LNS is currently back in the headlines. It might therefore be a good time to try to set out a timeline describing correspondence we had with the representatives of the authorities over discrepancies and anomalies that appeared to have arisen. None of this is necessarily predicated upon the recent findings of the CoS in the Big Tax Case, but stands on its own.
Back in February 2014 The Scottish Football Monitor wrote to Harper MacLeod, the law firm that the SPL had engaged to gather evidence for the Lord Nimmo Smith (LNS) Commission investigating the full and proper registration of players paid by Rangers Football Club under Employee Benefit Trust (EBT) arrangements.
The initial set-up of the LNS Commission on 5th March 2012 by the SPL (View File) charged LNS with a look at EBTs from 1st July 1998 (when the SPL came into being).
In practice though, the Commission only looked at EBTs from 23 November 2000 onwards.
This change of date was based on the earliest side letter supplied by Duff and Phelps, although Harper MacLeod had requested ALL documentation from 1998 to March 2012 relating to ALL EBTs.
This prompted a series of letters to Harper MacLeod from The Scottish Football Monitor, although Harper MacLeod’s replies failed to address the issues raised.
The passage of time blurs memories but this archive is designed to remind readers of those blogs and correspondence, and the key points contained in them.
It also highlights the apparent inability or unwillingness on the part of the SPL and SFA to engage with us in any meaningful way.
NB: The SFA were informed of our correspondence by Harper MacLeod in October 2014.
It is extremely difficult to be concise in this situation. There are various strands of argument and details seemingly small, but vitally important – however the following is an attempt to make the material accessible and provides links to the relevant files in chronological order (links are in green).
- Item 1: The first SFM letter of 19th February 2014 to Harper MacLeod
- Item 2: The Annexes containing the documents apparently not supplied to Harper Macleod in the spring of 2012 along with other pertinent information about the testimony given to LNS during the Commission.
- Item 3: The SFM response of 29 March 2014 to Harper MacLeod’s reply to the first letter.
- Item 3.1: An SFM analysis of Harper MacLeod’s initial reply attached to response at 3.
- Item 4: An SFM blog of 5th September pointing out how the documents not supplied had a direct impact on the advice given to the SPL Board to accept The Decision of The LNS Commission.
- Item 5: The last letter of 4th October 2014 to Harper MacLeod answering points raised by them (see next) and thanking them for passing our correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer who has so far deigned not to reply.
- Item 5.1: Harper MacLeod’s actual response to SFM 5th September letter.
- Item 6: An SFM Blog (Inc. a transcript of an interview between Alex Thomson and Stewart Regan).
- Item 6.1: Truncated version of above blog.
- Item 7: A clearer extract of key document from Item 2 Annexes
Having no locus to demand answers from the SPL or the SFA, all we can do is provide information – information that we believe presents a prima facie case that LNS was deeply flawed even before the latest developments in the Tax Case came to light. The challenge for us is this: what can we do about it?
It is clear from the meagre response we have received that the authorities are unwilling to engage with us, so it is fair to assume that further correspondence will be met with the same lack of response.
Are we merely a bunch of obsessed nut-jobs with our own take on the Flat Earth conspiracy? If that is the case, surely a few words of explanation to dispel our doubts would have had traction with the rest of the football public. Indeed the lack of any reply undoubtedly serves as confirmation of our belief that something may be seriously wrong.
The questions have been posed. The SFA appears to think that not answering them is a wise course of action. Given that anecdotal evidence presents a compelling case that the general football public are widely in agreement with us, are there any journalists out there who will take the time to look at what we have observed and what we seek clarification on?
There are undoubtedly inferences to be drawn from the evidence we have, and from the silence of the authorities.
The statement by Celtic on Friday 13th November is certainly a start in the process we wish to begin, but it only mentions the elephant in the room. It gives no clue about how it could be transported to another place.
In the first instance we at SFM seek only explanations, and despite the inferences mentioned earlier, we are still eager to be satisfied that rules were followed and justice done.
Is there really nobody in the MSM who has the courage to seek the answers we seek? I suspect not. What we do in the absence of that courage is important. We are at a crossroads. Either we give up on the game altogether and spend our Saturdays and Sundays doing other things – or we find a way to get these questions out of blog pages and into the mainstream.
We need an alliance of fans of all clubs to do that, and we will be looking to build that alliance. I would urge fans of all clubs to give this material to fan sites of their own clubs.
These are not just words. There can be no movement on this issue unless our reach is extended. SFM alone does not have the clout required to bring the clubs to the table or the MSM to fair and balanced reporting. We need that alliance of fans desperately. We don’t seek leadership of that alliance – but we are happy to provide it if required.
This is not a campaign to have Rangers punished. I understand that Rangers fans (since their club is in the middle of this mess) are reluctant to see us as anything other than a bunch of Rangers haters.
That is unequivocally not the case from the perspective of the moderators of this blog. SFM is committed to justice, and to the integrity of the sport we all love.
Justice is ON THE SIDE of Rangers and their fans – it does not conspire against them. A growing number of Rangers fans are coming round to our way of thinking and our tone must reflect that. This is not a Celtic or Hearts or Aberdeen or anybody else v Rangers issue. This is a fans v corrupt authorities issue.
We all deserve answers, and hopefully our alliance will compel each individual club to act in the interests of the fans .
“Now, who’s writing to Houston?”
Dear Houston,
Oh great wee toon aside the Weir,
Yer hoosies there are awfy dear,
Just like yer drink in The Inn or the Hounds,
To live doon here will cost you pounds.
Sorry JC, couldn’t resist it….
My letter to Celtic FC.
Dear Mr Lawell.
I am sure that by now you will be well aware that your counterpart at Aberdeen FC, Mr Milne has recently made a statement regarding the need for the top league in Scotland to have all the top teams present. This would seem to include a re vamp of the current league set up to ensure that a team from Govan is represented. So no matter how any given season pans out we must ensure that all the top teams, regardless of performance on the field of play are represented in the top division. Can you see the glaring problem with this Mr Lawell. No relegation or promotion. Just keep all the top teams in the top division and all will be well. Would that also be the wishes of Celtic FC.?I would like to make you aware, in case you weren’t already, that any jerrymandering of any sort with the current league set up to ensure that the team from Govan is given access to the top division will incur the wrath of many thousands of fans. Not just Celtic fans but fans of the game across Scotland. Club CEO’s will be faced with empty terraces on a weekly basis. This is not an idle threat from a disgruntled individual. This is the groundswell of feeling across the land. In your position within the SFA I would like to think that there is constant and ongoing discussions about all things football in Scotland. I believe that it is your duty to inform the other club Representatives that the fans, the lifeblood of the game, the guys who pay good money to keep you in the lifestyle that you have become accustomed too will have no hesitation in withdrawing access to the green,red,maroon,amber etc pound.I sincerely hope that as a lifetime supporter of our club, one that proudly states that we are in fact more than a club, that Celtic FC has the gumption to stand up for their fans and respect their wishes. There will be No moving on until there is a proper inquest into the cheating of Rangers FC(IL) and the collusion of the SFA and the SPFL in this matter that has dragged Scottish Football to the edge of disaster. Once this has been achieved and any consequences applied then we might be in a better position to move on with the game in Scotland. Ignore the fans on this point and you become complicit in all that has gone before. Your Call.RegardsName and Address Supplied.
More and more it becomes apparent that the football fraternity in Scotland are just a bunch of shits. Chairman after chairman, manager after manager including our national team boss. They do not deserve us. Coming close to the tipping point for me and Accies don’t have many fans to lose!
A heartfelt well done to all the Dons supporters who have taken the time to write to their club’s chairman, some of those letters really hit the head of the nail.
I’ve just read PMGB’s latest blog letting us know Ashley is still avidly watching the goings on at Ibrox. Phil also informs us the £5m remains unpaid. This brought to mind that we, along with the SMSM, haven’t mentioned it today (certainly not in any detail) having been more concerned with the Milne statement. Pretty good squirrel, isn’t it. Mr Milne should realise how he’s been used – and used against his own supporters, or as he would more likely view them, customers! Nothing wrong with being customers, by the way, as long as the club remembers their supporters are much more, and should mean much more, than mere customers.
It’s not nice being used, and if you discover you’ve been used, and do nothing to rectify the position you’ve put yourself in (in this case by a known liar and criminal), then you are as big a mug as the man too thick to realise he’s been used. And then you just leave yourself wide open to be used again.
Homunculus
signed up for NewsNow several weeks ago. No reply to application, but they said not to expect one. It appears, and I really don’t know why, that we are deemed unsuitable for their network.
For those fans writing to their club by e-mail, I would wager that there will be no response due to ‘traffic’. I wrote to the CEO by recorded delivery and asked for his signature and a reply.
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AOB and John Clark(e) and others…
Whilst some of us “old timers” may not use email…and disappearing off into the ether…never to be acknowledged…
On a “point of information”, those adopting the traditional practice of sending surface mail via Royal Mail Recorded Delivery may be assured that this is a resolute waste of time, money and effort…I have this on the best of authority from the senior management of the main sorting office for NE London/West Essex.
“Recorded Delivery” mail as such is simply included in the First Class mail for that day and whilst the legend “Signed for” appears on the official labels, in all manner of operations, most of such mail is not “signed for” and is not “tracked”…given rise to the lack of response encountered so often from these bodies.
The only way to ensure that such mail is indeed “signed for” is to send it via “Special Delivery”, guaranteed to be delivered by either 09.00 hours or 13.00 hours the next day…at a cost of approximately £6.50…but may be tracked along every stage of the process.
Yes…a real bummer of a cost, but used judiciously, may be far better than the less than transparent service offered by Royal Mail.
That’s a pity BP, I can only assume that the blogs themselves aren’t regular enough for them to register you, or whatever they call it.
If they cover Phil Mac’s stuff (someone suggested they do) then it may be worth contacting him to establish how he got on board. For example can you submit individual blogs, or does it have to be a permanent link to anything new.
A little bit of light has been shone on just how valuable the contribution of internet ‘bampots’ is, and in particular, Phil MacGiollaBhain’s. For without his revelation last night of the King crawling letter, we’d have been unaware of what has led to Stewart Milne’s statement in today’s press. We’d have expected some Doncaster led conspiracy, but now it’s pretty clear that Milne’s statement is a direct result of King’s Hampden visit, and regardless of what has made it necessary at this particular time, somebody (Doncaster/King/Regan/TRFC/SFA/SPFL) needs the help of a few club chairmen to overcome some difficult situation they find themselves in.
Oh, and what a pathetic effort it was, for it offered nothing new, and absolutely no explanation was offered as to why the chairman of AFC felt it necessary to make this statement now. We can hazard a few guesses, but one thing’s for sure, it was not for the benefit of Hibernian FC (the other top club Scottish football needs to jerrymander into the Premiership if it’s not good enough to get there on merit, according to Milne)!
Some 4 years on, and the stink is getting stronger.
Christyboy 16th December 2015 at 7:35 pm #“Now, who’s writing to Houston?”
Dear Houston, Oh great wee toon aside the Weir, Yer hoosies there are awfy dear, Just like yer drink in The Inn or the Hounds, To live doon here will cost you pounds.
Sorry JC, couldn’t resist it….
=======================================
Christyboy…I have to say that JC(e)’s perennial favour towards that Shakingspear character would probably be supplanted by my own leaning towards my late father’s favourite…McGonnigale…who would be undoubtedly proud of your own creative verse…
Carfins Finest 16th December 2015 at 7:56 pm
‘..My letter to Celtic FC..’
___________
Excellent, CF.
As a Celtic supporter I think it is very important that the supporters of other clubs lead the way in contacting their own clubs and letting them know what the fans in general feel about recent developments.
That makes it much more difficult for the SMSM to do the usual and basically just say that this is a Celtic v Rangers thing. That it is nothing more than two sets of rival fans having a go at each other.
From what has been posted here in the last couple of days it is clear that is not the case. The more fans of different clubs who follow suit the better.
Homunculus 16th December 2015 at 9:21 pm #As a Celtic supporter I think it is very important that the supporters of other clubs lead the way in contacting their own clubs and letting them know what the fans in general feel about recent developments.
==========================================================
Homunculus…may I use your suggestion that “other clubs lead the way in contacting their won clubs” and refer them to the approach taken by Amnesty International, who had a campaign of letter writing, whereby members would write to relevant head(s) of state(s) or prime minister(s) to ensure that the relevant matters were brought to their immediate (hopefully!) attention.
The relevant “form” letters were available to download from their website.
May I (respectfully) suggest that SFM may adopt a similar approach?
I would welcome such letter(s)…especially if drafted by the “Court Correspondent”… aka John Clark(e)
The problem with the people running our clubs is they’re all part of the business/political class, that all think the same way.
Since we’re not sitting at the big table with them, we must be too stupid or too lazy. Why listen to us?
However, as the summer of 2012 and this years general election showed we can make a difference in their world.
Let’s not sit on our hands and regret it later.
There is mention of Top Clubs in the various letters to clubs where there is an implication the Govan team is one such. That is to accept the lie.
My own belief is that the accolade of being a top club is something which depends solely on being in the top division on merit, thus it is a title which he can be achieved or lost.
The Govan club has never been a top club, even if the big lie is accepted it is not a top club.
Definition of terms avoids casuistry on behalf of those who would hope that at the top club title is owned by right by the Govan club. if the top club title is achieved on ground size or attendance that is fair enough but like any other definition it needs to be explicit
well i have just seen my reply from AFC, ”dont believe everything you read in the paper”thats it. my post was mainly a copy and paste job to be honest. i did reply. i do hope mr milne will come out and refute the statement,as this and to many others looks like mr milne is flying a kite on mr kings behalf. thanks for the reply ,all the best to you in the xmas and new year.
bobferris 16th December 2015 at 8:11 pm
More and more it becomes apparent that the football fraternity in Scotland are just a bunch of shits. Chairman after chairman, manager after manager including our national team boss. They do not deserve us. Coming close to the tipping point for me and Accies don’t have many fans to lose!
——————
Godmorgen,
Bob, it must boil down to some club chairmen feeling they merely run a business. If the terraces are largely empty, it seems not to matter, as long as they’re fed their ration of money from the great TV gods. The loyalty of a certain number of fans is probably taken as a given, so it’s all about gettng snouts in the corporate trough, and to hell with an over-emphasis on rules. But if the hard-core fans protest or threaten to walk away something might just happen on the governance front.
I kept half an eye on some very lower league cup action in England past couple of nights. Matches between clubs who are not fed by the TV gods, not regularly, at least. To be honest, it’s some of the most fun English football I’ve seen in ages. The vulgar money-driven EPL leaves me stone cold. A Championship game is better entertainment But these small clubs like ‘Whitehawk FC’, who were on last night, are the real thing. The enthusiasm of the fans is great to see. Authentic football can still be found on the outer limits of the professional game!
motor red 17th December 2015 at 4:51 am #well i have just seen my reply from AFC, ”dont believe everything you read in the paper”thats it. my post was mainly a copy and paste job to be honest. i did reply. i do hope mr milne will come out and refute the statement,as this and to many others looks like mr milne is flying a kite on mr kings behalf. thanks for the reply ,all the best to you in the xmas and new year.
========================================
While the reply they sent you may be true in a general sense, it in no way addresses whether or not Milne is quoted accurately, and what prompted him to say it.
I have no idea if SPFL Chairs or CEO’s read this blog, but if they do all I’d like to say is this. If the way ahead is for Rangers to always be on top with capacity crowds, lording it over your club then you are welcome to it. I, like many others, will need to seriously think whether I should spend a penny more on such a corruptly managed product. Of course, should you insist on a proper punishment for Rangers past cheating, and demand a full apology for it, then of course a club like that could be an asset to the league. To summarise though, If you want to just lie there and let Rangers trample all over you, then you’re welcome to it. Why don’t you just hand every trophy to Rangers at the start of the season and be done with it. Better still, perhaps you would be happy playing Rangers at your ground in front of a capacity crowd consisting only of Rangers fans, because that’s the way you’re heading.
Most posters think that the motivation for saving a Rangers at all costs is financial, the Blue Pound, if you will, but the reality does not back that up. The vast majority of clubs are financially far less unsound than they were in 2012, and some have been completely transformed.
It seems to me that the motivation is rather one of “face”.
The SMSM, the clubs, the politicians, the Authorities, all warned of Armageddon and were humiliatingly forced to back down and place Rangers in the lowest tier. Moreover this decision had virtually no deleterious consequences for the clubs, and the game continued.
The only basket case, the only Armageddon, has come at Ibrox where the club is mired in allegations of criminality, is run by a convicted criminal and is subject to the most brutal civil strife ever seen in any Scottish football. Oh yes and is skint and heading for the grubber.
From my experience, when you force the hand of those in power to change truly awful decisions that they have made, even to protect the organisation itself, and then leave these proven incompetents in place you can never get sensible policy again. Every decision is infused with bitterness and hurt and malice, and whilst the humiliated individuals, or their backers remain in post, the you get a culture of defensiveness, self justification, bullying, and an absolute refusal ever to listen to logical argument.
What we are seeing here is the rage of those who have been proven to be wrong, spectacularly, but who have been left in positions of power.
Their own egos, and their own unacknowledged knowledge of their absolute misunderstanding of their own industry has made them incapable of any logical decision making regarding Rangers. Even being dragged into court rooms, watching Sevco crash and burn, and seeing the finances of clubs improve has not changed the mindset.
If the clubs, and the authorities persist in the madness of promoting Rangers as the central core of the future of Scottish football, then the only future is one of decline into pantomime and irrelevance, forever coated in disgrace and humiliation.
Still better that than admit the bampots got it right!
Iceman, for me, you hit the nail on the head.
It is a case of the ” Empire strikes back”,the only route to survival they can identify. You are especially correct when you say they are skint. However the words “going concern” seem to have been deleted from their vocabulary.
Well said sir !
iceman63 17th December 2015 at 7:17 am
Well said sir.
oddjob 17th December 2015 at 7:33 am
The mention of gong concern was something that crossed my mind the other day.
The other year we had T’Rangers’ accounts signed off on the basis of assured director funding that by all accounts disappeared shortly after.
This year we have the annual going concern warnings on the basis of DCK and the 3 Bears stumping up the required £2.5m to keep the lights on. Would the accounts been signed off and the company been given a ‘cleanish’ bill of health had the auditors known about plans to pay off the £5m loan.
Maybe that was taken care of elsewhere in the accounts by acknowledging the debt but it just looks like accountancy trickery and book cooking by the board to me.
Excellent post Iceman63
I agree Milnes comments this year are odd given his club have now transformed their finances and had a level of success on the pitch they might not have had if those clubs mentioned had been in the Premiership. At this time last year at their AGM he said something similar regarding Hearts, Hibs and Rangers playing in the top division:
“Hopefully that happens sooner rather than later. It would be easier to attract sponsorship back to our game with these clubs in the Premiership. It makes it an easier sell if we have all the major clubs competing in the same division.”
I don’t remember the same level of outrage (polite and with a small o) then and I wonder if we’re being a bit harsh on Stewart Milne? I thought his comments came from the Aberdeen AGM or something club related rather than an interview with the press to specifically talk about how we all miss Rangers. Oh, and Hibs too. Obviously.
I don’t think this is some sort of Level5 propaganda push to return Rangers to ‘their rightful place’. Just because King visited Hampden and sent out a few letters doesn’t mean this is part of a wider conspiracy. He simply does not have that influence.
Stephen Thompson backing reconstruction but not until 2017. the DR claiming that “Thompson’s assessment is being backed by sources inside Hampden, who claim there is no chance of reconstruction in the summer”
Brilliant post iceman63.
dear, up the hoops. i suggest you reign it in a bit, where have i ever suggested that i would like to see my club roll over?. if you think for one moment this is my position your are very very deeply mistaken. my dislike for the sfa and the govan club probably goes deeper than yours.like most aberdonians , we never wanted milne and has been a hinderence in the most part, for our club going forward. am sure others must be looking in and thinking whats up with hoops? very strange. anyway,i shall forgive you for your outrageous comments and shall remain militant until i see justice just like you. btw. in aberdeen our hatred of all things red white and blue cannot be underestimated and perhaps goes even deeper than some celtic fans could ever possibly imagine. this is not about my dislike for all things red,white and blue of course. this is about what they represent and the complicit sfa being held in contempt of our game. we dont need division mr hoops at this time we need to remain unified towards the one goal.please read carefully in future, no harm done.
iceman63 17th December 2015 at 7:17 am
‘…What we are seeing here is the rage of those who have been proven to be wrong, spectacularly, but who have been left in positions of power.’
________
We are also seeing the general memberships of two inter-related associations of small-to-medium sized enterprises allowing themselves to abdicate any responsibility for the honest administration of the ‘industry’ in which their businesses operate.
They have been unwise in allowing their elected Boards, over the years, an almost unchecked power to act as if they were not at all accountable to them, and they have allowed those Boards to appoint (and keep in office) ‘CEOs’ of doubtful competence, and, perhaps, of doubtful understanding of the concepts of ‘sporting competition’, ‘sporting merit’, and ‘sporting integrity. ‘
The whole of Scottish Football knows, not just ‘thinks’, but KNOWS, that great violence was done to the credibility of the professional game in this wee country of ours by our most abjectly cowardly and/or perverted Football Administrators.
And our clubs know that as well.
They must now see and understand that there is no logic in the attempt to ‘save’ their ‘sport’ by rejecting the very essence of sport and allowing falsification of records of achievement by a competitor trading on the name and character of a now liquidated former competitor.
They cannot, in the longer term, save themselves from betrayal of their personal integrity or save their ‘business’ integrity, by cheating- any more than SDM’s monstrous cheating saved his RFC.
I am always one for caution with regard to the conspiracy theories and the likes and continue to say T’Rangers will survive in one form or another as there are enough folk out there to keep it on life support.
However just for a giggle, could all the talk of reconstruction be to have things sorted for 2017/18 as mentioned by Steven Thompson so that, if required, an insolvency event at Ibrox can be dealt with while in the lower division. A cover all bases approach, if you like.
As it stands a 15 point drop would only place T’Rangers into 4th place and still in play-off contention with the potential to be promoted on merit.
25 points would put them in 7th or 8th but still with a chance of getting a play-off spot, alebit it depends on who is left on the park.
Far better to bite the bullet now than being in the top flight next season with a weakened side trying to make up a -15 or -25 point deficit from day one.
Plead with the fans to support the club through Administration and access funds sitting in the various groups bank accounts to see the season out and take stock for 2016/2017.
Throw DCK under the bus (the rest can use the old Govan ‘I was duped’ excuse re his promise of over-investment) , try and work with Ashley and his deals to get on with a proper restructuring of the club based on a solid rebuilding job with good foundations and decent long terms aims as opposed to spin and bluff.
By the time 2017/18 comes along then they will get back in the top flight either way. (Maybe!!)
Interesting that you got a reply. My inbox remains empty bar for the automated “thank you”.
It is however difficult not to believe what was printed by the EE, given that the only statements we have heard from the Aberdeen board over the past few years have generally been similar vaguely supportive soundbites about getting the “top” teams back into the Premiership.
What would be great is rather than having to feed off tittle-tattle printed in newspapers, which the club claim ago be untruths, is if the club released an official statement. In fact, why don’t the collective 12 top clubs fall in behind a joint statement, or better still the full 41 SPFL clubs release a full statement. God knows the “1” other club has released plenty! That way we can all know exactly what to believe and not have to second guess what is going on behind the closed doors of the boardrooms.
Assuming we can trust the boards to tell us the truth any more than we can trust SMSM – that’s what happens when authorities have been shown to be corrupt… your customers simply stop trusting everyone in a position of power.
Are AFC more afraid of upsetting TRFC fans or their own? Seems that way, a boycott of TRFC fans ain’t going to do any harm to AFC this year, so whats the loss? As pointed out by a fellow bampot (I forget who, sorry) TRFC fans have already made it perfectly clear that they will attempt a boycott of all clubs they deem to have stuck the boot in to the mighty (T)RFC – so again what’s to lose? All Milne et al are doing is building up even more distrust and anger with their apparent lack of activity.
The clubs collectively have the power, not Doncaster or Regan – but the clubs also have to realise they only have that power because we the fans (or customers if they prefer) have the ultimate power in that we decide what to spend our £s on. Once we decide not to spend it on football, they will have a helluva job getting us back.
Iceman63.
I agree to a point. The SPL (as was) sans Hibs Hearts and RFC was a harder sell to broadcasters, particularly those with advertising space to sell. I don’t need to be Neil Doncaster or even Stewart Milne to see that. But you have to start from the premise that they dropped out on merit and will have to re-ascend (in two cases at least
) on the same basis. Adopt that principle from the off and I personally don’t believe you lose a single fan more than you would have done in the first place. However the game is losing fans hands over fist as it is as the xbox age replaces the pies and Bovril flat cappers (ok I’ve taken the stereotype too far but you get the point). “The major clubs” being in the top league helps the attendances of the major clubs. No argument. Do they help the overall level of fan interest?
Well, within that there is also a bit of a shift as some make hay given the absence of others; AFC, Caley Thistle and StJ being three that spring immediately to mind in terms of new found silverware. Ask AFC how easy it is to sell under 18 season tickets now, to 10 years ago. A smaller scale admittedly but I suspect Inverness and St J would say the same. Is it good for the game that the small clubs with four figure attendances do this to the exclusion of the five figure crowd ones? No. Not from a broadcasting point of view. Is it fair? As long as the symptoms of the major clubs malaise were self inflicted which to varying degrees they were, then yes, absolutely. And that should remain the over-riding principle on which the game is built. Unless I see a tv contract that tells me that without the “major club” bias it doesn’t exist, it is not sustainable, it simply disappears up its own. But of course we don’t see it (the contract), we are expected to take the word of the authorities for that.
And that is where the problem remains.
hello tayred. i think hoops seen red when i said i was given a reply,one that perhaps he didnt like, well he is not the only one. i sent my post through malcom paton and all he said was,”dont believe all you read in the papers”. am very much the honest type and my word is good ,am merely the messenger here. like i said am not happy with this either.i believe you are correct that milne does seem to side with the establishment.in the meantime, here’s a song i wrote and performed. enjoy.https://youtu.be/0y5QxnyjWMM
Apologies – having problems with the phone and paragraph spacing! Must try harder.
incredibleadamspark 17th December 2015 at 8:34 am #
“I don’t think this is some sort of Level5 propaganda push to return Rangers to ‘their rightful place’. Just because King visited Hampden and sent out a few letters doesn’t mean this is part of a wider conspiracy. He simply does not have that influence.”
——————————————————————————————————
I was going to post something similar last night. A lot appears to be being assumed on the back of the secret Hampden meet. Is it really the place for a secret meeting? Remember DCK’s favourite game is deflection, divide, and conquer.
I doubt they read KDS, so who tipped off Wilson and the camera crew?, DCK?…. ND?…..Both?
All that is known about it, is that DCK has made great copy of it since. As I posted previously, they even know themselves that a “leak” has more credibility than anything that comes directly from their mouths. Stay alert gentlemen.
Hi Motor red.
Not doubting what you say at all. My mail wasn’t sent to a particular email address. To be honest I really wasn’t expecting to get a reply, nor did I really expect anyone to get a reply! My hope was the sheer weight of responses would make them sit up and realise what a shoogly peg they were hanging everything off of.
Milne is driven by money. I would say I think a large section of the AFC support do need to accept that without him we would have faced severe, potentially fatal, financial difficulties. We do owe him a debt of gratitude for that. His attachment to the pound is however also his biggest weakness, and I think it is that that has led to this almost complete distrust of him within the AFC support (the claim that he only got involved so he can build houses on Pittodrie being the prime example).
A wee post for any ‘Spiral’ fans (The French TV drama ‘Engrenages’ – translated to ‘gears’ or ‘cogs’) …….or even those who like a we conspiracy theory.
Spiral shows the inner workings and corruption within the French legal system. From Cops to Courts to Judges to Ministers, the effect of decisions made and their consequences. Anyone would be aware that this ‘corruption’ can transfer to any other industry or authority where the currency is self gain or to save ones own skin.
There is a twist in Season Four, episode 11 & 12, in which the long serving ‘Le Judge’ Roban, an honest and determined fellow, is pursuing a fellow justice, Judge Garnier for his ‘misdemeanours’ which include; bribery, coercion with criminals,falsification of documents and false imprisonment. You get the picture……. Well as it turns out Judge Roban is sanctioned and stripped of his status for having the temerity to challenge the ‘system’, bringing disrepute to the Justice System.
It appears Garnier has friends in high places.
Roban, shocked to the core, is made even more determined to see that justice prevails. He digs further and further, finds out more and more, his search for justice embroils him…… he is obsessed! (a term we have heard many times of late).
He is invited, by his boss Machard (the Justice Minister, himself not free of tarnish) to a gathering of ‘gentlemen’ from various high echelons within Parisian society.
Roban looks lightly at the event but is suspicious of the intentions of his boss. He stays to listen to what they have to say. He leaves with his conscience intact.
Roban finally puts together his appeal and presents it to the Lord Justice. This is read in private as it lays bare the corruption within the system. The lord Justice retires to read over the documents and on his return to the Courtroom, admonishes Judge Roban. His status is returned. Hooray!!
This was an appeal for Judge Roban’s reputation to be reinstated, not to prove that Judge Garnier was a crook. Strangely, nothing further is mentioned.
On returning to his office in the Justice Buildings, Roban is uncomfortable with the amount of goodwill and gestures (from before unseen people within the Justice Buildings) that are put toward him. Congratulations of his restored reputation, pats on the back and handshakes all round.
Is this because he took on the might of the Justice System? To prove corruption? Are there more like-minded people that he had previously thought were part of the ‘system’.?
There is an encounter with Machard in which he explains that his meeting with the ‘gentlemen’ went very well. They were impressed by his integrity. Machard eulogises his ‘good word’ and ‘friendly handshake’
Roban is shocked! Machard goes on to suggest that Roban’s victory over Garnier was all the Freemasons’ doing, rather than his diligence and determination for justice winning through.
Roban’s response was swift. “But I am not a Freemason, I have no interest in Freemasons or gentlemen’s clubs”. (words to that effect)
Before Machard leaves in disbelief he reminds Roban of the gentleman’s rules implicated……that Freemasons must assist a fellow Freemason or seek “the assistance of the Square”……….
Roban is left to question himself. Did honest labour and a desire to do the right thing win the day? or was it some gentleman’s club back room deal that somehow saw him as a future player in their gang?
I’m certain we all feel we have more honest people like Roban in our Justice System. Is it a forlorn hope that we have that in our Football Authorities too…….?
Vive La Roban! I say……
Smugas 17th December 2015 at 9:47 am
As you rightly say the TV money men may have baulked at a top flight without certain teams. However that was at a time when the SPL and the SFL were negotiating two separate contracts.
With the SPFL a deal can now be struck to cover all teams within the four leagues. Therefore you can always attract an audience for games involving clubs with the largest supports – Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs, then the two from Dundee.
Therefore you have a core audience of armchair and non-away game attendees regardless of what division the club is playing in.
What is missing if those teams are in different divisions in the potential for a combined audience and ‘outside interest’ to watch a ‘big match’.
Given the nature of the new SPFL with a decent strategy there is no reason why the powers that be can’t negotiate a decent deal regardless of what teams are in what division.
You forget what some might interpret as a shere unwillingness to do so and to use said expected lack of result to support a return to the ‘Aye Been.’
Tayred. Agree 100% re Milne. I’m reminded of Alan Sugar telling the story when he was underwriting Spurs of Spurs fans screaming at him **** sake Sugar, that’s another £20 m you’ve wasted on utter crap! I’m glad the Donalds (new version!) have now shouldered some of the burden.
Today marks 20 days since the AGM announcement that the £50M loan would be repaid [loud cheers!].
And in the subsequent interview with Dave King…
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/1333942-rangers-to-pay-back-5m-loan-to-mike-ashley-dave-king-tells-agm/
“the money will be available immediately”
“it’s just a question of the legal transfer”
“we’ll tell them right now the money’s there, it’s in the bank”
Then a very prescient question:
“Do you anticipate any problems”
My sympathies have been with the Aberdeen supporters this week (despite Saturday’s result
) after the reports of their chairman’s words, embarrassing can’t come close to describing them.
It is time that all those enjoying the delights of football club boardrooms realised that there’s a lot more to ‘connecting with the fans’ than mere fluffy mascots and frequent ‘behind the scenes’ updates. It is time they realised they have to empathise with the supporters in their demands for a fair and honest game, where being ‘big’ offers no more advantage than having more bums on seats with the additional revenue that brings. That’s it, advantage over, if you mess it up, tough!
It is time they (the boards) asked themselves who, or what, matters more to them – their own supporters, or a ‘big’ club with a dubious promise of extra revenue? And I don’t mean ‘who means more financially?’ I mean who means more to them, who is important to them as people? Who would they rather talk football with?
It’s time that the chairman of a club like Aberdeen realised that the day a club representing ‘Rangersness’ sits above Aberdeen in the Premiership, is the time he, and his club’s supporters, start talking about the ‘good old days’ when there was only one ‘big’ club from Glasgow to worry about!
It is time they asked themselves what will happen should ‘Rangersness’ end up ‘in their rightful place*’ and once again start spouting off about being ‘too big’, not just ‘big’, for Scottish football and seek membership of the English League? Believe me, Mr Milne, should that ever happen, the ‘big two’ will syphon off even more of the potential Aberdeen support, and every other club’s support, and you will then see how your cowardly (in)actions have helped Aberdeen!
It is time they remembered what David Murray said when he had the opportunity to act for the benefit of Scottish football and save Airdrie FC, but didn’t; ‘it’s business’. David Murray, now he was good for Scottish football!
It is time they asked themselves – ‘do I really want to be seen to align myself with an unrepentant criminal?’ Genuinely, what self respecting businessman wouldn’t take every opportunity to distance himself from such as Dave King?
My apologies to Aberdeen supporters if it appears that I am picking on their club, particularly in light of motor red’s reply from the club. Hopefully the club will expand on this response publicly and save you further embarrassment. In the meantime, I hope that that embarrassment galvanises the support into even more action. Just like SFM you could become a shining light and set the tone for what’s to follow should any other club chairpersons support, or allow themselves to appear to support, the jerrymandering of Scottish football!
* Their rightful place could accurately be described as ‘in liquidation’ but I am using their warped belief system to make a point.
redetin 17th December 2015 at 10:59 am #
Today marks 20 days since the AGM announcement that the £50M loan would be repaid
————————-
Who gave them the other 45M?
I think that upthehoops might have been misread by tayred, he was referring to the hypothetical ramblings of Chairman Milne not the thought of the supporters if I have got him right.
it needs to be remembered that there is a difference between sleeping “giants” and dead “giants” if there are any sleeping Giants in the lower leagues they do not play in blue. The recalibration of the past five years has been good and produced many memorable moments for t’diddies long may it continue
Getting away from the continuing saga of one Club there is a rather good read on Stand Free today entitled “Why Are Attendances So Low?”
http://www.stand-free.com/articles/why-are-attendances-so-low/
No Govan-based Clubs are mentioned in this article.
Madbhoy24941 17th December 2015 at 11:29 am
It should of course be £5.0M (+ interest + default conditions)
Who gave them the other 45M?
——-
My bad
I have yet to send my own missive to Mr Milne. I have been rather busy this week but also wanted to address the issue of the Blue Pound in a sensible manner.
Notwithstanding the relative improvement in the financial health of AFC since 2012, as far as I can see the economic impact of having a “Rangers” in the premier league is negligible.
On the plus side you have 1 or 2 home fixtures that will have a slightly higher attendance at £25 x (say) 3,000 that’s £75,000 per match.
Offset against that would be the additional policing costs that accompanied a visit from Rangers and would surely also apply to Sevco and the necessary stadium repairs (broken seats, etc) that usually follow. At first glance the net benefit from two home fixtures would struggle to be a 6-figure sum.
If “normal service” were resumed in terms of league placings then there would be potential loss of revenue from prize money and European football.
I don’t see any strong financial case for a non-merit based fiddling of promotion and/or restructuring. Why would a Club with Revenue over £11 million be gagging for an extra £100k.
TDK,
Never expected to see a reference to ‘Spiral’ on SFM!
Big fan and yet to catch up on my box set of series 4 so merci beaucoup pour le ‘spoiler’!
Merde et double merde!
Great analogy though
The wisdom
of Archie Knox, from the Evening Times-
http://m.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/14150180.King_urged_to_back_Warburton_with_fresh_funds_to_strengthen_faltering_Rangers/
The pressure is definitely building for a franchise system. That’s what all the “heid bummers” clearly want.
Which I think I have just demonstrated, in my earlier post, is a load of Rafael.
zerotolerance1903 17th December 2015 at 12:08 pm #Knox said: “The whole of the Premier League will be keeping their fingers crossed Rangers win the title and Hibs win promotion. They will get bigger games, larger crowds and more money if that happens.
Which I think I have just demonstrated, in my earlier post, is a load of Rafael.
*****
I don’t have it, but Corsica presented a spreadsheet analysis on RTC that was based (IIRC) upon 5 years of attendances across the SPL. It clearly showed that the death of Rangers could easily be financially mitigated by a small/reasonable increase in weekly attendance figures at all SPL clubs apart from Celtic (who would lose 5k bums on seats per week IIRC). My recollection is that “smaller” clubs such as Motherwell only needed a couple of hundred extra per week to mitigate Rangers’ death whereas the “bigger” clubs like Hearts & Aberdeen needed a couple of thousand. In all cases, the numbers were eminently achievable and have largely (I think) been achieved.
Corsica also presented an analysis showing how a reduction in ticket prices would impact. Again, the numbers were achievable but I have less recollection of this.
I think Auldheid might have done something similar alongside a St Johnstone? fan (based in Far East?) who did particularly excellent work on TV revenues. All of which might be recoverable from RTC.
Knox said: “The whole of the Premier League will be keeping their fingers crossed Rangers win the title and Hibs win promotion. They will get bigger games, larger crowds and more money if that happens.
—————————————————————————————–
Is the so called blue pound only good in the top league do the other divisions not need the blue pound. The top league has not missed TRFC, the fans IMO have not missed TRFC, the football teams have not missed TRFC (especially the wons that won trophies and qualified for Europe). Several clubs have declared themselves debt free (not liquadated as predicted in armaggedon days of yore) so they seem not to have missed the blue pound. Only the smsm and the SFA miss them for what ever reason.
There is something in the air and we can all smell it because it stinks. We said no before and NO will be said again. The entries over the past few days on here have been excellent and shows the general feelings of all fans, if CEO’s of all clubs ignore this or make statements like Mr Milne then they should not be in their positions.
We PAY to support our clubs, we matter and all we want is a fair sport and any clubs who do not play fairly have to be punished (and normally are outside Govan). Why is this so difficult to obtain? One club (well maybe be a few versiond of it) is trying to kill our game and it is being aided to do so, why? Blue pound really???
You have to shake your head in disbelief at both ,the team from Govan and the excuse for sports reporters,after their draw against Morton we are subjected to guff from KMiller and co about how they held an enquiry into their performance and really beat themselves up about it,did it not occur to them that Morton let a lead slip and with it a much valued win bonus probably,no,the people think they are the only ones that where involved in the game,by all accounts they seemed lucky to snatch a draw ,if they continue with believing there own guff then hell mend them if they go up,there will be enquiries nearly every week,apart from International weekends,I think there would be more of a story in where the man with the magic hat was hiding or even his assistant,to have the players that played in the draw discuss where the tactics went wrong is to me ,point the finger at the coaching staff,they set the game plan out,nothing to do with the opposition being able to read there opponents game and getting it right ,well let’s hear the excuses from the next two games,these could be a season changer and the man with the hat accepting one of his many offers from down south.
mungoboy at 12:02 pm
sincères excuses à mon ami
I’m starting season 5 so will remain in confidence
How many blue pounds does it take to remove any thoughts of sporting integrity, honesty or just the desire to win a trophy, from the chairman of a Scottish football club? How many blue pounds will each club receive from a renewed TV deal with ‘Rangersness’ built into it? We know for certain it will never be as much as those with a desire to see TRFC in the top flight would have us believe before the deal is done. It will be touted, without a figure, as some giant increase, ignoring the fact that the SPFL were pathetic pushovers, at best, or deliberately downplaying Scottish football (they certainly downplayed it) to exaggerate the ‘loss’ as a result of the demise of an institution, when previously negotiating. I wouldn’t be surprised if an arrangement to increase the payment, on the return of a ‘Rangers’, was inbuilt into the previous deal, hence the insulting ‘agreement’ that was accepted.
To counter the blue pound excuse: I wonder how many new young supporters each club within the SPFL has gained as a result of the demise of ‘Rangersness’? With no thoughts of Mr Milne’s statement, I wonder how many youngsters Santa will deliver Aberdeen strips and merchandise to, that would otherwise be asking for a ‘Rangers’ top, if TRFC were a Premiership club as opposed to an over-hyped lower league title buyers?
Increased club merchandise should be factored into any discussions on the ‘advantages’ of the blue pound, for you don’t have to be a sales expert to know that your team being one place higher in the league than it might otherwise be, induces the desire to buy another top, or scarf, or maybe just a pencil, with the club’s badge on it, and not just in the youngsters!
Back on the effect of Mr Milne’s statement. I wonder how many Aberdeen tops have not been bought as a result of his ‘selling the integrity’? Or maybe parents that have gone into the Aberdeen store and bought the strip or scarf their child asked for, but don’t even consider looking at anything else because they are so disgusted by what was said – in their name!
We may never know the full extent of the benefits having no ‘Rangersness’ has brought to Scottish football’s top division, but whatever it is, we can be sure that those extolling the blue pound would wish it ignored!
BP, really professional way to go about your ‘job’. More professional, it seems, than many of the clubs you’ve contacted. I wonder, though, if some of them thought you were seeking to ask some awkward questions, perhaps about a certain letter
I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they are more than a little afraid of SFM, or any media outlet looking for something more than PR or likely to disseminate their club’s PR!
Chelsea linked with a move for Rangers Manager Warbutton,breaking news
Red hot news.
Warbo odds on favourite for Chelsea job.
Etc etc.
Well L5 will punt this story anyway,they need as many squirrels as possible out there.
Allyjambo 17th December 2015 at 3:08 pm #How many blue pounds does it take to remove any thoughts of sporting integrity, honesty..
===================
The answer to that opening part in isolation seems to be a negative number as far as the governing bodies go.
I have a couple of speculative reasons why our top division’s ‘smaller’ teams are now doing so well (cf. sustained, better gates): with there being only one ‘giant’ club in the division they are now (a) getting a better shot at the silverware and the glory that goes with it, and (b) because they play a maximum of 4 league ties against the surviving ‘giant’, they need only expect to be gubbed a maximum of 4 times a season (and most – for all sorts of reasons – are avoiding even that).
In the crazy days of the ‘Old Firm’ financial arms race (unlikely to be seen again in any of our lifetimes), smaller teams found themselves exposed to the possibility of a hiding every 4 or 5 weeks (on average), depending on the fixture list, and so found it difficult to build up any genuine form.
Only having to face one ‘giant’ thereby doubles a smaller team’s chances of stringing together that elusive series of good results.
The following remark should of course be heavily qualified, but I’d also venture to suggest that if Sevco survive the season and manage to be promoted, I’d say they’d be no different to the rest of the ‘smaller’ teams in the division, with respect to the likelihood of receiving a caning from the surviving giant.
Just a thought.
Wabs’ input to league construction hidden away on the web
http://asia.eurosport.com/football/mark-warburton-change-only-possible-if-chairmen-accept-short-term-income-drop_sto5031531/story.shtml
Reading between the lines I doubt there is much of a warchest going to be available in January. Make do with what you have and blood the youngsters looks like the plan.
Wrt to any further assistance to aid TRFC’s entry into the top league…
Let’s take a worst case scenario.
TRFC is promoted, and at their every away game there is a hostile atmosphere, and possibly trouble inside and outside the ground.
Ibrox becomes a fortress, and all visiting teams are subjected to even more hostile treatment, offensive/illegal singing.
Basically the SPFL games involving TRFC become poisonous affairs with associated trouble.
Police and politicians eventually speak out – and maybe even the SMSM comment on how the SPFL has deteriorated.
Will this be the catalyst for Regan and Doncaster to go, and for some real structural change at the SPFL/SFA ?
Will it have to get so bad that Hampden just can’t look the other way anymore ?
Maybe a subsequent threat of withdrawn public funding might force the issue ?
Does anyone believe that the first season with TRFC in the top league is going to be a positive experience for all concerned ?
Good job BP.
It’s no effort to add SFM – or any other website for that matter – to their distribution list.
And nobody would consider that a club is ‘endorsing’ any of the recipients. So what is the risk ?
You would think the clubs would appreciate – and be grateful for – wider coverage of their communications ?
Keep at them BP…they’ll eventually learn…I hope…
So how would this 16 team league work then?
Everyone plays each other home and away for 30 fixtures, and then what? More split nonsense? Top 8/Bottom 8 for 37 matches?
Please no.
wottpi 17th December 2015 at 3:38 pm #Wabs’ input to league construction hidden away on the web
http://asia.eurosport.com/football/mark-warburton-change-only-possible-if-chairmen-accept-short-term-income-drop_sto5031531/story.shtml
Reading between the lines I doubt there is much of a warchest going to be available in January. Make do with what you have and blood the youngsters looks like the plan.
================
Opening the warchest would only upset the balance and spirit in the squad, or whatever the excuse was in the last transfer window when John Eustace wasn’t signed.
John James claiming a good source is telling him that BDO’s leave to appeal has been refused. I will therefore work on the assumption that it will be granted.
No surprise there but for some reason the The Pogue’s “Fiesta” started playing in my head.
BP,
Re securing press releases from clubs…..how about creating a page on SFM that faithfully reproduces said press releases?
This would ensure wide exposure of clubs’ news and views without the editing, distortion and downright ignoring of topics deemed unsuitable by the SMSM.
Pitching that kind of ‘mass market’ (compared to club-only websites) exposure to PR people might be more attractive than just asking for a copy of the press release.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/questions-from-a-foreign-country/#more-7151
latest from phil
motor red 17th December 2015 at 9:20 am #dear, up the hoops. i suggest you reign it in a bit, where have i ever suggested that i would like to see my club roll over?
==========================
Motor Red, just getting the chance to respond.
My post was not directed at you or any other Dons fan. It was an attempt to communicate with those SPFL Chairs and CEO’s who may on the off chance read this blog. Apologies if it came over any other way. My main point is if they all fall over themselves for Rangers the way Stewart Milne appears to be, then Rangers will be all they have left. The Rangers fans through their misplaced anger against all other clubs will back their team in great numbers. If those in charge of the other clubs expect THEIR fans to ignore the ridiculous finger of blame the Rangers fans are pointing then there will in my view be a significant number who will walk away and maybe never return.
They should be very careful what they wish for, because it might just come true.
wottpi 17th December 2015 at 8:31 am
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/questions-from-a-foreign-country/#more-7151
Nice to see Phil Mac adding some meat to the bones I dug up earlier this morning.
yourhavingalaugh
paul murray has said on sky that they have the whole £5 million(again)lawyers have it to deposit lol
just seen on stv news that shareholders will have to stump up for january signings,just after murray says they are well funded lol
Extracted from DR article today;
“…The Rangers director says that while the QC in last week’s court case made a mistake in saying it was paid back already, he says it will be repaid when the right documentation is in place.
Talking to STV Murray said: “First of all to clear up what happened in court last week, that was just a simple mistake which was made by our QC. He didn’t have the facts to his fingertips.”…
==========================
Hmmm.
So Murray is publicly stating that a highly paid – and probably quite bright – QC just ‘made a wrong assumption’ [?] that the GBP5M had been repaid – when in fact it hadn’t ?
Would anyone – never mind a QC – make a statement like that – and in court – unless they had reliable proof / reassurances which they could trust ?
I smell sh…
Great idea for SFM to make a donation to Yorkhill. My addition to the total has been sent.
So the £5m is in the bank now (c P.Murray)- but of course it was also in the bank on the morning of the AGM 3 weeks ago (c D King). I wonder where that £5m has been in the meantime? Perhaps the press could ask? Certainly £500k went walkabout between the AGM and the recent court hearing. You would think some keen young journalist would be all over that like a rash- but oops, I forgot, this is Scotland.
Apparently, a blatant lie was told at the AGM regarding the £5m. But not a single journalist will so much as ask the obvious question. All swept under the carpet, which must be a big one, since it has to cover up all the sins of the post, while the rest of just move on.
As for potless Paul’s latest, about the barrister making a mistake in court, we are truly descending into farce at that point. Between a QC being misdirected by his clients, and a QC just making stuff up in court, I know where my money is sitting. That QC will not be a happy soldier this evening, that’s for sure, having been publicly traduced by a clown like Murray. Reputation is everything for a barrister. Being represented as a bumbling fool by your client is about as bad as it gets. I expect Murray to issue a retraction very soon.
Interesting that McMurdo Major is over on JJ stating that there were more clubs than RFC ‘at it’ regarding contract/salary declarations to the SFA & that it will all be swept under the carpet, because not to do just that would bring the SFA down. He also plays the ‘Sooper’ card, that he knows names & clubs.
He’s been told to put up or shut up by one poster. I won’t hold my breath for the first to occur.
‘Ratufa macroura macroura’, IMO.
essexbeancounter 16th December 2015 at 9:13 pm #
Thanks. I’m here all week….