The SFA’s Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal (JPDT) process itself is now under scrutiny .
Aberdeen FC have asked for change and the Celtic Supporters Association have written to Ian Maxwell SFA CEO expressing concerns about judgements reached concerning recent on field incidents that appear to herald in A Cloggers Charter.
However the whole Judicial Panel Protocol (JPP) on which the JPDT is based (and which was the brainchild of the discredited former SFA Chief Executive Stewart Regan) has shown itself to be a means of perverting justice rather than providing it since it was introduced amidst a loud fanfare at the SFA AGM in June 2011 (the same one that saw Campbell Ogilvie elected SFA President)
To see how the JPP has been misused we need to start with a definition of judicial which according to Websters dictionary is:
of or relating to a judgment, the function of judging, the administration of justice
The latest Judicial Panel Protocol can be found on the SFA Web Site .
One of its Founding Principles is:
2.2 Principle 1 – Economic and expeditious justice. The objective of the Protocol is to secure the Determination of disciplinary proceedings arising in respect of Association Football and that Decisions are made economically and expeditiously in a fair manner. Tribunals appointed from the Judicial Panel may impose reasonable procedural requirements on Parties to ensure that matters are dealt with economically and expeditiously.
The word justice actually appears nine times and injustice three times, so it would appear that whilst economy and speed are the means to the end, that end is justice, but how has that panned out since June 2011?
I am grateful here to Glasnostandtwostrickers for three enlightening articles in Pie and Bovril in which he reviews the protocol a year later in 2012 with suggestions that with the passage of time have been shown to be prescient when made. They can be read at:
Of particular interest is the important view that the process is not independent of the SFA and the following is an extract from Pie and Bovril 3 covering that aspect which explains how the JPP has been used by the SFA to pervert rather than administer justice.
“So to what extent does the JPP system achieve that independence? We think that it does so to a far greater extent than the old system, but not nearly enough. Ensuring that the Tribunals are chaired by respected members of the legal profession was perhaps the single most important reform to make. But there remains a serious lack of independence in the JPP system. This centres on the roles of the SFA’s Compliance Officer (Vincent Lunny) and the SFA Secretary (Stewart Regan) in the process of bringing a case in front of a Tribunal.
The Compliance Officer’s task is to monitor what goes on in Scottish football, assess whether anyone has broken any rules, and – if so – to initiate the disciplinary process. What happens if the Compliance Officer reviews a given event and decides that the conduct of the club, player or official in question doesn’t breach any rules? Well, that is the end of the matter. Neither the SFA executive nor the Judicial Panel can do anything about that decision. And, given that some SFA rules are very vague (e.g. ‘bringing the game into disrepute), the Compliance Officer wields a great deal of power. If the system is to be independent of the SFA, it the Compliance Officer must be independent of it. Yet, as things stand today, Vincent Lunny is an employee of the SFA.
The lack of independence associated with the SFA Secretary’s role is even more flagrant. Firstly, he can veto any decision of the Compliance Officer to mount a disciplinary case. Secondly, even if he allows a case to go ahead, he has the power to select (from the 100-strong Judicial Panel) the 3 individuals who will hear the case. The SFA claims that this takes place on a ‘cab rank’ basis (i.e. the Tribunal is formed of next 3 people in line), but no such rule is to be found in the JPP. On the contrary, it states that:
“Tribunals shall be appointed by the Secretary or his nominee from the Judicial Panel…The Secretary or his nominee may take such steps in respect of the appointment of Tribunals as he considers, in his sole discretion, to be appropriate.” (sections 7.2.1-2)
This applies equally to the Appellate Tribunals as it does to the first-instance Disciplinary Tribunals. So, in theory at least, the SFA Secretary gets two bites of the cherry. He may appoint to a Disciplinary Tribunal the individuals who he thinks are most likely to return the result that he desires. If they don’t, and there is an appeal, he also gets to choose the make-up of the Appellate Tribunal that will hear the appeal. And that’s only if he hasn’t blocked the case from happening in the first place. That is not to impugne Stewart Regan himself, but rather a system that allows him (and his successors) such great power.
The reasons why the JPP is structured in the way that it is are unclear. Despite the fact that it represents a great improvement over the system it replaced, more work must be done if we Scottish football is to have a genuinely independent – and therefore credible – system of footballing ‘justice’.
This article however will let the readers decide if they impugn Stewart Regan and shows how he has used the Judicial Protocol not to deliver justice but to prevent such an outcome, which might just clarify the reason why the JPP was structured in the way that it was and why it absolutely must be replaced on the lines of the suggestions in the excellent Pie and Bovril articles.
Perverting the Course of Justice.
The Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal on Craig Whyte – Bringing The Game Into Disrepute.
The First instance can be found in this E Tim’s article where Regan and LNS met in February 2012 to set the terms of reference for the Judicial Panel that charged Craig Whyte with bringing the game into disrepute.( Telegraph Report 21 Feb 2012 )
As the E Tim’s article shows, whilst Whyte was charged with non payment of PAYE and VAT no charges were made with regard to his failure to pay the £2.8m tax liability that CW undertook to pay in his statement to Rangers shareholders of June 2011. This omission prevented scrutiny of what lay behind that liability, what created it and why it was accepted by RFC in March 2011 and how the SFA were able to grant RFC a UEFA licence in April 2011.
Whatever information Regan had from his telephone conversation with Andrew Dickson on 6th December 2011 and subsequent meeting at Hotel Du Vin with Craig Whyte along with Campbell Ogilvie and RFC CEO Ali Russell, appears not to have been passed to Lord Nimmo Smith in February 2012 when Regan and Nimmo Smith were drawing up the JPP Terms of Reference for the Craig Whyte Tribunal.
The Lord Nimmo Smith Commission
The second instance of Regan’s ability to shape outcomes is in respect of the LNS Commission. Here the SFA stood aside on the grounds they were the Court of Appeal should RFC wish to appeal the eventual LNS Decision and let the then SPL take the running in March 2012. This was a convenient argument given that Regan knew by March 2012 that RFC had a £2.8m tax liability that Sherriff Officers had called to collect that prompted a number of enquiries asking how the SFA were able to grant a UEFA licence in March/April of 2011.
That event caused UEFA and the SFA in September 2011 to discuss the submission RFC made in June 2011 under Article 66 of UEFA FFP that described the status of the liability as postponed and awaiting scheduling of payments but more of this SFA/UEFA discussion later in the context of the current JPDT charges of non compliance against Rangers FC.
It is inconceivable that by March 2012 when the investigation into ebts and side letters began that this September 2011 discussion along with his conversations in December 2011 that Regan was unaware that the tax owed was the result of RFC use of unlawful ebts nor the reasons why RFC had accepted liability for the sum owed arising from their use. However by standing aside there was no specific mention in the SPL Lawyers letter of 15 March 2012 that began the investigation of the by then clearly unlawful ebts that caused the £2.8m tax liability, although it did refer to all ebts with side letters from 1998. All rather convenient for Regan under the powers the Judicial Panel Protocol gave him.
The impact of this exclusion in skewing the LNS Terms of Reference and so the LNS Decision is now a matter of Social Media record that can be followed from beginning to end HERE.
The E Tim’s article already mentioned covers how events from February to April 2012 allowed the exclusion from the Craig Whyte JPP and The Reasons given by Lord Nimmo Smith in September 2012 appear in a follow up E Tim’s article where LNS himself justifies the exclusion of the £2.8m tax liability caused by RFC’s use of unlawful ebts in from 1999 to 2003 on what are less than convincing grounds unless he was kept in the dark by Regan.
SFA JPP Charges In Respect of UEFA Licence in 2011
The final instance of the misuse of the JPP begins in September 2017 when after court testimony stating when the £2.8m tax liability was accepted, the SFA, whilst rejecting an investigation into the handling of RFC use of ebts with side letters (and the foregoing on LNS spells out why) Regan accepted that the granting of the UEFA Licence by the SFA in 2011 should be subject to the Judicial Protocol process.
It took until mid-May 2018 for that process to come up with two charges of non compliance of SFA Articles by RFC that were put to TRFC presumably on the basis that they were responsible for the events in 2011, particularly when at least three current TRFC officials/Directors were in place in 2011, charges which TRFC said they would contest and subsequently in July wanted CAS involvement on grounds that the secret 5 Way Agreement requires it but on scope that that have still to be made known as the parties negotiate the terms of reference to CAS.
Now seven plus months is a long time to finally arrive at charges that according to a TRFC statement in May 2018 in this BBC report excluded the very period at end of March 2011 stating accusations were groundless, that caused the SFA to invoke the JPP process, but what is interesting about those charges is the absence (and as Regan left in February he might not have had an influence or was his parting shot), of any charges against the SFA itself of aiding RFC noncompliance at end of March in September 2011. The Compliance Officer himself resigned not long after the charges of non- compliance were made which raises eyebrows higher than Roger Moore level.
Perhaps it was because of possible SFA complicity in September 2011 that the Compliance Officer agreed to exclude this end March period although that exclusion was challenged by Resolution 12 lawyers just before the SFA Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal (JPDT) sat on 25th June. No answers to the evidence backed questions in that letter, copied to Celtic, have so far been provided.
So what are the SFA hiding from or behind the JPP process this time?
Here is a copy of the Good News e mail of 19th September 2011 between Keith Sharp the UEFA FFP man at the SFA and Ken Olverman the Financial chap at RFC. In it Sharp tells Olverman that UEFA have verbally accepted the RFC submission of June 2011 under Article 66. (This admitted that the 2.8m EBT proposed settlement also required to be disclosed but is shown as a status of postponed (awaiting scheduling of payments) but that a further declaration will be needed under Article 67. This can be read here but note the Comments were not part of original exchange.
Note the tone of the advice given about the Article 67 submission but the point is, either Sharp of the SFA told UEFA porkies to get the monitoring submission under Article 66, that itself was false at the time it was made, verbally accepted or told UEFA the truth and as RFC were out of Europe there was an agreement to bury it between SFA and UEFA.
That UEFA involvement if the latter instance, would explain Celtic’s reluctance to take Res12 to UEFA in 2013 especially as we don’t know UEFA’s response to Celtic’s earlier letter of May 2012 to SFA re ebt investigation copied to Infantino at UEFA.
If the former instance i.e. SFA told UEFA porkies it makes SFA complicit in covering up the non compliance they are charging Rangers with!
I mention this in the context of the SFA Judicial Process being totally inappropriate in this case and why there should be a speedy independent investigation because the charges of non-compliance that the JPDT are covering relate to RFC and NOT the SFA which is perhaps why the terms of reference to CAS are taking so long to emerge.
There is clearly a conflict of SFA self interest here.
It would be more than ironic if the organisation bringing charges against Rangers were in fact complicit in the non-compliance by Rangers after it became public HMRC were owed tax in August 2010!
Summary
The point of this long blog is that the Judicial Panel Protocol introduced by Regan in June 2011 with the flaws pointed out a year later in The Pie and Bovril articles has been used by the SFA under Regan not to produce justice but pervert it since 2011.
Only a truly independent investigation will provide the justice that the crimes perpetrated against Scottish Football and its supporters since 2000 by RFC under the dishonest leadership of Sir David Murray requires, an investigation that should recommend changes that make the JPP independent of the SFA..
Justice is there to uphold the rule of law, that applies to football law as much as natural law and without justice there can be no law. That is where Scottish football now exists, in outlaw territory with the bad guys still ruling as they please, not as justice demands.
Until justice is served and seen to be served there is no law in football and no fake Judicial Protocol Panel is ever going to provide it.
The owners and Directors of all SPFL clubs need to revisit the scene of the crime, the 5 Way Agreement has done its job, a form of Rangers drawing big crowds will continue to exist, but on it has to be on more honest grounds, where who knows, they might even earn redemption.
StevieBC 11th October 2018 at 21:44
0 1 Rate This
Talking about those deserving to be included in the ‘Hall of Fame’…
did any other Bampots get an update on the consideration of Turnbull Hutton?
I did get a reply a few years ago from a lady at the Hampden museum saying IIRC that he ‘might be nominated in future’.
A guy who was brave to enough to call out the corruption in Scottish football – and which probably went a long way to curbing further corruption in 2012.
Turnbull Hutton should be honoured before any football player, IMO
………………………….
https://mobile.twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1014213611936452610?p=v
july 4, 2012
wottpi 11th October 2018 at 21:48
'…can I be the first to say 'McLeish oot' !!!
____________________
I suspect not: there are a good few in the queue afore ye!
A wee thought on the pic of the iconic Albion car park. Is it an old photo, as I seem to remember it from a while back? I may be wrong, though.
If it is current, then maybe they are preparing it for the fan zone
Digging for victory, anyone?
In the late ‘70’s the Scotland squad of the era got involved in health promotion activities. The slogan on the posters read “The Squad don’t smoke” I remember seeing one of those posters in a pub with the slogan crossed out and replaced with a hand written message “The Squad don’t score”. In all the time since then nothing has changed.
On McLeish oot.
I'm not one to post on here about individual matches, and I've never been great at discerning a team's tactics/set up, but Israel looked pretty effective out wide, and Scotland set up, and never changed, a rather narrow back three. Did McLeish not watch and/or study Israel's tactics, and is he unable to realise what's happening and change things before the EBTs hit the fan?
Regardless, whenever he was caught on camera, he just looked like a man happy in the knowledge that, whatever happens, his Scotland contract covers his EBT tax debt!
https://twitter.com/standforceltic/status/1050499262184923137?s=21
Maybe it was the heat of the moment.
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1050493894515990529?s=21
Remake of Nixon meeting Elvis.
CO – good link. His stance looks even more impressive as times goes by: Turnbull knew only too well the amount of sh!t which would be coming his way for voicing fans' concerns.
…and as for this latest in a long line of low points in Scottish national team results…
I have no sympathy for EBT McLeish, but he simply shouldn't be anywhere near the national team. Clubs wouldn't touch him for 2 years previously, which is a bit of a huge, maniacally waved red flag.
Wonder how many fans the SFA expect to turn up at Hampden for the return Israel game?
15K…10K…?
It's the bumbling blazers who have stumbled into this latest debacle of their own making.
McLeish probably needs help.
Extracted from an ET article after Israel loss;
"…McLeish continued: “Did we ever say we were at a level where we should be qualifying for major tournaments? We’ve not said that…"
==========================
Ok, assuming that is a correct, direct quote from McLeish, then he has to go now.
If the manager is publicly saying his team isn't good enough to qualify for a Finals, then guess what?
His players won't believe they are good enough either, and the Scottish national team will continue to be a minnow.
To state the bleedin’ obvious.
I don't think the Scotland team is any good, and the choice of quality players is limited.
But it doesn't help either when the manager seems hellbent on alienating decent players.
…and why should fans pay good money, in good faith, in a reasonable expectation that the national team is set up – as best as possible – to secure that elusive qualification.
If McLeish himself doesn't believe, then why is he there?
…just to finance a tax demand…?
So he was going to replace souttar with mckenna who was already on the park but it was wee forrest who was being readied something wrong with mcleish.
StevieBC 12th October 2018 at 04:28
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It was heavily rumoured McLeish was the choice of Petrie and McCrae in return for the Ian Maxwell camp getting their man. If true, it just shows what an entire shambles the SFA is. McLeish was unemployable in my view, and the stench will always remain that the SFA are paying his tax bill from a time Rangers evaded taxes to fund success on the field.
The whole thing stinks.
https://twitter.com/thejeremyvine/status/1050612505901391872?s=21
Jezza catching up with SFM.
Ex Ludo 11th October 2018 at 23:32
https://twitter.com/standforceltic/status/1050499262184923137?s=21 Maybe it was the heat of the moment.
________________-
I think he just cemented his place as the worst ever Scotland manager. As things were going from not very good to very bad, the camera caught him smiling! Not a grimace, not an ironic 'what the f…', but an actual smile. Could it be he's working towards the sack and a pay-off that would clear his EBT debt, once and for all, allowing him to lead the easy life he thought he was going to lead as a part-time TV pundit?
How perfect would his credentials then be for a BBC football pundit: failed Scotland manager who had previously abandoned Scotland for more money and a Rangers EBT recipient? He'd almost certainly be due his own program after that! BBC Scotland's very own Gary Lineker…with a twist!
As far as the Scotland farce is concerned a major part of the blame must be placed at McLeish's door! I have always been vocal on here of opposing his appointment for pure football reasons and he is once again proving me right. The only area in the whole team we really excell at is left back with two genuinly world class players fighting for that position. The big challenge for any Scotland manager is deciding who gets to play in that position, yet McLeish in his wisdom thinks the answer is none of them! So we have Tierney who is never a centre half, playing in the heart of defence and Robertson pushed into midfield! And a team crying out for creativity and inform players leaved Forrest, hot of the back of 4 goals in one game, on the bench for 60 minutes? I would honestly argue this is the worst Scotland team I have ever seen and there have been some howlers in recent years.
As far as Gazza is concerned, as much as I loved him as a player the very fact the SFA thought it would be an idea to propose a wife beater, alcoholic and recent perpatrator of racial abuse should be added to the hall of fame is a new low. For all I will stick up for players that are ostracised for tax avoidance etc, there can be no excuses for the crimes that Gazza has committed. To then allow this circus to develop around a deeply troubled and huge sufferer of mental illness is completely irresponsible by the SFA. Shame on them.
StevieBC 12th October 2018 at 02:29
'I have no sympathy for EBT McLeish, but he simply shouldn't be anywhere near the national team. Clubs wouldn't touch him for 2 years previously, which is a bit of a huge, maniacally waved red flag….It's the bumbling blazers who have stumbled into this latest debacle of their own making…'
____________________
The McLeish appointment was no more than a continuation of the fundamental rottenness at the heart of Football Governance in this country: a rottenness that created the Big Lie,a lie that destroyed any belief that our Sport was run on any kind of basis of either Sporting or commercial Integrity.
The re-appointment of a failed manager who
had contemptuously deserted them on a previous occasion (for filthy lucre's sake and to hell with loyalty and principle)
had been unemployed for two years or so,
had been part of a crowd of tax-cheating individuals who either played for or managed or directed a club which so massively cheated Scottish Football for a decade and right royally f.cked up all belief in sporting merit as the only measure of entitlement to honour and respect,
betrayed a crass, lop-sided ,inability to face truth and reality.
Bad cess to the SFA, and may none of those involved in creating and propagating the Big Lie enjoy any further influence in the running of our Sport.
Not only must McLeish get his jotters:so must the dirty wee nest on the 6th Floor be emptied of those who have so disastrously been running Scottish Football into the mire of rottenness and inefficiency.
Allyjambo 12th October 2018 at 08:58
'…How perfect would his credentials then be for a BBC football pundit:..'
_______________________
Come, come, Aj!
The BBC's "Distressed EBT-recipients 'gie them a job' Fund" ,sometimes chaired by oor Kenny,does excellent work, aJ!
The poor lads whom they help oot , from director level through ex-managers and down to players , were but the innocent 'dupes' of a knight of the realm who was himself a self-declared dupe of a con-man porn-star of a struck-off lawyer!
Or so the propaganda machine would have us believe!
No reason for Donalda to get involved and end the farce of the BBC's denial of the untruth at the heart of their propaganda.
DFB
As far as Gazza is concerned, as much as I loved him as a player the very fact the SFA thought it would be an idea to propose a wife beater, alcoholic and recent perpatrator of racial abuse should be added to the hall of fame is a new low. For all I will stick up for players that are ostracised for tax avoidance etc, there can be no excuses for the crimes that Gazza has committed. To then allow this circus to develop around a deeply troubled and huge sufferer of mental illness is completely irresponsible by the SFA. Shame on them.
—————————————————————————————-
No apologist for the SFA but is it not the case that nominations are from fans to a Scottish Football Hall of Fame committee who decide who is admitted? Some suggestion that it was the threat of several SFA members boycotting the ceremony that brought about the change of mind?
A quote from alex mcLeish EBT, the manager of our national team. (No sniggerin’)
https://i.imgflip.com/2jykf3.jpg
John Clark 11Oct 21.24
Apologies JC, Was referring to Paul Gascoigne.
Allyjambo 11 Oct. 22.16
Not an old photo. Something to do with work on the subway i believe.
Darkbeforedawn 09.00
To say that KT & AR are both world class is imo nonsense. They are by Scottish standards both above average players but no more than that.
Re-Gazza There is of course at least one other player who displayed a couple of Gazza's unsavoury human traits who was inducted into the HOF without his behaviour being questioned.
19 people in Belgian football, including a referee, have been arrested in connection with match-rigging.
It would be interesting, mes amis, to see what a Hercule Poirot might find in Scottish football, n'est-ce pas?, were he available to have a look over the last six or ten years?
This might become a bit repetitious, but for emphasis McCrae's introduction of McLeish to the media on his appointment said it all when, after a firm handshake, he went on about having known Alec for years and having been Chair of his Testimonial Committee. I don't know why McLeish couldn't hold down a job anywhere , but his CV was nowhere near good enough for the Scotland job.
Almost a year ago to the day, Harry Kane scrambled in a last minute equaliser for England at Hampden, after Leigh Griffiths had put two cracking free kicks behind Joe Hart. Yesterday we got tanked 2 v 1 by Israel and the manager says we don't expect to qualify for finals. (Who suggested that to him by the way? McCrae?)
McLeish needs to go now. He was quoted before the game as having told his players they, "need to show him they've got a pair". There's modern coaching for you. His interview after the match was embarrassing; he mumbled, slurred his speech, and produced a cliched, rambling account that defied what had been witnessed by everyone. His confusion over the substitution is enough of an excuse to have him retired, "on health grounds". OK it would probably mean he got his EBT tax bill paid, which sticks in my craw, but he's getting that anyway and we may yet save the team.
macfurgly 12th October 2018 at 15:21
'..it would probably mean he got his EBT tax bill paid.'
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In the abstract, and prescinding from any reference to any current events, I would imagine that the engineering of one's sacking in order to get a lump sum for immediate clearance of a debt might be a kind of high risk ploy.
Perhaps especially so if one's employer might have good grounds for sacking on grounds of breach of contract or of disciplinary rules or deliberate contrivance.
A ( contractually guaranteed) couple of hundred grand or so paid over two/three years might be worth holding onto, rather than look for an immediate lump sum by seeking to have one's employer pay compensation to get rid of one.
slimjim 12th October 2018 at 14:33
Re-Gazza There is of course at least one other player who displayed a couple of Gazza's unsavoury human traits who was inducted into the HOF without his behaviour being questioned.
=============================================
Who would that be and what particular traits are you talking about.
John Clark 12th October 2018 at 15:39
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I wasn't suggesting he was attempting to get himself sacked or that he would require his tax bill to be paid as part of a severance package. I was suggesting he should be removed and since there is unlikely to be a will at the SFA to sack him, his departure presented as an honourable discharge, pronto, is probably the best Scotland fans can hope for. I imagine this would mean paying out the remainder of his contract, which he in turn could use to pay his tax bill.
macfurgly 12th October 2018 at 16:16
'..I wasn't suggesting he was attempting to get himself sacked…'
______________________
Good heavens no, and far be it from me to suggest that any particular living employee would ever do so. No, no, no, of course not. Surely not!
But I have heard of such a thing as bouncing one's employer into sacking one, in the hope that one's employer will use language such as 'parting by mutual agreement' and pay compensation rather than be seen to have made a farce of appointing one in the first place and/or having to defend an 'unfair dismissal' action.
Loyalty to one's employer is quite often an alien concept to employees who move in a mercenary world.
Get French Football News @GFFN · 48m Breaking | French authorities are investigating substantial claims that PSG’s 6-1 recent victory over Red Star Belgrade in the Champions’ League was match-fixed. More follows. (L’Éq)
Is it not about time that Gordon "I know nothing about anything" Smith got a shot as Scotland manager?
Well, he has probably known most of the Hampden blazers "for years", from his stint as SFA CEO.
He did play for the real Rangers.
He was a real Rangers Director.
The only negative is he didn't receive an EBT.
But he'll be cheap.
And will do as he's told.
Well, if the SFA incompetents want to continue killing off all interest in OUR national game…they could at least inject a bit of dark humour to this never ending shambles. Intended or not.
Am I allowed to call them a bunch of SFA w@nkers on SFM?
JC
…
Loyalty to one's employer is quite often an alien concept to employees who move in a mercenary world.
============================================
Agreed JC.
Through experience we -typically – learn to expect nothing from employers – so we don't get disappointed. Makes one rather cynical, and perpetuates mistrust on both sides.
And in this dog-eat-dog world, if it's loyalty you want…get a Labrador.
[Apologies for the ruff pun.]
I'll get my lead.
Homunculus 15.48
Not going to name the individual on here but he had a history of alcohol addiction and assault on a female over a number of years.
Just to be clear there are no excuses for the latter.
slimjim
12th October 2018 at 18:00
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I have to say I am totally unsurprised by two things.
1, That you are not naming anyone, just the nebulous accusation which you know you will be asked to justify.
2, That your last post is pretty much just snapshots from a follow follow thread. As in fact is your original allegation which you refuse to substantiate.
Are these two people in the hall of fame. Because if they are not I don't see how it is any way relevant. The SFA don't choose who goes into the hall of fame.
This is the worst example of whataboutery I have seen for quite some time.
I await your snapshots from the Club1872 statement.
bordersdon 12th October 2018 at 13:55
11 0 Rate This
No apologist for the SFA but is it not the case that nominations are from fans to a Scottish Football Hall of Fame committee who decide who is admitted? Some suggestion that it was the threat of several SFA members boycotting the ceremony that brought about the change of mind?
…………………………………
A few questions on that if i may?
1. Why would a number of fans this year all of a sudden nominate PG?
2. How nominations have to be put forward before the committee concider who to admit?
3. Has someone jumped the gun?
4. Will do an Ally McCoist here. who is on this committee?
5. Was PG just put forward as a feel good factor for the bears to deflect from another court case from ibrox?
6. How can you nominate and when?
7. Was there anything unusual about the number of nominations for PG, compared to any other nominees over the years.
8. Is there a lack of transparency on these issues?
slimjim 12th October 2018 at 14:33
5 10 Rate This
To say that KT & AR are both world class is imo nonsense. They are by Scottish standards both above average players but no more than that.
……………………
So you are just an above average player if you have worn the captain’s armband for club and country.
For those guys from pub teams to reserve teams to junior teams, do not fret your calling is not far away
To late to edit above. Should read
2. How many nominations
Homunculus 18.13
1 The player concerned is known to many people and probably many on here.
2 Not on FF so no idea what is being said.
What two people?
Cluster One18.50
They are imo above average in terms of the general standard of our international team but nowhere near world class.
slimjim 12th October 2018 at 19:10
Thanks for reply.
They are imo above average in terms of the general standard of our international team but nowhere near world class.
……………..
when does a player become world class if i may ask?
slimjim
12th October 2018 at 19:10
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Homunculus 18.13
1 The player concerned is known to many people and probably many on here.
=========================================
So who is it and what is he accused of.
Incidentally has anyone actually said that Paul Gascoigne was removed because of his off field behaviour or are people just assuming that.
StevieBC 12th October 2018 at 17:41
'..[Apologies for the ruff pun.]
I'll get my lead.'
___________
I had to paws for a second there, StevieBC, wondering whether you might be barking up the wrong tree. But I see your pointer, and you are telling the twoof, when it comes to loyalty.
I'll bow-wow out of this now, otherwise we might end up with a dogged attempt to emulate the great (dog)-'fish' episode of some years ago in which I think that 'great Danish' Pastry poster figured.
Homunculus 19.22
Nothing to be gained by naming the person involved.
Yes. The HOF committee released a statement to that effect. " Further to a consultation with the chair and members of the Scottish Football Hall of Fame committee, due to a number of factors including ongoing enquiries,and concerns over the state of Paul's health,it has been decided to withdraw the nomination of Paul Gascoigne at this time from this years nomination process".
Have just read the Club 1872 statement you mentioned in a previous post and found it decent tbh.
slimjim 12th October 2018 at 19:39
Further to a consultation with the chair and members of the Scottish Football Hall of Fame committee, due to a number of factors including ongoing enquiries,and concerns over the state of Paul’s health,it has been decided to withdraw the nomination of Paul Gascoigne at this time from this years nomination process”.
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Do you know if these ongoing enquiries,and concerns over the state of Paul’s health.Were these ongoing enquiries and concerns looked at before or after it was made public PG was to be nominated?
And if there were enquiries and concerns why make PG name public?
slimjim 12th October 2018 at 19:39
Homunculus 19.22
Nothing to be gained by naming the person involved.
============================
So why bother bringing it up in the first place then?
No need to reply sj we all know why.
Cluster One 19.18
I just find the term bandied about far too often these days.
Beckenbauer, Baresi, Cryuff, Maradona, Messi, Iniesta are imo world class.
They all shone consistently on the highest stage whether at club or international level.
We in this country refer to players in the same terms despite them never reaching this standard or indeed even coming close to it.
Just my opinion.
Shug 19.50
To use as a comparison to those who mentioned Paul’s well known problems as a reason as to why he shouldn’t be inducted into the HOF.
slimjim 12th October 2018 at 19:10
slimjim I know of at least 11 players who have done the same as gazza but there would be nothing to gain by naming them,
(Can't help myself.)
…and Rangers FC were undeniably world class…cheats.
Just a fact.
And The Rangers FC is arguably shaping up nicely to becoming world class cheats as well.
Just my opinion.
Have a nice day.
slimjim 12th October 2018 at 19:53
Shug 19.50
To use as a comparison to those who mentioned Paul’s well known problems as a reason as to why he shouldn’t be inducted into the HOF.
===================================
You yourself have now quoted the release which talks about
"… due to a number of factors including ongoing enquiries,and concerns over the state of Paul’s health…"
It doesn't actually mention his historic troubles or in fact his mental health, it just talks about his health, have people just added the mental health bit in themselves or do you have another link. The man would appear to have a lot of health issues, though not being medically trained it would be inappropriate for me to try to say what they were.
So you alluding to, but not actually mentioning, someone else was nothing more than whataboutery.
Though whoever thought it was a good idea to induct someone who was arrested for sexual assault a couple of months ago, and with the investigation ongoing needs to really have a look at their decision making. Its hardly sending out the right message.
I find it stunning that people don't get that.
theredpill 20.01
Only 11?
A player who represented Scotland last night was questioned by the Police regarding an assault on his girlfriend/wife two years ago but after an intervention by his club no charges were brought.
Will be interested to see if he is nominated in the years to come.
Casting one’s beagle eye over the Gascogne maybe someone called Billy Harrier with a Husky voice phoned his friend jack Russell and after eating some Bolognese and listening to some ELO they thought Kanni let this little Shih Tzu be nominated…Chow Chow for now.
theredpill 12th October 2018 at 20:01
slimjim 12th October 2018 at 19:10
slimjim I know of at least 11 players who have done the same as gazza but there would be nothing to gain by naming them,
=============================================
You know of at least 11 football players who are currently being investigations re allegations of sexual assault.
How many are getting inducted into the Scottish football hall of fame.
Two words which I assume normally send shivers down the spines of the members of Club 1872 are to be found in the following extract from their statement on the Gascoigne matter:
“If not, then many more than him will need to be stripped of this accolade or be deemed ineligible for induction.”
Can you spot them?
(No prizes)
The Club 1872 statement could not have missed the point any more if they had tried JC.
Firstly the reason for withdrawing the nomination would appear to be in relation to an ongoing investigation into alleged sexual assault. Not his more historic off field activities.
Secondly, according to SlimJim they never actually mentioned his mental health, just a general comment on his health.
Thirdly they talk an awful lot about the SFA, who as I understand it neither nominate players or decide on who gets inducted.
I would also question why a Community Interest Company is involving itself in this at all. What community is it they think they are benefiting by releasing such a statement.
Slim jim: when does a player become world class?
_____________
I've always believed that when a player is lauded by the media and fans of countries that have no link to that player (taking bias and parochialism out of the equation) then that player is most likely world class. We don't need to listen to Barca or Argentina fans to realise Messi is world class. We all know.
In my 40 odd years as a football fan there has been only one Scottish player who I would consider truly world class and more importantly the rest of the world did too. A player who for a 3 year period in the seventies was a regular in international teams of the year as voted for by Italian and Spanish football magazines.
as good as Souness and Dalgliesh were, I don't think either of them quite had the same international respect that Danny McGrain had.
CO, you reminded me of my favourite canine quip.
I was at a zoo recently, and they only had a dog on display.
…it was a Shih Tzu.
OK, I'm definitely away for a walk now.
https://twitter.com/theadmiralbar/status/1050822685742288896?s=21
The SFA and Scottish international football summed up in one tweet.
StevieBC 12th October 2018 at 21:02 ………… Ok PAL. That's it enough already
In an idle moment, I looked up the Hall of Fame scottishfootballhalloffame.co.uk/
It is,of course, a permanent feature of the Museum. The web-page tells you that you can nominate and how to do it.. It does not tell you who serves on the Committee which chooses from the nominations who should be admitted to the Hall of Fame.
It is a Committee of the Board.
The Board is currently constituted of :
Heather Barton (SFA)
Gordon Armstrong ( Senior Library and Cultural Venues manager [of what??]
Rhona Arthur . Glasgow City Council executive officer
Robert Craig Librarian [for theMuseum? or Glasgow City libraries, or what?]
Peter Dallas (no occupation)
Archie Graham , Glasgow City Councillor (Langside)
and good old Alan Macrae of the SFA, and that EBT recipient , RC Ogilvie.
I wonder which three or five or whatever number of these persons sit as the Committee on Hall of Fame nominations?
my last post
"as voted for by Italian and Spanish football magazines"
Of, course I meant FANS in Italian and Spanish football magazines
Cluster One 9th October 2018 at 22:07
24 0 Rate This
Tuesday, 09 October 2018, 13:45
by Rangers Football Club
RANGERS International Football Club PLC is pleased to announce that Barry Scott is rejoining its Board of Directors.
Barry left the Board for a short time earlier this year in order to attend to other business affairs and the Board is delighted that he is now able to offer his services again and contribute to the continued success of the Company.
…………………..
And just the other day we were posting why he left…..Strange one
………………………
Something i forgot to ask the other day.
At the time when Barry Scott left the the board, was there a statement that Barry Scott had left in order to attend to other business affairs and after a short time when his affairs are completed he will return. Or was there just a statement he had left?
And if there was a statement why he left was there also a statement why Paul Murray had left.And after a short time will PM return?
https://twitter.com/bbcsport/status/1050868715527360512?s=21
Please be true. Champions League, you’re having a ?
I don't think there is any chance I will be inducted into the SF Hall of Fame.
And I've done nothing wrong! Only venial sins.
But I can't play football. It's an injustice.
Why do multinationals like Coca Cola, VISA, McD's still invest in sports marketing?
There must be a tipping point where their risk assessment indicates that their money should be invested in more honest pursuits.
Then football will just be left with bookies, booze, and wonga-loans type sponsors.
StevieBC 13th October 2018 at 04:09
I can't imagine the directors of these companies are so steeped in honour and integrity that they'd view having to pull their sponsorship from a cheating beneficiary of their largess as anything other than an opportunity for free advertising and a display of their own (very questionable) high moral standards.
Sun alert.
Only reporting the obvious, but interestingly TRFC claim that demand for the strips had been 'exceptional', so I would imagine, if that equates to 'exceptional' sales, JD Sports will have taken their cut and TRFC will be liable for any share SDI claim! Plus fees and expenses, not to mention possible further legal action. Another King led loss making foray into spivworld?
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3340893/rangers-jd-sports-new-home-strip-kit-top-hummel-mike-ashley-sports-direct/
theredpill 20.01
Only 11?
A player who represented Scotland last night was questioned by the Police regarding an assault on his girlfriend/wife two years ago but after an intervention by his club no charges were brought.
Will be interested to see if he is nominated in the years to come.
Ach ma sarcasm is wasted on here.?
Just had a look at the membership of the Hal of Fame. I don't have any gripes with any of them, but it's puzzling to see people like David Hay and Joe Harper to name but two not on the list.
Kris Boyd
When the trouble behind the scenes at celtic does not work switch to there is trouble behind the scenes in the scotland camp.
Is this as far as KB's journalistic quality goes?
Allyjambo 13th October 2018 at 09:52
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3340893/rangers-jd-sports-new-home-strip-kit-top-hummel-mike-ashley-sports-direct/
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All profits will go to pay legal bills by the look of things.
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Loved this part.
SunSport Online has asked JD Sports and Rangers for comment.
……..
And?
This caught my eye on the same page.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3337675/rangers-partnership-canada-montreal-rangers-north-america/…………………………………………….“The next stage will be Montreal Rangers players coming across to experience an elite environment at Rangers, along with seeing some of Scotland’s historic landmarks.
….
to experience an elite environment. They will get that alright, just hope no one takes offence to the singing.
For the avoidance of doubt…
[It helps if you mentally picture that Harry Enfield character / cab driver in the pub talking p!sh about highly unlikely events.]
If The Hall of Fame at Hampden ever wants to induct me, I'll say "No! I will not allow my image to be associated with the corruption at Hampden. But I insist that EBT McLeish be moved into the Museum immediately as a live, interactive exhibit."
Just putting it out there.
As for the friendly tomorrow against Portugal.
Wonder what the 'official' crowd size will be, especially if Ronaldo isn't playing, (?)
To be honest, if I was home and he was playing…I would probably grudgingly buy the SFA tickets and take the wife to the Hampden Athletics Stadium to see a proper football genius.
Mibbees the SFA has already sold a lot of tickets on the expectation / condition that he plays at least some of the 90 minutes?
StevieBC 13th October 2018 at 15:06
'..Mibbees the SFA has already sold a lot of tickets on the expectation '
_________________________
It was known a number of days ago that your man would not be playing, StevieBC. Nevertheless the official word is that 23,000 tickets have been sold.( In this sad world of ours, one wonders whether it might always have been the case that Ronaldo would not travel, never mindplay: honest to God, that wretched SDM ,and the 5-Way Agreement, have made me suspicious of anything to do with Scottish Football)
Re Gascoigne
I think nearly anyone on here who knows anything about football would agree that Paul Gasgoine was a fantastic footballer.
However when it comes to Non-Scots the nomination criteria for the Hall of Fame is as follows:-
2) Non Scottish players who have made a significant contribution to Scottish football and who have since finished playing in Scotland.
Gascoigne only played three seasons (104 games) in Scotland for Rangers.
His performances elsewhere and at other times are of no relevance to Scottish Football whatsoever other than acknowledging that his footballing genius helped England dump Scotland out of Euro 96.
In 97 he had a five match ban for violent conduct. Later in the same season his club fined him £20k for his flute playing antics.
Once he left Rangers he never again graced a Scottish park in anger.
His career when down the tubes pretty quickly and most return visits to Scotland appear to be related to attending dubious gatherings of Bears who like a community sing song.
If the Bears are looking for a Non-Scot with a significant contribution to Scottish Football then (EBTs aside) surely someone like Stefan Klos (played 298 games for Rangers and won 10 trophies compared to Gascoigne's 4) would be ahead in the queue.
I am afraid, once again, those nominating a deeply trouble man have been blinded by the moonbeams on this one.
wottpi 13th October 2018 at 15:48
I am afraid, once again, those nominating a deeply trouble man have been blinded by the moonbeams on this one.
…………………………………..
And that i believe is were the finger should be pointed to. Not the hall of fame committee or the SFA as were the finger is pointing,
If vinny jones and the like are outraged that the snub could send poor paul back to boozing because of the honour u- turn.And if Ally McCoist is demanding to know who ordered the axe and hope it does not affect PG in any way should stop and think for a minute before they open their mouths. If your pal is so fragile ask yourself this. Who bloody put him up for nomination in the first place. And if you find out ask them why would you put someone in such a fragile state for nomination, would it not have been better to see how PG is at a later date?
That Ally McCoist always demanding things. Why did he not demand when he had his golden contract why his same club who finished second could not play in europe the following year. Demand to know why that was Ally or just shut the feck up before you ruin the security of some other guys family.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1044640652678565888?p=v
wottpi 13th October 2018 at 15:48
7 1 Rate This
Re Gascoigne Gascoigne only played three seasons (104 games) in Scotland for Rangers.
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Former #CelticFC striker Georgios Samaras has announced his retirement from football. 2⃣5⃣3⃣ Appearances 7⃣4⃣ Goals 4⃣ League titles 2⃣ Scottish Cups 1⃣ League Cup Thanks for the memories, Sammi! pic.twitter.com/10cxuNFKaK
Big sammy must be a shoe-in for the HOF next year, if not i demand to know why not.
https://mobile.twitter.com/CelticFC/status/1050682584953442304/photo/1
Perhaps the nomination was made before the alleged sexual assault. I don't know when the nominations are made.
If so I blame the committee for going ahead with announcing him as an inductee with that still being investigated.
Or did they think that could simply be ignored.
A quote from the DR's report of Barry Scott's return to the RIFC/TRFC(?) board. It interested me in that I do not remember any reason being given for Murray's departure at the time, and the one given here hardly seems likely to be the genuine reason for his leaving as he hung on long enough as King's, and others', mouthpiece/toady during the club's whole history of no major trophies.
'Murray's departure came after he was said to have grown disillusioned with a lack of success on the pitch, despite being a close confidant of chairman Dave King.'
Needless to say the DR conflates the club and holding company by stating in the headline and the narrative that Scott has rejoined the club's board, while quoting the club as saying he's rejoined the board of RIFC. For once I believe the club's PR spouter. The article almost gets juicy, though, but it's as though something was about to be said and was pulled on the orders of…well, who? when it went on to say:
'No such reasons were given for Scott's departure though and the lifelong Rangers fan is now back at Ibrox and has resumed his role as a club director.'
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-reappoint-barry-scott-former-13389154
I do wonder, though, if it is normal for a company director to resign from a board whenever he has to attend to 'other business affairs' as this would surely throw most companies into disarray. It's the norm for many director type chappies to hold directorships at a number of companies, and to also have, at the same time, 'other business affairs' of a never ending nature! I'd have thought a leave of absence would be all that was required in a properly run company rather than to resign, without any explanation to shareholders, then return only a few months later!
I agree AJ.
Loads of people hold multiple directorships, running a PLC which holds 100% of the shares in a football club is not going to be a full time job. The board of the club itself and the management team will be expected to do that.
The other business stuff is smoke and mirrors in my view. Pure guess work, his return to the board of the PLC relates directly to new shareholders buying into it. Their man on the board sort of thing.