John Clark Meets “The SFA”

Regular posters and contributors to the SFM may remember that in October last year I wrote to Mr McRae, President of the SFA.

I posted the text of my letter on 28th October http://www.sfmonitor.org/whose-assets-are-they-anyway/?cid=20786

I had not received a reply or acknowledgement by 12th December, so I sent a reminder. I received a reply to that reminder, dated 16 December 2015, in which Mr McRae apologised for not having responded to my previous letter, and invited me to come and see him. We arranged that I should visit him at Hampden on 19 January 2016 at 2.00 p.m.

Following the meeting, I wrote a summary of the conversation. I emailed that summary to Mr Darryl Broadfoot, Head of Communications, asking him to check whether my recollections were accurate, because I was my intention to post the summary on SFM.

I have not had a reply and I think I have waited a fair enough time, so, here is the summary of an approximately 45 minute conversation.

I should first make it clear that Mr McRae said that he had no recollection of airing any of the views recorded in my letter as attributed to him. I should also say that I made it clear that while I contribute to SFM, I was not there as ‘officially representing’ SFM, although what I would say broadly reflected the view of many.


 

“Note of informal meeting between me, and Alan McRae, President of the SFA, with Darryl Broadfoot, Press Officer, at Hampden park, 2.00 pm Tuesday, 19th January.

Background: I had written to Mr McRae in October 2015, to ask whether Mr McRae had really (as had been reported to me) aired the following opinions:

  1. that Rangers FC were not Liquidated
  2. that Rangers FC were put down to the third Division
  3. that Rangers FC were bought by Charles Green and that the team currently playing out of Ibrox Stadium and calling itself The Rangers Football Club Ltd is one and the same as the club known as Rangers Football Club, which is currently in Liquidation.

Mr McRae, through Mr Broadfoot, went through the points one by one.

On point one, there was no difficulty in agreeing that RFC had been Liquidated. That was accepted as a matter of fact.

On point two, I argued that;

  • Mr Green’s new club had had to apply for league and SFA membership, and were therefore admitted as a new club to Scottish Football and allowed into SFL Third Division.
  • They had as an emergency measure been granted conditional membership, and had had to seek the Administrators’ and Football Authorities’ agreement to the use of certain RFC (IL) players who had decided to sign on with the new club in order to play their first game as a new club.
  • They were ‘put in ‘the Third Division as a new club, not as an existing club being relegated.

Mr McRae, through Mr Broadfoot, argued that ‘put in’ and ‘admitted to’ are pretty much the same thing, and that the legal advice obtained was that Mr Green’s new club was not a new club, and the Authorities were stuck with that.

I referred to the 5-way Agreement, and made the point that two entities other than league or SFA representatives were signatories to that agreement: RFC (IL) and Mr Green’s new club. The two could not be one.

Mr Broadfoot said that was a matter of opinion.

I said that it was rather a matter of fact.

Likewise, on the third point, there was disagreement.

Mr Broadfoot, for Mr McRae, argued that Charles Green bought the club (and Mr McRae personally added ‘and the “goodwill”’).

I pointed out that Mr Green had NOT bought the club out of Administration, as had happened with other clubs, but merely had bought the assets of a former club that was NOT able to bought out of administration and was consequently Liquidated.

Mr Broadfoot said that Celtic and Rangers supporters might continue to disagree but that could only be expected.

I pointed out that this was not at all a Celtic-Rangers supporters’ issue, and that the Scottish Football Monitor, for instance, represented the views of supporters of many clubs. I further made the point that many sports administrative bodies had come under the spotlight in current times and people were naturally concerned that the governance of football should be above suspicion: and that substantial numbers feel that the Football Authorities have been at fault, in permitting a new club to claim to be an old club and pretend to the honours and titles etc etc.

Reference was made in the passing to some allegations that had been made that certain evidence relating to the Discounted Option Scheme had been withheld from the LNS commission, which occasioned Lord Nimmo Smith to be misled; and to the apparent negligent performance of the SFA administration under the previous President, who, both on account of his personal knowledge of the use of the DOS by Sir David Murray, and as a subsequent recipient of an EBT, might reasonably have been expected to ensure a thorough and diligent examination of the information provided by clubs about payments to players.

Mr Broadfoot ruled out discussion of the first of these matters because ‘there was no evidence’, and the second matter was also ruled out because, he asserted, the previous president is a man of the highest integrity.

I replied that work was in hand to provide evidence, and that the question of negligent performance of duties was not a question of ‘personal integrity’.

Mr Broadfoot opined that the future would show whether Scottish Football supporters were really concerned about the old club/new club debate, if huge numbers turned their backs on the game.

I replied that a sport based on a false proposition, on what could be seen as a lie, no matter on what pragmatic reasons, would certainly wither if and when people thought the sport could be rigged.

As the meeting drew to a close, I was asked if, coming from Edinburgh, I was a Hibs or Hearts supporter, or perhaps a Celtic supporter? And whether I was going to tonight’s (Celtic were playing that evening at home) game?

I replied that as my name suggests, I was of Irish extraction and perhaps conclusions could be drawn from that. Also that I would not be going to tonight’s game, and that my interest in the present matter was rather more academic and objective than partisan.

The meeting ended cordially at about 2.45.pm “


 

I think I can say that Mr Broadfoot, opening the meeting, explained that

“for the purposes of this meeting, I am the SFA.”

Mr McRae’s personal contribution to the conversation was therefore very little more than mentioned above, Mr Broadfoot doing most of the talking.

I will say further that I spoke to BP, and consulted one or two other posters before I went to the meeting, in order to make sure that my general understanding both of the principal events of the ‘saga’ and of the thrust of most of SFM’s contributors, who are drawn from supporters of many clubs, was sufficiently sound.

I give it as my opinion that I may have been invited to a personal meeting only because it might have been thought in some quarters that I was in possession of an electronic recording of what I told Mr McRae that he was reported as having said.

And, finally, I declare here that my note of the meeting was written within two hours of the meeting, and reflects the substance of the conversation. It is exactly the note I sent by email to Broadfoot, except that I corrected a typo in the spelling of Darryll (I had ‘Caryll’), have omitted my own surname, and changed references to myself from the third person to the first person.

 

 

1,392 thoughts on “John Clark Meets “The SFA”


  1. jimbo 30th January 2016 at 11:32 pm #Essexbeancounter, 
    On an aside issue, I can never understand why Laudrup was not a Celtic player/ supporter, he was good enough, intelligent enough, handsome enough,  what the hang happened?   Don’t tell me it was those blasted EBTs again?
    =========================================
    Jimbo…as my learned friends in the House of Commons would say…”I would refer the Honourable Member to the answer I gave earlier…”


  2. I have no idea why Mr King has not been challenged on his wild proclamations publicly. Perhaps the clue lies in other events of the last week.

    i do however take issue with you simply saying you can only ask questions – I am happy to accept I’m wrong, but with Bawsman yesterday stating that tax was not paid in the early 90s and your question today linking 9 in a row years with tax avoidance, it is an unfortunate coincidence.

    if anyone can prove tax avoidance / evasion during those years, it would receive as much condemnation from me as the subsequent post 1999 tax avoidance / evasion has. However I suspect that if there was any evidence of this it would have been presented by now, and I have no doubt that many people have investigated this at length. If it can’t be proved, I think it best not to try to smear those titles honestly won. 


  3. Stokes and Henderson must find themselves in a very odd position tonight. It doesn’t look like they would be permitted to play in the final should Celtic get a result tomorrow. On a personal level they must be rooting for a Celtic defeat.
         I don’t blame them as to all intents, they are Hibees and should naturally be hoping to face , what is on paper the weaker team (No dis), but they have the added sauce that if Ross do win, they would be eligible to play in a final.. 
       My only surprise is that they haven’t had a mic stuck in their face to ask them yet ! 
       I will obviously be cheering on my team, but best of luck to all you proud Highland men, and may the best team on the day win.  


  4. RyanGosling 30th January 2016 at 11:37 pm #I have no idea why Mr King has not been challenged on his wild proclamations publicly. Perhaps the clue lies in other events of the last week.
    i do however take issue with you simply saying you can only ask questions – I am happy to accept I’m wrong, but with Bawsman yesterday stating that tax was not paid in the early 90s and your question today linking 9 in a row years with tax avoidance, it is an unfortunate coincidence.
    if anyone can prove tax avoidance / evasion during those years, it would receive as much condemnation from me as the subsequent post 1999 tax avoidance / evasion has. However I suspect that if there was any evidence of this it would have been presented by now, and I have no doubt that many people have investigated this at length. If it can’t be proved, I think it best not to try to smear those titles honestly won. 
    ==========================================
    Ryan…
    You are making a genuinely honest attempt to answer three, very serious questions, in three very short, but apparently linked, paragraphs.
    However firstly, Bawsman and I are not a “double act”…20
    Secondly, I can categorically state that neither of us, that is you Ryan Gosling and me, Essexbeancounter, will never know the real truth of the tax affairs of RFC(IL)…we can indeed only ask questions…answers will never be forthcoming…
    Finally,I could not give the proverbial stuff re titles won…honestly or otherwise…smearing of those titles is the furthest thing on my mind…my main interest, is in establishing the truth, but…please let us not hold our (collective) breath… 05


  5. RyanGosling 30th January 2016 at 11:20 pm
    ‘….We must deal with facts, which is something this site has historically done well..’
    __________
    Couldn’t agree more with the proposition that we must deal with facts, because ‘facts are chiels that winna ding’ etc etc.
    The corollary, of course, is that when the facts have been patiently put together, they must be acted upon, even when they are denied by those whose interests are threatened.02


  6. Corrupt official 30th January 2016 at 11:45 pm
    ‘…..should Celtic get a result tomorrow..’
    ___________
    There are those who take a Celtic victory for granted.
    And those whose keenest desire, God forgive them,is that there be a Final involving a new club………And those are they  who put money before any kind of principle.
    So your use of the conditional ‘should’ is to be commended, as showing genuine respect both to the opposition and to the well established fact ( according to the late and much loved Jimmy Greaves) that ‘football is a funny old game’!02


  7. John Clark 31st January 2016 at 12:59 am  
       John I have always been of the mind, that on any day, any team, can beat any team. A belief that is constantly reinforced. I will be as apprehensive pre match tomorrow, as I will be playing EK, or Aberdeen. I honestly wouldn’t be bothered with fitba if I thought a result was just a matter of turning up. Fortunately I never do. For me, every game starts at 0-0 and will be decided over the next 90 minutes…..Anything can happen. 
        As you say..It’s a funny old game.  


  8. No support from fellow SMSM  journalists for “The Herald Two”
    No token journalist walk outs – if only for 5 minutes – to produce the ‘photo opportunity’ to show their unity with fellow NUJ members ?
    No opinion pieces in the Scottish rags, (well I haven’t seen any yet).
    Nothing from the ‘impartial’ BBC ?
    Not even a peep from our bestest, multiple Award Winner – Keef ?!

    …no, didn’t think so…

    And whilst we are not privvy to all the details, on the face of it, a reasonable person IMO, would perceive that The Herald is well and truly in the pocket of the Ibrox club.

    And mibbees the only way the paper can ‘try’ and restore some credibility…is to publish some hard-hitting, truthful stories / analysis / opinion about the Ibrox club!
    The type of reporting which has been sadly lacking in recent years around Govan.

    I know, and that’s me totally sober too…  🙂


  9. Can anyone confirm that Billy King was smart enough to ask that his wages to the end of season be paid in a lump sum when he signed. If so I am impressed. He might be the only player to get all his wages.


  10. Stevie BC,

    The BBC did have a report on the Herald story, on their news app, with quotes from the NUJ, accusing the paper of “pandering to the mob”.
    Sorry I can’t post a link, but I found it in the sub section for Glasgow and West Scotland. 


  11. bad capt madman 30th January 2016 at 7:25 pm #
    +++++++++++++++++++
    What if it already started. say, 4 years ago?
     


  12. Fisiani 31st January 2016 at 3:37 am #
    _____________________
    Hearts to continue paying Kings wages so long as a set/agreed amount of playing time is guaranteed.


  13. Trisidium 30th January 2015 at 10:56pm
    Must confess I had to go looking for guest default avatar but I like what you did there. For parity can Angela Haggerty’s photograph alternate with GS?
    And just to show we’re not taking our eye off the ball or off chasing squirrels a photograph of Darryl I AM THE SFA Broadfoot now and then would concentate the mind wonderfully.


  14. parttimearab 31st January 2016 at 9:57 am #Angela Haggerty has a piece on her sacking in Bella Caledonia today.
    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/01/31/without-fear-or-favour/
    ______________
    What a refreshingly un-bitter peice by an un-bitter lady. Presented with an opportunity to lambast those not brave enough to stand by her, she chose to sympathise with them for the difficult position they find themselves in, while still expressing her shock and dismay at losing a position that clearly meant a lot to her. Her critics and abusers could learn a lot from her, if only they had the intelligence to listen.

    I wish her well and hope her career goes from strength to strength.


  15. John Clark, I think you are mistaking Jimmy Greaves for Jimmy Hill. Jimmy Greaves although gravely ill after a serious stroke last year is happily still alive and making a slow recovery 


  16. Well Magnus
    I would imagine come Monday the Rangers PR dept will be on the phone to you to congratulate you on the world wide publicity the Speirs/Haggerty piece has now attracted,as Angela says if there is a silver lining in this then it can only be a good thing,this can also be spun that in doing a wrong ,a terrible wrong there was good reason,and that was to give the story the vast exposure it now has,I expect some folk across the globe will want to know the name of the Director involved,and rightly so,as one past member of the club you capitulated to,Who are these people,we are entitled to know,congratulations on what you have done,you must have one of the largest sets in the media world,a true Buster Gonad.


  17. yourhavingalaugh 31st January 2016 at 11:05 am
    I expect some folk across the globe will want to know the name of the Director involved
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    I give it a week for the name to be released
    And 25yrs for the SFA to do anything about it
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    (Mmmm………… 25 yrs.
    …That`ll be 29 in a row


  18. Totally OT I know and apologize but RIP Sir Terry Wogan 


  19. West Ham Fan 31st January 2016 at 10:40 am
    ‘John Clark, I think you are mistaking Jimmy Greaves for Jimmy Hill. Jimmy Greaves although gravely ill after a serious stroke last year is happily still alive and making a slow recovery .’
    ________
    Thank you for the correction, WHF, and I apologise for giving Greavsie the chance to say ‘rumours of my death are greatly exaggerated’!My apologies to him and anyone who might have taken it tht I was reporting something new.
    But was I right in attributing the ‘funny old game’ remark to him?


  20. As far as i understand it, Graham Spiers exchanged email correspondence with people at TRFC re his story. I wouldnt mind seeing the contents of those emails. Graham? Charlotte? Anyone? 

    Graham and Angela come out of this with dignity and certainly a bit more respect. The Herald comes out of this atrociously and TRFC comes across as a petty, bitter entity trapped in a past no one should really care about. Sadly, tens of thousands do. 


  21. Angela Haggerty in her restrained piece in ‘Bella Caledonia’  says ” And that’s the key thing here, you have to ask who the winner out of this is. In this episode, it’s Rangers Football Club, …”
    _________
    I think she’s mistaken. Rangers Football Club lies destroyed and in Liquidation, brought to that condition by the same cheating mentality that informs everything that has been done by those claiming that the spurious, fundamentally dishonest ‘The Rangers Football Club Ltd’ is the same club RFC(IL).
    And TRFC, far from ‘winning’ by their disgraceful bullying [ disgraceful, and on a par with the  heinously disgraceful capitulation to that bullying by an ‘Editor-in-Chief’ and his lackey-who if they had any honour, would instantly resign ], have once again shown the world what kind of mock ‘football club’ it is.


  22. RyanGosling 30th January 2016 at 11:37 pm #
    If it can’t be proved, I think it best not to try to smear those titles honestly won. 

    ——————

    Ryan, I have long argued that the time frame of distrust should go back as long as David Murray was in charge.
    It is fair and correct to question titles won during times when it has been proven rules were broken, if not proven, they should not be assumed dishonest just because I don’t like them and it suits my narrative.
    My problem is not about what is not known, it is about what is clearly in the books of the old club. They moved funds around between companies (nearly 50m just in one transaction) to keep the lights on, the paid a lot more out than they took in over many years, passed that debt onto other companies, sold off the family silver just to keep winning and then they, along with some of the other companies, went bust without paying debts that were due to paying for something they could not afford.
    Dishonest? Maybe not but it remains my view that Rangers won 9IAR fair and square on the field of play, it is also my view, based on the books of Rangers during that time,  it was anything but fair and square off the field.


  23. Angela Haggerty’s piece in Bella Caledonia informs us that she will no longer be employed by ANY Newsquest title, a portfolio of about 200 publications. It seems clear that the decision to pander to Sevco pressure has come from a level above the editorial team. SFM readers may wish to consider whether to subscribe to Newsquest titles other than the Herald. I shall no longer be buying the Brighton Evening Argus!


  24. yourhavingalaugh 31st January 2016 at 11:05 amI expect some folk across the globe will want to know the name of the Director involved
    ===============================

    There are many across the web already naming said Director. I won’t be repeating it on here but the name being suggested is exactly the one I immediately thought of.  I am sure every single Scottish sports hack will know who it is. 


  25. Allyjambo 31st January 2016 at 10:23 am #
    ================================

    Well said. Angela Haggerty attracts a lot of negative online coverage and the reason for much of it is obvious. She is a Celtic fan who is willing to speak her mind on a number of controversial issues and as we know some people just don’t think that should be allowed.  These people should not be allowed to win. 

    At the end of the day whether it is Angela Haggerty, Graham Spiers, Keith Jackson, Tom English or whoever, we don’t have to agree with what they write. However, I believe we should all stand behind their right to say it. Worryingly it’s hard to know just how far this censorship has spread in the Scottish media. 


  26. John Clark 31st January 2016 at 12:34 pm 

    You are indeed correct Sir, I believe he used to say it regularly on the Saint and Greavsie show 0404 


  27. Just out of interest. If Rangers are so upset that one of their Directors told Graham Spiers that he thought the billy boys is a great song, and Graham Spiers made that public, without naming the director. Does that mean that the board are embarrassed by one of their board feeling that way. If so, does that mean they think these is something wrong with that particular dirge.

    Maybe they should unequivocally tell the support that. They should stop singing it, not because it will get the club into bother, because it is wrong. PIt has no place in a modern Scotland.


  28. spikeyheid 31st January 2016 at 12:57 pm #Angela Haggerty’s piece in Bella Caledonia informs us that she will no longer be employed by ANY Newsquest title, a portfolio of about 200 publications. It seems clear that the decision to pander to Sevco pressure has come from a level above the editorial team. SFM readers may wish to consider whether to subscribe to Newsquest titles other than the Herald. I shall no longer be buying the Brighton Evening Argus!
    ================================
    Crivens.
    That makes it a far bigger issue than a purely domestic Scotland (West of?) related matter, although clearly the ramifications for press freedom and free speech are much wider, those directly or potentially affected were Herald employees.
    If an organisation of that size is unwilling to support a journalist, how safe and secure must every one of their other employees now be feeling?Is this a Ratners moment for Newsquest?
    I’m off oot for the game, but is it possible for someone to source a full list of titles please?I and I’m sure many others demand to know the names.


  29. West Ham Fan 31st January 2016 at 1:34 pm #John Clark 31st January 2016 at 12:34 pm 
    You are indeed correct Sir, I believe he used to say it regularly on the Saint and Greavsie show  
    ===========================
    And Saint would reply along the lines of ” Ho ho Greavsie, you kill me” during a fit of laughter.


  30. essexbeancounter 30th January 2016 at 11:10 pm #The Cat NR1 30th January 2016 at 10:39 pm #Big Pink 30th January 2016 at 10:12 pm #KILMARNOCK PRESS RELEASE Saturday, 30th January, 2016Gary Locke has resigned as First Team Manager this evening and will be replaced by Lee McCulloch on an interim basis pending a permanent appointment.   Lee will be assisted by Peter Leven and Under 20 Head Coach Alan Robertson.The Board of Directors would like to thank Gary for his time with the Club and wish him every success in the future.Lee McCulloch is the holder of a UEFA Pro Licence and has been acting as a First Team Coach this season, although he remains registered as a player.  Ends.=============================So Gary Locke’s done walking away before he got given the elbow.Will Elbows be able to lock down the job permanently? =================================== Cat…nice to see you have  shrugged off (I hope  ) the seasonal pressures of HMRC filing deadlines and resumed your usual acerbic posting style…I await your elbow in my ribs… 
    ============================================
    Cheers EBC.
    I had to pop into work for a couple of hours yesterday, to get the last few done.
    Normal service will be resumed now that I have time to type as well as read.
    I’ve been keeping up, and virtually every post has been read, albeit sometimes at ridiculous o’clock in the morning.
    I hope you were successful too.
    Sorry to everyone else for drifting OT.


  31. Mission statementNewsquest’s objective is to have market-leading brands disseminating local information in a number of different and simultaneous ways, which reflect the views and aspirations of the communities they serve. Our multi-media brands must be the authoritative source of information that customers can trust; being willing to listen but not afraid to question.
    Newsquest is market-led and technology-driven and with all its products – both print and digital – the company’s aim is always to provide optimum service to customers
    Newsquest mission statement . I particularly like the snippet about “not afraid to question” .


  32. tykebhoy 31st January 2016 at 1:56 pm
    That link is quite useful

    To  Newsquest,  Herald & Times Group (Glasgow)
    Are you reaching  these targets ?
    http://www.newsquest.co.uk/about/diversity-statement/
    Inter alia
    “To that end, our diversity programme encourages a workforce that reflects local demographics and provides equality and fairness for all who work for us”
     
    FAIL
     
    http://www.newsquest.co.uk/about/#mission-statement
     
    FAIL
     
    Oops! need to do much better!!

    Edit: paddy malarkey 31st January 2016 at 2:18 pm #                  ya beat me to it04


  33. League Cup semi final at a half empty ‘neutral’ Hampden.
    A full house at the properly Neutral Pittodrie would’ve been the sensible option surely.


  34. The Cat NR1 31st January 2016 at 1:59 pm #===================================
    Cat…nice to see you have  shrugged off (I hope  ) the seasonal pressures of HMRC filing deadlines and resumed your usual acerbic posting style…I await your elbow in my ribs… ============================================Cheers EBC.I had to pop into work for a couple of hours yesterday, to get the last few done.Normal service will be resumed now that I have time to type as well as read.I’ve been keeping up, and virtually every post has been read, albeit sometimes at ridiculous o’clock in the morning.I hope you were successful too.Sorry to everyone else for drifting OT.
    =================================
    Cat…amazing what IT/software can do…all done and dusted last night…back to “normal service” 03


  35. Armageddon my backside
    not if big Effy Ambrose has anything to do with it


  36. Cup Finals since Armageddon:

    League Cup – 5 Finals –  9 different finalists (Killie, Celtic(2), St Mirren, Hearts, Aberdeen, ICT, Dundee Utd, Hibs, Ross Co.), and this season’s final will produce a 5th different winner.

    Scottish Cup – 4 Finals – 7 different finalists (Hearts, Hibs(2), Celtic, St Johnstone, Dundee Utd, ICT, Falkirk) and four different winners.

    That sort of distribution of winners and finalists has to be good for the game, yet the SMSM continue to pedal the myth that Scottish football is failing because of one particular club being absent from the lists above.  


  37. Two massive IFs appearing in this Herald story for me.  It won’t be the populist view, but rather than rush to the TDs consider the following:

    If Spiers has evidence?  We chastise the Chris Jacks of this world for unsubstantiated statements.  We have to apply the same rigour to Spiers.  
    IF what was said was said in support of the sectarian content of the song then hell mend him, period.  But what if he was referring to its anthemic quality*, the much maligned ‘Atmosphere’ that commentators historically didn’t just  ignore but positively fawned over.  I ask the question genuinely?  What if they changed the lyrics?  I heard Manyou fans sing something very similar on Friday.  Does that make it legal? There is still a question of appropriateness of course.  I think the red flag is a great song, but I wouldn’t go to the Tory party conference to sing it!  It is a question of context and I’m just a little nervous of the rush to arms on this one.  

    That said, I maintain my own standpoint on it.  They’ve been told not to sing it ergo they can’t sing it.  The director therefore should have had the brains to give the subject a massive body swerve. Which of course swings the arguement back in Spiers favour.  Was he saying either the guy was a bigot, or too stupid to know the difference, neither of which is a defence for someone in that position.  If so I have a degree of support.  But the herald diktat that followed was pretty adamant about ‘circumstances’ hence the queries above.  

    * To be clear, by anthemic quality I mean nothing more than it’s ability to get 40,000 on its feet singing along.


  38. Smugas 31st January 2016 at 6:15 pm
    ‘…We chastise the Chris Jacks of this world for unsubstantiated statements. We have to apply the same rigour to Spiers.  ‘
    _________
    Speirs, to my knowledge, has never, unlike some other radio and print SMSM-folk written an untruth: his fault lay in sharing with the general run of hacks the lack of will to do some real investigative journalism into the 5-way agreement, and in falling into line in ‘wanting to move on’.
    He is not likely to have suddenly begun to tell lies.
    And I’d be of the opinion that the whole crew of Directors who, in effect, are living and profiting from the ‘Big Lie’, might swear on a stack of whatever before I’d believe them over a journalist prepared to defend himself against  a cowardly editor.
    Since we are not likely to be told all the facts and circumstances, I think we’re dealing with the balance of probabilities. And that balance swings in Speirs’ favour.


  39. easyJambo 31st January 2016 at 5:48 pm #
    Cup Finals since Armageddon: 
    That sort of distribution of winners and finalists has to be good for the game…”
    ===============
    Absolutely eJ !
    And it should be blindingly obvious even to a blind man and his dug that this distribution of silverware can only boost interest and support of Scottish football -at all levels – in towns and cities across the country.

    Except this is killing the Hampden blazers, TRFC and the SMSM !
    It questions the relevance of the Ibrox club.
    It questions the ‘dominant’ perception held by TRFC supporters and their sycophants.
    How dare the rest of Scottish football enjoy itself, whilst the ‘mighty Ranjurs’ stumbles from one crisis to the next.

    And consider this: if there was no football club in Govan then the papers’ coverage of Scottish football could be a joy to behold.
    No really!
    Talking up the positives of the game, highlighting smaller clubs and their promising youngsters to watch out for in the future, more focus on all the senior clubs.
    Uplifting, interesting, educational sports coverage in the SMSM.

    But instead we are subjected to negative, talking down of the game, over exposure of 1 club, and futile attempts at brainwashing their readers that Scottish football ‘needs a strong Rangers’.
    No it doesn’t !  


  40. Absolutely John and I agree entirely.  I was trying to think of a better way to word my initial query.  Bear in mind the background was the undoubted sectarian singing at the hibs match, what if the email chain was distilled down to:

    GS:  mr director, what did you think about them singing The Billy Boys last night?

    Director:  I think it’s a great song if only we could sort out those damnable lyrics.  

    As you say Spiers has not to date resorted to that type of journalism which we all know exists. Like you then, I don’t think for a minute he has this time either, which is why my support still lies with him for now.  But does that not make it odder why The Herald would pick this particular fight.


  41. StevieBC 31st January 2016 at 7:37 pm #
    easyJambo 31st January 2016 at 5:48 pm #Cup Finals since Armageddon: …That sort of distribution of winners and finalists has to be good for the game…”
    =———————
    And remember TRFC were involved in ALL of these competitions.


  42. easyJambo 31st January 2016 at 5:48 pm #
    ============================

    Richard Gordon made the same point on Sportsound today saying ‘we were told our game would die after the goings on down Ibrox way four years ago’. The rest of the panel were not very interested in taking him up on it, yet it’s a decent point.


  43. Smugas 31st January 2016 at 6:15 pm #Two massive IFs appearing in this Herald story for me.  It won’t be the populist view, but rather than rush to the TDs consider the following:
    If Spiers has evidence?  We chastise the Chris Jacks of this world for unsubstantiated statements.  We have to apply the same rigour to Spiers.  IF what was said was said in support of the sectarian content of the song then hell mend him, period.  But what if he was referring to its anthemic quality*, the much maligned ‘Atmosphere’ that commentators historically didn’t just  ignore but positively fawned over.

    A good point and imo a fair one Smugas, so no TDs from me.
    From my own experience I can say that Rangers fans I have known value that sing for, as you put it, it’s “anthemic” quality.
    The downside of course is the head in the sand avoidance of its lyrics, and, I have to say, the baggage that goes with it.
    I wouldn’t be surprised (but of course have no way of knowing) that the un-named director suffered from the same ability to (how should I put this) selectively edit their experiences as a Rangers fan.
    However as much as decent Rangers fans might enjoy the atmospheric side of it they need to acknowledge the bigotry and violence that clings to it (and by extension the club).
    By attacking Spiers in the way they have (indirectly and via the threat of a libel action [I assume]) once again an opportunity to break with an unpleasant past has been lost.
    How much more appropriate would it have been, if my surmise is correct, if they had simply stated the attraction the song had but condemned its content, apologised, taken action against those singing it and attempted to move forward?
    By attacking Spiers they have pandered to the lowest common denominator in their support and once again  reminded every other fan in Scotland why they are universally disliked (apologies here to Ryan and others but as long as this unpleasant past/present isn’t dealt with that’s an unavoidable consequence).


  44. Smugas 31st January 2016 at 7:47 pm #
    ===========

    I believe Spiers e-mail exchange with Rangers took place after a meeting last August, well before the Rangers v Hibs game.


  45. A statement tonight from RST regarding the “Herald” affair- https://t.co/Mq0Id4pERz
    Penned by Chris Graham, no doubt. A wee taster-

    Graham Spiers has a history of telling lies about Rangers Football Club and its fans. The Herald’s only mistake in their dealings with Spiers came in allowing him to print false allegations about a Rangers director in the first place. Spiers claims to have been appalled at the comments he falsely attributed to this unnamed director.

    If that is untrue, then it must surely be actionable?


  46. UTH
    Who was all on the panel,some of the usual lipspittles.


  47. John Clark 31st January 2016 at 6:47 pm # Smugas 31st January 2016 at 6:15 pm‘…We chastise the Chris Jacks of this world for unsubstantiated statements. We have to apply the same rigour to Spiers.  ‘_________Speirs, to my knowledge, has never, unlike some other radio and print SMSM-folk written an untruth: his fault lay in sharing with the general run of hacks the lack of will to do some real investigative journalism into the 5-way agreement, and in falling into line in ‘wanting to move on’.He is not likely to have suddenly begun to tell lies. And I’d be of the opinion that the whole crew of Directors who, in effect, are living and profiting from the ‘Big Lie’, might swear on a stack of whatever before I’d believe them over a journalist prepared to defend himself against  a cowardly editor. Since we are not likely to be told all the facts and circumstances, I think we’re dealing with the balance of probabilities. And that balance swings in Speirs’ favour.
    ________________________________
    I’m not sure that a person being sued has to prove anything, rather the person doing the suing has to show that, in this case, Spiers, is lying. Spiers has called no one any inflammatory names, he hasn’t said that he heard a director singing the song, nor that he (Spiers) said that he (the director) thought it wrong for it to be criminalised. He merely said that an un-named director said he thought it a good song (to that effect). It appeared, as it was described in the piece, to be no more than a passing remark, but one Spiers thought might indicate a lack of motivation within the board. Even if the director was named, it would be pretty hard to convince an unbiased observer that he had been ‘defamed’, but he wasn’t named, and so the thoughts are that each member of the board was implicated by association, and can sue as a group.

    Assuming it went to court:

    It would, of course, come down to who is believed in a court of law; a well respected journalist, who has a soft spot for the football club involved, and no conceivable reason to tell lies nor to publicly insult the board. He has also had the opportunity to let the matter drop. In short, this respected journalist is standing his ground on a matter of principle!

    On the other side we have a board, first trying to prove that no member actually said the words attributed to one of their number, then trying to convince a jury? (not sure if it would be a jury trial) that their collective word should be believed.

    Now, if I was Mr Spiers’ counsel, I’d ask if a board/individuals that would align itself/themselves with a convicted criminal, described as we all know he was described by a South African High Court judge and has continued to show the same disrespect for the truth since joining said board as chairman, display the a level of judgement and integrity that would lend credence to their claim/evidence.

    As has been pointed out before, in a civil court it comes down to the weight of probability, and, unless the board can provide evidence that the words were never said (and how do you do that?), it would come down to who is the most credible witness. Now who might that be?

    The killer is, of course, that, as TRFC would have to claim that to say someone of their standing likes the song ‘The Billy Boys’ is defamatory, and, no doubt have to explain why it should be so and that they agree it is so, would mean they would never take it to court in the first place, even if Graham Spiers was, indeed, lying.

    As for the Herald acting on legal advice, could that legal advice have been, ‘they’d be stupid to take you to court, but, yes, they can cancel the advertising contract!’  


  48. My opinion is that Mr Spiers is an intelligent and clever man.  I do not think he would have written his article without  having sure fire back up confirmation.


  49. Carlisle v. Everton in the English cup…Everton score very early on, some racist comments come from the crowd towards Everton players. The referee has an announcement made to the crowd about the expected standard of behaviour. Comments cease.

    BT Sport are covering the match, mention the abuse in their coverage, include it in questions put to players and managers post-match. The issue is picked up in this evening’s online version of the Telegraph, Independent, Guardian newspapers, each of which highlights the behaviour in the title of their match coverage.

    Contrast and compare…


  50. Allyjambo 31st January 2016 at 9:05 
    I’m not sure that a person being sued has to prove anything, rather the person doing the suing has to show that, in this case, Spiers, is lying.

    Sorry Ally J but I’m pretty certain that the burden of proof in a libel trial is on the defendant, albeit on the civil basis of balance of orobability
    Best detail I can dredge up is from Wikipedia;

    A defamatory statement is presumed to be false unless the defendant can prove its truth. Furthermore, to collect compensatory damages, a public official or public figure must prove actual malice (knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth).[citation needed] A private individual must only prove negligence (not using due care) to collect compensatory damages.[citation needed] To collect punitive damages, all individuals must prove actual malice.

    Happy for the more knowledgeable to correct of course.


  51. Smugas 31st January 2016 at 7:47 pm
    ‘…. But does that not make it odder why The Herald would pick this particular fight.’
    ___________
    It is odd, but then a whole of things to do both with the liquidated  RFC and the new club are odd!02


  52. Thanks AJ.  Again you’re backing up my arguement just a lot more eloquently than wot I could.  If you’re going to go to public war as the herald have chosen to do then make sure they can win first.  Why would they show up “on a balance of probabilities?”

    UTH,  thanks for the timing update but be absolutely clear this isn’t an RFC dig per se, it’s Herald (or newsgroup) vs Spiers.


  53. yourhavingalaugh 31st January 2016 at 8:47 pm #UTHWho was all on the panel,some of the usual lipspittles.
    ========================================

    Willie Miller, Pat Bonnar & Tom English were on the panel. 

    In my opinion there is no-one in the Scottish media who can hold a candle to Richard Gordon. His professionalism is incredible. He never hides from the fact he is an Aberdeen fan but there is never a hint of bias, bitterness or malice in anything he says, no matter what the Aberdeen result has been, or what the current issues of the day are. The rest of them have much to learn from him but I don’t hold out much hope for that. 


  54. Smugas 31st January 2016 at 9:28 pm #Thanks AJ.  Again you’re backing up my arguement just a lot more eloquently than wot I could.  If you’re going to go to public war as the herald have chosen to do then make sure they can win first.  Why would they show up “on a balance of probabilities?”
    UTH,  thanks for the timing update but be absolutely clear this isn’t an RFC dig per se, it’s Herald (or newsgroup) vs Spiers.
    ============================

    As I said earlier a number of online sites have stated who the Director allegedly is. IMO this matter has not ended. Even more so when you read the statement from the RST who state Spiers is just making up lies. 


  55. It may be that the un-named director was being less than articulate when he made his comment, and will say he merely mis-spoke and has been taken out of context.

    So here is an excellent opportunity for the directors, individually and collectively as a board to put that right and make their position clear given that they are obviously upset at Graham Spiers’s accusation.

    Or at the very least, since we know who the director is, it seems counter-productive from a TRFC PoV that he should remain silent.

    There are clever ways in which this whole thing could have been laid to rest without the sh1tstorm that has ensued. It’s just that nobody is doing clever – or they don’t want it put to bed.


  56. UTH
    The only way to put the brakes on this is for the Director & the club concerned is to issue a statement that they never put pressure on the Herald to sack anybody employed at their rag and particularly to withdraw advertising money if they didn’t ,I imagine this will be issued early Monday.
    ps,I have always had some imagination 


  57. The Rangers Football Club continuing to make friends along its journey…?!

    God help Scottish football next season.

    It’s well past ridiculous already – and could very easily become violent next season from a club out to settle some imaginary ‘old scores’.

    TRFC and its supporters have amply displayed how sensitive
    they are to the written word. What happens next season when they are taunted mercilessly by fed up punters from opposing clubs?

    And no ‘governing’ bodies to try and defuse a potentially volatile season with TRFC in the top league…


  58. The RST really are full of themselves. Spiers is a liar…no Rangers man would say they like the BB song, no, wait, thats not right, no Rangers man would say they dont like the BB song, no, wait, that means Spiers is telling the truth…no Rangers man would admit they love the BB song if Spiers was present…yes, thats it.

    The more i hear of these people the more i think of the Judean Peoples Front. A committee of simpletons. Solidarity brothers!


  59. Way back when Rangers Football Club died and the infamous zombie / clone / newco was spawned, I remember there was a hell of a lot of conversation here about what the future would look like with the spivs dependent on appealing to the lowest common denominator with the knuckledragging hordes.
    Fast forward to this last week or so.
    The depths to which the Scottish establishment and media are prepared to descend in order to nurture the misbegotten zombie club knows no bounds it would appear. Is there a limit?
    By their actions this week, the current board of the Ibrox club have showed themselves to be every bit as desperate and cowardly in the face of their sectarian thug-fans.
    I know there are decent Rangers fans out there. I know because some are family, more are friends.
    However, this last week has reaffirmed, once again, that Scotland would simply be a better place to live if their club ceased to exist.
    I wish there was a middle road on this. There isn’t. When faced with fascist bullyboys you either call it for what it is and take a stand or accept that you are on the run from them.
    It is past time for Scotland and Scottish football to take that stand.
    Rangers are a cancer in our society, a blight that must be eradicated entirely.
     


  60. tykebhoy 31st January 2016 at 1:56 pm #Cat NR1 here you go.  http://www.newsquest.co.uk/portfolio/our-titles/  Easr Anglian geography isn’t a strong point but Suffolk’s Harwich appears to be the nearest place to you with a newsquest title
    =================
    Sorry Tykebhoy, but Harwich is in EBC’s county rather than our near neighbours, being south of the Stour/Orwell estuary. At least there’s nothing in Thomas Paine’s county on the list.


  61. Just a thought!
    A newspaper appears to have issued a statement on behalf of one of its journalists that is at odds with his current position on the matter. 
    The statement – that he accepted that an article he had written some time ago was untrue – has caused the journalist’s reputation for honesty to be harmed. 
    Regardless of the merits of the original matter, if the journalist did not express the sentiment that was attributed to him by the newspaper, one would expect said journalist to be seeking damages for the defamation.
    He would also, I expect, be seeking a retraction of the newspaper’s false statement.
    As I say, just a thought.


  62. Way back when Rangers Football Club died and the infamous zombie / clone / newco was spawned, I remember there was a hell of a lot of conversation here about what the future would look like with the spivs dependent on appealing to the lowest common denominator with the knuckledragging hordes.Fast forward to this last week or so.The depths to which the Scottish establishment and media are prepared to descend in order to nurture the misbegotten zombie club knows no bounds it would appear. Is there a limit?By their actions this week, the current board of the Ibrox club have showed themselves to be every bit as desperate and cowardly in the face of their sectarian thug-fans.I know there are decent Rangers fans out there. I know because some are family, more are friends.However, this last week has reaffirmed, once again, that Scotland would simply be a better place to live if their club ceased to exist.I wish there was a middle road on this. There isn’t. When faced with fascist bullyboys you either call it for what it is and take a stand or accept that you are on the run from them.It is past time for Scotland and Scottish football to take that stand.Rangers are a cancer in our society, a blight that must be eradicated entirely.
    ========================
    I agree with all of that, apart from the last sentence.
    Rangers as we knew it as a football club are dead.
    The cancer is a something far more insidious, unfortunately.
    Just ask Graham Spiers, as he was a fan of the former Rangers FC.


  63. John Clark 31st January 2016 at 2:02 pm #The Cat NR1 31st January 2016 at 1:48 pm ‘….but is it possible for someone to source a full list of titles please?I and I’m sure many others demand to know the names.’ ________ This link might help. http://www.newsquest.co.uk/portfolio/our-titles/
    ===============
    Cheers JC.
    That wasn’t quite the list of hard-hitting titles that I anticipated.
    I’d heard of the Argus(Brighton), Telegraph & Argus (Bradford) and and Oxford Mail, but the rest seem like advert sheets very much like our local weekly freebie.
    I’ll check out Stretford, Urmston Messenger and Crewe & Nantwich Guardian with a local contact, but I can’t believe that there is any journalistic freedom at threat in those publications.


  64. I know this is an impossibility but…
    If a director of Rangers said what it is alleged that he said and his club has now threatened a newspaper with legal action to cover it up, shouldn’t the SPFL be investigating whether Rangers is bringing the game into disrepute?


  65. Amidst all the Herald chat let us not forget the BBC are still in dispute with Rangers. Sportsound on Saturday carried goal updates only from their game against Falkirk with no reporter present. The reason for this dispute of course is Rangers objected (for the 2nd time) to a BBC reporter reporting hard facts which Rangers apparently didn’t want spoken about. The first time this happened the BBC had a meeting with Rangers, agreed a resolution, then refused to publicly declare what that resolution was. Given the Herald situation the BBC simply can’t afford to concede an inch this time. If the publicly funded behemoth of a national broadcaster capitulates then we might as well not have football in Scotland. Any ‘resolution’ with Rangers this time has to be made public, and it can only be that Rangers have to accept the same critical reporting and analysis every other club gets. It’s the least we deserve for our licence fee. Any ‘resolution’ with Rangers which remains a secret will simply reduce their football coverage to North Korean levels.


  66. Much has been said about Mr Spiers’ article. Does anyone have a copy?
    I did see that the director supposedly concerned, was named on one of the TRFC sites, but have no recollection of the actual “offending” article.


  67. parttimearab 31st January 2016 at 9:26 pm #Allyjambo 31st January 2016 at 9:05 I’m not sure that a person being sued has to prove anything, rather the person doing the suing has to show that, in this case, Spiers, is lying.Sorry Ally J but I’m pretty certain that the burden of proof in a libel trial is on the defendant, albeit on the civil basis of balance of orobabilityBest detail I can dredge up is from Wikipedia;
    A defamatory statement is presumed to be false unless the defendant can prove its truth. Furthermore, to collect compensatory damages, a public official or public figure must prove actual malice (knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth).[citation needed] A private individual must only prove negligence (not using due care) to collect compensatory damages.[citation needed] To collect punitive damages, all individuals must prove actual malice.Happy for the more knowledgeable to correct of course.
    ————
    Thanks for corecting my misconception, though I wasn’t all that sure I had it right at the time of writing.

    There would still be the need to show ‘actual malice’, and, I’m sure, argue that what GS said was defamatory, which would require more than to say ‘he said I liked a song, and that’s not true.’ In truth, I do not believe it is a case that could be won without upsetting a great many bears and doing more self-harm in the process.

    The kind of question I am sure would be asked of both the board and the individual member is, ‘can you advise the court of what steps have been taken to eradicate this song from games involving your club and point to statements condemning the song itself?’ For, as far as I’m aware, the club has only ever requested fans cease to sing it because they might damage the club, not because of what it says or stands for.

    One question I ‘m sure would be asked is, ‘have you ever sung the song, yourself?’


  68. Correction to my earlier post.
    An advertiser was named, not the director concerned.
    Apologies.


  69. The Cat NR1 1st February 2016 at 12:45 am 
    Thanks the Cat.  I did say East Anglian geography wasn’t a strength.13

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