Moving On Time?

ByAndrew Smith

Moving On Time?

Football is indeed a funny old game.
In a year of pandemic misery our national sport has lifted the spirits of a tired and cynical nation.
Dominic Cummings is leaving number 10, the Brexit deal hasn’t been done, lockdown is on the horizon in the West of Scotland, etc. BUT all we want to do is talk about and relive our team finally doing the business.

For once lady luck came down on our side.

If we been the team to miss our last penalty and had the Serbians scored then Serbian Football would be £10million plus better off and it would be their team heading for Hampden and Wembley.

We’d still be in the doldrums and a Pandemic-accelerated financial basket case.

Scotland is now in their first finals since France 1998 and the nation is smiling and talking positively.

There is no doubt that Steve Clarke’s influence has been huge and we all owe him a real debt especially the bean counters at Hampden who must have been hiding behind their settees hiding their eyes through extra time and into the shoot-out.

Scotland is playing more like a club team with a binding spirit rather than a group of individuals who have just met, are there for the match fee and want to stay in their previous cliques.

The dark side is never far away though.
Overconfidence is always an issue when Scotland wins a few games.

Journalists are now filling pages talking about our 9 game unbeaten run and digging up statistics from the past about what 10 in a row would mean.

The fact that since we got humped 4-0 by Russia we’ve been playing second and third level teams rather than the big boys is somehow never mentioned as a counterbalance.

That we have qualified after 2 penalty shoot outs with a statistically unlikely 10 out of 10 consecutive strikes is put down to practicing penalty taking better than Israel and Serbia.

The two games in the next 4 days might extend our run or not – it doesn’t really matter.

We have the big prize for now and qualified against the odds.
Records will show the much higher ranked Norway and Serbia teams will be at home.

Ok we’ll be at home too but playing at Hampden and Wembalee.

Scottish Football on the park has rediscovered and is redefining teamwork.

Nothing else in our game or set up has changed
(That is a discussion for many another day though).

The success of our team is to a great extent serendipitous.

It’s not something anyone in a suit at Hampden has facilitated or can take credit for outside of hiring Mr Clarke who as Chic was telling us yesterday was the obvious candidate.

The right manager, Steve has gathered a promising group of players and with them negotiated a series of testing challenges.
The stark reality is sometimes the recent games have been painful to watch but progress in baby steps has been noticeable and we genuinely played well against the more fancied Serbia.

Teamwork has been our bedrock.

Teamwork that has been missing for a long time in our international set up and I would argue throughout our game behind the scenes.

Yes we lost a silly goal at the death but Serbia is some 15 places above us in the FIFA rankings and on the night we were by far the better side.
The same Serbian team that had just returned from Oslo having taken apart the much-vaunted Norwegian side.

Steve Clarke has been the catalyst that has facilitated the unforeseen move from Scotland being a team of self-interested individuals into one with the team spirit.

Yes Steve We Can Boogie.

The Scottish team has moved on and the future is brighter on the international stage.

I understand too why many previously ardent Scots fans had distanced themselves from the team as a personal protest against The SFA and their actions over the last few years.
I get that.
But listening to Ryan and Andy and Lyndon and Steve was enough to demonstrate that these guys are playing for the country and their folks back home and not the blazers or the system.
I buy into their passion and that alone is enough to bring even the stubbornest fans back aboard.

When Big Pink asked me to write a blog about the future of this site a couple of weeks back I said I would like to lurk for a few weeks and do some digging.

I have lurked and gone even further back too.

Top line is the SFM blog is not what it was but you all know that.

Here is Some Feedback

Bit by bit; imperceptibly over the months and years the site has entrenched into the home of the anger and the facts against what John Clark has come to call “The Big Lie”.
Its about how the authorities dealt with the financial collapse of Rangers and set the scene for a series of mayhemic events since.

It’s a big Scottish football story and a good insight into how the game managed itself

But other things have been happening since and football has broken out.

One of you said just yesterday
“This site has become a single issue site only becoming alive when something IBROX is current”.

That is partially true and is something to address because it diminishes what this site can achieve.

The number of posters has eroded since the RTC days and the number of clubs represented by posters has also diminished. The site was always a little Celtic minded but open and welcoming of all clubs at the same time.

Some of that goodwill leaked away in this summer’s SPFL pantomime season when self-interest and the quest for 10 became a subconscious position for some of your group.

The level of politeness and the moderation on the site has however remained a huge asset and is almost unique.

This openness has led recently to one serial troll reappearing after several previous monikers and he/she/they have been playing games with several well know posters. The resultant “dancing on a head of a pin” conversations are not so much “Monitoring Scottish Football” as “doing people’s heads in” and this episode has not helped.
That being said I wish salmon were as easy to hook as some on here.

I don’t think there are enough Headline Blogs like this one and in the past I’ve been told many new blogs are simply skimmed politely and ignored as the discussion reverts to the ongoing various fall outs of the consequences of the infamous secret 5 way agreement and all that has ensued following that particular monumental administrative cock up.

I well remember too and liked Stunney and his papers every morning and even though most of what is written in the back pages of the red tops is there to fill space it was still fun to read.

At the same time there has been so much going on that would have benefitted from the forensic discussion that SFM posters brought to the party.
The court reporting by John Clark, EasyJambo and others has been quite dogged, incredibly insightful and shown up the media on many an occasion.

As the subjects under discussion on SFM became narrower I think the site stopped attracting new blood and also accelerated the departure of valued posters.

The diminishing site then became easier for serial disrupters to play with and the ever-decreasing circles metaphor has probably become a reality.

Finally, the adverts on the site that appeared, as if by magic, a few years ago do not deliver enough revenue to justify the inconvenience to readers.
I can’t read the site on my phone without clicking into people trying to sell me stuff I have no interest in.

That’s just a summary of my views as someone who values what this site has brought over the years.

Is it Time for a Reboot at SFM?

I’d say yes and here are a few suggestions to get you thinking and to start a discussion ahead of Big P and his monitors taking some decisions.

Scottish Football needs an independent conscience.

Scottish Football will be the stronger for it.

SFM can be a huge part of that.

Not all fans will want to be part of it because many just want to support their teams and that is fair enough but without a fan voice and without real analysis of what is really going on all that will happen is we’ll get more of the same that took us into the football wilderness.

And without the right changes even Steve Clarke will run out of steam one day when the penalty gods favour some other side.

So here are 5 ideas for SFM to consider

1 A Regular Blog
This doesn’t have to be written for us like in the past– it can just be a weekly news pick that we highlight to set a discussion agenda.

2 The Creation of a John Clark Wall where we hold the facts about the run up to and the creation of his “big lie”.
Set it all our logically and leave it alone for a future date.
It won’t go away because the action created issues for everyone involved.
It should be constructed for all fans with no jelly and ice cream flavouring.

This action would makes SFM the experts and place to go to read what really happened, helps get that monkey off everyone’s back and can be revisited every February 14th or when something turns up.
It might throw more light too in why we are rejoicing about Scotland getting a £10M windfall from qualifying while nobody is talking about the £80M court case costs heading our way as a nation.
All out of a secret 5 way construct back in 2012 and good for nobody whoever you support.

In the meantime SFM should broaden the discussion on other areas like the dropping of the pyramid, the secrecy inherent at the SFA, SPFL and their JRG, Strict Liability, etc. etc. etc.

3 The return of likes for posts that are good or if you agree but with a difference.
I occasionally post on another site which is free to read for anyone but if you want to post or like another post you have to be registered and all likes show the name of the person who has posted.

4 A consideration for different threads at the same time.

5 No ads.
Sponsorship is fine and banner ads for sponsors too but no commercial links that wheech you off to pastures unknown.

Evolution rather than Revolution

I look forward to the debate and to working with Big Pink and his team.
As chair of the largest Scottish group of fans the SFSA (If you’re not a member please join) I know that the only certainty is that fans will never agree about everything or sometimes even anything.

The tribal and competitive nature of football sets us against each other and causes divisions and disagreements that can become entrenched.
Some would say that is part of the fun of it all.

That being said we do generally agree and care deeply about the following.
We want vision, leadership and most of all fairness and transparency.

All alien words in our game as is.

OK Scotland has qualified for a major championship but our game is still locked in a self-interest framed self-imposed wrestling hold and the fact is that escape will never happen without change.

SFM and SFSA can both be part of that.

About the author

Andrew Smith subscriber

452 Comments so far

TimtimPosted on11:51 am - Dec 3, 2020


Fans can make an emotional investment in their club by buying shares when an issue becomes available, that way the money goes to the club*. Club 1872 could also offer to lend the club* money and convert them to shares at a later date, they could do so at a far lower interest rate than King's extremely lucrative 8% . Buying King's shares gives that money to King not the club* but of course only a "mug" wouldn't realise that , it also takes that money which had been collected to benefit the club* and instead it benefits King. Dave King is a convicted criminal , a proven liar , a thief and a thug . If there are any reasonable chaps out there who are happy to give their hard earned cash to him then they are mugs as well. This isn't a derogatory comment , this is fair warning for those wearing blue tinted glasses. 

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HomunculusPosted on12:18 pm - Dec 3, 2020


I see King is also looking for the magic 20p per share, the same figure which has been used for converting to equity.

So as I understand it he will be getting about £13.5m for his shares, £5m loan paid back as cash and £400k or so in interest. Let's call it a round £19m he is getting back as cash, rather than the confetti the rest of the hobbyist now have.

Not bad for getting away from a loss making business, with predicted further losses and loads of outstanding litigation.

And he manages to sell it as him doing the fans a favour.

It really is rather a good trick if he can pull it off. 

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TimtimPosted on12:32 pm - Dec 3, 2020


Homunculus 3rd December 2020 at 12:18

I think it's fair to point out that the vast majority if not all that future litigation is due to him or at the very least happened under his watch . To think the board he ousted had got the annual loss down to 3m and were on track to break even in the next accounts, had still got a NOMAD a proper stock listing and warm shoulders. What exactly King saved them from remains shrouded in mystery.

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HomunculusPosted on12:40 pm - Dec 3, 2020


Timtim 3rd December 2020 at 12:32

Always remember, propaganda doesn't actually have to be true.

Once enough people believe something it becomes their reality anyway.

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on2:52 pm - Dec 3, 2020


An excellent (and sobering) article in the Guardian today about the 1961 & 1971 deaths on Stairway 13 at Ibrox, by someone who was there at both:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/03/rangers-football-forgotten-tragedy-ibrox-stadium-disaster-glasgow

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Ex LudoPosted on4:23 pm - Dec 3, 2020


Homunculus @12.40

In terms of propaganda, then look no further than the post election United States. If something more domestic is preferred then there is always the SMSM in relation to the liquidation of Rangers (1872) 

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HighlanderPosted on5:57 pm - Dec 3, 2020


I see that St Mirren and Kilmarnock have each had 3-0 defeats imposed as a result of covid -19 protocol breaches. Notwithstanding that each set of circumstances differ, I wonder if the SPFL gave any thought whatsoever to points deductions in the cases of Bolingoli's serious brainfart and Rangers' <cough> 'mere misunderstanding' of the protocols before a friendly game a few weeks back, and to be fair, the Aberdeen eight's restaurant/pub aberration.

I guess what I'm asking is, would our football authorities dare deduct points from either of the two clubs with the largest supports, particularly during a potential 10IAR season, or are points deductions only for us diddies?

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55176197 &nbsp;

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borussiabeefburgPosted on8:09 pm - Dec 3, 2020


Highlander 3rd December 2020 at 17:57

I see that St Mirren and Kilmarnock have each had 3-0 defeats imposed as a result of covid -19 protocol breaches. Notwithstanding that each set of circumstances differ, I wonder if the SPFL gave any thought whatsoever to points deductions in the cases of Bolingoli's serious brainfart and Rangers' <cough> 'mere misunderstanding' of the protocols before a friendly game a few weeks back, and to be fair, the Aberdeen eight's restaurant/pub aberration.

I guess what I'm asking is, would our football authorities dare deduct points from either of the two clubs with the largest supports, particularly during a potential 10IAR season, or are points deductions only for us diddies?

 

Curiously, Motherwell, the major beneficiaries today from the Covid points and goals awarded which now leads to their top scorer being the SPFL itself, managed to avoid any sanctions for a club breach earlier in the season. Lucky people.

This is a screenshot from a deleted tweet:

 

https://twitter.com/_AndrewMaclean/status/1306631379183112193/photo/1

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HighlanderPosted on8:57 pm - Dec 3, 2020


borussiabeefburg 3rd December 2020 at 20:09

Valid point noted about Motherwell – but it doesn't answer the question I posed about whether the SPFL/SFA would dare to deduct points from either of the Glasgow giants, particularly in a season as potentially momentous as the current one.

Just in case I'm still not making myself clear, I strongly suspect our football authorities, who have previous for such abdication of responsibility, would go to any lengths to avoid a points deduction which could affect the destination of the league trophy, despite the patently obvious fact that ALL the rules should apply equally to ALL the clubs.   

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fishnishPosted on9:58 pm - Dec 3, 2020


Of course, Highlander… the Twin Cheeks would be somehow mysteriously absolved.  Scottish fitba is what it is.  Corrupt.

I have long been filled with loathing for the Scottish fitba set-up, but have persisted in believing that my One Town, One Team (which may soon become fan-owned) was in a far better place.   I could try to ignore its setting…

Miserably, I have focussed too narrowly on my home town team.

In my heart of hearts, I know that all professional clubs are consciously part of the poisonous cess-pit and all are prepared to keep that ball rolling.  St Mirren have not been protected by participating in the charade which is all about propping up the “big two”.

It’s really not worth caring any more.

St Mirren Officials certainly seem to have screwed up, here.  They didn’t understand and legislate against their players being abjectly human and fallible.  That they might be tempted to go to Spain to ‘visit’ a girlfriend or just go out and party together after a defeat…

EveryBuddie must now hope the current over-punishment will even out over time – natural justice – just as Saints have been awarded at least as many penalties as the 4 Sevco got at Ibrox in 1 match.  Aye, right…

Better to keep their Buddie eyes peeled and be scurrilous Lee Wallaces reporting on EVERY misdemeanour artlessly perpetrated by other clubs – and, being human, their players will also make mistakes.  Scotland’s scabloids will relish the fall-outs. The SPFL adjudicators will be able to claim overtime payments.

For the avoidance of doubt – to quote a cliche – last season I had hoped and pushed for Hearts, Stranraer, Partick Thistle to to be treated with some respect in the middle of weird novel circumstances like the pandemic and for relegation to be suspended last year. 

I was disgusted that a supposedly Big Boys club could not accommodate their own members in such strange circumstances. (Though John Obika’s winning goal that condemned Hearts unfairly WAS a cracker!)

I have wholly fallen out of love with football as practised under the aegis of SPFL and SFA.  

PS Why have none of those Scottish conga-dancers been penalised, yet?

 

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Higgy’s ShoesPosted on11:29 pm - Dec 3, 2020


Sorry for being a pedant, Fish Nish but you are mistaken. (to be fair you are not the only one).

If John Obika hadn't scored and the game had ended 0-0 then Hearts were still bottom.

 

For Hearts to have got off the bottom they would have had to have won the game.

(If Hearts had won the game, say 1-0, then st mirren would have been bottom with an identical goal difference but an inferior number of goals scored)

 

HS

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John ClarkPosted on11:52 pm - Dec 3, 2020


Highlander 3rd December 2020 at 17:57

'..are points deductions only for us diddies?'

Highlander 3rd December 2020 at 20:57

'..I strongly suspect our football authorities, who have previous for such abdication of responsibility, would go to any lengths to avoid a points deduction which could affect the destination of the league trophy, despite the patently obvious fact that ALL the rules should apply equally to ALL the clubs. '

Ex Ludo 3rd December 2020 at 16:23

'..In terms of propaganda, then look no further than the post election United States. If something more domestic is preferred then there is always the SMSM in relation to the liquidation of Rangers (1872) '

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Highlander, your posts referenced above ,and Ex Ludo's post ,neatly encapsulate the huge problem in Scottish Football occasioned by the Big Lie.

We had the SPL first properly applying its own Articles of Association and , on account of CW's Rangers suffering the insolvency event of Liquidation, calling in that club's  share in the SPL company.

Then we had the SFA first properly applying its own Articles and Rules and stripping CW's Rangers of its membership of the SFA because it was no longer a member of  League.

So far, so right, and broadly in line with the 'Rules'. ([The decision on which applicant club can be admitted into the senior professional ranks is one for league authorities, I suppose. Was any other non-League club unjustly  denied its application for membership? I don't know, but I can allow that TRFC could be admitted as a new club competing for membership.]

We had a brand new football club, newly admitted into the bottom tier of Scottish professional football.

But then the really sh.tey work began; the  manufacturing of the most absurd sporting untruth that the world of sport has ever produced! that a football club that is dead in Liquidation is simultaneously alive!

an untruth ,sadly endorsed and at least tacitly 'supported' by your club and my club and every club in Scottish professional football and damaging to us all.

And,  much more seriously damaging to  us all in the long wrong run, by the SMSM. 

Once the 'Press' is seen as lying bast-rds even in such utterly unvital matters as football ( sorry, Bill Shankly!) I think we may be in trouble.

Personally, I think the failure of Celtic (as a plc) to ask hard questions about the gifting of millions of pounds of 'European'  money by the SFA Licensing committee to an allegedly unentitled CW's Rangers was, is, a stain on the escutcheon of a club that boasts of its origins.

Whatever the reasons, Scottish Football is, at rock bottom, rotten and essentially unprincipled.

You and I both are asked by our clubs to 'support' them. 

In untruth?

 

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fishnishPosted on9:12 am - Dec 4, 2020


Higgy’s shoes :

”Sorry for being a pedant, Fish Nish but you are mistaken. (to be fair you are not the only one).

If John Obika hadn't scored and the game had ended 0-0 then Hearts were still bottom.”.

Quite right, Higgy.  I was sloppy with the phrasing.  Should have said, “Coup de grâce”.

Hearts had been self-harming all season and, at that point, merited demotion. It was a mercy…

 

However, no one knows better than a Buddie that teams CAN turn things around.  Seasons are the full measure.  Hearts had started to invest heavily in their squad.  They might well have pulled it off…

…particularly if they had a last-minute, penalty-saving expert like Vladcav Hladky!

I can and do love fitba, but…

…summary execution by the very organisation in which Hearts has been an exciting and previously valued member was the morally wrong thing to do.  Who likes participating in a competition which changes the rules halfway through?

I understand the SPFL reasoning: the Twin Cheeks wouldn’t want the pfaff of a prolonged or cluttered season when there are Euro games and overseas money-making friendlies to be played.

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paddy malarkeyPosted on1:21 pm - Dec 4, 2020


More bad news .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55171011

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wottpiPosted on2:09 pm - Dec 4, 2020


Re The recent punishments for St Mirren and Kilmarnock, I have merely scanned the ruling for Killie and read a bit of commentary re St Mirren

It seems there are two parts to case. Killie were deemed to have not operated social distancing protocols on the bus to an away game and at a pre-game meal. To put is simply, they probably need to have two buses to keep all players and staff appropriately distanced and at the hotel where the meal was served,  the tables had too many people around them.

In St Mirren's case it seems the same applied but they were also guilty of letting players car share. There seems to be questions about not imparting covid related information to players and staff in an appropriate manner.

I may be wrong but I get the impression the cash fine is for braking the covid protocols and the loss of game and the 3-0 award to opposition is based on sporting disadvantage, given the result was that due to Covid issues the offending team were unable to put out a team and thus placed unfavourable conditions on their opposition that would otherwise not have occurred.

The linking of these two cases to earlier one with Celtic & Aberdeen seems to be 'apples and pears' in that both those clubs were willing and able to play their fixtures. The SPFL seem to also be saying that the Scot Gov cancelled the games but I am not sure that is strictly the case.

However, if a team were to fall foul of a bout of food poisoning as a result of their own catering operation and could not fulfill a fixture, is it not the case that precedent for teams being unavailable due to  'illness' within the squad is that the games are rescheduled.

Clubs would not be fined for breaking hygiene protocols and no points would be awarded to the disadvantaged opposition.

I can see why the SPFL have taken the stance they have, in these most difficult of times,  but not overly convinced they have the powers or precedent to take such action. Perhaps it is a gloves off approach as opposed to being more accommodating in 'normal times'.

While not so fussed about retrospective action on Celtic and Aberdeen, I am more concerned that the same SPFL seem willing to disrupt an already jam packed league fixture list and allow a certain team to needlessly go to a winter training camp (which presumably will be abroad), when there could be a higher probability of people straying from protocols and covid controls. 

If Celtic or any other team are unable to fulfill fixtures due to 'covid mistakes'  then 3-0 it will be, no?

 

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Ex LudoPosted on2:57 pm - Dec 4, 2020


Paddymalarkey@13.21

From the BBC article it states that the 9  Dundee Utd first team players in isolation will also miss the game against the current league leaders. The league being decided the way it was last season was unsatisfactory to many. This season is rapidly becoming farcical. The soulless games were bad enough but more and more are now less and less competitive. Ghost teams playing ersatz football in empty stadia. Is it really worth the effort? 

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paddy malarkeyPosted on4:40 pm - Dec 4, 2020


Like buses .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55189245

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John ClarkPosted on12:11 am - Dec 5, 2020


Ex Ludo 4th December 2020 at 14:57

'…The soulless games were bad enough but more and more are now less and less competitive.'

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

The 'solidarity in untruth' [the Big Lie] that was created to avoid the supposed Armageddon that the death of Rangers of 1872 was imagined to bring about if Rules had been properly applied has had the not unexpected effect of rendering the sport's governance bodies utterly discredited as any kind of moral authority, able to  deal with the truth of a feckin pandemic!

Scottish Football would, if it had not lied, might have hoped to find an honestly agreed policy on how to deal with the nobody's fault 'act of God' pandemic.

Every club knows that lies are at the very heart of the governance of our sport. And they supported the lies.

One is hard put not to say 'hell mend ye all'. Like rats in a sack killing each other rather than co-operatively gnaw your way out of the sack you may all die the death.

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fishnishPosted on10:46 am - Dec 5, 2020


I do hope these players didn’t car-share or sit too closely on the bus going to this photo shoot on Nov 27!

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/1789021/dundee-united-leaked-team-photo-covid-19-rules/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
 

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fitbawfanPosted on11:24 am - Dec 5, 2020


Homunculus 3rd December 2020 at 12:18

I see King is also looking for the magic 20p per share, the same figure which has been used for converting to equity.

=====

Exactly Homunculus

If you dilute your shares fourfold from 80 million to 320 million, you can’t expect them to remain at the same price of 20p, and DK seriously can’t expect anyone to believe his ridiculous claim they’re worth 50p. I doubt even Club2012 are ‘that’ stupid.

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HomunculusPosted on12:24 pm - Dec 5, 2020


fitbawfan 5th December 2020 at 11:24

 

If you dilute your shares fourfold from 80 million to 320 million, you can’t expect them to remain at the same price of 20p, and DK seriously can’t expect anyone to believe his ridiculous claim they’re worth 50p. I doubt even Club2012 are ‘that’ stupid.

He is seriously selling his exit strategy as doing them a favour.

Club 1872 have clearly bought it and are selling it to the fans.

I don’t think King expects to get the full £13.5 million, but this will probably see him getting a few million out of it, money which won’t go to the club.

I am genuinely intrigued with regards the mindset of the other “investors” and what they think of him getting money rather than confetti. Maybe they are just glad to see the back of him. They aren’t paying for it after all, it’s just the normal fans who will scrape together what they can to give to their favourite millionaire.  Then proclaim what a saviour he was for their fledgling club.

I wonder who will pay for the statue, probably them as well. 

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paddy malarkeyPosted on1:15 pm - Dec 5, 2020


I don't think Big Dave will get out of dodge with the swag anytime soon . What he's looking for is an agreement that his shares will be bought at 20p a pop regardless of of any future financial problems at RIFC/TRFC , including admin/liquidation . The other directors seem happy enough to let somebody else pay off Dave – no way would they like to be lumbered with more confetti . If anything seismic happened , Club 1872 will be left holding the bag for Dave's pension , and I think most supporters can see this , I cannot see them recruiting 20,000 investors , especially as the cash is definitely not going anywhere near their club .

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StevieBCPosted on2:48 pm - Dec 5, 2020


Just idle speculation on my part, but 

this 'generous offer' from King has got more holes in it than a Swiss cheese. 

Sell shares to TRFC fans – at an artificially inflated price and for a company whose Annual Accounts typically come with Going Concern red flags fluttering away vigorously!  indecision

For King to even try and brass neck it – with the cheerleading support of the pseudo-financial advisor Chris Jack in The GT – suggests that he got short shrift trying to dump his shares on other Directors.

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HomunculusPosted on3:46 pm - Dec 5, 2020


StevieBC 5th December 2020 at 14:48

Oh, they don't even get the shares for their £500, they give the money to Club 1872, who then give it to King.

Club 1872 get the shares. 

I think you are right though, he is doing this because no-one else wants them, why would they.

He will get rid of at least some of them this way I think. 

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bigboab1916Posted on4:59 pm - Dec 5, 2020


Saw this on another site and found some of the comments to of interest and maybe to some on the SFM.

"

contra mundum @ celtic noise

My concerns with respect to governance and management at Celtic plc are long-standing. Specifically, the board’s and CEO’s:

  • silence regarding the illegal use of EBTs by the liquidated club;
  • acquiescence to the 5 Way Agreement;
  • tacit acceptance of the continuation myth;
  • acceptance of the outcomes of the flawed Lord Nimmo-Smith commission;
  • obfuscation, delays and lies regarding Resolution 12;
  • failure to act on the ongoing financial irregularities of the tribute act; and
  • failure to act on the institutionalised corruption of the Scottish football authorities.

It seems there is no corruption or financial crime serious enough to which the Celtic board and CEO will not turn a blind eye for their “Old Firm” friends.

Their policy of not using the term “the Old Firm” is fooling no one. It is very clear the Celtic plc business model depends on “the Old Firm” remaining alive. The craven acquiescence to (and facilitation of?) the above and more is now coming home to roost and affecting results on the park.

A blind eye was turned to the involvement in Scottish football of a convicted fraudster for how many years. At what other club would this have been accepted by the SFA and the other member clubs? The latest financial statements of RIFC cast serious doubt if that club/company is a going concern. Despite the disclosure that they have offers extant from two directors to cover forecast cash shortfalls of £23.2m “as necessary”, the financial statements further disclose explicitly there is no binding debt facility in place as at 17 November 2020, the date the financial statements and audit opinion were signed. Information should be sought on the ultimate sources of the directors’ and other loans. There is a proven track record of proceeds of crime being invested in that organisation by a convicted South African criminal.

Based on the publicly available information in the 2019-20 RIFC financial statements, in my professional opinion there is genuine reason to be sceptical about why the audit opinion did not include a qualification on the basis that the company is NOT a going concern. [Disclosure: I am a Company Auditor and Chartered Accountant with over 38 years’ experience.]

Celtic could easily commission professional advice that would reach a similar conclusion and demand further forensic investigation. So why don’t they?

Why are the Celtic board so unwilling to insist on a level playing field for all clubs?

If Celtic are unwilling to act on any of the above, they must be forced to by Celtic supporters. And as minority shareholders who hold no voting power, only financial sanctions, I believe, will be effective in doing this.

The board and CEO have done just enough and no more to stay ahead domestically, with the notable exception of the appointment of Brendan Rodgers. Even his short 33-month tenure was corrupted and disrupted by a CEO who is an unqualified, de facto Director of Football, supported by a compliant board. They have achieved very little for years to assist any progression in Europe or to move to a competition outside Scotland.

Who among us wants our club’s very existence to be dependent on a rivalry with bigots, cheats and criminals?

Governance at Celtic has failed in the last decade or so. The current board has morphed into the same cosy, group-think set-up that characterised the pre-1994 board. Any external criticism is verboten and rejected outright. Just keep buying season tickets and merchandise and shut up!

Renewal and regeneration are required to bring fresh, modern thinking and strategies to the board and management; and, most importantly, knowledge of the global football environment in the 2020s. How many of the current board know how a contemporary, professional sporting organisation with a global footprint should be positioned and run?

Good corporate governance includes succession planning and a healthy level of turnover in board and CEO positions, with recruitment of those with contemporary and complementary skill-sets relevant to the sector, not the complacency, hubris and stagnation that allows the same people to hold the same roles for decades.

For the vast majority of us, Celtic is an emotional investment. We want our club to be able to compete on a level playing field. We play by the rules, so we should insist others are forced to do the same and are held fully accountable when they do not.

We need these messages to be conveyed strongly and clearly to the board and CEO; and if they continue to refuse to act, they need to face financial sanctions.

Potential financial sanctions:

  • Mass requests for refunds of season tickets for games not played in the 2019-20 season
  • Mass cancellations of direct debits for 2020-21 season tickets
  • A boycott of Celtic stores
  • Lobbying of corporate sponsors to withdraw in lieu of a boycott of their products

All of these measures will be seen as controversial by some and will be financially harmful to Celtic in the short-term, of that there can be no doubt; but for far too long these issues have been ignored by the current board and CEO.

Regrettably, if they will not listen to the people who are Celtic football club, in my opinion we need to communicate with them in the only language they understand – a financial one."

View Comment

TimtimPosted on7:31 pm - Dec 5, 2020


King bought his shares for 18/20p in 2015 after he successfully drove down the price by encouraging boycotts and discontent via his media poodles , he then converted loans to shares at 20p so his costs are less than 20p per share . He states he only wants back what he has put in , however nobody is asking what he took out. Driving the share price down for his benefit , he took out the NOMAD, he took the club* off the stock market , he cost the club millions in litigation  and possibly 10s of millions in damages (to SDI,Elite,Hummel,Memorial walls etc) he cost 7 figure sums in interest repayments from loan sharks ( including himself) an expense account for 1st class travel and hotel bills whenever he wanted to go and watch his favourite club* Liverpool . The damage caused by his takeover which breached the guidelines and led to his cold shoulder pariah status which ultimately led to difficulties securing banking facilities and raising capital from investors . You don't need a calculator to see he has taken out and or cost the club* far more than he has put in , and what he has put in he wants back with profit. If Club 1872 sign an agreement then that board and all its members may be liable for the full amount even if the club* go under. Nothing personal of course it's just business. 

A reminder of Judge Southwoods words

"A mendacious witness whose evidence should not be accepted on any issue unless it is supported by documents and other objective evidence. It was remarkable that King showed no sign of embarrassment or any emotion when he conceded that he had lied to the (SARS) commissioner in a number of his income tax returns. In our assessment, he is a glib and shameless liar."

The takeover panel also found him to be glib and shameless

In hearings with the panel, Mr King initially denied having acted with individuals including George Letham, another Rangers shareholder, to gain a controlling share in the club.That was “later shown to be untrue” following the discovery of emails between the two men, which Mr King had told the panel were deleted and could not be recovered.The panel found that “Mr King’s behaviour shows a clear propensity to disregard the [takeover] code and comply with its rules only when forced to do so by enforcement proceedings in the court”

View Comment

Cluster OnePosted on10:08 pm - Dec 5, 2020


Homunculus 5th December 2020 at 15:46
I think you are right though, he is doing this because no-one else wants them, why would they.
…………………
It may also have been his turn to do a Malcolm Murray.They need millions to see out the season, best case sell some players in Jan. If that does not happen someone has to come up with another loan, king has taken himself out the equation. Now the other shareholders will get an extra turn in the game of pass the parcel, and all the time looking at king walking away with his pockets jingling and a jangling

View Comment

macfurglyPosted on10:53 pm - Dec 5, 2020


bigboab1916 5th December 2020 at 16:59

Saw this on another site and found some of the comments to of interest and maybe to some on the SFM."

 

——————–

That's the most coherent and persuasive expression of the current discontent, or some of it, that I've seen.  Unfortunately time is too tight for the proposed financial sanctions to make any difference this season, (if they ever will, which I doubt). 

Fences have now been erected to keep the fans at bay tomorrow. Celtic supporters exercising their democratic right to engage in peaceful protest is likely to be a shorter road to the same end. Taking on your own supporters, or customers if you will, is not a good long term strategy.

View Comment

HomunculusPosted on11:16 pm - Dec 5, 2020


Cluster One 5th December 2020 at 22:08

Do you think they will sell the top players (no point selling without bringing in a decent fee) when they are so close to winning their first ever league title, or indeed major trophy, and stopping Celtic winning ten league titles in a row.

I think the money will have to come from even more loans. 

View Comment

reasonablechapPosted on8:23 am - Dec 6, 2020


Cluster One 3rd December 2020 at 00:16

 
When was the last time they made a profit on a player?
……………..
Looking at the accounts, and the money needed to see out the season and the money needed for next season before a ball is even kicked. looking at an unseeded club trying to reach the CL group stages, looking at player sales that made a profit?
Again obviously no guarantee.

Touching on DK medium to long term strategy from 2015.
AD Hoc he called it, and it still looks the same today with even more loses.

=======%%%=======

Fair questions and points.

The management of contracts and player trading has, over the years, been very poor and was a obvious area that needed addressed within any medium to long term strategy. 

To that end we brought in Ross Wilson and a modern progressive coaching team in an attempt to add value. The football operation as a whole is now functioning well and it’s reasonable to be confident that player sales will generate net revenue in 2021.

Based on 3 years of European results, I’d say we have a reasonable expectation to make the European group stages for next season, whether that be CL or EL. Celtic are making a now habitual dogs dinner of managing the combination of CL qualifiers and player trading. It’ll be interesting to see if Rangers new more professional approach does better.

You are right, there are no guarantees in football (especially during a pandemic) but as for how it pans out, we’ll know more come next September.

 

Just a quick word on Covid related government restrictions.

On one hand, Scottish fitbaw seems to be lobbying hard for a better deal….but with the other are  doing their level best to punch itself in the face.

Is Scottish fitbaw confident that for political reasons, the government won’t act on previous threats of action or are they just leaderless and omnishambolic, or a bit of both ?….. Speaking of which, Peter (other than his bank balance) isn’t having a good time of it on various levels and I doubt he’ll be around Scottish fitbaw this time next year (no matter who wins the title).

2021 seems to shaping up  as a year for significant events and change on many levels and Covid19 makes nearly everything more difficult to call.

Whisper it, sounds almost crazy, but Scotland have two home group games and a real chance to make the KO stages of a major finals for the first ever time.

 

View Comment

reasonablechapPosted on8:37 am - Dec 6, 2020


One specific regards Peter, his friends at the SPFL, fixture changes and Covid.

Bang in the middle of  a global pandemic, why would the SPFL consider the reason of an overseas training camp valid, to move a fixture that the other team (Hibs) don't agree to ?

View Comment

TimtimPosted on12:13 pm - Dec 6, 2020


Homunculus 5th December 2020 at 23:16

"I think the money will have to come from even more loans."

And those loans will be converted to equity at a later date further diluting the shares just bought by club 1872 for 13m (If they do buy them) . If Club 1872 were given a choice to support the club* ( or even the operating company that runs the club*) or to support Dave Kings pension fund  then they should support the former. The question remains why the Board didn't go to them before Close Leasing or Laird . It looks like the Board don't want Club 1872 to have a large slice of the pie . One question that remains unanswered is did King jump or was he pushed ? Did he see the writing on the wall or did the other Directors finally have enough of this dangerous liability ? Removing himself from the board takes away any personal liability he may have faced , but there is no need to offload his shares at (according to him) a 60% discount in a goodwill gesture. I'm just surprised he's not hanging around to unveil his own statue. As Oscar might say " to lose one club may be regarded as a misfortune , to lose both looks like carelessness". I wonder if he'll vote against a CVA this time? 

 

View Comment

HomunculusPosted on12:43 pm - Dec 6, 2020


Timtim 6th December 2020 at 12:13

If Dave King can walk away from this with the best part of £19m, or anywhere near it, and still be thought of by many Rangers supporters as a hero then it will be the best con even he has ever pulled off. 

Re a CVA, he lobbied against it for the former club, in fact he even suggested to the support that they should not buy season tickets.

Clearly liquidation suited his purposes. 

"I am opposing the CVA and urge all loyal fans to do the same,"

"I also believe that all true Rangers fans should not buy any season tickets …"

The Rangers support see what Dave King does in every other aspect of his business life, they see what the South African authorities say about him, what the takeover panel say about him, what the UK Courts say about him, what other businesses who sue him and their club think of him. They choose to ignore all of it. 

View Comment

TimtimPosted on1:53 pm - Dec 6, 2020


@Homunculus

The illusion is the delusion  that comes from collusion . When it comes to propaganda nobody is more refined at it than the Brits, and nobody is more gullible than the British public . Dress it up in the Union flag bestow a sprinkling of Royal patronage add some pomposity and remind everyone we stood alone and defeated Hitler and there will be a mass outbreak of forelock tugging from Wick to Plymouth. The reality is a corrupt banana republic operating the largest money laundering operation out of the City of London via its offshore tax havens ignored by a Parliament (the Mother of Democracy) which has just voted to break International law and excused its troops and operatives from prosecution for war crimes . Those who stand up and expose the truth will end up sharing a cell with Julian Assange or a sports desk at the Dundee Courier with Jim Spence.
Crooks like Sir Philip Green , Robert Maxwell or Sir David Murray can empty the pension pots and pilfer bank accounts and never be held to account. Is it any wonder that the “Establishment Club” can operate with such impunity , that a blind eye is turned to the running up of debt or that a convicted criminal was ushered up the marble staircase strewn with rose petals. Is it any wonder that Ibrox is a microcosm of the British Empire that it toasts annually from its loving cup. The truth is too painful and too shameful to deal with , better it live with the myths of World’s most successful  same club* just the holding company Craig Whytes fault anyhows.
If Priti Patel who was sacked less than a year ago for having secret meetings with a foreign Govt (essentially treason) can then return as the Home Secy (in charge of law and order) then there is every chance that King stepped down at Ibrox in order to become the unopposed  parliamentary candidate for Dunny on the Wold 

View Comment

reasonablechapPosted on5:29 pm - Dec 6, 2020


I wonder if Peter will be aggressively lobbying the government to ease attendance restrictions for the upcoming Celtic AGM ?

 

 

View Comment

StevieBCPosted on8:33 pm - Dec 6, 2020


I think Peter and his Board of diddies should enquire about hiring the infamous Ibrox AGM 'Gazebo on the pitch'. 

Just to be on the safe side.

…and in the season of goodwill, the cash would be welcomed at Ibrox…   

View Comment

paddy malarkeyPosted on8:35 pm - Dec 6, 2020


Not for the faint of heart ,

Video: Celtic fans attack the team bus as it leaves Celtic Park (msn.com)

View Comment

John ClarkPosted on11:44 pm - Dec 6, 2020


Timtim 6th December 2020 at 13:53

'. The truth is too painful and too shameful to deal with , better it live with the myths of World’s most successful  same club* ..'

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""

In that general vein, Timtim, I will post off  tomorrow this letter:

" Mr Dean Beale,

Inspector General and Chief Executive,

The Insolvency Service,

PO Box 3690,

Birmingham B2 4UY

Dear Mr Beale,

From the website (updated January 2020) of the Insolvency Service I take the following sentence:
“ We also have the power to conduct confidential investigations into limited companies and limited liability partnerships where we have received information that suggests serious corporate abuse”

On foot of that, I would like to invite you to investigate the circumstances relating to what I view as the clearly misleading implication in the Initial Public Offer( IPO) document issued by Rangers International Football Club plc ( RIFC plc)(company number SC437060) in December 2012.

That implication was that the football club of which RIFC plc is the holding company, and on the fortunes of which prospective shareholders would depend for returns on their investment in RIFC plc, was the Rangers Football Club plc, founded in 1872 ,and incorporated as The Rangers Football Club Limited in 1899 (company number SC004276) which, before it entered Liquidation ,claimed with some justification to be the most successful football club in history, in respect of sporting achievements over 140 years.

In point of absolute fact, the Rangers Football Club plc of 1872 foundation (company number SC 004276) entered Administration on 14 February 2012.

The appointed Administrators signally failed to find a buyer or to achieve a Company Voluntary Agreement (CVA) to allow the club to return to solvency.

In consequence, the club entered Liquidation on 31 October 2012,[ where it still languishes under the new name (RFC 2012 plc) given to it on 31 July 2012 with the intention, I believe, of hiding the fact that it was Rangers of 1872 that was being Liquidated]

Shortly prior to 31 July 2012, a consortium had set up a completely new company, incorporated as SevcoScotland Ltd , company number SC 425159.

It was to this company that the (in my opinion, not vey able) Administrators had sold many (but, obviously not all!) of the assets of the distressed club in June 2012 . (Among the assets that could not be sold were a number of football players whose contracts with the club were rendered null and void by the Liquidation and who were therefore free to quit the club and seek employment elsewhere)

Under the Articles of Association of the then Scottish Premier League (SPL) and the Articles of Association and Rules of the Scottish Football Association (SFA), Rangers Football Club plc (company number SC004276) had its share in the SPL withdrawn, and ceased in consequence to be a member of a football league, and therefore lost its membership of the SFA..

It thus lost its very existence as a football club entitled to participate in Scottish professional football.

There was no question of the distressed club having merely changed ownership, as many football clubs do.

No, the club went into Liquidation and was not bought outright by a new owner.

[Sadly, the wishes and fond remembrances of football fans cannot change the harsh reality of the death of a football club any more than the wishes and remembrances of family can resurrect a deceased loved one]

The new company, SevcoScotland Ltd , desirous of becoming a football club and of taking the place of RFC plc of 1872, and having on 31 July 2012 renamed itself (with, in my opinion, deceitful intent) as The Rangers Football Club Ltd, applied for a share in the SPL. Their application was rejected virtually out-of-hand.

Their subsequent applications for membership of the First and Second divisions of the SFA were equally firmly rejected.

Finally, however, their application to be allowed to join the third Division was (not without controversy) accepted, and, in consequence, they were admitted as a new football club into the SFA.

If one looks now at the IPO Prospectus I believe that one can clearly see that it misleadingly implies (and possibly can be read to assert ) that the club of which RIFC plc is the holding company is the historic Rangers FC of 1872 foundation, and not the brand new football club created in 2012!

I think that that needs looking at.

And, of course, one has to question the legitimacy of the use of the name 'The Rangers Football Club Ltd' as being the deliberate use of a historic, famous and once respected name in order to disguise the fact that the football club presently using that name is not that historic club, but a new creation, and that the Rangers of 1872 is, as a matter of cast iron fact, awaiting dissolution as and when the Liquidators conclude their business.

 

Yours sincerely,

and , of course, with compliments of the season,

[me]

 

View Comment

TimtimPosted on12:51 am - Dec 7, 2020


@JC

Precise and to the point 

I noticed you left out the part where the original club* run by a knight of the realm operated an unlawful tax scam in order to spend that money on players they clearly couldn't afford then sold the business to a discredited businessman who had been barred from operating as a Director for 7 years who then failed to pay tax and NI spending that money on players they clearly couldn't afford before that business went into administration and liquidation or the last Chairman of the tribute club* was convicted of 41 counts of tax evasion and was then cold shouldered by the City for a period of 4 years for his behaviour during a hostile takeover  and the current Board have once again ran up significant tax arrears while spending that same money on players they clearly cannot  afford as shown in every set of accounts since they were formed just 8 years ago. 

View Comment

Big PinkPosted on10:17 am - Dec 7, 2020


Been really busy of late folks, so progress on the new platform has been slow. Plan right now is to relaunch shortly after the new Year (possibly earlier if the festive period allows me to do more than usual).

No doubt there will be feature requests. I hope to have some folk beta testing either this weekend or next so we can anticipate problems moving forward.

If anyone is interested in being part of that – or indeed if anyone is interested in doing some behind the scenes techy-type work, please email me.

I'm away back to ignoring the media for another week 🙂

View Comment

Cluster OnePosted on12:44 pm - Dec 7, 2020


reasonablechap 6th December 2020 at 08:23
Fair questions and points.
…………..
· ROSS WILSON joined the ibrox club as their new Director of Football on 13/10/2019 and valued the squad as £100 king now believes it is worth £200 mill.

it’s reasonable to be confident that player sales will generate net revenue in 2021. Or another word Hope, it’s reasonable to be confident that already 2 transfer windows have passed with not much player sale profit.
………….
Based on 3 years of European results, I’d say we have a reasonable expectation to make the European group stages for next season,

Or another word Hope.
………………..
And as you say Covid19 makes nearly everything more difficult to call.
Hope of player sales and profit and a run in the champions league group stages was the hope that killed the last ibrox club, Let us just hope this ibrox club are not going down the same route when on top of everything Covid19 makes nearly everything more difficult to call.
…..
we’ll know more come next September.That is a long way to kick the can.

View Comment

normanbatesmumfcPosted on1:31 pm - Dec 7, 2020


JC,

Perhaps an extension to your paragraph;

"The new company, SevcoScotland Ltd , desirous of becoming a football club and of taking the place of RFC plc of 1872, and having on 31 July 2012 renamed itself (with, in my opinion, deceitful intent) as The Rangers Football Club Ltd, applied for a share in the SPL. Their application was rejected virtually out-of-hand." With ten clubs voting against the application one club abstaining and only one of the 12 clubs, RFC plc of 1872 (in Administration) voting for the application. A brand new club applying to join and another different club voting to let them, highlights quite clearly the two clubs existed at the same time and cannot possibly be the same!

View Comment

paddy malarkeyPosted on6:36 pm - Dec 7, 2020


In case there is an interest . (from BBC Sport ).

Group F: Denmark, Austria, Scotland, Israel, Faroe Islands, Moldova

How does qualifying work?

Thirty-two teams will take part in the World Cup in Qatar, of which 13 will be from Europe.

The 10 group winners in qualifying will secure their place at the tournament while the 10 group runners-up will go through to the play-offs, along with the two best Nations League group winners who do not finish in the top two of their World Cup qualifying group.

The 12 play-off teams will be drawn into three separate play-off paths, each of which will comprise semi-finals and final, with the three winners heading to Qatar.

When are the World Cup qualifying group matches?

March 2021: Matchday 1-3

September 2021: Matchday 4-6

October 2021: Matchday 7-8

November 2021: Matchday 9-10

March 2022: Playoffs

View Comment

bordersdonPosted on8:23 pm - Dec 7, 2020


paddy malarkey 7th December 2020 at 18:36

In case there is an interest . (from BBC Sport ).

—————————v——————-

Of great interest PM. Probably the best draw we could have got? Looking forward to yet another campaign! No much chance of travel though in the immediate future?

View Comment

paddy malarkeyPosted on8:41 pm - Dec 7, 2020


bordersdon 7th December 2020 at 20:23

A very good draw for us , imo . Better than what Wales and Norn Irn got , but not quite the luck of Engerland . And we should all be vaccinated by the second set of fixtures .

View Comment

MenacePosted on9:57 pm - Dec 7, 2020


Reference the penalties for St Mirren and Kilmarnock for COVID infringements

I agree that they should be penalised, not sure about a points deduction though . However why should the opposing team gain 3 points ? Surely that is also penalising all the other teams in the league, as they still have to play all their games. A points deduction should have been applied and games should still be played

 

View Comment

John ClarkPosted on10:04 pm - Dec 7, 2020


Timtim 7th December 2020 at 00:51

normanbatesmumfc 7th December 2020 at 13:31

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Thank you, gentlemen both, for your valid observations: I had already posted the letter before I saw your posts, or I would have tried to incorporate the gist of them .

I would say, though, that the Insolvency Service's powers seem to  be quite limited in scope. Like the FCA, the laws they operate under are largely framed by parliamentarians many of whom are 'businessmen' and/or chummy with the 'corporate world' and are not too keen on making it easy to nail them.

I still can't get over the too-readiness (in my opinion)  of the FCA and the Courts to let King two-finger them!

I may be entirely too gloomily cynical but I tend to think that the Insolvency Service ['IS']would behave the same as the FCA, and find reasons to let people off the hook rather than prosecute!

Still, there will a record of my letter on the IS files, and perhaps (who knows?) the fiendish cleverness of the timing of the re-naming of clubs, and the ambiguous use of initials to obfuscate and mislead ,might be considered as a teaching point for their 'inspectors' and raise questions about the abilities of Nomads ,and of the people in the FCA who let that Prospectus be issued!broken heart

 

View Comment

TimtimPosted on11:07 pm - Dec 7, 2020


@JC

I can only applaud your tenacity to hold these charlatans to account but I fear the game is rigged and these organisations that are meant to oversee fair play are really set up to deflect issues instead of solving them. However that doesn't mean we should give them a free pass to pi** on us and tell us it's raining . Of course (lest we forget) the SFA themselves didn't recognise them as the same club* when they included them in the 2nd round draw of the Scottish Cup against Forres Mechanics instead of the 4th round entry point they would have been entitled to for finishing the previous season as runners up in the SPL. I do however look foeward to any reply that may be forthcoming.

In other news our old friend Dave has been explaining to his pet hack at the ET how everyone in the boardroom is the bestest of friends. 

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18927220.dave-king-opens-fall-out-rumours-relationship-ibrox-board-rangers-share-sale-club-1872/?ref=twtrec

View Comment

John ClarkPosted on12:27 am - Dec 8, 2020


Timtim 7th December 2020 at 23:07

'..the SFA themselves didn't recognise them as the same club* when they included them in the 2nd round draw of the Scottish Cup against Forres Mechanics instead of the 4th round entry point they would have been entitled to for finishing the previous season as runners up in the SPL.'

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Aye, Timtim, it's the wee detail (a fact well known to the CID!) that exposes the untruth of a suspect's statement. 

There has never in the course of human history been a liar so skilled as not to have been sooner or later detected in a lie, because, psychologically, the liar himself knows that he is lying!

And that is a great handicap.broken heart

 

View Comment

brian_d84Posted on7:36 am - Dec 8, 2020


John Clark 6th December 2020 at 23:44

I follow an account on twitter that keeps track of Donald Trump's legal efforts to overturn the widely accepted reality of his defeat in the Presidential Election. I believe the current tally is 49 failures to one success.

I'm not sure if anyone has been keeping track of your own efforts to overturn the consensus (rival fans excluded) that Rangers FC is not a new club, but I suspect they make Trump's track record look impressively successful.

Does your constant failure, the relentless rejection of your point of view by the copiously varied sources to which you have applied over the last 10 years, not make you take the hint? 

Nobody outside of social media echo chambers takes the new club thing seriously. Your personal failed efforts to prove otherwise, and those of others, are a laughing stock.

When your own allies in Auldheid and the Res 12 crowd step outside the echo chamber into the reality of legal representation – the costly reality – they don't touch the "new club" argument with a barge pole. I've seen the reams of text dedicated to the 2011 Licence issue. Barely a sentence, if that, of legal argument as to why the same club status of Rangers should be overturned.

Why is that? Would Auldheid and the Res 12 group not give their right arm to have it confirmed that Rangers FC are a new club? Let alone barely touch on it in the course of spending 10s of thousands of their hard earned £££ in securing legal representation?

They don't touch it because it's a childish fantasy, at home on social media where nonsense can be spoken free of charge and obsessed people can waste their time making fools of themselves, without having to pay for the privilege.

If I am incorrect, and the £10000s of legal representation secured by Auldheid etc did include attempts to over turn Rangers' status as the same club, you will of course oblige and point out the relevant sections.

View Comment

wottpiPosted on7:53 am - Dec 8, 2020


bordersdon 7th December 2020 at 20:23

paddy malarkey 7th December 2020 at 18:36

Would hope by the September rounds there may be a chance to get to games if the vaccine roll out goes well. However in terms of away games can't see any great attraction other than Austria, don't really fancy the rest. Would consider Denmark if I can get a bank loan for a pint!!

View Comment

paraniodbyexperiencePosted on10:37 am - Dec 8, 2020


“Old Firm ” Collusion?

Trade mark number
UK00002264673

List of events
Date
20 September 2020
Type
Sending of email/paper renewal reminder
Text
The E-mail Renewal Reminder has been sent at 20/09/2020
Date
22 November 2018
Type
Recordal registration. Recordal type: Change owner details
Text
Change of owner details has been recorded due to recordal RC000116100 received on date 30/10/2018; owner(s) Celtic F.C.Limited (id: 218706),Sevco Scotland Limited (id: 613831) has been updated to owner(s): Celtic F.C.Limited (id: 218706),The Rangers Football Club Limited (id: 613862)
Date
22 November 2018
Type
Recordal registration. Recordal type: Full assignment
Text
Full Assignment RC000115952 received on date 30/10/2018 has been recorded, resulting to the change of ownership from Celtic F.C.Limited (id: 218706, country: GB),The Rangers Football Club plc (id: 613657, country: GB) to Celtic F.C.Limited (id: 218706, country: GB),Sevco Scotland Limited (id: 613831, country: GB). The effective date of assignment is 14/06/2012.
Date
21 November 2018
Type
Edit owner
Text
Name and address details were amended.
Date
30 March 2013
Type
Edit representative
Text
Name and address details were amended.
Date
30 March 2013
Type
Edit representative
Text
Name and address details were amended.
Print trade mark history | Glossary of terms
 

View Comment

HighlanderPosted on10:46 am - Dec 8, 2020


brian_d84 8th December 2020 at 07:36

One of your own points can be turned back on your/itself.

If the current iteration of Rangers is the same club, that club must have lost many multi-millions of pounds when it was supposedly ‘illegally relegated’, then spent several seasons in the lower divisions, with much reduced income and no European football. Why then did it not take legal action to recover those millions? Even with the world’s most litigious man on board, pun intended (Dave King), Rangers* studiously avoided having the matter of the new entity’s status subjected to legal scrutiny, knowing that more than one judge had already laughed out of court the notion of an immortal, ethereal club. Charles Green had previously taken the legal route over a piffling little signing embargo, without punishment, so there was no reason to avoid court action, particularly since the value of perceived losses were exponentially higher.

Point 2 – if you were genuinely unconcerned by John Clark’s ongoing commendable battle, you wouldn’t feel compelled to visit this site to belie that lack of concern. 

View Comment

John ClarkPosted on11:12 am - Dec 8, 2020


brian_d84 8th December 2020 at 07:36

'..Does your constant failure, the relentless rejection of your point of view by the copiously varied sources to which you have applied over the last 10 years, not make you take the hint? '

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Have  I touched an exposed nerve?

Failure to get what? Liars to acknowledge that they are lying?

The entity that was the football club that was founded in 1872 was the entity that entered Liquidation in 2012 and ceased to exist as a football club precisely as many venerable football clubs have done .That is the incontrovertible fact. 

The transfer of the emotional baggage of fans to a newly created club cannot make that new club the old club.

I note, incidentally, that the person who incorporated 'River House Capital Ltd' (company number 456869) on 15 August 2013 which

changed its name and status to ' River House Capital Community Interest Company' on 4 October 2013

and then to 'Club 1872 Projects Community Interest Company' on 30 June 2016,

did so as a representative of The Rangers Supporter's Society Ltd. (which is the sole shareholder of Club 1872 CIC)

was one of the founder members of the Scottish Football Supporters Association.(SFSA)

That perhaps explains in part the reluctance of the SFSA to tackle the deceit involved at the heart of football governance as a necessary preliminary to tackling honestly and openly the manifold problems that beset the sport and about which there is legitimate room to have differing 'opinions ' and seek consensus on possible solutions.

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bect67Posted on11:42 am - Dec 8, 2020


brian

I have altered some of your comments about social media a tad to read …

"…where nonsense can be spoken (written surely) free of charge and obsessed people (i.e. liquidation deniers like me) waste their time making fools of themselves, without having to pay for the privilege"

I think that is more meaningful to most of the posters on here, reduces the idiocy of your comments, gives you more credibility, and indicates a self awareness sadly lacking in SEVCO 'camp followers' – which include the agenda driven SMSM.

If, as seems likely, the 8 year old club wins their first major domestic trophy, it will be heralded as number 55 – another shocking indictment on how the truth can be suppressed.

Finally, John, of all people, will never give up on his mission to expose the 'big lie', so you're wasting your time attacking him.

 

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bordersdonPosted on12:19 pm - Dec 8, 2020


wottpi 8th December 2020 at 07:53

———————v——————-

Both Austria and Denmark would be expensive guys but a night or so in either would be worth it laugh

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Cluster OnePosted on3:28 pm - Dec 8, 2020


brian_d84 8th December 2020 at 07:36
Nobody outside of social media echo chambers takes the new club thing seriously.
……………
That is a narrative i have stumbled on a bit of recently.
Social media is one of the most popular online activities that users engage in around the world. There are 3.5 Billion social media users worldwide.So enough social media echo chambers to go around. 45% of the population. If John and others can capture just 1% or less, good for them.
A small percentage of folk inside the social media echo chamber take the new club thing seriously otherwise they would not protest so much.

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tonyPosted on5:38 pm - Dec 8, 2020


brian_d84

in the year of liquidation the old club came second in the league,why did they not play in europe,why did rfc limited have a vote to vote sevco into the spl,why did a lot of their players walk away mid contract,you can say no one cares,trust me,we do,if you want to think in your head it's the same club,fair play crack on,the rest of us have a brain,oh any chance you still have your show liquidation the red card piece of cardboard in the house,asking for a friend

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bigboab1916Posted on7:39 pm - Dec 8, 2020


The life of Brian

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/18964226

 

Rangers: Kelty anger after testimonial is called off

Last updated on

23 July 201223 July 2012.From the section Football

Kelty Hearts have criticised the Scottish FA after the Fife juniors were forced to postpone a pre-season friendly against the new Rangers.

The Ibrox outfit were unable to play because the SFA has yet to approve the club’s membership.

“So a thanks must go to the SFA for having a negative impact on not only the top end of Scottish football but the lower end also,” said Kelty.

The testimonial game for an experienced Kely midfielder will be re-arranged.

We are all gutted with all the work done sending tickets out etc

Kelty Hearts

Ally McCoist’s side have only played games behind closed doors at their Murray Park training ground as they are not licensed to play official fixtures.

They are due to play their first game of the season, against Brechin City in the Ramsdens Cup, on Saturday”

 

We feel your hurt but it is what it is.

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Cluster OnePosted on8:22 pm - Dec 8, 2020


tony 8th December 2020 at 17:38
oh any chance you still have your show liquidation the red card piece of cardboard in the house,asking for a friend
……………
The Red card against Liquidation has always intrigued me.
On the one hand, as you suggest, did any fans keep that red card as a bit of a memento thinking this could be a piece of history to show i was there to save the club from liquidation. A kind of token to show off to the grankids, Look what your grandad has a piece of red card from the day in the clubs history were we had a demonstration and saved the club from liquidation, i could never sell it you see as it is priceless a great part of the tradition of the fans making a stand to save the club.
Or on the other hand.. Grandad did you hold up a piece of red card to save the club from liquidation?
Never happened kid, all those pictures are fake, photoshopped, social media for you. Now go away and play.

Who knows, if the red card display did really help the club against liquidation. wonder just how much that little piece of history would be worth today?
May even have found a place for it in the museum the ibrox club are planning on building.

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John ClarkPosted on8:35 pm - Dec 8, 2020


bigboab1916 8th December 2020 at 19:39

‘…’..as they are not licensed to play official fixtures’

“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

Ha, ha, nice one, bigboab. broken heart

That must have been the last honest bit of Football Governance there has been in the ‘saga’. 

And then they had to resort to lying, to their perpetual ignominy and shame as individual persons and collectively as  ‘Football Governance’

There can be no ‘moving on’ until Governance makes a statement that TRFC is not Rangers of 1872 and may not claim any of the titles and honours of that club. 

 

 

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StevieBCPosted on9:26 pm - Dec 8, 2020


Cluster One 8th December 2020 at 20:22

Who knows, if the red card display did really help the club against liquidation. wonder just how much that little piece of history would be worth today?

May even have found a place for it in the museum the ibrox club are planning on building.

============================

Apparently the Ibrox museum will have a novel dating convention applied to artefacts on display;

B.C.  Before Craig

A.D.  After Demotion (*cough*)

indecision

And for balance: the planned CFC museum should soon take delivery of an historical artefact to put on display…

Peter Lawwell.  no

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John ClarkPosted on10:19 pm - Dec 8, 2020


StevieBC 8th December 2020 at 21:26

'…delivery of an historical artefact to put on display…Peter Lawwell.'

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…in a place of honour as "The man who might have shopped us, but didn't!"

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reasonablechapPosted on6:37 am - Dec 9, 2020


Cluster One 8th December 2020 at 15:28

That is a narrative i have stumbled on a bit of recently.
Social media is one of the most popular online activities that users engage in around the world. There are 3.5 Billion social media users worldwide.So enough social media echo chambers to go around. 45% of the population. If John and others can capture just 1% or less, good for them.
A small percentage of folk inside the social media echo chamber take the new club thing seriously otherwise they would not protest so much.

=======%%%=======

 

I read your post and the term clutching at slippery straws comes to mind. In fact it actually reminds me of when Charles Green came out with the 500 million fanbase claim.

I’d ask Brian84 to leave John and his indefatigable ability to connect any god given subject into a midnight missive on the Rangers, well alone. We need some humour in these generally dark times.

 

Reasonable WC draw for Scotland but we need to keep improving if we want to finish above Denmark and/or Austria because at the moment, we seem to be on a par with Israel. The age profile of the squad is right but we lack some quality (depth) up front to hurt sides like Denmark (2 recent clean sheets against England). …Given we now play a 3-5-2,…what about James Tavernier (via residency criteria*) ? He is currently the most effective player in the SPFL.

*If that is indeed the case

 

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John ClarkPosted on9:15 am - Dec 9, 2020


Who has described  “The Scotsman” newspaper” as 

“This historic bastion of journalistic integrity ..” before going on to say ” [we are] proud of the breadth and quality of our coverage of sport ”

Let me tell you: none other than Euan McGrory , editor of that very journal.

Proud that his football reporters subscribe to and support and propagate the biggest piece of deceitful hooey and absolute b.lls that Scottish football governance foisted on the supporters of the sport of football, in their denial of a plain, objective commercial and sporting fact, namely that the football club known as Glasgow Rangers of 1872 foundation is in Liquidation , and that The Rangers FC founded in 2012 is not, and could not possibly be, the Rangers of 1872.

The man’s got a blo.dy insulting cheek to solicit our financial help to keep his paper in existence.

[Full page advert in today’s issue of ‘The Scotsman’, headed ” We have been by your side, bringing news that you trust-since 1817″ ]

 

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Cluster OnePosted on10:59 am - Dec 9, 2020


reasonablechap 9th December 2020 at 06:37
I read your post and the term clutching at slippery straws comes to mind.

In what way?
………………
Charles Green came out with the 500 million fanbase claim.

Some ibrox fans believed that claim and some still do.

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bigboab1916Posted on5:18 pm - Dec 9, 2020


Suppose the only people who understand Liquidation and its impact would be legal minds, if only there were some to explain to us what it means. Oh wait a minute.
And i suppose the media who understand the concept of liquidation as well.
 

cannot pass on that which is undefinable, this is a new Rangers,” Donald Findlay QC .

Alan Dewar QC,

The Rangers football club does not exist, it is an idea in people’s minds, a myth of continuity. No-one knows what the Rangers football club is, but it has no legal personality.”

Mr Dewar adds that ” you can only be the chairman of an entity that has a legal personality. Sevco Scotland, and it alone, bought the assets and carried on the business. The concept of the Rangers Institution continuing exists only in the minds of die hard supporters.”

https://angelahaggerty.com/why-the-word-sevco-matters/

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paddy malarkeyPosted on3:19 pm - Dec 10, 2020


A wee bit of help at last .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/55254701

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Cluster OnePosted on6:19 pm - Dec 10, 2020


https://www.bdo.co.uk/getmedia/855077e6-42e9-4126-adfb-39ea4c869cb2/RFC-2012-PLC-Progress-Report-to-30-10-2020.pdf.aspx
……………….
The joint Liquidators had sought detailed explanations regarding certain aspects of the strategy implemented by the joint Administrators during the Administration. A substantive response to our requests was not recieved and we continue to liaise closely with the committee in considering the further actions in relation to these investigations.
This matter has now been progressed and formal legal action has commenced. The former joint Administrators have defended the action to date and should matters progress to an evidential hearing in the court of session this will commence on 4 May 2021.
Another court date.

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John ClarkPosted on10:49 pm - Dec 10, 2020


Cluster One 10th December 2020 at 18:19

‘..Another court date.’

“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

And there was I, yesterday, annoyed at having missed a continuation hearing of David Grier’s damages action v both the Lord Advocate and the polis!( I hadn’t been checking the court Rolls as diligently a before)

But I also had forgotten to check up for the Liquidators’ report to creditors!

Well done you!

Maybe by May 2021 the Courts might be back to normal, and I will enjoy physically attending any ‘evidential hearing.’

That would be in the world of ‘civil’ not ‘criminal’ law.

And I am quite interested. Given that the criminal charges against the Administrators were dropped, to their enormous personal financial advantage, of course[but what’s a few million quid compared to the worth of your good name!!] it remains to be seen whether the creditors of the Liquidated football club will manage to nail the Administrators for incompetence, lack of proper care and concern in seeking a buyer, a perhaps too readiness to  choose a buyer to whom to sell some of the assets  whose offer to buy at £was not perhaps made to other would-be buyers of assets!

Lots of fun and knowledge of the law as she is practised still to be had!

You’ve cheered me up!

 

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gunnerbPosted on10:56 pm - Dec 10, 2020


 

Cluster One 10th December 2020 at 18:19

John Clark 10th December 2020 at 22:49

———————————-

BRS Glossary Document SWUC350

 

"Given the highly sensitive nature of the proceedings at this stage, we are unable to provide any more

detail in respect of the claim."

———————————-

 

Will inevitably be settled out of court and no dirty washing aired in public.

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Cluster OnePosted on11:10 pm - Dec 10, 2020


John Clark 10th December 2020 at 22:49
……………
Star wars day as it is now known now May the 4th.
Looking back May 4, 2012 Bill Miller American Dream.
Crossbar challenge May 4, 2013.
Big push for rangers supporters trust fund to go live on the 5th. May 4th 2014.
Craig whyte trial reports fraudsters tried to buy club May 4, 2017.
Lots more fun to come

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gunnerbPosted on11:15 pm - Dec 10, 2020


I am not comfortable with public funds being used to support private enterprise at any time. Either the enterprise is owned and operated by and for the benefit of the tax payer or it stands accountable to its shareholders who must decide the best course of action. Should the government of the day seek to invest public money in private enterprise then we should  expect a reasonable return or dividend on such. Football should not be an exception. I see low interest loans are mentioned, perhaps this could be limited to a maximum of £100000 and anything above charged at commercial rates. This would ensure the wider football community would benefit without advantage being offered to larger concerns.

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John ClarkPosted on12:02 am - Dec 11, 2020


gunnerb 10th December 2020 at 22:56

'..Will inevitably be settled out of court and no dirty washing aired in public.'

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Perhaps that will depend on whether Duff and Phelps, the international firm, want, on the basis of what they might have been told, to support the Administrators or throw them to the lions? 

Their good name is of world-wide importance to them. 

Would I use D&P if my [hypothetical!] business was at the stage of looking for an Administrator?

Absolutely not!

If I had a friend( small chance!) or a brother whose business was unable to to continue would I recommend D&P as Administrators?

Absolutely not.

And that's what D&P international have to take into account: the track record.

And everybody knows that being 'settled out of court' is little more than an admission that the truth is that the other party has won, and lets minimise the damages and costs.

 

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bect67Posted on12:49 pm - Dec 11, 2020


Admittedly off topic, but I do wonder about modern day journalists' understanding, and command, of basic English e.g.

"Simon Jordan fears for Neil Lennon who may have an 'unwritable' ship" (Transfer Tavern – Nathan Linley)

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