Make our Mind Up Time

I have been receiving quite a bit of  unflattering mail about the “agenda” being pursued on this blog. Depending on the correspondent, that is defined as  either denying people their civil right to gloat, hiding the “truth” that people of the RC faith are welcomed and encouraged to come to Ibrox, or indulging in Chamberlain-style appeasement with the banning of the “H” word and other incontrovertible rights-to-insult.

The objection to moderation of any sort appears to be at the root of these diatribes. Our position here in terms of moderation is clear. There is no “agenda” other than a desire not to be chasing up posts containing the rantings and ravings of partisan types who “demand” their right to be heard no matter how objectionable it might be to those hear it. We are not here to service a conduit for conspiracy theories based in Masonic Lodges or the Vatican. There are plenty of places where people can indulge in that kind of stuff, but the moderators here are just not interested. The administration of the site takes around four hours per day. That’s a long time trawling through posts which often set out deliberately to insult, abuse or otherwise cause offence – mildly or otherwise.

Our view is that the blog will only have cross-club support if we stick to what we can substantiate by fact or reasonably infer from the way things proceed. Further, we feel that if we are to gain credibility as an alternative source of news and comment to the MSM, that we need to cut down on the fansite type comments. There is no dignity (a word often used here) in calling the Rangers manager or their fans names. We need to maintain higher standards of impartiality than football fansites, because we know that a united fan base can actually make a difference as RTC did when the SPL chairmen were gearing up for a parachute for the new Rangers. OT discussions are fine, and often amusing, but they shouldn’t become the main reason to come here.

The requirement to have a WordPress account before posting here is not in any way draconian. It is designed to make people accountable for what they post whilst still maintaining anonymity, and therefore being exempt from moderation. Those who don’t like it are not being compelled to carry out any instruction – they only need go to a place where they don’t feel so constrained.

If the main issue of this blog becomes how the blog is being administered – or how the moderation policy is affecting the human rights of posters, we may as well just pack up now.

There have never been any objections to the suggested posting rules on here. We assume that people who post are reasonably intelligent. Therefore it seems fair to assume that those who have ignored the suggested posting rules did so deliberately. If that doesn’t happen, moderation is just not required.

If what we are trying to do fails because of our posting framework, then we will be blamed. We are certain though, that we can have no credibility if we indulge ourselves in conspiracy theories and constant references to anachronistic organisations, the Scottish school system, and the leanings of referees.

There is real corruption in Scottish football. It is based not on religious rivalries but on greed and acquisitiveness. The only thing that matters is that we identify that corruption and help put an end to it.

Our job is to ask questions and not jump to our own conclusions about the answers. That will divide us as surely as the realisation of the depth of the corruption united us. To be totally united as fans, we need to have more Rangers fans on here. Therefore we need to create an atmosphere that they can be comfortable with. Is that the case right now? The anger for RFC’s mismanagement and abuse of the game in Scotland is real, but we need to look forward if we are truly committed to ensuring that what happened to Rangers can’t happen again.

We’re not gonna throw the toys out of the pram here. If anyone else would like to run the blog under those circumstances of zero moderation, we will be happy to hand over the domain. There is no “agenda” – we will be happy to hand the work over to others.

The initial posting which proposed the change to WordPress logins received over 130 TUs and only three TDs. Subsequently the post advising of the changes got around 100 TUs and 100 TDs. It seems that minds are not entirely made up.

To get some closure on this once and for all, we have added a poll below to end on Saturday at 1700 where you can decide whether you want to go along with our original plan in terms of login and moderation. We obviously recommend that you vote “Yes”

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Tom Byrne

About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

2,133 thoughts on “Make our Mind Up Time


  1. Lord Wobbly says:

    September 20, 2012 at 19:08
    —————————————–

    Can I get a TU then 🙂


  2. If Celtic are guilty of condoning offensive behaviour by failure to act, then it is only right and proper that the SFA call them to account. Treatment without fear or favour is all I ask.

    However, I’d like to know exactly who the banner in question has offended and why. I have heard not one word of complaint about this from anyone. I think that is a perfectly reasonable question to ask and I will post any response from the SFA on here for all to see.

    Did any MSM churnalist ask this question?

    I think, after he has picked himself off the floor following a huge fit of laughter, Peter Lawwell will tell the SFA to go forth and multiply. It’s ridiculous.

    Finally, lanc @ 15.26. Well said mate, very ‘well said indeed (pardon the pun). That’s Chuckie telt!


  3. rab says:
    September 20, 2012 at 18:50

    … they are the undead so they are kinda unharmable.

    ——

    You set ’em up, someone will be along soon to knock ’em down.

    🙂


  4. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19661151

    20 September 2012 Last updated at 17:18

    Hearts say overdue wage bill has been settled
    Hearts say they have now settled their entire wage bill for August.

    Manager John McGlynn, a member of the Tynecastle coaching staff and six players did not receive salaries that were due on Monday.

    The Edinburgh club were repeatedly late in paying players last season, with three consecutive delays.

    Hearts were charged “with failing to behave with the utmost good faith to the Scottish Premier League”, although no penalty was imposed.

    All 12 top-flight clubs have still to receive about £300,000 each from the the SPL, who were due to discuss the latest wage delay at a board meeting on Friday.

    Hearts were also waiting for television revenue from their recent Europa League meeting with Liverpool.

    Prior to the late payment, McGlynn admitted it “might not be the last time” he would have to address the issue.

    But he was sanguine about the setback, saying: “It doesn’t concern me, really.

    “The money’s coming in from a very credible source; it’s not like we don’t think the money’s not going to come in.

    “It’s not like the last time when we were waiting on the money to come from Lithuania [where majority shareholder Vladimir Romanov is based].

    “I’m not that worried. My wife works, so I’m all right.”

    Earlier this week, Hearts said in a website statement that a “vast majority of its 45-man squad” had been paid their salaries in full and that those who had not “will be paid shortly”.

    McGlynn moved to Tynecastle from Raith Rovers, where he worked under tight financial constraints.

    And Hearts have pruned their squad size significantly in the last year.

    “No-one said there’s going to be ongoing issues with the wages, but you cannot be daft and think these things are not going to come up,” added McGlynn.

    “You hope they’re not going to come up, obviously, because it is a distraction that you could do without.

    “It has risen up and you have to deal with it, play the cards that you’re dealt.

    “The players have been here before, done it before and they’ve always been paid. It’s maybe not been on time, but they’ve always been paid.

    “They’re more comfortable with the situation right now. Like anyone they’d have preferred to have been paid on time and not had this issue, but they’ve dealt with it very, very well so far.”


  5. exiledcelt says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:07

    ==========================

    Is this the same Alex McCleish who allegedly received £1.7m through an EBT. Who presumably hasn’t paid tax on that money, so has potentially stolen about three quarters of a million pounds from the UK taxpayer.

    Is it that Alex McLeish, or a different one.


  6. J Maclure says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:12
    0 1 Rate This
    Lord Wobbly says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:08
    —————————————–
    Can I get a TU then
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Done


  7. I find the banner to be puerile and abhorrent. As Danish pointed out, the gunman looks an awful lot like an image from the Troubles. I would doubt this is accidental either, as you don’t kill zombies that way. (You cut their heads off.) And if you’re going to defend it as a symbolic piece, who exactly is the gunman supposed to represent – cause I don’t see anybody in real life stepping up to play that part yet? While I agree with exiledcelt and others who point out that justice in similar, perhaps more egregious, instances has been slower to engage, I would argue that Celtic have a valid case to answer here and that this is an excellent opportunity for both club and support to show that they are willing to let the rules and processes play out as they should (without engaging in whataboutery), and maybe even do a bit of self reflection about what we’re willing to tolerate and what we want to stand for as a support.


  8. Agrajag says:

    September 20, 2012 at 19:17

    exiledcelt says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:07

    ==========================

    Is this the same Alex McCleish who allegedly received £1.7m through an EBT. Who presumably hasn’t paid tax on that money, so has potentially stolen about three quarters of a million pounds from the UK taxpayer.

    Is it that Alex McLeish, or a different one.

    *************

    If it is the same guy that left Motherwell to go to Hibs for more money, them left to go to Rangers for more money, then became Scotland manager = and then left the Soctland job for more money in England and is now supposeldy “interested” in getting the Scotland job (hence his views on Fletcher being given and supposedly noticed!) then its the same bloke.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_McLeish

    Premier League Birmingham City’s approach to the SFA for permission to speak to McLeish about their managerial vacancy was refused,but on his return on 27 November 2007 from attending the draw for 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification in South Africa, he resigned his post as manager of Scotland and was announced as Birmingham’s new manager the following day.
    Honour dignity and loyalty – what more could you ask for

    Hey Campbell – gies a job – David says he will fill in for the loan for you again……

    Its all tickety boo!


  9. “I know when I joined Rangers my lawyer was with me and he said everything was tickety-boo and legal.”

    Hemmin, Alec, fa knitted you?

    Said what was tickety-boo, exactly? The method they were going to use to pay you? Ya big daft mop.

    “Even [former Rangers chairman] Sir David Murray came out a few weeks ago and said that there was nothing done illegally.”

    Well, nothing to question there, then, eh?

    I had to interview a guy under caution last week. A guy who we had photographs of, in the act of perpetrating a crime, and two sets of two wtinesses who corroborated each others’ stories of him being there and doing it. He flatly denied ever having been in that location, despite us sticking a photo of him there under his nose. A similar tactic to that employed by SDM.

    I was saddened when Big Eck went to Ibrox, after him being an utter hero for Aberdeen for so long. Well do I remember that curler from the corner of the penalty box against RFC at Hampden – a goal which, alone, had him marked down for immortality down Pittodrie Street.

    Since then, it’s as if he wore blue for his whole career and has been dipped in the oil drum of shame. He never gets a mention up here nowadays. I no longer associate him with AFC, despite all the good times. Sad.


  10. J Maclure says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:05

    Considering the banner came from an area at Parkhead where the The Green Brigade group have been known to participate in, and often start, pro-Irish Republican Army and Irish Republican chants it was’nt the wisest thing to depict a masked gunman firing at whatever.

    ================================

    I know what an pro Irish Republican Army chant is, but what is an Irish Republican chant.

    I am a republican. I believe that we should be governed by elected people. That we should have an upper and lower house, but that only people who have been elected should sit in them.

    I believe that any power by birth is wrong, and I find things like the monarchy, or Anglican Bishops sitting in the House of Lords, or indeed hereditary peers wrong and anachronistic.

    So tell me, what Irish Republican chants have you heard from the Green Brigade and what was wrong with them in your view.


  11. Big eck quote.

    “Even [former Rangers chairman] Sir David Murray came out a few weeks ago and said that there was nothing done illegally”

    Right, thats that sorted then, could he not have said this ages ago and saved my marriage.

    What if a whole host of lawyers, QC’s and judges say that stuff was done illegally, does that not have more credence than the arch suspect denailist.


  12. listening to SSB, good to hear Dawell etc sounding really concerned about the smoking in toilets, zombie banners, aggressive stewards yet for months he hasn’t been bothered to delve into the wrong doings of RFC (ia) or seem too concerned that our footballing governing bodies have broken every rule in the book.

    PS see Big Alex EBT McLeish is back spouting his views on various media. Maybe earning some extra corn to pay back his loans???


  13. posmill @19.18

    “as you don’t kill zombies that way. (You cut their heads off.)”

    I almost pee’d myself laughing at that comment. Cut their heads off?? Do you really??

    We have an expert on zombie extermination in our midst.

    I was wrong…I have pee’d myself…


  14. Angus – watching the Celtic try to compete against Aberdeen in the mid 80s – who alng with Dundee Ut and then Hearts were the rivals (where were Rangers?? How did we survive without them :-)), I was always thinking Alex was made to look god just because he had Willie Miller covering for him – but that goal made me see him in a new light. He was as you said revered quite rightly by Dons – and I expected him to be a Dons manager someday having spent his entire career as a player there. Leaving Hibs instead to move to Rangers and wearing that tie that seems to be madatory along with the brogues at Ibrox had me speechless – never saw that one coming at all!

    Now when I see him “Aberdeen” is one of the last things that go through my head – he has lost that connection – shame that!

    Still – must have been worth it for that free loan!


  15. Agrajag says:

    September 20, 2012 at 19:28
    ……………………………………………

    I am not going to get involved in that, thank you.

    Bluenose yes, monarchist I am not, Irish history, I’ll pass.

    But I just googled the Green Brigade and Irish republicanism and this paragraph is on their website, perhaps it may explain why the gunman on the banner was there, or maybe I am wrong.

    ‘As a club deeply rooted with Irish culture and history, the group expresses solidarity with Irish republican politicians and activists in their efforts to reunite the six occupied counties with the republic. The suppression and criminalisation of Irish republican songs by the government that was strongly objected by many Celtic supporters groups including the Green Brigade has revealed the narrow mindedness and clouded judgement of those in charge.’

    Just my opinion.


  16. Althetim says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:33

    I know you haven’t really peed yourself (although you might want to get your urine flow checked for unnecessary apostrophes), but if you don’t agree with what I say please state your case.


  17. Agrajag says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:17
    2 0 Rate This
    exiledcelt says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:07

    ==========================

    Is this the same Alex McCleish who allegedly received £1.7m through an EBT. Who presumably hasn’t paid tax on that money, so has potentially stolen about three quarters of a million pounds from the UK taxpayer.

    Is it that Alex McLeish, or a different one.

    =======

    No this is the Alex McLeish who received loans totalling £1.7M to which he has repaid hee haw


  18. posmill says:

    September 20, 2012 at 19:42

    Althetim says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:33

    I know you haven’t really peed yourself (although you might want to get your urine flow checked for unnecessary apostrophes), but if you don’t agree with what I say please state your case.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I totally disagree with you posmill. You don’t cut zombies head off, you set fire to them.

    Also, thank you for the grammer correction. I bow to your superior knowledge on matters lavatorial.


  19. J Maclure says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:05
     15 9 Rate This
    Considering the banner came from an area at Parkhead where the The Green Brigade group have been known to participate in, and often start, pro-Irish Republican Army and Irish Republican chants it was’nt the wisest thing to depict a masked gunman firing at whatever.

    Now before I get accused of all sorts let me state I abhor the idiots at Ibrox who indulge in sectarian singing, I wish it was just football rivalry.
    ————————————————-
    Are we back to subliminal messages like the cover of Downfall. Do not see a masked gunman firing….only see a black figure shooting a zombie…maybe we see what we want to see ?


  20. J Maclure says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:41

    Agrajag says:

    September 20, 2012 at 19:28
    ……………………………………………

    I am not going to get involved in that, thank you.

    =======================

    You can’t “not get involved” in something when it was you who started the subject.

    I take it you think their quote is somehow wrong. What are your feelings on American Republicanism, or any other country which has decided to operate as a Republic. What are your thoughts on Australian Republicanism, do you think it is the way to go.

    I don’t want to get involved in this particularly either. However you are the one who suggested there was something wrong with supporting Irish Republicanism. I disagree, because I think Republicanism is far fairer and more equitable than a monarchy, or any system where leaders are forced upon people.

    I would much rather be a citizen that a subject.


  21. I am a Celtic fan and I agree that the banner ‘sails pretty close to the wind’ with the shooter looking very much like a troubles-era mural. I imagine that PL will recognise this, cringe and wonder why, again?


  22. Althetim says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:33

    Are you saying I know my s*#@? Thanks!

    Okay, so zombies aren’t real and maybe I came across a bit stiff and pedantic with the line about cutting their heads off. I will defer to you – or anyone – on that. If that alone is what provoked your ridicule then I accept the punishment. If it was something else I said…well, I’m all ears. The point I was trying to make was that whoever created that banner made a conscious choice in using the gunman. That choice provoked revulsion in me, and ruined what could have been a spectacular gag.


  23. Angus says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:25

    I was saddened when Big Eck went to Ibrox, after him being an utter hero for Aberdeen for so long. Well do I remember that curler from the corner of the penalty box against RFC at Hampden – a goal which, alone, had him marked down for immortality down Pittodrie Street.

    Since then, it’s as if he wore blue for his whole career and has been dipped in the oil drum of shame. He never gets a mention up here nowadays. I no longer associate him with AFC, despite all the good times. Sad.

    exiledcelt says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:34
    0 0 Rate This
    Angus – watching the Celtic try to compete against Aberdeen in the mid 80s – who alng with Dundee Ut and then Hearts were the rivals (where were Rangers?? How did we survive without them ), I was always thinking Alex was made to look god just because he had Willie Miller covering for him – but that goal made me see him in a new light. He was as you said revered quite rightly by Dons – and I expected him to be a Dons manager someday having spent his entire career as a player there. Leaving Hibs instead to move to Rangers and wearing that tie that seems to be madatory along with the brogues at Ibrox had me speechless – never saw that one coming at all!

    _______________
    i worked in Govan shipbuilders in the eighties when his old man was working there as a platers gaffer he was a Bluenose and would have loved it if he been alive to see him become Rangers manager
    sadly he died of a heart attack on the way home one morning from the nightshift

    it wasnt a shock to me to see him end up there at some stage


  24. Oh and you still haven’t told me which Irish Republican chants they have joined in or started.


  25. Agrajag says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:11

    Personally, and based on nothing more than feelings, I think the share issue is intended to do two things.

    1, Get a return (profit) for the original investors.

    2, Supply sufficient money to get them through the season.
    ===============================================

    And point 2. is where I still don’t get it.

    I have no direct experience of an IPO, but I am assuming that Charlie can’t simply state in the Prospectus something alluding to “we need this money to keep us going to the end of the season”. 😉

    He has to sell the shares as an investment, with projected, ‘reasonable’ financials over several years, with explanations of exactly how the money raised will be invested to grow the business – i.e. it is most definitely not to fund an expected shortfall of working capital for current operations.

    And his projections can’t be just fantasy numbers for the bears, as he could be held personally liable (?) – and which professional service provider would want to be associated with a listing based on spurious information ?

    Hopefully someone could enlighten me as to how Charlie gets around the ‘Prospectus problem’ ?


  26. posmill says:
    September 20, 2012 at 20:06
    0 0 Rate Down
    Althetim says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:33

    Are you saying I know my s*#@? Thanks!

    Okay, so zombies aren’t real and maybe I came across a bit stiff and pedantic with the line about cutting their heads off. I will defer to you – or anyone – on that. If that alone is what provoked your ridicule then I accept the punishment. If it was something else I said…well, I’m all ears. The point I was trying to make was that whoever created that banner made a conscious choice in using the gunman. That choice provoked revulsion in me, and ruined what could have been a spectacular gag.
    ____________
    the fx channel on sky has the new zombie series the living dead on it and they shoot them in the head to kill them

    but i agree the sniper does look a bit suspect in the banner


  27. Agrajag says:

    September 20, 2012 at 20:05
    ……………………………………………….

    Oh come on give me strength, I think the image of the gunman may give away the type of support they have for Irish Republicanism. If you do attend Celtic Park or away games you will have heard these songs of support, not from all celtic fans granted.

    Take away the blinkers man, we have the same twats, different side of the coin, mores the pity.

    Nothing wrong with Republicanism, by the way.


  28. exiledcelt says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:34

    Angus – watching the Celtic try to compete against Aberdeen in the mid 80s…– but that goal made me see him in a new light. He was as you said revered quite rightly by Dons…
    ========================

    Just to add my tuppence worth: I also saw Eck in a new light at that time in the 80’s when it was reported that he was studying for accountancy exams. Got to be a nice bloke… 😉


  29. J Maclure says:
    September 20, 2012 at 20:14

    Agrajag says:

    September 20, 2012 at 20:05
    ……………………………………………….

    Oh come on give me strength, I think the image of the gunman may give away the type of support they have for Irish Republicanism. If you do attend Celtic Park or away games you will have heard these songs of support, not from all celtic fans granted.

    Take away the blinkers man, we have the same twats, different side of the coin, mores the pity.

    Nothing wrong with Republicanism, by the way.

    ========================

    Fake frustration, that’s an internet classic.

    You have problems with pro-IRA chants, I agree with you, I despise them, I would ban people for it.

    However you have yet to tell me what other Irish Republicanism chants you have heard and how they offended you.

    It was you who made the distinction, not me.

    “The Green Brigade group have been known to participate in, and often start, pro-Irish Republican Army and Irish Republican chants…”

    I support Irish Republicanism, as I support all Republicanism. You say there is “Nothing wrong with Republicanism, by the way.” So what’s your problem with it. One can only take it that if you have no issue with Republicanism then it’s just the Irish part which offends you.


  30. J Maclure says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:05

    ….. it was’nt the wisest thing to depict a masked gunman firing at whatever.
    _________________________________________

    You must have good eyesight – next you will be identifying the silhouette as the Lone Ranger or the Phantom of the Opera.


  31. posmill –

    don’t be so serious. I made no comment on your post other than the ‘heads off zombies’ thing. Please note the use of single apostrophes as I am paraphrasing, not quoting.

    You are entitled to an opinion, as are we all and I respect your right to make your point. However, when you remark so authoratively on offing zombies, you have to expect a little flack.


  32. RTC been tweeting again tonight

    Rangers Tax-Case ‏@rangerstaxcase
    Setting realistic figures for EBT result (as opposed to daft numbers thrown around by MSM), I expect £18-20m in bill + £18-20m interest.

    Rangers Tax-Case
    ‏ Every taxpayer will be left to foot the bill. I don’t expect that HMRC will even bother trying to get penalties.


  33. Agrajag says:

    September 20, 2012 at 20:23

    Think I’ll leave it there, I have said my piece, I think I have made my point very clear.

    Republicanism or Irish Republicanism, I have no problem with it.

    Violence or support for violence I have.

    The end.


  34. Andy says:
    September 20, 2012 at 20:32

    =========================

    So £36m – £40m, not including any penalties. Call it £50m with the penalties.

    Hardly worth mentioning, I don’t know what all the fuss was about


  35. J Maclure says:
    September 20, 2012 at 20:34

    Agrajag says:

    September 20, 2012 at 20:23

    Think I’ll leave it there, I have said my piece, I think I have made my point very clear.

    Republicanism or Irish Republicanism, I have no problem with it.

    Violence or support for violence I have.

    The end.

    ————————————————-

    So that would be totally different from your original post.

    Thanks for the retraction, it’s appreciated.


  36. I think that the “Celtic minded” on this forum (and I am one) should cut J Maclure a bit of slack. He does make his points in an articulate, sober and unabusive manner, and should be given credit for that.

    I don’t agree with much of what he says, but then I don’t agree with every single point made by other posters either. I feel that some are getting a bit worked up simply because he is proud to admit to being a “bluenose”. Well, personally, I think we need more reasonable “bluenoses” on this forum, not less.

    And could we please not discuss Irish politics here? We all have our views, my own probably a lot more extreme than most, but this is no place to express them. In my opinion, anyway.


  37. Agrajag and Mr McLure

    Is this a ten minute argument or have you paid for the full half hour?


  38. Yet another wacky day for the SFA. Surely they are due some sort of scientific recognition for being the first group to discover the existence of the previously only speculated upon zombies?

    Won’t someone please think of the poor zombies?


  39. Agrajag says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:17

    exiledcelt says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:07

    ==========================

    Is this the same Alex McCleish who allegedly received £1.7m through an EBT. Who presumably hasn’t paid tax on that money, so has potentially stolen about three quarters of a million pounds from the UK taxpayer.

    Is it that Alex McLeish, or a different one.
    —————————–
    A reasonable estimate of the tax due on a take home pay of £1.7m would be £1.33m plus NIC.


  40. I was trying to find a story from last year where a judge dismissed a case against a Hearts fan for signing sectarian songs, TBB as there were no Celtic fans present. I think it was at a Cowdenbeath game as he was already barred from Tynecastle..
    It was round about the same time as John Wilson assault charge on Neil Lennon was ongoing.
    Could Celtic use this defence as there was no offence caused as there were no zombies present?


  41. neepheid says:
    September 20, 2012 at 20:45

    I think that the “Celtic minded” on this forum (and I am one) should cut J Maclure a bit of slack. He does make his points in an articulate, sober and unabusive manner, and should be given credit for that.

    =======================

    I tend just to ignore the bloke, much of what he says is just obvious whataboutery, the fact that he does it in a reasonable manner is appreciated but doesn’t change anything. He is expressing his opinion, and has every bit as much right as anyone else.

    However I reserve the right to object to people saying things which I strongly disagree with.

    He has an issue with pro-IRA chants, as I have said I totally agree and would ban anyone doing it. However at the same time he likened them to being pro Irish Republican, as I have said I am a Republican and would dearly love our own country to be one. I really do despise the notion of power being hereditary. Even that which is only titular.

    In addition, I am not aware of any “chants” of that nature at Celtic Park or elsewhere. If you take away the pro-IRA chants what Irish Republican chants are left.


  42. Looks like the banner has got up someone’s nose at the SFA, after all the pash recently about the sevco franchise being a continuation of the old rangers, complete with ‘bought’ history etc. Someone does not want to be reminded of what really happened and does not take kindly at being mocked.

    I hope whoever owns the banner does a modification to the banner and erases the gunman and brings it to every game. I reckon he should replace it with the character ‘Ash’ from the Evil Dead movies complete with chainsaw. Job done.

    By the way just heard that the complaint actually came from a couple of real life zombies who did’nt take kindly to being linked to oldco.
    I’ll get my coat then……


  43. MrB says:
    September 20, 2012 at 20:00
    5 2 Rate This
    J Maclure says:
    September 20, 2012 at 19:05
    15 9 Rate This
    Considering the banner came from an area at Parkhead where the The Green Brigade group have been known to participate in, and often start, pro-Irish Republican Army and Irish Republican chants it was’nt the wisest thing to depict a masked gunman firing at whatever.
    Now before I get accused of all sorts let me state I abhor the idiots at Ibrox who indulge in sectarian singing, I wish it was just football rivalry.
    ————————————————-
    Are we back to subliminal messages like the cover of Downfall. Do not see a masked gunman firing….only see a black figure
    shooting a zombie…maybe we see what we want to see ?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Within the context of the Green Brigade, there is no doubting what the character shooting is supposed to represent. It has no place at Celtic Park.


  44. 2 years ago next weekend, I lost my Father. He was a dyed in the wool, lifelong Rangers fan and so were his Father and brothers, they were from Presbytarian stock. He married a Catholic, and in a round about way, thats how I ended up being a lifelong Celtic fan. Out there, there always has been an honest, working class socialist Rangers supporting element, without the entrenched bigotry and had my Father and his Father not been cremated, they would be turning in their graves now at what has happened to their club.

    I think the Rangers story over the last 30 odd years really reflects the British story. Overtaken by selfish, self interested loud mouthed bullying boorish spivs, and it is a shame for the ordinary punter who never had any control over events.

    I have family, friends and colleagues who are Rangers fans, and while in all honesty I have laughed and enjoyed the clubs humiliation and demise, there is a part of me (probably just because I miss my Dad) that feels sorry for the ordinary guy. In the RFC fiasco, and in Britain. They exist, they are decent, and they are seldom heard.


  45. If the banner was designed in deliberate reference to troubles past, clearly it’s wrong…even if only in terms of damaging the name of Celtic. In the absence of proof however, the jury’s out. My guts tell me it’s harmless humour at Sevco’s expense.
    For me, the greatest offence is surely a toss-up between either the mixed metaphors on display, or the primates at being depicted as a bear 😉

    bbg


  46. I originally posted the old “you can only kill zombies by chopping their heads off” gag in an attempt to divert the blog.

    Did it work.

    Zombies don’t exist so you can’t kill them. Mwahahaha.


  47. Lord Wobbly

    ‘Within the context of the Green Brigade, there is no doubting what the character shooting is supposed to represent. It has no place at Celtic Park.’

    I remember the day after this banner was displayed. There was no outrage whatsoever, until a couple of ‘respected’ RFC bloggers, feigned mock outrage. A campaign ensued over the coming days to complain about this. It’s their way of hitting back at the biased authorities and media, as they see them.

    Best emphasised by the caller on SSB who was offended by the ‘bigoted’ banner(as he referred to it) despite never having seen it.

    Most Scottish media outlets are also referring to the ‘green shamrock’ on the shooters chest, which doesn’t exist, they don’t know this because their running the ‘story’ NOT the facts.


  48. Psssst.

    Steviebc

    Can you give us a specific time when you expect to return safely from your covert mission so we can launch any rescue operation in timely fashion.

    P.S

    the flat cap heads west at dawn.


  49. The Banner.
    ==========

    If I have got this right, the complaint has been ‘lodged’ almost 2 months after the game itself ?

    I am guessing whoever took offense was not at the game, but maybe saw it on t’internet recently ?

    I was at the game with my family, in the family section next to the Norwich fans.

    Whilst I did see the banner myself, at the time I had no idea what it was about and I had no idea it was linked to Sevco. [However, up close I can see why it is objectionable.]

    My family was more distracted by the old Norwich fan wandering about with his arm up a monkey’s bum ! [You had to be there… ;)]


  50. Andy says:
    September 20, 2012 at 20:06

    Re: Eck.

    i worked in Govan shipbuilders in the eighties when his old man was working there as a platers gaffer he was a Bluenose and would have loved it if he been alive to see him become Rangers manager
    sadly he died of a heart attack on the way home one morning from the nightshift
    ——-
    A shame. If Eck thought of his father while signing the contract, then more power to him. Everyone wants to do something to make their Dad proud.

    He never did heed the AFC fans’ banner “Agent McLeish – Mission Accomplished. Return To Base” when his RFC were on a downer and a bit of a laughing stock. One of the better banners I’ve seen at the fitba. 🙂


  51. Here, I’m just thinking – wasn’t Dobbin supposed to be dishing up some beans after being given some magic apples by now?

    Tuesday this week, wasn’t it?


  52. We don’t need any trolls to deflect us on this blog, just a stupid SFA decision ( yet again) and we can be sidetracked for hours.
    Why not treat this banner distraction with the same contempt the SFA have shown for fans over many months and simply view it as the irrevelance it clearly is. Giving it any degree of importance simply plays the same game as them.


  53. rab says:
    September 20, 2012 at 21:27

    Psssst.

    Steviebc
    Can you give us a specific time when you expect to return safely from your covert mission so we can launch any rescue operation in timely fashion.

    the flat cap heads west at dawn.
    ==========================

    Thanks for your concern rab. 😉

    Mission tonight is due to commence about 1930 local time, but don’t tell anyone.
    I hope to post a report by 0000 local time.
    If my hunch is wrong I won’t have much to report !


  54. [Reposted for hvnch, d’oh!]

    rab says:
    September 20, 2012 at 21:27

    Psssst.

    Steviebc
    Can you give us a specific time when you expect to return safely from your covert mission so we can launch any rescue operation in timely fashion.

    the flat cap heads west at dawn.
    ==========================

    Thanks for your concern rab.

    Mission tonight is due to commence about 1930 local time, but don’t tell anyone.
    I hope to post a report by 0000 local time.
    If my hvnch is wrong I won’t have much to report !


  55. Althetim says:
    posmill –

    don’t be so serious. I made no comment on your post other than the ‘heads off zombies’ thing. Please note the use of single apostrophes as I am paraphrasing, not quoting.

    You are entitled to an opinion, as are we all and I respect your right to make your point. However, when you remark so authoratively on offing zombies, you have to expect a little flack.
    =============

    Fair dos and point taken – also, my apostrophe comment was a cheap shot and I apologize to you and the blog for that – it’s churlish and doesn’t take us anywhere – I may even give it a TD myself.

    p.s. per Palacio’s comment above, I’d love to see the banner return with a better, less paramilitary-y ending.


  56. Vanguard Bears statement.. would be good to hear from the ‘ legals ‘ on this site

    On the 25th June lawyer Rod McKenzie, on behalf of Harper McLeod, issued the first draft of the 5 party agreement after a number of round the table discussions from the previous week involving all parties involved in Rangers attempts at gaining a licence to play football from the SFA.

    Included in the first draft were SFA EBT sanctions, SPL EBT sanctions and SFL EBT sanctions.

    The SFL ones were removal of the League Cup victories for seasons 01/02, 02/03, 07/08 and 08/09.

    At no time in the previous discussions was actual removal of trophies ever openly discussed and debated. These were inserted into the agreement with absolutely no prior consultation with the SFL.

    As a result, the SFL immediately objected and on the same day, threatened to withdraw from the entire process as a result. The SFL was not willing to be party to a process that set out to convict and sentence a Club who had not even been charged, had the case heard, never mind being found guilty. This is way before even any Commission was ever appointed to look into it.

    As a result of this, the second draft had the SFL sanctions removed and they were never brought up again in any future revision or discussion.

    The questions that have to be asked are;

    Who formally instructed HM (acting for SPL) to insert the sanctions in the first draft?

    If it was the SPL then there should be SPL Board minutes available to show their agreement to inserting the sanction clauses. Proof of this would provide the public with clarity about the process. When are they going to issue them to the public for perusal?

    If there are no SPL Board minutes available to back up the instruction then who actually instructed HM?

    If it was the SFA then that would be a very strange set of circumstances as HM were not acting for the SFA, that was Levy Mcrae. Levy Mcrae were actively involved in the discussions and were directly representing the SFA position in the process and actually provided a few amendment requests to HM on the SFA behalf.

    If it was neither of the above then HM have some serious questions to answer. Who did formally instruct them to include all the sanctions?

    Maybe they could put forward the defence that they were merely putting together all the previous discussions and debate into a document to move things along however, it is unclear if that is allowed under Law Society rules. And, more importantly, as there was never any previous discussion about removing SFL trophies, that could not be the case.

    All firms of Solicitors are supposed to have clear written instructions to carry out work on behalf of any ‘client’ and also carry out necessary anti money laundering checks on these clients prior to accepting any appointment. No solicitor would carry out substantial works unless they had clear direct authorisation and instruction so that they could allocate and charge the fees for the work. Where were the hours worked charged on their fee ledger?

    It is now up to HM to declare publicly, who formally instructed them to include the sanctions. It would surely be in the best interests of HM to provide clarity to the football world.

    We await a response.


  57. smartie1947 says:
    September 20, 2012 at 21:34

    We don’t need any trolls to deflect us on this blog, just a stupid SFA decision ( yet again) and we can be sidetracked for hours.
    Why not treat this banner distraction with the same contempt the SFA have shown for fans over many months and simply view it as the irrevelance it clearly is. Giving it any degree of importance simply plays the same game as them.
    ——————————————————————————————–
    I think you are missing the point…. its not the banner. Its the fact that 2 months after it was shown the SFA have called it offensive.
    Never, let me say this again, never, have Rangers or The Rangers been pulled up for their objectionable and offensive song book by the SFA.
    In fact both the SFA and a government representative praised the same song book when it was give the full belt for 120 minutes at a league cup final.
    This is not an irrelevant it is odious. Celtic must turn up at this meeting and defend with as much “whataboutery” as they can. The SFA are pushing out the strawclutchery a bit far this time.


  58. When are the SFA going to deal with that pernicious rot that is the songbook.


  59. Smallteaser @9.53

    I totally understand your sentiments and how in the view of every fair-minded football fan, there is absolutely no comparison between a single banner at a friendly against Norwich and what we have seen at every small SFL3 ground since the start of the season.
    Where I believe you are wrong however is to suggest that Celtic’s response should be to “turn up at this meeting and defend with as much whataboutery as they can.” Celtic have won many friends amongst neutral supporters over the last 6 months by doing exactly the opposite. By making no inflammatory statements on RFC/Sevco’s woes, they have given the MSM nothing to attack.
    By all means confront the SFA at said meeting, but keep such a response in-house and make no public statements before or after any SFA decision. Let the public make up their own mind on the merits or otherwise of the SFA case. This tactic has worked perfectly to date and should continue.


  60. jean7brodie says:

    September 20, 2012 at 22:11

    When are the SFA going to deal with that pernicious rot that is the songbook.
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    Never. Politically speaking, those that sing these songs are “the fabric of society” here in Scotland. I’m pretty sure that Alex Salmond will verify the quoted remark within my comment. We do have the illusion of democracy and freedom of information for those who wish to seek it, and are then refused because it is not in the publics interest.


  61. smallteaser says:

    September 20, 2012 at 20:58(Edit)

    I was trying to find a story from last year where a judge dismissed a case against a Hearts fan for signing sectarian songs, TBB as there were no Celtic fans present. I think it was at a Cowdenbeath game as he was already barred from Tynecastle..
    It was round about the same time as John Wilson assault charge on Neil Lennon was ongoing.
    Could Celtic use this defence as there was no offence caused as there were no zombies present?

    ____________________________________________________________

    Why can’t we just be adult about it and admit that the banner was inappropriate, provocative in its imagery and way beyond what reasonable people would call funny. Take away the violent iconography and it’s just a daft bit of fun, but a guy clearly firing a gun at a Rangers fan is way beyond that.

    The timing doesn’t matter. The banner was crass and implied (I suspect deliberately) violence. Whataboutery will yield no justification for it either. I hope that the Celtic fans on here as a group are better than to attempt to justify this.

    Today was the first I heard about or saw the banner. It made me sick. I like a laugh like most of us, but I find nothing even remotely amusing about it.

    I am certain that Celtic will not look to put any excuse forward, because even although they could justifiably say they had little control over its display, they will most likely come to the conclusion that they have to take the hit for the crass mentality that created it.


  62. CW says:
    September 20, 2012 at 22:22

    p.s. For all the TD Contributors, Just where exactly do banners/ images of Shadowy Gunmen fit in with a game of football ??

    That goes for both Green and Blue sides BTW !!!!!!! ‘Cos your both as bad as each other !


  63. Just checked Charlie Boy’s travel plans on RM with regard to his USA and Canada tour. I was struck by his statement “meeting Chuck Blazer in NYC tomorrow”…
    Rewind – this is the same Chuck Blazer who is under investigation by FIFA for redirecting cash from CONCACAF into his personal property deals. Charlie’s networking continues to impress!


  64. CW says:
    September 20, 2012 at 22:22

    The banner was offensive, c’mon catch a grip. The figure with the rifle is shooting a ZOMBIE ffs, not a person, lighten up. If you feel that bad about it make sure you Stay a way from the 28 days later films and any George A Romero flicks, plenty of zombies being shot by soldiers and the army in them.
    PL and Celtic should fight this and ask the question who is offended and why?


  65. Lay off McLeish. He’s been misquoted. I’ve heard the audio, put the MP3 on a loop on Audacity, and he clearly said “it was all a Ticketus boob”. Not sure he was talking about EBTs though.
    Moving on – why are the Emergency services providing cover at Ibrox? Have the relevant bodies carried out a credit check given their experience with the prevous company/club? Wasn’t Sevco’s credit limit around £1000? Are they being paid in advance? Are we being stiffed again?


  66. smallteaser says:
    September 20, 2012 at 21:53

    In fact both the SFA and a government representative praised the same song book when it was give the full belt for 120 minutes at a league cup final.

    =================================

    You forgot Assistant Chief Constable Campbell Corrigan praising the fans for that final as well.

    The whole episode, and how the authorities reacted to it was deeply disturbing. It really put everything in perspective.


  67. smallteaser says:
    September 20, 2012 at 21:53

    The politics behind it being pursued at this particular point in time stinks massively, but it stinks in a way that could drag Celtic into the much bigger media cesspool. Could Celtic make their own massive stink about governing body inconsistencies? No doubt. But defending it in those terms opens up the door to the argument that Celtic are somehow connected to this story – tenuously and tangentially for sure, but when has that ever stopped the MSM? They also run the risk of being tarred with “defending terrorist sympathizers” – and you bet your granny that tune would be blasted to the rafters by the MSM. The MSM has been looking for linkage with Celtic since day one of this story, and the club’s silence throughout this whole thing has been their greatest defense from all of that. I think they should see the process through and take their lumps if it comes to that. Containment should be the club’s priority here – it’s about what constitutes acceptable expression from football fans and no more. It’s got feck all to do with what’s happening in Govan/Monaco/Yorkshire. No linkage!


  68. TSFM says:
    September 20, 2012 at 22:35

    TSFM you have got the whole thing wrong, the most important part, it is not a rangers fan being shot at, it is a zombie, get it? not real, bit of a laugh, no.


  69. Palacio67 says:

    September 20, 2012 at 22:51(Edit)

    TSFM says:
    September 20, 2012 at 22:35

    TSFM you have got the whole thing wrong, the most important part, it is not a rangers fan being shot at, it is a zombie, get it? not real, bit of a laugh, no.
    _______________________________________________________

    No

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