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Everyone on this site has football experiences, views, stories and opinions. Everyone also wants things to be better in the future too. These are bonds that make us who we are and this forum what it is.
I’ll share a few experiences with you now.
I will never forget an impromptu and inspirational 60 minute Q. and A. masterclass by Davie MacParland to a group of relative youngsters at Hampden in 1975 after Scottish Unis had played a friendly with his team.
It was “over the moon Brian” time for me on finding a £5 note in my shoe. This was after I played my first game (unexpectedly) as an S form in the Highland League when my club’s Aberdeen-based players had been held up by a road incident.
So happy and corrupted was I that I never questioned the widespread practice of giving money to amateur players thereafter so I’m part of the problem.
I also sat next to a young Jim Leyton who came to Butchart to watch himself on a match video after he had let in two goals when we dumped Deveronvale (where he was on loan) out of the Aberdeenshire Cup. It was the very early days of video and Jim had never seen himself on a tv before.
Every person in the SFM community will have equally diverse and interesting experiences and I’m going to share one more with you now in a little more detail.
In the mid 90s I was given an amazing insight into how Scottish football really worked. In many ways it hasn’t changed much since.
Back then I was part of a small group brought in to help find funding for the upgrade of Tynecastle with the urgent need to construct three new stands. At the time it was a massive requirement for a very financially challenged organisation and at a push there were potentially just about enough pots of monies available from several sources to trigger the investment from the Football Trust and squeak over the line.
The most critical pot was mobilising the fans.
My role was to find a way of getting them to come aboard working with some fine lifetime Hearts fans like the late Alex Kitson so it would all look like a Hearts Community rather than a Mercer initiative.
The then, colourful Hearts majority owner was under constant pressure on other fronts at the time.
The team was not really performing with relatively new manager Jim Jeffries trying to get best out of predecessor Tommy Mclean’s mixed bag of old pros and kids. Making things worse was a growing, highly critical and very vocal consortium of local business people trying to get Mercer out (and themselves in).
I guess you could say in today’s parlance that they were RHM and civil war was very much happening down Gorgie way.
Anyway I can’t now recall all the detail and apologies if my memories have fused a little but a key AGM type meeting for Hearts shareholders at Ingliston was coming up and there was an agenda that looked like it might hurt “The Chairman” as Wallace liked to be called.
Never any flies on him though, he had seen the danger signs and was ready in his own way.
He turned up with his trusted few and simply yet quite brilliantly hijacked the negative agenda and ignored the real issues. He didn’t have a solution for them and couldn’t implement the changes that were in reality needed but quite simply he kicked all the trouble into the long grass.
He did this because he fundamentally understood that most shareholders in the room were just ordinary football fans and wanted nothing more than to be able to talk about football the game, Hearts their club, who they were due to play next and who would be playing.
It was that simple.
Mercer’s message to all that night was “Yes things have been tough but our best possible future is with me”.
He rammed this home by confidently telling the assembled body that Hearts were on the up because we had a new manager who needed time and then blew everyone away by announcing he just signed three amazing new players for them, Giles Rousset, Bruno Pasquale and Hans Eskilsson. After the applause and mayhem died down he had won.
Bruno and Rousset were newsworthy in any Scottish football context one being a French International and the other an ex Juventus tough guy with a EUFA and a couple of Coppa Italia winners medals.
Oh and Eskilsson had amazing hair.
Mercer’s simple bit of insight, showmanship, brinksmanship, call it what you like, led to the survival of his regime.
In a parallel maybe to what the SFA did after their meeting with Craig at the Hotel Du Vin in Glasgow, Mercer had enough time to be ready for the trouble he knew was coming and used his power to ignore the real issues and the detail and move on with a big gamble.
Looking back Wallace got a lot right .
He understood what the majority of ordinary football fans wanted. He’d also learnt that good press was needed and came from feeding the football writers enough tasty exclusives so they’d look after him in a symbiotic relationship, the kind of relationship that remains much the same today.
Even back then in the days when there were less full-colour pages pre-allocated to certain teams to fill and more able journalists to fill them, the sports pages were about game reports and gossip rather than insight.
The packs of hacks all craved being handed tasty semi-exclusive stories.
It was and ever is thus and in those days the Daily Record was a wee gem with circulation nearer 700K than the 200K-ish today and amazingly all its costs were covered by it’s advertising revenue alone. The proud boast of Endell Laird was the purchase price was pure profit.
With hindsight Wallace may only have postponed the inevitable campaign by the RHM rebels that night at Ingliston. History tells us that the Robinson/Deans rebellion eventually forced their chance. They did have to dig much deeper financially than they ever wanted when their time eventually came, and soon fell out too, but that’s another story.
Wallace’s long grass was just never going to be deep enough to hide the issues he wanted to ignore but to his credit on his watch the stadium was upgraded and the first Scottish Cup since 1956 was paraded to the fans.
Mr. Mercer was an operator who like others before and since could see personal and business value in owning a club.
He cultivated friendly football writers.
He learned that the SFA could be difficult to deal with but much less so when you placed people on their various management boards. That was key to the inner power sanctums and brought you at best influence and at worst early warnings.
He may have been autocratic but knew you needed powerful friends at other clubs too and was always close with David Murray in particular.
So what has this little piece of retrospection and a handful of Finloch football stories got to do with a blog on SFM?
Last week I met Big Pink for the first time over a few coffees.
It was like meeting an old friend in the pub because of all the stuff we’ve lived through and shared over the last 5 or so years.
We talked about stuff and traded stories and opinions on life, football and about SFM what it does and what we are.
We got on to the subject of it’s future and with my business background he asked me to consider a piece for the blog about where the SFM, our fledgling business might go from here.
I maybe agreed too hastily because I have found it challenging to gather and spell out my thoughts.
So this is very much a starting couple of steps to bring in the SFM minds and set up future discussions following this blog and when we meet in Perth in April.
My starting point was to first consider what we are today.
It’s a personal view but to me SFM is a valued medium I come to most days. It’s for when I want to find out or to discuss what is happening.
It is populated with a bunch of people with different backgrounds, skills and insights, is always polite and often very funny.
I’d actually like to see more headline blogs because I enjoy them but our biggest value will always be analysis discussion and good humour.
SFM is fundamentally different to the MSM back pages that still offer us all a mono diet of whatever day-to-day gossip they have been spoon-fed by the Level 9’s of this world or made up and maybe embellished with a random phone call for a quote.
Yes their world is declining and will inevitably see fundamental restructure and change but that change has in reality nothing to do with how they cover and will continue to cover Scottish football.
I’d even posit (to use a wee word I’ve learned from the excellent JJ site I visit sometimes) that the red tops currently see their style of football coverage as a way of slowing their inevitable declines because it delivers the difficult to reach male audience their advertisers crave access to.
As a spectator I’d say the MSM in Scotland mostly seem to suffer from a polarised demographic focus/ bias too but that can never excuse their revisionism or the Spiers and Haggerty episodes we’ve just witnessed.
There is one benefit though. One you maybe hadn’t thought about from all the dreadful MSM football reportage.
The stuff they collectively generate enables all of us to have daily conversations with friends and strangers without actually saying anything about anything.
It gives us our daily top-up for the international language of football minutiae we all converse in every day.
I’ve been able to speak it fluently since I was in my teens. You know the kind of thing – the ins and outs, the ups and downs, the comings and goings and the toings and froings.
The good news, the bad news the made-up news – its all part of being involved with a team or indeed just being a football fan and it’s all conversation for the males of our species.
There are plenty of places I can and do get access to that kind of stuff but SFM isn’t and never has been a source.
I quickly found out that most of my pals don’t want to talk about side letters in the pub on a Friday, or the need for asterisked titles because they are more interested in tomorrow’s match and who will be out of contract at the end of the season.
Without being disrespectful in any way I think they are cut from the same wood as the majority of Mr. Mercer’s Hearts shareholders and if I’m honest part of me is too.
That has given our administrators and clubs too easy a ride.
Beyond the gossip it is fair to say in the last 40 or 50 years football has changed beyond all recognition.
It has become a source of power and money and as we know proverbially and in real life power can corrupt and money can be the root of all-evil.
The stuff happening at FIFA now can be no surprise to any fair-minded fan and I’d be inclined to think that there have been finagled decisions at the top for longer than the current stewardship of Mr. Blatter.
Way longer.
Football-land is a dirty world. A world where all the transparency is for show and real stuff has always been controlled and rewarding for those in the right places.
Closer to home football in Scotland is no different. Power and money have been the origins of our own North of the Border soap opera saga.
Its sometimes been very funny, often been entertaining too but is ultimately tragic and a sad indictment on our country.
Being Scotland nothing is ever as simple as it should be.
We started from a unique kind of place where for over a century we have had to live with an unhealthy, quasi-tribal, two-club duopolistic domination of all things football including the fans, the trophies, the money, the media attention and the administrators controlling our game.
The stark reality of 2016 is our biggest club/economy now finds its real ambitions thwarted, potentially forever, by its location in our restrictive league structure. It has nowhere currently to go and annoyingly the biggest league in the world is just over the border and part of the same country in political terms.
This is a destabilising influence on our game that won’t go away until change allows the next evolution.
Our second biggest economy as we now know had to cheat a little to keep up, post Fergus, and is now making its way back to the top end but with some truly nuclear baggage that I guess we still really only know the half of. Nothing will be simple in its return to what we’re told everyday is its rightful place. It too is a latent destabilising influence awaiting like a grumbling volcano.
What depresses me is the fact that the much-vaunted return of our dysfunctional duopoly is not a formula to recreate the European success we all took for granted for so long. Those days will never return.
The decline of the Scottish giant that was and is Rangers has dominated our thoughts because it encapsulates so much more than what is wrong with our game.
It is a huge business and establishment fall from grace. A shocking story that has become an elephant in the room to our politicians, our media and many of our fellow fans and is still playing out to deafening silence in some quarters.
In the manic run up to the decline of David Murray’s club we benefitted from insights from the seminal RTC and were bombarded with mass denials from almost everywhere else.
We witnessed the £1 sale to Craig Whyte, the subsequent McCoist European failure, the eventual slide into messy liquidation with tax issues etc.
Our administrators failed us all the way through because they had a different agenda.
Our MSM didn’t want to know partly because it involved more than regurgitating press releases and partly because it was real news for real reporters and not back pages gossip.
Their editors failed us there too, big time.
Now the revisionism and invention of the post-liquidation ephemeral club and company scenarios has been creative to say the least.
I remember Mr. Traynor’s initial headline and smile how he and others are now wading in a contradictory swamp of their own making. It’s all confusion when it needn’t be.
I only know the kind of stuff that really happened because of this site and its RTC predecessor.
Four or five years on and I think these guys (SFA, SPFL) acted like Wallace Mercer did at Ingliston and ran roughshod over process to “win”.
These well paid admin staff were never off-piste though and our clubs share complicity for their actions to varying degrees.
If I was Regan’s or Doncaster’s devil’s advocate I could just about comprehend that they acted because they feared for their TV revenues. The prospect of being without half of their duopoly ace card and the blue fans scared them and they were mandated by the clubs to maintain the status quo.
I don’t mean all the clubs but if we look at the key committee structures we’ll easily see who were in that inner sanctum at the time. They collectively decided to throw their rulebook out the window and there is no grass long enough to bury their collective actions because truth always outs.
Cast yourself back a few years not long before the St Valentine’s day 2012 news when the push was all for a 10 club league.
I remember Stewart Milne aggressively trying to sell us all a 10-club league because of the TV revenue it delivered (to the few).
At that time there seemed to be a collective “TV Gold Fever” prevailing in the cabal of top club chairmen that makes the real decisions and tells our administrators what to do.
Luckily they failed.
They nearly failed again too in 2012 with their tawdry 5 way agreement and we all owe a debt of gratitude to the late Turnbull Hutton whose personal integrity, bloody-mindedness and leadership meant a significant change to the premeditated 5 way plan that our top clubs had all signed off.
Since then we’ve all suffered from Armageddon and long may it stay.
SFM has been at the forefront of the last five years. A place where fans from all the clubs come together to question, analyse, give insight, balance, consciousness on all aspects of the meandering road that has been this story so far.
It’s all recorded on our archives somewhere too. We’ve noted and discussed the following and more –
- Two different signatures from the same club on the 5-way agreement
- Two different and concurrent memberships of the SFA
- Players TUPE-ing for free and no lawyers getting rich in trying to get them back
- Pre-season games being cancelled because of registration and insurance issues
- The Brechin game coming too soon for the paperwork
- The entry-round in The Ramsdens Cup for the old club or is it the new club?
- Record crowds, an even more aggressive songbook
- Ian Black getting a surprise call-up and a bit of a game to legitimise The New Rangers with their first cap
- Millions raised from a gullible city and desperate fans but still several last gasp saves needed to avoid new financial stramashes
- A charity that pays for holidays in America
- Quasi-legal stuff with dodgy parameters for questionable enquiries like Nimmo Smith
- Bryson and his logic that Spartans could and should have used to stay in the cup
- A “Hopelessly Conflicted Chairman” re-elected and a new one who has fitted in seamlessly
- Real legal stuff like HMRC appeals, and phrases like side-letters
- Charlotte Fakes and maybe even Fake Charlotte Fakes
- Fit and proper persons running our clubs
- Recorded conversations
- Onerous contracts
- Metaphysical concepts of what football clubs in our courts with big bucks being spent on our behalf by our administrators
There is and has been a whole lot more and more to come on the schedules too.
How much of this would I have found on our MSM?
Very little – so thanks to those who go the extra mile for us including John Clark, EasyJambo and others at the courts, Phil who will never go away, James Doleman and others too including JJ – all playing blinders where the hacks don’t dare.
Finally fast-forward to today.
Most Scottish fans probably know a little about the stuff I’ve touched upon and we’ve debated in depth. Not enough though.
But we have Darryl Broadfoot who is the SFA so we can all sleep rest assured each night.
Going forward we must address how we communicate as a medium to spread the word.
Ask yourself – Is what we do more important than knowing Rangers signed Dean Windass’s son from Accrington Stanley on a free because he’s going to play for England one day and stuff like that?
I’d say it is different although both have a place.
Our challenge is to create more impact with ours.
In finishing I have one serious starting proposal to make as a community but first a thank you.
Thank you to all the blog writers and posters because we have collectively created a site where real stuff can be dissected and discussed politely and in a non-partisan way.
Well done to the mods in particular and to our community In general
My simple proposal as our first step forward is to start a Wikipedia style library of the facts and keep it on our site.
Dates, happenings, people and all the stuff that will not allow any of it to stay buried forever in the long grass. The kind of detail that is in Auldheid’s amazing and resolute Resolution 12.
Chapter and verse whys and wherefores with dates and names.
This will achieve three things.
- It will create bedrock for us as a trusted media channel whatever we decide to become.
- It will put stuff factually into the public domain forever.
- It will contradict any highly paid revisionists trying to change what really happened for their own agendas into the future.
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normanbatesmumfc 10th March 2016 at 1:50 pm
‘….. I only wish Fergus McCann was still in charge of Celtic back in 2012. I’m sure he would have had this sorted out years ago and would not have been afraid to call out the disgraceful behaviour of the SFA and league governing bodies…’
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Sadly, the Dermot Desmond fella is not at all in the same mould as Fergus.He would seem rather to be more in the mould of a former majority shareholder of a now liquidated club, and soul- mate of the directors of TRFC, in his readiness to tout TRFC as continuity RFC. Bad cess to him.
Not a hellish lot the rest of the Celtic Board can do, other than resign. Which is not likely to happen.
John Clark 10th March 2016 at 7:01 pm #A good laugh on Sportsound tonight: the idea of the SFA taking anti-doping measures seriously! It surely cannot be expected that a cheating administration will bother about players taking drugs?…
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I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of individual, professional sportsmen are on some form of performance enhancing drugs, whether it is a track athlete, a golfer, whatever.
I would also hazard a guess that a high percentage of professional team players like footballers and rugby players are also on some enhancing drugs like steroids.
And judging by the continued / [increased ?] usage of drugs in sports, [e.g. the IAAF reports], IMO the relevant governing bodies are not so much interested in keeping their sports drug free – but keeping their sports’ image as commercially valuable as possible – and to avoid a high profile scandal like the Women’s Poster Girl – Sharapova – being busted…
And personally, from being totally engrossed in the Olympics as a kid – I haven’t been interested at all in years because it seems that whoever has the best chemist wins the gold, IMO !
Likewise the SFA & SPFL can willfully ignore and/or even support any football dodgy goings-on – if they deem it is better for business.
But the key stakeholders – i.e. the paying punters – have a starkly different perspective on the value of sport.
All English teams should be banned from Europa league competition.
Spurs again tonight playing 7 reserve players and down 2-0.
If they can’t be arsed then get them tf.
Plenty others need the money and would love to play.
This EPL at all costs is corrupting.
The Celtic board since 2012 have made not just terrible moral and ethical decisions by failing to defend the club’s interests as regards the status of the New Club, the acceptance of the 5 way agreement, the failure to challenge LNS, the failure to pursue resolution 12 , and the failure to call out the persecution of the club’s fans by a politicised and racist police force enforcing wholly fascistic legislation designed solely to criminaliuse Celtic fans, but also appalling commercial ones.
The club’s support is now demoralised, disgusted and disillusioned with the club as well as the corrupt body politic of Scottish footbsll, and the number of season book sales is in a steady and unstoppable decline.
The bizarre belief that only the return of a despicable, loathed and disgraced shadow of a former club in a ridiculous masquerade can or will address the slide is both cynical and wholly misguided.
The correct course of action morally and financially from 2012 onwards was to challenge the corrupt SFA, announce the death of Rangers asvfact and defend the fans against sustained attack by the press and police combined. Had they done this, a contrite SFA would by now be forced to apply its own rules, the truth would be universally acknowledged and Celtic Park would be bursting at the seams.
The Celtic board’s actions sadly have been consistentl despicable and self defeating. With wisdom, integrity and even an ounce if nous, it could and should have been so very different.
I’ve only just caught up with today’s posts and I must say that I am disappointed by the update on Res. 12, particularly if there is a time bar that requires action to be taken by the end of March.
I know that the whole issue was ultimately dependent on the status of taxes due on specific dates during May and June 2011.
I don’t think I am breaking any contempt of court rules in stating that the non payment of the wee tax case bill forms part of the current indictment in the Fraudco trial. I’m certain that here have been, or will be, pleas, evidence, decisions or rulings relating to the non payment of the bill heard in court. I’m also certain that the relevant information will be available to the Crown and accused legal teams.
It would be rather ironic if the definitive answer to what actually happened and when is revealed or ruled upon as part of the current proceedings, but too late to be considered by UEFA.
Very disappointed but unsurprised to hear that the Celtic board are not fully supportive of Resolution 12.The shareholders response seems to be quite muted though , almost like rabbits in headlights. I would like to think that Celtic supporters groups could come together and agree an approach to pressure the board to reconsider. The stadium is often half empty regardless of current season ticket sales so why buy a season ticket? A quiet word hinting to PL that walk up sales will be predominant next season along with a refusal to buy programmes/catering or visit the superstore must force the board to see sense on this matter,even a kickstart appeal for finances to really go to town on the SFA.The board have a duty to their shareholders which is not being served ;are they really hiding behind the flimsy reasoning of it is more in the shareholders interests to play Sevco on a regular basis than pursue the resolution? If so I hope they have grossly miscalculated and this is the straw. I have posted previously that the emotions and loyalty of the fanbase is being cynically manipulated and taken for granted.
Celts for change redux.
gunnerb,
I’m not stating a view one way or another on the validity of your comment, but I found it ironic that this:
” A quiet word hinting to PL that walk up sales will be predominant next season along with a refusal to buy programmes/catering or visit the superstore must force the board to see sense on this matter”
is almost exactly what fans of TRFC have been saying the past few years.
How sad that Celtic fans feel the need to resort to similar tactics. I blame the board.
jimbo 10th March 2016 at 8:52 pm
is almost exactly what fans of TRFC have been saying the past few years.
How sad that Celtic fans feel the need to resort to similar tactics. I blame the board.
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Just because other fans have realised the power of the their football pound doesn’t invalidate the reasoning in any way Jimbo. Blame he board all you like but you and others have the power to ultimately decide the fate of Resolution 12 .
Celts for change redux
gunnerb,
I think you misunderstand me. I didn’t say such action was invalid. I was pointing out the irony that Celtic fans are now being driven to contemplate such actions by our board. It was board issues that made TRFC fans take similar action whether we agree with it or not.
As an aside, I eventually became one of the non attendees in the era of ‘Celts for Change’ or as I called it ‘sack the board’. So I’m not unsympathetic.
If the story regarding Celtic and Resolution 12 today is true then Armageddon has finally arrived.
For a long time supporters thought that some clubs, Celtic included, were keeping their powder dry awaiting the outcome of The Big Tax Case.
The problem is that to have The Big Tax Case automatically indicates that there is another case and this is a critical point. This tax evasion has already been proved in this case to be illegal. This, on the face of it, is an open and shut case. Were taxes due? Yes Should the club have been allowed into Europe with these taxes owing? No.
The people running with Resolution 12 have been stonewalled, and possible lied to, by a board of director’s hell bent on protecting the very people who have systematically cheated them and their shareholders. That is how ridiculous this has become.
Today, due to corporate cowardice, the Celtic board committed corporate suicide. This decision will reverberate through the Celtic support and if the board won’t protect the club why should the fans pay to watch players participate in a corrupt league. That is the reality of the decision taken recently. A board, with a duty to protect the interests of its shareholders, allows those very shareholders, and the club, to be cheated out of millions of pounds.
What was the point of Celtic announcing publicly that they had written to the SFA after the cup semi -final last year? The SFA now know Celtic have an utterly toothless and ineffectual board who will accept any treatment given to them. If they think it has been bad up till now then they are in for a rude awakening next year. They will be battered from pillar to post by an organisation with one objective, utterly out of control, and held in check by no one.
Armageddon has arrived as thousands will now move on to other sports due to the corruption now eating through every aspect of our sport just as the protected entity arrives back with all the repugnant aspects attached to it.
jimbo 10th March 2016 at 9:47 pm #gunnerb,
I think you misunderstand me. I didn’t say such action was invalid.
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Nor did you, apologies Jimbo.
Celts for change redux
Well seeing as we are all now going to abandon our first love..anyone any thoughts on the chances of Min ?
Celts for change redux
I fully appreciate the quandry Celtic, board and fans find themselves in re resolution 12 and associated matters.
I also appreciate that the issues involved relate to the whole of the Scottish Football and therefore it is a bit unfair to expect Celtic to be the only club making a stand or taking a lead.
However outwith the two large Glasgow clubs life tends to go on unchanged.
Outwith this forum I’d guess many a fan of the diddy teams still believe there is an Old Firm and that there are still the two cheeks to the same arse that would have been happy to ply it’s trade elsewhere and stuff the rest of us.
Many on this site have posted saying they had hoped a new Rangers may have emerged from the debacle down Govan Way. However very little thought was given to whether or not we also should have also hoped for a new Celtic.
While many a Hoops fan on here has done their best, through actions and words, to challenge how others view them and their football team, the club itself has missed a golden opportunity to break away from the past and the symbiotic relationship with the club from Govan.
It is not for the good of Scottish Football that Celtic need to take a stance. It is for the good of Celtic, because mark my word when the Old Firm and all that come with it returns to suck the life out of the top division those outside the big two will revert to viewing that big arse for what it always has been.
40 new friends would have been better than an old, jealous, bitter and troublesome one that could and should have been shown the door.
easyJambo 10th March 2016 at 8:21 pm
‘…It would be rather ironic if the definitive answer to what actually happened and when is revealed or ruled upon as part of the current proceedings, but too late to be considered by UEFA. ‘
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Even an innocent abroad such as I would begin to wonder whether ‘ironic’ would be quite strong enough, or apt enough, an adjective, eJ. I would suspect there hasd been a well-orchestrated Fabius ‘Cunctator’ strategy on the part, jointly,of the SFA and the Celtic board.
I would hope to be wrong, but I think it is extremely unlikely that there have not been discussions between that Board and the SFA, about how to deal with these pesky small shareholders who want to rock the boat.Spin!Jolly them along with earnest noddings of the head, and ‘I hear what you’re saying’ observations! Delay! Put it on the long finger on specious ‘legal’ grounds until the small man runs out of steam and ,perhaps, ( I don’t know) some rule-book artificial deadline date is reached ( some years later)when no action is constitutionally possible.
No, ‘ironic’ wouldn’t be in it!
In the spirit of this site being for all supporters, I will try to keep this post club neutral.
There have been many times in football for talk of boycotts to be discussed or even actioned around issues surrounding clubs, mostly supporters v Directors. It is very difficult for fans to come to a decision.
It is usually a measure of last resort. Things will have happened beforehand, chanting, gestures, banners, demonstrations etc. But if the disconnect between a club and it’s fans come to a point where the directors are not listening, what’s a fan to do?
Obviously directors have one eye on the supporters but the other two on the cash register. So it is the ultimate power that the fans have, when all else fails.
It is at this point I think of Shakespeare’s “Let slip the dogs of war” – Julius Caesar.
Most, if not all clubs have their fiercest rivals. Imagine a boycott, Imagine letting your players out there subject to all sorts of dogs abuse without your support? Imagine the ‘few/fewer’ of your fans who did attend. Being out sung & ridiculed.
Short term pain for long term gain springs to mind.
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That’s my neutral hat off now.
That was the position many Celtic supporters were faced with back in the day. But it wasn’t just non attendance that made it happen. There were rallies, fanzines (a new concept at the time, alongside a boycott of The Celtic View) supporter clubs action, petitions and much more. The Bank of Scotland, despite their best efforts, helped us along too, galvanised the support against that shower of greedy bankers who would go on to be a big part in the downfall of Rangers.
It worked. We got Wee Fergus.
But it’s not easy it splits you in two.
iceman63 10th March 2016 at 7:57 pm
“…The correct course of action morally and financially from 2012 onwards was to challenge the corrupt SFA, announce the death of Rangers asvfact .”
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There is not a genuine supporter of football, even professional football, as a Sport fairly and honestly played in a fairly and honestly administered rule-based structure, who would not agree with that statement, pure and simple.
In the interests of absolute fairness [ I smile as I recollect a conversation I had on the bus to Glasgow about six monthsago with an Egyptologist, a very earnest and very nice University lecturer, who actually and quite categorically assured me that that there were no ‘absolutes’! I think she winced a little when I asked whether that was as absolute a statement as it sounded], in fairness, as I say, the correct course of action was for all clubs to have gone further than they did.
They exercised some moral courage in refusing instant SPL status to Charlie’s creation. Maybe they deserve 2 out of 10 for that. But, sadly, they ALL( with the probable exception of Raith Rovers) bottled it in the end, not just your club.
I think we need to keep in mind that our Football Authorities try to make their dreadful behaviour a fiction of the paranoid imagination of Celtic supporters.
We on this blog know that their behaviour struck, and continues to strike, at the very essence of sporting integrity, and is not a matter of hyped up gamesmanship between two sets of rival fans, a gamesmanship which treats the supporters of 40 other clubs, whose names and locations are part of the DNA of the sport of football.
b.gger. The last sentence of my immediately previous post should have had a main verb. ‘A gamesmanship which treats the supporters of 40 other clubs as mere incidental adjuncts..”. Or something like that!
Celtic have had a clear run at the riches of European football for four straight years.
I hope I’m wrong but therein lies the price of complicity.
Money grabbing cheats the lot of them; shame on them all!
Question: Who pulls the strings? In 2012 when Rangers FC went bust almost every newspaper in the land declared the Rangers FC of old had died. Ceased to exist, shuffled off its mortal coil etc. No grey areas. Dead. Then within a few days almost to a man, every single person who had written of the Clubs demise were retracting their statements and telling us what we seen is not what we actually seen. It was the boiler house entity that was to be liquidated not the famous Club. What sh$t. But someone somewhere had enough power over the Media to make them all begin to regurgitate the new narrative. A narrative that cannot be questioned by anyone without consequence. Stadium Announcers, BBC Reporters etc all have fell foul of this unwritten law. But who/what dictated this to be so? I am sure the fans of the current team from Ibrox would like to think that it is they who hold and wield this power. Its not. Look at the BBC. They had a huge hand in the uncovering of the EBT years. Laying bare the facts for al to see via one of their best journalists. They were in hot pursuit of a huge story then, nothing. All stopped. Now listen to any BBC outlet on Scottish Football and you will soon become aware that there has been a 180 degree about turn. Their pundits being ever more soothing to the Ibrox Club and their legion of fans. The truth is certainly a casualty here as the BBC are desperately trying to curry favour once more with the Ibrox outfit and get a stadium ban lifted. But who do you think has the power to direct the national broadcasters narrative?
Now look at the SFA and the 41 other Clubs in the SPFL. We all know that there were dirty deeds done in 2012. Just HOW dirty we may never know because it seems that ALL member clubs have lost their collective tongues. Apart from the initial jolt they got when faced with the withdrawal of season ticket money they have been absolutely silent. Who has the power to keep them all quiet? Think about this. The withdrawal of season ticket money would really only affect a few of the top teams as most others rely on matchday income so it wasn’t the threat of the withdrawing of ST income from most clubs that gave the supporters the upper hand at the time. It was the 100% withdrawal of their support and not the ST element within that support. End of. So how did the clubs get from being onside with their own support to once again be at a daggers drawn? Who decides the clubs narrative in this clustercuff? Why the deafening silence?
And so on to, in my mind, the big issue. Celtic FC. In the beginning they played the ‘silent’ routine explaining that it was for the safety of Celtic fans that they refused to get embroiled in the issue. Steadfastly refusing to rock the boat. They had their own stand alone policy, did not need any one else for them to prosper, yada yada yada. Then a statement announcing that they were losing £x amount of pounds due to the vanishing Ibrox outfit. This maybe should have set alarm bells ringing around the support. It didn’t. The media pounced on it and still wheel it out every so often as it fits the new narrative that they have been given. Celtic needs Rangers. As the years have rolled on the utter silence from the CFC Board has been, at the least frustrating but there was always the promise of action further down the line when the BTC was eventually decided or, for most fans when Celtic get Resolution 12 sorted out with the governing bodies. Corruption would be uncovered for all to see. Some fans have put a huge effort into Res 12 and gathering all the info that the Club should have collected themselves. The club made promises to ensure that Res 12 would be attended to in the proper manner. Now? Nothing. They have done nothing but drag their heels for so long it seems that the time limit for appeal to UEFA is about to run out. So. Who decided to bury Res 12? Celtic FC? Who keeps the utterly incompetent SFA and SPFL bodies in a job that seems to be beyond their own capability. How far does the actual corruption tentacles in Scotland reach. Aberdeen FC. Mr Milnes recent public backing of TRFC etc. Anything to do with a helping hand with the land required for new stadium? What group has all this power in Scotland? Who really runs Scottish Football?
Good Morning all. Yesterday I posted that I still intended to renew me and my boy’s season tickets, albeit with a very heavy heart.
Having slept on it, and having read reams of stuff on res 12 on here and elsewhere, I have changed my mind.
I am now undecided – this is breaking my heart! I would ideally like to be part of some kind of action that would make the board at Celtic Park realise that they have just scored a massive own goal. But what to do?
I think I’m cracking up due to this, but I’ll just try and ‘Live in the day’ as they say, and not project as I may
feel different tomorrow or things may change for the better… you never know… or maybe not.
Anyways, I’m truly torn apart! Thanks Mr Lawwell and co.
Carfin’s Finest,
I doubt that there is an organised group or unseen hand at work here.
Two possibilities spring to mind.
Firstly, the obvious one – money. we have always been of the collective opinion on SFM that following the money would shed more light on the darkness than anything else.
I think that the genuine fear of the loss of revenue drove the SFA integrity bus into the wall. However it is difficult to see how a conspiracy of silence could be maintained – bearing in mind that not everyone is equally affected by the financial consequences of Rangers’ liquidation.
As an aside, those who think Fergus McCann would have had a different attitude are barking up the wrong tree. I know with some certainty that Fergus’s opinion was that the fans’ bluff should have been called and that the new club should have been given an SPL share.
The second possibility is knowledge of corruption, incidental or wholescale. I have always been of the opinion that Rangers old and new have held an incommensurate amount of power over the press and the authorities. If they were to have knowledge of wrongdoing by individuals or organisations – well that would certainly give them a lot of leverage.
Football has never had the reputation of being a clean sport. The culture of brown paper bags stuffed with tenners or director contracts or bungs has never been completely eradicated (and of course there are the smoke-filled room meetings where strong-arming of the SFL clubs took place and title and history trading were discussed).
One would think that the silence of the bigger clubs like Celtic, Aberdeen, and Hearts (in particular but not exclusively) amounts to self harming, but I would think their silence is (as is any action they take) more in keeping with self-protection. What we don’t know or understand is what they are protecting themselves from.
Their best weapon in this fight is that our lack of understanding or knowledge of the reasons gives rise to a range of theories from the moderate to the wild ends of the spectrum. From their point of view, the wilder the better.
Wilder than “no sporting advantage”? Wilder than “surviving liquidation” or “being sold out of liquidation”?
I don’t think so. My own bet is that the combination of loss of revenue and skeleton-bearing closets being unlocked caused an even deeper corruption (this time corrupting the every fundamentals of the sport) to take place.
As we are not a Celtic blog, I don’t think it is fair to single Celtic out, but for what it is worth, I have never had any doubt that Celtic were trading on the good faith of the Res 12 people to allow them to kick the ball into the long grass again and again. To an extent, the tenacity of the shareholders who took the Res 12 issue to the AGM has showed up Celtic in a poor light. The Celtic board’s misfortune is that wider share ownership model of their club (part of the McCann legacy) and the tenacity of those such as Auldheid made Res 12 possible in the first place.
I’ve enjoyed coming on here for years now. I’ve enjoyed hearing things from the “other” side as it were, the multi-club flavour of the place let you peek into how fans of other clubs see things. Sure there have been disagreements that can be split purely down club devotions, I’ve been responsible myself for a few er.. debates that have gone that way. However, the over-riding outcome was that “ach there not so bad after all”. A positive (although we all deep down kinda knew that anyway)!
Then there was yesterday. That positive has been pretty much wiped out by the board of Celtic PLC. Unfortunately, now the default position for most of the remaining 40 clubs returns to “two cheeks, each as bad as the other”. I know that isn’t true for a sizeable proportion of the Celtic fan base (and indeed a proportion of the TRFC fan base).
I also know that it is wrong to just point the finger of blame at Celtic. But, given the unwillingness of any club (outside perhaps the fine folks at Kirkcaldy) to speak out, there was never any risk of a movement growing to sort out the SFA/SPFL unless Celtic were at least active participants. I think yesterday made it perfectly clear that Celtic board were at best unwilling and frankly yesterdays shameful announcements make it clear they were probably in cahoots with the TRFC/SFA cabal all along.
In short, unless something dramatic happens (and soon!) things for the remaining 40 will return to default – the 2 cheeks, can’t live without each other, can’t work for the common good of scottish football, etc etc. Bleeds into all sorts – the state of refereeing, the cup draws, the award of games to certain stadia, the timing of games, the Scotland squads, appeal panels .You can’t blame anyone for thinking its rotten to the core. TRFC/CFC/SFA/SPFL – how long have they been working together on project armageddon? Ironically, now they reach what they thought would be the end game, armageddon is more likely than ever.
You know the most worrying part of that – it is an uncomfortable and unavoidable truth I’m afraid. Bigotry and sectarian hatred is alive and well in Scottish football and actively being nurtured by the authorities.
So that’s where we are now. Most people on here, irrespective of which club they support, feel Rangers cheated and should not have been allowed to compete in European competition in the last year of their existence. They owed tax, no if’s no buts they had outstanding taxes due, however they still got a licence to play in Europe.
However the Celtic board are the only people who can complain about this to either the SFA or to UEFA. Every other club, every other board is exempt. In fact supporters of every other club, who choose to comment, think it’s fine to deride the Celtic board for doing nothing. If anyone has had a pop at the Hearts board, the Hibs board, the Aberdeen board or anyone else I must have missed it. Can someone tell me if they have raised a formal complaint with any of the relevant bodies.
Rangers cheated, the SFA helped them, let’s have a go at Celtic.
Homunculus 11th March 2016 at 9:16 am #
Without Celtic on board what chance have the remaining clubs got of achieving anything? Plenty you say? They would have to go out on a limb, the SMSM certainly wouldn’t back them, the SFA, SPFL, TRFC and CFC behemoths would be against them. Project fear fronted by Doncaster will have imagined all manner of deaths for the smaller clubs, many of whom have no realistic aims of playing up there with the big boys so why would they want to risk all. Thats what the men paid to look after the Scottish game were telling them, don’t rock the boat or were finished.
With Celtic on board almost anything could have been achieved.
The Celtic board have misled the Res12 folks for years, gave them enough crumbs to keep them satisfied until now. Now that time is running out they decide to break cover and admit they aren’t going to do anything. Now that it is probably too late for anyone to do anything.
Yes other boards should have been more active, more vocal. Yesterday makes it pretty obvious to me that the Celtic board were not only not willing to rock the boat, they were actively attaching outriggers and supporting the good ship TRFC back to its “rightful place”. Maybe the two clubs were alone in this, maybe other clubs (including Aberden) were in on it from the start. This announcement yesterday was however, the first statement we have had from any club that shows that clubs were complicit with the SFA/SPFL plans
Trust me, I’d be very happy to be proven wrong. Very happy indeed. All the Celtic board have to do is come out and tell us. I’ll not hold my breath.
yakutsuki 11th March 2016 at 8:30 am #
Good Morning all. Yesterday I posted that I still intended to renew me and my boy’s season tickets, albeit with a very heavy heart……
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I emailed Celtic FC yesterday with my thoughts on this|
I ask others to do the same.
No reply as yet?.
As a Celtic fan of 40 years I feel extremely let down by Lawell and the board over the Res 12 issue.
I will however continue to go along and support the team. The current custodians may not be to my liking but my love for the club goes deeper than them.
I will voice my displeasure in any way that I can and i will support those with louder voices and better access than myself. However I won’t be able to bring myself to withdraw my support for Celtic.
I intend being at Hampden for the cup semi-final. It matters not to me who we are playing.
Homunculus,
Not for the first time, you are having a go at people for taking a view, instead of arguing the substantive issue. Please don’t do that.
It is difficult for me to tell whether you really believe it when you you say everyone is having a go unfairly at Celtic. In fact most observers here are of the view that Celtic should not be singled out for criticism, and we do rather walk on the eggshells of some Celtic fans’ sensibilities when we discuss this.
If you are saying that we can’t form a negative opinion on the news from the shareholders who ran the Resolution 12 campaign because nobody else had a Res 12 equivalent, then that would sound very like the whatabouttery we have been hearing from Rangers fans throughout this saga.
Clearly, Celtic fans involved in Resolution 12 are unhappy with the board. The rest of us are despondent about that. If we all want to defend our respective clubs’ inaction on the basis that no-one else is doing anything, then that’s exactly what will happen – nothing.
There is a plausible and logical (if not totally persuasive case) that Celtic, as the club who suffered most financially due to Rangers’ behaviour, should have been in the vanguard of the campaign to address the issue. I don’t share that view, but to draw an anti-Celtic inference from anyone who does, or from anything that has been said on SFM, is unfair and inaccurate.
I think fans of other clubs, notably Aberdeen, have been critical of their own club’s inaction on this matter. In fact I would go as far as to say that they have been far more vocal in their criticism of their club than any other fan group.
Don’t forget it is Celtic fans who are having a ‘go’ at Celtic here – and in my opinion with good reason.
Yes, Rangers cheated. It has however been my long held view that every other club in Scotland is complicit – through their silence – in allowing the cheating to go unchallenged and in allowing the conditions which encouraged that cheating to persist.
Nobody, other than Turnbull Hutton, is innocent. It’s time we took a leaf out of the Aberdeen fans’ book and set partisan considerations aside for the greater good of the game.
This is not about Rangers any more – nor has it been for some time. It is about the systematic corruption that we suspect – know – exists in Scotland. If the focus is only ever on Rangers, our motives are suspect, and our direction is wayward.
” They say the darkest hour, is right before the dawn” is a line from Dylan’s (Bob) Meet Me In The Morning. We are still in the dark as far as the truth being acknowledged but far too much work has been done to let go now. A constant nagging reminder will eventually pay dividends. How many of us have delayed going to the dentist through the liberal application of oil of cloves and paracetamol before giving in ? And please don’t forget there is the small matter of several court cases to be resolved. Who knows what that new dawn will bring.
” Do not go gently into that good night” Dylan (Thomas)
Ex Ludo.
I agree with your optimism. The fact is that we KNOW the situation regarding Rangers unearthed the inherent corruption in the game. The freemasonry (small f small m) that is the Scottish Football establishment has closed ranks because allowing RFC to get away with their flagrant breaches of the rules is a less negative outcome for them that losing their control of the game – which would be an inevitable consequence of taking appropriate action.
The problem for the authorities is that we can’t now un-know these facts. The genie won’t go back into the bottle.
Their best hope now is that we are all successfully portrayed as flat earthers and will be laughed out of town. Problematically for them though, the flat earth theory can be easily and demonstrably shot out of the sky. Ours can’t be disproved – because it is in fact true.
Success may not arrive tomorrow or next week, but we will not go away. Why? Because we KNOW.
I have a sense that we are in danger of being split apart by a blame culture and inter-club rivalry. We run the risk of losing the common purpose and consensus about poor governance that has been SFM’s great strength and distinctiveness.
We cannot and should not blame one specific club or even a group of ‘big’ clubs. All senior clubs have been complicit to a greater or lesser extent. The uncomfortable truth is that the SFA and SPFL are both reflections of their members. Doncaster, Regan et al have survived because their members go along with the omnishambles and fraud for their own narrow interests.
Isolated decisions about whether to withdraw support may be heart-wrenching for individuals but are unlikely to have much impact. Only some form of collective action is likely to produce change.
There’s an interesting article in today’s Independent on how supporters put tribal loyalties aside in favour of the greater good to persuade BPL clubs to cap away ticket prices.
But even that single-issue battle took 3 years to win (and arguably would not have been won at all without the sudden shock of the Anfield walkout).
Let’s not kid ourselves that the likes of Peter Lawwell, Stewart Milne, Stephen Thompson, Rod Petrie (and yes, even Ann Budge) are going to leap to clean the Augean stables at Hampden just because a few dissatisfied consumers threaten to withdraw their custom. Only sustained, organised and focused action is likely to make a difference.
Celtic have made their position known, but not what their reason’s are. Let’s leave it at that for the time being.
The Res 12 Bhoys, over several years have worked tirelessly, and without fear or favour, providing a service to the game in their efforts to expose dodgy dealings.
Word is, the letter will be winging its way to UEFA HQ before the shut-off….. Chapeau!!!!!
Whatever Celtic, (my club) or any other club’s stance on this, and why they have taken it, is irrelevant right now. The important thing is a UEFA investigation into corruption in our game.
We do all understand this………Don’t we?
If any clubs do not want to get involved due to any corruption on their part being exposed, then Hell mend them ! Like Rangers(I.L), they will have brought it on themselves.
I for one would like to express my sincere thanks to the Bhoys of the Res 12, and their tenacity in getting to this stage.
We all want the game cleaned up. We all want the same thing ! Don’t be distracted by finger pointing and club allegiances. It’s time to give our full, and undivided support to the Bhoys of Res 12.
Go get ’em Bhoys !!!!……..I’m with you !
And thanks again for all you have done !
Big Pink 11th March 2016 at 10:49 am #
Homunculus,
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Very well put Big Pink. I was looking to reply to Homunculus’s post but you beat me to it!
Other clubs fans had little or no interest in the issue regarding Res 12 but they should certainly have massive a interest in bringing to account those responsible for allowing the same club propaganda c**p to be continued with the clear aim of exhausting those who oppose it in to submission. My personal fear though is that they are succeeding. I also believe that ALL of our clubs are directly or indirectly complicit. The only way to turn them, non-renewal of ST’s and non attendance at matches, is NOT going to happen in sufficient numbers because your average fan, particularly the younger ones, just wants to support his/her team and (hopefully) enjoy a day out. I have 3 sons, all Dons fans despite never having experienced the “glory” years and not growing up in or near Aberdeen, who are frankly not too interested in the thoughts of the auld faither on all of the things that get talked about on this forum. That bloody glass is half empty again!
A Res 12 update.
http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/res-12-the-journey-so-far-and-the-journey-to-come/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Kopweb,
I agree 100% with what you say. I don’t think we should conclude that Celtic are being single out here. As you say, and I think I also said earlier, they (the clubs) are all to blame.
The circumstances surrounding BRTH’s post on CQN yesterday merely highlights one club (Celtic’s) failure to address the matter. The discussion surrounding that does not reflect badly on SFM posters, just that it happened to be current.
If we allow these kinds of things to split us, then you have to say that we will have got what we deserved. However I think our resolve, and the good faith in which we carry out our business as a group will ensure that never happens.
On occasion, but not too often, it is a job holding a coalition like SFM together, but most of our number recognise the need not to rush to take offence. To do so makes an assumption that others are acting subversively, and not with that good faith. SFM is not a good fit for people who make those assumptions.
While res12 seems to be taking a backward step I can report that a document has been sent to three officials at UEFA as a result if the petition. Copies have also been sent to the Spanish FA(because of Malaga), the Turkish FA(Galatasary), the Sports Integrity Initiative, both the MSP and MP responsible for sport, the SFA, the SPFL, Ladbrokes, every Premiership club and every UK national newspaper, BBC, ITV, and Channel 4. Surely somewhere in that group someone will sit up and start to take notice.
But that cannot be the end of it. 2000 signatures is nowhere near enough. Help get the count higher.
get someone to SIGN the PETITION
https://www.change.org/p/scottish-football-association-return-integrity-to-football-administration-in-scotland-94421b40-2d6b-4d4b-9cff-912c9849478f
As a supporter of HMFC (albeit from a distance but who is one of the 8,000 or so supporters who pays a monthly contribution to get the club into fan ownership) it depresses me that we have heard so little from HMFC.
My take on things are that if there is no meaningful action from HMFC on the Rangers/Sevco situation (once the BDO appeal is settled) then I will be walking away from FoH. I am not interested in who owns HMFC if we have to accept this intolerable situation whereby Scottish football governance is a sham and the game is run for the benefit of one club.
It’s sadly predictable that CFC don’t appear to be too willing to do anything about Res12 – can anyone think of any other business (other than Scottish football) where there is a prima facie case of a business losing millions of pounds in revenue because of the unacceptable behaviour of it’s biggest competitor – and nothing is done ? Is the behavior of the football “authorities” not an abrogation of responsibility and anti competitive ?
How can the football business be immune from scrutiny and external governance ? To my mind (Scottish) football needs external governance because it cannot be trusted (could it ever ?) to act fairly and impartially. It demonstrably acts against the interest of its member clubs and its customers. What other regulatory body in the business world would get away with this ?
But this is Scotland. There is no mention of any of this in the media – or if it is mentioned , it’s spun in such a way that you can’t trust a word that is printed.
At the outset I was annoyed that CFC supporters were somewhat relaxed about the idea that CFC should pick up the gauntlet and start to challenge the SFA/SPL on the various issues we have discussed over that last 4 years. I do feel that Celtic has , by far, suffered the biggest financial losses. But from a business pint of view, CFC seem unwilling to (at least, publicly) have the “authorities” address this ? Celtic don’t need to crusade on behalf of Scottish football (I did originally feel otherwise, as I felt this was the most lilely scenario to get the changes we all want) but surely they should be doing so to protect their own (business) interests ? Please don’t misunderstand me : I’m not anti CFC and certainly not anti fans of CFC but I am amazed at how little CFC seems to have done in the last 4 years.
I can’t help feeling that if this was Barca/Real or Liverpool/Man U we were talking about that the media in Scotland wouldn’t be reporting it somewhat differently. In the case of Scotland it seems there is barely a mention of it (and not without spin).
So to return to my original point : HMFC and Ann Budge should be thinking about where we are really at.
It’s all well and good pontificating on the behaviour of rival fans or the fiasco of the League Cup format. I want to see HMFC talking about the things that REALLY matter. To us all who care about football.
Paints things in a slightly different light to the initial reporting. But still leaves you asking – why are the board unwilling to pursue this to its natural end? Why bother even taking it this far? Especially when the talk is that they knew that it was likely to reach the position.
Also, there was much talk yesterday that the board had sat on the responses from the SFA for several month before the resolution 12 crew got their hands on it. Is that not the case?
Much thumb downing for my previous messages. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest, but I do wonder which part the disagreement was with? I hasten to add that my beef is with the SFA, not Celtic. However, it will be with Celtic and with every other club found to be complicit in the desire to continue to defraud fans. Lets not forget an obscene amount of money has already been extricated from fans through years of “just short of match-fixing”. I would not be at all surprised if such a case is uncovered and that my own club are in it up to their short-and-curlies. One can only hope….
An update report on Res12 on CQN
http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/res-12-the-journey-so-far-and-the-journey-to-come/
Note that for all the focus is on Celtic and UEFA, it is the SFA who can bring the matter to a close by answering the bloody letter.
Please ask your club to seek clarification from SFA of their behaviour in this matter from 2011 to date.
tearsofjoy 11th March 2016 at 12:13 pm #
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Vlad may have been Mad but he was not always wrong!!
Hi,
Long time lurker, and first time poster.
I don’t pretend to know all the facts about Res12 but the latest update posted on CQN disturbs me somewhat. I’m not a regular reader of CQN and don’t intend to change that so I though I would post here.
I’m struggling to get my head around the shareholders’ view that the club has done everything they could have to assist when progress has been (on the face of it at least) very slow. Obviously I don’t have the full picture and I’m in no way accusing anyone of being disingenuous but I have the following questions:
1. After the SFA refused to answer questions submitted through the shareholders’ lawyers did Celtic then ask those questions themselves? If not, why not?
2. If Celtic did ask those questions have they been regularly chasing up answers? If not, why not?
3. If they have been chasing answers, why not go public that the game’s governing body are refusing to give answers to a member club? (Fear of negative press is not an appropriate answer here)
4. If it is accepted that once the shareholders contact UEFA, the issue will come round to the club eventually (if UEFA actually respond to the shareholders – past record suggests otherwise), why do the club not cut out the middle man and contact UEFA?
5. How close is the issue to being time barred, have to think it must be pretty close? If so is the club’s refusal to contact UEFA themselves making time barring a genuine threat to the desired outcome?
6. Although Res12 is a Celtic resolution, the overall issue affects several clubs. Is there any way of involving these other clubs (and their supporters) in this venture?
Big Pink ( from earlier)
Thanks. The Truth doesn’t have to be invented. There is always strength in that.
I must admit to some frustration when I read that people are waiting for the outcome of court cases/appeals till they act. The court cases/appeals are in the main related to the club but the culprits that should engage everyone are the SFA and SPFL. This is not, as others have said, about a club it is about the environment created in the sport and the misuse of “discretion” in applying the laws of the sport. We can move on these issues NOW. There is so much that can be dealt with without breaching subjudice laws.
Don’t put off till tomorrow what can be done today because all that will happen is that more strength is put behind the ” Oh that is all in the past, it is time to move on.” opposition.
I would love to say that I have the magic answer that will correct all this but I don’t. The petition, especially when only 2000 sign, is not a magic bullet and if anyone can come up with a better move then let’s hear it. Be prepared to act though as all the hot air we have had so far has been useless.
The document I mentioned in the earlier post is very unlikely to be anymore than a starting point but until we get the tip of the crowbar into this mess we have no chance of pushing it in far enough to allow the purchase that will break the door down.
Do not look to others to do this for you, especially the clubs, because they will only act if we instill them with a fear. I have always said that this will be action by the fans and them alone that will achieve what the majority of us want. The talking has to stop.
Unfortunately, the biggest driver here is money. Always has been, always will be. However much we howl at corruption and injustice, the authorities are only interested in bringing in funds. Yesterday’s Celtic statement was pretty much a confirmation of what we always knew. They didn’t want resolution 12, and fought it all the way.
Celtic, and a good deal of other clubs, will only be happy when there’s a Rangers (any Rangers!) in the top division, and they can get back to selling the league on the back of an anachronistic freakshow.
The 2012 attempt to gerrymander them into the top league wasn’t done because of RRM in the SFA, or being the establishment’s favourite – it was done because the SFA, the SPFL, the other clubs and the TV companies believed that Scottish football without a Rangers (any Rangers, lest we forget) was a terrifying prospect. I live in England, and was constantly told ‘Well, Scottish football is just Rangers and Celtic, isn’t it?’. What I didn’t realise was that the football authorities believed the exact same.
BTW – I fully expect if, somehow, it had been Celtic that had got themselves into this mess, then the exact same would have happened. You can bet the coverage of it would have taken, shall we say, a less sympathetic angle, but so thoroughly had the authorities tied themselves to the Old Firm ship that to lose one of them would be unthinkable. For anyone currently going ‘Eh? What about 1993/4? They weren’t rushing to save us then.’ , I say it was a completely different football landscape back then. Celtic were no longer one of the main sides. Aberdeen and Motherwell were Rangers main rivals. Celtic were a basketcase, and not the sort of basketcase using other people’s money to paper over the cracks, either. With the introduction of the SPL, it was just about the Old Firm – the money for league placings, with 2nd wholly out of proportion with the rest of the league, tells you that.
Anyhoo, with the thumbs down section over, 2012 was a watershed. Without the threat of a fan boycott, things would have carried on as per, and I’m guessing the authorities are banking on a war of attrition, they reckon that fans threats are empty and they’ll eventually come back.
The most ironic bit is that the death of Rangers finally brought about the re-adjusting that Scottish football needed. Clubs are now living with their means, not reliant on the mythical full ground of an OF visit, and are, for the most part, no longer reliant on the bank. Now that they have proved they can live without the blue pound, they’re about to try and tie their fortunes to it again.
Auldheid 11th March 2016 at 12:24 pm
Note that for all the focus is on Celtic and UEFA, it is the SFA who can bring the matter to a close by answering the bloody letter.
Please ask your club to seek clarification from SFA of their behaviour in this matter from 2011 to date.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
I have total respect for the efforts of Auldheid & all the Res 12 team for staying with this and getting so far. It is for this reason that my frustration is so high at present, because it appears that all their efforts have been stymied thus far. And I also understand the desire to focus on the SFA, who we all know, are a complete shower of *****
However, none of this explains the failure of the Celtic PLC Board to pursue this as a member club, and to me looking in from the outside, with no inside knowledge or information, it looks like a total fudge, designed to waste time and frankly,not rock the boat too much.
Why will the PLC Board not pursue this as a club. Why can’t they generate some publicity about this & if nothing else, communicate this issue to the Celtic support at large & the wider community of Scottish Football, as a whole?
Why can’t they put pressure on the SFA & perhaps galvanise the same level of support that the “No to Newco” campaign had?
Am I asking too much?
Kopweb 11th March 2016 at 11:28 am #I have a sense that we are in danger of being split apart by a blame culture and inter-club rivalry. We run the risk of losing the common purpose and consensus about poor governance that has been SFM’s great strength and distinctiveness.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Agreed. We need to set club rivalries to one side and as part of that we shouldn’t be relying solely on Celtic and Aberdeen fans to lead. Others need to speak up.
My reading of the Res 12 position is that Celtic have worked with the Res 12 shareholders and have been active in directly asking the SFA to clarify and provide further information. The SFA have stonewalled and obfuscated and failed to address the concerns raised.
As a result of this the Res 12 shareholders want Celtic to take the complaint to UEFA but Celtic want the shareholders to do it instead which is odd given that so far they have worked together in querying the SFA. Having worked together it should be a logical step to take it to the next level but then that would cause a storm for the SFA and there are Celtic Directors in various SFA positions of importance.
The SFA are under seige and as fans we should continue to apply pressure where possible and keep them under seige. I hope the Res 12 people take the complaint to UEFA even if Celtic don’t want to support them in doing so. One day the truth will prevail. There are too many of us dedicated to exposing it.
tayred 11th March 2016 at 12:23 pm #Corrupt official 11th March 2016 at 11:56 am #A Res 12 update. http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/res-12-the-journey-so-far-and-the-journey-to-come/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitterPaints things in a slightly different light to the initial reporting. But still leaves you asking – why are the board unwilling to pursue this to its natural end? Why bother even taking it this far? Especially when the talk is that they knew that it was likely to reach the position.
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I can’t profess to know the answer to that TR, but as we know, Scottish fitba’ is a highly political beast, involving many underhand manouevres. Just a guess on my part, but the board of CFC are duty, and legally bound to act on share-holder instruction. That can give them an “arms length” advantage when it comes down to who is actually making the allegations.
TBH I have been a bit topsy-turvy since Celtic made their position known, swinging from walking away, to it’s time to give someone a right good (metaphorical) slap. (It has been for a long time to be fair).
I think Res 12 now provides the opportunity for us all to stand in line to slap, whatever crawls out of the wood-work…..Without fear or favour.
IF, and its a big IF, UEFA find the SFA acted willfully in contravening UEFA regulations, there will be punishments meted out. The extent of which would be guess-work.
However, IF, UEFA find that the allegations are without merit, then equally, I think it reasonable to conclude that whoever has made the allegations (or asked for answers to be more apt) did not do so with malicious intent, for that too would bring punishment.
If shareholders (and not CFC) demand the answers, or an investigation, then Celtic are legally obliged to assist I think it would be very difficult to attach any blame to them for merely meeting their legal obligations.
I think it also fair to mention, that Auldheid and his fellow Res 12 bhoys, know more than we do, and I trust them to act honourably.
The important thing right now, with the cut-off date so near, is to support this letter to UEFA. It may just lift the rock and expose all the scurrying beasties underneath.
Surely the boards of directors have a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of their clubs, not the other way around.
Perhaps they need to be reminded of that responsibility, especially those of Celtic, whose shareholders actually raised the issue at an AGM .
Big Pink 11th March 2016 at 10:49 am #Homunculus,
This is not about Rangers any more – nor has it been for some time. It is about the systematic corruption that we suspect – know – exists in Scotland. If the focus is only ever on Rangers, our motives are suspect, and our direction is wayward.
=============================================================
That is your opinion and you are totally entitled to express it. However I disagree, at least with the first part.
“This is not about Rangers any more – nor has it been for some time.” Yes, it is, in my opinion. Just because it is also about other things does not change that.
It is Rangers who cheated everyone else, and not for the first time. It is Rangers who didn’t pay their tax, tax they had agreed was due by that time. Tax they knew was due when they applied to play in Europe. It is Rangers who lied and cheated not anyone else.
I genuinely don’t understand at what point it became “not about Rangers any more”. Yes, there are other issues which have arisen, as you say the systematic corruption in Scottish football. I totally agree with that part. However that does not mean we lose sight of the fact that it is at least to an extent Rangers’ cheating which has brought that into focus.
Let’s not also lose sight ot the fact that every club, at least in the SPL (as was) suffered from their cheating. Had they not played in Europe which club would have been given a Europa place, which set of fans would have gotten to see their team compete on the European stage. Someone other than Celtic definitely lost out on a European place. If they had not been competing in Europe would they have been able to have the same players. Playing not only in Europe but in domestic competition as well. Would they have won as many games.
You seem to think I feel there is some sort of “ganging up against Celtic” on here. That is not my point. Every set of supporters, every club, should be up in arms against what happened. If it is just Celtic then it is easy for the papers and radio to make it a Celtic / Rangers thing. They couldn’t do that when every club in the SPL (other than Kilmarnock who abstained) voted against a new club being allowed into the SPL. The reason they couldn’t was that every club and their supporters (or the majority of them) was against it. This is quite similar, if it is just Celtic then the SFA and the media can simply put it down to spite from Celtic and petty spite at that. They cannot do that if it is every club.
Big Pink 11th March 2016 at 11:08 am # Ex Ludo.
I agree with your optimism. The fact is that we KNOW the situation regarding Rangers unearthed the inherent corruption in the game. The freemasonry (small f small m) that is the Scottish Football establishment has closed ranks because allowing RFC to get away with their flagrant breaches of the rules is a less negative outcome for them that losing their control of the game – which would be an inevitable consequence of taking appropriate action.
The problem for the authorities is that we can’t now un-know these facts. The genie won’t go back into the bottle.
Their best hope now is that we are all successfully portrayed as flat earthers and will be laughed out of town. Problematically for them though, the flat earth theory can be easily and demonstrably shot out of the sky. Ours can’t be disproved – because it is in fact true.
Success may not arrive tomorrow or next week, but we will not go away. Why? Because we KNOW.
___________________
BP,
Not only do we know of the corruption, and who knows what corruption we don’t know of (unknown unknowns), no one, absolutely no one, from any of the participating agencies of the corruption cover-up, has made any more than the most cursory attempts to convince us that we are wrong. No documents have ever been produced to prove us wrong, yet they are surely there if we are wrong. On the other hand, documents have been produced to suggest corruption, but not once have they been challenged by those whose corruption was implied.
I have written before that the truth is easy to assert, easy to explain, easy to write. Lies are very difficult to put across to people who believe you are lying, so the sensible and wise (or well counselled) liar will say very little, other than to assert that he is right. Oh, and that we should all move on.
Auldheid 11th March 2016 at 12:24 pm #An update report on Res12 on CQN
http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/res-12-the-journey-so-far-and-the-journey-to-come/
==================================================================
Thanks for posting the link.
In my view that paints things in a different way to the discussions here over the last day or so.
I am sure there are things it would be inappropriate for chaps like yourself to talk about openly, as that might not be tactically sound. However, as always the hard work and perseverance is very much appreciated.
I have read (Corrupt official 11th March 2016 at 1:30 pm) and that makes a lot of sense to me.
Big Pink says
“As an aside, those who think Fergus McCann would have had a different attitude are barking up the wrong tree. I know with some certainty that Fergus’s opinion was that the fans’ bluff should have been called and that the new club should have been given an SPL share.”
BP It sounds like you are well acquainted with the “saviour” of Celtic, however was the (new) club how Fergus viewed it, or your own insertion?
I find it hard to believe a man who gambled a not insignificant amount of his own personal wealth, to avoid the demise of his own club via liquidation, would then go on to treat the new Govan incumbents as the same club.
Back in 2012, my belief was the deliberate maladministration, obfuscation and downright cheating of the Rangers board should have seen the club banned sine die from Scottish football. I can understand why the SFA, SPL, SFL and other clubs would not want this to happen, but the lying, twisting and unscrupulous dealings to avoid this do not sit well with me.
Had they been honest, admitted the facts, Rangers were no more, but a new Rangers were vital to the future of Scottish Football, (contrary to my belief), then I could have accepted the new entity. It would have then been for the other clubs to decide where this new entity was to start it’s football life. Even if the clubs had decided the best place for all concerned would have been straight into the SPL, I could have accepted that as being the club’s wishes, even though I believed it would be grossly unfair.
What I cannot accept is to be continually lied to by Governing bodies, press, (especially the BBC) and anyone else who tries to deny the facts to suit their own agendas. We are now three and a half years down the line and as far as most of Scottish football is concerned, “the fix is in”. Although in the last 3-4 years I have not contributed a thin dime to football or the newspaper industry, I still saw myself as a Celtic fan and watched games or highlights when I could, hoping always for my team to prevail. My patience is now wearing very thin and I am at the stage where I am ashamed to call myself a Celtic fan. I don’t believe for a minute they are not complicit in everything that disgusts me about this fiasco.
Fergus McCann was a fan and was also a very astute businessman, who saw the disastrous way Celtic were being run and had the foresight and belief to realise this giant of a football club should be so much better. I don’t believe for a minute though, he would be happy to sit back and witness this disgrace of administration without the courage to speak out and tell it how it is. I’m sure he would have done much more than make a pathetic Rory Bremner joke followed by a snidey little chuckle. Hell I almost wish Mad Vlad was still at the Tynecastle helm, (sorry Jambos) to hear what he would have had to say on the matter.
Well done to the Res 12 guys and to the Aberdeen fans who in their own small way, stood up against the corrupt SFA, while people with so much more power to influence proceedings do nothing. I would love to see the Celtic v Sevco semi final played out in a half filled stadium, but know this will not happen. For some fans this issue does not weigh heavy on their hearts and their day out supporting their team is more important. I have no problem with them, maybe I’m just of an age where other things are more important.
It’s very disappointing that the club are letting the Res. 12 petitioners down at the final hurdle. We are told that by and large the PLC is behind the resolution. If that is the case why don’t they put it before UEFA? They must surely know that it would carry much more weight than a shareholders group, no matter how well put together and presented.
Makes me think of a few scenarios. Speculative of course.
Dermott Desmond. Is he holding PL back on this and other issues? Remember he was the one who said ‘Rangers’ has a long and great history
Dear God where do you begin with that on so many levels? He wants TRFC back* in the top league. I don’t know why, he is far from skint, he doesn’t need the blue pound. Neither does CFC. Anyhow what Dermott wants Peter will deliver (or not as required).
Apart from the above, PL is of course on the SFA board. Has he became part of the establishment? Part of the ‘old boys network’? What a betrayal to his brothers at the SFA if he were to run to UEFA in order to bring them to account. Might Peter be brought to account in the same investigation? Would explain a lot. And maybe he doesn’t want to risk his future knighthood
.
Auldheid was I think speaking with tongue in cheek when he said the SFA could solve Res. 12 by answering the letter. Undoubtedly true but I don’t think the turkeys will vote for Christmas. Imagine being Regan & Co. knowing you botched it up big time in 2011 and 2012 and that at best, you sat silent instead of coming clean and undoing the damage that could be undone, or worse as someone mentioned earlier engaged in a cover up. It is the latter which will be your downfall in ignominy.
Of course all this speculation could be ended by some transparency, but as is said on here on a daily basis, I wont hold my breath.
Been busy but not commented for a while but have read plenty. Auldheid and team have done a great job and been persistent but the Board not being able to get to SFA or UEFA themselves and wanting others to do it is shameful.
which in itself would be ironic) but imagine the fall out of that. Where would the Celtic Board, SFA/SPFL and the shyster board (credit JJ) turn to cover their embarrassment? It might mean Scottish Football has to start again – armageddon – they would have called it right after all. Who would have thought it?
I agree that all the clubs are at fault because, apart from the late Turnbull Hutton’s intervention, they have done nothing else and all seem intent on having the blue pound back (although this time maybe learning lessons and trying not to break the bank of every club trying to compete).
However there is always a twist in the tale of every good movie so as it is Friday I wondered what could possibly go wrong. Imagine if UEFA do take an interest and investigate and found out about the scale of the deceit and as a consequence:
a) Banned Sevco/Rangers for many years; as they did with Malaga, Galatasaray and others but probably for longer
b) Banned Celtic from Europe for a number of years for not reporting what they knew (and any implied involvement in the cover up); and
c) Banned the Scotland national team from Europe because of the SFA/SPFL ineptitude/license issue and everything else they find in the Hampden bunker?
I know it is far fetched and that all other Scottish clubs might also get banned (hopefully not though
Then again with Dunblane being the world tennis champs and the rugby team slowly starting to improve, there is maybe an alternative on the horizon. Of course Andy losing to the Joker when they play Serbia in the next round and the inevitable media inquest on a 3-2 loss would probably be enough for him to tell them to stuff it as well, and relegation will follow quickly thereafter. It was only going to be short term anyway!
Onto cycling, …. Sir Chris….oh you retired………you on the bike………………………..ice hockey anyone?? TGIF
Don’t worry, with the new Scottish football finance environment created circa august 2012 the next one wont be far away. And a club, hopefully not mine, will welcome him with open arms since whats the worst that could happen? A three year secondment to the lower leagues?
jimbo 11th March 2016 at 2:18 pm
Jimbo, Don’t forget the old SFA get-out…….”We trust the clubs to comply honestly, Blah blah”
Say that now, and they have a get-out clause, by admitting that a kiddy-onny investigation revealed discrepancies, and that Rangers(I.L.) were less than honest in their submissions. A punishment would need to be applied to the “same club”, for a heinous act I would rate above match-fixing
Do not, and they can take their chances with UEFA.
Corrupt Official,
When it became common knowledge of the state of Rangers tax affairs, you are of course correct that they would/ could have used that get out clause. It’s a soft excuse but they could have used it to say We have been duped and as a consequence so were UEFA. Now lets see what can be done about it.
But they didn’t and that is where the silence and cover up gains traction.
Of course my own opinion is that everyone at Hampden knew at the time, not later, exactly what was what with regards to Rangers finances and Tax dues.
It appears to be an unfortunate fact that the forum represents only a (very) small subset of Scottish football fans, with the majority not that interested in anything other than turning up to support their team and wind up TRFC* about not being the same club.
Given our small numbers and resulting lack of impact, for example on attendances even if we were all to withdraw/walk out of games etc, can we find another way of publicising our views/information/evidence? Is it time for us to do something more public than talk among ourselves?
Is there any appetite to stage public demos of what we care about? We’ve seen at least a little publicity for the AFC fans’ protest at Hampden, for example. Even if a small number of us were to turn up in protest, say, at a Cove Rangers game, our small numbers would still be enough to stand out (sorry, CR fans) and at least cause some embarrassment to Mr MacRae and might even generate some MSM inches. Even if we didn’t want to challenge on the big issues, we could ridicule his meeting with JC, we could slate the cup draw nonsense, the EK cup venue, the aeroplane, the lack of drug testing etc etc on the basis of the SFA being shit at what they’re supposed to do. That might lead to some interest from the Press, response from the SFA etc and might lead to some debate when the bigger issues could be introduced.
Sorry, I don’t know what to do for the best, but it feels like the time is fast approaching where we need to do something more than we’re doing just now.
Homunculus
The board’s job is to protect the interests of the shareholders and that is what they will do. In that respect the board of Celtic PLC are doing a decent job. They are balancing the books, to a large extent through doing decent deals in the transfer market, obtaining excellent sponsorship packages and selling large numbers of season tickets.
well surely when shareholders where cheated out of the CL money and the board knew this,are the shareholders entitled to some monies? or at least an answer as to why they won’t get any?
With regard to BP’s comments re Fergus & wanting TRFC in the SPL…….if true( and again I have no reason to doubt it) then I’m afraid he’s wrong & he would be part of the problem & not part of the solution, as is, EVERYONE, who condones, colludes or accepts cheating.
End of…it’s that simple. I’m sick of obfuscation, of politicking, of mealy mouthed responses. It’s too late for that, the cheats are still running the game, the fix is in & my club are going along with it.
Just not good enough….
Cygnus X-1 11th March 2016 at 5:16 pm #With regard to BP’s comments re Fergus & wanting TRFC in the SPL…….if true( and again I have no reason to doubt it) then I’m afraid he’s wrong & he would be part of the problem & not part of the solution, as is, EVERYONE, who condones, colludes or accepts cheating.
==============
Well said. And if the clear collusion by other clubs (and I don’t care which ones) in the “resurrection” of TRFC and the associated cover-up is a result of TRFC and/or the authorities having access to some dirt relating to those clubs, then let’s have it all out in the open. If there has been widespread wrongdoing which has been swept under the Hampden carpet, the answer is to expose it, and deal with it, and that must include dealing with anyone involved in the cover-up.
Maybe the big secret is that Scottish football has been totally corrupt from top to bottom for years. If so, the paying customers are entitled to know. At that point a fresh start will be unavoidable. I really can’t see any other way forward.
Homunculus 11th March 2016 at 9:16 am
I don’t think people are having a go at Celtic. Merely that we are disappointed with the lack of progress re resolution 12.
I also don’t think you will find any disagreement from others that their own clubs could/ should be doing more.
However the political reality of it is like the ongoing US Presidential elections and the EU referendum.
Folks need a ‘big beast’ behind them to go into a fight if you want to have a chance of winning.
Without the big beast from the east end on board the rest of us would be as well farting in the wind.
OT
Dear Cat NR1
Can You pls ask that Nice Man Alex Neil to make sure that his team Beat Man City tmw and do my team a gr8 favor in our quest for a top 4 Finish in our Last Year playing at Upton Park.
Yours Sincerely
West Ham Fan NR33
Unless I have missed it, no poster has yet focused on this superb spoof letter, (attached below) ironically dated April Fool’s Day, from the Battered Bunnet on CQN today. In a few short lines, the Bunnet has captured the irony and tragedy of what is highly likely to happen if the Celtic Board drag their feet and lamely leave responsibility for action to their shareholders. Bunnet, I salute you!
While I’m at it, I would also like to thank Auldheid, Brogan Rogan, Canalamar and the others who have labored unceasingly on behalf of the truth. They should have our eternal gratitude. If they are betrayed by last minute treachery, it would be utterly unforgivable. I do not know what is going on behind the scenes, but if the denouement forecast by the Bunnet transpires, the Board may open Pandora’s Box. Many long term fans will simply walk away, and some have already told me so.
On the other hand, I am puzzled that a quick scroll through a blog aggregator such as Celtic News Now discloses almost no detail of Resolution 12. Most entries are from the MSM, so that is hardly surprising, but I suspect that the vast majority of fans are still in the dark vis-a-vis this issue.
THE BATTERED BUNNET on 11TH MARCH 2016 12:18 PM
Nyon
1st April 2016
Dear Resolutioners,
Thank you for bringing this matter to the attention of UEFA’s Club Financial Control Body. UEFA recognised some years ago that the future of the Game was inextricably linked to its financial sustainability, and thus UEFA Club Licensing criteria were established.
Club Licensing is a central element of the apparatus UEFA has implemented to to protect and foster the Game, and it’s fair administration is a prerequisite to a fair Game. We are committed to taking all alleged breaches seriously, and undertaking a full investigation.
From this perspective we are very grateful to you for highlighting the issues contained in your letter and attachments of 10th March.
However, under rule 37b subsection 4 paragraph 1, the CFCB can only be authorised to investigate failures in the processing and administration of Club Licensing following a decision of UEFA’s ExCo, itself subsequent to a formal request received from a Club in membership of a UEFA affiliated Football Association.
In view of this, we advise that you make your representations through the official channels described.
Please note that the deadline for receipt of such representations regarding licensing decisions taken for season 2011/12 is yesterday.
Sincerely,
UEFA CFCB
– See more at: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/res-12-the-journey-so-far-and-the-journey-to-come/comment-page-2/#comments
wottpi 11th March 2016 at 6:31 pm
========================
And as I said earlier, if it’s just Celtic without the support of the other clubs and fans then the SFA and media write it off as a Celtic v Rangers rivalry and Celtic just having a kick at another member club.
Where are the other clubs statements on this. Where are the other fan groups statements on this. Where are the other resolutions at AGMs regarding this issue. Where is the unity of purpose from all of the SPL clubs when the SFA and SPL tried to force the new club into that league.
They may be there but I haven’t seen them.
I have been accused of saying that people are having a go at Celtic. Maybe people should look at it the other way, this is an issue which effects everyone, where are the clubs and fan groups providing support.
neepheid 11th March 2016 at 6:23 pm
” I really can’t see any other way forward.”
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I know how you feel Neeps. I can think of no other sport, industry, or pursuit, where it is necessary to fight, cajole, dig and delve, and become a downright pain in the arse, just to get the right thing done.
However, a wee letter to your club of choice, demanding that the SFA, “Answer the fecking question” will either get the answer, or keep the door open for a UEFA investigation via the Res 12 letter.
Then we can see what comes out in the wash.
neepheid 11th March 2016 at 6:23 pm
Maybe the big secret is that Scottish football has been totally corrupt from top to bottom for years. If so, the paying customers are entitled to know. At that point a fresh start will be unavoidable. I really can’t see any other way forward.
———————
‘Jack Nicholson says “You want answers?”
Then Tom Cruise says “I think I’m entitled to them!”
Nicholson asks again “You want answers?”
To which Cruise replies “I want the truth!”
It is only then that Nicholson serves up the famous line “You can’t handle the truth!”‘
::
Sadly, I fear ‘neepheid’ may be right.
I don’t post very often but I do read everything written on here. I am utterly despondent right now.
I appreciate and understand all points of view re Resolution 12 and the question over whose responsibility it is to pursue an outcome to this issue.
IMO, and this is the opinion of an ordinary layperson, the CFC Board have made a huge mistake in leaving the Shareholders to contact UEFA with regard to Resolution 12.
I am not talking about a mistake with regard to financial implications. I am talking about a mistake re their morals and integrity.
“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.”
Desmond Tutu
Jingso.Jimsie 11th March 2016 at 7:44 pm #neepheid 11th March 2016 at 6:23 pm
Maybe the big secret is that Scottish football has been totally corrupt from top to bottom for years. If so, the paying customers are entitled to know. At that point a fresh start will be unavoidable. I really can’t see any other way forward.——————— ‘Jack Nicholson actually says “You want answers?”
Then Tom Cruise says “I think I’m entitled to them!”
Nicholson asks again “You want answers?” To which Cruise replies “I want the truth!”
It is only then that Nicholson serves up the famous line “You can’t handle the truth!”‘::
Sadly, I fear ‘neepheid’ may be right.
=====================================
…so do we continue indefinitely looking for “A Few Good Men” ?
Homunculus 11th March 2016 at 7:20 pm #wottpi 11th March 2016 at 6:31 pm ========================
And as I said earlier, if it’s just Celtic without the support of the other clubs and fans then the SFA and media write it off as a Celtic v Rangers rivalry and Celtic just having a kick at another member club.
Where are the other clubs statements on this. Where are the other fan groups statements on this. Where are the other resolutions at AGMs regarding this issue. Where is the unity of purpose from all of the SPL clubs when the SFA and SPL tried to force the new club into that league.
They may be there but I haven’t seen them.
I have been accused of saying that people are having a go at Celtic. Maybe people should look at it the other way, this is an issue which effects everyone, where are the clubs and fan groups providing support.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You need to remember that it wasn’t so long ago the League and its riches were stitched up and went to the big two. Who did the stitching?
Mibees the Diddy’s are a wee bit reluctant to throw their hat in the ring with Celtic (who haven’t actually thrown their hat in the ring either).
Its a slow process.
As we are unusually on the box tonight. I will just say before the stushies starts. McDonald should have been off for the elbow. Sometimes he does my head in.
Homunculus 11th March 2016 at 7:20 pm
Falkirk tannoy announcers, Livvi programme editors,, Turnbull Hutton, T’Rangers own director of communications and now PR consultant having pronounced them dead, fans of all Cubs not willing to put up with placement into either of the top tiers. Total distrust of Regan, Ogilvie and Doncaster from all. The stink of the 5 way agreement. Chancers like Green and King providing an open goal to aim at. Their own shareholders champing at the bit. Gary Harkins.
How many more hints did the Celtic board need to know there was a moment in time to act from a position of stregnth when others would have been more likely to join forces?
As I said I fully understand the issues involved and the difficulties the current Celtic board are under but as others have said I have the feeling the Bunnett may have taken a different approach.
As a parallel I don’t see a big beast like Andy Murray (and others) having much sympathy for Maria Sharipova and calling it as he sees it regardless of whether or not it damages his sport and his potential income. Some would argue he is speaking out to actually protect his sport and personal income.That may be cycnical view but he is speaking from a position of strength, when Sharipova looks like she has lots of explaining to do.
Fans of all clubs have to live with the decisions certain boards make at certain times. I am just sad that far too many chose to stand in the shadows.
I select various parts from BHTR’s piece which Paul B put on Celtic Quick News as was linked to earlier. As far as I am aware this is the most up to date and most definitive version of the current position.
I do this because I have nothing but respect for him, for Auldheid and for the others who are actually trying to do something.
http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/res-12-the-journey-so-far-and-the-journey-to-come/
In the intervening period of time, there have been numerous meetings and consistent correspondence between those shareholders and officials of Celtic PLC, all with a view to furthering the aims of Res 12, and there is no doubt that the Celtic board have played a full part in taking the resolution to where it now stands.
…
Working together, the board and the shareholders have seen to it that formal letters of enquiry have been sent to the SFA, together with various pieces of documentation and supporting evidence.
…
However, what is most important for everyone to know is that there can be no doubt that serious questions have been asked, were asked of the right people and were backed up by documentation prepared in conjunction with the board of Celtic PLC.
…
I have seen speculation yesterday that perhaps Celtic did not fully know of what was going on or that somehow there had not been full and forensic research completed into the matters concerned etc, or that Celtic PLC have done nothing to back the resolution. All of that is simply not true and at all times the Celtic PLC board have been party to, and have played their part in, the entire process.
…
Both the Celtic PLC board and the shareholders wish the matter to be referred to UEFA at this time, that is agreed, especially as there is a need to ensure that there is no prospect of any investigation being time barred by the UEFA rules which place a five year time limit for proceedings.
However, it is here that there is a divergence of opinion between the board and the shareholders. The shareholders believe that any reference to UEFA should come from the club, while the club would prefer the shareholders to refer the matter to UEFA in line with the previous enquiries made to the SFA.
However, I stress both parties have stated they want the matter placed before the appropriate UEFA committee.
As of yesterday, it was agreed that the Shareholders will formally write to UEFA via their solicitors, but they believe that ultimately this will be, and should be, a matter for the club as it is undoubtedly the case that any complaint to UEFA will have to make reference to the correspondence and answers already provided to Celtic PLC via the SFA.
…
Accordingly, once the matter goes to UEFA there is no prospect of the Celtic Board not being further involved.
…
If there is a clamour for greater representation and accountability for the ordinary football fan then they can lend their support to that – irrespective of what team the fan may support.
However, in relation to the particulars of Res 12, the shareholders have approached the board, worked with the board ( and acknowledge that the board have worked with them ) but ultimately it is for the PLC to take these matters to their final conclusion as the board of directors represent the whole PLC and speak with a far stronger corporate voice.
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If supporters, whether they be Celtic supporters or supporters of other clubs feel that the Celtic board have let them down then as I have said they are perfectly entitled to have and to express that opinion.
In saying that, I reserve the right to disagree with them. As far as I can see the Celtic support, working alongside the Celtic board have done more than anyone else to try to force this matter. As far as I can see they continue to do so.
I personally believe that there is a greater chance of success if other clubs and other supporters groups also take action. That would be much more difficult for UEFA to ignore, particularly if the SFA try to paint this to UEFA as a two club rivalry issue.
ianagain 11th March 2016 at 8:46 pm #As we are unusually on the box tonight. I will just say before the stushies starts. McDonald should have been off for the elbow. Sometimes he does my head in.
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Mate this isn’t the Truth Commission. He didn’t do my head in on Helicopter Sunday.
Bogs Dollox 11th March 2016 at 9:40 pm # ianagain 11th March 2016 at 8:46 pm #As we are unusually on the box tonight. I will just say before the stushies starts. McDonald should have been off for the elbow. Sometimes he does my head in. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mate this isn’t the Truth Commission. He didn’t do my head in on Helicopter Sunday.
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Anyhow cancelled out by Patons shocker in the 2nd.
SIWY
COYW
What I don’t understand is why CFC want the shareholders to take this up with UEFA, rather than doing it themselves. Surely UEFA are likely to tell the shareholders to take it up with CFC. I just can’t imagine UEFA dealing directly with a minority group of shareholders. And wasn’t that exactly the response that the SFA gave the shareholders?
And something else I don’t understand. How can it take three years to get to this point? And are CFC and the shareholder group really waiting for answers to specific questions from the SFA? From what I read tonight on a Celtic forum, the SFA are refusing to answer the specific points raised in a letter dated 23 July 2015. How is that possible? Can the SFA just blank one of their own members? To me, that is incredible.
The problem for me is that all of this being conducted in the dark and behind closed doors. It is time that the SFA were put on the spot publicly, if they really are the source of delay.
For a start, how about putting the precise timeline of correspondence in this matter into the public domain. What objection could there possibly be to that? It would also be nice to know the questions in the letter of 23 July which the SFA are (allegedly) refusing to answer. Again, what’s the problem. Keeping matters confidential is fine, so long as there is a constructive dialogue. But if you are just being blanked, it’s time to go public. In my opinion.