Journey’s End?

ByTrisidium

Journey’s End?

It has taken a year longer than predicted, but a critical appraisal of  TRFC’s progress through the lower leagues must include recognition of the improvements on the playing field made under the new manager Mark Warburton. SFM usually precludes lengthy discussion on subjective issues like relative abilities of players and managers and referees, but on this subject, and by any objective standard, that is a given.

It is therefore right that he and his players should receive the congratulations of us all at SFM.

It has to be said that, despite the pitfalls, man-traps and honey-pots that remain to be successfully negotiated by the Rangers board, they have implemented their own stark version austerity, contrary to their rhetoric, whilst managing the expectations of their supporters. Perhaps some of what we have come to term “reasonable” Rangers fans would argue that the lack of humility still evident in the demeanour of the TRFC board is an essential part of managing those fans whilst imposing the austerity package on them.

Much like a political party conference, a football board has to play to it’s core support as well as the rest of the country.

How that will pan out is anybody’s guess, just like the random bagatelle that is the “TRFC in Court” saga.

There is also the existential problem to deal with. Many TRFC fans bought into the ‘same club’ myth at the outset, not because they actually believed it, but because it suited them, and because it served as an understandable GIRUY to the rest of us. With the passage of time, the suspension of disbelief, even in that constituency, is now complete and arguably irreversible. The problem for them is that the rest of have not subscribed to that rather bizarre set of contradictions. No other club has to have the “company that operates” prefix. Nor does any other club compel observers to skirt around the facts and search for a form of words acceptable to both sides of a mutually exclusive argument.  In short, and existentially, the new Rangers don’t fit into the same kind of comfortable groove that other clubs do.

All of these problems for the new club, and many more, will exercise our minds to a greater or lesser extent moving forward, depending on how sensitive our outrage thresholds are to the various legal and Jungian issues. However we at SFM need to focus our sights on those whose maladministration of football gave rise to those problems in the first place – the SFA, SPFL, and by extension, the clubs – all of them.

Here are some facts;

  1. The SFA award clubs a licence to participate in UEFA competitions.
  2. The licence is only to be awarded if the applicant club has no unpaid tax debts.
  3. Both the club and the SFA have responsibility to notify UEFA of any debts (belt and braces routine in case the club ‘forgets’ to notify the SFA).
  4. In 2011, one club applied for and was awarded a UEFA licence.
  5. That club had accepted debts to HMRC – which were outstanding and overdue.
  6. These facts have been in the public domain since 2012,and were brought to the attention of ALL clubs in Scotland as well as the SFA.
  7. Nothing has been done by any club, or the SFA, to investigate the claim at #5
  8. SFA Chief Executive Stewart Regan, when asked by an SFM member what he would do if these claims could be substantiated, said; “Nothing!”
  9. All clubs will be within a few weeks, issuing season ticket renewal forms.

The story contained in points 6 and 7 above is a lengthy and protracted one.

From sources inside two clubs I have been informed that the problem here is subversive and obsessive fans, who don’t represent the vast body of fans generally. On points 1-5, my sources refused to comment. Conversations with SFA officials and print journalists yield the same reaction, with the addition that it is “just Celtic fans obsessed with Rangers” making the claims.

The lesson, if there is one worthy of the name, is that the bearers of the message need to attacked, and the message itself ignored. We could speculate why that is, but that would be to fall into the trap, taking our eye off the ball.

Perhaps I am being naïve, but my inference is that the SFA and clubs have no intention of doing anything about what was at best incompetence on an unbelievable scale, or at worst corruption. A source at Celtic Park  was complaining in victim-like fashion to SFM that many Celtic fans were threatening to close their season book accounts over this issue, and that Rangers might have 45,000 SBs next season whilst Celtic could be down to as low as 20,000.

It had never occurred to him that actually supporting an investigation into SFA malpractice would add another 10,000 to the SB takeup.

Overall, the clubs and the SFA want us to believe that an investigation into this licensing issue is a Celtic or Rangers thing. It is neither of those.

An investigation, even if finds that corruption or incompetence has taken place cannot harm Rangers – old or new. There are no titles to strip here. The licence has been used and thrown away, so it cannot be “un – awarded”.

The only people who have anything to lose out of this are those individuals who allowed it to happen – those who our clubs seem so keen to protect.

More importantly, an investigation may be the catalyst for changes in procedures at the SFA to ensure that rigorous accountability is enforced -accountability that the clubs are eager to avoid.

Are we wrong? I hope we are not foolish enough to imagine that everything we believe is set in stone. I am confident that we are correct in our assumptions and in our interpretation of the facts, but please, let’s hear the counter-argument. Thus far, not one word of rebuttal save the usual invective reserved for the messenger has been uttered.

So what do we do? For me it is simple. If we really love our sport, and do nothing, the sport is lost to us completely and irrevocably.

If our view that sporting integrity has been killed off by those in charge of the game is correct, we lose nothing by embarking on a season ticket boycott. However by doing so we may awaken those in charge to the realities of our power as fans and prioritise in their minds the need to listen to what we say.

My view? if they ignore us, they can take their industry that they pretend is sport, and put it somewhere away from my reach. I neither want it nor need it.

If enough of us feel the same way, we WILL get a clean game. If we are as few as the MSM claim we are, at least we will have freed ourselves from a bent one.

I won’t be buying any more season books until I see these issues addressed. It certainly is tough love, but it is the only way for me.  And it is driven by love – a love of the game I spent decades supporting, thinking that on the whole it was played on a level playing field. Certainly not driven by a sneering disregard for truth and integrity and a worship of acquisition.

Maybe it’s not just the end of Rangers’ journey then. Certainly if it’s not the end of ours, we find ourselves at a crossroads. The fans, the clubs, and Rangers too. The decision we make over the next few months may determine the future of our clubs, our sport, our Saturday afternoons.

I can tell you this though. Even when the dark facts are laid before us starkly as this, and when football is at the mercy of those who really do hate sport for its own sake, it is worth mentioning the common thread of decency and purpose we have all shared here on SFM, the friendships we have forged, and the love of football we have demonstrated.

About the author

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,108 Comments so far

pauln84Posted on12:38 pm - Apr 28, 2016


I seldom post but felt the need today having seen the latest update from the requisitioners and Jimmci’s post outlining a complete U-turn on renewing based on a meeting with JPT and PL.
Nothing I have read yesterday or today changes my position to walk away from the game for good at the end of this season. As somebody pointed out, we don’t know who Jimmci is so either have to take his/her response at face value or with some suspicion. Given everything that has gone before on this issue, I fall down on the latter particularly because of the lack of specifics involved. If there is a key piece of information that would convince many supporters to renew then it is not in the club’s interest to withhold it.
On the other hand if Jimmci did indeed meet with PL then Jimmci is to be commended for persistence and PL for meeting with a fan. I always have the impression he only meets with carefully handpicked fans who then relay his message, eg CQN. But rather than meeting with individual fans, PL would be better served telling us all what he discussed with Jimmci, either via a club statement or an accompanying letter to renewal forms.
Lack of transparency is a huge part of the issue that the Res12 guys are trying to deal with and while I understand that they can’t come on here and tell us 100% of what is going on, I really haven’t seen anything that convinces me Res12 isn’t just being delayed until it falls.
I greatly admire the requisitioners for their persistence, dedication and understanding of the situation (something that is well beyond me) but based on information available and tone of some recent posts I fear it is doomed to failure.
I sympathise with the position Celtic are in (the biggest obstacle may be that they are flying solo) but I cannot continue to have any interest in a club that just rolls over and accepts they’ve been cheated. I’ve already withdrawn any financial support of the club and the next few weeks are crucial for my continued interest in the game.

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ianagainPosted on12:47 pm - Apr 28, 2016


I do hope SARS documents have been verified. They have form for issuing dodgy get out of jail cards in SA
 In fact some SARS personnel have been removed in the past for this.

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tayredPosted on1:05 pm - Apr 28, 2016


PAULN84APRIL 28, 2016 at 12:38 

 I sympathise with the position Celtic are in (the biggest obstacle may be that they are flying solo) but I cannot continue to have any interest in a club that just rolls over and accepts they’ve been cheated. I’ve already withdrawn any financial support of the club and the next few weeks are crucial for my continued interest in the game.

 

Paul, I agree with virtually everything you write apart from this wee caveat at the bottom of your message. Now, I’d love my club to come out and say it like it is, it is however abundantly clear they won’t. Like most other clubs it seems they seem to have been convinced by this armageddon crap and having lost one so-called cash cow the last thing they were ever going to do was put themselves in a position where they would be seen to antagonise the other half of that er… cow. But, if Celtic were to have shown some bottle I think there would have been some form of stampede of other clubs, bringing their own cows (or per chance sheep) to assist in circling the wagons to fight the nonsense being spouted by those varmints at the SFA and TRFC/RIFC/Sevco. However, they were never going strike out into uncharted territories by themselves. 

Other than wishing I hadn’t started this god-damned cow analogy, my belief is that the time for such action was a long time ago.  The interesting thing is that both of those once mighty cash-cows now appear to be in bad health, one undoubtedly reliant on loans from rich well-wishers to stay alive, the other treating its fan-base with such contempt that they are staring in the face of some level of walkout by season ticket holders. The protracted silence of the collective boards throughout this country may yet come back to send them all to the knackery.

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ThomTheThimPosted on1:17 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Since this whole saga began, I have maintained a view regarding Celtic’s position in the affair.
I believe that the club has only two options which would prove that they are not complicit in or condoning the SFA’s stance.
They could either seek entry to another league,like Derry City did, when it was apparent that security issues in the North made it a dangerous environment for them.
Or,
Just close the door and say ,”sod this for a game of sodjers”; like Belfast Celtic, for similar reasons.
As neither option is really viable, then unless they unilaterally declare war on the SFA, a battle they really can’t win, they will have to keep going, even under protest, and be seen to be complicit in the charade.
This will cause many people of principle, whose self respect will not allow themselves to be exploited by an immoral Association, to desert the club.
If other clubs’ supporters accept the status quo, then the game in Scotland is truly finished. 
BC or DC.

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John ClarkPosted on1:59 pm - Apr 28, 2016


I checked in at Parliament House at 9.50 this morning. 3 of the professional journos were present outside Court 11. The word was that MASH had made a late application to withdraw their petition for Judicial Review. That application could not just go through on paper, but a judge had to formally give the nod..
So we hung about until 10.40 when, with a whole horde of bewigged people who had similarly been hanging about waiting for their own cases to be called, we we were admitted into the relatively small ( four benches only, each capable of seating perhaps about 8 people. The front bench is for Counsel only, the second is for associated legal folk, and the third and fourth for us, the plebs)
All of the bewigged folk (apart from two who were in their places in the front) took up places against the side walls, while the Clerk of Court asked one or two how long they expected their business to last, presumably to sort them into  some kind of order.
Mr Dunlop , for the SFA, said ‘half-an-hour”, another guy said ‘forty minutes’ and there was a wee joke about the ‘bidding war’ , which is won by the guy who gives the shortest time and gets to go first.
Very quickly, Lord Bannatyne ( for it was he)  dealt with four other cases ( each lasting only about a couple of minutes), before the MASH business was begun at 10.50.
Others have already reported that, of course, the Petition was withdrawn, so I have no ‘news’ to give. It happens that I have to do some other things this afternoon, but, for anyone interested, I’ll do my report later and send it to SFM for BP to put on the blog if he wishes.

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Jungle JimPosted on1:59 pm - Apr 28, 2016


The latest post on this blog is titled Journey’s End and I’m afraid it might prove prophetic in a way the writer hadn’t envisaged. Every time we think there might be an opportunity for some cold hard truths to see the light of day our hopes are dashed.
It does seem to me that now that the new version of Rangers are heading back to the top flight there is even less appetite than before to seek truth and justice, save from a few hardy souls on here and elsewhere.
That the new Rangers will implode at some point is in my opinion close to certain.  However I hold out no hope whatsoever that anyone in the SFA or SPFL will ever be brought to account for anything they have done, including the issues concerning Res 12.
Phil Mac and John James will continue to bluster for a while longer but those gullible enough to fall for their utterances will get fewer and fewer.  Sadly this blog won’t survive much longer either and that’s a shame.
I hope I’m wrong and good luck to you all, I fear you will need it.

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Methilhill StrollerPosted on2:52 pm - Apr 28, 2016


The fact that SARS probably gave what was effectively a Tax Clearance Certificate is nothing new in RSA or elsewhere on that continent. All it means is that the person is currently up to date with their tax returns. What it does not say is that he previously had 41 convictions and if he had not paid the 40m fine he would have been in jail for 82 years. The SFA lawyer saying there was never any chance of DCK going to jail was talking out of his arsenal IMHO.
And I notice JD said the SFA Lawyer mentioned that SFA fit and Proper person criteria were confidential???? So basically they can, as they have done so many times, and no doubt did so in the case of DCK, make it up on a case by case basis and then tell everyone they did it properly without ever having to show such evidence to the clubs, fans, or general public, unless so directed by a court. The fact that MA’s lawyer did not challenge any of this convinces me that another deal has been struck, the SFA instructed DCK to provide the required information under threat of whatever, and the parties sorted it out between themselves and screw the lot of us.
So another day goes by and another case comes to nothing and expectation and enthusiasm drops through the five floors below again. The problem with Hillsborough was that fans in those days were treated like they didn’t matter and the police attempt to blame hooligans and drunk fans was just typical of what they and the establishment thought of us; and then they tried to use it as an excuse to cover up their own mistakes. Thankfully the Liverpool fans and families of the 96 got what they deserved after 27 years of battling the establishment and at least there is now an admission of the massive cover up with the police and media implicated, and no doubt people in Government as well. Let’s hope, like Kenny implied, those responsible are trembling about what might come down the tunnel in their general direction. I say might because I will only be convinced that proper corrective and disciplinary action has been taken when I see it. We can also dream that a similar fate will befall the SFA, SPFL and the MSM but I am not holding my breath. 
It also cannot be sufficient for a club like CFC to think a meeting with the odd shareholder/supporter here and there is sufficient – they have had AGM’s and other opportunities to send a clear unequivocal message out to all CFC fans, and the rest of the clubs, about what they have or are still doing about res 12 and yet have not done so. I suppose they are hoping the people they speak to will spread the message but in my view it is again symptomatic of CFC and other clubs taking the punters for a ride. I have seen many comments here and elsewhere by fans saying that if they give up ST’s then others (mainly Sevco) will benefit and win more trophies. Well that is their right but they should also accept that if they pay up then nothing will change and they might as well watch WWE because the game will remain fixed. Directors are only in it for the money and will not wake up until they are hurt in the pocket. If thousands of CFC fans do not renew ST’s then a clear message will be sent and if it levels the playing field, and more of our diddy clubs win trophies, then they get exactly what they deserve.
I can see the Fraudco trial going the same way as all the other cases this year, and SFA/UEFA letting Sevco into the Europa Cup if they beat Hibs in the final. The only disappointment is that after the final East Fife will not be the only club outside of Scotland’s top division to win the Scottish Cup 05. Nothing would surprise us and anything different will come as a surprise to the system. In the meantime there are still no compelling reasons to put any money into any club’s pockets, no matter how well they do, until they extract the digit and get rid of the administrators ruining the game for all of us.

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John ClarkPosted on3:15 pm - Apr 28, 2016


I tried to make a minor amendment to my post of a few minutes ago, but was not allowed to because, apparently, my amendment access was seen as ‘spam’.
I clicked on the edit button with about two and half minutes to go, changed ‘having’ to have’ clicked on ‘save’ and the bloody wee message came up, and the amendment was not saved.
Am I doing, like the SFA, something wrong?

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goosygoosyPosted on3:16 pm - Apr 28, 2016


PAULN84
APRIL 28, 2016 at 12:38
Nothing I have read yesterday or today changes my position to walk away from the game for good at the end of this season
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Me too (+2 others)
Goodbye CFC

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normanbatesmumfcPosted on3:29 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Jungle JimApril 28, 2016 at 13:59
……………………………………………………………
I know what you mean JJ and I believe that is exactly what the money-gabbing cowards in the Hampden bunker have been hoping for all along.

I for one will never accept these lies as truth and for as long as I an draw breath, I will challenge any untrue version of events.

After THE cup semi, (there was only one after all) I had to take a fair bit of ribbing from my friends in the flat earth society. However this is always good humoured banter and I soundly congratulated them on the achievement of a four year old club reaching the final.

I may sound like a long playing record at times, but my persistence will never wane.

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ChristyboyPosted on3:37 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Must admit I am a little deflated today. It’s like The rangers and the SFA are untouchable. So far no-one has scared them and no-one appears to be able or willing to really look into this debacle and have the clout to really lay all bare.
        I think Methil is a touch wrong and that the Fraudco case will go ahead as it will red flag someone  to blame and having no-one else in the picture, there will be one guy left and one space in the gallows. Then the real spleen-venting will begin where he who is without sin will matter not and all previously perceived transgresors will without shame, pile in on the frenzy.  
    I am reminded of the phrase that Mr Cameron et al used in the early years of austerity that is suited to our football governing bodies in that ” we are all in it together”. Well you know what, never a truer word was spoken. YOU ARE ALL IN ON IT, TOGETHER !!!

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AuldheidPosted on3:40 pm - Apr 28, 2016


The matter of SFA accountability is a factor that has meant much dragging of heels on Res12 which is still very much on the go.
Just how unrepresentative of the Scottish football supporter the SFA are can be seen from this release byby The Scottish Football Supporters Association about how the SFA are operating to keep their cosy shop closed.

 The SFA out of touch with reality? By Steve McGregor
 If you scan the SFA website a small by significant press release pops out at you.
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2565&newsCategoryID=3&newsID=16272
 It refers to the fact that the SFA are now funding a fans operation through support for Supporters Direct Scotland who they have employed to deliver a development programme for Supporter Liaison Officers (SLO) in Scotland. Now that is all well on good but it follows on the SFA recently appointing the same organisation to do their annual survey and the even more bizarre appointment of this organisation on to it’s Council where it is meant to represent fans.
 For all intents and purposes what we are seeing here is the SFA endorsing, paying and facilitating a football business on the pretext that it is properly engaging with fans. This is even more fanciful when you find our that SDS is a branch office of a football business that has its Board in London. I couldn’t see fans in England being happy if the Scottish Football Supporters Association was funded to do some work for the FA in England! 
So lets look at Supporters Direct in a bit more detail and try and work out just why the SFA want to cozy up to them. The are registered in London with a Board made up of English, Welsh and Rugby League members. They have a Scottish branch office run by a West Ham fan who doesn’t follow Scottish Football and it is an organisation that only represent members of Trusts. So if you are an individual fan or your fans or supporters organisation is not part of it you don’t have a voice.
 So it is not Scottish, not run by Scottish football fans, is not independent and is representative of only a tiny minority of fans who are Trust members. What it is of course is an organisation that will NOT offer any criticism, evaluation , monitoring or ever hold OUR football authorities to account. That of course makes them fantastic partners for the SFA and a useless toothless operation that will never take fans issues seriously.
 We as lovers of fitba have seen the shocking Governance of football from FIFA and UEFA and here at home it has hardly been sweetness and joy over the past 5 years. Sadly, the response from Hampden Park is to ignore the only National Fans organisation ,the SFSA ,that I am many others joined over the past year. The organisation has modelled itself on the FSF Football Supporters Association which has a great track record of challenging the football authorities in England. Ironically the SFSA is also a member of Fans Europe where the SLO programme emanates.
 I joined the SFSA because I felt ignored and undervalued as a football customer and I was delighted to do something about it. It is a sad refection on those who run our game that even when we have a strong albeit young fans organisation backed by thousands they choose to ignore us. It is time the SFA woke up to the fact that we deserve better governance and their efforts to develop an in house fans organisation that they influence /control is just not a credible way forward.
 
 
 

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ReiverPosted on3:53 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Jimmci @ 1119

Let me put this to you.

This site is all about acting to right the wrongs that have happened in football here over the past decade and that is clear to anyone who spends time here. It is also clear that there are quite a number here who have spent a lot of time, effort and money to move things forward. I am a latecomer to the action but know that time and effort that I have contributed must by multiplied many times to get anywhere that contributed by Audheid and the Res 12 guys.
You have posted on here informing us of your request for and success in achieving a meeting on the subject with Celtic. That gives the impression that you are doing it for the cause that we all support but after the supposed meeting it becomes, for you, a personal thing. Something that is between you and PL. A complete turnaround that suggests that all you wanted was someone to give you personal reassurance. That makes a complete mockery of the work others have put in. So what are we to do? Take the word of some anonymous person, roll up the bedding and head for home reassured that there IS no problem.

No, not me. There is something about what you recount that does not ring true.

But of course what you say could all be true so should I be happy for you because you know everything is all OK? Nope, definitely not, because you do not care that your silence means others will continue to put in the effort despite you having information that would remove the need.

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jimboPosted on4:08 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Reiver,  Do you not think it is time to draw a line under this?    I don’t entirely disagree with much that you say  but it’s becoming uncomfortable reading.

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ReiverPosted on4:27 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Jimbo

I’ve said my piece and I hope that it HAS been uncomfortable reading.
We are all interested in achieving a goal here and the actions of the likes Jimmci is no different to the secretive actions of the SFA and the clubs. My reactions to them doing so is to attempt to make uncomfortable reading available to them wherever I possibly can.

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tangoedPosted on4:39 pm - Apr 28, 2016


JIMMCIAPRIL 28, 2016 at 11:19

“to be able meet with the Company Secretary to view legal correspondence between the Club, the SFA’s legal team and UEFA; some of which is very, very recent.”
——————————————————————————————————————
jimmic,can you expand on the above sentence from your post,has there been discussion between celtic and uefa?

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Methilhill StrollerPosted on4:57 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Christboy

I am not saying the Fraudco case will not go ahead, just that even if it does the result could well end up the same as all the recent court cases with the “hoped for” result not being forthcoming. We all hope for some red flag to come up and wobble the establishment but recent events don’t make it an expectation worth backing.

On a separate subject I have just heard that Paul Lambert is resigning from Blackburn Rovers at the end of this season. Obviously he was unlikely to do so unless he has somewhere to go – like Celtic? Maybe not the high profile manager some would hope for but……………who knows?

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AuldheidPosted on5:19 pm - Apr 28, 2016


pauln84April 28, 2016 at 12:38  
I seldom post but felt the need today having seen the latest update from the requisitioners and Jimmci’s post outlining a complete U-turn on renewing based on a meeting with JPT and PL. Nothing I have read yesterday or today changes my position to walk away from the game for good at the end of this season. As somebody pointed out, we don’t know who Jimmci is so either have to take his/her response at face value or with some suspicion. Given everything that has gone before on this issue, I fall down on the latter particularly because of the lack of specifics involved. If there is a key piece of information that would convince many supporters to renew then it is not in the club’s interest to withhold it. On the other hand if Jimmci did indeed meet with PL then Jimmci is to be commended for persistence and PL for meeting with a fan. I always have the impression he only meets with carefully handpicked fans who then relay his message, eg CQN. But rather than meeting with individual fans, PL would be better served telling us all what he discussed with Jimmci, either via a club statement or an accompanying letter to renewal forms. Lack of transparency is a huge part of the issue that the Res12 guys are trying to deal with and while I understand that they can’t come on here and tell us 100% of what is going on, I really haven’t seen anything that convinces me Res12 isn’t just being delayed until it falls. I greatly admire the requisitioners for their persistence, dedication and understanding of the situation (something that is well beyond me) but based on information available and tone of some recent posts I fear it is doomed to failure. I sympathise with the position Celtic are in (the biggest obstacle may be that they are flying solo) but I cannot continue to have any interest in a club that just rolls over and accepts they’ve been cheated. I’ve already withdrawn any financial support of the club and the next few weeks are crucial for my continued interest in the game.
==========================
I have picked out your post but it is representative of a number expressing something I want to say personally (and knowing my fellow requistitioners they might too.)
It is pleasing to read the appreciation from others about the effort expended on Res12, but my motives at the end of the day deep down are selfish. They are simply I want to keep being an involved supporter of Celtic but they have to reflect what it is I thought I was supporting, i.e. a football club that was decent, ethical and would strive to do the right thing even when it was difficult to do.
Many of us have I’m sure been faced with difficulties in our life where the temptation was to walk away rather than face our responsibilities, but to do so had our conscience telling us it was wrong. In that situation many have made the right choice, the loving choice to do what is right. I think that many of us want to see this reflected in the football club we have given our allegiance to.
I believe there are many more supporters of decency around who feel the same way. In a purely Celtic context where TRFC are the rivals I have never supported Celtic or defined my support for them as the other side of a hate relationship. In fact if hate comes into it I hate what I am turned into when we face each other. I experienced it as 15 year old at Ibrox when I split company with my Ranger’s supporting pals to go to the Celtic end and they went to the Rangers end. As the songs of hate began I thought that’s my friends over there, we play football in Bell St every night, I don’t hate them, this isn’t who I am or who I want to be. I’ve never been back. One cup  final at Hampden, but it just wasn’t for me.
Where I think Celtic have misjudged things is in not realising perhaps not so much in numbers terms (although the recent voicing of desire to support Res12 suggests the numbers are larger than was realised ) but in depth of feeling terms, how much it matters that Celtic reflect what the support want to see when they look in the mirror. Something decent, something honourable, something that for all its human frailties nevertheless reflects an ideal of what is right.
What seems to be emerging now is that for many Celtic supporters going back to the days before 2012 is simply a bridge they are no longer prepared to cross, not just because of the bitterness such meetings cause but because when we/Celtic had a chance to show what we thought Celtic stood for and to do the right thing, which would totally change the attitude and culture of Scottish football (which the SMSM fear), it was blown.
Well not quite, I think that realisation is dawning that those days will not return. That rather than gates rise they will fall because those running Scottish football have disconnected with the feelings of those who are its life blood. (see my previous on the SFSA release)
I think more and more supporters, and I include the Rangers supporters of my younger days and their sons/daughters whom my sons and daughter have played with and against, simply will walk away rather than be portrayed as what they are not by a media whose income depends on a false perception of who we all are.
Its not just are we being asked to pay to watch a game where we think the rules don’t matter and is corruptly governed, its why should I put up with something that fails to reflect the best in me and us and depends on highlighting the worst in me/us to sell TV rights to a world who, lets face it, are not watching for the quality of the football.
So that is why Res12 is important to me. As a Celtic supporter I want to be able to keep supporting and I know I’m not alone. That is what I believe will see Res12 passed. It was not voted down, it was adjourned and it can still be passed. What happens after that is in the hands of UEFA acting on what the evidence tells them, but in getting there those of us who feel as I do about not just our club but also our game will have told the SFA  (and media) – you got us wrong.

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fan of footballPosted on5:25 pm - Apr 28, 2016


So ashley drops his case against the SFA because Mr king pulls a letter from an envelope the day before the hearing,
09
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
What if the SFA and king aproached Ashley a couple of days ago and asked what it would take for him to drop the case .is That possible ?.
IMO it’s just as possible as the above 
So ,I wonder if we will see Mr Ashley doing well in the not so distant future from his involvement with the new club .
Who Knows 202020

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BarcabhoyPosted on7:59 pm - Apr 28, 2016


I can’t tell you for certain whether Peter Lawell met with a fan over Res 12, I can tell you for certain he’s been kind of busy over the last 10 days and has been out of the office a lot as he attempts to recruit a new manager. 
I doubt he’s giving much time to anything else at the moment. 

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RPMcMurphyPosted on8:19 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Barcabhoy
I don’t know for a second what he’s been busy with but I can tell you that he could appoint Mourinho with Pep as his number 2 and it won’t mean jack shit unless he delivers on Res 12 and calls out the whole “same club” pantomime.
Auldheid
I wish I had the time and skill to write in the way you just have above. Sums it up for me perfectly. (In spite of my comments above !)

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HomunculusPosted on8:21 pm - Apr 28, 2016


BARCABHOYAPRIL 28, 2016 at 19:59

===================

That makes sense, doing his job as Chief Executive Officer of the PLC, recruiting someone for the key management position.

Like you, I would imagine this is taking up the bulk of his time, as it is one of the most important decisions he will make this year.

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Long Time LurkerPosted on8:42 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Four years has been and gone, and a team called Rangers will shortly be playing in the SPL.
Over the last four years, I like many others, assumed that there would have been a pronouncement from a Court, or Tribunal etc. that laid out what many believe – that when liquidation proceedings started Rangers Football Club died.
In many ways, nothing has changed: the SMSM are still drawn to ‘Rangers’ like a moth to a flame; the SFA are still the same old SFA; Rangers naturally still hold the line that they are the same club – God, there is a possibility that a team called Rangers will be playing in Europe – which begs the tongue in cheek question, if they are the same club how can they get a European licence with a tax debt?
Like many I did not want blood – after Rangers FC went into liquidation, I was happy for the fans of Rangers to be able to support a team,playing in blue out of Ibrox – with the knowledge that as a liquidated club it would be a new entity with no history. Going bust is the price that is paid for not running a club correctly. God knows how many clubs across the land have scrimped and saved, with performances falling off of a cliff when there is no money in the pot to secure the services of a better class of player?
The fact that Rangers, the SFA and the SMSM have not changed one iota re ‘Rangers’ is one massive piss take. I get the sense that as the fact that on the surface nothing appears to have changes is angering many fans – to the extent that I would not be surprised if some Celtic share holders go the extra mile and seek judicial review as to why did the SFA give a European licence to a Club with tax debts.
I am increasingly of the view that the SFA and Rangers will be called to account – the anger is strong, and it appears to be getting stronger.

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RyanGoslingPosted on11:00 pm - Apr 28, 2016


Far from ever getting away from it, old club / new club seems to be a perennially underlying topic in almost every conversation here.
I understand it is fairly central to unraveling what went on in the collapse of Rangers and what has happened since. But I don’t see any suggestions for moving forward from it. It seems to me that a proportion of Rangers fans will never hear any suggestion that they are not the same club. A large number of fans of other clubs will never accept that they are.

I understand the factual arguments constantly put forward here on this issue, but I think we have reached a point where either we agree a way of moving forward amicably or the issue simply continues to fester. Or people here and elsewhere just give up, I guess. 

I will restate my own position, for what it’s worth, which is that I essentially see them as the same team but acknowledge the fact that they went bust and restarted four years ago. If to you that means we can’t claim the titles won previously, then so be it, I won’t argue with you as legally I am sure there is no reason to argue with you. However in my own mind and memory, I see it as the same team. It’s not legally enforceable and I won’t take you to court if you disagree with me, but I’m entitled to that view. You might say that is a ridiculous position I have taken. You might be right. But it really doesn’t both me that much. 

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GazKPosted on11:03 pm - Apr 28, 2016


If ever there was any doubt the SFA are in cahoots with the King regime then the performance today should remove that doubt.

one farce to another from Brysons interpretation of improper registrations to LNS enquiry to SFA ‘fit & proper’

the lack of will from Celtic (the team I support) with regards to Res12, EBT’s and improper registrations means I won’t be back, not this season not next season not ever. Nor will I pay to watch professional football in Scotland ever again. It’s all fine and well saying that Celtic have to wait until a complete and final verdict and until all routes of appeal have been exhausted, not that theyll do anything at that point anyway. 

But it regardless of the legality of EBT’s or not, it is neither here nor there. They were not disclosed to the SFA which is a breach of rules whether illegal or not. For Celtic to accept Brysons interpretation of these rules (which if I remember right would have to mean that improper registrations would have to be noticed during a game, as the rule breaches are only rule breaches when discovered, and no retrospective reversing of results would be applied) is absolutely shameful.

Faithful through and through? I’m afraid that’s been taken for granted too often.

heres a suggestion for a new Celtic anthem…
http://youtu.be/zYpDJw7fThU

Appreciate te all the amazing work you guys have done over these last few years. But I’m sorry to say that it now feels like flogging a dead horse. Rangers were the establishment club for a reason, and now it seems the reincarnation, Phoenix Rangers, or ‘The’ Rangers will carry on from where the liquidated basket case left off

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motor redPosted on11:52 pm - Apr 28, 2016


i wrote to my club a few weeks back on the whole fiasco including res12,guess what, i got the regan reply, NOTHING! . mr milne wants us to forget the past and move on, well that’s never going to happen. 
i shall forever remind people of the wrong doings in the game and hope many others will continue to do likewise.
”Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence”. 
christopher hitchens.

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on3:49 am - Apr 29, 2016


http://stv.tv/news/west-central/1352285-mike-ashley-wants-dave-king-fit-and-proper-reasons-made-public/

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on3:57 am - Apr 29, 2016


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14459164.Mike_Ashley_could_be_forced_to_pay_legal_bills_of_Rangers_chairman_Dave_King_and_the_SFA/

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upthehoopsPosted on4:47 am - Apr 29, 2016


SANNOFFYMESSSOITIZZAPRIL 29, 2016 at 03:49
http://stv.tv/news/west-central/1352285-mike-ashley-wants-dave-king-fit-and-proper-reasons-made-public/

The statement below may be posturing given that MASH know as well as we do that the SFA feel no need for public accountability on any matter. However, it also may mean there is something in there which vindicates the view many of us hold that King was never going to be refused no matter what. We deserve to be told. The other clubs especially, deserve to be told. 

This represents a significant victory for MASH and we believe there is a strong public interest in this information now also being made available by the SFA to all football fans.

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upthehoopsPosted on4:59 am - Apr 29, 2016


RYANGOSLINGAPRIL 28, 2016 at 23:00 4 25 Rate This
==============================
Ryan, most people on here agree with the essence of your argument, i.e Rangers fans will always see it as the same club. The fact remains though that there was no rules to allow the SFA to consider them the same club so we are entitled to ask why they just made up rules to allow that to happen. In my opinion the SFA can never have a position where Rangers are not considered the most successful club and if Rangers had started at year zero in 2012 then it is inevitable that Celtic would one day become the most successful club, and the new Rangers would never be able to overtake them. I do not believe the SFA could ever have accepted that. The most recent court case, even though dropped by Ashley, showed us to what extent the SFA are in bed with Rangers.

You are damned right things will continue to fester.

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fan of footballPosted on7:14 am - Apr 29, 2016


Ryan 
You may take the view that in your mind they are the same club and won’t challenge anyone saying the are not but that can’t be said of others who support the new club .
People have lost their jobs because The Rangers supporters and club want the truth rewritten .
That to me is unacceptable and there can never be any moving on until the intimidation is stopped and people are allowed to tell it as it is .

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HomunculusPosted on7:56 am - Apr 29, 2016


So let me get this straight, is Dave King fit and proper to run a football club or not.

“MASH notes that the SFA did not approve Dave King to be a director of the football club (The Rangers Football Club Limited, the body which has membership of the SFA), but instead only approved him as a director of the club’s holding company (Rangers International Football Club plc).
“We find it astonishing that Mr King talks and acts as if he runs Rangers, whilst at the same time his lawyers claim he is not a de facto director of The Rangers Football Club Limited.”

It would appear to me that the SFA have come up with a method of saying “No he isn’t”, whilst at the same time making it look like they have said “Yes he is”.

One is forced to wonder if they came up with that idea, or it was some sort of spin invented by someone else. Kind of like previous myth, the club didn’t die it was only the company.

Tangled webs and so forth.

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FinlochPosted on8:21 am - Apr 29, 2016


I posted yesterday on why Mr Desmond decided to see the poster here, Jimmci.
Jimmci subsequently picked me up on one point and I accept that his special audience with Peter wasn’t just because Mr Desmond gave Mr Lawwell a hard time during and after what Phil had already told us was a fractious board meeting on the 22nd.

Like Tom Hanks in the film Big when showered with facts about a really bad product launch justified with a whole lot of professional puffery I too feel like saying “I don’t get it”.

“I really don’t get it”.

We are being asked to believe that Peter met with one of us who happens to be a Celtic season book and shareholder, a real stakeholder and provided some compelling evidence of support and activity from Celtic for The Requisitioners and there was no confidentiality imposed.

Evidence according to our own Jimmci that is sufficiently reassuring to change his previously stated intention to walk away from being an attender.
Evidence however that Jimmci has decided should stay between Peter and Jimmci even though there are thousands of season book holders who should be in that loop.

If that really was the case then why is Mr Lawwell favouring one or two stakeholders when he knows he has many more?

Why is he through his efficient organisation not telling ALL his stakeholders and not just The Requisitioners but indeed the whole Celtic family?

I’m a little bit wary and would suggest that The Celtic Board really are out of touch with how they are representing the spirit of their club.

They are deeply complicit in where Scottish Football is today and out of touch with the heart of their fan base.

Like the SFA, the other clubs, and the Scottish MSM Messrs Lawwell, Desmond and the other puppets on their board desperately want us all to move on.
And especially not to dig too deep into their role 4 or 5 years back.

“Move on.
Its a wonderful new world.
Armageddon is over”.

“We have the return of Old Form derbies , we have the prospect of Paul Lambert as our new manager and he is a real Celtic man.
Talk about the war chest we’ll give him and the players he might sign to make us Champions League contenders”.

That should enough to keep you all chattering tonight in your pubs and clubs and hopefully these conversations will deafen the very real and growing alienation of key fans at the very core of the club. 

I could be wrong with my cynicism about this whole charade.
But I don’t think so.

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tayredPosted on8:53 am - Apr 29, 2016


RYANGOSLINGAPRIL 28, 2016 at 23:00

Ryan, fans are fans. They will believe what they want and I have no real problem with that (I’d probably feel much the same but I would have intense shame and embarrassment at the number of people shafted by and the unbelievable level of misbehaviour by the “previous” club). What I do have a problem with is the authorities allowing a lie to perpetuate unchecked or worse to actively nurture that lie in the hope that one day it is just accepted. The SFA/SMSM handbook could almost reference Herr Hitler in that one

‘If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.’ 

The authorities are supposed to ensure proper governance. They are supposed to state things as the are. Supposedly without fear or favour. The have failed, utterly and completely, with the apparent agreement of the vast majority of Scottish club boards. Go figure. The perpetuation of the “everybody hates us and we don’t care”, the sense of superiority and entitlement of “ra peepul” is something that really sticks in the throat of every decent fan of sport

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ReiverPosted on9:37 am - Apr 29, 2016


OK, so the press and TV reports give us the answer to MA’s retreat.

The SFA are pushing the old club and holding company are separate entities line and they accepted King as a Director of only the company. This was the same as MA being told that he was not allowed to have influence in the running of the club. We know that, under Scottish law, they are not separate entities but with respect to how an association does its business it is a different matter. For MA to win yesterday his lawyers would have to prove that the SFA were acting illegally in ignoring(not breaking) the law of the land in writing their articles of association in doing so he would have to separate out that these articles were put together or agreed to by every member club.
So King can only be attacked if he is caught picking or coaching the team, cutting the grass or becomes director of football.

Yet another ugly use of semantics within our legal system.

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ReiverPosted on9:47 am - Apr 29, 2016


Of course the idea that the SFA views the club/company separation as valid within its remit what right(or need) did they have in giving that King was Fit and Proper to run the company part. Surely it was none of their business under their own definition.

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wottpiPosted on9:57 am - Apr 29, 2016


RYANGOSLINGAPRIL 28, 2016 at 23:00
Sorry for repeating the argument but like Tayred and UTH  I and many others have no problem with fans believing the spirit of Rangers lives on in the team playing out of Ibrox today.

Hopefully the jibes going to and fro in workplaces between colleagues is just decent banter. 

The fact remains that the authorities have, as yet, failed miserably to provide any definitive guidance on how Rangers/T’Rangers are viewed.

People look at precedents and find 

Third Lanark – Gone completely after liquidation but spirit lives on years after, when a non professional side took up the name in 2007
Airdire – Gone after liquidation but returned as Clydebank re-branded
Grenta – Gone after liquidation but spirit lived on immediately in a non professional side.

However

Rangers – still the same club after liquidation.

The media had the club dead and buried.

Four years ago two clubs existed at the same time to be party to the Five Way agreement and all that went with membership status etc

The CEO of the SPFL has said legally it is the same clubs but the same organisation’s lawyers were arguing in their own ‘legal process’ about dates when the club ‘ceased to exist’

The CEO of the SFA says it is up to the fans to decide but his counsel, as even as of yesterday, appeared to indicate that not even a shareholder of a member club (or is that company!!) has the right to challenge the SFA. Therefore by what distorted view of reality do ordinary fans have the any power to say whether or not Rangers are the same club when we are told continually the SFA are all knowing and all powerful and that even the laws of the land have not caught up with regard to how clever they are in matters of metaphysics. They will not debate matters because everything they do is deemed confidential despite always talking about openness and transparency.

To be honest no-one cares what the fans think. The chants of ‘You’re not Rangers anymore’ and ‘Same old Rangers – always cheating’ will no doubt be sung with gusto by opposing fans in equal measure for years to come. Its a win-win for the fans of all other clubs in the barbed taunting stakes.

We do however expect more from those in charge of the game if people are even going to take the first step of moving forward.

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neepheidPosted on9:58 am - Apr 29, 2016


So Peter Lawell is very busy right now, seeking out a new manager. That’s not great forward thinking, considering that RD’s jaiket has been on the very shoogliest of pegs for at least 6 months now. Wasn’t there a module on contingency planning on any of your management courses, Peter?
It does seem quite surprising in such circumstances that he was recently prepared to spend 80 minutes addressing the concerns of a single stakeholder. At the rate of 80 minutes per seriously concerned stakeholder, he should have dealt with them all by next Easter, assuming there are 1000 or so, and he does almost nothing else.
Or he could issue a club statement today, setting out the points which jimcci was so impressed by. That would save a lot of time, and undoubtedly sell a lot more season tickets, than the frankly bizarre “one on one” approach.
And finally, if Peter Lawell thinks that a “marquee” management signing is going to entice the likes of me back into the fold, or placate those deeply angered by the clubs stance on Res12, then he is delusional.

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ReiverPosted on10:17 am - Apr 29, 2016


OK I need to ‘fess up here.

I am writing this post in my knees begging you to do what I ask.

OR

I am writing this holding a baseball bat with a look of extreme anger on my face.

Whichever one gets you guys to help in what we need to do and that is get the information out to the ordinary fan who still believes the game is straight.

I am not asking a lot of your time nor much of your money but your posts on here give the impression that you are offended enough by what we have witnessed that you should be willing to contribute much more. Unless of course you are all of the Jimmci mindset.

Go to
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_X7aVh2s6qcQTA5X0t5b1lwQ0U
and download the two busdrop pdfs. Print off a sheet(or more if you feel generous) of the one named busdropfront.Put the paper back in the printer so the other side gets printed on and print off busdropback. Cut the sheet into eight using the busdropback side as the guide and place the pieces in your jacket pocket. The next time you are out to the pub, the library, the supermarket or the chinese carry out leave some behind where others will pick them up. If you are car driver and feel that you can spare two or three quid then leave the car jump a bus for a couple of stops but leave behind on a seat or two a printout, get on another bus and do the same. Cross the road and get a couple of buses back repeating the exercise.

Ideally, the printouts should be on card(get it at the £1 shop) but paper will do. The message is the same.

To do this once will cost you no more than a fiver using one sheet but it has the potential to reach dozens of people. If you feel really strongly about the issue and have the time print off a number of sheets.

I have already apologised on here about the quality of the design of these attempts because I have no artistic or advertising background but I do feel certain that they are a lot better than what else is available and that is “nothing”.

There are no court cases, newspaper articles, pitch side ads or politicians standing up in parliament broadcasting the issues. There is only us so please pitch in.

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wottpiPosted on10:42 am - Apr 29, 2016


REIVER
APRIL 29, 2016 at 09:47

As I said above do you not appreciate that the SFA is all powerful and, like T’Rangers managers, are experts in all matters that come their way. Approving the appointment of people to the board of a PLC is but a simple manner for them.

Ashley seems to be calling the SFA out by saying they have not approved King as F&P to be a director of the ‘football club’.

IIRC King is not mentioned anywhere in relation to the running of The Rangers Football Club Ltd.
The five current Directors are Dickson, Gilligan, Murray, Park and Robertson.

So, on the surface (since a big play was made of it) Paul Murray would appear to have been given the F&P OK for the football club, despite being involved in the oldco but King, who was also involved, has not. Is it then the case that the tax dodging conviction does cause the SFA a degree of concern?

By making such a public statement Ashley must surely expect the SFA to respond to clarify matters or that the SMSM follow up on the story.

The tactic follows on from the MASH counsels reference to the SA courts view of DCK yesterday. The move is to try an publicly shame DCK and show him as a chancer who is calming and acting to be F&P, in footballing terms, when it is not true.

However I am not holding my breath for the SFA or the MSM to follow this up.

Sweep sweep.

Next move if nothing happens? Ashley gets someone to publish what he now knows anyway and takes his chances in court with regard to King and the SFA suing him for a breach of confidentiality?

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Cygnus X2Posted on10:51 am - Apr 29, 2016


So Mike Ashley is pointing at the smoke.  He seems pretty adamant that its there.

What caused the fire?

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ReiverPosted on11:50 am - Apr 29, 2016


WOTTPI

I totally agree with your points but they take us nowhere nearer to resolving the situation. The court cases etc have shown that knowing something and proving something have an uncrossable gap separating them. I considered trying to set up a crowd fund appeal to finance a private attack on this but quickly realised that the funding was the least of the problems. To pin the attack on something legally rock solid is not possible it has become clear. Does that mean we give up. Not as far as I’m concerned.
Many posters raise the very true point that the fans have the power to change things. It is not in their hands but in their feet. Walk away or threaten to walk, supported by proof that it will happen, will change minds at the top. But this time that is not easy.
In 2012 the fans forced the SFA, and the clubs because the top ones were in agreement, to first drop the idea of the new club’s entry in to the top division and later as an alternative into the second tier. So why can’t we do the same this time. The answer is that what we want to change can be kept hidden from the majority. In 2012 the SFA couldn’t keep their plans quiet, they couldn’t just start the season with the new club playing in the top league. I am sure they would have liked to but the action had to be public and 90% of the fans saw and most objected. The previous year they did what they are doing now and acted on the UEFA license by keeping the problems quiet. They got away with it.
So the lesson is clear. We need to educate ALL fans about what is actually happening. The media will not do it for us and neither will any of the clubs. We could put a call on here for all fans to boycott a certain weekend’s games or not buy STs but work out for yourselves how many people would actually read it. I would reckon it would be only in the hundreds. The majority of those, if they attend matches, would probably be Celtic supporters. If they did do as was proposed, the effect would by next to useless. The publicity afterwards would be far greater. My bet would be that the press would suddenly report it with headlines of “Fans Protest Fails”and that would leave us weaker.
So the problem is getting the information out. We don’t need a strong legal argument when we do, but we do need to be careful not to break the serious laws like liable and slander. 
I think we are at watershed moment just now, with all the court cases falling by the wayside. We need to know whether the written support we see on here can be trusted to be more than cyber hot air. If it can be trusted then we have a chance of building up the numbers who will join us. If it is just voicing off than we need to know now so we can admit defeat and move on with our lives albeit without football as part of them.

So guys? What’s it to be. Do you feel strongly enough about this to act and make a difference? It’s only fair that you let us know. I don’t want to see posts on here with suggestions what WE can do without you committing to act on your suggestions.

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AlthetimPosted on2:45 pm - Apr 29, 2016


There is much discussion on the  blogsphere about the part Celtic are playing in resolving the issues raised by what is commonly known as Resolution 12. Until very recently, I was 95% decided that I would not be renewing my Celtic season ticket with the whole Res 12 thing being central to my decision making. I was and still am appalled by the at best blatant mal governance and at worst (alleged) corruption within the SFA, SPFL and former SPl. I note the flak Jimmci is taking from some quarters for not disclosing what was discussed during a private conversation. I understand the frustration but fully support Jimmci’s stance and reasons for it. What follows will explain why.

I attended a meeting at Celtic Park on Thursday 28th April, accompanied by a life long friend and fellow season ticket holder. We met with two high ranking officials of Celtic PLC to discuss various matters concerning Celtic and Scottish Football governance in general. This was a private meeting and confidentiality will be respected.
However, I will share this. My concerns over the perceived inaction regarding the issues raised by “Resolution 12” have been allayed. I will now renew my season ticket confident that, regarding this particular subject, the custodians of Celtic FC are acting in the best interests of the club and its supporters. I’ve seen the evidence.

This message will be posted elsewhere.

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StevieBCPosted on2:54 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Extracted from the latest DR mince from Keef, [my ‘bold’ format for emphasis];

“…And later last night the SFA released the following statement to the Daily Record.
It read: ““Ordinarily, we would be loath to respond to such a disingenuous statement but in the interests of transparency and accuracy…”
======
Simply takes the breath away !

I’m assuming that Darryl “I am the SFA” Broadfoot authored this ridiculous and offensive statement on behalf of the SFA ?
Basically, shut up all you nosy, paying Scottish football customers: the SFA only comments when it’s in its own interests !

After 4+ long years, the Hampden blazers – and the SMSM – still don’t get it…and I seriously doubt that they ever will…  11

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jimboPosted on3:00 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Althetim,

Your experience, and Jimmci’s seems to chime with what Joe O’Rourke of the Celtic Supporters Assc. said last week:

“I know for a fact that Celtic contacted the SFA and UEFA with regards to Resolution 12; I have seen the correspondence. But was that enough? Some supporters are saying more should have been done; and that Celtic should have made a public statement. I tend to agree that a statement should be made; and I believe it will be done in the next week or so.”

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tayredPosted on3:11 pm - Apr 29, 2016


ALTHETIMAPRIL 29, 2016 at 14:45

What’s with all the one-to-one meetings of fans with the Celtic hiheedyins? Why don’t they just release a statement or hold a shareholders meeting? Let everyone know what the details are! Or is there something in those details that would lead to trouble?

I find the whole scenario just to weird to comprehend. Nothing new there right enough, there is much in this world that is incomprehensible to me.

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nawlitePosted on3:15 pm - Apr 29, 2016


With Althetim now joining Jimmci in confirming that they have been told privately by Celtic officials that things are under control on Res12 and they are taking action which both these posters are satisfied with, should we be satisfied too that CFC is taking the matter seriously? I’m not sure we should. Both posters have certainly appeared in the past to be aligned with the forum aim of challenging corruption within our football authorities, so deserve not to be challenged on the evidence they have been shown.
What I don’t understand, though, is ‘why them?’ I assume CFC knows who the main movers and shakers are in respect of Res12, yet Auldheid, BRTH etc seem rather more pessimistic than Althetim and Jimmci. Surely, if CFC has evidence that they are handling Res12 in line with the shareholders’ wishes, it would be those directly involved they would be providing that evidence to, rather than just showing it to random complainers?
While not doubting Althetim’s or Jimmci’s provenance, could it be that CFC knows that the evidence they are showing would be easily challenged by someone in the know on Res12 like Auldheid? Could they be using unsuspecting fans to get a good – albeit false – message out so that the impact on ST sales is lessened?
NB I hope not and could easily be wrong, of course!

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StevieBCPosted on3:21 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Call me a cynic…

But wrt Res.12, is it just a coincidence that ‘encouraging’ info has  emerged from Parkhead…just when ST renewals are being sought ?
Could this info. not have been shared earlier ?
Auldheid et al have been banging on about this for long enough, so surely they deserved an earlier and direct response – rather than having info. passed on via a few selected fans – and at this time ?

And combined with Phil’s prior assertion that a ‘confidante’ of Desmond was unusually taking an interest in the details – am I wrongly putting 2 plus 2 together to get maximum ST sales ?   09

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jimboPosted on3:36 pm - Apr 29, 2016


I’m going to a sportsmen’s dinner tonight where Frank McAvannie is one of the guest speakers.  I’ll try and have a word with him and see what tittle tattle I can gleam. 21

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ReiverPosted on3:40 pm - Apr 29, 2016


So Celtic have picked the two fans who know how to keep a secret to visit Celtic Park and be reassured be club officials.

AYE RIGHT!

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ReiverPosted on3:41 pm - Apr 29, 2016


This reminds me of the last minute pledge in the indyref.

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AlthetimPosted on3:43 pm - Apr 29, 2016


NAWLITE @15.15

Just so we’re clear, I did not say that Celtic claim to have the Res 12 issues under control, as you put it.
I said that my concerns over the perceived inaction regarding the issues raised by “Resolution 12” have been allayed. I honestly don’t know whether it is under control or not. There may not be a satisfactory outcome. I can assure you however, Celtic have not been inactive. That was my point.

“Why them?” you ask. I’ll tell you. My season ticket holding friend wrote a letter to Celtic outlining why he wouldn’t be renewing this or any other year. He was invited to a meeting and in turn invited me. That’s why. We are not alone in being asked along, there have been several such meetings in recent weeks. CFC would have no way of knowing in advance whether I was “in the know” regarding Res 12 or not, so your “unsuspecting fans” remark is both nonsense and disingenuous. 

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ReiverPosted on3:48 pm - Apr 29, 2016


It’s coming up 4 hours since I requested that people commit to action and what do I get. A few thumbs up and down. Not what I would call action. Not one saying “Aye OK I’ll do it.”

I thought the purpose of this site is to get action against the SFA for its perceived corruption but we only have, apart from the Res 12 guys, people who only want to talk.

I’m sure the Womans Weekly have a forum you might prefer on their site. It also has the advantage that you might get some money off coupons for hair products.

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RobinBhoyPosted on4:01 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Never posted on this blog in my puff, usually stick to mainly lurking on CQN, however I have known ALTHETIM for fifty odd years and the other season ticket holder that he mentioned is my brother.

I was also invited to join the meeting but their complaints were different from mine so I left them to it.

So I can categorically say that he is telling the truth.

RobinBhoy

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tayredPosted on4:05 pm - Apr 29, 2016


ALTHETIMAPRIL 29, 2016 at 15:43

Quite willing to accept Celtic have not been “inactive”. Not so sure I am ready to accept they have been fully active yet either though. The silence and lack of transparency through all of this has taught me (or rather reinforced my belief) to take everything with a huge pinch of salt. Besides, even if Celtic have been “active”, the lack of any outcome despite the evidence gathered would suggest we as fans are still being asked to blindly carry on financing a corrupt game. I’m not sure the level of activity of Celtic changes anything in that respect, but may well be enough to help soothe some fans dilemma with regards upcoming season ticket renewals.

If Celtic were fully engaged with resolution 12 something would have happened – be it SFA action (highly unlikely admittedly), UEFA action or if all else failed by doing the right thing and blowing the lid on it by going to the press and highlighting the corruption that would then obviously lie in all football bodies (FIFA was managing to do that without Scotlands help anyway!). That none of the above has happened would bring you to suggest Celtic (and presumably every other club as well) was aware of the corruption and was apparently ok with it for reasons unknown.

Or simply….

there is a genuine explanation for it all. If that is the case why not just tell the fans what it is? 

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naegreetinPosted on4:14 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Reiver @ 15.48 29 April
Well smack my bottom with my Womens Weekly – I’ll do it !
Joking aside I understand your frustration – there is a lot of it about & I know talk is cheap but we have to channel efforts to achieve a result – easier said than done . The key is witholding of cash to all clubs to provoke a response a la “No to Newco” in 2012 but how to achieve that momentum ?
I’ll lend a hand & have time at moment to give 

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shugPosted on4:21 pm - Apr 29, 2016


I wasn’t going to post again but I decided to have a look in and my heavens I thought it was only level 5 who put out squirrels but it seems cfc are at it as well.It is only my opinion but as far as I’m concerned put up or shut up.This seems very coincidental that this is coming out as there is a push for season books and they probably know they are going to be a good few thousand down.Do I believe this pap not at all it stinks of yeah all is well go on buy your books but for me I don’t care the rangers can be who they want I have already decided not one of those crooks will see another penny from me or my lot my grandkids will grow up knowing there is only one team in this crooked little country as far as the powers that be are concerned.Everyone else is just there to make up the numbers and may get a crust thrown to them every now and then.My grandkids will know to stay away from football as it is all fixed.As an aside i was speaking to a chap from Camelot yesterday and he has given me Saturday’s draw numbers and even though I wasn’t told to keep them to myself I would rather not say anymore than that but everyone remember and buy your lottery ticket.

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nawlitePosted on4:41 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Althetim, sorry my post wasn’t intended as having a go at you/Jimmci – I saw other posts almost suggesting you might be CFC placemen and thought I was supporting you as decent previous posters (as far as I can tell).
Nonetheless, you must see the ‘Why them?’ question as a valid one – it’s very strange that they would share whatever actions satisfied you when they haven’t shared same with those in the know on Res12. If it was as easy to satisfy Auldheid, BRTH etc as it was you and Jimmci, they would have done it. That makes me think CFC deliberately hasn’t shared it with them because CFC knows it’s not enough to satisfy them, whereas those not in the know (yourself and Jimmci) might be fooled into thinking matters were progressing well enough. There is a chance that they would assume you would then tell friends/posters that all is okay and to buy STs.
That’s just me and my natural cynicism, though.

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ReiverPosted on4:51 pm - Apr 29, 2016


OK!!!!

NAEGREETIN’s on board. Cheers pal.

Of course maybe I am being a bit tough on the rest of you. Maybe it isn’t that your all talk an’ nae troosers as me ma used to say. Perhaps what I have designed and offered is too embarrassing to be carried in your pocket. Perhaps it doesn’t say what you think should be said. So here’s an offer for you.
Post what you want said and how it should be displayed with any graphics(I’ll find them) and I will put it together and put it up for download. I won’t put my self at risk of being dragged through the law courts so keep that in mind.

I have the equipment and software despite not having the artistic ability.

Does that help?

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ReiverPosted on4:58 pm - Apr 29, 2016


To return to the chosen few that were granted an audience.

A big part of what we are against is the cover up and refusal to answer from the SFA. To discuss that with your club and be party to them doing the same would appear to be a bit warped. A bit “I’m OK stuff the rest of you”

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jimboPosted on5:24 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Reiver,  I’m not without sympathy regarding cynicism of the SLO and Peter Lawwell.  But your coming on a bit strong against the integrity and motives of two good posters.  Jimmci explained further that before the meeting with PL, John Paul Taylor (SLO) said he would prefer it would be confidential.

There now seems to be a consensus that they are plants being used by the board.  I’m not convinced.

Remember in the case of Jimmci there was build up to it.  He emailed them and told us the reply.  He then phoned JPT and told us the outcome, a meeting.  Because he wishes to keep the confidentiality he should not be put through the mill.   His action in no way is intented as a slur on the hard work of others like Auldheid, JC, EJ or your goodself.

Now a new poster Robinbhoy has 5 thumbs down for vouching for Althetim.
 Great stuff!
BTW,  Robinbhoy came off here, went back on to CQN and heaped praise on this site and encouraged others on CQN to come over.  Hope they get a better welcome.

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neepheidPosted on6:18 pm - Apr 29, 2016


jimboApril 29, 2016 at 17:2440Rate This
Reiver,  I’m not without sympathy regarding cynicism of the SLO and Peter Lawwell.  But your coming on a bit strong against the integrity and motives of two good posters.  Jimmci explained further that before the meeting with PL, John Paul Taylor (SLO) said he would prefer it would be confidential. There now seems to be a consensus that they are plants being used by the board.  I’m not convinced.

I honestly don’t know what to make of this.
I cannot come up with one good reason as to why the CFC Board would choose to communicate with their stakeholders on a “one to one” basis, rather than issuing a Club statement to all stakeholders. There can be no issues of confidentiality, surely, since telling one person is as much a breach of confidentiality as telling 50,000.
I am not doubting those who say they have met with highly placed people at Celtic Park. And if CFC have decided to engage with stakeholders, that can only be a good thing. But why do it like this? It makes no sense (to me, anyway).
I’m mystified.

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Corrupt officialPosted on6:50 pm - Apr 29, 2016


  NEEPHEIDAPRIL 29, 2016 at 18:18
      “I’m mystified.”
    ————————————————-
    Twos up ! 
    I don’t doubt for a moment that Jimmci or Allthetim have been persuaded by PL that CFC were not being as inactive as they appear. Even to the extent of providing eyes on correspondence. (perhaps just some “good bits”)
   However he was acting as CEO for CFC when meeting with them, therefore he should not have broken any laws or confidentialities in the meeting. That being the case, there is no reason whatsoever that I can see not to make a statement…. Unless of course he fears his persuasive qualities and claims may be shot down in flames. 
    Whatever his motives or thinking, this approach is akin to trying to put out a forest fire by spitting at it. 

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AlthetimPosted on7:13 pm - Apr 29, 2016


I suggest anyone who desires a meeting with the CEO and / or SLO of Celtic writes to the Club and requests it. I have no way of knowing whether or not the request will be granted. I can only tell you of my experience and if that doesn’t suit any particular individuals narrative, I can’t help that. I have no agenda. I wasn’t “hand picked” for this meeting as the CFC officials didn’t know me – it was my friend that invited me, not Celtic. I am not a Celtic “plant”. I don’t know Jimmci. I am not trying to sell CFC season tickets. I have been vociferous in my criticism of the Celtic Board in the very recent past as my good friend and new SFM recruit Robinbhoy will testify. I can make his ears bleed. I am, however, based on what I saw and heard yesterday, happy that my Club have acted in an appropriate manner. I did not expect that but as a Celtic fan I was happy to be proved wrong, all the while taking cognizance of the fact that my powers of comprehension are limited, as pointed out by Nawlite. All that can be done, has been (or is currently being) done. Expect a public statement in the next few weeks. I have nothing further to add.

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AuldheidPosted on7:28 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Folks
There is nothing sinister going on re Res12 silence.
Get one lawyer in a room and time slows, get two and it sloooooows even more, get three and its like watching an HD movie over a stream with only 0.05MBS bandwith.

Lottsa buffering.

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Cluster OnePosted on8:01 pm - Apr 29, 2016


REIVERAPRIL 29, 2016 at 10:17 33 2  Rate This 
OK I need to ‘fess up here.
I am writing this post in my knees begging you to do what I ask.
OR
I am writing this holding a baseball bat with a look of extreme anger on my face.
Whichever one gets you guys to help in what we need to do and that is get the information out to the ordinary fan who still believes the game is straight.
Go tohttps://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_X7aVh2s6qcQTA5X0t5b1lwQ0Uand download the two busdrop pdfs. Print off a sheet(or more if you feel generous) of the one named busdropfront.Put the paper back in the printer so the other side gets printed on and print off busdropback. Cut the sheet into eight using the busdropback side as the guide and place the pieces in your jacket pocket. The next time you are out to the pub, the library, the supermarket or the chinese carry out leave some behind where others will pick them up. If you are car driver and feel that you can spare two or three quid then leave the car jump a bus for a couple of stops but leave behind on a seat or two a printout, get on another bus and do the same. Cross the road and get a couple of buses back repeating the exercise.
————————-
Did not really want to post as an update to what i had been up to, but since REIVER is holding a baseball bat 18
Diary of last week. printed off poster pdf on to A4 and on the way to the game last week handed out a few on the way down, but because of my own fault and short of time to stand near stadium and hand out A4’s i looked into some bookmakers and as they were packed with fans put some poster pdf A4’s next to the football coupons.Also walked into some pubs stuck some on doors with blue tack and left some on the bus on the way home.
Diary this week,got more paper filled the printer with ink and will print off Bus Drop pictures tonight as i’m on the way into town tomorrow.
it’s not much but i hope it helps.

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gunnerbPosted on8:56 pm - Apr 29, 2016


AULDHEIDAPRIL 29, 2016 at 19:28 15 1  Rate This 
FolksThere is nothing sinister going on re Res12 silence.
______________________________________________________
Auldheid, are you saying that you and other resolutioners are content with with the way things are progressing?
Given the season ticket dilemma it would be comforting to have a lead from someone in the `know’.

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IniquitousIVPosted on9:09 pm - Apr 29, 2016


REIVER, I really admire your persistence.  May I make a suggestion?   Contact Wycombebhoy on CQN (See Page 6 of current blog).   He is willing to donate £1000 for fliers.  Appears to be genuine.

Good luck!
IniquitousIV

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wottpiPosted on10:40 pm - Apr 29, 2016


Maybe it is me taking 2 plus 2 and making five or clutching at straws but I really am surprised by the lack of comment re what the Ashley camp said after yesterday.

While Grant Russell laid it out of a plate it seems like the key part of the MASH PR piece has disappeared from today’s reports.

“MASH notes that the SFA did not approve Dave King to be a director of the football club (The Rangers Football Club Limited, the body which has membership of the SFA), but instead only approved him as a director of the club’s holding company (Rangers International Football Club plc).

Ashley was questioning why the SFA appeared to approve DCK as F&P given his rack record with the oldco and the SA tax authorities.

The MASH counsel appeared to go to great lengths to bring up the SA courts opinion of DCK and that the man from SA was not forthcoming with information.  James Doleman made some reference to the mention in court of  “No no no” as being the response to the request for the release of information from the King camp.

Much play is being made that King is a man who will portray himself as something he is not.

If the SFA did not give DCK F&P approval re his involvement with the part of the business empire that actually is the football club that holds membership of the SFA i.e The Rangers Football Club Lt,  then what exactly was Ashley going after them for?

To my mind the Ashley camp seems to be saying that in the event of the new evidence, provided late in the day, the SFA had no case to answer because they have not provided a King with a F&P approval in relation to the business of football club with which they had a degree of influence.

Their ability to say whether or not DCK is F& P to be chairman of the Plc is beyond their remit and anything they say in that regard is meaningless in the eyes of a judicial review. As such, based on the information provided, the SFA has no case to answer.

So why is no-one asking the SFA for a definitive statement? Why, once again is their vague, wordy  and wishy-washy response not being challenged?

Regardless of how the companies down Govan want to set up their boards can the SFA confirm if they have approved DCK as being F& P should he ever wish to become a director of the company that directly holds the membership of the Association.

It really is a simple question that can be answered in a simple manner.

It will be interesting to see if anything comes out of the decision re costs for the other day’s farce and if perhaps written submissions, may shed light on exactly what the evidence is that caused Ashley to back down.

As I said, and given the fiasco of Ashley’s men in  the High Court the other month, maybe just clutching at straws

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John ClarkPosted on11:34 pm - Apr 29, 2016


wottpiApril 29, 2016 at 22:40
‘..It will be interesting to see if anything comes out of the decision re costs for the other day’s farce and if perhaps written submissions, may shed light on exactly what the evidence is that caused Ashley to back down.’
________
wottpi,
I sent my report, such as it is,of yesterday’s proceedings as an attachment to an email to SFM Central, rather than post a fairly long and possibly uninteresting post that just annoys people by its relative length.
It might help in putting things in broad context, but sadly, no great revelations were revealed. Except perhaps that even a certain QC has to make irrelevant references to a football club not at all party to the proceedings in hand.

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John ClarkPosted on1:28 am - Apr 30, 2016


AuldheidApril 29, 2016 at 19:28
‘…its like watching an HD movie over a stream with only 0.05MBS bandwith.
Lottsa buffering.”
______
Haw, wait a wee minute here, Auldheid!
I could have sworn that you were , like some of the rest of us, a kind of auld geezer. Turns out that you can speak the foreign language of ‘internet’ like a native!
God Almighty! ‘buffering’…..’ ….’ 0.05MBS bandwidths’  !.
Or maybe you got a granwean to write that post!10

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upthehoopsPosted on7:15 am - Apr 30, 2016


WOTTPIAPRIL 29, 2016 at 22:40 

So why is no-one asking the SFA for a definitive statement? Why, once again is their vague, wordy  and wishy-washy response not being challenged?

Scotland is not a great environment for discussing when Rangers are perceived to have gained an advantage from officialdom. Fergus McCann is one I can recall who was willing to do it. and it made an already hostile media utterly despise him. Martin O’Neill made a couple of comments, and was met with a tsunami of media abuse.  Stephen Thompson fairly recently as well.

Yet the rubbish recently spoken by Walter Smith was welcomed bye and large. 

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scottcPosted on7:27 am - Apr 30, 2016


WOTTPI
APRIL 29, 2016 at 22:40  
Maybe it is me taking 2 plus 2 and making five or clutching at straws but I really am surprised by the lack of comment re what the Ashley camp said after yesterday.

What I can’t understand is why DK had lawyers there and why he thinks Ashley should pay for them. It was the SFA who were ‘in the dock’ and the case really had nothing to do with DK per se.

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upthehoopsPosted on8:00 am - Apr 30, 2016


SCOTTCAPRIL 30, 2016 at 07:27 What I can’t understand is why DK had lawyers there and why he thinks Ashley should pay for them. It was the SFA who were ‘in the dock’ and the case really had nothing to do with DK per se.
=========================

I too was surprised to read quotes saying ‘Counsel for King’.  The whole thing is a real pity because win or lose, if that case had gone ahead the SFA would have to have revealed how they operate. I am also disgusted at their ‘need’ to mention Celtic at all in the court.  It is a real pity the late Paul McBride is no longer with us. I can only imagine his views on it all. 

On another note I had to smile at Keith Jackson’s words that Ashley faces an anxious wait re court costs. ‘Anxious’ – really?

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ReiverPosted on8:26 am - Apr 30, 2016


OK, a nice evening with friends (yes, I still have some, probably cos they don’t like football) last night so feeling a lot more mellow today. I’ll try not let my frustrations boil over again.
Cluster one.
Thanks for your work. The betting shop is one I hadn’t thought of. A captive sports loving audience. Perfect.
Never worry whether what is done is too little. One poster alone in somewhere like a betting shop I would guess would be read by at least half a dozen people. If a couple of them come on board then something has been achieved.
This was always going to be a slow burn but, while not as good as if we had access to the media, it far better than the fuse going out all together. My worry is that the close season is coming up too quickly. That will make things harder.

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