Les Says It is Time to Ask The Audience?

Saying the last couple of weeks has been colourful for Scottish Football would be an understatement.

We are now in a position where we have a Taskforce co-chaired by the heads of two clubs to look at what needs to be done in the Covid 19 landscape right now and into whatever future unfolds.

Representatives of the clubs first convened last Monday and Graham Tatters, Elgin City chairman told BBC Saturday Sportsound that the 2nd division has already agreed unanimously to back 3 leagues of 14 as their preferred option.

On the same show Iain McMenemy, Chairman of Stenhousemuir effectively told us among other things that nothing in Scottish Football is ever easy, and mentioned that he believed the fans should be involved in any process.

Around the same time a very welcome conversation was underway between Les Gray, Taskforce co-chair and Paul Goodwin of the SFSA with Les asking for and welcoming fan input.

Dave Allen Called Our Future Years Ago

His oft quoted “I wouldn’t be starting from here joke” is a remarkable insight into where we find ourselves.
Our game is on the cusp of internecine war following the confusing combination of events we’ve all see playing out.

The hastily convened Taskforce has co-chairs who have also been quoted in the MSM as having different agendas, one for an immediate solution and one for a long-term plan.
Nothing wrong with that, in fact brilliant, we need both because they are interrelated.
Collectively we have to ask not just how do we minimise the economic and social impacts of the pandemic but also how do we start to shape our game for a better future?

Both these needs are right nows and both are the remit of the current Taskforce.

Now is the Time to Circle Our Wagons

This unique, open-ended, revenue-winter hit our clubs unexpectedly and overnight.
It is already brutal and will get worse with no current exit plan and no future certainties.
We know Dave Cormack’s Aberdeen is currently burning £1M per month.
No club has Covid immunity and a world of salary reductions, deferrals furloughed staff, little in the coffers and no exit strategy or road map out is a stark reality.
It’s hard to imagine that footballers have become liabilities rather than assets in a blink of an eye.
But it’s not hard to foresee that the financial stress on our clubs will see casualties.
Never before have we needed inter and intra-club teamwork for the common good.
But not in Scottish Football where an internecine spat is about to flare big time.

Civil War Breaking Out?

The record will show the recent SPFL Good Friday vote got an 80% plus backing vote from the clubs but in reality became a farce as Dundee eventually changed their “casting” vote.
This was paralleled by the “whistleblower” outburst by Rangers interim chairman Douglas Park demanding immediate suspension of Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie and an independent inquiry that sort of happened but not to the satisfaction of some.
One week later it rages on in the media with words today like “damning evidence, serious concerns, lack of fair play, coercing and bullying” being the vocabulary fed to the MSM to share with their audiences.

It seems some clubs have become unhappy with how our game is run and want to do something about it, so welcome to our world guys, – us fans have been saying that for a long time.
Our game needs big change but it won’t happen overnight and a pandemic crisis is maybe not the best timing for internecine strife.

Closing Down 2019 – 2020

This season is already ended for all Scottish clubs outside the Premiership.
UEFA didn’t do much to help and could have been more proactive in stopping inter club squabbling but plus ca change.
Most football people I have spoken to (with their self-interest hats off) were not totally happy with the implications of closing the season early and pro rata-ing points to decide champions but pragmatically accept it is the best answer or the least worst solution.
Asked about teams being relegated while having a bona-fide chance of fighting back there is less support and indeed genuine heartfelt pushback.

Some more enlightened leagues like the Lowland League who took the decision to avoid further damage on some of their members at this time through a no relegation policy and a wait and see what’s best are seen as wiser.

What Needs To Be Done Today?

We all know that out of the Budge/Gray Taskforce there will be a few options put on the table.
There is always the status quo of 4 leagues 12, 10, 10, 10.
A 14, 14, 14, setup was discussed and voted on by the current second division clubs last Friday.
Our own similar suggestion published on your SFM was 14, 14 and a bottom league of 16 to keep the integrity of the pyramid.

Two weeks on, a more pragmatic option and one to be considered by all might be to agree no relegation for now and to wait until more is known over the next crucial weeks.
We have time on our hands and no need to rush.
Why not take our lead from the sages at the Lowland League?

As a fan what do you think?

Should we plan for an interim period?
Should it be status quo?
Do we apply parameters (like no relegation) but accept that any other plan has to be kept flexible till more is known and agreed?

Your insights and views are welcome by Ms. Budge, Mr. Gray and their team either on this forum where I’ll read and collate them or if you prefer sent to me at
andrew@scottishfsa.org

What Needs To Be Done for Our Tomorrows?

We live in the real world and that means money is and always will be the prime driver and starting point.
Money is entwined with self-interest, status, power, politics and sometimes greed.

A given is every club will always want more and that is the easiest of several elephants in any room when looking at change to impact positively on the future of our game as a whole.

But maybe, just maybe now is different.
Post Covid many clubs will be on their knees financially and it will be a different world.

Les Gray’s Million Pounds Question For all Fans

No surprise it’s not an easy one
If you were charged with helping to create a sustainable and healthy future for Scottish Football is what would you do?

How would you advise Les, Ann and their Taskforce team about the right moves to make?

Once again insights welcome on SFM or to
andrew@scottishfsa.org

As a starter for 10 some stuff that has come up in previous SFSA fan surveys about our game (in alphabetical order) includes –
Better Communication, Bigger Leagues, Community Involvement, Council Telly live games, Gate Sharing, Grass Roots Investment, Fairness, Family Friendly, Fewer clubs, Integrity, Kids Free, Leadership, Less leagues, No Bigotry, Openness, Outside expertise, Same rules for all, Schools Football, Simplicity, Standing Sections, Summer Football, TV Kick-off times, Regional Lower Leagues, Reserve League, Strict Liability, Transparency, Wholesome Sponsors etc.

The list is not exhaustive. Please feel free to add any others.
Some will be contradictory, some nice to haves but the crucial thing to do is to find the smartest moves and build on them.

We’re responding to Les and Ann in good faith

Never before have we the fans been asked in such an open way.

Collectively we have a short-term end of season issue and a need to set up our game for what comes next which might include an interim period.

The background to any responses you offer is uncertainty exacerbated by growing internecine chaos and increasing vitriol.

I’ll end with some wise and hopeful words by a Taskforce Co- chair

Without openness, transparency and pragmatism we will simply keep making the same mistakes.

Ann Budge

708 thoughts on “Les Says It is Time to Ask The Audience?


  1. nawlite 4th May 2020 at 21:14

    Let's not believe what we want to believe re that tweet from…. 'Yogi the Tim'. Seriously?!

    I searched for Business Live and found what I think is the current accurate listing that his tweet seems to refer to.   https://www.business-live.co.uk/enterprise/mike-ashley-sports-direct-newcastle-16723204

    I can see no mention of Castore being connected to MA or Sports Direct. Happy to be proved wrong.

    ===================================

    Correct.

    I've just searched for the same article myself.  The Castore link is one of the "most read" stories on business-live to the right hand side of the Ashley article. There is no connection between the companies. 


  2. easyJambo 4th May 2020 at 21:19
    0 0 Rate This

    nawlite 4th May 2020 at 21:14

    Let’s not believe what we want to believe re that tweet from…. ‘Yogi the Tim’. Seriously?!

    I searched for Business Live and found what I think is the current accurate listing that his tweet seems to refer to. https://www.business-live.co.uk/enterprise/mike-ashley-sports-direct-newcastle-16723204

    I can see no mention of Castore being connected to MA or Sports Direct. Happy to be proved wrong.

    ===================================

    Correct.

    I’ve just searched for the same article myself. The Castore link is one of the “most read” stories on business-live to the right hand side of the Ashley article. There is no connection between the companies.

    Was searching myself including at Companies House. Can’t find a link but did establish that they are not billionaires. If only that kind of search ability was available 8 or so years ago…

    Let’s not jump to conclusions or accept info from a single source. The kind of thing journalists obviously avoid before going public.

    Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.


  3. Was searching myself including at Companies House. Can't find a link between SDI/MA/Castore but did establish that they are not billionaires.

    If only that kind of search ability was available 8 or so years ago…

    Let's not jump to conclusions or accept info from a single source. The kind of thing journalists obviously avoid before going public.

    Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.


  4. Aye same here , no like him tweeting that without a wee check, noted now 


  5. Easy Jambo 10.15

    The frustration for both of us is that nothing has changed or looks likely to change in the foreseeable future in terms of the governance of the game and the key question you pose gets to the heart of the matter. Who decides on the desired outcome? 

    I’m sure that much of the furore over the current machinations will be forgotten about once football does resume in a meaningful way, although the recriminations will remain for a year or two longer. Your own fight about events nine years ago has all been forgotten by all but the most fervent followers of the campaign (I include myself among such followers). As each year passes the relevance diminishes, but I still support what you are doing.

    May the 4th be with you.

    ======================

    The future of Scottish football is now completely unknown but if supporters were to ask questions like this one I’ve copied from Sentinel Celts  

    “Here’s a question for ye . As a season ticket holder, the narrative at the minute across the country for most, indeed probably all clubs is this.

    Give us your season book money or we may go bust. Why would they go bust? Answer is – wages. Celtic for example pay , let’s guess at an average of £20k per week. Of course some will be more.

    Here’s my problem.

    Millions of workers across the country are getting 80% of salary up to a max of £2500 per month. We have to get on with it.

    Why is it necessary that players get paid their exorbitant salaries? Can’t they live off their savings the same as us?

    I’m at a loss as to why the season ticket money is so critical?

    Genuine question btw .”

    and my reply

    “If all supporters asked that question on players wages and dug deep , they would find that they themselves are responsible for creating demand in a market where trapping a ball was more important than teaching, or nursing, or healing.

    It’s not that I object to a worker maximising his return for his labour, its putting his employer out of business if too greedy is my objection.

    It serves neither in the long run, and here we are in a long run.”

    This is in line with my thinking that the game is fecked for a number of clubs in the top tier and the only thing that will keep them going is high reserves, owners with deep pockets or supporters, particularly where the first two don’t apply.

    Celtic have an advantage over all others and one thing that might stop their supporters ponying up unquestionably is to realise or become aware of how much Celtic are prepared to betray their support to the extent of lying to them. On doing so they would be entitled to ask for a greater say in policy in matters affecting supporters, in return for their financial support. 

    I think, thanks to joint efforts to get the Res12 narrative out, there are few supporters having read https://www.res12.uk who think the UEFA license was granted under honest circumstances in 2011. They might also be wondering why Celtic have not taken the matter to heart as the club who should be compensated, but not enough to make them want to act.

    However if it became known that Celtic not only had enough evidence to call the LNS Commission out on their own and failed to act on it *, but through prominent bloggers argued for delay until the Supreme Court ruled and so allowed the false narrative of no sporting advantage to become the accepted narrative, which undermined any argument for title stripping, then perhaps, just perhaps they might react as a group of shareholders, who have seen evidence of The Board’s duplicity are prepared to do, and that is table a motion of censure of the Board, PL in particular but also the departed Eric Riley, their man on the SPL Board in 2013 and ask why it is necessary to be lied to by Celtic in order to keep a dishonest club as Celtic’s main rivals. 

    Loyalty is  two edged sword and clubs asking supporters to keep them alive without setting out what they are keeping alive is as deceitful as it comes and in return for that loyalty translated into financial support,  supporters should be demanding transparency and accountability of their clubs through meaningful supporter involvement, before providing a penny of support.

    • What was presented to the SPFL Board in 2014 including Eric Riley of Celtic by SFM contributors can be read from the index at 

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6uWzxhblAt9dnVHSl9OU3RoWm8    

    The reason for Riley’s absence at the SPFL Board decision making point in Feb 2014 and subsequent lack of pursuit by him and Celtic from 2014 can be discovered in the 5 Way Agreement and Side letter to Sevco from Doncaster, where the clause requiring CAS referral of any dispute has also allowed the pursuit of Res12, which Celtic insisted be done domestically, to be buried by the SFA.   

    Riley was on the list of SPL Board members as well as Peter Lawwell in July 2012 that had the 5 Way Agreement attached and was one of the SP(F)L Directors contacted in 2014.

    What the LNS Commissioning has in common with the recent SPFL payout Resolution is the setting of terms to achieve a desired result. 

     


  6. Call me an auld cynic but how much of a backhander/ebt would Castore take to give impression Rangers had some source of future income to satisfy the want to be satisfied that everything in the future garden is rosy?


  7. HirsutePursuit 4th May 2020 at 17:10

    "….it's likely that Castore would need to sell around £30m of its merchandise."

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    I have only the haziest idea of how guys get money from other people and use that money by giving it to other folks who either already have a manufacturing business and workers that actually make and sell things or are enabled to set one up.

    There is no [relevant] company named 'Carstore' listed in the Companies House records.

    You need to go into the 'Carstore uk' webpage to find that the 'Carstore' website is run by 'J.Carter Sporting Club Ltd ' company number 09670915, on this link

    https://castore.com/uk/terms-conditions/

    If you then find J.Carter Sorting Club Ltd on the CH pages, you will see that there were at 23/09/2019 

    29 shareholders holding between them the 99,464 shares in issue ( nominal value of ordinary shares £0.001). 

    The two founders, Thomas and Philip Beahon (not 'Beaton') had 25,000 each, and no other shareholder had more than 3675 (Michael Needley).

    Andy Murray is not among the 29, unless he's using another name, but he 'partners' them in so far as he seems to 'recommend' their tennis clothes.

    If you then look at the Accounts for year ended 31/01/2019, Note 2, you see that the total number of employees was TWO.

    Who the feck is making the gear? And under what arrangement that puts money into J.Carter Sporting Club Ltd?

    Can it really be one of Mike Ashley's manufacturing places? That would be absolutely priceless!

    How does all that kind of thing work? 

    No wonder I'm poor, if honest!heart

    Of course, I am not necessarily being critical of any small company and its shareholders or even of the capitalist system or even of a small company that contracts with TRFC, or even of Andy Murray.

    I'm just amazed that at the age I am [ statistically speaking, within 4 or 5 years of my end] I should know so little of the big, bad world of money-making with other people's money and not actually doing anything like making football togs and such like!broken heart


  8. @Auldheid 22.28

    Castore has just got a great deal of (free) publicity at least in Scotland. The Castore story has deflected away from Dossiergate and allowed creditors of the Ibrox club* to believe it's business as usual and an income stream will be arriving . It has also spun the story that Ashley is gone (again) which has rallied their beleaguered fan base .Only time will tell if there is any truth to this deal but for the moment it's painting a rosy picture that satisfies both sides . As for how would they cope with demand if true , I'm sure they could outsource the contract to a sweat shop in the 3rd World , charge big money and pocket the difference.  


  9. JC

    Had a quick look at how Castore operate earlier.

    As far as I can tell, its business model is to design the sports clothing and use 'partners' (including one in Italy) for manufacturing. It has a smallish range of retail partners (Harrods, Selfridge's amongst others) to sell its merchandise as 'high end' sportswear.

    Its existing networks seem at odds with the requirements for mass produced replica shirts.

    One would expect that the manufacturing, logistics and retail outlets required for such an enterprise to be undertaken by a different set of partners.

    In other news, I hear that Sports Direct are looking to change direction and hope to open around 100 new stores.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/14/meet-the-man-behind-sports-directs-upmarket-rebrand

     


  10. HirsutePursuit 4th May 2020 at 23:32

    ‘.. its business model is to design the sports clothing and use ‘partners’ (including one in Italy) for manufacturing.’

    “””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    Thank you, HP. 

    So the shareholders in the company are buying into two guys who have sportswear design ideas that they then sell to actual manufacturing companies to turn into manufactured goods. 

    Got it!

    So perhaps an Ashley owned manufacturing company has indeed got the contract, being able to produce on the desired scale.
    Albeit ,perhaps, of a cheaper, downmarket quality far short of what Andy Murray would consider wearing.

     

     


  11. John Clark
    5th May 2020 at 00:05
     2 0 Rate This

    HirsutePursuit 4th May 2020 at 23:32

    ‘.. its business model is to design the sports clothing and use ‘partners’ (including one in Italy) for manufacturing.’

    “””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    Thank you, HP. 

    So the shareholders in the company are buying into two guys who have sportswear design ideas that they then sell to actual manufacturing companies to turn into manufactured goods. 

    Got it!

    So perhaps an Ashley owned manufacturing company has indeed got the contract, being able to produce on the desired scale.
    Albeit ,perhaps, of a cheaper, downmarket quality far short of what Andy Murray would consider wearing.

    ………..

    Not too long ago, I was looking to purchase a new TV.

    My eye was caught by the similarity in many of the models – but fairly substantial differences in prices. To my untrained eye, I found it impossible to guage what model was 'better' than another.

    I asked the sales person about features, picture quality, reliability, etc. The answers were less than persuasive.

    In the end, I determined the thing that made the single biggest difference to the price was the brand.

    Unsure about making an immediate choice, I made a note of two or three models and did a little research.

    I discovered that the company owning the brand I had been looking at, doesn't actually make TVs. The specific model I was thinking of buying was actually better known as a model in the range of a household name (may have been Hitachi, but not absolutely sure).

    I believe exactly the same components and software is installed in TVs on the same factory line for many different brands. All, though essentially the same, are directed towards slightly different market segments and sold at different prices.

    The thing is, a brand often isn't real. Even if it has some financial value, it often has no real substance behind it.

    So if Castore turns out to be no more than a shell, simply a crest and a name with no history earned through its own endeavours, well…

    … it's probably a match well made.

     

     


  12. Auldheid 4th May 2020 at 22:28

    ==================

    The cynic in me wonders if Rangers are so desperate for a deal that they are quite prepared to go to court again with Ashley and indulge in the usual can kicking. 

    The cynic in me also thinks if Rangers new kit deal was with Adidas, and Celtic's was with Castore, the media might just be taking a different approach to their reporting. 


  13. upthehoops 5th May 2020 at 06:56

    UTH, you often refer to ‘not being paranoid enough’ in your perception of how Celtic are treated by the media, football authorities, referees etc.

    I can only assume those folk must be spectacularly inept, considering Celtic have all but clinched nine in a row, with ten likely to follow, and are odds on to clinch an unprecedented quadruple treble, while a healthy multi-millions of pounds sit in the bank account.

    Imagine how much better they’d be doing if only everyone wasn’t out to get them. 


  14. Timtim 4th May 2020 at 23:16
    I’m sure they could outsource the contract to a sweat shop in the 3rd World , charge big money and pocket the difference.
    ……………..
    They did that a few years ago and had complaints from fans that the shirts were fading and falling apart after a wash.
    ……………
    Once watched a program about a shoe factory in Taiwan, designer trainers and cheap trainers were both made in the same factory by the same people using the same machines and material. Only the label made the price difference.


  15. Rangers will delay the release of their evidence into alleged wrongdoing by the SPFL hierarchy. The Ibrox club was due to circulate a dossier to the other 41 clubs today in support of its call for an independent probe. The clubs are scheduled to vote on the issue at an extraordinary general meeting next Tuesday.
    …………………
    They are a busted Flush.


  16. Cluster One 5th May 2020 at 09:06

    Rangers will delay the release of their evidence into alleged wrongdoing by the SPFL hierarchy…

    ============

    Yes, it would seem that TRFC hasn’t got it’s own way, (yet?), and the SPFL is not rolling over. cheeky

    So, what does the Blue Room do now?

    They can’t issue that big A4, manila envelope, with “SECRET DOSSIER” scrawled all over the front of it in red, white and blue crayon: it’s empty.

    Mibbees their new PR expert needs to release another squirrel – and quick!

    …what a load of bollox and shame on the Ibrox club for causing even more, unnecessary grief during this difficult time for ALL clubs. 

    They just don’t give a sh!t about ‘Everyone or Anyone’ who is outside the Ibrox bubble! 

    And this club simply doesn’t give a sh!t about the wellbeing of the Scottish game, (just like the old club).


  17.  

    The dossier release delayed. 

    "Rangers are keeping their powder dry".Daily Record.

    Define powder?

     


  18. I have been trying to find out some information on gate receipts but came up blank.  As far as I recall gate receipts used to be shared 50/50 after the home side had deducted expenses.  I don't know when this changed.

    The reason why I am interested is because of the posts between Bordersdon and Ernie yesterday.  

    1985 is the last time the league was won by a club other than the Glasgow duo.  By Aberdeen.

    Bordersdon mentioned that there was less disparity in resources back then.  I wondered if gate receipts was part of that?


  19. misterlightbulbjoke

    It certainly won’t be gunpowder (for explosive dossier – which, imho, they don’t have). Might refer to the useless powder in a damp squib (as they now seem faced with presenting a fatuous argument – do they even have that?).

    I would now bet on the latter (the end of the line).

    Whatever else it is, it’s certainly irresponsible (in the current climate when everyone should be sticking together for the benefit of the game), deflective (from their own significant financial woes as they desperately seek to punt season tickets), undignified and sheer bloodyminded (but wait – we know you all hate us, but we’re the mighty Bluenoses, so we don’t care.).

     


  20. Before retirement I worked with a number of people who were victims of scammers.

    One gentleman was convinced that he was in line for millions and millions of pounds from the Australian Lottery. It actually reached the point it passed a billion pounds!

    The money was always going to arrive tomorrow and he was happy to part with another postal order to make sure he wasn’t going to miss out. He paid out thousands and thousands of pounds.

    I pointed out the “cheque” he had received for £1 million as an advance of his winnings didn’t have his correct name and a quick check showed the bank didn’t exist! He understood what I was saying when I described it being like the Bank of Mickey Mouse and got very angry with me! 

    He had a phone call, before his family had his phone disconnected, to say he had won a bonus prize of an expensive car which would be delivered. He got a phone call to say they were struggling to find his house but they would be with him in a day or two for sure! They never appeared but according to him that was ok because his house (visible on Google Streetview) was difficult to find and his millions were still going to come. 

    His family fell all out with him, and sadly with each other, as the scammers found more and more ways to get money out of him. 

    Is it a surprise that today’s Rangers Rumours made me recall what was really a sad story? 

    The final part of the story is that even after being admitted to a care home he carried on blaming his family for not supporting him to get the money that he was entitled to. It finally stopped last year when he passed away.

    You will have to trust me that my story is 100% true!


  21. Reading the post earlier about Aberdeen at their peak in the 80s brought  back loads of ( some painful ) memories . I well remember as an 18 year old travelling home and away to follow Celtic and receiving  many a pumpings by an Excellent Aberdeen team . I never realised at the time that these were indeed heady days . I remember Rooting for Aberdeen in the ECWC  final against Aberdeen and the whole house erupting with John Hewits winning Goal . They also went on to win the European Super Cup . Even as a young boy I always felt Aberdeen never got the praise they deserved , they also wiped the floor with an excellent  Ipswich Town side who were managed by  none other than Bobby Robson. . Think it was a  5-1 aggregate score and if my memory is correct they even missed a late penalty ???? Also Dundee Utd winning the league , beating Barcelona in the Nou Camp ,( what a night that was , can still remember Lorraine Kelly on Breakfast time News celebrating the next morning !!)  drawing 2-2 with Man U at old Trafford , pumping a very good Borrusia 5 nil ? at Tannadice    and not doing themselves justice over a 2 legged Final against Gothengerg. What great days they were . What changed ??  The money side of things  definetely changed things , no doubt about that but I really do feel that what totally fecked it up was David Murray and all that happened under his Tenure. I wont go into it as we are all sick of hearing about it . What it did do is eventually make Celtic realise its potential at home and through a helluva lot of patient hard work by the Celtic board and crucial commitment by Celtic fans Celtic are now light years ahead of every other club financially domestically . Honestly I am not gloating , this is not a good thing for our game. This caused many , crucially the SFA to then wrongly think that the only solution  to a strong Celtic was to have a strong ( stronger ) "Rangers" at all costs . This was spectacularly wrong , not once have they thought " what would be good for the game not just Celtic and Rangers " . I honestly do not know how we get out of this , yes a fairer distributions of cash but to do that realistically at the moment means Celtic having to give a percentage of money they have honestly earned from any limited success they may or may not have.in Europe. Celtic and some Celtic fans would feel they would be getting unfairly penalised for rolling their sleeves up years ago and working proffesionally behind the scenes to achieve a well oiled football operation. I would like to see a fair percentage of European money being distributed to the top league but it would need to come with conditions and this is where I think it probably would 'nt work. Simple things like , only grass parks in top division , FFP is a must but we need a brush taken to the SFA . We need a forward thinking body who genuinely want football to flourish in this Country …….can you see the problems already ? And thats only scratching the surface . Just heard that the so called "Dossier" is being delayed for another 24 – 48 hours……….and again there is another major stumbling point . A club who continually sh*t all over every club in the country , a loose cannon since they were formed in 2012 And still no one stands up to them   I sound like a Celtic Board man but Im really not , yes they on the whole have done really well but their silence over res 12 and their whole silence on things like the 5WA stinks to high heaven . I like most on here just wanna have a competitive league free of all the moon howling from Govan and their poodles in the media


  22. jimbo 5th May 2020 at 10:26

    I have been trying to find out some information on gate receipts but came up blank.  As far as I recall gate receipts used to be shared 50/50 after the home side had deducted expenses.  I don’t know when this changed.

    =====================================

    My own recollection was the early 1980s.

    A check on Wiki confirms the date as February 1981, with the source being Bob Crampsey’s 1990 book “The First 100 years. The Official Centenary History of the Scottish Football League”.

    I wouldn’t doubt the writings of a former Brain of Britain.


  23. Highlander 5th May 2020 at 08:36

    ===============

    Most of my complaints are about the media, and are valid in my view. 

    In terms of the Authorities. Jim Farry, head of the SFA, deliberately cheated Celtic. Resolution 12 came into being because the SFA denied Celtic a place in the Champions League by wrongly awarding a licence to Rangers.  A Referee lied to the Celtic Manager in 2010, and the SFA covered it up, with the help of a head of Refereeing who had to leave when it was exposed he sent a bigoted e-mail. The media supported the authorities every time. 

    I definitely wasn't paranoid enough. 


  24. Jimbo/Easyjambo

    ——————————————

    Bob Crampsey in his book "The first hundred years" explains that this was approved by clubs in February 1981. So well remembered EJ!

    The book is well worth a read and crammed with facts. Loads of information that I had completely forgotten.


  25. I've not paid as much attention to Dossiergate as most on here have, so I'm not up to speed on all the arguments surrounding it, but one thing that struck me from the outset was the great likelihood that, in the end, there would be nothing more to the 'dossier' than a couple of sheets of paper in a brown envelope (OK, it might be white). There was absolutely no doubt in my mind that at one stage (or more than one) there would be a delay in producing the killer evidence. In fact I think there has always been little doubt that there was sod all evidence of anything more than some disquiet over the way the whole matter has been conducted. 

    TRFC are not doing this because the SPFL actions have disadvantaged them in any way – they are not even disadvantaged by Celtic being deemed champions, for TRFC do not 'own' the league trophy and have no claim to it. They are only doing whatever it is they are attempting to do to spoil things for their hated rivals while sucking up to the most sentiently disadvantaged sections of their support.

    CO,

    "Corrupt official 5th May 2020 at 09:55

    I was under the impression the explosive dossier was already prepared. Mainly because on 11th April Sevco claimed it had been seen by other member clubs, Mebbe it keeps blowing up…Did anybody notice if uncle Tom had singed eyebrows and a sooty face?….It's so hard to tell on the radio. https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-football-club-statement/"

    Seeing, and reading, a dossier – or any document – are two entirely different things. I suspect the TRFC board members and their PR flute blower know this, but the effect of saying others have seen it gives the impression they've read it and agree with TRFC's conclusions.

    I suspect what's most likely to have happened is that a member of TRFC's board has held up a 'dossier' and said something along the lines of, 'we have evidence here of illegal actions by the SPFL and think it should be presented before an independent inquiry, do you agree?'

    As in all cases where a 'trusted' member of society says such a thing the correct answer is, 'yes, I think it (evidence of wrongdoing) should be properly investigated'.

     


  26. Anyone else heard or seen that the explosive dossier has been downgraded to “unfair play”. It seems it will be Thursday before it is released on another note where has mister reasonablechap disappeared to these last couple of days? I so looked forward to his daily spouting.


  27. Allyjambo 5th May 2020 at 12:07

        I was paraphrasing Ally and the exact statement says :-

    “Other member clubs, who have seen the evidence we hold, share our concerns.

    “We call for the suspension of the SPFL’s Chief Executive, Neil Doncaster and its legal adviser, Rod McKenzie while an independent investigation is conducted.”

         ————————————–

       I doubt they can now claim to have been holding up Fat Sally's list of gambling footballers in error. This "evidence", is clearly relating to the suspension calls and the demands of an independent investigation. 

        Obviously the claim means the evidence was in their possession prior to the 3pm release on the 11th.  That was three and a half weeks ago.

          Plenty of time to save up some money to buy more ink for the printer………Unless they have decided to add a flourish of grandeur and the monks are having difficulty acquiring decent quality vellum….As we all know, goose bum-feathers are not what they used to be.. Low quality quills made from reed were sometimes used, and these were known as the bum's-rush, resulting in a blotted copy-book.

        I think that's where we are headed.. broken heart 

         

        

     


  28. shug 5th May 2020 at 12:28

    '..where has mister reasonable chap disappeared to these last couple of days? '

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    I eschew the reasonable chap's description of me as a 'barrack-room lawyer' (no offence to any squaddies out there, but as I wore naval uniform the appropriate insult would be 'sea-lawyer') but he may be studying hard to find a convincing rebuttal of my interpretation of sections 296/297 of the Companies Act 2006! broken heartbroken heart  , which is that a vote on a resolution cast before the end of the 28day balloting period is not 'signified' legally until the end of the balloting period, and may be changed right up to the last minute of the 28 day period.

     

     


  29. Shug@12.28

    In the words of the song soon to be sung live from the Albert Hall on Friday “we’ll meet (RC) again some sunny day” 

    If not him, then some other bot from the same point of origin.

     


  30. Allyjambo 5th May 2020 at 12:07

    While, like many others,  I initially thought the shenanigans had a major element of wanting to scupper Celtic’s 9IAR, I now think the Ibrox club are actually more desperate for getting any SPFL cash available in their hands – and pronto.

    Yes a ‘null & void’ stops 9IAR or playing out the season gives them an long shot at stopping 9IAR but as we know there finances aren’t great then they do appear to need money coming in at regular intervals from whatever source they can get it from.

    Some form of advance payment or loan is something they probably need and given what we know re King stepping down and Park’s own businesses being hit hard by the current coronavirus situation. No matter how staunch, I think even the Blue Room will be more worried about immediate survival than Celtic’s continuing trophy haul.

    However all they have done is go about things in a cack-handed manner and it looks like this latest piece of nonsense is going to blow up in their faces.

    On the other hand Hearts, who also will want/need cash at some point,  are more concerned about the longer terms issues of having relegation forced upon them. Like Partick and Stanraer they will most likely be able to cut their cloth accordingly if a spell in the division down is the ultimate result.

    While a kick in the teeth, I believe the general support and the FOH at Tynecastle would see the club through regardless of what is finally decided re the 2019/2020 season and the way forward.

    As I have said many a time the T’Rangers support have been loyal and put cash into the club since 2012 but that is never going to be enough given the way the club is run.

    Yes the message to the fans is try and stop 9IAR but the deeper issue is needing cash – and fast.

     

    And just while I am on I note Doncaster’s interview on Saturday was all about the money.

    I might be wrong but I can’t recall much being discussed about what thoughts had been given to how to deal with teams disadvantaged by the SPFL boards resolution.

    The recognition of member clubs losing out and talk of restructuring all appeared to be after thoughts.

    Doncaster was not really challenged on the thinking (or lack thereof) behind that,  as IIRC

     

     

     


  31. If I was a betting man I would say the Rangers have nothing of any substance and backed themselves into a corner .  Now trying to hatch some sorta face saving exit plan 


  32. Of course, we could all be wrong.

    Possibly, TRFC does indeed have a bulging ‘SECRET DOSSIER!’, which is overflowing with absolute proof that the SPL is well dodgy?

    …and we would then all have to thank The Rangers for their sterling input!

    Well, the Internet Bampots have been trying to tell anyone who will listen – since 2011/12 and before – that the SPL/SPFL is an allegedly, corrupt and a categorically, incompetent organisation.

    (Ditto the SFA.)

    But, nobody seems to have taken much interest of the supporters’ concerns: including the other 41 clubs and especially the SMSM.

    It does seem a bit surreal though, that the Ibrox club/company is attempting to portray itself as leading a crusade to clean up Scottish football governance!

    Crazy. smiley


  33. StevieBC 5th May 2020 at 14:44

    If T'Rangers do have something nuclear on the footballing authorities we shouldn't really be shooting the messenger.

    However, I think it is more likely a load of nonsense that won't stand up in court.

    More chance that it is Park, like Charles Green's comments about his **** friend, just planning his exit strategy via a ban sine die for bringing the game into disrepute blush


  34. On a lighter note

    EJ "may the 4th go with you" Groan!

    Reminds me of a prog rock band back in the seventies who would end their concerts with a few strikes on the percussion from the drummer which was described on their live album as a " 4 gong conclusion".

    Also, I remember one of the sun's internal headlines from a few years back. 

    The story concerned a violinist with the London philharmonic who complained to the police that somebody was breaking into his house at night and moving things around.

    It turned out that he was doing the housework whilst sleepwalking.

    The headline:

    "Orchestral man hoovers in the dark"

    HS


  35. wottpi 5th May 2020 at 14:24

    '.I now think the Ibrox club are actually more desperate for getting any SPFL cash available in their hands..'

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    TRFC, wottpi, came into existence because people wanted to make money.

    They were aided and abetted in their desire to coin it in by the Football Authorities who manufactured The Big Lie.

    They then were emboldened to imply in their RIFC 'Prospectus' that they were the Glasgow Rangers of 1872, the most successful football club in the world, instead of telling the simple, undeniable truths that that Rangers was Liquidated and that TRFC was a brand new creation which had to be newly admitted into professional football. 

    I had no real difficulty in accepting the admission of a new club as a new club, bottom of the lowest league.(I don't remember any other prospective applicant clubs kicking up a fuss?).

    But the lie that somehow RFC of 1872 was not liquidated and remains in existence with a mere change of name and ownership was spawned in the rotten hearts and just cannot be tolerated. 

    It's the most ridiculous lie that was ever concocted in Sport. 

    And the Football Authorities and the SMSM were not and are not honest brokers, propagating the Lie as they have done and continue to do. It is impossible to believe that they genuinely do not see Truth. 

    I have the same name as my dad. I also have his war medals and Army paybook. My dad is dead.

    I am alive. I have his medals not because I earned them, and his Army pay-book, not because I served in the Scots Guards at Cassino. 

    I am not my dad.

    TRFC did not earn the sporting honours and entitlements of RFC of 1872 and had no membership of Scottish Football before 2012.

     My dad is buried in Dalbeth. RFC of 1872 is in Liquidation. 

    I can say I cherish my dad's memory. The supporters of RFC of 1872 can say they cherish the memory of RFC. 

    I can say that I hope to have some of the traits and qualities my dad had. Supporters of TRFC can hope that TRFC has some of the traits and qualities that Rangers of 1872 had.

    I cannot say that I am my dad, without being deemed a fool.

    Normal, intelligent, sane and honest people cannot sensibly and honestly say that TRFC is Rangers of 1872.

    No, greed and lies are at the very heart of the deception that has been foisted on to Scottish Football. 

    The sheer bloody cheek and arrogance of it all!

    Bad cess to every lying sod who has tried to con us.

    And if covid-19 brings financial destruction upon them, let it do so. 


  36. I think that what’s happening in the SEVCO attack on the SPFL is that the football authority is strategically winning – especially the PR battle – as they have surprised the troops from Govan by coming out of their trenches in the past week through counter attacking, and outmanoeuvering them.

    If SEVCO were confident about their position, they would have, and surely intended (?) to, ‘double down’ on their resolution by now. Instead, I feel we are starting to witness the crumbling of their hopes of toppling Doncaster & co.

    It’s beginning to look a lot like (no not Christmas) Bonaparte’s infamous retreat from Moscow.

    Before I finish, please take a few minutes to digest this infinite wisdom from Steven Thomson (another legend?):-

    “…if Celtic are given the League, Rangers fans won’t accept that across the board. Universally, it won’t be accepted”. Whit????

    I have used bold to emphasise the idiocy of his pronouncement.

    I agree that the SPFL should be held to account (including historically e.g. 2000 -2012) – but not now and certainly not in this ridiculous and despicable manner.


  37. The latest Joint Respose Group statement

    https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/coronavirus-joint-response-group-update-5-may/?rid=13929

    Neil Doncaster, SPFL Chief Executive: “We gave the Minister a frank summary of the existential crisis our game is facing. Gate receipts make up a far higher proportion of our income than in England, which benefits from huge TV deals, so until we get back to playing in front of crowds, our game will remain in grave peril.

    “We have already seen the UK Government pledging £16m support to Rugby League in England to prevent it from being devastated by COVID-19. The longer we are unable to play matches in Scotland, the more essential will be significant financial support for our hard-pressed national sport.”

    In other words we want more government money.


  38. easyJambo 5th May 2020 at 17:09

    Neil Doncaster, SPFL Chief Executive:

    “… so until we get back to playing in front of crowds, our game will remain in grave peril…"

    ======

    You know what?

    I think that is the first time I have ever heard the SPFL CEO mention his paying customers!

    However, he's a bit dismissive to refer to us as "crowds" – and especially when he expects / assumes that we will save the business he manages…

    If the SPFL is ever to become a more customer focused organisation, now could be an ideal time to start ?

    smiley


  39. bect67 5th May 2020 at 16:58

          Who really cares what Rangers fans will or won't accept Bec?. They can't even accept their club died, but nobody else has trouble with it….Then there is the added fact they are just plain wrong !

           I think you are correct about the tactical exchanges and PR position, and wouldn't be surprised if some stern letters have been issued on the QT. I was listening to a link of Alex EBT Rae on Radio Clyde trying to raise the issue of loans/advances again, and short of telling him to STFU he was shut down in no uncertain terms by Hugh Keevins.

          They made it clear the station was not going to go there. It was done and a busted flush.

         Today the dossier was delayed.


  40. The SPFL must hold firm and make no decisions re ending the Premiership until at least May 12. Rangers are trying to provoke a rush to judgement so that they can make out to their media placemen that they haven't been listened to whilst using every trick in the scammers book to maximise income. 


  41. Corrupt official 5th May 2020 at 09:55
    ………………
    Rangers will not be bullied into silence. We believe it is in the interests of all Scottish clubs and supporters that the evidence, which is alarming, be addressed as quickly as possible.
    ……………
    Rangers big reveal of dossier of evidence against SPFL pushed back.

    Can’t be that alarming and to be adressed as quickley as possible if they can push it back.
    …………………………
    If ever there was a time for complete openness and transparency, it is now.
    ……..
    But lets hold off another couple of days.
    ……………………….
    “The farcical conduct of this affair seems to me to bring the corporate governance and business operations of the SPFL into sharp focus.

    The pot calling the kettle there.
    …………………………………
    “All we ask for is equality and respect. In the past few days, we have become alarmed at a seeming lack of even-handedness and fair play from the SPFL. This is surely unacceptable and, if substantiated, must be remedied.

    “Other member clubs, who have seen the evidence we hold, share our concerns.

    lack of even-handedness and fair play? But some clubs have seen this evidence and others now have to wait.
    ………………………..
    Who writes this stuff for the ibrox club? they are all over the place, no wonder their fans have not got a clue what goes on at ibrox.


  42. easyJambo 5th May 2020 at 17:09

    '…In other words we want more government money…'

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    If the Scottish Government gives any significant funding to 'Scottish Football' on account of the effects of the shutdown due to covid-19, there would surely be a case for top-slicing to compensate to some degree any club actually relegated when they might have had a fighting chance of saving themselves if the remaining matches (if the season is curtailed) were played?

     


  43. John Clark 5th May 2020 at 19:33

    If the Scottish Government gives any significant funding to ‘Scottish Football’ on account of the effects of the shutdown due to covid-19, there would surely be a case for top-slicing to compensate to some degree any club actually relegated when they might have had a fighting chance of saving themselves if the remaining matches (if the season is curtailed) were played?

    ======================================

    I wouldn’t be giving them any more than is being given to other businesses of comparable size.  Most clubs will already be using the furlough scheme so are already in receipt of taxpayers cash.  There are businesses across the country who are having to lay off staff, while the biggest clubs continue to pay large sums as well as deferring a proportion of wages to their top players. In most cases the intention is to keep their most valuable “assets” sweet. 

    I’m afraid that when the bottom falls out any market, as it is currently doing, then football clubs need to do the same as all other businesses do in the similar circumstances, cut their costs savagely. 

    There is an option for clubs to stop paying wages while games are suspended, by using clauses in their contracts. For some reason they would prefer to get handouts.

    Scottish football needs to be mothballed for the next six months or so, then pick up the pieces from there. 


  44. eJ, quite agree.

    Why would the SPFL think it is deserving of any preferential treatment from the government?

    It is just a leisure pursuit.

    The SPFL might be in for a shock / reality check when the restrictions are eventually lifted.

    ALL discretionary spend across the country will be inhibited for some time to come, IMO.

    Cinemas, theatres, concerts, etc – and Scottish football – might not be top of peoples' priorities and especially if they are trying to clear debt accumulated during the lockdown – and when the job market is probably going to be very unstable in the near term.


  45. adam812 5th May 2020 at 19:02

     

    The SPFL must hold firm and make no decisions re ending the Premiership until at least May 12. Rangers are trying to provoke a rush to judgement so that they can make out to their media placemen that they haven't been listened to whilst using every trick in the scammers book to maximise income. 

    =================================================

    Just to be accurate, the resolution is in the name of Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer. 

    I would also point out that the resolution is in relation to an independent inquiry and that it will be the SPFL members who vote on it, not the SPFL board. 

    If Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer cannot convince enough of the members to support their resolution then that means that the other members are not interested enough in having one. For whatever their reason.

    Whether the SPFL board decide to finalise the last remaining division of the SPFL is really a separate issue in my view.

    I hope the resolution is passed and the inquiry takes place. Well provided it has the correct scope / remit and is conducted by the correct people. That is by no means a certainty. 


  46. Homunculus 5th May 2020 at 21:10

    '…I hope the resolution is passed and the inquiry takes place..

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    So do I, subject to it being truly independent and the terms of reference are to the point

    Either RIFC/TRFC will be shown to have come damn near to being guilty of slander in making unfounded accusations and are thereby shown to have made an ar.e of themselves, or officers/Board members of the SPFL will be shown to have acted improperly in the execution of their duties.

    But I suppose with the track record each party has had in the truth stakes over the last decade, I expect there would be a fudge to save face all round: difficult, unprecedented situation, everyone meaning well, time of the essence, no chicanery or wrong-doing, just unintentional carelessness with the balloting process and announcing of status of the vote before the balloting period concluded; lessons to be learned, apologies and shake hands all round……

     


  47. While I understand the desire to help protect the senior game, with some Government help if need be,  we really need to start looking beyond the immediate crisis.

    There is currently talk of perhaps not getting youth football played again until 2021.

    How much long term damage is football going suffer?

    Like the teachers strike of old, 11 a side football and sports like rugby are going to take a hit.

    Sports like golf, tennis and some athletic events will be easier to run and participate in.

    Kids may turn to other sports or away from sports all together and football may suffer in the long term.

    I appreciate the immediate need to help players and staff but the repercussions of this situation have the potential to be far reaching and wide ranging if we are not prepared and alert.


  48. Just for accuracy the late Bob Crampsey  was indeed a schoolteacher but his subject was History. He spent many a year teaching it at Holyrood in Glasgow's South Side and was later Headmaster at St Ambrose Coatbridge.


  49. easyJambo 5th May 2020 at 20:42 Edit

     

    16

     

    0

     

    Rate This

     

     

    John Clark 5th May 2020 at 19:33

    If the Scottish Government gives any significant funding to ‘Scottish Football’ on account of the effects of the shutdown due to covid-19, there would surely be a case for top-slicing to compensate to some degree any club actually relegated when they might have had a fighting chance of saving themselves if the remaining matches (if the season is curtailed) were played?

    ======================================

    I wouldn’t be giving them any more than is being given to other businesses of comparable size.  Most clubs will already be using the furlough scheme so are already in receipt of taxpayers cash.  There are businesses across the country who are having to lay off staff, while the biggest clubs continue to pay large sums as well as deferring a proportion of wages to their top players. In most cases the intention is to keep their most valuable “assets” sweet. 

    I’m afraid that when the bottom falls out any market, as it is currently doing, then football clubs need to do the same as all other businesses do in the similar circumstances, cut their costs savagely. 

    There is an option for clubs to stop paying wages while games are suspended, by using clauses in their contracts. For some reason they would prefer to get handouts.

    Scottish football needs to be mothballed for the next six months or so, then pick up the pieces from there. 

    ==============

    Mothballed and Govt support. We must stop thinking like this. 🙂

     

    @ClydeSSB

    You mentioned Govt providing £16m (?) to English rugby. Is that being spread over all clubs to maintain existing wage levels or has minimum wage level to cover been set to provide more to meet fixed costs? Is that not an issue Scot Gov should want addressed if approached?

    Replying to

    @Auldheid

    @ClydeSSB

    I think the term "Mothballing" might become more frequently heard in coming weeks. Some clubs, if not all, might need Govt (i.e. taxpayer) assistance but subsiding high wages cannot be a feature of any funding.

    That was to Clyde SSB earlier tonight who will eventually catch up with reality. Players will be the ones under pressure in a buyers market. Perhaps an emergency wage ceiling might be adopted with increments leading up to it based on percentage of existing pay?  

    I'd be interested on folks views on how players wages during mothballing might be assessed.

    That is players already with a contract.

    Players out of contract not wanted would not be covered.

    Players out of contract but wanted would be limited by mothballing affordability but as you say cannot want to be treated better than their average supporter in the same loss of wage position. 


  50. paddy malarkey 5th May 2020 at 19:48 Edit

    An informative read from the Guardian .

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/the-agony-and-the-ecstasy/2020/may/05/celebrating-great-inventors-changed-football-forever

    =============

    I wish John Alexander Brodie's goal net invention had found its way to South Pollok football pitches behind the old National Savings Bank at Cowglen circa 1966.

    South Pollock was at the time one of the few grass parks in Glasgow, the inappropriately named Glasgow Green pitches having only migrated from black ash clinker to red blaes a few year before.

    Red blaes was for some reason seen as an improvement, possibly because the wound resulting from a side tackle looked better in red than black. For the record I never made a slide tackle in my life on black or red, my brains were in my feet, my cowardice flowed all the way from my heart to my head. 

    Anyhoo back at netless South Pollok I ran on to a through pass  and rounded the keeper with a swerve Graham Leggat would have been proud of (if you don't know who he was you are too young for SFM) but had to go wide of the keeper to form the narrowest of angles . The goal from my line of sight was the width of the ball plus maybe 2cm clearance either side.

    However such was the accuracy of my finishing shot it cleared both posts, equidistant from either as it sailed into the space where a net should have been.

    I turned to celebrate my achievement to see the referee pointing in the wrong direction, not to the centre circle but the 6 yard box for a goal kick.

    The full time whistle blew soon after to halt my protestations, which the ref took in good humour, he just did not believe me.

    Looking back, although I ranted on all the way back to the dressing room I don't blame him, I was a bit amazed myself that I had scored with such precision, sclaffs that went in by accident being my forte….. 

     


  51. Auldheid

    Your question of players wages got me thinking.  Nothing will be straightforward while this pandemic is with us.

    The biggest issue will, of course, be revenue. How can clubs earn enough to be able to operate?

    I hope I am being overly pessimistic; but I fear some clubs may well go under over the next few weeks or months.

    Those that do survive may well find that all professional football is forced to be played behind closed doors next season.

    If so, it's possible that some clubs may decide to try and keep going by cutting costs. Perhaps those in the lower divisions could dispense with professional players and coaches and play as defacto amateurs for a season? Maybe they could look at drafting in volunteers to help maintain the football park and keep their stadia neat and tidy?

    However, what if a regular testing programme for players and coaching staff is obligatory? Who pays for that?

    Who would pay for the match officials?

    How would they pay traveling costs?

    Training and match gear?

    I wonder if some clubs may simply decide that they simply won't be in a position to put any sort of team together until fans are allowed back.

    Could some of the smaller clubs think it would be safer to temporarily go dormant than risk going out of business permanently?

    I genuinely think the SPFL should be asking its members, how many of you would like to take a year out?

    TV revenues can probably keep the show on the road for the top tier clubs, but I'm coming round to the idea that there may not be any games played in the lower divisions at all.

    For the Premiership, there has been  talk of some sort of PPV deal (for one year) that would give season ticket holders live tv access to their club's games. PPV would work best (or may only work) for the clubs with the greatest number of supporters.

    I wonder if the current restructuring efforts may, in the end, come down to finding somewhere for those teams still standing.

    I have concerns that there may be fewer than we have been assuming.

    It may be that only the top tier goes ahead in 2020/21. The question is then, how many teams could be in it?

    Could we, for example, have an 18 team Premiership for one season?


  52. Is it not the May holiday this weekend and sevco are releasing this so called dossier on Thursday well what happened to the claim that clubs will have loads of time to read over and digest the contents.I can only guess that it is a few lines on a scrap of paper if the timing is anything to go on.


  53. 'John Clark 5th May 2020 at 19:33

    If the Scottish Government gives any significant funding to 'Scottish Football' on account of the effects of the shutdown due to covid-19…'

    #################################

    Doesn't UEFA have strict rules regarding State Aid to associations & clubs? Have those rules been waived, or are they likely to be temporarily rescinded?


  54. "Rangers will not be bullied into silence. We believe it is in the interests of all Scottish clubs and supporters that the evidence, which is alarming, be addressed as quickly as possible."

    As quickly as possible?   It is now 26 days since TRFC published that statement.  Why the hurry?


  55. State Aid?

    Top level football clubs getting more state aid than they already are, in line with any other business, is repugnant to me.  There are more deserving causes.

    Why not give hand outs to Elton John and the Rolling Stones etc to compensate for not being able to perform live on tour?


  56. Jingso.Jimsie 6th May 2020 at 09:53

    '..Doesn't UEFA have strict rules regarding State Aid to associations & clubs?'

    """"""""""""""""""""""""

    Good point,Jingo.jimsie. 

    It might be argued though that if every country whose economy has been devastated by the pandemic included financial help to the football  industry as part of the recovery of the country's economy then it would not be 'state aid' in terms of the purpose of the UEFA rules?

    Is football in the UK a significant enough industry in terms of its contribution to GDP and employment in most countries in Europe? Quite possibly, through the whole chain of direct and indirect employment and services.

    But UEFA would have to try to ensure that those countries who might for political, propaganda reasons try to ensure sporting victory by heavily subsidising particular clubs in European competitions didn't get away with it. 

    Any more than a national governance body should get away with issuing UEFA competition licences to an unentitled club in order to  ease that club's financial troubles!

     

     


  57.  

     

     

     

    HirsutePursuit 6th May 2020 at 02:18

    "….Could some of the smaller clubs think it would be safer to temporarily go dormant than risk going out of business permanently?"

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    Article 16 of the SFA Arties of Association would have to be got round?

    "16.1 Except with the prior written consent of the Board, subject to the terms of Article 4.4 and further on such terms as specified by the Board, no full member shall resign, retire or cease for whatever reason to be a member of the Scottish FA unless it shall have given a minimum of 2 full seasons’ prior written notice of its intention to do so and such member does not owe any money to the Scottish FA or to any other member, or player or recognised football body on the expiry of such notice. The prior written notice required from the member, as aforesaid, shall be irrevocable. In the event that subsequent to providing such written notice the member intimates a desire not to resign, retire or cease for whatever reason to be a member of the Scottish FA, the written notice shall nonetheless remain extant and if the member wishes to continue in membership of the Scottish FA, it shall be required to apply for membership of the Scottish FA in accordance with Article 6.

     

     

     


  58. Corrupt official 6th May 2020 at 10:28

    https://sentinelcelts.com/2020/05/06/bail-out-fk-off/

    ==========

    This includes a perfectly valid suggestion: let the leagues / clubs ask Sky, BT and others for a bailout: not from us, the taxpayers.

    It’s basic economics. Those of us who want football pay the (inflated) ticket prices, TV subscriptions, etc. Those who don’t want to pay the price, or don’t like football, or just hate all sports choose not to buy.

    So, how can a government disburse taxpayers’ money to assist a privately run leisure industry, and which only a percentage of the population actively support?

    And I wouldn’t trust the SPFL or the SFA with another penny of public money.  They deserve hee haw support, IMO.


  59. My prediction for Dossiergate.  

    There will be no inquiry. Instead there will be a carefully worded announcement from the SPFL, and possibly one from TRFC, that leaves both sides in the clear. It will all have been a misunderstanding that, after both sides got together, was cleared up amicably. The SPFL will thank TRFC for bringing the matter to their attention and no further action will be required.

    The announcement will be couched in language that will go some way to mollifying the bears* while at the same time making it clear the SPFL have conducted the matter completely within the rules.

    There will be no explanation made public of what it was actually all about.

    Any blame will be shared between Hearts and Stranraer. 

    *How the rest of us view it will be of no concern to any of the parties involved.

     

     

     

     

     


  60. Tom English and Ewan Murray still bleating about loans today.

    No wonder self-interest plays such a part. Murray's concern is evidently driven by Hearts supporting self interest. Yet when interviewed by the Celtic Underground website last year he basically shrugged his shoulders when asked about Res 12, LNS etc. He couldn't care a jot. 

    Where English's interest and focus is coming from is not so clear, but he too has ignored much worse issues to shame our game since 2011.

    No wonder there is self interest among clubs and fans when the media are so selective in what they get angry about. 


  61. Agreed Allyjambo – plus the fact that Robertson has to go.

    .. then the SEVCO/SMSM focus will inevitably thereafter switch to undermining Celtic’s second 9IAR achievement – which they will surely be awarded. Asteriskgate will replace the ‘null and void’ movement.

    In fact, this has already started, with a couple of whinging statements from Steven (where did I leave my violin?) Gerrard in the DR and ET about how unfair it all is.

    But then, I’m forgetting about all this ‘no surrender’ malarkey – in which there is apparently no scope for reality, common sense, humility, self-respect, decency sporting integrity etc etc.

    I feel also that, one way or another, SG could be ‘on his bike’ soon.

    As an aside, while I’m on, Credit to Peter Martin (PLZ Soccer) who has uttered the ‘forbidden’ L word twice in tha past week on his show!


  62. Absolutely, Aj.

    A truce will be declared.

    Even if TRFC did have something tangible, why would anyone want to initiate an independent investigation at this time?

    Presumably it would have to be conducted by a reputable, (i.e. very expensive), legal firm?

    Just what Scottish football needs right now: additional expenditure, and external to the game.

    The end result could/should be no investigation and no spend.

    But the damage has already been done.

    TRFC has actively orchestrated several weeks of acrimonious mud slinging via the SMSM, with personal aspersions cast at the Chairman and CEO of the SPFL.

    And the reputation / image of Scottish, senior football has sunk even lower… 


  63. AJ, Stevie,  I suspect you will be correct in the outcomes.  But,

    "TRFC has actively orchestrated several weeks of acrimonious mud slinging via the SMSM, with personal aspersions cast at the Chairman and CEO of the SPFL.

    And the reputation / image of Scottish, senior football has sunk even lower." (SBC)

    If ever there was a case for charges of bringing the game into disrepute then that is it.   Whatever the maximum penalty for this rule break is, they deserve it.  And an apology too.


  64. ‘StevieBC 6th May 2020 at 12:54

    TRFC has actively orchestrated several weeks of acrimonious mud slinging via the SMSM, with personal aspersions cast at the Chairman and CEO of the SPFL…’

    #######################################

    Whatever the ‘dossier’ turns out to contain, I find it difficult to accept that, five minutes after TRFC’s statement alleging ‘corruption, coercion & bullying’, the SPFL weren’t onto the SFA’s Compliance Officer to report an official of a member club (S. Robertson of TRFC) for his actions in naming three individuals (including the SPFL’s lawyer!) as involved in (possibly criminal) wrongdoing. 

    In not doing so, the SPFL has already been found guilty in the court of public opinion (‘there must be something to it, it’s all over the media!’); hence Doncaster & MacLellan having to make public statements (verbally or written) regarding the matter. 


  65. It goes without saying Doncaster, Regan and several others have been guilty of much worse ‘crimes’ against football governance (indisputable ones) than this latest issue.  But even if TRFC have anything of substance against the individuals there is a proper dignified way to go about it.  They have made a show trial of it which has dominated the media for more than 3 weeks now.  A trial without evidence and a presumption of guilt!   


  66. StevieBC 6th May 2020 at 11:33

    '.And I wouldn’t trust the SPFL or the SFA with another penny of public money.'

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""

    And 'SportScotland' showed itself to be a bit careless in looking after the taxpayer's money given to RFC of '72. They appear to have made the assumption that TRFC was the same club as that which got a pile of money to assist with the Auchinairn training centre.

    It took them quite a while to realise that the contract signed by Rangers of 1872 football club would not have been legally enforceable against the quite new football club founded in  2012, which had become the owner of the land and property, and could have told SportScotland to stuff its contract!

    They had to get TRFC to accept in 2014  liability for what SDM had signed up for years before when he was given the money.


  67. jimbo 6th May 2020 at 13:28

    "….Whatever the maximum penalty for this rule break is, they deserve it..'

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    I think we've looked at this before, Jimbo:

    From the Judicial Panel Protocol 

    https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/5604/judicial-panel-protocol-2019-20.pdf

    71 94.1 No recognised football body, club, official, Team Official or other member of Team Staff, player, match official, or other person under the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA shall bring the game into disrepute.

     

    [the maximum penalty for clubs in the premiership]

    SPFL Scottish Premiership clubs £5,000,000 and/or ejection from Scottish Cup and/or exclusion from the Scottish Cup and/or any player registration restrictions and/or suspension and/ or termination of membership and/or any sanction or disposal not expressly provided above, provided that such other sanctions are sanctions listed in respect of other Rules or at Paragraph 3 to this Annex A.

    In my opinion insufficiently founded allegations, bordering on criminal slander, of improper behaviour of officials/directors of the SPFL in the execution of their duties rank very high indeed.Perhaps they are the very worst allegations that can be made against any holder of office!

    Will  anyone against whom allegations have been made personally take legal action?

    Will the matter even be referred to the Compliance Officer? 

    Will the SMSM ever tell the truth about any matter affecting TRFC?

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