting there’s any credence in the latest feel good piece in the press today, just that the only way the 3bears are going to get any of their money back is to sell, and they’d best sell to someone the supporters revere if they don’t want to face the consequences of joining the ranks of the Green and Whytes.
So let me get this right
A man who was in charge of a scottish football club that systematically CHEATED for more than 10yrs to put a football team on the park that they otherwise could not afford ,to the detriment of all other clubs in scottish football .is we are told
Thinking about putting money into the club that replaced the one he killed (although not at the wheel when it hit the wall ) .
Well, SFA AND ALL OTHER CLUBS ,what do you all have to say about that then …………….
TUMBLEWEED .
After the outcome of the UTT that man should have been hauled up and BANNED for life from having any involvement in scottish football ,whether club or clumpany .
I suppose we now understand the unbelievable reasoning from the LNS farse
what a tangled web we weave
For the record the media reported on 7th September last year that the SFA had launched an investigation into the awarding of Rangers Euro licence in 2011. It is likely the investigation started before then. It really should not be taking this long.
StevieBCMarch 8, 2018 at 20:31
Recently it was made apparent that 2 clubs were given advances from the SPFL, totaling GBP 300K.Is there anything to stop the SPFL advancing TRFC GBP 1M or GBP 2M to see out this season ?Anybody ?
______________
Hopefully no one will give them any more than the sum they are potentially due in prize money at the end of the season, less whatever they may well have received to date, of course. If you are asking would the SFA/SPFL ‘lend’ them a million or two until ST monies are in, well, who would put that past those despicable bodies? Just as disappointing, though, is that, from past evidence, the clubs losing out on league position and Europe participation, due to TRFC’s overspending on players they can’t afford, would just sit back and let it all happen.
FAN OF FOOTBALL
call me cynical but at the end of this month clubs will be looking for euro license,trfc survivng on loans doesnt fit with with ffp,so step forward smsm with the moonbeams,it’s all rather boring now
Darkbeforedawn
I think you can take it for sure that one of the issues holding up the Comp Off is establishing the role of current TRFC/RIFC Director Andrew Dickson who was a member of the SFA Licensing committee in 3 of 4 meetings in 2011 and was the chap in 2005 who was in charge of 29 files with ebt side letters when HMRC were told there were none for De Boer and Flo in relation to the DOS EBTs. The other 27 side letters were for the BTC ebts.
If you throw in his testimony to the FTT and written testimony to LNS the food that comes to mind is pork pies.
Its actually going to be quite complicated to resolve given what is known outside of Hampden.
Darkbeforedawn.
Ooops forgot to mention the e mail from Regan to Ali Russell on 7 Dec 2011 after Regan had discussed things with Dickson the day before.
ALLYJAMBOMARCH 8, 2018 at 21:11
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StevieBCMarch 8, 2018 at 20:31 Recently it was made apparent that 2 clubs were given advances from the SPFL, totaling GBP 300K.Is there anything to stop the SPFL advancing TRFC GBP 1M or GBP 2M to see out this season ?Anybody ?
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I maybe wrong but did Gretna not get an advance to see them to the end of the season? happy to be corrected or given some clarification
AllyjamboMarch 8, 2018 at 21:11’… would the SFA/SPFL ‘lend’ them a million or two until ST monies are in, well, who would put that past those despicable bodies? ..’
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Interestingly enough, Aj, the original Articles of Association of the SFA (September 1903) at Art 3 (18) had the usual ‘object’ to be found in the Articles of new commercial enterprises , namely
“…to lend and advance money…to such persons and on such terms as may be thought fit, and in particular to members of…..the Association..”
Happily, that ‘object’ seems not to be any part of the most recent Articles (2011) as most recently rubber stamped by Companies House on 29/06/17.
Mind you, a sports governing body that can ignore its own sports rules might not be above acting outwith its company Articles!
Homunculus
March 8, 2018 at 19:38
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ALLYJAMBO
MARCH 8, 2018 at 21:00
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Selling their shares, which are worth say £6m is one thing, ironically it is what David Murray is alleged to have paid to take control of the previous club.
That does nothing about the £20m debt to them and the £3m debt to close.
So to suggest there is an option of buying in reasonably cheaply and having a debt free club makes no sense to me. Unless these very clever businessmen (or so I am told) are willing to walk away from tens of millions of pounds.
Cluster OneMarch 8, 2018 at 21:51’…I maybe wrong but did Gretna not get an advance to see them to the end of the season? happy to be corrected or given some clarification..’
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Quite correct, C1- the SPL gave them some dosh to see out their fixtures.
“Gretna have been handed a cash lifeline by the Scottish Premier League that will allow them to see out the rest of the season. They will bankroll the stricken club with at least £70,000 – allowing the rest of their fixtures to be fulfilled.”
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/mar/20/newsstory.sport14
HomunculusMarch 8, 2018 at 22:19
I suspect the 3bears are feeling rather trapped just now, and probably have for some time. They originally put their money in in the belief that King would put even more in, and that by the time they were converting their loans to shares the club would be on a sound footing and, though they would never get their money back, the shares would not be virtually valueless and they’d be getting what it was they bought into a football club for – the joy and adulation that goes with success at a big football club.
It’s a bit like buying a classic car you’ve always wanted. By the time the opportunity comes along you’re blind to problems that exist within it, and your heart rules your head; but 2 or 3 years later, having committed yourself to spending a fortune on it, you realise it’s never going to stop costing you, and it doesn’t run very well and isn’t much fun anyway. You have a choice, sell it at a huge loss, or keep it and spend more money on what you now know to be a white elephant.
In the same way that a classic car will rot if you don’t spend more and more money on it, if the 3bears decide (and it seems they have) that they’ve spent their last dime on the club, then not only will it rot, they will have less influence on how it’s run as the money will have to come from somewhere, and with it, demands for outside control, such as we see with Close Brothers and the security they’ve taken.
I would be very surprised if none of the 3bears is now only holding on because of fears of what might happen should he walk away from the club, taking whatever he can get of his disastrous ‘investment’.
Still, having said all that, it still doesn’t mean that Murray, or anyone else, is going to come along with a large, or small, wad of cash to takeover the poisoned chalice.
Gretna were absolutely potless when they entered administration in early March 2008.
However, the SPL felt they couldn’t wipe out all fixtures and results as one match against one half of the two league challengers was still to be played. So they threw money at the bottomless pit, money that was lost to the game in general.
Still waiting for a response or acknowledgement from SFM to my communication of a fortnight ago.
It may be that this post goes into the sin bin soon.
ALLYJAMBO
MARCH 8, 2018 at 22:45
I suspect the 3bears are feeling rather trapped just now, and probably have for some time. They originally put their money in in the belief that King would put even more in …
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Sorry, but based on what. His history of integrity, honesty and making good on his grandiose proclamations.
He is a proven fraudster and liar, they can only have believed what you suggested if they have been living off-world for quite some time. With no access to news and having done no due diligence whatsoever on him.
My immediately preceding post:
‘Dunwilco (597) Ltd memorandum of Association at Para III (2) (c) has as one of its objects
” to lend or advance money to any person..”
Dunwilco changed its name to The Scottish Premier League on 9th April 1998.
Presumably, their ‘memorandum of understanding’ did not change, so they had power still to lend to a club!
AllyjamboMarch 8, 2018 at 22:45
“……..It’s a bit like buying a classic car you’ve always wanted….”
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Or, as I think I heard boat-owner Chick remark recently: ” Your two happiest days as a boat owner are the day you buy it, and the day you sell it!”
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It is a desperate gamble for anyone , to lend money to a football club in the hope that it will come good in the end: that it will both ‘sportingly’ and social-taxes-debt-wise qualify and get its UEFA licence, and not be knocked out in the first qualifying round, and so begin to get into some dosh-generating position.
And the word gamble prompts me to ask: is the Compliance Officer so busy f.rting about with ‘complaints’ about Highland league player gambling and such ‘individual’ rule breaking that he has to put his investigation into the RFC licence award on hold?
Just what is the delay?
JOHN CLARK
it is the year 2069 and we are on our 6th compliance officer who is saying on tv “after we study the evidence”
borussiabeefburgMarch 8, 2018 at 22:51
‘.. So they threw money at the bottomless pit, money that was lost to the game in general’
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Are you speaking from actual knowledge that the money was lost?
I don’t know, but I would kind of expect that the loan (and it would have been a loan, not a grant?) was in some way secured?
Is there a Gretna easyJambo on the blog to give us the detail?
tonyMarch 8, 2018 at 23:26
‘…it is the year 2069..’
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I had a wee laugh earlier today when I looked up NEWCASTLE UNITED FOOTBALL COMPANY LIMITED on the Companies House website.
I was checking their accounts for 1931 ( trying to find out when they changed their name from Newcastle East End Football Club!), and found entries like ” 03 May 1931 Accounts made up to 3 May 2030″.
It took me a second or sixty to remember the millennium fear, that planes would fall out of the sky at midnight plus a nanosecond because computers might not recognise 2000!
JOHN CLARK
even the recently departed prince could only party till 1999
John Clark March 8, 2018 at 22:55
My immediately preceding post:
‘Dunwilco (597) Ltd memorandum of Association at Para III (2) (c) has as one of its objects ” to lend or advance money to any person..”
Dunwilco changed its name to The Scottish Premier League on 9th April 1998.
Presumably, their ‘memorandum of understanding’ did not change, so they had power still to lend to a club!
==============================
“Dunwilco” raised a flag with me, but it turned out to be Dunwilco 172 Ltd. that I had seen previously. I assume that Edinburgh commercial lawyers, Dundas and Wilson, set up a number of “Off the Shelf” companies, hence the similar name.
Dunwilco 172 was a David Murray owned company which ended up owning some RFC plc shares after a restructuring of Murray Group’s holdings in the club in February 2011. It was a all bit odd as Dunwilco’s accounts show that the company was “dormant” in 2011.
Just sayin’ likes.
John Clark March 8, 2018 at 23:33
borussiabeefburgMarch 8, 2018 at 22:51 ‘.. So they threw money at the bottomless pit, money that was lost to the game in general’
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Are you speaking from actual knowledge that the money was lost?
I don’t know, but I would kind of expect that the loan (and it would have been a loan, not a grant?) was in some way secured?
Is there a Gretna easyJambo on the blog to give us the detail?
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I’m still the original easyJambo, as I haven’t be liquidated before, although my wife has form for pushing me close to it.
I’m not familiar with the finer details of the Gretna case, but I’d assume that the advance would have been based on prize money due to Gretna at the end on the season, so the money was destined to go there anyway and there was no loss to the game as a result.
TONYMARCH 8, 2018 at 23:2
JOHN CLARKit is the year 2069 and we are on our 6th compliance officer who is saying on tv “after we study the evidence”
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Good point there.
What with all these ‘time travelers’ giving their stories to the MSM, (it’s in the papers so must be true!), Shirley they could be asked when the CO report was eventually published?
And how many titles does TTTTTTTTTTTTTRFC claim to have?
JOHN CLARKMARCH 8, 2018 at 22:36
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Thanks JC for clarification
Re advancing money to Sevco 2012 ala Gretna
I would like to believe that other SPL clubs would have something to say if sevco 2012 were advanced monies whilst sitting 2nd in the league .
If such a thing were to occur surely they would have to be penalized in such a way that they finish bottom of the spl (AT LEAST )
Hold on what am I thinking ,sorry forgot we were talking about a team playing out of Ibrokes .
HomunculusMarch 8, 2018 at 22:53
ALLYJAMBOMARCH 8, 2018 at 22:45I suspect the 3bears are feeling rather trapped just now, and probably have for some time. They originally put their money in in the belief that King would put even more in …====================================Sorry, but based on what. His history of integrity, honesty and making good on his grandiose proclamations. He is a proven fraudster and liar, they can only have believed what you suggested if they have been living off-world for quite some time. With no access to news and having done no due diligence whatsoever on him.
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They believed what they wanted to believe, or needed to believe. Either that, or like so many ‘successful’ people, they put their success down to them being so much smarter than everybody else, including the Kings of this world, and thought that, once in place, they could control the club, with King a mere figurehead.
Who knows what was in their heads when they got into bed with King, other than they shared a desperation to save ‘Rangers’, but it certainly wasn’t to see the club end up in the debt it is in now. Indeed, whatever was in their heads, whatever they knew or thought of King, they did get into bed with him.
Whatever they knew or thought of him then, they certainly can’t be happy with how it’s worked out since, and they must surely be aware they made a mistake by now, and be asking themselves how do they get out of it with reputations, as businessmen and RRMs, in tact, without having to face the wrath of the mental cases within the people who are the we!
I’d be very surprised if any of them, including King, wouldn’t sell their shares to any purchaser who would give them anything, at all, of their money back, and would fit the profile of an acceptable, to the bears, new owner. I’m certain, too, that they’d accept a peppercorn rate for their shares, if the new owner guaranteed repayment of the loans within a reasonable timeframe. David Murray would certainly fit the bill – if he wanted to get involved.
While I find it acceptable for the SFA and SPFL to advance monies to a club to help them see out the season, for it may be seen as part of their role/duty to the member clubs to help secure the future of it’s members, ensuring the completion of the season’s fixtures, it must surely be unacceptable to do so when a club starts the season as a loss making company, then clearly proceeds to spend money it doesn’t come close to having, spending it recklessly to secure a higher place up the league than it’s squad was previously capable of – while claiming to have turned down silly money for a player in the process. Imagine trumpeting that you’ve turned down – what was that figure? -, say £11m, then going to the SFA and SPFL looking for them to help you see out the season!
If TRFC, knowing they were losing money, had been reducing their playing squad and other overheads, making a genuine effort to become sustainable, but still struggling to make ends meet, then advancing prize monies would be, in my opinion, fair. But they’ve done the opposite, disadvantaging their rivals in the process. They do not deserve any help, whatsoever. It beggars belief how that club has, after admitting it needs more and more loans to see out the season, gone on to spend, spend, spend purely in an effort to gain a sporting advantage over their rivals. Only one football club, ever before, could be less deserving of assistance from the game, itself, than TRFC!
Allyjambo
March 9, 2018 at 07:14
I’m certain, too, that they’d accept a peppercorn rate for their shares, if the new owner guaranteed repayment of the loans within a reasonable timeframe. David Murray would certainly fit the bill – if he wanted to get involved.
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I couldn’t agree more, if someone was willing to repay them £20m then I totally agree that they would take a serious hit on the shares.
However do you honestly think David Murray fits the bill and would be acceptable to the support, or put another way, the customers.
On the advancing of money, as a Rangers fan for me it’s a no. If that’s required then we should be docked 20 points. I don’t want to finish in the top half of the league if it’s not on merit. I believe it should only be to allow the remaining fixtures to go ahead. I don’t think it will come to that (I hope
)
HomunculusMarch 9, 2018 at 08:56
AllyjamboMarch 9, 2018 at 07:14I’m certain, too, that they’d accept a peppercorn rate for their shares, if the new owner guaranteed repayment of the loans within a reasonable timeframe. David Murray would certainly fit the bill – if he wanted to get involved.=======================================I couldn’t agree more, if someone was willing to repay them £20m then I totally agree that they would take a serious hit on the shares.However do you honestly think David Murray fits the bill and would be acceptable to the support, or put another way, the customers.
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I have no doubt David Murray fits the bill as a suitable candidate for a new TRFC supremo. I doubt, though, that he is genuinely interested, but he may well be, for all I know.
I also think the 3bears, either collectively, or as individuals, would love to receive even a small proportion of what they’ve put into RIFC/TRFC, unless they truly believe that their club has a future that will give them whatever it was they were looking for when they first got involved (I am sure that was not financial gain, but whatever it was, I don’t think they are getting it, and are rather regretting getting involved)). At the moment they have zero prospects of getting any of their loans repaid, and their shares are close to worthless, even more so if you take the emotional element out of their worth. If, as looks more than likely, the only prospect of a financial recovery is new money, from a new owner, then their only way out of the mess is to accept whatever it is this new owner would be prepared to offer.
There are, of course, other elements of any offer for them to consider before accepting, but I am sure any financial settlement that sees them leave ‘with honour’ and a reasonable amount of their ‘investment’ back, would be seriously considered. In fact, I would say that any amount greater than they might expect to get in a winding up of RIFC/TRFC would be acceptable, provided they aren’t perceived to have sold to a Whyte or Green type character.
Regarding Gretna, in simple terms when Brooks Mileson’s financial support was withdrawn by his family, the club couldn’t afford the wages of the staff, some reported to be on £80,000 annually, against crowds at Motherwell of under 1000.
They were then advanced what was described as their share of television and prize money. But in essence, they had been paying for players they couldn’t afford.
The SPL thus were paying the salaries of those players, with that money disappearing out of the game.
Put simply, would people on here be happy if the SPFL paid cash to the club playing at Ibrox, as they are presently also using players they cannot afford?
borussiabeefburg
March 9, 2018 at 12:41
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Just a couple of points re the Rangers situation.
The club has run at a loss in every year of it’s existence.
It predicted losses this year, before the season even started. Admitted it would need further loans just to see the season out
If I remember correctly brought in players in both the summer and the winter windows.
Rejected an offer which would have seen the business almost certainly running at a small profit os breaking even for this season.
Why would the SFA make advance payments to that club and “bail them out” when overspending in order to obtain a higher league position was clearly a management decision beofre the season even started as opposed to reacting to unforeseen circumstances.
Is it not the league rather than the national association which would make an advance payment in this hypothetical situation?
In any case, Gretna, or more accurately Brooks Mileson, clearly made a management decision before every season in which the club was in the league system that there would be a loss which he would cover.
How far he was prepared to lose money to finance the rise of his club is guesswork, but the authorities should have dealt with the falsity of Gretna’s fairy tale before they got to the level they attained.
And I’m certain they would have eventually stepped in, had Gretna threatened the duopoly which was (is?) favoured by Scotland’s football leaders.
The advance to Gretna was made to ensure fixtures could be completed, when, more realistically, the record of the border club for that season should have been wiped out. However, following the administration announcement, Gretna’s next home match was due to be against Celtic, who were on (for them) a poor run of no victories in four matches. From what I read and recall, Celtic were in second place, having played a game more and trailing by three points. A continuation of their recent form would have all but killed off their league chances.
To me, wiping out Gretna’s fixtures would have been beneficial to one side of the league challengers, to the dissatisfaction of the other. So money was paid out to prop the penniless, dying club up until the season’s end.
HomunculusMarch 9, 2018 at 13:22
I think it’s those ‘unforeseen circumstances’ that are so important in any decision to grant early payments of prize money, and not allow it in the case of planned for overspends. Every business has, from time to time, a financial blip, or even a financial crisis, and sometimes that is caused by overspending in pursuit of profit, or success.
This, I think, is forgivable in a football situation if the spending was budgeted for and had a reasonable chance of working out – in terms of increased revenue – but should the club involved fail to reduce it’s expenses when possible (the January window), that should be seen as a sign that they are taking advantage of the possibility (certainty?) that the governors will grant them the funds to help see them to season’s end.
TRFC, though, knew they needed many millions, just to stand still, when the season started, and acknowledged in their accounts that they needed to raise money/reduce wages during the transfer window. Not only did they not reduce the wage bill sufficiently during January, they actively took steps to substantially increase it.
It goes without saying (but I will) they are taking the p*ss again!
borussiabeefburg
March 9, 2018 at 14:10
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You are of course correct, if it is league prize money then it would be that league which made the advance payment.
My apologies, a slip of the keyboard.
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2018/03/09/why-modern-scotland-must-face-down-the-union-bears/
A quick comment about the Union Bears, who produced the offensive leaflet inviting darkly garbed supporters to march to a football match in Glasgow on Sunday: they have been allocated a space at Ibrox for a stall from which they sell merchandise for around 30 months now.
So it seems their actions are deemed acceptable by the ‘club’, Police Scotland and the local government licencing authority.
And, by extension, the people who organise football in Scotland, the SPFL and the SFA.
Perhaps it’s a good moment before the derby matches to remember the sage words of Jock Stein, ‘Football is nothing without the advertisers.’
I read a story on a celtic blog ,that DK was flying in to hold crisis talks at Ibrokes
I though am more inclined to believe that he has appeared in the expectation of a sevco 2012 win and all the adulation and back slapping that it will no doubt entail .
IMO he is over here to make the most of the euphoria that will engulf the south side of the city if his team get’s a win and let’s face it they could do with it both on and OFF the pitch .
So I think the guys on the celtic blog have got this one totally wrong .
DK is here for good news only ,everything else can wait
All happening this weekend .
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/alfredo-morelos-signs-new-contract/
PADDY MALARKEY
MARCH 9, 2018 at 20:29
All happening this weekend .
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/alfredo-morelos-signs-new-contract/
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And with a £650M Release Clause…well he is younger than Messi.
So the made up story regarding Morelos transfer is now costing Sevco hard cash.
Can I respectfully suggest that the young Colombian striker did not actually say
“I know how important the club is in Scotland, how many titles that it has won and how much history that it has.”
Unless someone in the PR department put a piece of paper in his hand and said “Can you read this out please”.
More likely
Sé lo importante que es el club en Escocia, cuántos títulos ha ganado y cuánta historia tiene
HomunculusMarch 9, 2018 at 21:40
‘…..Can I respectfully suggest that the young Colombian striker did not actually say“I know how important the club is in Scotland, how many titles that it has won and how much history that it has”
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It just goes to show, Homunculus, that TRFC Ltd and its ‘holding company’ have to expend a helluva lot of energy trying to propagandise the myth:it is always an uphill and unwinnable battle trying to resist the Truth.
It’s the kind of thing that the Nazi regime, and the Stalin regime, and the Ceaucescu regime,and the Mugabwe regime etc etc etc .. had to do.
The Truth is the truth,and it quietly assserts itself without the need for ‘dark clothing’ or images of folk being kicked, or of trying to pass off very specifically worded ‘statements’ [ ‘titles’ ,’history’]written by Fat Controllers as being the honest expression of opinion of a youngster who almost certainly knows little about Scotland and Scottish football!
I’ve suggested previously( tongue in cheek) that if I were by nature a liar, I would do a far better job as PR for RIFC plc/TRFC Ltd than the unimaginative thicko in Level 5!
Their PR has been absolutely atrociously inept.
fan of footballMarch 9, 2018 at 19:41
‘..I read a story on a celtic blog ,that DK was flying in to hold crisis talks at Ibrokes ..’
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That must be fake news, fof, because DK never just takes a flight, he jets in!
Seriously, though,the man has problems:
his family trust has to run the risk of spending a good few million buying shares which may, in effect, become next to worthless.
(And he needs to explain that to the distaff side!)
he has somehow to explain to his concert party fellows just why he was able to persuade them to pony up with loans when he himself was ‘impecunious’ and therefore not good for the promises he made
he therefore might have to explain why he perhaps misled the company’s auditors into believing it was safe for them to accept the ‘going concern’ notion instead of warning that an insolvency event might be in the offing
and he has to face the fact that he is now generally seen as a liability, his reputation in the market place shot to hell, and his selfish , monomaniacal desire to get his £20M back no sound basis for other ‘investors’ to be acting upon.
King is a busted flush.
If he appears at the match on Sunday, it will be an indication that the rest of the Board are as much suckers as the Club 1872 folk, who have failed to see how they have , in their innocent loyalty, been cruelly played upon.
In my opinion, of course.
Natural order? No.
It’s cultural restoration.
1 fight for the cause
2 accept power
3 rule
all is Green and White
The reaction or non reaction to the Union Bears leaflet will be a litmus test as to whether we as a country are serious about opposing sectarianism. If no action is taken against this it will give legitimacy to every thuggish grouping in and outwith football.
The Scottish Government,Police Scotland and the club playing out of Ibrox,must condemn this leaflet for what it is. A blatant act of incitement.
On the flyer I’ll be honest and admit I thought it was a fake made up by Celtic fans to incite a debate. If it is in fact proven to be genuine (maybe someone on here can confirm) then Rangers need to take action on this. Forget the police or the SFA, if this is a fan group endorsed by the club then the best form of PR our board could do would be to ban them.
DarkbeforedawnMarch 10, 2018 at 10:18
On the flyer I’ll be honest and admit I thought it was a fake made up by Celtic fans to incite a debate. If it is in fact proven to be genuine (maybe someone on here can confirm) then Rangers need to take action on this. Forget the police or the SFA, if this is a fan group endorsed by the club then the best form of PR our board could do would be to ban them.
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Well said, DBD, but sadly, that is not the type of PR your club’s board are inclined to use. It is one of the links they hold with the previous ‘Rangers’, and they tend to hype that up rather than to show a willingness to embrace more modern attitudes towards their fellow man.