LNS is currently back in the headlines. It might therefore be a good time to try to set out a timeline describing correspondence we had with the representatives of the authorities over discrepancies and anomalies that appeared to have arisen. None of this is necessarily predicated upon the recent findings of the CoS in the Big Tax Case, but stands on its own.
Back in February 2014 The Scottish Football Monitor wrote to Harper MacLeod, the law firm that the SPL had engaged to gather evidence for the Lord Nimmo Smith (LNS) Commission investigating the full and proper registration of players paid by Rangers Football Club under Employee Benefit Trust (EBT) arrangements.
The initial set-up of the LNS Commission on 5th March 2012 by the SPL (View File) charged LNS with a look at EBTs from 1st July 1998 (when the SPL came into being).
In practice though, the Commission only looked at EBTs from 23 November 2000 onwards.
This change of date was based on the earliest side letter supplied by Duff and Phelps, although Harper MacLeod had requested ALL documentation from 1998 to March 2012 relating to ALL EBTs.
This prompted a series of letters to Harper MacLeod from The Scottish Football Monitor, although Harper MacLeod’s replies failed to address the issues raised.
The passage of time blurs memories but this archive is designed to remind readers of those blogs and correspondence, and the key points contained in them.
It also highlights the apparent inability or unwillingness on the part of the SPL and SFA to engage with us in any meaningful way.
NB: The SFA were informed of our correspondence by Harper MacLeod in October 2014.
It is extremely difficult to be concise in this situation. There are various strands of argument and details seemingly small, but vitally important – however the following is an attempt to make the material accessible and provides links to the relevant files in chronological order (links are in green).
- Item 1: The first SFM letter of 19th February 2014 to Harper MacLeod
- Item 2: The Annexes containing the documents apparently not supplied to Harper Macleod in the spring of 2012 along with other pertinent information about the testimony given to LNS during the Commission.
- Item 3: The SFM response of 29 March 2014 to Harper MacLeod’s reply to the first letter.
- Item 3.1: An SFM analysis of Harper MacLeod’s initial reply attached to response at 3.
- Item 4: An SFM blog of 5th September pointing out how the documents not supplied had a direct impact on the advice given to the SPL Board to accept The Decision of The LNS Commission.
- Item 5: The last letter of 4th October 2014 to Harper MacLeod answering points raised by them (see next) and thanking them for passing our correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer who has so far deigned not to reply.
- Item 5.1: Harper MacLeod’s actual response to SFM 5th September letter.
- Item 6: An SFM Blog (Inc. a transcript of an interview between Alex Thomson and Stewart Regan).
- Item 6.1: Truncated version of above blog.
- Item 7: A clearer extract of key document from Item 2 Annexes
Having no locus to demand answers from the SPL or the SFA, all we can do is provide information – information that we believe presents a prima facie case that LNS was deeply flawed even before the latest developments in the Tax Case came to light. The challenge for us is this: what can we do about it?
It is clear from the meagre response we have received that the authorities are unwilling to engage with us, so it is fair to assume that further correspondence will be met with the same lack of response.
Are we merely a bunch of obsessed nut-jobs with our own take on the Flat Earth conspiracy? If that is the case, surely a few words of explanation to dispel our doubts would have had traction with the rest of the football public. Indeed the lack of any reply undoubtedly serves as confirmation of our belief that something may be seriously wrong.
The questions have been posed. The SFA appears to think that not answering them is a wise course of action. Given that anecdotal evidence presents a compelling case that the general football public are widely in agreement with us, are there any journalists out there who will take the time to look at what we have observed and what we seek clarification on?
There are undoubtedly inferences to be drawn from the evidence we have, and from the silence of the authorities.
The statement by Celtic on Friday 13th November is certainly a start in the process we wish to begin, but it only mentions the elephant in the room. It gives no clue about how it could be transported to another place.
In the first instance we at SFM seek only explanations, and despite the inferences mentioned earlier, we are still eager to be satisfied that rules were followed and justice done.
Is there really nobody in the MSM who has the courage to seek the answers we seek? I suspect not. What we do in the absence of that courage is important. We are at a crossroads. Either we give up on the game altogether and spend our Saturdays and Sundays doing other things – or we find a way to get these questions out of blog pages and into the mainstream.
We need an alliance of fans of all clubs to do that, and we will be looking to build that alliance. I would urge fans of all clubs to give this material to fan sites of their own clubs.
These are not just words. There can be no movement on this issue unless our reach is extended. SFM alone does not have the clout required to bring the clubs to the table or the MSM to fair and balanced reporting. We need that alliance of fans desperately. We don’t seek leadership of that alliance – but we are happy to provide it if required.
This is not a campaign to have Rangers punished. I understand that Rangers fans (since their club is in the middle of this mess) are reluctant to see us as anything other than a bunch of Rangers haters.
That is unequivocally not the case from the perspective of the moderators of this blog. SFM is committed to justice, and to the integrity of the sport we all love.
Justice is ON THE SIDE of Rangers and their fans – it does not conspire against them. A growing number of Rangers fans are coming round to our way of thinking and our tone must reflect that. This is not a Celtic or Hearts or Aberdeen or anybody else v Rangers issue. This is a fans v corrupt authorities issue.
We all deserve answers, and hopefully our alliance will compel each individual club to act in the interests of the fans .
The Wolffes are at the door! Run sheep, run I’ll get my coat…===================Well, since you started it…If this couple had taken up sports journalism in Scotland, rather than the law…
would they now be referred to as the ‘Wolffes in sheep’s clothing’ ???
I’ll get my crook…
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So astonished and so angered am I by the description by Roger Mitchell that his SPL role was managing a league in glasgow and talk of working hardest of all to help 2 clubs move to a bigger that I’m not even sure where to begin.
If this sort of talk came from an rival fan, a smug journalist or a particularly arrogant club owner or CEO would be bad enough.
But this is far more astonishing.
The man employed by all the clubs in the SPL has described his role as managing a glasgow league and how he worked for years to get the 2 biggest clubs a move elsehere.
Its gobsmacking. And disgusting.
Our national game really will get no where while there remains the slightest whiff of this narrow minded superiority attitude.
Absolutely no where. Of that I am certain.
If the focus is 2 clubs and the justification is that these 2 clubs have more fans than the rest then why should we ever expect Scottish Clubs or our National team to do ANYTHING on a wider stage, Europe or Internationally.
Why? We are a small nation. Celtic and Rangers are small clubs on the European stage.
When Celtic and Rangers compete in Europe they are diddy clubs in a fact – they can’t compare with the wealth of a long list of others for whatever reason.
But they expect to be given respect when they play in Europe do they not?
Yet their is an attitude of superiority in our game, more fans = better club = more important.
I’m sorry but, if the biggest clubs allow or nurture that sort of disrespect towards smaller clubs within our shores then they deserve only the same sort of derision and disrespect from bigger European clubs when competing abroad.
As for our national game, forget about it. How can such jaded and small minded people ever run a national sport effectively?
I’ll tell you, they simply cannot.
As for the “diddy” clubs standing idly by and allowing these sort of figures to run our game into the ground over the last 30 years. Shame on them all.
I won’t spend a penny more with any of the current incumbents or attitudes in place, they don’t deserve a penny of my money.
http://www.sfmonitor.org/shop
Everybody needs a calendar. Come on folks! £8 including delivery. (It better have a picture of Celtic on it in May or I’m going to be very angry
)
(BTW it takes me about 2 mins. minimum to find a calendar on my phone)
Matty Roth,
Have you read the second instalment from James Forrest how Rangers nearly killed Scottish Football? I thought part 1 was good but part 2 nearly had my blood boiling.
You are obviously angry from a different perspective. But never let that passion die friend.
Calendar & mug already ordered.
I’ve never bought the wife’s Christmas present this early before !
Thanks SFM…
StevieBC 19th November 2015 at 10:08 pm #Calendar & mug already ordered.
I’ve never bought the wife’s Christmas present this early before !
Thanks SFM…
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Lucky wife!
(Honestly laughing out loud)
jimbo 19th November 2015 at 10:02 pm #Matty Roth,
Have you read the second instalment from James Forrest how Rangers nearly killed Scottish Football? I thought part 1 was good but part 2 nearly had my blood boiling.
You are obviously angry from a different perspective. But never let that passion die friend.
2 1 Rate This View Comment
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Jimbo, i’ve not read them but I’m certain I will when i’m ready. I like James writing in the most part and a few posters have already recommended this one.
I find I have to be in the right mind to read or give thought to this stuff now, so sickened am I by the Roger Mitchells, Neil Doncasters, Keith Jacksons, Hugh Keevins’s, Richard Wilsons and Kenny MacIntyres and so on.
Their constant harping on about how we must all quietly bow down to the inevitable and be thankful for the lies we are fed in great quantity is just too much to take most of the time. I honestly don’t know how these guys can sleep at night.
To encourage Nil By Mouth to challenge irresponsibility…
Dear Minister.
(Paul Wheelhouse responsible for Community Safety and Legal Affairs.
On 16th or 17th December The Daily Record published an article by a free lance journalist A Mooney with a message that suggested folk pursuing better football governance in Scotland were driven by a sectarian agenda.
The article prompted me to send the following to Nil By Mouth to question the DR policy of allowing such a message to enter main stream consciousness without taking any responsibility for the article or the consequences if it.
Whilst freedom of the press is a right it does come with responsibilities and using excuses that articles by freelance journos or bloggers absolves the Daily Record from any responsibility appears to me to be a dangerous path to allow unchallenged.
Accordingly I wrote to Nil By Mouth but would like to draw the Minister’s attention to what might be a sinister development in the battle against bigotry that your Government might wish to address.
To Nil By Mouth 18 Nov 2015
I am appalled that the Daily Record have allowed an article to be published by a guest blogger that suggests supporters of other clubs seeking transparency and accountability from the Scottish National Football Association are driven by sectarianism/ hatred of The Rangers Football Club.
The DR appear to be hiding behind the excuse that the views expressed are not the DR’S and so they can wash their hands of any responsibility for turning a matter of good governance into a sectarian issue that will inflame rather than enlighten and inform society.
I believe that this policy of the DR should be raised with them in public to remind them sectarianism and anything that promotes it or uses it to pursue a narrow agenda is simply not acceptable to organisations like yourself.
You may wish to forward to other like organisations, the Churches and Government.
Sent from my Samsung device
Fair enough Matty, I often take some time out from sites. It seems like we hear the same things over and over again. I grow tired of it sometimes, then I get fired up.
It’s why I like posters like JC who never gives up. Just about most days he reminds us what it’s all about.
It’s why I loved the COS outcome, for RTC who posted so many times the truth. Only to be kicked on the you know whats at the FTTT.
One day we will be vindicated. Maybe not in my lifetime. But one day for certain.
Matty Roth,as a Celtic fan I share your anger at Roger Mitchells statement . Dont let a weasel like him and his like get under your skin , its a dirty war they are fighting just now . . Its because of the Roger Mitchells the George Peats the Campbell Ogilvies the Stewart Regans and their like that we are in the mess we are in ! The so called “diddie” clubs ( I personally dont like that expression ) saved us once already and have it in their power to actually save scottish football from this nightmare . I honestly feel the “big” clubs especially Celtic dont have the backbone to see this through . Once again it will be clubs like yours that save the day , if not IMO the fans will gradually give up and walk away. Stay strong and focused
Guys you need to have a look at your ordering process. See my posts in moderation under IF.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/34873287
“Marta Dominguez: Spanish athlete stripped of 2009 world title”
How will the SMSM report this story?
Sorry if it’s up already . Nae luck, Clumps . Keep on Clumping !
https://twitter.com/thefbas
Mark McGee re Rangers (I.L.) payment methods…….Making mischief?….Really?
http://m.heraldscotland.com/sport/14091685.Motherwell_boss_Mark_McGhee_making_mischief_as_he_raises_issue_of_Rangers_EBTs/
jimbo 19th November 2015 at 10:41 pm
‘…..One day we will be vindicated. Maybe not in my lifetime. But one day for certain..’
________
Courage, mon brave!
We are already vindicated-we have truth, simple truth, on our side.
And all the sophistry, all the PR spin, all the gombeen-man’s and the Daily Record’s ‘sectarianisation’ of the issue, does not and cannot change the simple fact:
a football club cheated, not once, or by accident, but on a sustained, season after season , year after year for more than a decade
and cheated , not by some bureaucratic, clerical ‘failure to sign two copies’ of a form, but by deliberate, conscious and chairman-authorised non-disclosure of all payments made to its players.
All done precisely to achieve a sporting advantage over that disgraceful and disgraced club’s sporting AND business competitors.
We know that. The clubs in the SPFL know that as well.
And, as honourable men and women, they will now perforce, and however reluctantly, have to concede the point: the cheat must be dealt with by deprivation of any and all sporting honours dishonourably ‘won’
just as Olympic cheats and Tour de France cheats etc etc are stripped both of their medals and of any ‘honour’ they falsely lay claim to.
Do not despair, therefore. The good, the honourable people in Scottish football governance will prevail, and our game and games will restored to integrity and honour.
And then we can ‘move on’.
In my opinion.
Corrupt Official 20th November 2015 at 1:14 am
We have a football manager of lengthy experience, both at club and national level, stating his club (Motherwell) were denied a higher league place as a result of Rangers cheating.
Today’s Herald headline declares that McGhee is making a “jibe” at Rangers. The Daily Mail wades in with McGhee’s “mischievous pot-shot” at the use of Rangers EBTs.
There was no such spin when Messrs Mitchell and Mooney spouted their tuppenceworth a few days ago. The SMSM are now showing signs of absolute desperation since the Court of Session verdict.
Well done Mark McGhee. I wonder if anyone of a pro-sanctions viewpoint will crawl out from under their stone and ever be allowed to express his or her concerns in the rags?
Billy Boyce 20th November 2015 at 9:04 am #Corrupt Official 20th November 2015 at 1:14 am We have a football manager of lengthy experience, both at club and national level, stating his club (Motherwell) were denied a higher league place as a result of Rangers cheating. Today’s Herald headline declares that McGhee is making a “jibe” at Rangers. The Daily Mail wades in with McGhee’s “mischievous pot-shot” at the use of Rangers EBTs. There was no such spin when Messrs Mitchell and Mooney spouted their tuppenceworth a few days ago. The SMSM are now showing signs of absolute desperation since the Court of Session verdict. Well done Mark McGhee. I wonder if anyone of a pro-sanctions viewpoint will crawl out from under their stone and ever be allowed to express his or her concerns in the rags?
=========================
Is Mark McGhee the first of many, or will it be a lone cry in the wilderness that is the moral and ethical (and, dare I mention it, sporting integrity) desert of Scottish football governance and reporting?
If that’s the worst that the SMSM can come up with, childish name calling, then what’s to stop every other manager or player affected by the decade of cheating from breaking cover and speaking out?
BDO to appeal the EBT decision according to The Herald
Good for Mark McGhee.
Every comment or simple truth stated is worthwhile I think.
It would be nice to see some slightly more thought out and reasoned comment from people in football though. Not just focused on EBT’s or title stripping but actually on the worrying irregularity and scale of it all and all the implications of that.
Jungle Jim
won’t that use up creditors money? seeing as HMRC are one this could be a non starter
Corrupt official 20th November 2015 at 1:14 am
TO STUART COSGROVE
Tam Cowan is a self confessed technophobe so maybe doesn’t check in here.
Stuart Cosgrove does however appear to keep an eye on things and has contributed here in the past.
If your are listening Stuart remind your pal that the current manager of his club and a man he apparently has a lot of time for has raised the EBT issue. While he may be noising up T’Rangers it is clear that a range of people across the game are not going to ‘move on’ from this matter.
As has been said, this is someone with a bit of stature in the game and who is not daft. This then follows on from Celtic’s statement of re-emphasizing their ‘surprise’ at the LNS decision and the blatant ‘sweep sweep’ motion of many a commentator in the SMSM.
As a prominent promoter of diddy teams, their supporters and a promoter of clubs living within their means as your club has, please do not let this matter be airbrushed out of the debate re the current state of Scottish Football.
I understand Off the Ball would be boring if this matter was the headline subject week after week, however the matter cannot be left to drift away in the cold winds of this coming winter.
As I have said previously, for me title stripping is not the Holy Grail but an understandable desire given the level of downright cheating involved. (And they still haven’t paid that fine BTW) However in light of the CoS ruling and after the issue is closed via the Supreme Court or no appeal forthcoming, the footballing authorities must come clean and issue clear and definitive statements (possibly after a full independent review) with regard to their position on the EBT’s and, if possible (given the ongoing court cases) come clean with regard to the 5 Way agreement.
Scottish football is never going to move on until these matters are out in the open.
Please do what you can to keep on top of this issue.
I attended a Q&A at Fir Park on Monday night. The first half was with Mark McGhee and the 2nd half with the Well Society. Tam Cowan was the compere. At the start of proceedings he was outlining what was going to happen and he finished off by saying that at the end of the night we were getting a surprise visit by Alex McLeish and some Rangers players when they would present us with the 2005 League Cup!
So maybe he is constricted by the BBC, or maybe he just feels safer saying these things amongst fellow Motherwell supporters. Either way I agree both he and Stuart Cosgrove need to putting the “alternative” view across as they have on other issues in the past.
The herald article
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14040779.Rangers_oldco_liquidators_set_to_take__Big_Tax_Case__to_a_Supreme_Court_appeal/?ref=arc
Ya beauty. Calendar and mug purchased. Hey wait a minute.Why am I buying my own Christmas presents? Mug right enough.
The Herald is reporting confidently that BDO will seek to appeal the CoS decision to the Supreme Court. We have, of course, to bear in mind the equally confident leaks of “a Rangers victory” in the week before the CoS decision was released. We are in the middle of a PR war, and it’s hard to know who is spinning what, and why, at times.
But let’s take the Herald report at face value. Why would BDO spend creditors money on a Supreme Court appeal? After all, the total available to the creditors will be unaffected (ignoring legal fees)- all that would be affected is the division of the pot between HMRC and the other creditors.
As I understand it, the liquidators have a duty to the creditors as a class, but no specific duty to individual creditors. (someone correct me if I’m wrong on that, please). So, as I understand it, the liquidators duty is to maximise the pot, not to fund action which increases some creditors’ shares at the expense of others.
From that I conclude that if the case is appealed by BDO, then it could only be at the request of HMRC, possibly with an undertaking by them to pay the costs.
Why would HMRC do that? Because it does seem strange on the face of it.
However this EBT decision by the CoS is one that I am sure HMRC would very much like to see confirmed by the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court, because a Supreme Court judgement is binding on every other court in the UK, no ifs, buts or maybes. Only the Supreme Court itself can overturn its own previous decisions, and that is a very rare event indeed.
A victory in the Supreme Court in this case would effectively stop litigation in many other EBT cases, and would doubtless bring in hundreds of millions in tax, interest and penalties.
The Revenue’s legal team will have gone over the CoS judgement in extreme detail, to make sure, so far as possible, that it is watertight, and safe to take to the Supreme Court.
Of course, I have no current inside information on any of this, this is just my speculation based on previous experience of such matters.
neepheid 20th November 2015 at 10:54 am
. 
…..For a group that holds a whopping 2%…Wow !.
“As I understand it, the liquidators have a duty to the creditors as a class, but no specific duty to individual creditors.”
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Would it be possible for Minty to be financing the appeal personally?…. It’s his neck on the line. Tax due on a £6m EBT would buy a fair bit of QC time
But you are right about the SMSM being in full propaganda mode. Although we will find out soon enough. Maybe they are just making mischief
Whatever way it pans out we must be ready to react. Now, or at a later date, and be pro-active in the interim (if there is an interim). There is still the withholding of the DOS scheme.
Here is one from the Telegraph. A full pager about an on-line poll no less
One would think the vote is a “gimme” reading this.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/14091689.Rangers_Supporters_Trust_gives_emphatic_backing_to_Ibrox_club_s_special_AGM_resolutions/?ref=twtrec
Just a small point on the Mcghee mischief that I notice is being totally overlooked (although I can’t access the whole article so maybe I’m being slightly unfair).
I believe he’s talking about season 2007-08 where Motherwell came third behind champions Celtic. So no title stripping required there then. So why would that mischievous diddy have an issue with that year then?
Its not like he lost out on anything? Oh, apart from money. Lots and lots of money. Actual money (prize) the opportunity to gain more money (Europe) the opportunity to benefit further from said money – everything from reduced overheads like interest to player/youth investment and retention and the opportunity to leverage off said money to invest further for the future good of the club and (with apology to the 80% OF fans
) the good of the game in general, in terms of balance.
Its as much mischief as it is about title stripping. Both miss the point!
I think that very wisely folk on here have stopped listening to Sportsound so let me report. Last night was remarkable though: there was someone from the integrity perspective at last. I believe he was connected to CQN. So I thought the programme was redeeming itself with balance. Then at the end Tom English and Richard Wilson had a competition to be more extreme on the proposition that only Celtic fans cared about this and if you went round the grounds fans at other clubs don’t care. I would like to know their method for establishing this ‘truth.’ There is all this spiel about connecting to the BBC audience but I see no way to let them know this non Celtic fan is not moving on.
English as has been noted here is a tease. You think he is seeing the light then his bank account pulls him back. Wilson is just beyond the pale. Is he even in the studio or is the ‘LNS decision cannot be appealed’ on a loop they play to fill space?
The BBC should not let staff make up ‘ facts’. What efforts have English and Wilson made to establish the position?
neepheid 20th November 2015 at 10:54 am
===========================
I tend to agree. I said a few days ago that in my opinion HMRC would be more than happy for this to go to the Supreme Court. They are unlikely to ever get a better chance to totally wrap this up.
If BDO appeal at the request of HMRC then before any statement is issued surely they would consult the views of the other Creditors?
They would also have to disclose that HMRC have requested them to appeal?
And as for Minty
surely with the liquidation of his cos he has no more right to fund an appeal than a member of the public?
Perhaps there should be a rota of those prepared to listen to Sportsound during their Radio Sevco sessions and an elite rota of those brave enought to do the same for SSB. Listening to some of the SSB luminaries are too malevolently daft for me right enough so I would bow to the commitment of those who go that extra mile
Mark McGee mischief I think not – but the contrast between reactions to information is appalling particularly when I have to pay for the BBC
Does anyone know what sort of cost is involved in appealing to the Supreme Court and how this might impact on the appelants? Is it likely that BDO would end up with even less of a pot to share round if an appeal were lost?
A quick point,as neepheid alluded to earlier,The Supreme Court is exactly where HMRC wish this to go,win there,its done,finished.Due to the language employed in the CoS judgement its a brave chap who would appeal.I believe HMRC have got to exactly where they want to be.
Also can someone tell me where SFM central actually is,I am in Glasgow next weekend if there would be anyone around,I would like to pop in and say hello.
Re the Herald article on a BDO appeal. Tbh I don’t think it’s worth wasting too much breath on it.
1. Didn’t the Herald also believe that HMRC had lost the case the day before they actually won it?
2. Doesn’t the Herald have a recent track record of fluffing Rangers/Sevco
3. BDO need to get permission from the CofS to appeal to the Supreme Court so even if they want to they may not be allowed to anyway.
It’s quite a remarkable position.
afc-chat has a 300+ page Sevco thread, jambos kickback similarly. I’m sure you could go on any club’s supporters forum and find likewise. Maybe someone could compile a list of links and send to Messrs English and Wilson to put them right.
Is there a possibility that the tax avoidance industry (and remember BDO are in that game too), would finance the likely £2m this will cost.
On what grounds Would COS refuse leave to appeal?
Just need to wait and see.
I’ve just received a reply from Celtic Park re my request for information as to their position. All good noises so far.
The same from the CFC AGM tweets, which show a stark contrast in focus, depending on whether you read the shareholder ones, or the SMSM ones.
It got me thinking about other clubs AGM’s, and perhaps if posters and lurkers alike have info they would be kind enough to post details from them. It’s hard to get decent news of them.
You deserve so much better. As a Celtic fan, I feel we get a raw deal, But wear your “Diddy club” badge with pride my friends, because you receive multiples of what we could ever endure. Hail Hail the diddy clubs,
ianagain, I’d guess that the tax planning industry would rather the process stopped here – recorded as a poorly managed scheme. HMRC would have to continue to use its declining resources chasing the multitude of dodgers across the country. Sceptics might think that The Chancellor wasn’t too fussed about maximising tax-take.
Not having read the Herald article, does it indicate the point of law that would have to be addressed ? And, as previously queried , wouldn’t COS have to accept there was a need for clarification before giving leave to appeal ? Then the Supreme Court would have to agree to hear the appeal, no ?
Bartin Main on twitter is on the case in relation to potential DR/ Herald ‘misinformation’ https://twitter.com/CarltonBartins/status/667692250143531008
The deliberate missing out of the due process of ‘seeking leave to appeal’ from CoS in those articles is that ‘misinformation’ being weighted towards a bias in favour of RFC(IL)
GoosyGoosy 20th November 2015 at 12:04 pm
==============================
I don’t think you require a “right” to fund it, just the ability and the willingness.
A member of the public can’t appeal the decision, that doesn’t stop them funding someone who does have that right. It may well be that Murray, or other interested parties are willing to do it.
I remain of the opinion that BDO will honestly do what they think is in the best interests of the creditors. Remember HMRC are the largest creditor just now, and they are on the liquidation committee. If they recommend to BDO that an appeal is lodged then BDO will certainly take that into consideration.
They would effectively be asking someone to appeal a decision which went in their own favour. How mad would that be. That’s the World of lawyers and accountants for you.
Just a wee side line.
I note that over on Sons of Struth, while commenting on all matter of things, they have still to comment on the latest Accounts as promised.
Clearly everyone is convinced that the share switcheroo proposed at the AGM and the hands going into deep pockets are going ahead as planned. That may keep the wolves from the door this year but what is going to happen next season when the money starts running out?
And to further discredit the herald/DR articles https://twitter.com/AllanGPrice/status/667703896006107136
Most of the clubs are NOT PLCs so won’t have AGMs in the Celtic style.
I think the attached list is fairly accurate. although there are a couple missing and a few were a bit difficult to decipher but for what it is worth, these appear to be the assorted football companies in Scotland (and Berwick)
Appalled as most here at the state of SMSM reporting. I noted on the telebox last night mention of the BBC trust running surveys. They gave a phone number, but asking google I stumbled across:
https://consultations.external.bbc.co.uk/bbc/nations/
Just as an example of the questions, I thought this one is particularly ripe for SFM participation. Participation that might find its way to someone in the BBC other than the usual recipient within BBC Scotland who return blandishments in the hope that you just get fed up and go away.
Q13. BBC Radio Scotland’s remit is to: provide accurate, impartial and independent news; report and scrutinise national political life carry extensive sports coverage support Scottish music, culture and arts fully reflect the diverse faiths, cultures and communities of Scotland provide opportunities for informal learning across a wide range of subjects encourage participation.
Deldon 20th November 2015 at 2:42 pm
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They are going to consult with the liquidation committee, elected specifically to ensure the liquidator was aware of the views of the creditors, who they are representing.
It’s so mad it just might be true.
Just noticed that my ordered mug has the legend on it;
“Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath”
I trust that redlichtie has already got his IP lawyers onto SFM for his royalties…?
scottc 20th November 2015 at 2:46 pm #
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ICT’s company name is INVERNESS THISTLE AND CALEDONIAN F.C. LIMITED SC149117 – Incorporated on 17 February 1994
zerotolerance1903 20th November 2015 at 12:33 pm #alexander276 20th November 2015 at 11:28 am #I think that very wisely folk on here have stopped listening to Sportsound so let me report. Last night was remarkable though: there was someone from the integrity perspective at last. I believe he was connected to CQN. So I thought the programme was redeeming itself with balance. Then at the end Tom English and Richard Wilson had a competition to be more extreme on the proposition that only Celtic fans cared about this and if you went round the grounds fans at other clubs don’t care. I would like to know their method for establishing this ‘truth.’ There is all this spiel about connecting to the BBC audience but I see no way to let them know this non Celtic fan is not moving on. English as has been noted here is a tease. You think he is seeing the light then his bank account pulls him back. Wilson is just beyond the pale. Is he even in the studio or is the ‘LNS decision cannot be appealed’ on a loop they play to fill space?The BBC should not let staff make up ‘ facts’. What efforts have English and Wilson made to establish the position?It’s quite a remarkable position.
afc-chat has a 300+ page Sevco thread, jambos kickback similarly. I’m sure you could go on any club’s supporters forum and find likewise. Maybe someone could compile a list of links and send to Messrs English and Wilson to put them right.
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Slight adjustment on your figures, zero. Jambos Kickback’s Sevco/RFC thread passed the 1690 pages point, to some hilarity, a month or so ago. That’s an awful lot of disinterest ?
Irony and reality bypasses still being carried out by men in white coats down Govan way.
From the Bears Den
Mark McGhee showing himself up for the Rangers hating arsehole we all know he is by having a pop about EBT’s in 2008. Staggering hypocrisy from a representative of a club who went into administration and paid off 19 players they clearly couldn’t afford.
I was browsing through some old Admin documents and came across the breakdown of the official figures in the CVA vote, which might be of interest to those bampots who like to keep such information. I’ve attached a copy for anyone who wishes to download it.
HMRC, as we know, used their £94M debt to veto the CVA, (£72M of which was disputed) in a 76.4% to 23.6% vote against.
Leaving the BTC £72M aside, the vote would have been 57.0% to 42.9% in favour of a CVA, meaning that the CVA would still have failed by a significant margin. (25% was sufficient to block it).
One of the creditors voting for acceptance was an “R Forsyth” with his £1,650 debt.
The document also lists those shareholders who voted 100% in favour of a CVA. Another name which stuck out in that list was a “Gary Ralston”.
I have no idea if the above Messrs Forsyth and Ralston are otherwise employed as journalists, but, if they are, it is an indication their affiliation with the oldco and most likely the newco.
easyJambo 20th November 2015 at 3:58 pm #
Thanks EJ. Alteration made.
scottc 20th November 2015 at 2:46 pm
Thanks for that Bud.
Ahhh!…..Those mischevious chaps at the Herald.
https://twitter.com/AllanGPrice/status/667703896006107136
Here’s a thought. Douglas Park back on the board after a short illness break – but his son, who replaced him stays on. Park not up for re-election, but everyone else is – also strange. The CEO, the most important exec in the company, is not trusted to be on the board. Stranger still.
A series of coincidences? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Ashley as we know is at war with King. I have a source who told me that if someone complained to The Panel on Takeovers and Mergers that the 3Bs + King and/or the RST were acting in concert, it is highly likely that such a complaint would be upheld – probably because they are acting in concert.
What better excuse for T3Bs to jettison King on the basis that none of them can afford to pay the best 12-month price (paid I think by the RST) that they would be forced into if the Panel adjudicated in that manner?
If all that is plausible, why would Ashley be keeping his powder dry up to now?
Another business source with ears in the SD camp told me that Ashley isn’t for dealing with anyone at Ibrox any longer.
Is Ashley waiting for the stage of the AGM to launch his big production number?
In either case, it is widely believed that King has cost Rangers their market listing, and he has certainly picked a fight with the wrong gut in Ashley.
In addition he has spent more time rallying the troops for a war that cant be won than he has on trying to make peace with the various stakeholders in the game. Right now, the only people he is not making war on is the Rangers fans themselves.
Sabre-rattling is a pretty easy thing to do is you know you won’t be around to pick up the bodies.
I think King is a goner. His choices are either scorched earth or stepping aside for “the good of the club”
Would a victory in the Supreme Court in this case really set a desired precedent though, if that victory was only achieved by virtue of Rangers not implementing EBTs properly? In other words, Rangers method of administering EBTs might be unique, uniquely poor even, such that HMRC wouldn’t necessarily have a precedent to take on Arsenal or any of the other EPL giants alleged to have used EBTs, if those clubs’ methods of administering EBTs was deemed to be faultless.
Big Pink 20th November 2015 at 6:02 pm
…In either case, it is widely believed that King has cost Rangers their market listing, and he has certainly picked a fight with the wrong gut in Ashley…
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Haw, nae need, big man, you’ve taken that too far
Highlander 20th November 2015 at 6:35 pm
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If it is ruled that tax is due at the point the payment is made into the trust then it won’t matter how anyone “administered” them.
A struck off lawyer turned pornographer advising that if you do it this way everything will be fine does not make it true.
Jingo.Jimsie,
Damn you. Damn damn damn damn you. I saw the “gut” comment and got all excited to make a joke and you just ruined it. Maliciously, with evil intentions, ruined my entire life.
Damn you.
Ryan, was thinking that too, but just couldn’t get a connection between gut & Ashley. I love spelling mistakes Every time I spot one I have a look at my keyboard and say to myself Oh I see how that haooened.
When I was at school it was only girls who were taught typing so it’s not my fault.
I can’t find who posted the link to the BBC’s survey, but thank you.
The main question and my answer are below
Q13. BBC Radio Scotland’s remit is to:provide accurate, impartial and independent news;report and scrutinise national political life carry extensive sports coverage support Scottish music, culture and arts fully reflect the diverse faiths, cultures and communities of Scotlandprovide opportunities for informal learning across a wide range of subjects encourage participation.
How well do you think BBC Radio Scotland does this?
My answer:
Generally good, but recently the sports coverage has declined.
I was very disappointed at the loss of Jim Spence. He comes across as a very intelligent, honest and balanced individual. He never hid the fact he was from Dundee, but was still able to deliver a neutral, accurate, impartial and humorous report on a subject. He was a sad loss. By the way, I am not Jim Spence, but I do pay a licence fee. He is sadly missed.
The employment of Richard Wilson was a mistake. His affiliation to Rangers could never be described as impartial. When he writes, he can’t hide his distaste for all things not Rangers. I feel Richard’s pain. His adopted club are going the same road as his previous club.
Chick Young, what can I say. If he could string two sentences together without saying something stupid, then it would be a surprise. He claims to be a St Mirren supporter, which maybe he is, but his excitement when Rangers are doing well is truly remarkable. His colleagues laugh at him. Impartial he is not.
There are others in the team, who I am glad I cannot remember their names, who are also concerned about the state of their football team. The particularly sad thing for them is that unless something odd happens, which is always possible in Scotland, then their new team will follow their old to the grave.
It is fairly obvious that whoever pulls the strings at BBC Sport Scotland ran about in blue football strip when he was a wee boy. When the inevitable happens, I will think about him and how happy he was as a child. How things change.
The BBC Sport Scotland is going the same way as the Daily Record. The number of people who will listen will decline. You’ve lost me from a lot of your programmes.
This has just end been posted on follow follow.com.
“Michael Ashley fails in legal bid to interfere with Rangers AGM
Mike Ashley made a late bid this week to obtain an interdict to stop three resolutions going before the Rangers AGM.Today in the Court of Session in Edinburgh two of his arguments were thrown out and the third, and least important, was continued to a later date.Essentially resolutions 9, 10 and 11 set out to give the Rangers Board power to issue new shares, to convert loans from wealthy fans into shares and to remove Ashley’s voting rights as he already has a considerable interest in another European club, namely Newcastle United. As this issue also involved the SFA is it likely to run and run.By leaving the legal challenge so late, Ashley’s representatives have continued in a long campaign that suspiciously looks like an attempt to wear down the club and directors by issuing legal complaint after legal complaint – costing the club hundreds of thousands of pounds and having the threat of personal liability hanging over the directors.This latest humiliation for Ashley is unlikely to be the last attempt to browbeat Rangers but must surely make his advisors and shareholders in Sports Direct question the sanity of allowing such an embarrassing farce to continue as it increasingly looks like ego rather than business sense is the motivating factor.”
i have no idea if this is accurate or not.
StevieBC 20th November 2015 at 3:39 pm #Just noticed that my ordered mug has the legend on it;“Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath”
I trust that redlichtie has already got his IP lawyers onto SFM for his royalties…?
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I’m afraid that MA has taken security over the IP, heard him muttering something about it being a much better proposition than some ground in Govan.
Scottish Football (Monitor) has a nicer set of mugs.
southstandcharlie,
This bit made me think:
“This latest humiliation for Ashley is unlikely to be the last attempt to browbeat Rangers but must surely make his advisors and shareholders in Sports Direct question the sanity of allowing such an embarrassing farce to continue as it increasingly looks like ego rather than business sense is the motivating factor.”
Like Ego rather than business sense.
In 2000 Murray declared Rangers would spend £10 for every £5 Celtic spent. In the summer of 2000 Celtic bought Sutton for £6M. In November 2000 Rangers bought T.A. Flo for £12m.
EGO or business?
There’s a tagline for next years mugs in there you know.
“SFM: You won’t find a nicer set of mugs.”
Redlichtie, since when has Ashley put more value on quality than mass produced trash?
“SFM: Mugs with Integrity”
We’ve heard a lot in here recently about how people would like to see the whole situation brought about by the last few years resolved. Here is my take as a Rangers fan. And as much as I know everyone here loves old club new club, please grant me some leniency.
1) we must admit we did wrong. I don’t care that we won two appeals and I don’t care that we lost the most recent one. I don’t care if we win the next one. We are in this mess because our former chairman embarked on a reckless course of money saving, and it blew up in his face. Either way, I paid my tax and the rich guys didn’t, and I hate that. They are my team, but I’m angry about that. Just admit it. Stop making excuses. We screwed up big time and it’s time to come clean.
2) Old club or new club, few would have denied in 2012 that in the event of liquidation a successor club would emerge. It is important to Scottish football that the thousands Rangers fans are retained. I know people hate that, but I think it’s true. I understand that people demand an admission that it’s not the same club. But I’m fed up hearing that “41 clubs must unite and demand…” This or that. Rangers are a big part of Scottish football, and I really think everyone should at least acknowledge that and hope to find a solution where we are all happy.
3) LNS – obviously must be reconvened, but only after all possible appeals and legal avenues have been exhausted, so that there is no need for a third enquiry. Once it is done, for sure, do the enquiry.
4) if, as seems entirely likely, registrations were incorrect, 0-3 seems the correct outcome for each game and if that leads to title stripping then so be it. I personally don’t care. The people spouting no sporting advantage on the radio, whether Rangers win legally or not, are so completely ridiculous that I am embarrassed for our media. Lose the titles; if we didn’t win them then I dint want to claim them.
5) And this is the one that will get the thumbs down on here. A number of clubs spent beyond their means pursuing success in recent years, and I think it has to be acknowledged that while Rangers have done wrong, others have too. Written off debt, administration, CVAs, whatever – Rangers are not the only club to have stiffed creditors.
6) Specifically to TSFM, stop demanding apologies from Rangers fans when they appear on the forum. You just force them to leave. I’ve expressed contrition on behalf of my club many times, and have been here for many years, and yet still get the odd comment expecting apology for the things that were done.
That is a random collection of thoughts late on a Friday night. I expect vigorous and respectful retort from fellow community members. Let battle commence!
Ryan welcome.
I can only comment on the Well administration as it went down in 2002
The startling difference there was all the staff were made redundant on the day. There were well documented punch ups in the streets tWith management and players.
We only dodged relegation due the seats rules which rightly Falkirk hate us to this day. I do wonder if that was another wee bit of SFA connivance.
From that we went without Spencer Goram and so on to build back with the likes of home grown James McFadden.
Boyle crucially forgave his personal debt and by I think mid 2004 we were debt free.
Did we do wrong? As in do something deliberately wrong?
Yes we tried to join in the big spending gang.
We screwed it up and actually fitba wise were better AFTER we went down the grow your own route.
Mark McGhee will have known all this when making his so called controversial comments.
Anyhow club overspends club in administration 2 years later fixed.
One hang over I have heard from this is it is only in the last year or so we have had a bank facility. Administration not without its consequences.
Here’s a sobering thought for anyone thinking of hitting England’s higher courts for any reason.
JJ has put up a resume of BDO costs and itemised the legal fee’s. So in my reckoning James D and I have had the benefit of watching £64000 in legal fees being spent in front of our eyes in a mere 6hours (lunch included).
Incredible but true.
RyanGosling 20th November 2015 at 11:54 pm #
Well said , Ryan . I think you’ve got the swally fever on !
I, for one, am not interested in those titles being re-allocated – we widnae get any of them anyway . If, after the appeals process is exhausted or abandoned , those in governance of Scottish football (settle down at the back !)should decide what would be fair for the 42 pro clubs now in membership and come to a resolution acceptable to all . I would be happy if they stated that , officially, it stopped at 54 and there are asterisks against some of the honours “won”. Juventus,for example, had to accept something similar, but their fans still count the stripped ones in their total even though the official one doesn’t . All in the eye of the beholder .
I don’t think Rangers fans did wrong in the financial meltdown and malfeasance , but some of the belligerence towards any body who rejects their point of view has been reprehensible . Unfortunately for some of the fan base it is acceptable ,if not expected of them .
You’re probably right in your expectation of flack about other clubs spending more than they could afford , but your club upped the ante and they (the other clubs) were forced into overspending in order to compete – we wouldn’t have wanted a one-team league (well most fans wouldn’t) I propose a cold war analogy to you . USA spending forced USSR out of business because they ran out of resources to compete . USSR then, Russian Federation now . RFC then ,TRFC now .
(It would be nice to see an EBT recipient break cover and state something like “I was happy to pay normal tax and NI but that option wasn’t available/ I was advised to accept by my agent or the offer would have been withdrawn . I just wanted to play for Rangers . I would be happy to reach a settlement with HRMC.)
Rangers fans enjoyed the glory days and there’s nothing wrong with that . They didn’t know or care that it was on the on the never-never(old school lingo ) . But the club did not exit administration , it progressed from there to liquidation .
Scottish football probably cannot afford to lose (most of ) the fanbase , so somewhere down the line , I reckon an accommodation will be reached . Sorry if this is longwinded but it is/was Friday and the pubs are open late ! Enjoy your fitba’ !
paddy malarkey 21st November 2015 at 1:58 am
‘… All in the eye of the beholder .’
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Not strictly true, paddymalarkey: there is an objective truth, regardless of personal views and opinions.
There is a real world.
And in the real world, RFC died as a sports entity in 2012. It cannot now compete in, let alone win, any more competitions.
Furthermore, for many years before its death, RFC’s cheating owner broke some of the most serious rules of the SFA and the then SPL- by fielding ineligible players. The trophies and titles ‘won’ over those years were ‘won’ by cheating.
That is a simple fact, as immutable as the facts that the world is round and that all of us will one day die.
We can smile tolerantly at those who delude themselves.
But we cannot yield to their pleas that the truth be ignored, and that we should all accept their fantastic views!
We are probably stuck with CG’s new creation.
BUT we must insist that it be recognised as a new creation and refuse absolutely to accept the myth that it is the same RFC that may have won many trophies and titles honourably enough in the days before SDM listened avidly to a struck-off solicitor , peddling his dirty wares.
Ryan, good post and not a lot to argue with except that it’s not about overspending, IMO. As JC says, DM broke the rules and hid that fact to enable the bloated spending to continue. Dundee, Motherwell et al overspent but they didn’t break the rules. They ran into the inevitable brick wall of administration and spent several years thereafter rebuilding, but because the administration was done properly (unlike whatever it was that D&P did at Ibrox) they managed to survive it. It helped, of course, when much of the debt can be written off by an individual, but that is not going to happen when you stiff the taxman. As you say, us little people pay our taxes; so should the well-heeled.
Aberdeen posting a profit,what’s going wrong with our game,we demand to know.
yourhavingalaugh 21st November 2015 at 8:17 am
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HIGHLIGHTS
Record Turnover at £13.077 million
Operating Profit £509,000
Wages to turnover 51 per cent
Elimination of Debt allowed £14.493m to be transferred to shareholder’s funds hence transforming the balance sheet.
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51% wages to turnover ratio is excellent, it is a very important measure of how well a football club is being run.
“The 2014-5 season was again one of the most successful in the Club’s recent history. While it did not have the glamour of the previous season’s cup success, reaching the third qualifying round of the Europa League and pushing Celtic in the title race into May was an excellent performance from Derek McInnes and his team of players and back-room staff. The success of the Under 20 team in winning the SPFL Development League for the first time since 1987 was also a great achievement and bodes well for the years ahead.”
There’s another good sign, clearly bringing youth through if they are winning the under 20’s league.
“The overall turnover increased by £1.919 million from £11.158 million to £13.077 million,which is a record for the Club, with the previous highest turnover of £12.869 million being achieved in the 2007-8 season when we reached the knockout stages of the UEFA Cup. The Club Shop also achieved a record income of £2.086 million”
Clearly the support are coming and are putting their hands in their pocket with regards merchandising etc.
Chairman Stewart Milne added. “At last year’s Annual General Meeting, the refinancing of the Club’s debt was formally approved, enabling £14.493 million to be moved to Shareholders’ Funds and allowing the Club to trade for the first time in many years without the burden of debt and regular interest and capital payments. The consequent strengthening of the balance sheet has put us in a better position to deliver the much sought-after dedicated training facilities and also a new AFC stadium.”
Re-structuring the club and moving forward, accepting the reality of modern football in Scotland. That makes absolute financial sense.
Well done to Aberdeen both on and off the field. There will obviously be ups and downs, everyone has that. However this is clearly a club building for the future and they should be applauded for it.