Launch of SFSA Fans’ Survey

Avatar ByAuldheid

Launch of SFSA Fans’ Survey

LAUNCH OF THE FIRST INDEPENDENT EVALUATION OF SCOTTISH FOOTBALL GOVERNANCE BY THE SCOTTISH FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS ASSOCIATION (SFSA)

 

Representatives from various fan groups, including the Scottish Football Monitor took up the invitation to the above event which is largely self-explanatory. The scene was set with the following agenda

 

 

 

 

Media Briefing.

SURVEY TO SET BENCHMARK FOR FUTURE EVALUATION OF NATIONAL GAME

 WHEN:                             Thursday, 20TH July 2017 at 11AM

WHERE:                           Scottish Parliament – Committee Room 4

WHO                                Simon Barrow (Chair of the SFSA), Henry McLeish (Board member of the SFSA), Richard Leonard MSP (member of Scottish Parliament for Central Scotland and host of event) and Dr Joachim Lammert (The Department of Sports Economics and Sports Management at the University of Leipzig)

 

The first independent evaluation of Scottish football governance will be launched by The Scottish Football Supporters Association (SFSA).

 

The SFSA’s nationwide survey will assess, for the first time, supporters’ views on the current position of the game, including the performance of the game’s governing bodies in Scotland.  The research will become an annual benchmarking & reporting exercise looking at all aspects of the game.

 

The SFSA’s online survey has been created in partnership with Prof. Dr. Axel Faix and Dr. Joachim Lammert, two experienced German academics who have undertaken similar evaluations on a national level in Germany and on a European level on topics including 50+1 (German football’s rules that a parent club must own at least 50% plus one share of the football company) and Financial Fair Play.  Their research has been backed by Football Supporters Europe and by German fans organisation, Unsere Kurve.

 

Fans will also be able to provide comment on their own club’s performance.

 

The SFSA, whose board includes former First Minister Henry McLeish; former MP and MSP Cathy Jamieson and Maureen McGonigle, Founder of Scottish Women in Sport and first female Scottish FA Council Member, has over 67,000 members supporting clubs across Scotland.

 

The SFSA is Scotland’s fans’ representative in The Football Supporters Europe network (FSE), an independent, representative and democratically organised grass-roots network of football fans’ in Europe with members in currently 48 countries across the continent.

 

The SFSA might be best thought of as movement appearing at a time when Scottish Football supporters are desperately seeking an alternative to the attitudes and events that have seen our game at best stand still and at worst decline, as changes in the way football has grown as a global industry  have left us marooned on our own small patch of God’s earth.

 

If the two maxims that

  • a problem cannot be solved by the mind that created it and
  • if you cannot manage (and therefore improve) what you cannot measure

are true, then the SFSA professional idea to making change happen offers a different approach to the past by introducing new thinking and using tested scientific metrics on a survey model used successfully in Germany, where the game is light years ahead of Scotland’s by any measure.

The arrival of this movement is crucial, and in the words of SFSA Board member Henry McLeish, ex footballer and former First Minister of Scotland; “Scottish Football is at a Watershed”.

Few if any who love our game would argue with that. We love football because it is in our blood, it plays a key part in the social interplay of Scottish society and it is too important not to now say  “Enough!”

It is clear that the medicine of the past, an approach to the game which excludes it’s life blood, (no wonder it is ill) is no longer efficacious – if indeed it ever was.

To continue with that same prescription would fall foul of that other maxim; “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”.

Thus the SFSA, who are independent of current Scottish football authorities (SFA/SFL), offer an opportunity to break that insane cycle by offering a new approach, which sees it’s first duty as asking the fans what they think, and they are seeking to do exactly that by enacting a comprehensive nationwide survey of fans’ views and attitudes. The survey, created by a team of research academics at Leipzig University will present, in a cohesive way, the views and thoughts of Scottish football fans concerning the health of the game in Scotland through their own own clubs, the SPFL, and the SFA .

The higher the number who complete the survey and articulating their views, the more weight and authority the survey’s outcomes will carry when the SFSA presents them to current authority and government.

 

SFM hopes that as many people as possible will take part in an exercise that offers real hope of change by clicking below

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/sfsa-benchmark-2017

and visit the SFSA page at

http://scottishfsa.org/have-your-say-now/

where the survey is explained and you can join the SFSA individually.

 

This may be our last chance as lovers of Scottish football to restore its integrity and trust in our football authorities who have lost sight of those values in pursuit of commercial concerns.

 

To the cynics whose past experience of calling for change discourages them (and who can blame them for it’s taken lifetimes) one last maxim.

 

If you don’t buy a ticket, you don’t win the lottery.

 

Roll Up, Roll Up https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/sfsa-benchmark-2017

Big Pink Comment:

Like Auldheid, I am encouraged by the birth of the SFSA and its determination to procure the views of supporters. There are enough people involved in the initiative with clear views about the harm that inherent self-interest on the part of the clubs has brought to our game.

I was less encouraged by the conciliatory tone of Henry McLeish, in public at least, towards those in power at Hampden. For example he said that Scottish football folk viewed outside bodies with suspicion, and that was often understandable.

My take is that they only view anyone wishing to become proactive with that suspicion (and fear). They have never viewed my cash with anything other than hungry eyes, far less suspicion.

The feeling in the room, when less formal discussion was taking place, was that the authorities and the clubs have refused to take fans’ views into account for too long.

Governance (particularly the lack of and the ‘making it up as we go’ varieties), FFP and Strict Liability were all subjects of those discussions. These are all nettles that MUST be grasped in public, and the sooner the better, if fans’ views are to be properly reflected.

I am hopeful that the weight of dissatisfaction I expect to see as a result of this ambitious survey will compel a change in tone by McLeish and his colleagues.

One final note of concern is that a group like SFSA, which after all hopes to represent fans at the top table, appears to have a board overly comprised of folk from the political, business and academic spheres. Some grass roots participation is vital moving forward. Hopefully that is also on the agenda.

About the author

Avatar

Auldheid author

Celtic fan from Glasgow living mostly in Spain. A contributor to several websites, discussion groups and blogs, and a member of the Resolution 12 Celtic shareholders' group. Committed to sporting integrity, good governance, and the idea that football is interdependent. We all need each other in the game.

629 Comments so far

Avatar

HighlanderPosted on8:07 am - Jul 21, 2017


Below is a long and rambling email I’ve sent to Hearts’ Ann Budge, in light of no condemnation or punishment by the SPFL over the Supreme Court EBT ruling.

Dear Ann
 
As a board member of the SPFL, you will be well aware of the contortions that have been gone through in recent weeks to avoid punishing a football club which was confirmed guilty of industrial scale cheating over a period of around a decade.
 
You might however be unaware of the scale of resentment that the prospect of such inaction is having on the Scottish domestic football fanbase. Stewart Regan of the SFA has attempted to trivialise the matter as mere point scoring by fans of bitter rivals Celtic. Like most things which come out of Mr Regan’s mouth on the subject of Rangers, this is a blatant lie, which flies in the face of the fact that supporters of 41 of our 42 senior clubs have demanded that titles and trophies be expunged from the record books as a result of the recent Supreme Court decision, which effectively established that Rangers FC was guilty of paying its staff by the equivalent of under the counter payments of cash stuffed in brown paper envelopes, and crucially, failing to inform the football authorities of the details of such payments, as required by the football authorities’ rules.
 
Let me first of all address the matter of any illegality being dismissed as purely Oldco’s fault, allied to the fact that they’re no longer around to exact restitution from, or apply any sanction to.
 
Could you point to any other club in the considerable history of Scottish football who have had to introduce the concept of the separation of an incorporated club into distinct entities labelled ‘club’ and ‘company’ to suit whichever specific agenda is being fostered on any given day, and to morph between those two entities when the circumstances dictate?  
 
Ever since football has existed as a professional sport, clubs have lived and died by the actions of their board of directors and faced the often critical consequences of their decision making. Rangers FC died as a direct result of the massive overspending and ‘speculate to accumulate’ policy of its board. The new club clearly has no legal responsibility for the debts incurred, or other misdeeds carried out, by the old club, but that does not stop the record books from being appropriately amended to reflect those tainted titles.  
 
To put this club/company issue in context, when Hearts had a 15 point deduction imposed in 2013 for going into administration, a penalty which ultimately relegated us, the financial meltdown that resulted in insolvency was undeniably the fault of the previous owner Vladimir Romanov and his board, but it was the football club that played the following season in the First Division following the ignominy of relegation, not a seemingly meaningless and expendable company, as Rangers would have us believe are the only affected party.
 
Rod McKenzie, the ‘go to’ legal authority on all matters relating to Scottish football rules and regulations, indeed he drafted many of them, admitted in a court of law that the concept of an ethereal, immortal club was one which the law had yet to catch up with. That admission, that the club currently playing out of Ibrox isn’t legally the same club as the one formed in 1872, is a crushing blow for those such as Neil Doncaster who subscribe to the ‘same club’ myth.
 
Mr McKenzie helpfully outlined his vision of a Club (ethereal/immortal/but not legal) in warm and fuzzy tones, in effect saying that it was the same as the recently deceased club because it played in the same colours, in the same stadium, in front of the same fans. Nobody thought to ask him why Gretna 2008 aren’t the same club as the one which was liquidated a short time before, especially given the remarkable similarities to Mr McKenzie’s qualifying criteria, right down to the purchase of the assets of the old club ‘a la Charles Green’. Gretna weren’t afforded the luxury of a contrived separation between club and company and neither were Airdrieonians, Clydebank and Third Lanark before them. 
 
Mr McKenzie also said in 2013, and I quote:
 
“There was never any doubt but that the use of EBTs gave a competitive advantage over other clubs which did not use them.” That statement, the accuracy of which was confirmed in court recently by none other than Sir David Murray himself, is all the more compelling when laid beside the Supreme Court verdict, although we can only guess why the subject of sporting advantage was put before the LNS Commission in the first place, given that it has not been a factor to consider in even one other solitary instance of disciplinary matters relating to registration issues.
 
For example, nobody asked whether a competitive advantage was gained when Spartans failure to correctly complete a registration form resulted in them being expelled from a cup competition and nobody asked whether a sporting advantage was gained when various players, including unused substitutes, were improperly registered by way of minor infringements to the SFA rules, but that didn’t stop the authorities from ordering the expulsion of  those unfortunate clubs from their respective competitions. Going further afield, Legia Warsaw unwittingly introduced an ineligible player with only a few minutes to go in the 2nd leg of a Champions League match in which they were trouncing Celtic 6-1. Sporting advantage never came into the equation as UEFA kicked Legia out of the competition for breaking the rules, even although the ineligible player clearly had no impact on the outcome of the tie, so no advantage accrued.
 
Which begs the question, what is it about Rangers that they seem to have a rulebook all to themselves? Every other club and the football authorities appear to be in permanent thrall to them to the extent that they can commit self-inflicted suicide and blame everyone else with absolute impunity. They seem to be a uniquely protected species, being immune from prosecution and punishment, as amply demonstrated by the SFA’s ‘move along, nothing to see here’ policy on EBTs and cheating.  
 
As I understand it, at the time of Rangers demise, the football authorities’ rulebooks had copious rules and regulations about the consequences of clubs going into administration, including what would happen to clubs such as Livingston and Dundee who had suffered a second administration. The fact that these comprehensive rulebooks never covered what would happen if a club went into liquidation is proof positive that it was always envisaged that liquidation meant death, so what would be the point of providing advice for a dead club? Describing a club’s demise through liquidation as a mere change of corporate structure is an insult to the intelligence of an eight-year-old and is worthy of the type of glib and shameless liar status normally reserved for David King.
 
Finally, if I were to give you marks in respect of how you’ve performed your dual role with both Hearts and the SPFL board, I’d happily give you 95 out of 100 for the former, but minus 95 for the latter. It is bitterly disappointing that you have maintained a silence regarding the Supreme Court decision on EBTs and not, as an absolute minimum, backed Celtic’s statement. A clearer case of deliberate cheating on a massive scale is difficult to envisage, yet no action is likely to be taken. Can you just imagine the punishment that would be dished out if it was Hearts who’d been found guilty of charges of this magnitude? It doesn’t bear thinking about, and neither does your continued inaction.

View Comment

Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on9:28 am - Jul 21, 2017


  Jeezo Ryan. Ever since they jumped the queue into the league systems, Sevco have done nothing but, break the rules. stoke up ill-will, and trample over our game. Hypocracy WOULD be wishing them well. 
   Y’Know the funny thing is, I was always 100% behind the real Rangers in Europe throughout all the cheating years, but that was when I was unaware of what they had been up to. Now in hindsight, I absolutely loathe them for the devastation and deceit they brought to our game. 
   I want their cheating officially documented, not only in the court-rooms, but in the annulls of fitba’ history as a lesson to others. With that my loathing will cease. Call it a healing process. 
   As Sevco basically consist of much the same staff, have much the same ethos, and indeed kid-on to be the same club, and even claim the same titles, there is an old adage I will adhere to. “Fool me once, shame on me”.
   Well shamed I was. How is that for Scottish representation?..I won’t be shamed again,
    All available “knowns” at the moment point to them playing in Europe, does break the rules. Until they prove otherwise, that will be my default position.
   I will not wish well on a club who has a criminal as it’s largest shareholder, and has no place in Scottish fitba. If Sevco want my well wishes, they can clean up their act, and prove themselves worthy of any form of respect to me.
   Scottish fitba is offering both Sevco and the SFA the chance to clear their name and sullied reputation. 
   Are you for that or against Ryan? 

View Comment

Avatar

wottpiPosted on9:32 am - Jul 21, 2017


If Celtic have the wherewithal to prove a special area for ‘special fans, surely they could also put together a team of specialist stewards made up of Glasgow’ biggest and burliest to enforce exactly what type of banners the club find acceptable.
Polite requests are clearly no longer enough.
The logic behind silly symbolism that sees the club fined, yet again, and one of your top striker banned is beyond belief when put up against the disbenefits.
Fines for 5 bookings is part of the game. The other stuff we can do without.

View Comment

Avatar

Big PinkPosted on9:49 am - Jul 21, 2017


Wottpi

Don’t disagree with any of those views, and although the solution to the problem is more appropriate to Celtic circles, I would be loathe to equate Griffiths’ behaviour which is a childish wind-up, with the purposeful action of a group of people who care little for the consequences it has on the club, morally and legally.
The tragedy of the GB is that they can often be funny, creative, colourful and inspiring; but that is more than offset by behaviour of the kind that we saw on Wednesday.
Crucially for Celtic, they should be easier to deal with because they are in one place. Perhaps Strict Liability coupled with sporting penalties would better encourage clubs and fans to deal with it once and for all.

View Comment

Avatar

The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty?Posted on10:40 am - Jul 21, 2017


HighlanderJuly 21, 2017 at 08:07

Absolutely superb, Highlander.

“Chapeau!!!”

If that doesn’t illicit a response, nothing will.

I’ve never been a fan of the “multiple copy & paste” complaints procedure. In my opinion a single, well written, thoughtfully constructed and respectfully presented correspondence from a genuinely concerned and passionate “customer” is more likely to get a response than a barrage of identical complaints.

If the “head honcho” of every SPFL club which has suggested that there should be nothing done about the decade(s) of systematic cheating, or hasn’t commented at all about the issue, were to receive this email from one of their fans it might generate some boardroom discussion or, better still, move them to elicit their own fans’ opinions and issue a statement.

If one fan from each of the clubs represented on this forum contacted his/her club using Highlander’s email as a template and then posted on here that they had done so (to prevent other fans of the same club from duplicating, and thus reducing its effect) it might produce a very positive result.

Clubs may not know that their fans are angry, or why? Highlander’s email explains it – in spades.
 

View Comment

Avatar

goosygoosyPosted on10:41 am - Jul 21, 2017


BIG PINKJULY 21, 2017 at 09:49       Rate This 
Wottpi
Don’t disagree with any of those views, and although the solution to the problem is more appropriate to Celtic circles, I would be loathe to equate Griffiths’ behaviour which is a childish wind-up, with the purposeful action of a group of people who care little for the consequences it has on the club, morally and legally.The tragedy of the GB is that they can often be funny, creative, colourful and inspiring; but that is more than offset by behaviour of the kind that we saw on Wednesday.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Not in my Name
The tragedy of the GB is that they are still here 
They should have been banned sine die years ago after their first offence

View Comment

Avatar

armchairsupporterPosted on10:46 am - Jul 21, 2017


HIGHLANDERJULY 21, 2017 at 08:07 7 Votes
Dear Ann As a board member of the SPFL, you will be well aware of the contortions that have been gone through in recent weeks to avoid punishing a football club which was confirmed guilty of industrial scale cheating over a period of around a decade.
————————————
outstanding!

Thanks also to John Clark and others for contacts uni get to keep us informed.

i have to feel for Ryan G. He is stuck in a difficult position until, as Corrupt Official points out, his team starts to build bridges and play by the same rules as everyone else.

View Comment

Avatar

ChristyboyPosted on11:28 am - Jul 21, 2017


Any word from the SPFL yet ? Time to dust down Brenda’s clock me thinks.

View Comment

Avatar

easyJamboPosted on12:36 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Christyboy July 21, 2017 at 11:28 
Any word from the SPFL yet ? Time to dust down Brenda’s clock me thinks.
========================
I think they will delay any announcement until their AGM on Monday, when they will attempt to bury the info in a pre-prepared press release about the new appointees to the SFFL Board.

View Comment

valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on12:43 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Great post by Highlander.

It is a real worry and sad state of affairs that fans are having to ask their clubs to react to cheating that was (off the radar). Why has only one club at this time made a statement, this is a major concern.  If things are going on in the background fair enough but just issue a small statement to reassure fans would be appreciated.
Fans want the cheating to be addressed no matter the consequences.  Remember back when the term Armageddon was used by SFA/SPFL if the oldco was removed from the SPFL, clubs would go to the wall our beloved smsm stated/ predicted. Civil unrest bandied about. They shirked their responsibility and similar cowardice is again blowing in the air.
The highest court in the land states that it was not loans it was earnings that the players received (in the region of 55 players), so unfair advantage gained in Scotland, in Europe and in International games that these players competed in for ELEVEN years. It is ridiculous that fans have to ask the clubs to recognise this level of cheating and do something about it. It is beyond believe for an outsider to take in the inaction of our SFA and SPFL but we as insiders in Scotland have to accept this corrupt governing body and it’s protection of a one 5 year old club and the history of a deceased club, only in Scotland could this happen.
When oldco jumped the queue with their made up conditional license and were admitted into the 3rd Div, no clubs went to the wall , more clubs outside Glasgow won silverware, several clubs became financially stable so no Armageddon took place.  The cry was no blue pound from many circles but alas no repercussions of this cry were announced.   So this cannot be the reason clubs are quiet at the moment on this issue of known cheating. As fans we can do something as we did back in 2012 and our clubs should be aware that this can be repeated.  I feel more angry now than I did back in 2012 and the attitude of the board and fans of newco have installed this anger and all I want is justice for cheating.  Cheating if caught gets punished and they were caught. Eleven years of playing with players registered illegally, not paying tax and some of the same board members are on the board of the new club which is an ongoing concern and our sporting governing bodies at this present time are silent.
Do not make this a Celtic v Newco issue make it what it is, Cheating B******* v the whole of sporting integrity in Scotland.

View Comment

woodstein

woodsteinPosted on12:51 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Highlander
July 21, 2017 at 08:07

The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty?
July 21, 2017 at 10:40
———————————————————————–
Highlander
What a great first post for a new blog.04

The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty?
 What a great idea04

View Comment

Avatar

AuldheidPosted on1:07 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Highlander
That post expresses the feelings of all supporters who are aware of what the SFA/SPFL and media have been trying to bury.
It’s now out on Twitter. It’s the kind of words that need a wide audience.

View Comment

Barcabhoy

BarcabhoyPosted on1:31 pm - Jul 21, 2017


1 The SPFL has guaranteed TV revenue for 3 years
2 Many clubs have record season book sales
3 Debt has been removed in most clubs
So ??
Why have SPFL clubs been silent so far , with the exception of Celtic , on the implications of the Supreme Court verdict
The argument is made that many are working hard just to make ends meet.
Fair enough , but when was that ever not the case in Scottish football.

 Are we to believe that there will never be an environment where clubs have an appetite to get Four-square behind the notion of Sporting Integrity ?

 
That can’t possibly be the case , otherwise why bother having a rule book .
Some clubs though are in relative robust financial health, their supporters have dug deep to help finance recent achievements.

 Don’t they deserve the respect , from club directors , of ensuring their club is treated exactly the same way as every club. Not every club bar 1

 
I’m looking particularly at Hearts , Aberdeen, Hibernian and St Johnstone. You have no excuses for silence , certainly not personal ambition for positions at the SFA or SPFL.
Do you really want your legacies to read :

 
I was scared to do the right thing in case we jeopardised some ticket revenue.
So I turned a blind eye to the actions of the authorities and 13 years of rule breaches by a member club “

 

That’s what you want to tell your grandchildren ?

If Clubs can’t speak out when they have guaranteed revenue, record fan support , are debt free and succesful , when CAN they be trusted to put Integrity at the top of their list of priorities…….or even on it .

View Comment

Avatar

roddybhoyPosted on1:42 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Joined up, took the survey and emailed everyone I can think of to take part too. Think I will leave messages on all teams fans forums just incase they are nt aware of things. One big misgiving… Henry McLeish …. The bare minimum we need is  a total clear out of all the guilty corrupt members of the SFA and SPFL …………..no kiss and Make up Henry it aint gonna wash

View Comment

paddy malarkey

paddy malarkeyPosted on2:03 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Barca,
it may be pointed out to them that they have guaranteed income, record fan support, are debt-free and successful precisely because they are toeing the party line and letting the professionals run the scam . It should also be borne in mind that board members of other clubs may have affection for or even affiliation to RIFC/TRFC and would like to keep damage minimal(if you ignore the death in the family).My guess is that it wouldn’t be 41/1 split but would be more polarised . 

View Comment

Avatar

John ClarkPosted on2:27 pm - Jul 21, 2017


HighlanderJuly 21, 2017 at 08:07
‘……Could you point to any other club in the considerable history of Scottish football who have had to introduce the concept of the separation of an incorporated club into distinct entities labelled ‘club’ and ‘company’ to suit whichever specific agenda is being fostered on any given day, and to morph between those two entities when the circumstances dictate?  ‘
___________
Just 5 minutes before I read your splendid piece, Highlander,I was reading an example of the fear-induced ?or partisan-inspired? schizophrenic attitude that prevails among even those who actually KNOW better when it comes to speaking or writing about the death of Rangers.
Here is an extract from what Mr Paul Noble (head of tax investigations at legal firm Pinsent Masons) has written in today’s Scotsman on “Putting Employee Benefit Trusts in the spotlight”:
“The case centred on payments made to footballers using EBT tax avoidance schemes by Murray International Holdings (MIH), the then-owner of Rangers, and other group companies to employees between 2001 and 2009. RFC 2012 went into liquidation in 2012…” 
Now, there is nothing untrue in what is said there. But note how no mention is made of the fact that RFC 2012 is Rangers Football Club of 1872. It’s as if Mr Noble couldn’t find the nerve to identify the club in liquidation by its original name, or sought to avoid putting in print the fact that it was  the real Rangers that died, not some other facsimile of a club.
And he goes on to write ” ..and the current Rangers Football Club  was not a party to the case”, rather than use in careful  lawyer-like fashion the distinctive and proper name of the new club playing at Ibrox to show clearly that it is precisely because it is “The Rangers Football Club Ltd” and NOT Rangers Football Club(IL) that the new club was not party to the  case.
Quite extraordinary, and to me, a little bit shabby.
His article incidentally ends with a little puff for providers of tax advice: ” It is clear that anyone who has benefited from an EBT…….should take appropriate advice on their affairs”
That little sentence sends a delightful shiver of schadenfreude upo the spine!

View Comment

StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on3:34 pm - Jul 21, 2017


“…One final note of concern is that a group like SFSA, which after all hopes to represent fans at the top table, appears to have a board overly comprised of folk from the political, business and academic spheres. Some grass roots participation is vital moving forward…”
==================================================

Yes BP, my immediate thought was: “Why are politicians involved now?”
They have been hiding for the last 5 years or so, and been extremely reluctant to get involved. 
Perhaps they are needed to get a higher profile, media coverage, etc. ?

Just don’t trust politicians though – and hope none of those involved will use SFSA for their own ends.
[…but that’s what politicians do!  03]

Anyways, seems like a step in the right direction, and ‘should’ produce something tangible.

And I would expect it will be more successful than the fans’ own survey a few years back.
IIRC : 18K responded and the 2 guys who organised it then met with Doncaster [?] – but their meeting was in confidence, and Doncaster sidelined them, and nipped that particular initiative in the bud.

This survey ‘should’ carry more weight, and the results ‘should’ then be managed on a more professional / effective basis, IMO.

Worth a punt. 

View Comment

Avatar

upthehoopsPosted on4:41 pm - Jul 21, 2017


BIG PINKJULY 21, 2017 at 09:49       Rate This 
Don’t disagree with any of those views, and although the solution to the problem is more appropriate to Celtic circles, I would be loathe to equate Griffiths’ behaviour which is a childish wind-up, with the purposeful action of a group of people who care little for the consequences it has on the club, morally and legally.The tragedy of the GB is that they can often be funny, creative, colourful and inspiring; but that is more than offset by behaviour of the kind that we saw on Wednesday.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
===============================

Agree with all of that.  I was at the Celtic v Lyon friendly last week and the GB were absent. Apparently they were in dispute with Celtic over the use of flares at the last game of last season, and they were not being allowed access to their drums and megaphones.  They had talks with the club and were back on Wednesday night. I knew the moment the banner was unfurled what was coming. I see many complaints that the Scottish media are highlighting it to UEFA, and that may or may not be true, but why give them the opportunity in the first place? 

In my view there was a real missed opportunity on Wednesday. If banners had to be flown why not some relating to the stench of corruption surrounding the current inactivity of the authorities who can’t even acknowledge Rangers illegal use of EBT’s was wrong. I don’t know whether Celtic would still be fined by UEFA but the general support from the majority of fans and probably many other club’s fans would have have been immense in my view, and in that case what the media think is irrelevant.  

View Comment

Avatar

easyJamboPosted on5:06 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Celtic have acted on the GB by closing the section for two matches.
http://www.celticfc.net/news/12951

View Comment

Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on5:16 pm - Jul 21, 2017


HIGHLANDERJULY 21, 2017 at 08:07

Firstly, Highlander, can I thank you and commend you for that excellently worded communication to the chairperson of our club, I only hope she takes the time to read it and take it all in, but, alas, I do not think she will.

You may remember, towards the end of last season, she published a statement that, amongst many good things, included an aside that she was, basically, too busy to deal with (all?) communications from supporters, and, I presume she meant, on any subject.  

Much to my surprise, and I’m sure to that of most Hearts supporters, she also let us know that she couldn’t understand the attachment and sentimentality the fans felt towards the old stand. I took this as an indication that she doesn’t quite get what being a supporter is really all about, and that when you love your club, you love everything about it, including the buildings and terracings you sat in, stood on, and gazed upon while watching your club win great games and get hammered in others. I wouldn’t be surprised that she doesn’t get, either, the feeling that so many supporters, of all clubs, have over the cheating that every one of our clubs suffered at the hands of Rangers.

She may well be a very brave lady, prepared to stand up and speak out on what bothers and matters to her in life, business and football, but I doubt she will do anything about Hearts (and every other club) being cheated by Rangers, nor care that they are now represented by a new club that claims to be the old, unless it becomes detrimental to Hearts in a way that she ‘gets’.

Anyway, again, well done on composing that excellent email, Mrs Budge would do herself a favour should she read it, and an even bigger favour if she takes the time to take on board what you have articulated in it. You see, I am certain that she, along with the majority of the people running our clubs, has never taken the time to study and comprehend what has actually happened with Rangers and all that surrounds their EBTs and the subsequent fallout for Scottish football.

View Comment

Avatar

goosygoosyPosted on5:25 pm - Jul 21, 2017


STEVIEBC
JULY 21, 2017 at 15:34
 
“…One final note of concern is that a group like SFSA, which after all hopes to represent fans at the top table, appears to have a board overly comprised of folk from the political, business and academic spheres. Some grass roots participation is vital moving forward…” ==================================================
Yes BP, my immediate thought was: “Why are politicians involved now?” They have been hiding for the last 5 years or so, and been extremely reluctant to get involved.  Perhaps they are needed to get a higher profile, media coverage, etc. ?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Heard someone on the media today quote Harry Truman
When asked,
 “How can a poor person spend a lifetime in politics and still retire rich?”
He replied
“Stealing”
Which reminds me
Didn`t Henry McLeish resign from Holyrood in a scandal involving office expenses?
I hope Henry is  helping the SFSA for free ?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
And
On the subject of the SFSA Survey of fans

The independent German Academics should also be invited to design a series of SFSA  surveys to elicit and publish on social media the views of all 42 individual SPFL Clubs. on the significant topics raised at the launch meeting 
We will soon find out how many Clubs have the integrity to stand up and be counted when the chips are down

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on6:25 pm - Jul 21, 2017


The Green Brigade seem to think they are above and beyond the ordinary Celtic supporter.  WE ARE ULTRAS ! Big wow!  80% good times 20% a pure riddy.   I am so glad Celtic have punished these pure selfish people who don’t care.  And don’t get me started about their leaders fund raising efforts.  All for their self glorification/ defence.

View Comment

Avatar

bigboab1916Posted on6:29 pm - Jul 21, 2017


StevieBCJuly 21, 2017 at 15:34 
“…One final note of concern is that a group like SFSA, which after all hopes to represent fans at the top table, appears to have a board overly comprised of folk from the political, business and academic spheres. Some grass roots participation is vital moving forward…”
Yes BP, my immediate thought was: “Why are politicians involved now?” They have been hiding for the last 5 years or so, and been extremely reluctant to get involved.  Perhaps they are needed to get a higher profile, media coverage, etc. ?
Just don’t trust politicians though – and hope none of those involved will use SFSA for their own ends. […but that’s what politicians do!   ]

Richard Leonard MSP was with GMB and big better together campaigner was hounded in my place of work for trying to force views on ordinary Union members when it was not his place to influence people. He should have known better to accept all Union members do not have the same affliations to parties and not to use the union to further his party wishes.This led to members withdrawing a contribution from their dues to the Labour Party. So i know about politicians using situations to their advantage they have to be reminded what they are been asked to do and do that or piss off.

View Comment

Avatar

John ClarkPosted on7:13 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Just heard Richard Gordon quote from Celtic’s statement  “.. .. the  football authorities make the rules they also enforce the rules”
If only that statement could be said to apply to the SPFL and the SFA

View Comment

Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on7:21 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Like others I was a little dismayed to see politicians involved with SFSA, but I suppose it’s possible that their influence gained this audience at Holyrood for the supporters group, so maybe they will have value. Politicians getting involved with anything calls for suspicion, especially when each and every one of them have sat on their hands during this whole debacle that was a lot worse than some bad refereeing decisions or poor development of players.

If they are going to get involved ‘without fear or favour’ then they will be most welcome, but I won’t believe they are until I hear them call for an independent inquiry into the EBTs and how they were investigated by the SPL and the SFA. 

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on7:42 pm - Jul 21, 2017


I’m away to listen to the Ross co v Hibs game.  I wont be reporting on it.  I don’t care who wins.  But I want to know how potential players against my team are getting on.

Now no arguments tonight Ryan!  162022  (Don’t have a clue what they wee animals represent)

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on8:39 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Sorry, but that game was terrible.  Would rather have watched The Rangers v Alloa.  Ryan0403  (only kidding mate).

View Comment

Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on9:44 pm - Jul 21, 2017


Celtic have acted on the GB by closing the section for two matches.http://www.celticfc.net/news/12951
——————–
I am not a member of the GB or an ULTRA(to old i think) 
Anyway most ibrox fans i spoke to today at work their combined collective (before today’s announcement closing the section for two matches) was the GB should be banned.
I did ask why they thought the GB should be banned and all i got as a responce  was they just should be.
I did ask if they thought the ibrox ultras(don’t know what they are called) should also be banned, i got a NO.
The impression i got is the GB are so well known and dwarfs the ibrox counterparts they just want them banned because the GB do it better(when they do it well)
I did agree that some of the banners may be over the top a little and that the GB could have sought approval of there banners before each game from someone from within celtic (that banner is ok, you can’t display that banner type thing).
Anyway what i am most concerned about is the celtic statement today.
The decision, which has been taken amid serious safety concerns and after discussion with the police, follows events at the matches against Hearts in May and Linfield on Wednesday night.
The safe standing area of the stadium had been working very well until the final game of last season against Hearts.
—————
Why wait until today to say anything about the heart’s game? to me it looks like celtic playing to the gallery and the media frenzy and trying to club together events of last season to add weight for event’s at the Lingfield game.
Anyway just my thoughts for a friday evening and hope no one takes offence.
GB stick to what you are good at the colour,the noise the good banners etc most want you banned because when you do it well they can’t compete.
If this post is too self indulgent the mods can delete

View Comment

CrownStBhoy

CrownStBhoyPosted on10:07 pm - Jul 21, 2017


HIGHLANDERJULY 21, 2017 at 08:07
I have read, re-read and re-read your excellent contribution.
I don’t often comment on posts but on this occasion I must offer you my sincere congratulations.
It is so good in my opinion that, with your permission, I would like to take up the suggestion made by THE RANGERS NIL? WHO MISSED THE PENALTY?
I do hope you will accede.

View Comment

Avatar

Bogs DolloxPosted on10:57 pm - Jul 21, 2017


AllyjamboJuly 21, 
Like others I was a little dismayed to see politicians involved with SFSA, but I suppose it’s possible that their influence gained this audience at Holyrood for the supporters group, so maybe they will have value. Politicians getting involved with anything calls for suspicion, especially when each and every one of them have sat on their hands during this whole debacle that was a lot worse than some bad refereeing decisions or poor development of players.
If they are going to get involved ‘without fear or favour’ then they will be most welcome, but I won’t believe they are until I hear them call for an independent inquiry into the EBTs and how they were investigated by the SPL and the SFA. 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Agreed.

Not happy with the politicians involvement and non fan involvement.

Wasn’t McLeish involved in a previously commisioned report by the bureaucratic elite which reviewed the Scottish game and was then largely ignored? Maybe he needs to up his game (it won’t happen).

As for the GB I’m not Celtic but I’m not bothered by their “antics”.

Last time round they drew attention to the oppression of the Palestinians. This time round they made an Irish Independence point. I don’t have a problem with that.

When will the SFA & SPFL step up to the plate and challenge the racism of the Rangers fans?

View Comment

Avatar

goosygoosyPosted on12:25 am - Jul 22, 2017


BARCABHOY
JULY 21, 2017 at 13:31
 If Clubs can’t speak out when they have guaranteed revenue, record fan support , are debt free and succesful , when CAN they be trusted to put Integrity at the top of their list of priorities…….or even on it .
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
IMO
There are two major reasons why 41 Clubs have failed to speak out against blatant cheating over an 11 yr. period
1.    They privately support the on field results of cheating despite its unethical origins. In effect they are closet RFC plc fans at heart and always have been. Even if their view of TRFC is different now, they still see the cheating era in terms of fond memories they do not want destroyed.
2.    They are genuinely afraid of a violent reaction from the Loonies and their WATP fellow travellers who attach  themselves to RFC and  transferred their violent tendencies to TRFC.
Of the two I suspect it is Reason No 2 that predominates.
And with justification
 Most of the people currently running Scottish clubs grew up during the NI Troubles. They are well aware of the capacity for violence by republican and loyalist terrorists in NI. The nightly news fed a diet of terrorist murder gangs acting out the veiled threats of their political leaders. This constant drip, drip, drip of horrific events has left a deep impression on this side of the water.
The events of 2012 revealed a willingness by both Management and supporters of TRFC to stimulate NI tribalism and put lives in danger. A Raith Rovers Director was threatened with violence. A QC was given training in how to handle potential letter bombs. The TRFC Manager called for the public naming of a Tribunal in the clear knowledge that violence could ensue. The Celtic manager was assaulted in the street and sent letter bombs. A loyalist extremist was jailed for urging retribution on the radio to a journalist who had the temerity  to write the forward to the book Downfall.
 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The fans only got action in 2012 because the outrage was widespread and occurred at a critical time for ST purchases Club Boards were compelled to listen to their fans who were voting with their feet. They embarked on changes that eventually lead to the 5 Way Agreement
But
The aggressive response from TRFC Management and its Loonies occurred AFTER not before the decision was taken to reject Sevco Scotland joining the SPL
So Club Boards now know what sort of reaction they will get from the Loonies if they act with integrity in response to the SC decision
That’s why I think they will fold.
They are afraid of violence to themselves personally to their club property and being blamed for disorder on the streets
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Whats the solution?
IMO
There is no short term solution as  long as corruption rules in our governing bodies with the quiet corrupt support of all their member clubs
If the Clubs can`t be compelled by their fans or the SG to respond to the SC  decision  with integrity
Then
This cancer will continue to afflict our game for the foreseeable future
The only solution with a real chance of succeeding is for TRFC to go through 15 to 20 yrs of winning next to nothing.The WATP culture will continue But the club may gradually wither on the vine and eventually go bust. Meanwhile the next generation of Bears will be switching their allegiance to some English Club they can follow on TV

View Comment

StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on12:58 am - Jul 22, 2017


Mibbees the best / easiest solution is for TRFC to eventually go bust.

Except, this time the non-TRFC fans will demand that the latest Ibrox club iteration gets in line behind Spartans etc. for admission to the bottom league.

The governing bodies won’t change their ways.
The entitled Govan mob won’t change their ways.
And Scottish football WILL do better without this blight on our national game.

Forget title stripping: just kick them out – they’re not worth the effort.

View Comment

Avatar

AuldheidPosted on1:27 am - Jul 22, 2017


A couple of points about the current constitution of the SFSA Board from my 35 years experience of government and helping making the administration of it better.
First on Henry McLeish. He is a football man like all of us on here. He produced two reports on the future of Scottish football with recommendations we would support.
Some were adopted others important for good governance gather dust on a Hampden window shelf. They do so because the constitution of the SFA/SPFL and culture is not conducive to change. Those in power at Hampden are far too comfortable with matters as they are and are too well rewarded to want change.
Now if I had taken the time and effort to improve the game and thought my work  had been largely ignored, I’d be doing my best to see my work ultimately had some purpose. If you want to catch a poacher, hire a game keeper who was one.
Of course Mr McL has failings, he wouldn’t be human if he hadn’t, but no bloody three legged Martian is going to beam down and help sort things out (although Arbroath might want to sign him). Dorothy would never have reached Oz had she let judgement of those on the same road as her get in her way.
On politicians: Would anyone dispute that Scottish football has been bereft of  leadership for years? Politicians by nature are leaders, they are elected leaders of their constituency because that is what leaders want to do – bloody lead.
Now if there was a Herr Schicklgruber on the  SFSA Board Id be a tad nervous, but there isn’t, so lets acknowledge the skills and attitudes they bring to the party and don’t let personal judgements get in the way of the objective, providing via the SFSA, the cohesive voice and machinery for change we are all saying is lacking.
Politicians might have their faults but they are the guys who decide where money gets spent and money is going to have to be spent to build a governance system for football that is modern, professional and effective.
Some of that money has to come from the game of course, but seed money to get new ideas off the ground is required. One of the points coming from the politicians yesterday was the social importance of football in Scotland, its impact on communities and individuals. If that is not a concern of politics and politicians then what is?
For too long government has hidden behind or used as an excuse the fear of UEFA/FIFA sanctioning football in Scotland if government stuck its neb in.
FIFA?
UEFA?
FFS (that not a football authority btw)
Football organisations so corrupt they cannot find folk from within to heal their sick selves. It took the FBI to make any clean up happen precisely because of the internal corruption.
Apart from that because of the social divide in Scotland, reflected in football, getting involved was a vote loser for any politician. I reckon that is no longer the case and the right kind of assistance/intervention  would be a vote winner. 
If I were wanting elected the SFA CEO would find himself  chased from Hampden by a mad man wielding the thicker of the Mcleish reports in an unfriendly manner to encourage him to skedaddle and Id be carried thereafter to the polling station on the shoulders of a massed band of adoring acolytes.
Henry McLeish or James Dornan are not going to sit on The Referees Committee at Hampden, but if the outcome of the SFSA survey is that seed money is going to be required to effect change, then is it not wise to have folk on committees that can argue  the case when budgets are set? Funding can recruit and pay for modern professional business advice that simply is lacking at Hampden. Such business systems experts can identify flaws in the current structure and advise not only on change but how to manage it.
Football is big business but it has fallen behind in Scotland because the administration of the game has not kept pace with the changes that have taken place in the normal business world that have transformed the service delivered to customers.
The problems that the SFSA survey is likely to highlight are going to need as many shoulders to the wheel to resolve as can be mustered, so if the objective is to be met surely personal reservations can be put aside long enough to get the SFSA band wagon rolling? The drivers can always be changed after the objective is reached and as new destinations become apparent. 

View Comment

Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on4:17 am - Jul 22, 2017


 FFS ! …..Wearing badges is definitely not enough. Funny how some banners provoke such a fierce reaction while others?………Zilch. Nada. Zero ! 

 https://twitter.com/ScotMailSport/status/888528611879378944

View Comment

Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on5:06 am - Jul 22, 2017


Should have added this to the above……Far scarier than Frank Spencer wearing sunglasses

https://twitter.com/CraigDenholm/status/883084131730681858

View Comment

Avatar

HighlanderPosted on7:26 am - Jul 22, 2017


CROWNSTBHOY
JULY 21, 2017 at 22:07

HIGHLANDER JULY 21, 2017 at 08:07

with your permission, I would like to take up the suggestion made by THE RANGERS NIL? WHO MISSED THE PENALTY? I do hope you will accede.

Thank you CROWNSTBHOY, feel free.

View Comment

Avatar

wottpiPosted on9:01 am - Jul 22, 2017


Good move from Celtic.
Luckily club in a position of strength financially to take this ban on.
No problem in bringing previous games into account as it shows  cumulative misbehaviour.

View Comment

Avatar

Big PinkPosted on9:41 am - Jul 22, 2017


CO
We all have a view, but if the only defence of what happened on Wed is one of Whatabouttery, it’s kinda wasted on here.
I believe that poor behaviour of fans of all colours are routinely discussed here on the merits of the case alone.
Not sure that the Frank Spencer reference is indicative of a serious approach to the issue either, other than the allusion to farcical behaviour in both cases.

View Comment

Avatar

FinlochPosted on9:42 am - Jul 22, 2017


The SFSA launch of their fan survey on Thursday was a step forward.
Yes there were more undiscussed elephants in the room than space and yes it was on the polite side but it was a start of a deep and ongoing process of asking and listening to the fans.
The SFSA has set itself up as the voice of the fans rather than the enemy of the status quo and I think that is the best way forward.

The meeting was effectively a press conference at Holyrood with one item on the agenda to an invited audience of journalists.
The message was that is that nobody in power in Scottish Football takes any heed of the real stakeholder, the fan and the SFSA are taking stock of what the fans in Scotland think by linking with highly regarded German academics.

The lack of fan input (apart from money) into the Scottish game has been known for many years and all we can be sure of is that the SFA and the SFPL will not change from within.

I don’t think the launch was over politicised although there is no doubt to me that our cause is grass roots political because we have all been disenfranchised by “owners” of clubs and their administrators helping them keep the power they get from our sport and our revenue streams.

We had three reasonably well known politicians at the meeting.

Richard Leonard, football fan who sponsored this (semi) high profile event.
James Dornan, football fan who is MSP for Cathcart and has Hampden in his patch.
Henry Mcleish who is an ex pro for a diddy club, ex First minister and also a football fan who also wrote a comprehensive report on the future – a report that has been mainly ignored.

In my mind the meeting was politicised by two individuals.

But in a good way.

The first was Richard Leonard who quoted Bill Shankly’s view of socialism.
  “The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.” 

I’d never heard it but it struck a cord with me.

The second was a blog writer whose message was that Football has forgotten its proletariat roots.

(I hadn’t hear the word Proletariat since the Citizen Smith sit-com years ago but I understood exactly what he meant.)

My view after the meeting is that just shouting at Regan et al from our keyboards will not get the momentum that is needed for change.

We will not achieve our objectives through the back pages of our red tops (and none of them even showed up)

The SFSA is new, and it has to evolve.
It has to take over from the London funded and failing Supporters Direct Scotland.

That will need political help.

We need to bend it like Shankly 

View Comment

Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on9:55 am - Jul 22, 2017


AuldheidJuly 22, 2017 at 01:27

As ever, Auldheid, a very welcome insight into what’s happening in an organisation that will, hopefully, have an impact on the way our game is run. I can see how having these men of politics might be a great help in getting the message across, particularly in areas of public life that matter. The likes of Henry McLeish can even demand that the media pay attention, and not jut those football hacks 2222. Imagine, a force for good within Scottish football that the SMSM can’t ignore!

However, the events surrounding the Rangers EBT debacle, it’s liquidation, and the connivance by the game’s authorities since, form the biggest disgrace our game has ever known, and it still continues. Until, and unless, someone from the SFSA board addresses this publicly, my concerns will remain that, however well meaning those onboard may be, their effect will be minimal. I am not suggesting anyone within the SFSA will be there to do the SFA’s bidding, or is even overly sympathetic to Rangers and TRFC, just that in over 5 years not one of those people of influence has spoken out about this malignant sore in our game that pushes every other one of the game’s failings so far down the pile that there is no point in even tackling them while the corruption, and the corrupt, remain.

There are three things I will be watching out for in the coming weeks that I believe will indicate the effectiveness of the SFSA, with number 1) meaning they are something we should all be 100% behind, whether or not they achieve as much as we’d wish, and number 3) an indication that, however well meaning these people might be, they are going to be no more effective than a chocolate fireguard!

1) A definitive statement covering the great wrongs inflicted on our game as mentioned in the second paragraph above, with a call for an independent inquiry into those events.

2) The skirting around those events with a weak and insipid statement, possibly with a call for ‘Scottish football to move on’.

3) No mention of the matter, at all.

As those who are compromised, or are a part of the cover-up, like to use the passage of time to bring distance to the events we all abhor, and as these events require little, or no, research by anyone(awake to the events of the past 5 years) before addressing them, there can be little, or no, excuse for the SFSA to delay raising the matter before any other concern – unless, of course, their survey shows that Scottish football supporters are generally happy with the quality of the game’s governance. 

View Comment

Avatar

ZilchPosted on10:09 am - Jul 22, 2017


Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake. Napoleon Bonaparte

The banners and community singing on Weds at Celtic Park were a classic example of breaking that maxim.

I understand there was a build up of tension and a real sense of greivance following the previous visit to Belfast, but the GB banners and the widespread (not just GB) adoption of the ould songbook was stupid and totally counter productive.

I am not slow to call out sectarian singing at Ibrox. I am also not going to be slow to call out inappropriate political singing at Celtic Park.

Yes they are different in nature. No, neither of them is welcome.

I have no time for 90 minute republicans. If you want to do something to support the Irish republican cause then get involved. There are plenty of ways to make a positive contribution. Singing songs at Celtic Park is not one of them.

At this time of all times, rather than be dragged down to the level of the Linfield knuckledraggers, I would far rather see Celtic Park bedecked with banners calling for the removal of the corrupt officials in charge of our game.

I want to hear the Celtic support shouting for Doncaster and Co to be shown the door.

I want to see the GB doing the “Wanted” banners that the Aberdeen lads have produced.

Want to fight against the old order in a meaningful way? Let’s start with the corruption and bigotry that is still at the heart of the game you are paying to see today.

The GB has made a serious tactical error in allowing themselves to be blinded by their hatred for the Ulster loyalists. As football fans we ALL have to be a bit more cute and focus efforts where we can have maximum impact in bringing the guilty to heel and pushing for a better society here and elsewhere.

My 2p on the subject.

View Comment

Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on10:12 am - Jul 22, 2017


FinlochJuly 22, 2017 at 09:42

Jings, after a quiet period on SFM we’ve suddenly had a round of some cracking posts, and this is one of them.

I love it how some of our members get themselves along to these events and court cases to give us these first hand and insightful updates. How else would we know about the details when the SMSM give them a body swerve? I am assuming you were there, Finloch, from the strength of your post.

Thank you, too, for the Shankly quote, makes me kind of proud to be a football man (person).

View Comment

Avatar

John ClarkPosted on10:48 am - Jul 22, 2017


ZilchJuly 22, 2017 at 10:09
“……..and focus efforts where we can have maximum impact in bringing the guilty to heel and pushing for a better society here and elsewhere”
__________
Yes.
Unlike Stewart Milne with his urging us all to  ‘move on’, we KNOW that there can be no meaningful ‘moving on’ unless and until the  longest-sustained, most destructive bout of serial cheating in Scottish football has been fully acknowledged and penalised in sporting terms, and people like Milne ( has he something to fear?or something to gain?)  stop acting as apologists for the cheats of that former club and for the wicked administrators who first allowed (through  incompetence if not,perhaps,actually out of complicity) that cheating.
Milne  would serve his club and the rest of us better if he joined Celtic in calling out the whole dirty business and leading efforts to cleanse the stables at Hampden.
Better still, if he has such little regard for Sporting Integrity and Truth let him get to hell out of sport altogether.
We can do without fellow-travellers of arch -cheats.

View Comment

Avatar

upthehoopsPosted on11:18 am - Jul 22, 2017


Re Stuart Milne, and his ‘let’s move on’ statement.

If he was building a new estate of 300 homes at a cost to him of £150k each, to be sold at £200k each. A rival housebuilder ten miles away is also building 300 broadly similar homes at a cost of £130k each, to be sold at £180k each. There is a credit crunch and 100 of Milne’s homes lie empty while the rival builder sells all theirs because they are cheaper.  Five years later a court rules the rival builder was cheating on tax to lower their costs and outperform other builders, including Milne. Would he simply want to move on?

View Comment

Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on11:23 am - Jul 22, 2017


ZILCHJULY 22, 2017 at 10:09
I want to see the GB doing the “Wanted” banners that the Aberdeen lads have produced.
————-
I believe i read somewhere that stewards had the banners taken down.
————
Hope the same is not done to these banners.
@1stripthetitles 22h
Thank you, you wonderful Scottish supporters. We have secured a company to supply #stripthetitles banners for display at all games.
——–
I would hope that clubs have not giving instructions to stewards to remove any banners about Regan and Doncaster and the cheating years.

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on11:32 am - Jul 22, 2017


Stuart Milne eh?

That’s all the thanks I get for supporting Aberdeen during the week!  I feel betrayed.  He’s a traitor to our cause.  Hope the Dons fan turn on him.

View Comment

Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on11:35 am - Jul 22, 2017


BIG PINKJULY 22, 2017 at 09:41
Sorry if it came across that way BP. It was not my intention. I was merely trying to highlight that if banners are to be taken as having influence or power, then clubs (and governing bodies)should not be selective in what is noticed, and what is ignored 
   I should probably have thought a little deeper about the clumsy comparison I chose, as I back Celtic’s stance, but my initial point remains, that wearing badges (banners) is not enough to get recognition….It would appear it depends on the badge.
   To extend that further, I have yet to see a headline state, “Strip the titles for the good of our game”….We are playing uphill against the wind with a dodgy ref. 
    We need to hit back harder and up the momentum. Ammunition from reputed organisations such as TJN, a couple of journalists and the supreme court have had little direct impact, and the only group making any form of progress is the handful of Res 12 guys. 
   I am of the mind that if the governing bodies continue on their blinkered commercial route, then commerce is the best place to hit them. If we don’t act through choice, then disillusionment will do the same job, but there will be nobody left to pick up the pieces.  
   Season tickets are all but sold now, and that is a 10-0 starty to the commercial path walkers, but walk-outs, sit downs, and other forms of peaceful protest are still available. 
   The SFSA gives me some hope, but politicians will do little, until social dynamics dictate it won’t cost them a vote. Do we have that long?.
   The simple truth is that Scottish fitba does not want to do, what we want them to. Jeezo we are only asking them to act honestly.

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on11:43 am - Jul 22, 2017


Oops!  Just noticed on another site ‘Stuart’ should have been spelt ‘Stewart’.  I blame UTH, I went back to his post for a spell check 02

View Comment

Avatar

upthehoopsPosted on11:43 am - Jul 22, 2017


JOHN CLARKJULY 22, 2017 at 10:48   Milne  would serve his club and the rest of us better if he joined Celtic in calling out the whole dirty business and leading efforts to cleanse the stables at Hampden.Better still, if he has such little regard for Sporting Integrity and Truth let him get to hell out of sport altogether.We can do without fellow-travellers of arch -cheats.

====================

Last night I was in the company of a fellow Celtic fan, and a Kilmarnock fan. We had no knowledge at the time of Milne’s comments. Talking about football in general the subject of Aberdeen came up and we all agreed in our lifetimes we have viewed them as a really good club. A club it is probably a pleasure to play for and manage, and they always seem to have a good board. The people who supported, played for, and managed Aberdeen through the EBT years have been seriously let down by Milne. I do hope the Dons fans leave him in no doubt about how they feel. 

View Comment

Avatar

upthehoopsPosted on11:47 am - Jul 22, 2017


JIMBOJULY 22, 2017 at 11:43   
Oops!  Just noticed on another site ‘Stuart’ should have been spelt ‘Stewart’.  I blame UTH, I went back to his post for a spell check 
==================

Thanks Jimbo, I’ll accept the coaching in the manner it was intended 01

PS Thank heavens Mrs UTH doesn’t read SFM, as she would have added it to the huge list of things I get the blame for!

View Comment

Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on11:53 am - Jul 22, 2017


Interesting quote from Peter Lawwell yesterday.
this part…The safety authorities and the football authorities make the rules.They also enforce the Rules.
“If the rules are broken celtic will be punished again and again.There is no hiding place from these realities”
————-
Great to see Mr Lawwell is a stick on for Rules to be enforced by the football authorities.There will be no hiding place from these realities for Mr Lawwell

View Comment

Avatar

erniePosted on12:09 pm - Jul 22, 2017


My Email to Duncan fraser at AFC this morning.  Not sure if it ever does any good but I’m so pissed off with this.
“I had to open a link to the DM today on reading on several blogs what Mr Milne shared with them.  I have laboured, a bit, over whether to renew my ST over the last 5 years but have continued to support primarily because being a Dons fan is part of what I am (sad but true!) but also because I believed that the systematic and long term cheating by Rangers and the compliance of the SFA/SPFL (i.e. the clubs, including mine) was being exposed over time and would not be tolerated. As most supporters (i.e. paying customers) have, I bought my ST a few weeks ago so maybe Mr Milne got his timing right but this is really unacceptable.
1. If Mr Milne wants to change the ethos of the support to that of apologist for the cheats he should have the decency to do it via the club notice board rather than throwaways to the gutter press.
2. It is pointless going over the history of the DOS/EBT/Side Letter years in this email , it has recently been verified in court again, but the club should be pushing for transparency and meaningful consequences.  Otherwise there is no point in us competing never mind trying to do the right thing.
3. Mr Milne may be relying on the majority of the  support being uninterested in the issue.  That may well be the case but enough are interested and there will be an “exposure”.  Scandals are like that, we are currently on the wrong side.
4. Mr Milne probably does not understand the frustration and anger that is felt by our supporters.  The media, SFA/SPFL and, of course, TRFC themselves are basically  flicking the middle finger at sport, integrity and any sense of justice.  They are quite justified in doing this: they are getting away with it and they have our Chairman’s support.
5. On the same tack: if it had been us that had carried out the DOS/EBT/Side Letters scam or indeed the liquidation/continuity joke do you think the media, SFA/SPFL and chairmen would be backing us and suggesting we move on?  What do you think a Rangers chairman would be saying?  They would wipe us out.  
 
My question is. Why are we so willing to sweep this scandal under the carpet?  Is it because they are a big team?  How big do you have to be to be able to do this and are AFC big enough?
 
Regards,(Real Name)57 years a paying customer.”
 

View Comment

Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on12:23 pm - Jul 22, 2017


ERNIEJULY 22, 2017 at 12:09
   Dont know if this is any good to you Ernie.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-to-cancel-a-contract-without-being-penalised

View Comment

Avatar

PortbhoyPosted on12:33 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Maybe an alternative banner for the GB. 
Somethin’ like this, ….. 😉

https://i.imgflip.com/1swbgb.jpg

View Comment

tony

tonyPosted on12:36 pm - Jul 22, 2017


ERNIE
has milne something to hide and doesn’t want to rock a boat ? 5 way agreement perhaps,oh and i’m not saying this as fact,just a throwaway question

View Comment

Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on12:48 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Dons fans continue the good fight. Well done to them. I wish my own club’s supporters groups were doing similar.

http://www.donssupporterstogether.com/index.php/news/dst-news/113-statement-big-tax-case-ruling

I would never advocate any supporters withdrawing their financial support for their club, or taking disruptive (in a physical sense) action, but I do hope that supporters of all clubs (though it would appear only those at Aberdeen and Celtic are up for the cause) will start demonstrations, chants and display less than complimentary banners aimed at their own club’s directors who give support, or by their silence, facilitate that support, to the deniers of corruption, and so to the corrupt, themselves.

I doubt there can be many people who could sit in a directors box and be happy to receive the brickbats of their fellow supporters and do nothing, especially when, in their heart of hearts, they must know that what the supporters are demanding is that they, the directors, act in a just and honourable fashion.

Oh, I haven’t read the statement credited to Stuart Milne, I’m sure I’d find it too nauseating to bear, but might I ask if anyone can tell me, did he justify his desire to move on with the assertion that we should do so because Rangers didn’t cheat? I bet he didn’t, and that he didn’t, because he couldn’t!

View Comment

Avatar

erniePosted on1:09 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Tony, I agree. Milne, and others, have screwed up. They were complicit in the attempts to accommodate the oldco cheating and newco same club scam. I suspect, being generous here based on a little that I know, that they are struggling with the threat of exposure. Possibly other “threats” but that’s not a get out clause. My message to them is that this scandal WILL break and that they are on the wrong side: the establishment that has wronged will always say “move on”. The cover up always becomes the bigger scandal. I’m not sure who does the PR at Pittodrie but he/she should be sacked. 

View Comment

Avatar

John ClarkPosted on1:18 pm - Jul 22, 2017


ernieJuly 22, 2017 at 12:09
‘……. Otherwise there is no point in us competing never mind trying to do the right thing.’
___________-
Well done in writing to Milne, ernie.

View Comment

Avatar

sickceltPosted on1:26 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Firstly let me state that I have no issue in Celtic tackling the green brigade and the banners and flares issue. 
Most decent people agree they often go too far with their political statements, and as for pyrotechnics that’s clearly idiotic.
My point here is there is a lot of honest decent supporters that are now being denied seeing two big games because of where their ticket is allocated. There seems to be an opinion that everyone in the “North Curve” section as it is known is in the green brigade and hell mend the lot of them.
This is far from the case.
Surely in a stadium full of CCTV cameras the perpetrators can be identified and ejected or a stop put on their season tickets for the next game.
I feel like many other things, Celtic are handling this all wrong.
I wrote some time ago about my dismay at Celtic’s policy of not putting the home games against TRFC on children’s season tickets, therefore embracing the “return” to normality and all the baggage that goes with it.
I said then it was an PR own goal and yesterday’s decision is another.
In a climate when fans are turning their backs on the Scottish game due to the lack of good governance, Celtic seem to be alienating honest fans who have the misfortune of standing in a section beside a few morons who think they are above the law.

View Comment

Avatar

SmugasPosted on1:49 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Two things on the Stewart Milne thing this morning.  Firstly I simply don’t trust the press even to print what was said never mind the context.  He’s travelling back from a great Euro result on the back of what looks, fingers crossed, to be a cracking close season borne as it is from the May reality of losing our two creative wingers.  Why would he want to talk about Sevco?

secondly, there is a disappointing lack of PR awareness there, not for the first time where Mr Milne is concerned.  Pre Daily Mail article AFC have been stubbornly silent.  Pleasingly, post SC judgement, the DST have done their bit and put out a statement similar in language if not influence to Lawells.  The two thus stood together marooned in a sea of apathy.  We attract no more “thunderous blue rage” than we would attract through having the temerity to regularly beat them anyway.    The JJ emails further reinforced Duncan Frasers position as being “surprised” at the LNS outcome, and that was before the SC extra time winner.  AFCs informal position was clear.  A CFC/AFC consortium of sorts position was clear.  Two voices versus Forty and thus destined to fail but crucially with the two board’s fans having their full support’s backing and, well, support.

I suspect the guy has been press-jacked and not for the first time.  However the one thing the reaction should have shown him is that the game will never move on from this.  In the same way a plane is unlikely to move on from losing a wing or a black knight can cope with only a flesh wound.  Like them, an attempt to move on should be treated with scorn and pity.

View Comment

Avatar

SmugasPosted on2:06 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Sorry, meant to add but got lost mid rant.  My guess as the circumstances of the Milne interview, I think made whilst travelling back from Bosnia no doubt furnished with a deserved celebratory tipple or two.  In a half hour chat about the clubs progress, challenges ahead etc he’ll have made a throwaway remark along the lines of “moving away from all this crap onto more important stuff!”.

but that’s just my guess

View Comment

Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on2:18 pm - Jul 22, 2017


ernieJuly 22, 2017 at 12:09

Ernie, a fine response to what your club chairman has said.

I doubt what I read earlier today will make you feel any better, but I came across another good statement on Twitter, though I’m not sure if it’s originated from an Aberdeen supporters club or individual supporter, that has an addendum suggesting Stuart Milne’s main concern is the houses he has to sell in Scotland’s central belt! I don’t know how valid that might be, but I have always felt that the commercial pressures of club directors own businesses impact more heavily on our game than is healthy for it.

View Comment

Avatar

bigboab1916Posted on2:18 pm - Jul 22, 2017


If teams boycott certain grounds you create loss of other revnues aside from admission, time to boycott and put pressure on small businesses who rely on the season to entice them to voice their opinions.
This is is not going away cheating and corruption will destroy our game.

View Comment

Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on2:47 pm - Jul 22, 2017


I posted this a few days ago, I think it’s more relevant now.

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on3:06 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Interesting development from Linfield FC.  The club is working alongside PSNI with regards to prosecuting the fans in the corner who were throwing missiles.  If found guilty, the club will take them through the Civil Courts to get redress for the EUFA fine.

Well done that club!

Over to you Celtic, use your CCTV recordings and intelligence to identify the banner culprits, it is illegal, so involve the police and if found guilty take them to court for redress.  That way the innocents within the 900 crowd  section are not punished.

View Comment

Avatar

HaywirePosted on3:33 pm - Jul 22, 2017


I have signed the various petitions regarding the Rangers/SFA/SPL/SPFL cheating so far, and I shall shortly be filling in the SFSA Survey.  Due to a rather busy diary in the last week or two, I have yet to contact my club, Killie, over the Rank Bajins, but that will also follow.
However, I am having some difficulty remembering ALL the various calumnies inflicted on Scottish fitba’ by those permanent embarassments and occasional disgraces at Ibrox and Hampden over twenty years or so.
I am aware that some of our bloggers have assembled the opposite of a brownie points list (blue points?) with regard to the miscreants of our game, but am having trouble finding one which is reasonably up to date.
Could some kind person point me at a relevant and recent list, please?
Regards to all!

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on4:03 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Green Brigade statement.  No regrets, no remorse.  No intention to change or take account of the majority opinion in Celtic’s support. 

“We can assure all that we will be back in Celtic Park soon enough and that we will never allow our style nor our politics to ever be diluted.”

The only part I agreed with was “Other pertinent issues to be addressed are the club’s response to the biggest cheating scandal to shame Scottish sport;……. and the silence over the racial and sectarian hatred directed at our player of the year and manager. ” (The Rangers game)

Wednesday night was a good opportunity for the GB to do a tifo calling out Regan and Doncaster instead of harking back to ‘The Troubles’.  NI is trying to move on, why can’t they? Scottish football needs fan groups to address the issues of the moment. I remember the Four Horsemen banner. Much better.

View Comment

Avatar

bigboab1916Posted on6:18 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Reading the take on the move on story from Milne i think the Aberdeen fans should be asking him if this is a personal decision and what brings him to this thought process.
I would urge Aberdeen fans to ask him if he would like to reimburse them for allowing them to be enticed along to a game which has been rigged against them.
He must be made to explain his thinking if he thinks cheating had occured and if it was punished or why he is prepared just to ignore it and move on and allow cheating to be ignored, i would personally be asking for him to resign if he has allowed fans to pony up front for a sport in which he is only concerned about his income and his business in Glasgow.
As an Aberdonian i would be affronted if this is true and i would demand my season ticket money back. Does he cheat his customers when he punts them houses? Does he show integrity to his customers? If you allow cheating your business life must be investigated how can you be trusted!!

View Comment

Avatar

John ClarkPosted on7:08 pm - Jul 22, 2017


bigboab1916July 22, 2017 at 18:18
‘…If you allow cheating your business life must be investigated how can you be trusted!!’
_________
Yep, Mr Milne might do well to reflect on the quote about integrity not being something you show others, but is about how you behave behind their back!
What are we to make of Milne’s fatuous request that we all ‘move on, to leave the football  record books perpetuating  one  lie and bolstering another  not unconnected lie?
Just what is his game?

View Comment

Avatar

bigboab1916Posted on7:17 pm - Jul 22, 2017


http://www.stewartmilnehomes.com/contact-us-central-scotland-glasgow.aspx
I am going to ask the company what assurances they give customers when their owner turns his back on cheating and tax avoidance which had an impact on his other business customers.

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on8:42 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Ryan,

For the sake of balance and to cheer you up on a Saturday evening, just thought I’d report on what the bears over on JA606 are saying about your team’s performance today against Marsaille (sp).  Well, it’s very positive.  A big improvement.  Raving about Bruno and Candyass. Dorrans started of poor but grew into the game.  In fact positive for most of the squad but apparently Miller & Wallace had a poor game.

By the sounds of it your team got off to a bad start this season but there is hope.  (Still think Celtic will win it but don’t expect a repeat of last season.  That was a once in a generation thing).

Have a nice night04

View Comment

Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on8:49 pm - Jul 22, 2017


JIMBOJULY 22, 2017 at 20:42       Rate This 
Ryan,
For the sake of balance and to cheer you up on a Saturday evening,
—————-
You just knocked the shine off my sunday morning with that summary, i won’t be buying a paper tomorrow now. Bruno  worth £6mill headline in SMSM i can’t handle18

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on9:03 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Cluster One,  1212

Congrats also to Hearts today, likewise Killie and Motherwell 3 teams I know are represented on here.  Apologies if I’ve missed anyone out.

I’m only talking about football results because it’s quiet on a Saturday night and I’m hopeless about the raison d’etre subjects for TSFM.  But I enjoy reading all the stuff from the knowledgeable posters, and I enjoy the company.

View Comment

Avatar

HopeforthefuturePosted on9:06 pm - Jul 22, 2017


Here’s my take for what it’s worth.
The whole episode is so huge that the authorities are terrified of the consequences should a successful campaign bring about justice.  They could not possibly control the narrative or any outcomes. Where would it end? What would it ultimately mean? No one could begin to predict where it would go! Every game deemed to end 0 – 3 has an unending series of knock-on effects with endless ifs and buts. You get the idea, Falkirk should have won the Scottish Cup, qualified for Europe – what might have been Etc.
 
Then you have the social/moral dilemma!  Unpaid taxes, failure to deliver for shareholders up and down the country. Illegality on every imaginable level, immorality no one could ever excuse or make amends for. I don’t believe that this can be dealt with appropriately for so many reasons – legal, financial, social, historical, severity of consequences and yes! Fear.
 
Personally, I do not wish to see individuals hounded to the point of bankruptcy, or beyond for these matters but can these be ignored whilst attempting to achieve justice which HAS to be seen to happen?  I do want the whole sordid matter brought to an end by recognising what went on, the history books to record the facts and peace to break out for the greater good of Scottish Football into the future where my sons and their sons can follow the game with pride and confidence that the same things are never able to happen again.
 
I do want to see the offenders named and shamed, I would like to see the trophies won under a shadow, marked in the history books as just that. If though, that is considered unlikely, impossible even, then I want the sham of continuation called out for what it is and the SPFL to declare that for all to see. Then, we can “move on”.

View Comment

Avatar

jimboPosted on9:11 pm - Jul 22, 2017


How could I forget Abroath!  Got team of the day on Off the Ball.  Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath!

View Comment

Comments are closed.