1,978 thoughts on “Look Back to Look Forward”

1. 
   

   as Neepheid says, Law Financial / Worthington have no cash at all. The spurious £10m revaluation of Law Financial was used to cause a spike in the share price and allow Whyte and Earley controlled vehicles to dump a lot of their shares.
   Worthington has impressively managed to pass over a year in suspension with accounts well overdue.
2. 
   

   wottpi 1st March 2016 at 9:44 am 
   Kenny McIntyre and the BBC Scotland Sports Department can consider the oldco/newco debate over when they can successfully answer the following.
   If Rangers are the same club why and on what grounds did the footballing authorities treat them so despicably by placing them in the lowest tier and denying them fairly won prize money, a place in Europe and appropriate entry points to domestic cup competitions. If Rangers are a new club then why and on what grounds did the footballing authorities treat them so favourably by letting them join the professional ranks within weeks of being formed.
   If the answer to both is the ‘Five Way Agreement’ then this seems to be to be just as big a scandal as the carry on at Fifa where a ruling body makes up rules and financial decisions on the cuff to the benefit of some in the game as opposed to others.
   Surely that is something that cannot be left blowing in the wind by any serious journalist.

   Whilst I can’t fault anything you say wottpi  (am I the only one that wonders what that is/stands for btw?  Who are these people )

   You’ve got to watch about taking the entirely purist footballing stance on this and asking the above the points.  Ordinary Joe Bloggs doesn’t really care about 5WA or points deductions or anything else.  RFC were relegated is what they’re force fed so that is the view they’re going to take.  From that incorrect, entirely inaccurate but widely publicised perspective, to the ordinary Jo, the story has potentially “had its day.”

   It is as soon as you bring in the £168m debt figure that any jo should continue to be interested and is the angle that I, as a journalist, would take.  Anyone pushing the obsessed bampot line pushes the 5WA, the ethereal doodah and the various other lies competing in Clump’s race.  But they rarely mention anything about debt.  Funny that!

   Even if you strip out Kings debt (which wasn’t), Ticketus (which was but they deserved everything coming), BTC (appeal continuing) and the interest and fees on the BTC ‘debt’ you are still left with what?  £50 odd million in debt.  Anyone that has ever paid tax, or serviced and repaid debt in Scotland should ask themselves why the entity they’re being asked to accept as RFC (even if technically its not) should be allowed to welch on that debt and yet continue on as if nothing has happened.  No way has that story had its day, no matter how much Kenny# wishes it so.

   # to be fair I haven’t read the twitter exchange so apologies if Kenny makes this specific point.  Call it a shot in the dark that he doesn’t though!  
3. 
   

   Smugas 1st March 2016 at 1:02 pm #

   @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
   To do with the trams if I mind right?!  ??
4. 
   

   John Clark 1st March 2016 at 10:42 am 
         “I suspect that there are precious few of our SMSM football hacks , and especially few of those who work for BBC Radio Scotland,who could contemplate making such a claim without deservedly inviting scorn and mockery upon themselves.”
      —————————————————————————————————————–
     I don’t read politics John, so do not know of Peter Jones, but if he is as true to his own opinion, then he could be the very man to get his teeth into Scottish fitba governance. Especially if he has time on his hands. (Any idea why he “got his jotters?”)
       His claim also points to others within his profession, who have somewhat less integrity than him, and he would not have an issue calling them out and saying so.
      If the murky world of politics is his bag, then he would be like a wean in a sweetie shop in the snakery and corruption that is Scottish fitba.
      A lot of the hard work has been done by the very fine Bampots on here, and it should be a simple matter for him to satisfy himself the evidence is authentic and reliable. Even from a political angle, it is a story, with the hushed up involvement of the Scottish government, hundreds of millions of missing bank cash, and a prominent knight of the realm. 
      We somehow need to have these matters debated at a level above the SFA and its quasi-judicial football courts.  It’s like asking a bairn with chocolate smeared over his face if he has been at the biscuit tin.
     
5. 
   

   Corrupt official 1st March 2016 at 2:21 pm # John Clark 1st March 2016 at 10:42 am        “I suspect that there are precious few of our SMSM football hacks , and especially few of those who work for BBC Radio Scotland,who could contemplate making such a claim without deservedly inviting scorn and mockery upon themselves.”   —————————————————————————————————————–  I don’t read politics John, so do not know of Peter Jones, but if he is as true to his own opinion, then he could be the very man to get his teeth into Scottish fitba governance. Especially if he has time on his hands. (Any idea why he “got his jotters?”)     His claim also points to others within his profession, who have somewhat less integrity than him, and he would not have an issue calling them out and saying so.    If the murky world of politics is his bag, then he would be like a wean in a sweetie shop in the snakery and corruption that is Scottish fitba.    A lot of the hard work has been done by the very fine Bampots on here, and it should be a simple matter for him to satisfy himself the evidence is authentic and reliable. Even from a political angle, it is a story, with the hushed up involvement of the Scottish government, hundreds of millions of missing bank cash, and a prominent knight of the realm.     We somehow need to have these matters debated at a level above the SFA and its quasi-judicial football courts.  It’s like asking a bairn with chocolate smeared over his face if he has been at the biscuit tin.   ______________________

   And all we’d have to hope for is that he’s not a ‘Rangers’ man , for regardless of any dignity and integrity he may have shown within the world of politics, ‘Rangersness’ seems to transcend those qualities (almost) every time!
6. 
   

   Corrupt official 1st March 2016 at 2:21 pm
   ‘… (Any idea why he “got his jotters?”).
   ________
   In his own words, Jones says”When the telephone rang and I saw the editor was calling, I somehow instinctively knew the bell was tolling for me.”
   No doubt part of the downsizing I hope some of our less creditable journos may experience.
   Jones is setting up a website shortly so it looks like he’s going freelance.
   I was already thinking, like you, that his real investigative, probing, journalistic skills in the really dirty world of politics would, if applied to the ‘saga’, have the truth about  everything  from CO’s EBT knowledge to the nice little dinner dates, and from the story told to UEFA about social tax indebtedness to the propagation of the ridiculous ‘same club’ nonsense exposed in a couple of hours.
   If I were a rich man, I would commission him and Andrew Norfolk ( who took on the Police and Local politicians in exposing the Rotherham scandal) to work together like Woodward  and Bernstein to expose the disgrace that Scottish Football has become, and the men who caused that. From the beginning.
   It will be exposed, of course, perhaps later rather than sooner.  And the baddies know that. I doubt if there be  one of them who has not carefully prepared his own self-exculpatory story against the day of reckoning.
7. 
   

   Re Peter Jones – he was in my class at school , his background is in Economics & latterly was writing about specifically Scottish economics , was writing regular items in the run up to the referendum on North Sea oil etc . He has also had articles published in The Times re Scottish economics .
   From memory , I don’t think he is particularly interested in sport although his wife was a PE teacher (who I used to go out with many years ago) .
   Small world eh ?
8. 
   

   John Clark 1st March 2016 at 2:42 pm  
      “Jones is setting up a website shortly so it looks like he’s going freelance.”
      —————————————————————————————————————-
      I will look out for it John and maybe try to bend his ear. I’ll give him the heads up, when Niall Steerpike makes an appearance and get in his good books. 
9. 
   

   I’m sorry to see Peter Jones leaving the Scotsman but not surprised. He’s one of the growing list of departees from across all the paid-for printed titles and having just bought the wee Independent Johnston Press in particular have more journos than they know what to do with or can afford to pay.
   Peter sums it all up beautifully when he says in his piece “old school mainstream media types like me have been living on an iceberg, crowding together as it drifts south and shrinks”.
   The very stark reality is the media model we’ve all grown up with and got used to (and used to moaning about too) is broken.
   Looking forward all we can be sure of is that the rate of change will accelerate and there will be more “rationalisation”.

   Here’s a question for The Editor of The Record.

   Q. “How do you get a newspaper circulation up to 200,000 in Scotland?

   A. “Start with one that is selling over 700,000 and treat your football readers like they’re numpties”.

   You’ll find Peter’s article  http://www.scotsman.com/news/peter-jones-times-still-a-changing-for-journalism-1-4040076#ixzz41fHlo7xy 

    
10. 
    

    The sad thing about the collapse of the Scottish newspapers is that the talented, competent and honest journalists will be booted out first, while the likes of “Radar” and “Union” remain, to pander to the core demographic which their editors have bizarrely decided is where the money lies.
    I just hope that the real journalists can find a way to exploit their talents (and make a living, of course) within the new media landscape. Meanwhile, Radar, Union and their like will be ones putting the lights out in a few years time. They might have a future in the online fanzine industry- except, of course, there are much better fanzine writers out there. So unless Level5 come calling, it’s a bleak outlook for them.
11. 
    

    Bawsman

    This from UEFA FFP caught my eye.
    “In addition the CFCB have decided in numerous cases that the objectives of FFP can be best achieved by taking a rehabilitative approach rather than a punitive approach. This has led to the conclusion of settlement agreements between a club and the CFCB, combining certain financial contributions with numerous restrictive conditions, which provide a roadmap for clubs to reach break-even in the foreseeable future (see further detail in points 11–16).”
    
    This is something that the SFA are clearly failing to do with TRFC. They have the power to do so under domestic club licensing rules but for some reason TRFC are running on anything but break even.
    
    So why is it allowed? Why don’t challengers in the Championship not challenge TRFC’S  ability to play under a different set of licensing rules than they do? Unless of course they are also playing outside of club licensing constraints?
    Have Hearts yet got the Silver/Gold licence under the Finance category that SPFL rules require or are they still at Entry level?
    I’m not having a go at Hearts BTW just pointing out that Scottish football has been playing unfairly in financial terms for such a number of years it simply is in no position now to play a financially fair game.
    Going back to UEFA in 2011. Had an honest return been made to them in June 2011 then RFC would have failed Indicator 4. Tax due. You will note from UEFA site that one of the sanctions available was dismissal from the competition which  was a possibility then, but what was a certainty is that UEFA in September 2011 would have asked for Future Financial Forecasts just 5 months before RFC hit the buffers. At the same time UEFA decided no future financials required, HMRC were demanding to see future cash flow predictions!
    There was a lot going on in 2011 to try and save RFC and even more since covering up what was going on.
    The misgovernance that allowed 10 years of ebt cheating was bad enough but the covering up that has gone on since is what  allows McKintyre to ask if it’s time to move on. He must be prompted by the fear of what will become full public knowledge after the trials end, no matter their outcome.

    Oh I’ve a wee secret bet here.
    
    
    
12. 
    

    Come to think of it, it could actually be an opportune time for Regan and/or Doncaster to consider moving on to pastures new – before the start of next season. And mibbees even with a grateful, ‘golden’ cheerio !

    If, as expected IMO, there is a huge amount of unrest/nonsense/trouble during next season due to a new club’s introduction to the top league…then naturally fingers will be pointed ever more so at the Hampden numpties.

    But, if Regan and Doncaster have recently resigned, then, [in time-honoured fashion], they can get pinned with all – or most – of the blame by the remaining blazers.

    The blazers could also declare that “those guys who left messed up big time, but now we need to move on – and support our new CEO’s at the SFA & SPFL and their innovative, exciting visions for the future of Scottish football…”.  
    Or some such tosh.

    …and the Hampden mob will be encouraged that they can then try to get back to ‘how it was’ pre-2012 ! 

    
13. 
    

    Big Pink 2nd March 2016 at 5:20 pm # 
    On the Perth front……
    We are still NINE tickets short of the break even position
    ==================================
    Have you thought of inviting John James? He appears to be a reader of our site. 🙂

    Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
14. 
    

    Finloch 1st March 2016 at 3:35 pm

    I tend only to skim through the Scotsman website these days and, as Peter Jones says, I often see the comments boards filled with idiotic trash from many a contributor, especially on the political front.

    However I note that on his final column Mr Jones appears to converse and engage with some posters in the comment section.

    Was this a one off for his last column of was it something he did from time to time?

    I think people on here would have a better idea where sports journos were coming from and vice versa  if there was a bit more of an adult  two way dialogue. At present the call in element to Radio Scotland has been reduced and SSB  just gives you ear ache. Comments baoards on the Scotlsman sports pages  are full of people simply repeating ‘Rangers are dead / Oh no they are not’ ad nauseam with very little serious debate or discussion.

    Tom English did a few Q& A’s on the Scotsman a while back and although it was time limited and didn’t get too deep into matters it was a worthwhile exercise IMHO.
15. 
    

    redlichtie 1st March 2016 at 4:40 pm #
    ——————————————-
    John James stated the following in a comment on his latest blog:

    The charges have been deserted due to considerations that I cannot disclose. I am one of a group of five individuals who know what ensued at court. Three of the five are regular contributors to the SFM site.

    Now if JJ was one of five on the public benches when the charges were deserted, it would be fair and reasonable that he would know the reasons why. If he wasn’t present, then the information has been passed to him by another party, who would technically be in contempt. However, I’m pleased that JJ hasn’t disclosed the information into the public domain, so it is highly unlikely that any action would be taken.

    On his final point regarding the three SFM contributors, if his assertion is that the three were in court to hear the reasons for charges being deserted, then he is wrong, either by failing to identify the three, or that he wasn’t in court himself and has made an incorrect assumption.

    If JJ is happy to introduce himself to any of the three SFM contributors at a future court date, then I’m sure that all of us would be happy to discuss subjects of mutual interest.    
16. 
    

    naegreetin 1st March 2016 at 3:04 pm
    ‘..Re Peter Jones – he was in my class at school ………his wife was a PE teacher (who I used to go out with many years ago) .’
    ______
    Rhona??
17. 
    

    JC @ 7.23pm – I’m thinking Joan unless I am mistaken & it is a different Peter Jones
18. 
    

    From The Guardian ( A real newspaper) 19 August 2013:

    “Four months later, the board of the reconstituted Rangers entity (Rangers International Football Club) issued a statement saying Green and the club’s commercial director, Imran Ahmad, were to be the subject of an inquiry following allegations about their management of the club.
    And Green, now a “consultant” with Rangers, could possibly be ejected from that position too, a claim reported by the Record now that it has cast off its Ibrox cheerleading role. Or is it secretly cheerleading for a group within the club? Is it just not possible for it to be entirely impartial?
    Anyway, one single, simple fact emerges from all this – Rangers football club got into trouble a long time ago and the mainstream media, whether by commission or omission, failed to do its job. Rather than hold the people in charge to account, it acted as a spin-doctor.”

    30 months later, you still could not embarrass the editorial policy of the Scottish press.

    Yesterday I saw a back page of the Record ridiculing Ronnie Deila for changing his mind about  Boyata’s red card.

    Have they such short memories of their headlines “Rangers RIP?” What are they saying now, when it is allowed to be spoken about?

    Being hypocrites doesn’t even begin to explain it.
19. 
    

    naegreetin 1st March 2016 at 7:39 pm
    ‘…I’m thinking Joan unless I am mistaken & it is a different Peter Jones’
    ________
    I may be mistaken, of course. There is a comment on Joan McAlpine’s (SNP) blog a few years ago ( about political/journalistic/business connections, which refers to a journalist (peter Jones) being the husband of Rhona Brankin MSP ( as she was then).
    There might very well be two Scottish journalists called Peter Jones who write on politics/economics and who appear(ed) occasionally on Newsnight.  But this Peter William Jones married Rhona Margaret Brankin in Edinburgh in 1998, when she would have been about 48?
20. 
    

    easyJambo 1st March 2016 at 6:20 pm
    ‘…If JJ is happy to introduce himself to any of the three SFM contributors at a future court date then I’m sure that all of us would be happy to discuss subjects of mutual interest. .’
    _______
    Yes, indeed. Maybe see him on the 8th?
21. 
    

    Auldheid 1st March 2016 at 4:36 pm #
    ============================
    I never cease to be amazed at what TRFC/Sevco etc. gets away with.
    When Ashley funded the half a dozen ringers from Newcastle to buttress their failing promotion chase I was astounded that none of the promotion challengers uttered a word of protest at this blatant cheating.
    I also heard not a sound from the teams who desired to join the Scottish senior leagues when Sevco were shoehorned in.
    I’ve probably mentioned it before, I am a believer in karma, the Rangers will be scuppered in some kind of non related Al Capone scenario, something coming from left field and under the radar…… but terminal.
22. 
    

    As usual, apologies in advance. You may want to scroll down to the last two or three lines. 
    You will be aware the the SPFL is simply a re-branded SPL.
    You may also be aware that I have often criticized the LNS interpretation of a “Club” as it is described in the SPL (now SPFL) Articles of Association.
    The following extracts are taken from the current SPFL Articles. The wording and nomenclature has changed a little over the past few years; but everything here existed in broadly the same terms in 2011/12. 

    2. In these Articles:-
    2006 Act means the Companies Act 2006 including any statutory modification or re-enactments thereof for the time being in force;
    Club means the undertaking of an association football club, which is, for the time being, entitled, in accordance with the Rules, to participate in the League;
    holder in relation to Shares means a person whose name is entered in the register of Members of the Company as the holder of a Share;
    League means the combination of Clubs known as The Scottish Professional Football League operated by the Company in accordance with the Rules;
    Member means a person who or which is the holder of a Share;
    Share means a share of the Company and Share Capital and Shareholding shall be construed accordingly;
    Trustee means the Secretary or, if no Secretary is appointed or the Secretary refuses or is unable to act, such other person as may be nominated by the Board who shall act as trustee for the Members as a whole;
    7. A “person” includes a natural person, corporate or unincorporated body (whether or not having separate legal personality) and in the case of a natural person that person’s personal representatives and successors.
    12. Unless the context otherwise requires, words or expressions contained in these Articles bear the same meaning as in the 2006 Act but excluding any statutory modification thereof not in force when these Articles or the relevant parts thereof are adopted.
    13. Any capitalised word or phrase used in these Articles which is defined in the Rules and which is not defined in these Articles has the defined meaning ascribed to it in the Rules.
    19. A Share may only be issued, allotted, transferred to or held by a Trustee or a person who is the owner and operator of a Club.

    The following is taken from the Companies Act 2006

    1161 Meaning of “undertaking” and related expressions
    (1) In the Companies Acts“undertaking” means—
        (a) a body corporate or partnership, or
        (b) an unincorporated association carrying on a trade or business, with or without a view to profit.

    So, the SPFL/SPL definition:
    Club means the undertaking of an association football club, which is, for the time being, entitled, in accordance with the Rules, to participate in the League;
    should, in relation to most senior clubs, be interpreted as:
    Club means the body corporate of an association football club, which is, for the time being, entitled, in accordance with the Rules, to participate in the League;
    This, of course fits in with the definition UEFA give for licence applicants:
    …a football club, i.e. a legal entity fully responsible for a football team participating in national and international competitions…

    So why did the SPL then (and the SPFL now) not use the term body corporate or legal entity in its Articles? 
    Simple Really! Because not all clubs have been incorporated.
    Some senior clubs (Stranraer, Brechin & Annan) are unincorporated associations. These clubs have no legal personality but are currently competing in the SPFL and had at least the theoretical possibility of advancing to the SPL.

    Because the SPL (now SPFL) set itself up as a Company Limited by Shares and each of the clubs in the league hold a share in the company, there is some difficulty when the club has no legal personality.
    An unincorporated association cannot own anything in its own right. Assets are owned by real persons – usually committee members – who, by contract, hold those assets on behalf of the club. For unincorporated associations the holder of the SPL/SPFL share can only ever be a committee member.
    So, because the SPL/SPFL share cannot legally be held by an unincorporated club, some construct had to be created that allowed the Member (holder of a Share) to be described as the owner and operator of a Club.
    By using the expression “Club means the undertaking of an association football club” the SPL/SPFL cover both incorporated clubs and clubs which are unincorporated associations.
    Of course, in the vast majority of senior clubs (that are incorporated) there is no distinction anyway. The Member is the club. The Club owns and operates itself.

    With that said, it has come as some surprise then to learn that the SPFL appear to have issued three shares to unincorporated associations:
    Shareholding 17 – issued to Annan Athletic Football Club
    Shareholding 21 – issued to Brechin City Football Club
    Shareholding 42 – issued to Stranraer Football Club
    In these cases the unincorporated Clubs appear to be the Members in the eyes of the SPFL These Clubs presumably are recognised as owning and operating themselves.
    Even though legally, these unincorporated associations can’t own anything, the SPFL appear to think they own shares in its company and own and operate association football clubs. I truly do scratch my head in bewilderment.
    To be absolutely clear these unincorporated associations ARE association football clubs and are owned and operated by their respective members.
    Is it incompetence that appears to have allowed three SPFL shares to be issued to entities that cannot legally own them?
    Or is there some other reason?
    Sometimes you just don’t know where one lie (or honest mistake) will take you.
23. 
    

    jimbo 1st March 2016 at 8:50 pm #
    30 months later, you still could not embarrass the editorial policy of the Scottish press.
    Yesterday I saw a back page of the Record ridiculing Ronnie Deila for changing his mind about  Boyata’s red card.
    Have they such short memories of their headlines “Rangers RIP?” What are they saying now, when it is allowed to be spoken about?
    Being hypocrites doesn’t even begin to explain it.
    ————————————————————————————–
    Exactly my thinking too jimbo … At lunch time yesterday I opened the Evening Times Website on my mobile and clicked on the ‘sport’ link which brings up the biggest stories across the full spectrum of sport … this must be a new world record but i counted 13 links to Rangers stories and 3 links to English PL stories. There were no links to any other Scottish sports stories from the main sport section, this is totally unacceptable and without doubt biased coverage promoting 1 club above all else. When clicking on the link to Celtic stories, as you say the biggest story was how Deila was an embarrassment through changing his mind about a match changing decision that yet again has gone against Celtic. 
24. 
    

    I too logged onto the evening times yesterday, it was wall to wall with Sevco stories. I commented that it was more like a Sevco fanzine than a newspaper, this, of course was deleted. No problem, I won’t be back.
25. 
    

    HirsutePursuit 2nd March 2016 at 3:34 am #
    Unincorporated Associations! A source of fascination to me (but very few others, I guess) in my early years in the Inland Revenue. How could we assess and collect tax from these mysterious organisations with no legal existence? Well, of course, we could, by assessing the club secretary or some other named person, as trustee for the club. That was in England, so I found a Scottish law review which covers the position in Scotland. A link to the review (in PDF format) can be found here-
    http://www.scotlawcom.gov.uk/download_file/view/357/  or a summary here  http://www.scotlawcom.gov.uk/law-reform/law-reform-projects/completed-projects/unincorporated-associations/
    Interestingly, it  proposes changing the law to give legal status to unincorporated associations in Scotland.
    In the meantime, I assume that the three clubs who are unincorporated hold their SPFL shares via the club secretary or other named individual as trustee. It is a messy solution, especially if the trustee dies in post. Then all the “stuff” he/she held as trustee has to be transferred to their successor, presumably by the executors of the deceased’s estate- sounds like a juicy bit of legal work. It is quite surprising how much property (including valuable buildings and parcels of land) is held in this way on behalf of clubs.
26. 
    

    When will we ever see exposure and justice for all the dozens of issues surrounding Ibrox over the past 20 years?

    There are a few avenues.

    The MSM.  With a few exceptions – Alex Thomson, Roy Greenslade, Jim Spence, Tom English & Graham Spiers (these two half heartedly), as was stated in the clip I posted yesterday, the MSM are merely spin doctors for Rangers/ The Rangers.  So we can have no hope that they will expose the corruption in Scottish Football.

    Social Media.    Unfortunately we have little clout.  With the exception of the threatened boycott of season ticket sales in 2012 which was engineered on social media, there is little we can do.  But that is not to say that it is unimportant what sites like this do.  It gets the truth out there in the public domain unlike 20+ years ago when we relied on the complicit MSM.  It is why I think Big Pinks report that an archive is being inserted to this site a very good idea.  If for no other reason it creates a history of all that has happened for future generations.

    Fan Initiatives.  Like resolution 12 and the newspaper advert last year thanks to Auldheid & co.  Rec.12 really needs the full backing of Celtic FC.  So far it appears not to be fully engaged.  However Auldheid, restricted on what he is willing to say, has not given up hope.  So we can only hope that this is not being kicked into the long grass.

    The courts.  A few months ago I was filled with hope that all these various court cases, regardless of the outcomes would at the very least expose the individuals and their heinous corruption of Scottish Football.  With at least the resignation in disgrace of senior figures in the SFA & SPFL.
    But as time has gone on I am beginning to despair on this avenue.  Even Johnjames has began to rein in his previous confidence of how these cases would progress.  In the fraudco case indictment after indictment being dropped.  Although there is a school of thought that this is not unusual, begin with a scatter gun approach then redefine and hone in.

    The Football Authorities.  Well it goes without saying they are at the heart of the problem.  And knowing the sleekit cowardly characters involved, they are not suddenly going to have a road to Damascus moment and come clean.  One thing I really don’t understand is UEFAs turning a blind eye to all that has gone on.  But then again is UEFA squeaky clean?  Has Regan got pals in high places?  Wouldn’t surprise me.

    The only thing is it’s a developing story.  We don’t know what is around the corner.  With all the spivs involved you couldn’t second guess what any of them might come out with.  We shall see.
27. 
    

    I don’t know if anyone follows “The Knowledge” in the Guardian but it’s a fun, long running feature where the fitba nuts pose and answer obscure fitba facts.  The latest one asks who might be the most successful European club that no longer exists.  Predictably a couple of decent contributors suggest the original Rangers that entered liquidation in 2012.  Both contributions concise and well put.  The Guardian says that it will “back away from that one” more in the spirit of humour than anything else I suspect.
    The point is that the SMSM may well hope that this story will go away but as long as there are a few who resent the stuffing Scottish fitba has had (TSFM up there at the front I hope)  it will not. 
28. 
    

    Bawsman 2nd March 2016 at 9:37 am
    ‘…the evening times yesterday, it was wall to wall with Sevco stories.’
    ______________
    To be at all effective,propaganda sustaining a lie has to be unremitting.The liars cannot for one moment pause in their efforts to convince people that they are speaking the truth. They know that the truth cannot be destroyed but hope that constant repetition of the Lie will keep it from being revealed. Repressive political regimes are maintained on that principle, and find plenty of ‘journalists’ only too eager to assist.
    For a rack of succulent lamb, they would find plenty of such truth deniers in the ranks of our SMSM, bad cess to them.
29. 
    

    Sadly there is an obvious dropping off in the activity and the interest in this site as witnessed by the number of posts and the low uptake of tickets for the Perth event! Why do folk think this is?
    Do folk feel the battle has been lost and the constant SMSM repetition of Lies has succeeded?
    Is it the fact that Sevco, despite many predictions to the contrary, seem able to trundle on so people don’t have an admin event to look forward to? The site is Sevco centric after all although there is much more to discuss IRO football in Scotland!
    Our clubs are doing nothing and as discussed on here a week or so ago it will be interesting to see the match day programmes when Sevco visit (for it is surely no longer an if) and if they are “welcomed back” etc. The clubs are complicit in the whole thing in that they should control the authorities not be controlled by them! Maybe they are controlling them though?
    I will move on when the following is acknowledged:

    • Old Rangers are dead and there is a new club. There is no doubt that this new club with the size of support they have can be successful at some time in the future.
    • They cheated for many years (by using players not properly registered) and the titles / trophies won during this period are retrospectively recorded as null and void. I don’t think reallocation is appropriate.

    I think that only the other clubs can make this happen but they show no appetite for it.
30. 
    

    Good Afternoon
    I haven’t posted for a few months but I am still an avid reader.
    It looks as though the fix is in.
    I for one will not spend a single penny on football next year.
    The sheer hypocrisy of the SFA/SPFL has sickened me.
    I did warn, as did many others, that there was a danger of battle fatigue and that the lies would prevail.
    Without the resolve of the chairmen of the clubs there will be no removal of those responsible and the lies will continue to be told.
    We must do our best to ensure that they are reminded of the truth at every possible opportunity.
    I smell a rat with regards to the manoeuvrings surrounding the indictments.
    If the “switcheroo” does not come before the Court we will be stuck with the lies.
    If however it does come to Court it should end the argument about oldco/newco for ever.
    By Law no one is entitled to benefit from crime and if the switcheroo is established then this present version of “The Rangers” will come to an end.
    Unless of course the SFA/SPFL decide that this ethereal, metaphysical entity is separate from the company formerly known as Sevco Scotland and that it must be allowed to continue for the good of the game.
    If the letter of the Law is followed they should die again.
    Notwithstanding if it doesn’t come to Court it leaves Mr.Whyte and his associates to take a Civil action to recover what they regard as belonging to Sevco 5088.
    If BDO are refused leave to appeal them both King and Murray should resign immediately or be forced out  from TRIFC as they will have been held to have been directors at Rangers (IL)when an illegal tax evasion scheme was operated. In short they are not fit and proper.
     
     
     
31. 
    

    Going by supporter comments on other boards there seems to be a head of steam building up with Celtic fans only renewing their season tickets depending on the actions of D. Desmond & P. Lawell with regard to resolution 12 and the outcome of the EBTs case. 
    Fair enough that they would want to see some finality in the EBT appeal.  But not so resolution 12.  The DOS scheme was declared illegal and guilt admitted by Rangers.  So why the delay?   Celtic FC could bring this to a head today if they were so minded.  It baffles me why they don’t.  It makes you wonder if the tag ‘The Old Firm’ had more substance than we thought, they might just be as thick as thieves.  I hope not.
32. 
    

    bordersdon 2nd March 2016 at 12:38 pm
    ‘..The site is Sevco centric after all although there is much more to discuss IRO football in Scotland!.’
    _________
    That is because a) the site owes its origins to fact that we realised SDM had cheated massively ( never mind the tax thingy- that doesn’t matter an immediate damn:the cheat cheated us (or if I’m the only one, he cheated me) as football supporters, and cheated his fellow club owners.
    b) the same cheat has escaped (thus far) the kind of punishment -public shame and public disgrace-that is attached and has been attached to individual sporting cheats such as individual athletes
    c) worse than that, our very Football Authorities are complicit in doing dirty deals to create the lie that a liquidated club is still alive
    d) and possibly even worse, our SMSM has pointblank refused to ask any questions, do any kind of investigation, but instead has propagandised on behalf of the new club, sung dumb on the bad evil s.d who cheated us.
    I don’t give a tuppenny toss whether the new club survives. It is a rotten entity in its founders and in its succession of Directors. It exists by reason of an extraordinarily favourable decision reached at secretly by men  who were already suspect of having misled UEFA in order to get the dead club its European licence, and who thought nothing of entering secret deals with a chancer.
    Discussion of other football matters is as pointless as was putting a bet on anyone but Lance Armstrong, or the opponents of those Russian athletes who were found guilty of cheating.
    What after all would be, is, the point of watching a  ‘sporting competition’ when the whole foundation of the sport is based on an act of cheating by the very Administrators of the Sport?
    If we talk of other matters, it is only in the context of the hope and belief that the Big Lie will be exposed.
    If people go on about Admin. No 1 for the new club, or of directors and ex-directors going to jail, it is only because those kinds of events might just hasten that exposure, and bring the guilty folk to trial in the context of Football, and dealt with as Blatter and Platini have been.
    The triumph of Truth over Falsehood can take a long time. But it comes eventually.
33. 
    

    jimbo 2nd March 2016 at 1:47 pm # Going by supporter comments on other boards there seems to be a head of steam building up with Celtic fans only renewing their season tickets depending on the actions of D. Desmond & P. Lawell with regard to resolution 12 and the outcome of the EBTs case.  Fair enough that they would want to see some finality in the EBT appeal.  But not so resolution 12.  The DOS scheme was declared illegal and guilt admitted by Rangers.  So why the delay?   Celtic FC could bring this to a head today if they were so minded.  It baffles me why they don’t.  It makes you wonder if the tag ‘The Old Firm’ had more substance than we thought, they might just be as thick as thieves.  I hope not.
    ______________________

    It has been suggested by some of an educated mind, that the reason Lawwell hasn’t been able to get behind Resolution 12 is that it is in the interest of the shareholders that the board do not halt the return of the ‘Old Firm’ money-spinner, and, of course, all boards are compelled by law to do what’s best for their shareholders. If this is, indeed, the main block on the board getting behind Resolution 12, then a withdrawal of paying supporters might well open the door for a change of heart within the boardroom, as it would then become the case that to ignore Resolution 12 would be damaging to the company’s prospects.

    For the record, I am not advocating that Celtic supporters should withdraw their paying support, for I am of the opinion that the only club that should ever suffer as a result of the Govan scandal is the Govan club itself. Perhaps, though, should Celtic supporters create the aura of ‘walking away’, then it might free the board to take the steps that are possibly in their hearts – as opposed to the blocks in their financially primed heads!
34. 
    

    jimbo 2nd March 2016 at 1:47 pm #Going by supporter comments on other boards there seems to be a head of steam building up with Celtic fans only renewing their season tickets depending on the actions of D. Desmond & P. Lawell with regard to resolution 12 and the outcome of the EBTs case.  Fair enough that they would want to see some finality in the EBT appeal.
    ———————————————————————————–
    Players not registered in the proper way should be enough!!!!
35. 
    

    I think that it is obvious that the custodians of Scottish football are going to do nothing about the  RFC(IL)/TRFC shenanigans-maybe because some or all are complicit . I think that it is obvious that the boards  of Scottish football clubs are going to do nothing about the  RFC(IL)/TRFC shenanigans-maybe because some or all are complicit . I would imagine that some or all may actually think that this is for the benefit of Scottish football . Doesn’t wash with me though . I think their cure may kill the patient .  I also have doubts that we will see any meaningful intervention by UEFA or FIFA into this morass .They will have the information but see it as a societal problem . Hopefully a summer watching other nations in the Euro’s on the telly will galvanise Scottish fans (well the ones who don’t support England or ROI) to demand change in governance in return for their further contributions, both emotionally and financially . I truly enjoy going to Scotland away matches (hate Hampden, though) but will forgo that pleasure should  honesty and decency not prevail. A lot of the court cases will be rumbling along at the same time . Should be an interesting summer .
36. 
    

    I too have been wondering about the site becoming quieter.  I agree on the point of battle fatigue.  I think everything that has happened has been reported on analysed over and over again.  Nothing seems to change at Hampden nor the SMSM.  Sometimes we get a bit of increased activity when something of interest comes up like the supposed ‘spat’ between MW & RD over artificial pitches.

    Then there is the johnjames site now.  Yesterday he posted two articles and got about 80 replies.  I like the site but most of what he says is already in the public domain.  But he often looks at things from another angle and he seems to be up to speed with events of the past year since the King takeover.  Sometimes his predictions have been out but reading his speculation is entertaining.  Goodness knows where he gets the time.  He must be full time.  Two articles per day, moderation duties and not a few replies to comments.

    On the other hand the last article posted here was 17 Feb.  The excellent Finloch post which must have taken an age to research and write.  We normally go off topic very quickly from the lead post but a new post does stir up some activity.

    I often find myself scratching my head thinking what can I post about today?  (You can probably guess from the quality).

    I don’t know what the answer is maybe we have found a level.
37. 
    

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35708136
    How long before the Uefa sights are trained on Govan?
38. 
    

    View Comment 

    Allyjambo 2nd March 2016 at 2:09 pm # ______________________
    It has been suggested by some of an educated mind, that the reason Lawwell hasn’t been able to get behind Resolution 12 is that it is in the interest of the shareholders that the board do not halt the return of the ‘Old Firm’ money-spinner, and, of course, all boards are compelled by law to do what’s best for their shareholders. If this is, indeed, the main block on the board getting behind Resolution 12, then a withdrawal of paying supporters might well open the door for a change of heart within the boardroom, as it would then become the case that to ignore Resolution 12 would be damaging to the company’s prospects.
    —————————————————————————————————
    I think the way PL overegged the pudding when making a statement on the financial loss to Celtic gave us a big clue to the way he was thinking.
39. 
    

    normanbatesmumfc 2nd March 2016 at 2:38 pm #

    Beat me to it ! I think they’ll only come into Uefa’s crosshairs when they actually qualify for competition .
40. 
    

    Allyjambo, an interesting take on PL inaction.  One thing is for sure though, Celtic have already suffered financially c£15m since they should have been Scotland’s representatives in the Champions league in 2011.  Rangers should have been ineligible.   Maybe Celtic should have actioned resolution 12 and put a claim for £15m in with BDO’s creditors list.
41. 
    

    john james ‏@sitonfence 33m33 minutes ago
    http://johnjamessite.com/2016/03/02/the-scottish-football-monitor/ …
    A letter to The Scottish Football Monitor.
    =====================
    I appear to have reached a level of notoriety with JJ, so much so that he has devoted a whole blog to my comments on SFM.

    I have tweeted him back to reassure him that I do find his perspective different and interesting, but that I will continue to challenge him if I believe he is misrepresenting the facts as I know them.

    I won’t be contributing to his site though. I spend enough time as it is posting on SFM, a Hearts message board, and very occasionally on Pie & Bovril.  I will continue to read his blogs though, just as I read others that I find of interest, but they are definitely not all about Rangers. 
42. 
    

    jimbo 2nd March 2016 at 3:18 pm #
    Allyjambo, an interesting take on PL inaction.  One thing is for sure though, Celtic have already suffered financially c£15m since they should have been Scotland’s representatives in the Champions league in 2011.  Rangers should have been ineligible.   Maybe Celtic should have actioned resolution 12 and put a claim for £15m in with BDO’s creditors list.
    ======================
    Celtic did lose out when the SFA granted a UEFA Licence to Rangers for 2011/12, but they weren’t guaranteed to earn £15M, as they too would have had to negotiate a qualifying round before reaching the lucrative group stages of the CL.
43. 
    

    http://johnjamessite.com/2016/03/02/the-scottish-football-monitor/

    JJ having a bit of a go at Easyjambo in this post. All a bit unnecessary, in my opinion.
44. 
    

    If I didn’t know you better Easyjambo I would take that as a dig at our last European campaign!

    (only kidding)
45. 
    

    In reply to a poster on JohnJames site I have posted this. I post it here to because I believe i to be relevant

    I am currently in the process of constructing a detailed complaint to be sent to UEFA. I have decided to abandon my original intention of doing this when I had 5000 signatures to back me. We have just under 2000 at this time and this I believe is not a strong position to be in but I feel I owe it to those who have stepped forward and supported the petition. Because of the experiences of Malaga and Galatasary copies will be sent to the Spanish and Turkish associations and this will be explained to UEFA. Copies will also be sent to Westminster and Holyrood ministers responsible for sport and the sponsors currently involved with our leagues.You mention Alex Thomson, well he along with every other reporter that I have approached did not consider it worthy of a reply. The same is true of the many supporters groups approached.I have said all along that the only hope achieving of any sort of outcome in this would come from action by the fans and every failed attempt to get publicity and support reinforces that belief. Thank you to those who have joined me with this petition, we may be not acting from the position of strength that we hoped but perhaps luck will be with us.
    To those who have not signed, there is still time to back us and give us the extra hope for the proper outcome.
    https://www.change.org/p/scottish-football-association-return-integrity-to-football-administration-in-scotland-94421b40-2d6b-4d4b-9cff-912c9849478f
46. 
    

    ps, just noticed that was my 500th post!
47. 
    

    Allyjambo 2nd March 2016 at 2:09 pm
    Res 12 is just one of several hefty plates spinning in front of Peter Lawwell.
    As a cash-paying Celtic supporter of more than 50 years (with several family-member season tickets to my name) and follower of the wider Scottish game, I very much hope that Peter understands that a great many Celtic supporters are, like myself, watching intently to see how the club handles the various aspects of the current situation.
    I know I’m not alone in saying that I’ve never felt as close to chucking it as I have this past few months (and I’m only talking about the ongoing SFA-Sevco shenanigans).
    Longer-term Celtic FC Shareholder value is likely to suffer mightily if he (and his fellow Directors) aren’t seen to handle all this in a fair and transparent way.
48. 
    

    “Big Five’ Footy Clubs Deny Breakaway Plans
    “The Premier League’s richest clubs have denied they are planning a breakaway from the Champions League or the Premier League after it was revealed they held talks with a US company proposing major changes to European competition…”
    http://news.sky.com/story/1652061/big-five-footy-clubs-deny-breakaway-plans
    ===============================
    Hmm, looks like US influence could be driving a preferred ‘limited franchise’ proposal ?
    If it where to happen, more major clubs could become even more attractive to US buyers?
    And with the recent FIFA and UEFA leadership shambles, now could be an ideal time to plan a breakaway.
    …but the Scottish teams will probably be marginilised, IMO.
49. 
    

    As a long time lurker and vary rare contributor I must confess that this is the first time I’ve even looked at this site for a few weeks.  I have a look at Phil’s site once or twice a week, Clumpany daily, ditto John James.  This blog has become rather stale I’m afraid to say.  It needs freshened up a bit.  I don’t think it’s to do with people giving up or losing interest in the subject matter.
    When things get busy with court cases and so on then this is still the place to come for analysis and explanations.  But in the quiet periods there is nothing on here to attract the average browser like myself.
    Sorry.
50. 
    

    Dunderheid 2nd March 2016 at 3:47 pm #Allyjambo 2nd March 2016 at 2:09 pmRes 12 is just one of several hefty plates spinning in front of Peter Lawwell.As a cash-paying Celtic supporter of more than 50 years (with several family-member season tickets to my name) and follower of the wider Scottish game, I very much hope that Peter understands that a great many Celtic supporters are, like myself, watching intently to see how the club handles the various aspects of the current situation.I know I’m not alone in saying that I’ve never felt as close to chucking it as I have this past few months (and I’m only talking about the ongoing SFA-Sevco shenanigans).Longer-term Celtic FC Shareholder value is likely to suffer mightily if he (and his fellow Directors) aren’t seen to handle all this in a fair and transparent way.
    _______________

    As I said, I would never encourage any supporters of any of the cheated clubs to withdraw their financial support of their own club, as it would, in my opinion, be counter productive, leaving TRFC in a stronger position finacially in comparison than they would otherwise be, and they certainly don’t deserve that. I do, though, harbour a small hope that the threat of reduced income might allow Peter Lawwell the latitude to take up the matter of Resolution 12, from a position where he can do so safe in the knowledge that he is upholding his responsibility to seek to preserve the best financial outcome for the shareholders of the company.

    Perhaps, if he agrees with this theory/hope, Auldheid might take it up with the Celtic supporters groups’ leaders to see if they can create the correct atmosphere for action without jeapardising the club’s short term finances irreparably.

    How delicious would it be if Resolution 12 was actioned as a result of a King style ‘boycott’, all done without an ounce of harm to Celtic?
51. 
    

    Jungle Jim 2nd March 2016 at 4:45 pm #…But in the quiet periods there is nothing on here to attract the average browser like myself…
    ===========================
    Agreed, that this site is at its very best when we can get our teeth into some new info/spin/lies about the SFA / SPFL / TRFC.
    But this is supposed to be a site about ‘Scottish football’ – although admittedly there has been a particular focus on all things TRFC related.
    Apart from the FIFA/UEFA goings on, the risk of breakaway leagues etc., there are other areas I would hope the Bampots could eventually discuss – mibbees when things subside down Govan / Hampden way.

    For example, I am very ignorant of lower league football clubs and how they operate and survive – but they are an integral part of Scottish football history.
    I also know nothing about Scottish women’s football and how that is developing.
    And I would like to know much more about how grassroots football coaching and training has changed / developed / improved since the 70s/80s…when we just ran around the pitch a couple of times then played a game of footie – and tactical discussions were non-existent.

    That’s off the top of my head, but I suppose there are many other Scottish football areas – and questions – which could be raised.
    Currently though, when it’s quiet at Ibrox it does tend to be quieter on this site.
    We must be obsessed…!  
     
52. 
    

    STICKY

    On the Perth front, things are not looking good I’m afraid folks. Only ten tickets (and  a couple of non-attendee briefs have been sold). Break even for this event is over double that amount.

    It is disappointing, but I suppose we have to face it that a combination of dates, location, and the fact that we are just over the line on a fund-raising exercise have contributed to the low take-up.

    Again, I would ask that if anyone is planning to attend but have not yet obtained a ticket, could you please let me know?

    I will give it another week before making a decision on whether to go ahead or cancel, so I can let St. Johnstone know in plenty of time.

    Update 15:00 1st March:
    We are still NINE tickets short of the break even position
53. 
    

    StevieBC 2nd March 2016 at 5:13 pm # 
    Currently though, when it’s quiet at Ibrox it does tend to be quieter on this site.
    ====================
    Part of Dave King’s overall strategy was to silence any potential critics. In my opinion, getting RIFC delisted was an integral part of that strategy. He saw what the constant stream of regulatory announcements did to the previous regimes. Every loan prompted an announcement, every significant change in shareholdings prompted an announcement, and every announcement prompted a tsunami of speculation on the financial health of RIFC.
    Compare the situation now. Silence. The company borrows £6.5m. Who from, what terms? Silence. There may have been big changes in shareholdings- or maybe not. Nobody knows, outside the inner circle, of course. This all suits King right down to the ground. So much for transparency.
    Of course some of the the detail will come out eventually, with the annual accounts and return, but the next accounts aren’t due until 31 December. Until then we are in the dark. If it wasn’t for the court cases, we wouldn’t have much to discuss, as regards RIFC financial matters.
    Maybe it’s time to turn an even stronger spotlight on to the SFA/SPFL, and the role of our clubs in what has gone on?
54. 
    

    Given tonight’s results the Dons are back to 4 points behind Celtic and if Hearts win their game in hand they will be ten points of the leaders, can anyone tell me why the top division needs T’Rangers to make it competitive, when the 2rd and 3rd teams are putting the pressure on and the likes of Dundee and Hamilton can put up a fight and get a draw from the Champions.

    If the team from Ibrox come up as expected they will join in the fun and games next season but I doubt very much whether they are ‘needed’ to make things competitive or indeed to somehow encourage Celtic to up their game.
55. 
    

    One of the reasons why Johnjames is engaging so many posters are (partial) posts like this:

    ”
    The charges against Green are now in the public domain. The writ specifies the instruction of junior and senior counsel.
    Junior counsel charge circa £1350 per day, plus VAT, to attend court. A fee of £600 + VAT per hour to take meetings with clients and instructing solicitors, is the norm. Over the course of a legal year (ten months) I would expect no less than £390,000 in fees.
    I have touched on senior counsel in a previous blog. £3,500 per day would be the minimum, but costs of £10,000 per day are not uncommon. Note that Green’s compromise agreement includes the term ‘without limitation.’ This will be vigorously challenged in the Court of Session as the QC acting for RIFC will do his utmost to cap costs. I do not expect this challenge to be successful. Entry level for a ‘silk’  will be £840,000 inclusive of VAT. Instruction costs of  £106,000 will take the annual total to £946,000. Should Green elect to engage a silk at £10,000 per day, costs including VAT will be £2.4m per annum with instruction costs of a further £106,000 as a minimum.
    Then there are the costs of  the instructing solicitors. I would expect a senior partner, junior partner and paralegal as a minimum at a cost £1200 per billable hour (inc VAT). Two thousand billable hours per annum could run to £2.4m
    In my considered opinion, Green’s litigation costs, per annum, will be circa £3.74m – £5.3m. This year’s season ticket receipts (after VAT) are £7.3m. Green’ costs represent between 51.2% to 72.6% of our major source of income. Supporting Rangers for the next 3-7 years will  result in 51.2p to 72.6p of our blue pound going directly to Green’s defence team.”

    When was the last time we read anything of such detail in the past year?   That post was from September 2015 and has not been challenged on here since.  It is reminiscent of RTC days.

    I hope I am challenged on here regarding above post.

    But I doubt it. We need some new thinking and new challengers.
56. 
    

    I suppose what I am trying to say is where is the new RTC & Paul McConville?

    Amongst all our lurckers there must be one.
57. 
    

    Jimbo, I may be wrong, & as accepted by all, I very usually am! But I’m fairly certain it was discussed at the time.
    As has been commented on before, JohnJames is very good at what he does and all power to his keyboard. He certainly collated those numbers very well and that’s kind of my point. It’s just a random cross-section of salaries thrown up in the air with a TRFC slant. A lot of what he writes, and here’s the bit that shall be really popular, and the same goes for Phil is very Nostradamus-esque, although Phil has a proven track-record. Where he differs from Phil is the ferocious output and the level of ‘kite-flying’ – they even have the same air of condescension at times!

    it should also be remembered Jimbo that apart from his original output a lot of what he publishes has already been well discussed and dissected on here. But I’ll admit to enjoying reading it again on JohnJames as a refresher if you like. So you have fresh eyes to the story and some weary ones too all helping to make his site a busy little place. Where it differs from here is in the comments section.

    So yes, JohnJames may be putting out a couple of fresh posts a day but it is most certainly not reasoned debate. It is an opinion piece with some (selected) comments. To use some of his own phraseology – the two sites are appealing to different demographics although there is a definite overlap in sections!
58. 
    

    Hi Jimbo

    I was very interested in your comment earlier that Celtic lost 15m by Rangers getting accepted into the Champions league. The problem I have with this is that as others have said Celtic would have needed to qualify before they got their mitts on the treasure trove. 
    However there is another slight hitch to this plan, as far as I can remember Rangers were (unfortunately) the Scottish Champions – and I don’t see that disputed anywhere. So if we consider that Rangers were not eligible to get their mucky paws on a EUFA licence then they should have been withdrawn from the Champions League. But here lies the problem, Rangers may well have been ineligeble for the Champions League due to a lack of a licence, but so were Celtic as they would undoubtedly have received a licence, but were not the Scottish Champions. 
    I cannot see anywhere that, for example if we consider the cup winners cup that runners up automatically assumed the positioned, indeed most evidence points against this. 
    If we look at Inter Milan at the same time, 2011, they won the CHampions League the previous year, yet they won by virtue of a league position to automatically enter the champions league. However it wasn’t the next in place in the Italian League or the runners up in the UEFA cup that were promoted it was to quote wikimedia:
    Since the winners of the 2009–10 UEFA Champions League, Internazionale, obtained a place in the group stage through their domestic league placing, the reserved title holder spot in the group stage was effectively vacated. To compensate: [4]
    The champions of association 13 (Scotland) were promoted from the third qualifying round to the group stage.The champions of association 16 (Denmark) were promoted from the second qualifying round to the third qualifying round.The champions of associations 48 and 49 (Faroe Islands and Luxembourg) were promoted from the first qualifying round to the second qualifying round.

      
     Now that would suggest it is highly unlikely Celtic would have been promoted by UEFA as unofficial-Scottish Champions, due to the possibility of serious litigation from Rangers as the then holders of the title of Scottish Champions and furthermore from the Champions of lower leagues, who could have claimed a better right to the vacant spot.
    Remember Rangers needed two assets to gain entry to the UEFA Champions League; 1) to be Scottish Champions and 2) to have a UEFA License, and they should have failed on the latter. However, Celtic would have failed on the former as they were not and could not possibly claim to be the Scottish Champions.

    Now this is not trolling I genuinely want to understand how you think Celtic lost 15m in 2011 because the SFA gave Rangers a UEFA license.
59. 
    

    wottpi 2nd March 2016 at 10:11 pm #
    ===========================

    Seems a competitive top league will never catch on in Scotland. When we don’t have one the media focus on Celtic still not winning it by enough points. When we do have one they turn their guns on Celtic even more. The fact is though, we seem to have one. As a Celtic fan who attends games I’m far from convinced about my team right now. The only thing saving them so far has been Aberdeen’s failure to capitalise on a lot of occasions. Can any team be totally consistent over the remaining games? As for the media I think we all know the definition of a competitive league is one a strong Rangers generally wins. Celtic will be tolerated in 2nd place if they can manage it, and the rest are only there for Rangers to gain enough points to beat Celtic. 
60. 
    

    I notice Michael Mols has been brought in to stir up a bit of nonsense for the Dundee cup tie.

    He may not know who Gary Harkins is but we know you Mr Mols – a £260,000 EBT tax cheat beneficiary with the usual Rangers superiority complex, currently looking like a potential free loader trying to fleece the mythical worldwide support by travelling with Gough and others to meet the Oceania Rangers Supporters Association. 

    A bit petty but had to get it off my chest.
61. 
    

    doubtingthomas 3rd March 2016 at 5:31 am
    ‘..Now this is not trolling I genuinely want to understand how you think Celtic lost 15m in 2011 because the SFA gave Rangers a UEFA license.’
    _______
    I beg to differ. It may be accidental, but  diverting  the blog into partisan discussion of the effect of SDM’s gross cheating on Celtic  has been tried many times, in order to push the SFA’s view that the wickedness of SDM’s and the SFA’s cheating was merely a matter of Celtic/Rangers bantering rivalry, instead of the grossest act of sporting cheating which has damaged everyone.
    Regular posters know that this is a non-partisan blog aimed at trying to call to account bad people who  have cheated us. We ought not allow ourselves to  be diverted into partisan discussion.
62. 
    

    So this might be classed as a bit cheeky. But, this is not mean’t as such, it is a genuine question. So, we all agree we want a competitive league. We all agree that does not mean TRFC need to be in the league, it should and on occasions has even felt like we have a competitive league this year. In fact outside the top 3 it is ridiculously competitive with only 9 points separating 4th from 9th. Up top we have a “breakaway” of three teams 13 pts separating them (with Hearts having a game in hand).

    Now, my cheeky question is this. Celtic last night played Brown and Mulgrew in midfield. From my reading of various outlets they were shocking. I get the impression that Browns days are numbered, that last injury perhaps taking its toll. But, how many young midfielders have Celtic signed from Scottish teams this past year and a half? Are they simply considered not good enough by Deila? Too risky to play youngsters? But.. young Tierney by all accounts appears to have become a firm favourite with the fans. Surely, if you have no intention of playing these youngsters don’t buy them! Or at least loan them out to other clubs so they can gain the experience necessary before you can trust them in such big games as a Wednesday night home game against Dundee!

    There is of course a long history of big clubs signing promising youngsters. All clubs do it to a certain extent, picking from those lower down the league structure. But if we seriously want a competitive league up here perhaps we should investigate a limit on squad size, or some other way through which the clubs with the largest financial clout cannot simply hoover up promising talent and leave it wasting in the reserves/on the bench. Is there a squad size limit already?
63. 
    

    tayred 3rd March 2016 at 9:13 am
    You are sounding a bit like the Warbmeister given his liking for compact squads!!

    However I agree with the thrust of your argument.

    While I am happy with the way things are generally going at Tynecastle I note that yesterday’s news was the signing of a 24 year old US cap Perry Kitchen. A competitive defensive midfielder by all accounts.

    Neilson and Levein will know what they are looking for but we let Holt go to T’Rangers for peanuts to allow the lad to get game time and King is there on loan for the same reason (to rave reviews I must add. ‘Sign him up now’ is the cry from our Colts club ), Gomis is on loan at Motherwell and we signed Cowie to go along with Bauben Djoum, Pallardo, Zanattta, while Walker and Nicholson attack the flanks. All in all our the bench looks pretty strong and with youngsters coming through the system and getting a game every now and again.
    However you have to wonder where the squad building will end and how everyone will be kept happy with regard to game time and as you say what, especially home grown,  talent is not getting a chance to develop in the top flight.
64. 
    

    doubtingthomas 3rd March 2016 at 5:31 am
    Remember Rangers needed two assets to gain entry to the UEFA Champions League; 1) to be Scottish Champions and 2) to have a UEFA License, and they should have failed on the latter. However, Celtic would have failed on the former as they were not and could not possibly claim to be the Scottish Champions.

    Aside from the Champions League group stage places reserved for the winners of the Champions League and Europa League, the number of places allocated to each country does not change. Turkey will have one group stage and one 3rd qualifying round slot in next year’s Champions League regardless of where Galatasaray finish in the league. If a club is banned from participating, it’s up to the national association to nominate a replacement. (This will invariably be the next-placed eligible club in the league.) It’s unthinkable that Scotland simply wouldn’t have provided a Champions League participant in 2011-12 because Rangers were ineligible. Celtic would have taken their place, and Kilmarnock would have been promoted to the Europa League qualifiers.

    Italy did not lose a place when Internazionale won the Champions League. They would have gained a place if Inter had finished outside of a qualifying position. Note however that the maximum number of Champions League places for a country is five, so if both European tournament winners are from a country with four qualifying places, and they don’t finishing in a qualifying place in the league, the fourth-placed team gets bumped down to the next season’s Europa League. (It could potentially happen this season with Liverpool and Chelsea.)
65. 
    

    wottpi 3rd March 2016 at 9:32 am #tayred 3rd March 2016 at 9:13 amYou are sounding a bit like the Warbmeister given his liking for compact squads!!

    Having re-read my comment with that in mind I have to agree with you – how terrifying!  We come at it from a different direction though.

    This hoovering, for want of a better word, has a massive impact on the careers of most of these players. They aren’t getting game time, they aren’t gaining experience, to put it simply they aren’t becoming footballers. It would be incredibly hard for a youngster to turn down the chance of playing for a bigger club, the waft of all those £50 notes under their noses must be intoxicating. It is however, in many cases killing their careers. I know several Aberdeen youngsters have headed south and been lost, Fyvie, Maguire, Grimmer, Fraser just 4 that come to mind from recent years. Another year or two in the SPFL and they may have been stronger players from it and not sunk without trace. Fyvie thankfully has re-emerged, but you have to wonder where he would be now footballer wise if he stuck it out in Aberdeen a wee bit longer.
66. 
    

    John Clark @ 09:00 ;

    but John, the blog does itself no favours by shutting down or stifling discussion. Personally, I think it poses an interesting question, one that the MSM certainly will not ask, as to the finer intricacies of Res.12. If you take the SFA’s ‘haud-it n daud-it’ out of the equation the question remains – who lost out on the £15million?
    Or maybe it’s a case of tempering, what at times comes across as a green-hued sense of entitlement?

    (Tin hat on tight and flak jacket buttoned all the way up!)
67. 
    

    tayred 3rd March 2016 at 9:51 am #

    ——————————–

    But it isn’t that part of the £15m question, or rather the £15m question leads to the answer. I don’t know the Dons 4 you mention as guys but I’m willing to bet they were ordinary laddies who have grown up in this celebrity obsessed world where glitz, glam and fame are the be-all and end-all. Are they going to achieve the riches of Footballers Wives playing at Pittodrie? In their young minds is a move down south a stepping stone to the mansion and Maserati? 

    Until football’s obsession with money is curbed I think it can only get worse. As pointed out yesterday the clubs are only one argument away from splitting and franchising.
68. 
    

    causaludendi 3rd March 2016 at 10:09 am #

    Absolutely. Certainly for those players that have headed South the money being offered to them would be a big step up on what they were being paid when playing for the mighty Dons. I think we can assume that it would be a step up for players in every team in Scotland (Celtic included).

    As for the quest of the mansions and the footballers wives. I’m sure Stewartie Milne could whip up one of his flat pack beauties for the right player, and according to the AFC chat sites Mr Ash Taylor has a wife that has had more than a few chins dropping in Aberdeen (and provoked one or two malicious rumours that I shall not be repeat!!). So all roads surely must point to Pittodrie for a ambitious youngster 
69. 
    

    There is some angst about the role of this site, but there is also general agreement (I thought) about the contribution by Finloch
    ‘My simple proposal as our first step forward is to start a Wikipedia style library of the facts and keep it on our site’
    Is this matter making progress? I think the role of the site should be beyond comforting each other in our mutual beliefs but in opening windows on material that is concealed.
    How can the strength across the users be coordinated?
70. 
    

    tayred 3rd March 2016 at 9:13 am

        You make a very valid point wrt the competitiveness of the league, but assuming Sevco come up, the three horse race will be forgotten in favour of the two horse. 
       I predict next season will be the season of honest mistakes like no other. They have stopped at no hurdle to get 4 Celtic/Sevco games back on the telly, and a few ref “blunders” will not cause them sleepless nights. 
        It is a fallacy, that Sevco have to be involved in the game, to benefit from such mistakes, but that is not true.
    Every club above them will suffer “bizarre” decisions, to ensure a gap doesn’t appear, and they WILL get those 4 games. The advancement of higher clubs will be thwarted by design.
       If you are amongst the many do-ers of coupons, forget form….Just ask yourself, “What results do Sevco need to stay in the top 6. ?”….For it shall be done ! 
71. 
    

    doubtingthomas 3rd March 2016 at 5:31 am # Hi Jimbo
    I was very interested in your comment earlier that Celtic lost 15m by Rangers getting accepted into the Champions league. The problem I have with this is that as others have said Celtic would have needed to qualify before they got their mitts on the treasure trove.  However there is another slight hitch to this plan, as far as I can remember Rangers were (unfortunately) the Scottish Champions – and I don’t see that disputed anywhere. So if we consider that Rangers were not eligible to get their mucky paws on a EUFA licence then they should have been withdrawn from the Champions League. But here lies the problem, Rangers may well have been ineligeble for the Champions League due to a lack of a licence, but so were Celtic as they would undoubtedly have received a licence, but were not the Scottish Champions.  I cannot see anywhere that, for example if we consider the cup winners cup that runners up automatically assumed the positioned, indeed most evidence points against this.  If we look at Inter Milan at the same time, 2011, they won the CHampions League the previous year, yet they won by virtue of a league position to automatically enter the champions league. However it wasn’t the next in place in the Italian League or the runners up in the UEFA cup that were promoted it was to quote wikimedia: Since the winners of the 2009–10 UEFA Champions League, Internazionale, obtained a place in the group stage through their domestic league placing, the reserved title holder spot in the group stage was effectively vacated. To compensate: [4] The champions of association 13 (Scotland) were promoted from the third qualifying round to the group stage.The champions of association 16 (Denmark) were promoted from the second qualifying round to the third qualifying round.The champions of associations 48 and 49 (Faroe Islands and Luxembourg) were promoted from the first qualifying round to the second qualifying round.
        Now that would suggest it is highly unlikely Celtic would have been promoted by UEFA as unofficial-Scottish Champions, due to the possibility of serious litigation from Rangers as the then holders of the title of Scottish Champions and furthermore from the Champions of lower leagues, who could have claimed a better right to the vacant spot. Remember Rangers needed two assets to gain entry to the UEFA Champions League; 1) to be Scottish Champions and 2) to have a UEFA License, and they should have failed on the latter. However, Celtic would have failed on the former as they were not and could not possibly claim to be the Scottish Champions.
    Now this is not trolling I genuinely want to understand how you think Celtic lost 15m in 2011 because the SFA gave Rangers a UEFA license.
    _________________________

    Not saying you’re wrong, and you do make your point well, but, as there are more ‘non-champions’ in the Champions League than champions, it would appear that it is not necessary to qualify as league winners. My own opinion is that Scotland have/had one place allocated to them for in the competition, others have as many as four, and I suspect that every FA has a right to those places allocated to them. Finding a place for the reigning CL champions has proven problematic when they don’t qualify automatically by dint of their league position, as was witnessed with Liverpool a number of years ago, but they managed to get round that (though I can’t remember how).

    It is questionable just how the replacement club for RFC would have been decided, as no other club, anywhere else, would have more right to the place ahead of 2nd place (Celtic) in the Scottish League. Galatasary are now banned from Europe, due to their FFP failings, and they will provide an indication, at least, of how it might have panned out should they end up in a European qualifying place.

    As Charles Green hadn’t appeared at Ibrox at the time, I expect that there would have been no ‘serious litigation’ had the SFA ensured the rules were followed, as, under FIFA/UEFA regulations it is not allowed, and with administration just around the corner, RFC/Whyte would have had much more to worry about than taking their case to court and displaying their problems to the world – they couldn’t have afforded it anyway. With UEFA involved even RFC/Whyte would have realised that they wouldn’t have been able to proceed with their plans to come out the other side as the same club if they went down the litigation route! I think UEFA wouldn’t have liked Rangers very much, as a result, and would have given short shrift in any attempts at the ‘continuation myth’!
72. 
    

    wottpi 3rd March 2016 at 7:53 am
    ‘..I notice Michael Mols has been brought in to stir up a bit of nonsense for the Dundee cup tie…’
    _______
    I’ve just read Andrew Smith’s piece about Mols in today’s ‘Scotsman’.
    This Smith , unlike the other , Aidan Smith, has occasionally been a little braver than the vast majority of football hacks, and today he is a little bit braver. He says “Arguments persist over the issue of Rangers’ [ not brave enough to call them by their proper, new name] hosting of Dundee on Saturday and whether they have ever done so before.The old club’s liquidation in 2012 means, in a business sense, this Rangers can be considered a new club…. The issue is like the existence of God.Believe or don’t believe, it is up to you…”
    What a piece if nonsense for any intelligent person to come out with. It is an absolute fact that RFC(IL) is not playing football because it ceased to be a football club. It is an incontrovertible fact that TRFC is a club which did not exist prior to 2012. For Smith to argue that these facts are matters of ‘belief’ is just to pander to the wishful delusions of the mob, and provide grist to the mill of those in Scottish football governance who helped create a LIE and continue to foster and propagate it.
    There are people who deny the Holocaust. Doesn’t mean it did not happen.
    And 500 000 000 people denying that the RFC of their fathers, grandfathers and, no doubt, great-grandfathers no longer exists as a football club playing football in the SPFL cannot change the stark legal, commercial,  and sporting facts.
    Those who support TRFC are whistling and p.ssing against the winds of reality. They may do so if they wish, of course.
    But the rational world knows different, and the liars in authority know different: they need to be prepared to tell things as they are, amend the record books to reflect legal, commercial, and sporting Truth: then the game will be saved and we can all move on, as arch-propagandist McIntyre of the BBC Radio Scotland propaganda team and the SFA have fervently wished us to do for the last 4 years.
73. 
    

    tayred 3rd March 2016 at 10:32 am #
    —————

    Crivens, it must’ve been a Freudian slip to talk of Footballers Wives – I’d almost forgotten that ‘spicy’ storyline coming from Pittodrie, around the same time as the end of their winning spree and start of their slump wasn’t it?! ??????
74. 
    

    causaludendi 3rd March 2016 at 11:02 am #tayred 3rd March 2016 at 10:32 am #
    Crivens, it must’ve been a Freudian slip to talk of Footballers Wives – I’d almost forgotten that ‘spicy’ storyline coming from Pittodrie, around the same time as the end of their winning spree and start of their slump wasn’t it?! ??????

    Yip, exactly the same time. Folk desperately trying to come up with a reason for the slump, ignoring the fact that almost all teasm go through one at some point or another during a season. That was one of the spicier rumours but there were many! Some thoroughly entertaining stories were put together by those with sparkling imaginations! 
75. 
    

    Keefy boy suggesting on twitter that spiritualism pays

    “keith jackson ‏@tedermeatballs 45m45 minutes ago @m11ffg The league’s commercial value needs strong CFC and RFC. But there’s a different argument about sporting competition.”

    RFC have gone, Keith, passed away, deed! Their replacement is only needed by those who mourn their passing. Try hyping up the whole of Scottish football, maybe then it will get some of the ‘commercial value’ it deserves!

    TRFC brought such a high commercial value to Scottish football that the SPFL had to pay BT to cover their games! Explain that as ‘commercial value’!

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