I have been receiving quite a bit of unflattering mail about the “agenda” being pursued on this blog. Depending on the correspondent, that is defined as either denying people their civil right to gloat, hiding the “truth” that people of the RC faith are welcomed and encouraged to come to Ibrox, or indulging in Chamberlain-style appeasement with the banning of the “H” word and other incontrovertible rights-to-insult.
The objection to moderation of any sort appears to be at the root of these diatribes. Our position here in terms of moderation is clear. There is no “agenda” other than a desire not to be chasing up posts containing the rantings and ravings of partisan types who “demand” their right to be heard no matter how objectionable it might be to those hear it. We are not here to service a conduit for conspiracy theories based in Masonic Lodges or the Vatican. There are plenty of places where people can indulge in that kind of stuff, but the moderators here are just not interested. The administration of the site takes around four hours per day. That’s a long time trawling through posts which often set out deliberately to insult, abuse or otherwise cause offence – mildly or otherwise.
Our view is that the blog will only have cross-club support if we stick to what we can substantiate by fact or reasonably infer from the way things proceed. Further, we feel that if we are to gain credibility as an alternative source of news and comment to the MSM, that we need to cut down on the fansite type comments. There is no dignity (a word often used here) in calling the Rangers manager or their fans names. We need to maintain higher standards of impartiality than football fansites, because we know that a united fan base can actually make a difference as RTC did when the SPL chairmen were gearing up for a parachute for the new Rangers. OT discussions are fine, and often amusing, but they shouldn’t become the main reason to come here.
The requirement to have a WordPress account before posting here is not in any way draconian. It is designed to make people accountable for what they post whilst still maintaining anonymity, and therefore being exempt from moderation. Those who don’t like it are not being compelled to carry out any instruction – they only need go to a place where they don’t feel so constrained.
If the main issue of this blog becomes how the blog is being administered – or how the moderation policy is affecting the human rights of posters, we may as well just pack up now.
There have never been any objections to the suggested posting rules on here. We assume that people who post are reasonably intelligent. Therefore it seems fair to assume that those who have ignored the suggested posting rules did so deliberately. If that doesn’t happen, moderation is just not required.
If what we are trying to do fails because of our posting framework, then we will be blamed. We are certain though, that we can have no credibility if we indulge ourselves in conspiracy theories and constant references to anachronistic organisations, the Scottish school system, and the leanings of referees.
There is real corruption in Scottish football. It is based not on religious rivalries but on greed and acquisitiveness. The only thing that matters is that we identify that corruption and help put an end to it.
Our job is to ask questions and not jump to our own conclusions about the answers. That will divide us as surely as the realisation of the depth of the corruption united us. To be totally united as fans, we need to have more Rangers fans on here. Therefore we need to create an atmosphere that they can be comfortable with. Is that the case right now? The anger for RFC’s mismanagement and abuse of the game in Scotland is real, but we need to look forward if we are truly committed to ensuring that what happened to Rangers can’t happen again.
We’re not gonna throw the toys out of the pram here. If anyone else would like to run the blog under those circumstances of zero moderation, we will be happy to hand over the domain. There is no “agenda” – we will be happy to hand the work over to others.
The initial posting which proposed the change to WordPress logins received over 130 TUs and only three TDs. Subsequently the post advising of the changes got around 100 TUs and 100 TDs. It seems that minds are not entirely made up.
To get some closure on this once and for all, we have added a poll below to end on Saturday at 1700 where you can decide whether you want to go along with our original plan in terms of login and moderation. We obviously recommend that you vote “Yes”
Am I allowed to comment yet ?
[TSFM – looks like it!]
You comment away pal
Well said. Keep up the good work.
Just when I’d posted a series of links to a variety of subjects. It’s a conspiracy I tell you 😉
It’s been said before but I’ll say it again. If you’re not happy discussing the hot topic of the day/month/year/history-of-Scottish-football then post something that you do want to talk about. If people want to pick it up, they will.
Does timing have anything to do with this new post? I voted yes anyway.
Lord Wobbly
Agree 100%. For all the people who criticise posts on here, I have had zero requests to post on the topic of their choice. It is easy to be negative.
To be fair I’ve just spent a couple of days advising people what NOT to post 🙂
Damn! I see what you did there 🙁
smallteaser says:
September 19, 2012 at 19:24
0 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
September 19, 2012 at 19:14
The non-payment of player wages at Hearts is set to be on the
agenda of a Scottish Premier League board meeting on Thursday.
http://www.football365.com/scottish-football/8092651/-
================================================
Why is the non payment of the television revenue not on the
agenda?
It affects all clubs not just Hearts, I would have thought this was more immediate than the Hearts players being 4 days late at this point.
Just wondered what the purpose is of an agenda when it would appear no published minutes are ever taken!!
Looking at the governance its made up on a day to day basis
anyway.
“Hearts have said they are seeking to swiftly resolve the latest
delay, which comes after a month which featured a glamour
Europa League tie with Liverpool, while all 12 Scottish Premier
League clubs are awaiting the latest instalment of television
revenue amounting to £300,000 per club.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No argument from me Smallteaser (are you Cheryl Cole?). Hearts cannot be held to have fallen foul of the rules when the (ahem) authorities are not fulfilling their obligations.
Must go. The games started.
completely OT I know but the usual web site I use to watch the football has ben blocked, can anyone suggest a site.
Ta
My only concern about using something else to log in is one of ability. I am not particularly technical so does this mean I won’t receive the emails? For example this is the first I have heard of the need for a word ….something or other to post a comment!
Should also have said you guys do a great job. I would be in blind ignorance if it was not for your sites. So thank you and keep up the good work.
exiledcelt says:
September 19, 2012 at 18:28
Exiledcelt, thanks for the link. Seeing the whole match would have been better – surely, the BBC aren’t trying to save Sevco’s blushes?!
Has anyone heard any more about Bocanegra’s situation? That has all gone quiet.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 – 1865)
Replace the word “fool” with the word “please”.
TSFM, might seem like a thankless task, as you can’t keep everybody happy all of the time !
But thanks for maintaining this blog.
Good job.
TSFM says:
September 19, 2012 at 19:44
2 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly
Agree 100%. For all the people who criticise posts on here, I have had zero requests to post on the topic of their choice. It is easy to be negative.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Call me a cynic, but that suggests to me that those who complain are more interested in disrupting the current hot topic than they are in discussing anything else. Either they are not confident enough to venture an opinion or they are trolling. If its the former, please don’t be shy. Just jump in and say what you want to say. We won’t bite *
* Hugh McEwan didn’t TUPE… did he? 😀
Hugh McEwan was Jose the Farmer on here but he was having problems with posts simply vanishing so he said he’d quit the blog iirc?
Despite actually quite enjoying my Human Right of Gloating, particularly when the recipient deserves it, I agree with this latest blog.
I will be interested to observe the carefully restrained ungloating should certain things come to pass, say in November soemtime.
I wonder why the new “login” name I created at WordPress isn’t the one that gets displayed, though. It still seems to pick it up from what I originally entered in the wee box thing at the bottom of the page, though it does show the new one in the top right.
Ach well, as long as it works.
TSFM
Well said.
What I don’t understand is why faced with a model that seems to be in permanent decline the MSM comtinue to peddle a style of reporting and churnalism that has seen them continuously lose readership and relevance as people simply increasingly turn away from media dinosaurs like keevins and traynor or younger colleagues like jackson, guidi etc. I don’t know how many eyeballs the rangers tax case or SFM manage to generate daily but at it’s height it must have run some of the MSM sports sites for readership? Anyway if you were the business management of the msm you must be comparing the decline of your product with the rapid rise of sites like RTC and questioning why supposed professional journalists are failing to gain the mindshare and relevance and eyeballs that a bunch of internet bampots managed in less than 18 months? Perhaps you might be wondering if RTC or BRTH etc might be a better option for your business than the MSM dinosaurs you employ who lose you sales week after week?
Great to hear that Darren Fletcher came on tonight
By the way, I don’t hear that guy saying “I hope” at all. Nothing even remotely like it.
He might be saying something like “another word, yeah” when the presenter is talking over him, just before Celtic fans get mentioned. “Word” doesn’t make much sense, where “war” would, though there’s definitely a hard “d” sound at the end of it.
He says: “Rangers fans will be up in arms and it’ll, it’ll … kick off. (Civil war, isn’t it?) Another word/war, yeah.”
Anyone that can hear “I hope” in there is utterly deluding themselves and hearing what they want to hear.
I strongly reserve my right to gloat at the travails of Sevco5088/whatever they’re calling themselves this week/The Rangers (delete where applicable) as and when the occasion arises.
Otherwise, WordPress login for me.
Angus there is two clips, have you listened to both?
TSFM – are there any plans for a Post from RTC ?
I’m also still waiting to learn about the ‘other’ information he/she stated would be released only after the FTT decision was public.
Larsson7 says:
September 19, 2012 at 20:01
0 0 Rate This
completely OT I know but the usual web site I use to watch the football has ben blocked, can anyone suggest a site.
A bit late I know, but save this for future use
http://www.vipboxsports.eu/sports/football.html
worked a treat for me tonight
Anneaptl says:
September 19, 2012 at 20:03(Edit)
My only concern about using something else to log in is one of ability. I am not particularly technical so does this mean I won’t receive the emails? For example this is the first I have heard of the need for a word ….something or other to post a comment!
____________________________________________________
Anneaptl,
I’ve added a “how to register” on the FAQ page.
Click here http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/faq/#register
I think bangordub is working on a better version, but this should get you started. It is straightforward. Any problems, go to the Contacts page and mail us.
Charlie Brown says:
September 19, 2012 at 21:22
Hugh McEwan was Jose the Farmer on here but he was having problems with posts simply vanishing so he said he’d quit the blog iirc?
——————————————————————————————————————————–
Philip José Farmer says:
August 16, 2012 at 20:38
OK
That’s two posts I have made on this blog subsequently deleted. Neither had offensive content and both were discussing things which others were discussing, and their posts weren’t deleted.
———————————————————————————————————————————-
If Philip is Hugh then this blog lost one of its best contributors.
Agreed. Thanks for all time and energy put into this site. It’s easy to be critical so I won’t – I think the site is a refreshing change from the usual fanzine sites, has more work to do and has been a perfect detox/desensitisation therapy to the crack cocaine that was RTC…I expect to be off that wagon again once the FTT and SPL panel report though… 🙂
TSFM, why have you posted a blog ot, shame on you.
You own the blog, if people don’t want to follow your rules and mechanism for posting then they don’t have to.
Can I ask if the following quote can be proven or is it just an opinion?
Do you mean the whole of Scottish football, certain clubs, governing bodies or all of these??
“There is real corruption in Scottish football. It is based not on religious rivalries but on greed and acquisitiveness. The only thing that matters is that we identify that corruption and help put an end to it.”
Hello again, i’m dipping my toe in to test the water.
I’ve chosen not to post over the last wee while due to personal reasons, but I believe that everyone is accountable for their words as their actions. I for one, believe that all contributors should be account holders, if you need to register before posting it will make you think whether its worthwhile to do so and therefore instil the feeling of personal accountability.
I believe that all fans of all clubs should and are, welcome here and I hope this not only continues, but improves. All the more reason for intelligent and reasoned posts and the need for moderation. Moderation is not censorship. If prospective contributors wish to spout puerile drivel and want to cast aspersions on the parentage of players, officials et al, then they can contribute on other sites. This site must remain above all the others that are readily accessible, we have the moral high ground, the difficulty lies in maintaining it and maintaining the dignity and integrity that this is on display here.
If keeping the high standards of the site mean both registration and moderation, then so be it. If you don’t like it, leave.
TSFM September 19 2012
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with your post and the sentiments therein, I think it will be a long term job if this blog is to reposition itself as a rallying point for all football supporters and fans. I’m not sure any group of people would have dissected their own teams activities in the forensic manner that RTC and SFM has done with regard to Rangers. I think (T)RFC fans will be reading but it might be too early for them to be drawn into the fold. There is much water yet to pass beneath the bridge. The anti-Rangers agenda (and I do not think this is an innaccuirate description) existed/exists for a reason and those reasons have not gone away, far from it. However it would be helpful if a discrimination is made, as many do (re the use of the term ‘decent bears’) between the activities of the club and business and those of the fans. If we could maybe just ‘bear’ in mind that those fans are our next door neighbours or work colleagues and let this moderate our language we might slowly bring them onboard. After all, as many have pointed out, the MSM’s partiallity, far from being supportive of their club, may indeed be a major reason for its current difficulties. Appreciate your efforts SFM. Will try to repay you in kind.
StevieBC says:
September 19, 2012 at 21:55(Edit)
TSFM – are there any plans for a Post from RTC ?
I’m also still waiting to learn about the ‘other’ information he/she stated would be released only after the FTT decision was public.
_______________________________________________
Stevie,
I had hoped that RTC would do a guest blog for us, but it just hasn’t come to pass. I assume that
(s)he is very busy, in the midst of writing a book which almost certainly be serialised 🙂
(S)he also intends to use the RTC site again in future on a read only basis to post the information that you alluded to above.
TSFM says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:14
0 0 Rate This
StevieBC says:
September 19, 2012 at 21:55(Edit)
TSFM – are there any plans for a Post from RTC ?
I’m also still waiting to learn about the ‘other’ information he/she
stated would be released only after the FTT decision was public.
_______________________________________________
Stevie,
I had hoped that RTC would do a guest blog for us, but it just
hasn’t come to pass. I assume that
(s)he is very busy, in the midst of writing a book which almost
certainly be serialised
(S)he also intends to use his site again in future on a read only
basis to post the information that you alluded to above.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gender slip-up in that last sentence TSFM 😯
How do you unite fans and welcome RFC supporters when 90% of the posts are against the a) current club they support or b) the club they used to support who created all of the new clubs history.
Look, even the way I have written this will not make the RFC fans feel that this is an inclusive site!!
I’m in. Can we entice Philip José Farmer to sign up?
Lord Wobbly says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:19(Edit)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gender slip-up in that last sentence TSFM
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Damn you again Wobbly!!!
Fixed 🙂
Totally confused.com with this new wordpress thing, think I’ll have to bid you all farewell 🙁 will I still be able to read comments? Just not post 🙂
Philip José Farmer says:
August 16, 2012 at 20:38
OK
That’s two posts I have made on this blog subsequently deleted. Neither had offensive content and both were discussing things which others were discussing, and their posts weren’t deleted.
Not acceptable I’m afraid, so good luck with your new blog guys.
———————————————————————————————————————————
As Hugh (Philip?) was stickler for accuracy, I feel that I have to post this again to include the last line (must improve cut and paste skill!).
midcalderan says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:20
0 0 Rate This
I’m in. Can we entice Philip José Farmer to sign up?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I prefered Hugh. Acerbic and amusing in equal measure. And I still say the Hugh and Adam show would be a winner 😀
Brenda,
Did you go to the link I posted to the FAQ page?
You will still be able to read – even of you don’t register, but please email us and we’ll get you sorted.
TSFM says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:04
To be honest, I had a guide done but your’s is simple and easy to use. I couldn’t improve on it.
May I suggest a “Helpline or email address” for those who need help post changeover?
bangordub says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:26(Edit)
_________________________________________
Email help is an excellent idea. Will add that tomorrow.
Geordie Bhoy says:
September 19, 2012 at 20:21
Has anyone heard any more about Bocanegra’s situation? That has all gone quiet.
=================================================================
His loan to Santander eventually went through then he went off to join the USA squad for a couple of world cup qualifiers. When he returned,he was in the squad last weekend but didn’t get off the subs bench. Still to make his debut for the basket case of a club he joined.
You thought CG was bad, he only does verbals. The Santander chairman was out in the car park challenging the clubs fans to fight. 🙂 I watched a video clip last week but cant remember where I saw it.
The “board menbers” all have bodyguards as their own fans have turned against them.
I posted this a while back when I found iut which club he was joining.
TSFM
Will give it another go keeps saying name e-mail address etc already registered???
Signed up on WordPress so just testing.
I find myself in a very strange position tonight. I have followed the RTC blog for a very long time and now here with TSFM.
And yet I found myself questioning the validity of the blog going forward due to one paragraph:-
“There is real corruption in Scottish football. It is based not on religious rivalries but on greed and acquisitiveness.”
The WATP attitude is absolutely based on religious rivalries IN MY OPINION. And yet TSFM tells me I have no right to hold that view.
I believe I do have a right to hold that view, but the beauty of a blog like this should be the fact that I can have that debate in a civilised manner.
I agree with moderation, however I totally disagree with censorship. The TSFM post tonight smacks of future censorship, therefore I had to choice but to vote NO.
I totally respect other people will have a different view from me, but it is not right that TSFM thrust her/his view on everyone.
More power to this blog, but be careful we do not turn it into an irrelevance.
I have only ever posted twice since RTC started ( and TU both times), however I fear TD this time.
Not trying to be controversial, just saying it as I see it
TSFM – I agree with the sentiment of the post and the importance of getting a balanced debate from ALL supporters groups from top tier to bottom rung. No problem either with the login – might be worth posting ‘an idiots guide to login via wordpress’ tab at the top of the page. I count myself amongst those who remain unsure as to the due process!
The dedication of the team behind the scenes is much appreciated by all, as is the self policing of some of the regulars on this site who have been adequately and appropriately chastising those who post comments which have slipped through the net.
As I see it, the reason the site was put together was to maintain a watchful eye over press and media figures to ensure that the systematic mugging of Joe-supporter is never allowed to be repeated in our footballing society again.
With respect to the gloating issue, I feel that to is an important part of the bigger picture of debate – within reason. Without it, life away from the match would be dull and boring.
Who was it that said ‘The first condition of progress is the removal of censorship’?
As I said – within reason!
I voted yes.
test
Having followed RTC and then TSFM for some weeks now, I think it is time I joined the debate rather than continue watching from the wings. I have very much enjoyed what i have read so far and feel more informed about the hot topics of the day. Thanks.
wordpress account is fine with me….even if i did have to add an extra ‘e’ !!
Brenda says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:30(Edit)
TSFM
Will give it another go keeps saying name e-mail address etc already registered???
______________________________________________________________________
So you must be registered then. Just make sure you have your password (the name you tried to pick will be your username).
When you posted this, did it say “Brenda:You are commenting using your WordPress.com account”
just under the comments box?
Not convinced by the “accountability” and “rise above it” aspect of the new format. Will give it a go as an observer for a while, see how it pans out. Good luck.
This blog is not going to be all things to all men and women, and some will feel they are being unfairly treated by moderators
It is the nature of the beast unfortunately, and if we want this blog to be something more than a run of the mill football forum, then we all need to accept some responsibility for making sure we keep the standards as high as we can
Signing in via WordPress is in my opinion no big deal, and I don’t think it will deter people from posting or joining in the debate
There has been a lot of comment on last night’s Sevco result, which some feel has no place on here, but given the amount of reckless boasting that has surrounded this new club, that was hardly surprising
I don’t think it was mega gloating as some may think, but more a case of enjoying Sevco and its supporters being brought down to earth
We all need to cut each other a wee bit of slack sometimes, whilst at the same time respecting each others point of view
TSFM
cheers hope it works 🙂 keep up the good work
Test
Campsie – well said!
Previously posted as Caveat Emptor, now appear to be stuck with my WordPress log-in. Any one please advise?
Kelly’s Heroes says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:38(Edit)
_____________________________________
You can hold whatever views you like, but please don’t put words in my mouth. I said nothing that remotely sounded or looks like you have no right to hold that view. I also did not attempt to thrust my view on anyone. Nor did I make any mention of the WATP mentality.
campsiejoe says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:46(Edit)
We all need to cut each other a wee bit of slack sometimes, whilst at the same time respecting each others point of view
_________________________________________________________
CJ. Correct. We are all big boys here and the Karma Police can be a bit gloomy. I think that aspect of it is a matter of degree. Last night I thought it became a bit OTT, but that is nothing compared to some of plain sectarian nonsense that was posted on here the other day by one poster.
“The anger for RFC’s mismanagement and abuse of the game in Scotland is real, but we need to look forward if we are truly committed to ensuring that what happened to Rangers can’t happen again.”
—————————
More people telling us to move,what a joke.Let’s be clear here,this situation arose because of who this club were,no other club would ever recieve the hand outs that RFC(IA) got and would have been punished very severly.
Sevco now get the every rule that there is broken for them,nothing has changed.It can happen again,it is still happening even now and while people like ogilivie and regan stay in their posts then this is the way it’s always going to be.We cannot move forward,we should not move forward until all the corruption and the people involved are dealt with.
You dismiss the possibility of a conspiracy to easily,SFA,SPL,SFL,SNP,HMRC?,JUDICARY? and the MSM all colluding to aide and abet 1 club SEVCO,sure does look like a conspiracy to me.
—————————-
As for other topics,are referees not part of scottish football,Do you (the mods) believe that refs in scotland can’t be corrupted?Just because you don’t think something can’t be true,does’nt mean that your right.I will believe what my own eyes tell me and you (the mods) can keep kidding yourselfs on.
Brenda September 19 2012 at 22:23
Brenda, see TSFM’s post at 20:03 to get the link and instructions. I just signed up having fumbled it on my first attempt. Only problem is that every username in the world appears to be already taken (must be a global WordPress attribute). You’ll need to find something pretty obscure for it not to be already taken. I’m still waiting for my confirmatory e:mail but assume that will be a formality. It is a wee bit ‘techy’ but you can do it.
Kelly’s Heroes says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:38
3 0 Rate This
I find myself in a very strange position tonight. I have followed
the RTC blog for a very long time and now here with TSFM.
And yet I found myself questioning the validity of the blog going forward due to one paragraph:-
“There is real corruption in Scottish football. It is based not on
religious rivalries but on greed and acquisitiveness.”
The WATP attitude is absolutely based on religious rivalries IN MY OPINION. And yet TSFM tells me I have no right to hold that view.
I believe I do have a right to hold that view, but the beauty of a
blog like this should be the fact that I can have that debate in a
civilised manner.
I agree with moderation, however I totally disagree with
censorship. The TSFM post tonight smacks of future censorship,
therefore I had to choice but to vote NO.
I totally respect other people will have a different view from me, but it is not right that TSFM thrust her/his view on everyone.
More power to this blog, but be careful we do not turn it into an irrelevance.
I have only ever posted twice since RTC started ( and TU both
times), however I fear TD this time.
Not trying to be controversial, just saying it as I see it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Long term readers of RTC will know that I have no time for religion. It is utter bollocks. But the fact remains that it does colour many peoples thoughts and actions. If it can be debated sensibly on here then this is a better blog than anyone could possibly have imagined. Alas I fear that will not be the case. Just look around the world. People will kill other people because of some perceived slight. FFS some people will not accept that Jesus could have married. Others will not accept a drawing of Mohammed. Like I said, it is bollocks, but if people will not discuss it, I have no idea what the answer is.
Deep huh!?
Checking WordPress login….
Already had a WordPress login ? Don’t remember signing up…must have been pre-rfc implosion..seems like a life time ago.
Guidi definitely says ” I hope “, touch of the McCoist about him.
the draft 5 way agreement seems to be printed in tomorrows daily record
TSFM hard job yourself and whoever else helps out running the blog, a job I can gladly say I wouldn’t enjoy. But fair play standing up against agenda’s etc which people in power hope people wont stand up-to as they believe everyone is far to dug in, depending on what side of the fence they sit. Which is still true to a degree which is why no one will ever agree 100% on here. Hopefully though through here we can try and clean up Scottish football even 10%, and get back to a respectable nation with a few good european sides and not just us glaswegian’s.
Thanks for the guide to registration. When I first tried to comment on RTC wordpress would not let be use the name above. As I had something pertinent (in my humble opinion) to relate I eventually joined using the name of one of my husbands successors. Thanks to you I am now free to be myself.
————————————————————–
Having received an email from amazon urging me to buy Downfall it occurred to me that all leggoistas going to Amazon to traduce the author and his work will be receiving similar communications. Imagine the response when they are told that Amazon feels they may be interested in ‘The Road to Lisbon’ , Celtic Paranoia laptop loyal diaries 1 + 2, Celtic, a Biography in Nine Lives’.
Do you think that the newco fans would contribute anything positive on here as this site is the follow on from the R.T.C. the site that contributed to the demise of rfc(il)
oldrab is there alink to this please.
oldrab says:
September 19, 2012 at 23
the draft 5 way agreement seems to be printed in tomorrows daily record
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/revealed-football-chiefs-secret-plan-1167046
FOOTBALL chiefs produced a secret plan to strip Rangers of five SPL titles and four Scottish Cups.
The bombshell document, seen by the Daily Record, was drafted after talks involving the SFA, SPL, Scottish Football League and representatives of Charles Green’s Sevco.
It outlines a range of punishments for Rangers for the Employment Benefit Trust tax dodge used by Sir David Murray’s regime to pay players.
If enforced, the penalties listed would be the harshest ever seen in football. They include:
? STRIPPING the club of their league titles from 2002/3, 2004/5, 2008/9, 2009/10 and 2010/11;
? WIPING OUT Rangers’ Scottish Cup triumphs of 2001/2, 2002/3, 2007/8 and 2008/9;
? FORCING Rangers to accept the one-year transfer embargo imposed by the SFA and overturned by the Court of Session;
? ORDERING Green’s newco to pay Rangers’ old football debts to clubs in Scotland and Europe.
The draft plan was clearly designed by the football authorities to parachute Rangers into Division One of the SFL and protect Scottish football’s TV and marketing revenues.
SFL chairmen voted overwhelmingly last Friday to place Rangers in Division Three, but the Record understands that does NOT mean the punishments in the secret plan will never be imposed.
The SPL will decide on August 10 whether Rangers broke their rules by using EBTs and “dual contracts”, and the document sheds light on the football authorities’ thinking over possible penalties for the club.
It remains a draft, and no agreement has been reached between Sevco and the authorities.
But it appears Green’s firm were willing to accept some if not all of the draft – at least when the prospect of Division One football was on the table.
And the scale of the penalties listed – before Rangers have even been convicted over EBTs – will horrify fans of the club.
Many Rangers supporters will also believe the document undermines the SFA’s judicial process.
The killer section of the document states: “EBT Sanctions means (i) the withdrawal of Rangers FC, RFC and Sevco of the award and status of Champion Club (as defined in the SPL rules) of the Scottish Premier League for each and all of seasons 2002/3, 2004/5, 2008/9, 2009/10 and 2010/11:
“(ii)The withdrawal from Rangers FC, RFC and Sevco of the award and status of winner of the Scottish Cup for each and all of seasons 2001/2, 2002/3, 2007/8, and 2008/9.”
The document also contains an ultra-strict confidentiality agreement. It states: “Neither RFC nor Sevco may make any disclosure to a third party, press release or public announcement whatsoever about, concerning or relating to this agreement … except with the express prior written consent of each of the SFA, the SPL and the SFL.”
The loss of five league titles would cut Rangers’ total from 54 to 49 and strip them of their status as the most prolific league winners in world football. Northern Irish club Linfield, with 50 titles, would take over.
Celtic finished second in all five of the SPL seasons listed. If the titles were stripped from Rangers and awarded to their Old Firm rivals, Celtic’s total number of championships would rise to 48.
The runners-up in the four Scottish Cups listed were Celtic, Dundee, Queen of the South and Falkirk. The document is silent on the issue of whether the clubs would be named as winners in place of Rangers.
The idea of stripping a club of nine trophies is unprecedented in modern football.
Italian giants Juventus were relegated and stripped of two titles for match-fixing in 2006. They continue to dispute the decision.
Another match-fixing scandal, in France, saw Marseille forfeit their 1993 league title. But they were allowed to keep the Champions League title they won in the same year.
The draft document also insists that Rangers must drop their legal challenge against the SFA transfer embargo, imposed largely as a punishment for the failure to pay tax under Craig Whyte.
The club went to the Court of Session and got the ban overturned. Judge Lord Glennie ruled that the association acted beyond their powers, and ordered them to reconsider.
The club enraged the SFA by going to law. The move also angered FIFA, who insist that clubs should not take their associations to court.
Experts warned that the world governing body could impose bans on Scottish clubs or even the national team unless Rangers backtracked.
The document says that as well as accepting the embargo, Rangers must pay the SFA’s £31,000 costs and the £160,000 fine imposed at the same time as the transfer ban.
The draft deal goes on to state that the Rangers newco will take responsibility for all the football debts run up by the “oldco” – a long list of unpaid bills owed to clubs in Scotland and on the continent.
The oldco went bust owing Hearts £800,000, Dunfermline £83,000, Dundee United £66,000, Celtic and Inverness Caley Thistle £40,000 each, and Aberdeen an undisclosed amount.
Another £1.8million is owed to clubs in England and Europe, including £1million to Austrian side Rapid Vienna for striker Nikica Jelavic.
Green has set off to meet officials from UEFA in a bid to settle the issue of the football debts.
He accepts that the problem must be resolved before newco Rangers can be accepted as members of the SFA. But he wants to strike a deal to make it easier for Sevco – and the club – to shoulder the burden.
He said: “There are certain old club debts to European clubs. It is about £3million, accumulated as part of the historical baggage.
“These are oldco debts newco has got to face up to.
“We want to be honourable. We are people who face up to responsibility. We don’t want them to be waived. We don’t expect them to be waived.
“But we want some help in meeting these because we do want to get Rangers back to the top of the pile.
“And when we do get back into Europe – whether it’s five or 10 years or 20 years – we want to walk back with our heads held high.
“I would like the clubs and UEFA to recognise these are not my debts, and for them to work with us where we can come to some amicably agreeable settlement and move forward together as friends.”
The SFA will consider Rangers’ application for membership next week.
As part of that process, the club’s new chairman, Malcolm Murray, met officials from the governing body yesterday to give more information on the identities of Sevco’s investors.
The SFA confirmed they had received information and requested more. They added that Rangers’ administrators, Duff & Phelps, had been carrying out “fit and proper person” checks on the proposed new directors of the club, alongside the SFA’s own investigations.
The SFA said they were “in dialogue” with Rangers over the transfer embargo row.
They added: “Now that the club’s status has been confirmed by the SPL and SFL, we will consider the award of transfer once Rangers FC satisfy the necessary criteria.”
If newco Rangers are accepted as SFA members, they will start their new season away to Brechin City in the Ramsdens Cup at Glebe Park on July 28.
timabhouy says:
September 19, 2012 at 23:12
0 0 Rate This
Do you think that the newco fans would contribute anything
positive on here as this site is the follow on from the R.T.C. the site that contributed to the demise of rfc(il)
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Absolutely
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc…t-plan-1167046 sorry this is the link to my comment at 23.06
OT. Who thinks TSFM should organise the first annual TSFM Christmas Night Out – first round on him – obviously! Suggestions for guest speaker? TU / TD!
TSFM says:
September 19, 2012 at 22:57
We all need to cut each other a wee bit of slack sometimes, whilst at the same time respecting each others point of view
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CJ. Correct. We are all big boys here and the Karma Police can be a bit gloomy. I think that aspect of it is a matter of degree. Last night I thought it became a bit OTT,
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Glad to see you kept your finger off the delete button. How many posts were there that were OTT, “in your opinion”? 99% of the posts are based on someones opinion. You cannot moderate based on yours, unless something is abusive or libelous. It got more OTT with complaints about people posting.
Look at tonight posts, they should really all be in an “About” thread, in my opinion, rather than on the main blog.
OldRab, any view of the “draft” five way agreement yet. Is it being criticised or lauded?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc…t-plan-1167046
It’s your hoose, so you pick the rules. I think you’re doing a grand job.
My own view is that this site should be one where fans of ALL teams (including Sevco/Rangers) feel comfortable and able to state their case.
It should be about sharing information and views about key issues surrounding Scottish football and the media.
Talking of which, I see that Portco Limited, a group of investors fronted by Scots-born Hibs fan Henry (Harry) Kerr of Avalaon Investment Services, has launched a takeover bid for Portsmouth.
Hmmmm . . .
timabhouy says:
September 19, 2012 at 23:12
Do you think that the newco fans would contribute anything positive on here as this site is the follow on from the R.T.C. the site that contributed to the demise of rfc(il)
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I hope they will contribute but I don’t think RTC or this site contributed to their downfall. They did it with no help from any outsiders other than MIH and the banks.