LNS – A Summary

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LNS – A Summary

 

cropped-sfmSquare.pngLNS is currently back in the headlines. It might therefore be a good time to try to set out a timeline describing correspondence we had with the representatives of the authorities over discrepancies and anomalies that appeared to have arisen. None of this is necessarily predicated upon the recent findings of the CoS in the Big Tax Case, but stands on its own.

Back in February 2014 The Scottish Football Monitor wrote to Harper MacLeod, the law firm that the SPL had engaged to gather evidence for the Lord Nimmo Smith (LNS) Commission investigating the full and proper registration of players paid by Rangers Football Club under Employee Benefit Trust (EBT) arrangements.

The initial set-up of the LNS Commission on 5th March 2012 by the SPL (View File) charged LNS with a look at EBTs from 1st July 1998 (when the SPL came into being).

In practice though, the Commission only looked at EBTs from 23 November 2000 onwards.

This change of date was based on the earliest side letter supplied by Duff and Phelps, although Harper MacLeod had requested ALL documentation from 1998 to March 2012 relating to ALL EBTs.

This prompted a series of letters to Harper MacLeod from The Scottish Football Monitor, although Harper MacLeod’s replies failed to address the issues raised.

The passage of time blurs memories but this archive is designed to remind readers of those blogs and correspondence, and the key points contained in them.

It also highlights the apparent inability or unwillingness on the part of the SPL and SFA to engage with us in any meaningful way.

NB: The SFA were informed of our correspondence by Harper MacLeod in October 2014.

It is extremely difficult to be concise in this situation. There are various strands of argument and details seemingly small, but vitally important – however the following is an attempt to make the material accessible and provides links to the relevant files in chronological order (links are in green).

 

  • Item 1: The first SFM letter of 19th February 2014 to Harper MacLeod
  • Item 2The Annexes containing the documents apparently not supplied to Harper Macleod in the spring of 2012 along with other pertinent information about the testimony given to LNS during the Commission.
  • Item 3The SFM response of 29 March 2014 to Harper MacLeod’s reply to the first letter.
  • Item 3.1: An SFM analysis of Harper MacLeod’s initial reply attached to response at 3.
  • Item 4: An SFM blog of 5th September pointing out how the documents not supplied had a direct impact on the advice given to the SPL Board to accept The Decision of The LNS Commission.
  • Item 5: The last letter of 4th October 2014 to Harper MacLeod answering points raised by them (see next) and thanking them for passing our correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer who has so far deigned not to reply.
  • Item 5.1Harper MacLeod’s actual response to SFM 5th September letter.
  • Item 6: An SFM Blog (Inc. a transcript of an interview between Alex Thomson and Stewart Regan).
  • Item 6.1: Truncated version of above blog.
  • Item 7: A clearer extract of key document from Item 2 Annexes

 

Having no locus to demand answers from the SPL or the SFA, all we can do is provide information – information that we believe presents a prima facie case that LNS was deeply flawed even before the latest developments in the Tax Case came to light. The challenge for us is this: what can we do about it?

It is clear from the meagre response we have received that the authorities are unwilling to engage with us, so it is fair to assume that further correspondence will be met with the same lack of response.

Are we merely a bunch of obsessed nut-jobs with our own take on the Flat Earth conspiracy? If that is the case, surely a few words of explanation to dispel our doubts would have had traction with the rest of the football public. Indeed the lack of any reply undoubtedly serves as confirmation of our belief that something may be seriously wrong.

The questions have been posed. The SFA appears to think that not answering them is a wise course of action. Given that anecdotal evidence presents a compelling case that the general football public are widely in agreement with us, are there any journalists out there who will take the time to look at what we have observed and what we seek clarification on?

There are undoubtedly inferences to be drawn from the evidence we have, and from the silence of the authorities.

The statement by Celtic on Friday 13th November is certainly a start in the process we wish to begin, but it only mentions the elephant in the room. It gives no clue about how it could be transported to another place.

In the first instance we at SFM seek only explanations, and despite the inferences mentioned earlier, we are still eager to be satisfied that rules were followed and justice done.

Is there really  nobody in the MSM who has the courage to seek the answers we seek? I suspect not. What we do in the absence of that courage is important. We are at a crossroads. Either we give up on the game altogether and spend our Saturdays and Sundays doing other things – or we find a way to get these questions out of blog pages and into the mainstream.

We need an alliance of fans of all clubs to do that, and we will be looking to build that alliance. I would urge fans of all clubs to give this material to fan sites of their own clubs.

These are not just words. There can be no movement on this issue unless our reach is extended. SFM alone does not have the clout required to bring the clubs to the table or the MSM to fair and balanced reporting. We need that alliance of fans desperately. We don’t seek leadership of that alliance – but we are happy to provide it if required.

This is not a campaign to have Rangers punished. I understand that Rangers fans (since their club is in the middle of this mess) are reluctant to see us as anything other than a bunch of Rangers haters.

That is unequivocally not the case from the perspective of the moderators of this blog. SFM is committed to justice, and to the integrity of the sport we all love.

Justice is ON THE SIDE of Rangers and their fans – it does not conspire against them. A growing number of Rangers fans are coming round to our way of thinking and our tone must reflect that. This is not a Celtic or  Hearts or Aberdeen or anybody else v Rangers issue. This is a fans v corrupt authorities issue.

We all deserve answers, and hopefully our alliance will compel each individual club to act in the interests of the fans .

 

 

 

 

 

About the author

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Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

2,349 Comments so far

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parttimearabPosted on6:19 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Allyjambo 8th December 2015 at 5:15 pm #Well, I’ve just read the BBC report that Ann Budge and others were unaware of these changes;
=======================
Which I find surprising as the proposed changes have been bouncing about for some time….the following is from 14th October…..

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/612162/Scottish-League-Cup-summer-new-group-phase-SPFL-Scotland

IIRC these changes were first mooted this summer.

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The Ungrateful DeadPosted on6:19 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Wonder if James Doleman knows what is happening re DK’s court appearance tomorrow?

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on6:21 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Clarification?????

Ewan Murray ‏@mrewanmurray 11m11 minutes ago SPFL statement says clubs received League Cup info yesterday afternoon. Same as the media, then.

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on6:34 pm - Dec 8, 2015


bobferris 8th December 2015 at 5:09 pm # Allyjambo – the old days of the 18 team league came before play offs had been heard of. If we had a top league of 18 with two down automatically and third and fourth bottom being a relegation play off place with the third and fourth top sides from the division below, interest would be sustained to the end of the season. Teams in mid table in February would have one eye on pushing for a European place while knowing that a bad run could easily see them drop down towards the relegation play offs. That’s my solution, maybe needs a tweak here or there but I don’t see a lot of meaningless matches. The English Championship and League 1 & 2 rarely has meaningless matches for both sides until maybe the last two weeks of the season.
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The gap between the top clubs and the bottom clubs would remain, with the same five or six clubs being involved in the battle to avoid the play offs every season. Assuming your scenario was introduced, that is. I still don’t see how the product on the pitch would improve, or more interest be created, regardless of how it was tweaked.

If, for the moment, we ignore the fact that 3 clubs we would not normally expect to see in the Championship, Hearts, Hibs and TRFC, have been there this past two seasons, as things stand, the top one, or two, Championship clubs can come up and make a go of the Premiership and replace a club not significantly better than them. In the scenario you paint, the 19th and 20th clubs in the league will/may come up and be pitted against clubs like Celtic, Aberdeen etc. they will get regular pastings, as happened in the 50s and 60s. That’s not nice when you are on the receiving end, and it has the opposite effect from what you might expect when they next play the victorious team, as the victorious team’s supporters lose interest and many stay away!

In the 60s, I often heard from supporters of all teams, ‘I’m not going on Saturday, we’ll win too easily, or if we don’t, I don’t want to see it’, or words to that effect.

If people think that playing a club you haven’t seen before attracts larger crowds, take a look at the crowds clubs get against teams from even just one division down when they meet them in the League or Scottish Cup!

In all the years I regularly attended Hearts matches in 10 or 12 team leagues, I never once heard anyone say that they weren’t going to watch a match because they’d already seen the opposition that season, though I did hear many a non-attender make the excuse that they didn’t like the thought that teams played each other four times a season. They still didn’t go to watch them even once, though! Are there supporters of any clubs that go to watch their club play each of their opponents once, but that’s it for the season? I’m sure, though, that there are a number that will go to the ‘big’ matches but not the ones against teams at the bottom!

I don’t know, though, the return to a failed model (or perhaps one better described as declining) might work.

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Danish PastryPosted on6:40 pm - Dec 8, 2015


John Clark 7th December 2015 at 10:04 pm #
Interesting that BBC Radio Scotland ‘sportsound’phoned Jim Spence this evening for his views on that eejti Roger Mitchell’s account of the ‘merger’ between Dundee and Dundee Utd in 1998. Mitchell eariler today was reported as sort of breaking it as new story, hitherto unheard.It was , of course, all old hat to Spency, and according to him, everybody in football at the time knew about.The man is a buffoon (Mitchell, that is, not Spency!)
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That was an odd one, John. Even I remember the Dundee club fusion debate. It filtered beyond Scotland’s shores. Just shows that in a just world Jim Spence would be a senior sports correspondent with the BBC. Instead we get an ill-informed succession of EBT holders and Sevco apologists. Help ma freakin boab. And now Mr Mitchell is a Dave “it’ll all end in tears” King prophet of doom — only a few months late, but he does live south of the Alps. Is he actually fishing for a well-paid Hampden stipend? Wine cellar inventory low?   
Glad to hear the audio foam and egg boxes are being installed. Look forward to the next podcast. That Jonny McFarlane is stealing all the action 🙂

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wottpiPosted on7:43 pm - Dec 8, 2015


parttimearab 8th December 2015 at 6:19 pm

A lot of negativity around the announcement on the blog re this one but as pointed out it has been on the cards for a while.

I can’t blame us given our phasers default setting is ‘cynical’ and our attention is nearly always being caught and diverted to developments down Govan way.

Our monitoring of Scottish Football is perhaps not all encompassing!

From the Express article the SPFL have done exactly what it said on the tin, format agreed of group stages in July and announced the plans before the end of the year.

Like the idea or not at least this time the SPFL seem to have had a plan, developed it and worked to a timetable. 

Pundits and players on Sportsound seemed very positive and said they had gotten good feedback from others within the game. Ross County like it, Budge appears to like it but wishes more detail had been given out in a longer rime period prior to announcement. Motherwell a bit miffed.

Still think it is worth a go. What’s to lose as we can go back to the discredited system the season after.

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scottc

scottcPosted on7:44 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Why on earth is Roger Mitchell suddenly being interview or canvassed for an opinion every other day this last week or two?

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HighlanderPosted on7:45 pm - Dec 8, 2015


In view of the many comments on here relating to the poor quality of our mainstream media, I thought it might be useful to start compiling a dictionary which reflects the attributes of our less-than-intrepid sports journalists. Feel free to add your own.
 
Lambivalent – able to see both sides of a story before dismissing the factual one
 
Lambidextrous – able to type propaganda and spin using either hand
 
Lambitious – straying into dangerous territory, eg typing the words ‘liquidation’ followed by  ‘new club’ in the same sentence
 
Lambiguous – able to be interpreted in more than one way before dismissal of the correct version
 
Lambrini – decidedly less quaffable than a ‘fine red’ from SDM  or DCK and more likely to make you gag than be gagged
 
Lambrusco – of similar quality to Lambrini but with less of a hint of paint stripper
 
Lambrosia – the food of the gods, elixir of life, a mouthful of the most succulent lamb
 
Tupperware – the apparel of a mature uncastrated journalist

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jimmciPosted on7:53 pm - Dec 8, 2015


scottc 8th December 2015 at 7:44 pm #Why on earth is Roger Mitchell suddenly being interview or canvassed for an opinion every other day this last week or two?
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noticed he he wasn’t even worthy of a mention on tonight’s Sportsound.

wonder why? Was it something he said today?

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tony

tonyPosted on8:04 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Andy Newport @AndyNewportPADave King’s London court hearing for case alleging he breached Sports Direct gagging order pushed back to Thursday

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Big PinkPosted on8:11 pm - Dec 8, 2015


In case no-one has noticed. A new podcast is available here;

http://www.podbean.com/media/player/j8cxi-5acd81?

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on8:18 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Tony

So whatevether the huddle was about at Ibrox, satisfaction has not ensued.
Games back on.
Or they’ve a day to dump Dave.

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tony

tonyPosted on8:28 pm - Dec 8, 2015


ianagain
maybe DK negotiating way out lol

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Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on8:31 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Test…Clicked on an AD02

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on8:43 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Highlander 8th December 2015 at 7:45 pm #
Lambasted: SMSM lackeys turned on spit with fire burning underneath.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on8:44 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Cluster One 8th December 2015 at 8:31 pm #

I don’t know how or where to click on Ad!! Any help from anyone?10

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The Ungrateful DeadPosted on9:03 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Highlander 8th December 2015 at 7:45 ; LAMINATED- The many layers of spin and crap excreted by the SMSM!

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Methilhill Stroller

Methilhill StrollerPosted on9:07 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Ally jambo
If only I was in UK I might be looking for a hoard of nuts for the festive season because there are so many squirrels about.
Absolute silence from the bunker and suddenly a decision made without clubs being consulted – all the makings of a desperate deflection gambit after AGM results and a range of court cases from tomorrow onwards.
Desperate days in the bunker and crumbledome. Will a light shine on MA’s team tomorrow or will a weird and wonderful decision be made that kicks can number 94 down the road. As always the numerous directions of this saga make it impossible to follow with any certainty.
Scottish football needs a new broom to sweep the rubbish out of the bunker.

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Kilgore TroutPosted on9:07 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Flambeed: the fate of the reputations of the SMSM lackeys since the coming of the internet bampots. 

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on9:14 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Lambotomy‘ : required procedure prior to initiation into the SMSM sports flock… 191919

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John ClarkPosted on9:18 pm - Dec 8, 2015


The Ungrateful Dead 8th December 2015 at 6:19 pm
‘..Wonder if James Doleman knows what is happening re DK’s court appearance tomorrow?’
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He does.He re-tweeted Newport’s tweet about an hour ago.04

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joes11Posted on9:20 pm - Dec 8, 2015


I have only fairly recently come upon this site and I do not have the depth of knowledge that the excellent posters I have been reading here have of the characters involved in the disgraceful events surrounding Rangers and the new club that now operates out of Ibrox; so forgive me if this observation is superficial. One wee thing that has been niggling at me is that, even on this excellent site, there appears to be a view that, while Dave King may be a rogue, others who have aligned themselves with him to take control at the Ibrox club are more ‘honourable’, that they have somehow been ‘duped’ by him. I have no great knowledge of any of the characters involved, but people like Park are portrayed as honest businessmen; and there are often comments questioning how (or how long) such individuals of  reputable standing can continue to be associated with King. However, it seems to me that this approach has echoes in the longstanding nonsense that portrayed SDM as an honest businessman who was duped by CW. Is it not the case, put simply, that a group of people have gained power through association with, and making use of, the populist King – and all are equally responsible for any opprobrium that may be thought appropriate for anything that follows? Who has been using whom?

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paddy malarkey

paddy malarkeyPosted on9:24 pm - Dec 8, 2015


I think that what’s happening to Malmo could easily have happened to Celtic against any of the big boys ,given the way they are defending presently . Couldnae keep weans oot a close(John Lambie).

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Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on9:28 pm - Dec 8, 2015


jean7brodie 8th December 2015 at 8:44 pm #Cluster One 8th December 2015 at 8:31 pm #
I don’t know how or where to click on Ad!! Any help from anyone?
——————–
Double left click on ad. At top or side of page

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The Ungrateful DeadPosted on9:31 pm - Dec 8, 2015


John Clark 8th December 2015 at 9:18 pm #                                                                           Thanks JC!                                                                                                                                      

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incredibleadamspark

incredibleadamsparkPosted on10:17 pm - Dec 8, 2015


LAMBATEUR – An embarrassing attempt at spin from the SMSM that’s so obvious its practically off the radar. 

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bobferrisPosted on10:24 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Allyjambo – Fair points. I suppose we just don’t have the strength of club further down the league set up that England does to make it an ideal solution (an 18 team league with play offs) but I’d still like to give it a try. You could get clubs like Dunfermline and Ayr making the step up and they could make a real go of it or it could be Alloa and Cowdenbeath and it would be a bit crap! No offence to those clubs, just being realistic.

As for the League Cup revamp, I still can’t get my head around it. Four games just to get to Round 2, how many folk can’t be arsed going to a one off Round 1 match as it is!

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on10:24 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Cluster One 8th December 2015 at 9:28 pm #

Which page? I can’t see anything about Ads.

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parttimearabPosted on10:26 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Don’t want to rain on anyone’s conspiracy theories but I imagine that the announcement wrt the league cup had more to do with the new BT deal than with Rangers.
In fact I doubt it had anything to do with Rangers at all.
I think we need to keep some sense of perspective here.

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on10:49 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Calambity…….. An AGM spun as a satisfactory outcome.
Over-lambitious………Talk of Champions League.
Silencer of the lambs………A tale proven incorrect  by Bampots, within seconds of going to print. 
Slamb-dunk………..A banning order for stepping outwith the programme. 
Lambidextrous……..Confusing the old club with the new club and vice versa

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John ClarkPosted on11:04 pm - Dec 8, 2015


joes11 8th December 2015 at 9:20 pm
‘…. and I do not have the depth of knowledge that the excellent posters I have been reading here have of the characters involved in the disgraceful events surrounding Rangers and the new club that now operates out of Ibrox…………. Is it not the case, put simply, that a group of people have gained power through association with, and making use of, the populist King – and all are equally responsible for any opprobrium that may be thought appropriate for anything that follows? Who has been using whom? ..’
________
Nicely put, joes11. 
There is no real distinction to be made as to which of the ferrets in the bag is less of a ferret than the others.
But , interesting and  entertaining as the degrees of viciousness of individual ferrets in the bag of ferrets relative to each other may be in itself, we have to keep our focus on what our Football Authorities may do to assist the ferret or ferrets who emerge triumphantly alive from the bloodied bag.
In other words, it does not matter a tuppenny toss to the rest of us which baddie(s) win control of the Boardroom, or whether TRFC lives or dies at their hands.
What is of paramount importance is that our Football Authorities publicly assert that
TRFC is NOT the Rangers of SDM or Craig Whyte
That TRFC is not entitled to claim to have been in existence since 18 oatcake
That the club which was born in 18 oatcake is not entitled to a certain number of sporting titles and honours, because they were ‘won’ by systematic, cold-blooded cheating by their majority shareholder
and That , if TRFC goes belly-up into Liquidation, the said Football Authorities will not countenance a repeat , with a new charlatan founder of another new club,of the truly disgraceful ‘5-Way Agreement’ in order to ‘save’ it.
That is, the real baddies have been our very own Football Authorities, and we must call them to account now, and make it abundantly clear that if they do not return our game to some kind of honesty and integrity, they will kill the game:
and we must warn them off even thinking of accommodating another new club, if the assets presently (although in the case of one important asset, there might be some dispute)held by TRFC are bought in a Liquidation sale by a newly founded club, Charles Green style.

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ChicagoYouthCoach

ChicagoYouthCoachPosted on11:46 pm - Dec 8, 2015


Lambentable – sob story concocted by SMSM to create victimhood where it doesn’t exist.
Unlambented – general public reaction to said SMSM sob story and subsequent liquidation II.
Flimb flamb – SFA, SFPL and SMSM marching in lockstep in a feeble contrived ineffective attempt to jury-rig existing rules for the benefit of one particular club.
Glamborous – a Potemkin Village-type construction. Made to look shiny on the outside but having no real substance. See TRFC, Ibrox, SFA, etc. Totally unconvincing.
Clambor – a choir of senseless voices emanating from Ibrox, Hampden and SMSM that “It’s the same club” despite all evidence to the contrary. Volume and frequency suggest the shouters believe, “If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.”

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paulsatimPosted on11:49 pm - Dec 8, 2015


“Lambeggery”, the drum beating for the attack dogs by the SMSM’s favourite club.

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John ClarkPosted on1:17 am - Dec 9, 2015


parttimearab 8th December 2015 at 10:26 pm
‘… I imagine that the announcement wrt the league cup had more to do with the new BT deal than with Rangers.In fact I doubt it had anything to do with Rangers at all.I think we need to keep some sense of perspective here.’
_____
Aye, I think there was an element of confusion crept in, as between ‘League restructuring’ and the re-jigging of the League cup competitition.Two quite different things.
Re-jigging the League Cup competition is one of the many, many matters that we would all love to be speaking about, and enjoying speaking about, because it’s about the actual game and sporting competition.
But, and it’s damnable, when we are living with a football Administration that has betrayed and continues to betray any notion of Sporting Integrity, it is very difficult to summon up any enthusiasm for the things that we once were very enthusiastic about.
Who now can believe a cantingly hypocritical  word that comes from the 6th Floor about sporting competitions, and the great way forward etc etc?
The deep, the deep and infected sore of the Big Lie vitiates anything that the SFA now says or does.
They simply must acknowledge their ‘mistakes’ and correct them. They KNOW that.
God grant them the grace and mercy to come clean, and set about correcting their ‘mistakes’. It’s the only way.
When they do, we will be merciful.

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YellohoosePosted on2:02 am - Dec 9, 2015


Er,  not forgetting Lambden, our National Stadium. I’ll get my sheepskin…

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jimboPosted on3:00 am - Dec 9, 2015


John Clark, just catching up, as usual you pick up the bits and pieces of posts and take from them the focus of this community.  04

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jimboPosted on3:12 am - Dec 9, 2015


Also, on a lighter note, as anyone might know I care a great deal for the smileys.  I was disturbed two days ago that the lambs had disappeared 191919 20 05  .  I just thought how can there be no lambs at this time of the year? 

I’m thinking ahead.  We could be doing with a smiley of St. Joseph, BVM, baby Jesus and 3 wise men.  In all honesty I don’t think I will get this but I’ve already thought up a nativity scene for Christmas Eve which excludes them. 

24th.  Shortly after midnight. 19 25th.

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helpmaboab

helpmaboabPosted on7:13 am - Dec 9, 2015


Re the thuggery after the Rangers Celtic match. The misreporting of this incident is what we’ve come to expect from the press in this country.Never let the facts get in the way of a ‘good’story. Of course,We have to have an O/F or our game will die as Keevins,Jackson,et al are  fond of telling us but when trouble erupts,these types are the first to sensationalise it.Hypocrites.07

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helpmaboab

helpmaboabPosted on7:21 am - Dec 9, 2015


Help ma freakin boab
Danish. Stop taking my name in vain!03

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Bryce CurdyPosted on8:54 am - Dec 9, 2015


Anyone have any idea when we might expect to hear whether BDO have been granted the right to appeal the CoS decision?

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Jungle JimPosted on9:06 am - Dec 9, 2015


I’ve got my supplies in, flask of coffee, sandwiches and biscuits so I don’t have to leave my desk.  What time does the fun begin?

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on9:09 am - Dec 9, 2015


For the glossary:

Llambias: to ask a rhetorical question, such as, “Where’s your money, Mr. King?” 

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on9:16 am - Dec 9, 2015


parttimearab 8th December 2015 at 10:26 pm # Don’t want to rain on anyone’s conspiracy theories but I imagine that the announcement wrt the league cup had more to do with the new BT deal than with Rangers. In fact I doubt it had anything to do with Rangers at all. I think we need to keep some sense of perspective here.
______________________________________
Very likely the case, pta, but I wonder if the timing of the announcement, with at least two chairpersons of clubs angry that the news was, at the least, rushed out before they’d had time to digest it, was influenced by matters surrounding TRFC this week!

Regardless, this is yet another example of what happens when the public are continuously lied to or taken for mugs. Sensible people don’t believe people who continually lie to them, and suspect their every announcement as having some ulterior motive.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on9:20 am - Dec 9, 2015


Within comments on Phil’s site there is a suggestion that King hearing delayed until tomorrow, can anyone confirm?

EDIT: Never mind, have seen same on James Dolman’s twitter.

Also understand that this is in London, anyone know which Court, I might just be able to swing by?

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on9:24 am - Dec 9, 2015


Jungle Jim 9th December 2015 at 9:06 am # I’ve got my supplies in, flask of coffee, sandwiches and biscuits so I don’t have to leave my desk.  What time does the fun begin?
_______________________

Tomorrow o’clock I think! Or it does if it’s the King contempt of court case you are thinking about as it’s been put back 24 hours05

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John ClarkPosted on9:32 am - Dec 9, 2015


“League chief executive Neil Doncaster has floated the idea of enlarging the top flight to 14 teams………Doncaster ,speaking at the Scottish FA convention at Hampden yesterday,mentioned the idea of a bigger league in the context of the revamping of the league cup.”( ‘The Scotsman. this morning)”
There he goes. Far from being repentant or ashamed of his part in the Big Lie, he carries on in a hellish, determined bid to ensure that TRFC will, no matter what, be guaranteed a place in the top division.
Bad cess to him, and may he receive his  just deserts for his part in the destruction of Sporting Integrity.

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mungoboyPosted on9:42 am - Dec 9, 2015


Just a thought. 
It seems that, given the one day delay for the court case, King will actually be attending in person rather than have his Brief come up with some compassionate pleas in his absence. 
Then there’s the fact that the court had allocated 3 days for the hearing and will now only have 2 days before all head off for the weekend.
Could that mean they’ve been given a heads up that the hearing will not be a long one, hence their willingness to postpone for a day?
Will Mr King have something succinctly interesting to say or admit to?
As I say, just a thought.

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mungoboyPosted on9:49 am - Dec 9, 2015


JC,
Re Doncaster’s latest big idea, funnily enough the good chaps over in the Den are already salivating at the prospect of yet another wurrld record when they become the first ever winners of the new 14 team top league.
done deal?

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Matty Roth

Matty RothPosted on9:57 am - Dec 9, 2015


I’m in agreement that the release of the league cup rejiggle announcement is surely unrelated to any trfc matters. At least I can’t believe our league authorities would stoop quite that low, can they?
But then again, maybe they employ level5 to do the PR so there may be no depths unplumbed for all I know.
I think there could be other,  just as untoward, reasons for the timing though.. 
If you suggested Doncaster rushed the announcement out because Reagan was trying to steal his thunder with a preemptive press release then that would about fits the level of respect I have for these careerist imbeciles…
In fact I seem to recall the SFA doing something similar with some previous SPFL announcements, almost as if attempting to take some of the credit each time the SPFL agree some change or other.
Could there be some tension there and an unhealthy rivalry between the 2 organisations? 
Or if someone were to suggest that rushing an announcement was an important part of sealing the deal and preventing a BT Sport backout just in case there is about to be a significant change in circumstances.
I don’t know perhaps something significant like say the loss of one of the clubs deemed most important to the broadcasters.
Which brings me to wonder, does this TV deal include any clauses entitling the broadcaster to expect the presence of particular brands? Or giving them the entitlement to compensation or the entitlement to tear up the contract altogether if any particular brand I’d lost?
With what came to light about the last SPL TV deal this is a question any decent sports journalist in Scotland should be asking when every single new TV deal or sponsorship partnership is announce. Ie what conditions are attached to the deal?
Because once such conditions are created they won’t just result in a loss of income for all the clubs but also be used as justification for any fudge that might need to be applied to save a brand protected in the contract.
Which leads me to wonder if THATS the reason the SPFL rushed the announcement – to provide leverage for the maintenance at all costs of any club brands that may be at risk.
See, I try to start out positive and open minded but really it’s hard to do so given all that we now know.

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wee_alpha

wee_alphaPosted on10:06 am - Dec 9, 2015


With regards to revamped League Cup and Hearts and Motherwell’s dissatisfaction, reading between the lines I think that they would have liked more detail before it was released to the press (and it would appear the clubs) on Monday night. For example, 

  • has the pricing been fixed (I wouldn’t want it to be any higher than £10 adults £2 children)
  • How is the gate money shared – is it home club keeps all, 50-50 spilt or some kind of gate pooling.
  • How is the BT “prize” money allocated – straight split across all teams or a sliding scale 
  • How will the groups be decided – there seems to be confusion between seeded and regional
  • can all teams ensure their pitches are ready to play on. At the end of last season Motherwell ripped up their pitch and reseeded it, because their season was extended due to the play-offs this meant that the pitch could not be used until first league game in August. 
  • Are part-time teams going to be hurt financially if they have to start players contracts earlier

I think if these and no doubt other details had been discussed and decisions made then both clubs would have been satisfied.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on10:09 am - Dec 9, 2015


mungoboy 9th December 2015 at 9:42 am #Just a thought.  It seems that, given the one day delay for the court case, King will actually be attending in person rather than have his Brief come up with some compassionate pleas in his absence. 

Radar Jackson confirmed on Twitter yesterday that King was jetting in for the hearing. A wise move, I feel, given the nature of the proceedings. The court will be expecting King to show that he respects its authority.
I expect King to make a humble apology,  promise to be a very good boy from now on, and receive a slap on the wrist by way of a fine.
John James’ opinion that King faces Christmas in Pentonville is just wishful thinking, in my view.
He seems to base this on King’s suspended sentence for contempt imposed by a South African court. A South African suspended sentence has absolutely no bearing on UK proceedings. A UK court cannot activate a South African suspended sentence- only a South African court could do so. And I doubt very much that contempt (even if established) in the UK would interest a South African court.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on10:23 am - Dec 9, 2015


I think his SA conviction is absolutely relevant, maybe just not quite in the way that is assumed.

The relevance of King’s South African contempt charge IMHO would be that not only does it take away a potential defence of the charge but it also shows a pattern of behaviour (not respecting courts) that would be relevant when it come to sentencing i.e. under other circumstances a judge might indeed deliver a slap on the wrist but if the defendant is currently serving a suspended sentence for the same crime in another jurisdiction the judge may feel less lenient. 

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mungoboyPosted on10:24 am - Dec 9, 2015


Neeps,
I agree.
I think a grovelling apology is the best option for King.
The legal costs will be a bit of a bummer though.
As you say, JJ might be disappointed that King doesn’t go down the steps towards festive incarceration. I never thought it was a serious proposition what with 2 different jurisdictions and all that.
Still, good to watch though.

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rabtdogPosted on10:25 am - Dec 9, 2015


The League Cup revampOrganisationally it’s going to be a hostage to circumstance. Take the league table right now as a guide and you knock Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts and St Johnstone out of the first round. That means you base your eight ‘regional groups’ around Hamilton, Dingwall, Dundee, Inverness, Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Motherwell and Dundee again. Geographically it doesn’t make much sense; that’s going to be a fudge. Not overly fond of the ‘UEFA Cup’ style one-off group games either, two home and two away yes, but playing each other home and away would be fairer. The inclusion of the non-league champs is a good idea however, and competitive games in July should also be quite attractive. Overall, a mixed bag.

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Matty Roth

Matty RothPosted on10:53 am - Dec 9, 2015


rabtdog
The League Cup revampOrganisationally it’s going to be a hostage to circumstance. Take the league table right now as a guide and you knock Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts and St Johnstone out of the first round. That means you base your eight ‘regional groups’ around Hamilton, Dingwall, Dundee, Inverness, Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Motherwell and Dundee again. Geographically it doesn’t make much sense; that’s going to be a fudge. Not overly fond of the ‘UEFA Cup’ style one-off group games either, two home and two away yes, but playing each other home and away would be fairer. The inclusion of the non-league champs is a good idea however, and competitive games in July should also be quite attractive. Overall, a mixed bag.

I actually think we get too hung up on some of these things rabtdog.
For example regionalising the league really shouldn’t be contraversial and we shouldn’t expect the regionalisation to be a perfect or even close to perfect geographical carve up. Regionalised competitions all over the world manage this just fine and the divisions or conferences created don’t all need only be loosely organised in a regional sense.
This creates a little more local rivalry, a little less travel and a sense of anticipation when each mini league finishes and the top teams then go into a playoff against the other league winners.
So, geography isn’t actually that important in my opinion, we shouldn’t get hung up on it as its only a notional way of seperating the teams for the first part of the competition.

Another issue I see people (not you rabtdog or indeed anyone on here) getting hung up on is when a winter break should happen and I’ve seen the usual arguments coming out about how the weather is unpredictable and we might have good weather for those 2 weeks chosen for the break etc etc.
Again I think people get far too hung up on this and need to just look at the bigger picture – we can pick any 2 weeks in December or January and swap them with 2 weeks in July and be quite confident that 99 times out of 100 those 2 weeks in July will be better weather.
That some people, including our journalists and pundits are moaning about a break because the weather is unpredictable is really quite sad. By there argument we might as well not bother playing outdoor sports in Scotland at all – as the weather is always unpredictable.
And of course thats a stupid argument, but demonstrates my point I hope.
A winter break isn’t about specifically trying to predict and avoid the 2 worst weeks every winter, its about making a sensible decision to play when the weather is generally better and conducive to good football.
Nevertheless i fully expect the first time we have a mild period during the winter break that all the hacks and pundits will be lining up to decry the break and insist it is immediately scrapped because it “doesn work”, much as I seem t recall they all did the last time.
And so on it goes, Scottish Football is forever trapped by administrators, club chairpeople and journalists of little vision or thought.

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Matty Roth

Matty RothPosted on11:03 am - Dec 9, 2015


With regard to the League Cup announcement and the TV Deal, and (purely my own suggestion) possible clauses naming particular brands, I of course forgot to suggest these additional questions (silly me, I should know by now to assume nothing):
– Which brands are named?
– Why those and not others?
– Why name any at all?
– Who suggested such a clause in the first instance?
Because I would not put it past the SPFL to specifically ask for such a clause, just in case they need to use it as a reason to massage rules and maintain brand continuity in future so as to be able to “maintain the existing contracts for the good of the game”.
As JC reminds us, we cannot (and do not) trust these people.
Until we have new faces in charge, I will not trust anything these organisations do is honest and open.
We know they are adept at hiding contractual small print and secret back room agreements created by devious minds for nefarious purposes.

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ThomTheThim

ThomTheThimPosted on11:09 am - Dec 9, 2015


mungobhoy,

Surely DCK will have a condition in his contract that TRFC will cover his legal costs.?

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bfbpuzzledPosted on11:50 am - Dec 9, 2015


lambkin – a fellow lodge member or wee lamb – eg Chick Young 

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Gym TrainerPosted on12:13 pm - Dec 9, 2015


Lambada – the dancing around the rules practised by the SPL, SFL, SFA, SPFL, etc
Lamb Bader – the beknighted source of the most recent woes. (cf.  Sir Douglas Bader)

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jimlarkinPosted on12:25 pm - Dec 9, 2015


Does today’s ‘Carmichael’ court ruling mean that being a proven Liar does indeed make you a fit and proper person

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Bogs DolloxPosted on12:33 pm - Dec 9, 2015


Smugas 8th December 2015 at 3:59 pm #Bogs dollox.
Show me how restructuring would help the greater good in that though?  (It goes without saying on here that we all see how it benefits the 1).  Would average crowds go up?  Almost certainly yes because you start to fill fifty thousand seater stadiums again to distort the average.  But tell me how a more all-encompassing league (I avoided the lazy “more competitive” mantra of the msm) will get more along on a Friday night to St J versus Dundee (purely for illustrative purposes, picking up on a Cosgrove discussion thread the other week)? Genuinely interested.  The hunch, in fact more than a hunch, was always that the SPhell was being run for two clubs, or 1 club with one riding on coat-tails, or 1 riding a wave of rebellious upstart versus the establishment 1 – whatever, the point is it benefitted 2 clubs.  It didn’t benefit the others as ably demonstrated by R Mitchells comments a few weeks ago.  Show me how this changes that for mid table SPL clubs whose vote will be required to carry it off?Security to plan ahead, not looking over their shoulder for relegation?  Perhaps.  But that smacks of a Spurs-esque comfort zone complacency, not a fantastic base for growth and excitement which is kind of the point. Top ex SPL clubs I can see supporting it because, mercenary to a fault, it clears their way slightly for Europe.  Top four championship clubs I can especially see the benefit.  But all those in between? 
Not convinced.  As ever, show me the numbers!   
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have no numbers!
My comments were merely an observation that for financial reasons (annual losses of £8m) TRFC cannot survive another year in the Championship. As the SFA, SPFL and the other clubs know this now they will have a contingency plan in place because it apperars they understand their job is to look after TRFC at any cost.

I wasn’t calling for an expanded League but I am interested in looking at what the advantages and disadvantages of having more teams would be. For example, it may provide more stability for some clubs who without the real fear of relegation and the resulting financial armageddon they could consider playing a more attacking style of football. Perhaps this could be encouraged by awarding extra points for goals and if as you say, there are four Euro places it may improve competition

A while back another poster on here ran some numbers which showed the benefit of having Rangers in the League was of marginal benefit to most clubs, bar Celtic and of course TRFC. The benefits of TRFC supporters at away games and improved TV rights packages did not add much.

What was more important as you note is the fair distribution of income down the league and not a system which it is skewed to favour two clubs only.
I agree the changes would be difficult to implement as each club has its own interests and agenda and rarely consider the bigger picture and what might benefit the whole of Scottish football. That I suppose is why it is vital that we continue the criticism of the authorities, SMSM and their attempts to reconstruct their two team conception of what Scottish Football is.

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Ex LudoPosted on12:35 pm - Dec 9, 2015


Lamb-retta. Preferred choice of transport for those members of the SMSM who wish to escape awkward questions in a hurry.
I’ll get my parka.

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on12:53 pm - Dec 9, 2015


BREAKING NEWS – WEDNESDAY, 9 DECEMBER 2015

BBC Radio Scotland Sportsound

30 minute interview of Stewart Regan by Kenny McIntyre includes discussion of the infamous top secret 5-WayAgreement

Prepare to be underwhelmed by Kenny’s poor level of questioning!

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FinlochPosted on12:54 pm - Dec 9, 2015


John Clark 9th December 2015 at 9:32 am #
“League chief executive Neil Doncaster has floated the idea of enlarging the top flight to 14 teams………Doncaster ,speaking at the Scottish FA convention at Hampden yesterday,mentioned the idea of a bigger league in the context of the revamping of the league cup.”( ‘The Scotsman. this morning)”……
……………………………………………………………………….
I was in the company a week or so back of a good old old uni pal of mine who now represents one of our clubs (and us all) on the Congress, one of the SFA “looking ahead” groups.
I don’t personally know much about the Congress, who else is on it and its role.
From the discussion we had for a few minutes (there were a few of us and I was mostly listening), I don’t think there is any secret that the SFA and the Congress Grouping see bigger leagues as a preferred strategy.
Much of what we have seen and heard in the MSM in the last year or so has been the result of deliberate “placements” to prepare the way for the reorganisation whenever it is planned to happen.

Doncaster’s view yesterday is probably part of their “cascade” process of warming up the clubs and the fans before the necessary stuff gets imposed.

I guess they’ll sell it as being for the good of Scottish Football and all the chairmen will agree.

Maybe one day one of them will take a stand.

Maybe not.

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nawlitePosted on12:56 pm - Dec 9, 2015


Bedlamb – once they’ve made it, they have to continue to lie in it.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on1:01 pm - Dec 9, 2015


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/14-team-premiership-could-be-brought-in-for-2016-17-1-3970519

14-team Premiership ‘could be brought in for 2016/17’

Doncaster on a roll, clearly. However, weren’t we assured that at least a year’s notice would be given of any future reorganisation – or have I just made that up? In any case, it’s surely not right to bring in such a change half way through the previous season- clubs are entitled to know what they are playing for from day one.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on1:03 pm - Dec 9, 2015


jimlarkin 9th December 2015 at 12:25 pm #Does today’s ‘Carmichael’ court ruling mean that being a proven Liar does indeed make you a fit and proper person

I fail to follow your logic here.
The ruling in the Carmichael case was that a politician lying in an interview (found not be a criminal act) is not grounds to overturn the results of an election.  Would be a wonderful precedent if politicians were found liable for lying though 🙂
However, I’m not sure why that would be relevant to the case of somebody with 42 criminal convictions and a director of the predecessor insolvent club being declared fit and proper by the SFA.

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Bogs DolloxPosted on1:06 pm - Dec 9, 2015


neepheid 9th December 2015 at 1:01 pm #http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/14-team-premiership-could-be-brought-in-for-2016-17-1-3970519
14-team Premiership ‘could be brought in for 2016/17’
Doncaster on a roll, clearly. However, weren’t we assured that at least a year’s notice would be given of any future reorganisation – or have I just made that up? In any case, it’s surely not right to bring in such a change half way through the previous season- clubs are entitled to know what they are playing for from day one.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And so the softening up process begins. I see from a post above that Reagan is on the Radio tonight. I wonder if he will mention league reconstruction?

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on1:06 pm - Dec 9, 2015


zerotolerance1903 9th December 2015 at 9:20 am #
Within comments on Phil’s site there is a suggestion that King hearing delayed until tomorrow, can anyone confirm?
EDIT: Never mind, have seen same on James Dolman’s twitter.
Also understand that this is in London, anyone know which Court, I might just be able to swing by?
———————————————————————————————————-
Zero…
PM ianagain who intends to attend the hearing with James Doleman tomorrow.

NB Details of the Court at The Rolls Building 7 Rolls Buildings, Fetter Lane, London EC4A 1NL are subject to change until 5.00pm the day before the hearing.
https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/chancery-division
I might get there too depending on the time of the hearing.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on1:08 pm - Dec 9, 2015


neepheid 9th December 2015 at 1:01 pm #http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/14-team-premiership-could-be-brought-in-for-2016-17-1-3970519
14-team Premiership ‘could be brought in for 2016/17’
Doncaster on a roll, clearly. However, weren’t we assured that at least a year’s notice would be given of any future reorganisation – or have I just made that up? In any case, it’s surely not right to bring in such a change half way through the previous season- clubs are entitled to know what they are playing for from day one.

No, I’m with you on that one.

However I also fail to see the logic for a 14 team league, how would that work fixture wise?  And how would it improve things?

Any league of 12, 14 or 16 teams requires an abomination like the top/bottom 6 split to get to an appropriate number of fixtures.

10 teams playing each other 4 times for 36 matches or 18 teams playing each other twice for 34 works.  We would have quality issues in an 18 team league but the 10 team one has teams playing each other too often.

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on1:10 pm - Dec 9, 2015


sannoffymesssoitizz 9th December 2015 at 1:06 pm #zerotolerance1903 9th December 2015 at 9:20 am #Within comments on Phil’s site there is a suggestion that King hearing delayed until tomorrow, can anyone confirm?EDIT: Never mind, have seen same on James Dolman’s twitter.Also understand that this is in London, anyone know which Court, I might just be able to swing by?———————————————————————————————————-Zero…PM ianagain who intends to attend the hearing with James Doleman tomorrow.
NB Details of the Court at The Rolls Building 7 Rolls Buildings, Fetter Lane, London EC4A 1NL are subject to change until 5.00pm the day before the hearing.https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/chancery-divisionI might get there too depending on the time of the hearing.

Cheers.  If I’m not wrong that used to be Ernst & Young’s London office.  I know it well. I used to work in their Aberdeen office with Rod Petrie and Graham Wallace!

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mungoboyPosted on1:35 pm - Dec 9, 2015


To the people who saw an elderly (!) gent in fits of uncontrollable laughter in my local Waitrose just now, I can but apologise.
There I was having my coffee and danish when browsing on my phone I came across a link to a Pulitzer Prize winning article in the ET by a Mr Jack which breathlessly  told the tale of the emotional evening spent by Craig Houston and his silver headed, old father in the Blue Room.
It seems that all and sundry were slapping him on the back for his efforts in the ‘battle’ and even someone called Smith referred to him as a ‘hero’.
Best of all though was when John Greig himself, no less, addressed him directly and said
“Aye, son. Everybody knows who you are”
Got me wondering. Do you think, perhaps, Lloyd George knew his father?
This will be right up the Clumpany’s street. Can’t wait!
For health reasons, I won’t do a link

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AuldheidPosted on2:27 pm - Dec 9, 2015


For anyone wanting a better understanding of the Ibrox Share Wars I recommend the latest Podcast between Big Pink and David Low.
I had a better understanding of the factors and impact of Res10 failing as a result   of listening.
Beneath all the rules, chicanery and manipulation I came away with the impression that as long as there is a never ending supply of mugs with money wishing to become mugs without money, then administration of TRFC and the consequences is very unlikely.

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tayred

tayredPosted on2:32 pm - Dec 9, 2015


Matty Roth 9th December 2015 at 10:53 am #

Another issue I see people (not you rabtdog or indeed anyone on here) getting hung up on is when a winter break should happen and I’ve seen the usual arguments coming out about how the weather is unpredictable and we might have good weather for those 2 weeks chosen for the break etc etc.

Hmm, I agree with you Matty with regards to folks saying the weather is too unpredictable etc.. Its not the choice of two weeks off that bothers me per se, but the possibility of fixtures piling up should we hit bad weather is a real problem. 

If we want a winter break then it should be a proper break – take all of January off, and at least part of February. Those are the two months most likely to be badly hit by weather. The pitches get hammered, the players pick up extra injuries and the crowds plummet. I’m afraid I no longer have any great desire to sit in the South stand of Pittodrie in a snow storm like I did in my youth. 

Was it a St Johnstone game at Pittodrie that was abandoned midway through the 2nd half one particularly foul day. Must have been 86 or 87? The snow only came on as half-time approached. Took me 2 hours to walk home through that.. never been so cold and miserable in my life! God knows how the away fans got home….

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zerotolerance1903

zerotolerance1903Posted on2:56 pm - Dec 9, 2015


Was it a St Johnstone game at Pittodrie that was abandoned midway through the 2nd half one particularly foul day. Must have been 86 or 87? The snow only came on as half-time approached. Took me 2 hours to walk home through that.. never been so cold and miserable in my life! God knows how the away fans got home….

2nd Jan 1984.

We were 3-0 up in the abandoned match, playing into a hoolie.  Only won the replay 1-0 with super sub getting a last minute winner.

Didn’t stop us winning the League though 🙂

As an aside we lost in the Semi Final to Porto in our attempt to retain the ECWC that year, rather contentiously, only to find years later that the referee had been bribed.

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