Mr Green and Opportunity Knocks— For Aberdeen?

Bybroganrogantrevinoandhogan

Mr Green and Opportunity Knocks— For Aberdeen?

Good Morning,

In the last week, we have seen a number of strange occurrences in Scottish Football, which if taken together might just point to a very different land than the one we were lead to believe we live in just two short years ago.

First of all there was the report from a firm of well known accountants which pronounced that a significant number of Scottish Football Clubs had, in fact, sold more season tickets for this coming season than they had in the course of the last several years.

Then we had the spectacle of the National team travelling to Wembley and playing very well AND being cheered on by a very large travelling support who appear to have been full of fun and who acquitted themselves well in the big smoke.

This morning I read that today’s match at Pittodrie is a sell out — with the old stadium being packed to the rafters for the visit of Celtic. This is the first time that Aberdeen have been able to sell out the fixture for some 6 years!

Not only that, various Celtic supporting websites have lead with articles saying that the return of a strong Aberdeen and Dundee United are to be welcomed– in fact not only welcomed but positively wished for.

In contrast, stories abound about the in fighting on the Ibrox Board. There are surreptitious share dealings and all sorts of company jockeying being deployed by the rival factions who are trying to gain control of The Rangers. Further, there is the suggestion from some well informed parties that not only will Ibrox and the Albion be sold and leased back to the club to generate much needed immediate cash, but that Murray Park has been sold off completely and will no longer be available to The Rangers for any purpose whatsoever!

Clearly, there are big troubles at the club which will not assist in the stated intention of rising to the very top in Scottish Football.

In between all of this, the debate goes on about Campbell Ogilvie, Press manipulation, the correspondence  between Media House and the SFA, and between The SFA and Ibrox re the relationship between Charlie Green and Craig Whyte and so on.

Standing with my business hat on, I looked at all of this and wondered what it all meant, and pretty quickly reached the conclusion that we are now in a time of supreme opportunity for some of the clubs in Scottish Football—- particularly Aberdeen FC.

There is a view abroad, that in the absence of the “Strong Rangers” that Celtic Football Club will win the SPFL title for almost evermore — or at least until they are toppled from the top spot by the rise of a strong Rangers club somewhere towards the end of this decade or early in the next– because we are assured that they will be back– in one form or another– in a rather Arnold Schwarzenegger  like fashion.

That return or initial rise if you like– its timing and its manner— is dependent on a number of things– not least the exit strategy of Charlie Green and his cohorts.

If it is true that The Rangers are going to part company with Ibrox and the Albion, that they have taken on a loan of funds which attract a rate of interest that amounts to 15% per annum, and that there are set figures for buying the old ( and decaying ) stadium back any time soon, and that they have yet again hawked the season ticket money, then the already flawed Ibrox business plan is burdened even more by interest and rent payments of an additional £3M per annum and rising!

It should also be noted that the accounts for old co from the mid naughties onwards boasted that season ticket sales, merchandising, corporate hospitality and so on had reached unprecedented levels—- but—- the club still did not make an operating profit without strange internals transactions such as the repurchase of media rights which added £15M on to the P&L’s AND the sale of Jean Alain Boomsong!

Accordingly, the current position will not make for good financial reading.

So– let’s presume that in the current climate Celtic are out of sight and will always be champions for ever and a day. What do the rest of the clubs say in the absence of the Ibrox club without whom they have been told they will perish?

Well, If I were in charge of Aberdeen FC I would look out across a city with an inherent population of some 220,000 souls sitting in a county which takes the population up by another 40,000 or so. I would note that the compact city also houses two universities and a number of colleges — all of which attract visitors to the city— and that its position as the oil capital of Europe also draws in a substantial number of itinerant workers.

Further, personal knowledge shows that many who studied at Aberdeen University or Robert Gordon’s in the 80’s left the city as Aberdeen FC fans and no matter where they have ended up in life they still make the journey back to Pittodrie when they can– especially in good times!

Alas, however, Aberdeen has not enjoyed ” Good Times” of late— in fact not really since ……….. the arrival of David Murray at Ibrox!

If you cast your mind back to the pre Murray era, Aberdeen were a force not only in Scotland but Europe as the recent nostalgia re Gothenburg has reminded us.

The city has an economic micro climate which suggests that it can ride economic hardship better than most and so all things considered this current period provides a great opportunity for the Dons.

Unlike Dundee United, Hearts, and Hibs, Aberdeen FC sits in a large one team conurbation and should be on the doorstep of a populace which can fill Pittodrie every single week …… IF that fan base can be motivated.

And there lies the rub– how do you get a notoriously fickle fan base out of the armchair and into the stadium?

The late Bob Crampsey once described Pittodrie by saying ” And there are the masses of Aberdeen fans, masquerading as rows and rows of Empty seats!” yet in their heydey an Aberdeen crowd on a visit to Glasgow were among the noisiest– and to this football fans eyes — the scariest ( in a good sense ) supports to be seen.

Well, at this juncture, Derek McInnes and team need only look at every other football club in the land ( bar Celtic ) and determine that come next May those others will be below them in the league. If Aberdeen maintain a strong league run keeping everyone behind them then there is the possibility of a huge revenue swing in favour of the Dons– such a swing that would put them in an even stronger position for the following year.

Further, Aberdeen are a European name. Perhaps a European name from yesteryear and not the recent past, but the pedigree is there and as such there will be those who remember the heady European Nights both home and away. Reviving those memories and that reputation– at least to an extent– is not beyond the club, and with no disrespect to Motherwell and St Johnstone both of whom are liable to lose key players or even a manager between seasons, Aberdeen may just be of a size to consolidate each year rather than scramble to maintain the momentum of one good season which comes along every now and then.

Financial management and football rewards can go hand in hand when combined properly, and of all the clubs in Scotland who can benefit from a level playing field in terms of proper football governance, Aberdeen FC are uniquely placed in my opinion.

That is not so say that The Arabs, or the Hibees or anyone else cannot benefit– on the contrary— but the Dons are the most obvious candidates in terms of potential structure to really motor forward and regain a by gone status.

Such a situation, and the recognition of that potential, should be borne in mind by all at Celtic Football Club, as last year they struggled for a period in the league while they concentrated on their European exploits. If Celtic want to go further and further in Europe ( and why shouldn’t they ) they will have to be wary of any club which is capable of reigniting its fortunes from a lowly position or a position of having to look back at glory and potential glory rather than looking forward.

Further, with the way things are being organised at Ibrox, there is absolutely no guarantee ( some would say likelihood ) that an eventual challenge to a perceived dominance by Celtic will come from that quarter, and life in the top flight for any returning Rangers could prove very difficult if the likes of Aberdeen get their act together and start to produce the type of home grown team of old.

For now, I sense a degree of optimism about the Dons– not just on the playing front either.  They have a fan base, they have a business model and a good young manager, and any comparative business exercise must conclude that they have every chance of rising above most of their rivals in the league, in terms of revenue, in terms of brand development and business expansion.

If I were an Aberdeen fan I would like to think positive and be ambitious in this climate, whilst at the same time casting an eye back to the days when they were top of the tree.

As one Aberdeen supporting ( but now Edinburgh based ) friend put it to me:

” Ah, those were the days my friend, those were the days……………”

About the author

broganrogantrevinoandhogan author

Boot wearing football, sport & total nonsense fan-- Gourmet, Bon Viveur and eedgit! - Oh and I write a bit occasionally!

2,310 Comments so far

PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on8:58 pm - Aug 26, 2013


@Tif Finn
The reason for my publicly stated scepticism is very well founded.
At the moment that is all I can offer you.

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Tif FinnPosted on9:03 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 8:58 pm

No problem Phil, I am more than happy to take you on your word.

I’m just surprised they can have kept going this long and can only assume they are getting additional funds from somewhere. Who would have guessed the whole scenario with Ticketus with the previous club. A bit of borrowing yes, but the lengths they had gone to, no chance.

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Danish PastryPosted on9:05 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 8:39 pm
8 0 Rate This

… Much of the monies from the institutional investors was in the form of promissary notes.
—————

So when Stockbridge said the £22m was gone, he might have meant that it was never there, at least not that amount? Are they already running on fumes? Surely not, it’s not even September.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:05 pm - Aug 26, 2013


@ redlichtie

The Promissory notes are just that-promises.

The institution states that they will invest X amount subject to certain deliverables from the new company.

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SouthernExilePosted on9:06 pm - Aug 26, 2013


@PMGB

On one side, we have Cenkos submitting a statement to AIM saying that £22.5m was raised.

Their licence to operate and hence livelihood depends on this being factually accurate.

On the other side, you have consistently questioned this figure.

You say you are a journalist, where are your sources and evidence?

Why should anyone believe you?

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:09 pm - Aug 26, 2013


http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/has-charles-been-caught-short/

I haven’t changed my mind on this because I don’t have any new evidence to convince me otherwise

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newtzPosted on9:11 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Tif Finn says:August 26, 2013 at 9:03 pm

Ibrox has been leaking for some years ….. and continues to do so ….. lately the Blue Room has sprung a few leaks ….

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on9:15 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 8:39 pm
3 0 Rate This

newtz says:
August 26, 2013 at 7:50 pm

As you know I have consistently (and without sniggering) questioned the official fiction that £22.5M in aye readies was raised by the IPO.
I am confident that the figure that the fans were supposed to have come up with (£5.5M) is overstated.

Much of the monies from the institutional investors was in the form of promissary notes.

————————————————-

any idea how much they did bring in, in cash to the company from both the institutionalized investors and from the fans.

Would they be allowed to make AIM statements about the amount raised if it included promissory notes? Or is it ok to include such sums even if not delivered.

the downside to this, of course, is if the sum raised was only £10M CASH at the IPO – then all our talks of them dying around Christmas will be off the mark, as that would mean they are not burning through cash at the expected rate (or they’d already be in admin!!)

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helpmaboabPosted on9:15 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Brenda
Of course I meant TDs.Presumably that’s why I got so many. Av got a ‘riddie’ noo.
Well said anyway.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:15 pm - Aug 26, 2013


@SouthernExile
The National Union of Journalists says I am a journalist.
http://www.scottishreviewofbooks.org/index.php/back-issues/volume-8-2012/volume-eight-issue-four/522-what-s-the-score-kevin-mckenna
“If Mac Giolla Bhain had been employed as a staffer on any of Scotland’s dozen or so national newspaper titles he would be a certainty to be crowned sportswriter of the year, news reporter of the year and journalist of the year for his work on the Rangers story.”

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:17 pm - Aug 26, 2013


@SouthernExile
I think you may wish to look at why Cenkos is no longer the NOMAD for RIFC…

A core value for journalists is the protection of sources.
I would not have been able to tell the story of the downfall of Rangers without excellent sources who remained anonymous.

Journalists are usually believed on a story due to their track record.

Most reasonable people (obviously not The People) think my track record on matters Ibrox is pretty…well… reasonable.

There there

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Tif FinnPosted on9:19 pm - Aug 26, 2013


SouthernExile says:
August 26, 2013 at 9:06 pm

Does every newspaper article you have ever read, every TV exposé you have watched, every radio report you have listened to specifically name their source.

Sometimes things are evaluated by the credibility of the source themselves and how they describe the material they provide. If they have a good past record and say that the information is from a source they trust and has been good in the past then it is credible information.

If it is from an untested source, or they themselves are not willing to speak for it’s credibility then it is much less reliable. A lot of it is down to personal experience.

I have spoken about the Easdale’s and what they are. That comes from people who I trust, with first hand experience. People can choose to believe me or not. The same goes for any information you receive, you evaluate it yourself and make your own judgement.

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davythelotionPosted on9:24 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 8:39 pm
3 0 Rate This

newtz says:
August 26, 2013 at 7:50 pm
%%%%%%
In layman’s language, does ‘promissory note’ mean the same as me having a ticket for Tuesday’s Euro millions? Today it could be worth £80m, this time tomorrow it could be a worthless scrap of paper. The odds are against me!:-)

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on9:25 pm - Aug 26, 2013


@Not The Huddle Malcontent

Apropos Sevco cash burn I never took part in the “dead by Christmas” conjecture.
They are undoubtedly a loss making business without a credit line from a bank.
Until we have audited accounts any predictions on the timescale of the Sevco cash crisis is simply guess work.

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BrendaPosted on9:28 pm - Aug 26, 2013


helpmaboab @ 9.15pm

Cheers 😀

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BangordubPosted on9:30 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Worth a read: Signs of trouble ahead.
Or “Deja vu” in other words

http://www.investopedia.com/slide-show/signs-doomed-stock/

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ianagainPosted on9:45 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 8:39 pm
3 0 Rate This

newtz says:
August 26, 2013 at 7:50 pm

As you know I have consistently (and without sniggering) questioned the official fiction that £22.5M in aye readies was raised by the IPO.
I am confident that the figure that the fans were supposed to have come up with (£5.5M) is overstated.

Much of the monies from the institutional investors was in the form of promissary notes.

————————————————-

Phil

Agreed.

Never believed in the cash raised. Was especially circumspect of the fans cash in the pre xmas timing.

I made it 17m usable tops. The ditching of Cenkos highly significant.

As you say we will see the end date when it arrives, not before.

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BangordubPosted on9:58 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PS: Is the TD phantom lurking again? :mrgreen:

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ecobhoyPosted on10:01 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
August 26, 2013 at 9:15 pm
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 8:39 pm
newtz says:
August 26, 2013 at 7:50 pm

As you know I have consistently (and without sniggering) questioned the official fiction that £22.5M in aye readies was raised by the IPO. I am confident that the figure that the fans were supposed to have come up with (£5.5M) is overstated. Much of the monies from the institutional investors was in the form of promissary notes.
————————————————-
any idea how much they did bring in, in cash to the company from both the institutionalized investors and from the fans. Would they be allowed to make AIM statements about the amount raised if it included promissory notes? Or is it ok to include such sums even if not delivered.

the downside to this, of course, is if the sum raised was only £10M CASH at the IPO – then all our talks of them dying around Christmas will be off the mark, as that would mean they are not burning through cash at the expected rate (or they’d already be in admin!!)
===========================================================
I find it difficult to believe that someone like Green would issue shares against promissory notes. And if he didn’t then that means that all the relevant statements given to AIM are fiction.

But if promissory notes have been given in lieu of cash what is the trigger event for the notes?

The only people who could have offered promissory notes IMO are the Institutional Investors but some of them are listed by AIM as shareholders because of the % of shares they hold and it would appear that Laxey paid £1 a share at flotation and if they didn’t then how is the transfer of additional shares to them by Green explained to make up the difference between the 70p flotation price and the £1 paid by Laxey?

If Cenkos was party to or aware of promissory notes being used and I can’t see how they wouldn’t be then surely their replacements as broker and Nomad would have immediately made an announcement to AIM of the true situation so as to keep themselves ‘clean’.

But it’s correct that if they didn’t raise £22.5 million at the flotation then their ‘burn rate’ must be a lot lower than a lot of us think it is unless they are lying about the money in the kitty always remembering that £1.5 million of that appears to be an undeclared loan from SportsDirect which has been labelled ‘income’.

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wottpiPosted on10:07 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Re Phil Mac and the amounts raised by the IPO.

Would anyone be surpised if £22m wasn’t put in the bank at the end of last year?
Even if it was then who knows what has been taken back between then and now?
Only the other week Alastair Johnstone referred to Walter resigning fromthe board and saying that he was shocked by share dealing and ‘compensation’.
Some of those who put money in will want money or something back.
I keep going back to the Dragon’s Den.
What seems like a pile of cash to the hopeful entrepreneurs and the viewers sometimes isn’t how it pans out.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303097/Dragons-Den-winner-reveals-80k-promise-fact-loan–26-500-emerged.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1354734/Den-dashed-dreams-How-Dragons-dont-word-cameras-stop-rolling.html
I for one am happy to go with Phil’s record and the fact that people just don’t stick millions in without covering their backsides or wanting something in back return.
You only have to see what Laxeys had in their back pocket for Charlie when the share price went south.
Even if a handful of investors have similar or alternative get out clauses then T’Rangerrs will be in bother at some point in the future.
It really is a case of hoping they can survive until they can get back to the Premiership and charge top dollar.
A few hurdles to be jumped yet and anyone of them could see them out of the race.

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SouthernExilePosted on10:13 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 9:09 pm
8 0 Rate This

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/has-charles-been-caught-short/

I haven’t changed my mind on this because I don’t have any new evidence to convince me otherwise
———————–
Phil
I’ve read your link. Problem to me is it doesn’t show any evidence, just your gut feel. Not difficult to not change your mind in those circumstances.

Re Cenkos, my guess (I have no inside knowledge) is that they were appalled by the shenanigans and said, we are going to resign or we can agree quietly to part company.

Any suggestion their departure has anything to do with the amount raised is in my opinion nonsense. Why do you think otherwise?

No need to disclose sources, just say why they decided to commit professional suicide for a bust little football club in a far off land?

See what I did there? We short paras with a max of two sentences.

D’ye think a could get a job on the Sun?

Evidenced analysis is what I love about this site. I think you are a pretty good polemicist, but your interruptions are intrusive to the flow and the tenor of this place.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:21 pm - Aug 26, 2013


@SouthernExile
Sorry, but I don’t feed trolls.
Interaction over.

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ecobhoyPosted on10:24 pm - Aug 26, 2013


wottpi says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:07 pm

You only have to see what Laxeys had in their back pocket for Charlie when the share price went south.
Even if a handful of investors have similar or alternative get out clauses then T’Rangerrs will be in bother at some point in the future.
==================================================================

The Laxeys original investment was made pre-flotation when Green was virtually out of money and desperate to get an injection to get to flotation. At that time the flotation price was being pitched at £1 – £1.50 which I think was pure spin from Green.

But the point is that Laxeys paid £1 a share but had a ‘rider’ that if the company was floated for less than £1 then they would have the difference made up in shares. What I have never quite been able to understand is why the exytra shares came from Green’s bonus and not from RIFC Plc.

But it’s important to understand that Laxeys deal with Green had nothing to do with the share price going south but the price the shares would be floated at.

According to the info supplied to AIM the Institutional Investors who took part in the placement part of the RIFC Plc share offer paid 70p a share – obviously Laxeys had ensured they would have the same deal by being handed extra shares at no cost. The SMSM still doesn’t seem to have figured this out and appears to think that Green sold these flotation price ‘adjustment’ shares to them.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on10:26 pm - Aug 26, 2013


@ecobhoy
Sometimes sources are wrong or something else comes in from left field that is unforeseen.
However I had two sources who got eyes on major documents at the close of the IPO.
I am very happy with the integrity of both sources-they haven’t been wrong before.

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ianagainPosted on10:29 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Anyone who thinks the AIM market is well regulated is deluded.
Its a snakepit.

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SouthernExilePosted on10:29 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Phil

I apologise about the comments about the paras and the Sun. Uncalled for, to much exuberance on this hot bank holiday.

What about the meat of the argument?

Why would Cenkos lie?

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taxman comethPosted on10:33 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:26 pm
0 0 Rate This

@ecobhoy
Sometimes sources are wrong or something else comes in from left field that is unforeseen.
However I had two sources who got eyes on major documents at the close of the IPO.
I am very happy with the integrity of both sources-they haven’t been wrong before.

=========

I don’t see how it would be revealing sources to say what the figures were, or just more kite flying?

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SouthernExilePosted on10:46 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Phil

You have two sources, good, blame can be diffused and no individual can be fingered.

Just give us the facts, man, what was the shortfall? One million, ten million, something in between?

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ecobhoyPosted on10:46 pm - Aug 26, 2013


SouthernExile says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:13 pm

Re Cenkos, my guess (I have no inside knowledge) is that they were appalled by the shenanigans and said, we are going to resign or we can agree quietly to part company.
=============================================================
I think what you say has some merit on why Cenkos walked but I have thought that after Ahmad and Green left Ibrox they didn’t want the 18 month lock-in to apply to their shares, Cenkos had arranged that all directors and key employees weren’t just locked-in for 12 months but for another 6 months on top and they had them sign this.

I think the battle over this probably tipped the balance and made Cenkos walk. However I have always been wary of them from the start as they would have been well aware of Green and Ahmad and presumably the background to the deal. Would Green have picked them if he didn’t think they would be sympathetic. Or did Zeus demand that they were brought on board to represent their interests? I don’t know because I don’t have any contacts who can tell me.

The Rangers AIM Flotation document clearly states that they expected to raise £27 million and that was basically split between the £17 million II Placing and the £10 million Offer to fans. The latter was undersubscribed by approx 50% which gave us a £22.2 million flotation less a couple of million minimum in costs. So we have, at best, £20 million. If it wasn’t £20 million then what was it? That is the question and if it wasn’t all in cash how much was in promissory notes and did these IIs get shares in return for the notes.

As usual in the Rangers story more questions than answers.

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ecobhoyPosted on10:52 pm - Aug 26, 2013


taxman cometh says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:33 pm
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:26 pm

@ecobhoy
Sometimes sources are wrong or something else comes in from left field that is unforeseen.
However I had two sources who got eyes on major documents at the close of the IPO.
I am very happy with the integrity of both sources-they haven’t been wrong before.
=========
I don’t see how it would be revealing sources to say what the figures were, or just more kite flying?
==============================================================
I wouldn’t agree with you that a source can’t be revealed by stating the figure. What if only two people know the actual figure and one of them is Green? Sources don’t need to be named to be identifiable as often the info released can identify them in my experience,

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ecobhoyPosted on10:59 pm - Aug 26, 2013


PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:26 pm

@ecobhoy
Sometimes sources are wrong or something else comes in from left field that is unforeseen.
However I had two sources who got eyes on major documents at the close of the IPO.
I am very happy with the integrity of both sources-they haven’t been wrong before.
=================================================================
Phil I am happy to take your word that your sources are reliable and obviously any journalist judges their sources on past record and whether they could have access to the info they claim to have. Of course even good sources who are always right usually have an axe to grind.

However that isn’t necessarily a bad thing although it can be helpful to know what the axe is 😉

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slimshady61Posted on10:59 pm - Aug 26, 2013


You are left wondering why the MSM run down the Scottish game after seeing what £770M of talent can do to enhance the EPL.

At the weekend we had six games of which 4 at least were highly entertaining, involving good goals and no little skill.

Tonight we had two defensive set ups (both fans afterwards in the main delighted with a point), more misplaced passes than I saw in Scotland during the whole of last season and the loudest cheer of the night reserved for the dead (and I don’t mean Rangers).

The English Premiership is a busted flush compared to Germany, Spain Italy or even France.

If that had been an SPFL game, Provan would undoubtedly have said at the end “neither team was good enough to win it – very disappointing – the game is all about goals and we got none”

Instead tonight we got “great game, both teams very tactically astute, good entertainment for both sets of fans….”

Pathetic

54 (minutes better spent watching paint dry)

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taxman comethPosted on11:03 pm - Aug 26, 2013


ecobhoy says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:59 pm
0 0 Rate This

PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:26 pm

@ecobhoy
Sometimes sources are wrong or something else comes in from left field that is unforeseen.
However I had two sources who got eyes on major documents at the close of the IPO.
I am very happy with the integrity of both sources-they haven’t been wrong before.
=================================================================
Phil I am happy to take your word that your sources are reliable and obviously any journalist judges their sources on past record and whether they could have access to the info they claim to have. Of course even good sources who are always right usually have an axe to grind.

However that isn’t necessarily a bad thing although it can be helpful to know what the axe is 😉

======

I see it as – keep it vague and claim credit present “facts” and if they are wrong risk humiliation, a blind man (even one not in the NUJ) can see that this is a train wreck heading for the buffers at an unknown speed – in this regard Phil is just the same a anyone else using guesswork.

bit like cold reading

my 2p

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ecobhoyPosted on11:20 pm - Aug 26, 2013


taxman cometh says:
August 26, 2013 at 11:03 pm

I see it as – keep it vague and claim credit present “facts” and if they are wrong risk humiliation, a blind man (even one not in the NUJ) can see that this is a train wreck heading for the buffers at an unknown speed – in this regard Phil is just the same a anyone else using guesswork. bit like cold reading my 2p
————————————————————————————————————————
I think this is a potential train wreck heading for the buffers but you are correct in that the speed is ‘unknown’ and indeed the buffers might never be hit at least not hard enough to derail the train.

We are dealing with a highly skilled spiv operation and I think there is still a lot of fat left on Rangers waiting to be stripped. Parasites attempt not to kill their host until it is no longer of any use to them and I’m sure the spivs still have a few financial surprises up their sleeve for the Bears.

There’s some things that Phil has stated that I don’t agree with but the majority of his output has been pretty close to the mark and a lot has been down to info from his sources and his dogged determination to get at the truth.

He has been a key element in getting a helluva lot of football fans to the current level of understanding that few had previously reached – OK others have pitched in as well but he has been highly important in the process. Unfortunately you appear to have personalised the issue to some extent and that is always a turn-off for me.

At the end of the day sometimes I and even journos have info that I will use but might be wanting to pick the time to do so and might need another bit of info that I think would add to the impact. So Phil may well be doing something similar but at the end of the day it’s his info and his choice how and when he releases it.

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taxman comethPosted on11:24 pm - Aug 26, 2013


ecobhoy says:
August 26, 2013 at 11:20 pm
0 0 Rate This

taxman cometh says:
August 26, 2013 at 11:03 pm

I see it as – keep it vague and claim credit present “facts” and if they are wrong risk humiliation, a blind man (even one not in the NUJ) can see that this is a train wreck heading for the buffers at an unknown speed – in this regard Phil is just the same a anyone else using guesswork. bit like cold reading my 2p
————————————————————————————————————————
I think this is a potential train wreck heading for the buffers but you are correct in that the speed is ‘unknown’ and indeed the buffers might never be hit at least not hard enough to derail the train.

We are dealing with a highly skilled spiv operation and I think there is still a lot of fat left on Rangers waiting to be stripped. Parasites attempt not to kill their host until it is no longer of any use to them and I’m sure the spivs still have a few financial surprises up their sleeve for the Bears.

There’s some things that Phil has stated that I don’t agree with but the majority of his output has been pretty close to the mark and a lot has been down to info from his sources and his dogged determination to get at the truth.

He has been a key element in getting a helluva lot of football fans to the current level of understanding that few had previously reached – OK others have pitched in as well but he has been highly important in the process. Unfortunately you appear to have personalised the issue to some extent and that is always a turn-off for me.

At the end of the day sometimes I and even journos have info that I will use but might be wanting to pick the time to do so and might need another bit of info that I think would add to the impact. So Phil may well be doing something similar but at the end of the day it’s his info and his choice how and when he releases it.

=====

Just I consider journalism investigative or otherwise to deal in facts

not to be a “journalistic” John Edward

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BangordubPosted on11:27 pm - Aug 26, 2013


Regarding Phil,
I am struggling to think of when he has been wrong so far.
It is also interesting that the discussion is taking this turn given recent “appointments” at a certain club.
Perhaps I am being over sensitive?

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paulsatimPosted on12:14 am - Aug 27, 2013


Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharlotteFakes 14m
Here’s Campbell Ogilvie fully aware of the Discounted Option Scheme (wee tax case) as far back as 1999.

http://i.imgur.com/DqL9OG3.png
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharlotteFakes 6h
A plea from Imran Ahmad to selected journalists (personal email). Traynor on distribution list replies.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/163221599/Media-Pals … #NastyMan

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andyPosted on12:14 am - Aug 27, 2013


August 26, 2013 at 10:01 pm
9 1 Rate This

Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
August 26, 2013 at 9:15 pm
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 26, 2013 at 8:39 pm
newtz says:
August 26, 2013 at 7:50 pm

As you know I have consistently (and without sniggering) questioned the official fiction that £22.5M in aye readies was raised by the IPO. I am confident that the figure that the fans were supposed to have come up with (£5.5M) is overstated. Much of the monies from the institutional investors was in the form of promissary notes.
————————————————-
any idea how much they did bring in, in cash to the company from both the institutionalized investors and from the fans. Would they be allowed to make AIM statements about the amount raised if it included promissory notes? Or is it ok to include such sums even if not delivered.

the downside to this, of course, is if the sum raised was only £10M CASH at the IPO – then all our talks of them dying around Christmas will be off the mark, as that would mean they are not burning through cash at the expected rate (or they’d already be in admin!!)
===========================================================
I find it difficult to believe that someone like Green would issue shares against promissory notes. And if he didn’t then that means that all the relevant statements given to AIM are fiction.

But if promissory notes have been given in lieu of cash what is the trigger event for the notes?

_______________
if this is the case with some of the investors do they still get a vote in the GM ?

View Comment

redlichtiePosted on12:15 am - Aug 27, 2013


CF has more on the world’s greatest football administrator…this kimd of exposure must be taxing.

Scottish football needs a strong Arbroath.

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bigsbeePosted on12:23 am - Aug 27, 2013


Not posted for a long while but always keep tabs on what is going on.

Noticed in the last week or so subtle ‘attacks’ made toward regular posters – perhaps the tactic is to get them to post less or to even take umbrage and stop posting – look back and see for yourself. If they are challenged the trolls come out with an apology and slip off on a different tack

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Gym TrainerPosted on1:01 am - Aug 27, 2013


Ref Charlotte’s revelation this evening…

Am I alone in reading the letterhead purportedly from 1999 as “The Rangers Football Club” you know what Hughie changed it to after resuscitating the corpse…

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TallBoy PoppyPosted on1:26 am - Aug 27, 2013


newtz says:
August 26, 2013 at 6:18 pm
————————————-

You got this one?

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71656?oid=246629&sn=Detail&pid=71616

It looks like he off-shored his property assets and other stuff to a holding company incorporated in the Sunshine Islands.

Part (5) par (24) relates to his purchases of various properties in 1999
Part (6) par (29) goes into a little more detail about what he was holding in 2000

Further down, below [22] pars (1) & (2) details more addreses and dates

Most of the names have been redacted into initials but it might be possible to cross-ref.

View Comment

AuldheidPosted on1:58 am - Aug 27, 2013


Paulsatim
Well well. So Campbelll Ogilvie was well versed in the Discount Option Scheme that produced the wee tax bill that the SFA conflated with the Big Tax bill to explain why it had not crystallized and was not an overdue payable.
You would imagine that CO of all people would know the difference between a tax scheme that HMRC had proved to an FTT and UTT was used to evade tax and one where HMRC were trying to prove by the same process was also evasion.
Did Lord Nimmo Smith get briefed on the difference and should payments that were accepted as improper be judged in the same light as payments that at the time LNS gave his ruling were accepted as proper?
How could the SFA possibly have confused the two schemes when they had a man in situe who we now know had experience of both DOS share based schemes and EBT loan based schemes?
Was CO unaware in 1999 and thereafter about the side letters to Flo and De Boer whose existence Rangers denied to HMRC and on the basis of which Rangers were advised to settle in March 2011?
Far from being an innocent caught up in tax skullduggery as CO has portrayed himself, he now appears to have had a degree of involvement hitherto suspected but now revealed by CF.
Perhaps the UEFA licensing shenanigans in 2011 had more to it than just giving Rangers a lifeline?
I think it’s time the SFA came clean and explained the whole process from March to Sept 2011 and then December 2011 when CO and S Regan met Rangers to discuss strategy on the wee tax case and other matters.

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Danish PastryPosted on7:02 am - Aug 27, 2013


On my way to CF, I typed in ‘Charlotte Fakes’ in Google on this device. Fourth top of the list of links was this one to a discussion on RM. Perhaps old news for those of you who monitor these sites, but I found the discussion quite incredible. One or two very energetic posters who wanted all discussion of CF stopped. However, there do appear to be free thinkers willing to speak against the head-in-the-sand mentality:

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=257288&st=0

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wottpiPosted on7:07 am - Aug 27, 2013


ecobhoy says:
August 26, 2013 at 10:24 pm

Of course you are correct re Laxeys and thanks for picking up my error.

However I still would not be surprised if the same principles applied, in that Charlie would have sold his granny to make sure some kind of deal was done. The show and bluster was always far more important the the cold hard financial facts.
Remember this is a guy who said on STV that he would personally buy all the shares that the fans didn’t take up, Green Ahmed Stockbridge, the guys who arranged deals with Ashley that end ups them bveing minor partners and Puma with a royality paymnet no other club sees to work with.

View Comment

wottpiPosted on7:12 am - Aug 27, 2013


paulsatim says:

August 27, 2013 at 12:14 am

I note that Traynors response to Ahmed was 12 December by which time he had joined the circus.

View Comment

BarcabhoyPosted on7:57 am - Aug 27, 2013


A couple of thoughts on Charlottes latest.

The reference in the released letter is referenced DJO/sh. This suggests that the letter written by Ogilvie was part of a file in relation to work undertaken for Douglas Odam who was the finance director at the time.

This suggests that Ogilvie was involved as part of the team responsible for the DOS scheme, and not merely a bystander
Douglas Odam was a benificiary of the subsequent EBT scheme to the tune of £119,000. Ogilvie received £95,000

Secondly

This is a direct quote from the LNS report . The first quote is by Campbell Ogilvie, the second by LNS

He adds: “Nothing to do with the contributions being made to the Trust fell within the scope of my remit at Rangers.” The report adds: “However it should be noted that Mr Ogilvie was a member of the board of directors who approved the statutory accounts of Oldco which disclosed very substantial payments made under the EBT arrangements.”

Remember that the EBT scheme started in 2001. Christian Nerlinger was the first player who had an EBT. The management team at Rangers still had Douglas Odam and Campbell Ogilvie holding the same position at the time of the DOS highlighted by Charlotte

Wouldn’t it be entirely logical that Rangers would use the same individuals to administer the EBT scheme ? Wouldn’t that in turn discredit Ogilvie, and in turn the entire SFA executive team.

Of course if there was proof of Ogilvie’s involvement with administering the EBT scheme , then his position would be completely untenable.

Take this additional quote from the LNS report

The report states: “Oldco through its senior management decided that such side-letter arrangements should not be disclosed to the football authorities, and the Board of Directors sanctioned the making of payments under the side-letter arrangements without taking any legal or accountancy advice to justify the non-disclosure.”

To quote Hugh McDonald in The Herald : In short, Rangers weren’t telling and they weren’t telling why they weren’t telling.

So Rangers defence consisted of taking the fifth amendment, and because of that there was no contradictory evidence presented to LNS, which would have made a liar out of Ogilvie

Except the Ogilvie provided this direct quote to the Telegraph on March 14 2012

“My role at Rangers, until the mid-90s, included finalising the paperwork for player registrations.
“As confirmed by Sir David Murray today, it was never my role to negotiate contracts during my time at Rangers.
“It is also worth noting that, since the mid-90s, I was not responsible for the drafting or administering of player contracts.”

Mid 90’s !!! Yet we now have sight of a document that completely contradicts that, as Ogilvie is arranging the subscription of shares and share premiums in September 1999, on behalf of a ” valued employee of Rangers Football Club plc”

LNS reported the following

“Mr Ogilvie dealt with aspects of football administration at Rangers until late 2002 or early 2003.

Mr Dickson then assumed responsibility for all football administration. From 1998 until the time when Mr Ogilvie ceased to deal with football administration, Mr Murray (as he then was) took the lead in negotiating player transfers and player contracts. Until the early 1990s the relative documents were prepared by Mr Ogilvie, and from then on they were dealt with by Mr Odam.”

So the statements Ogilvie provided LNS contradict what he told The Telegraph and other media outlets

Ogilvie has tried to convey an innocence that is belied by Charlottes latest disclosure, and by his contradictory statements.

He has variously claimed involvement in Football administration ended in the mid 90’s and in statement to LNS admitted he was still involved in late 2002.

This doesn’t look like a conflicted individual who was kept out of the loop , this looks much much more sinister.

View Comment

AllyJamboPosted on8:39 am - Aug 27, 2013


“As journalists we have to separate what is interesting and what is relevant. There has been stuff on Charlotte Fakes that has made me think but has not yet made me act.”

I wonder if Tom English finds CF’s latest revelation to be interesting and relevant? Or will he just go squirrel hunting?

View Comment

BarcabhoyPosted on8:55 am - Aug 27, 2013


Just in case their is any doubt that the letter signed by Ogilvie didn’t refer to a player. It did, and a previous Charlotte leak showed Craig Moore receiving £150,000 (co-incidentally the same amount as Ogilvie instructed be subscribed for)

Even more co-incidently Moore received this money only a few days after Ogilvie sent his letter.

Yet Ogilvie still maintains none of this was anything to do with him.

Staggering

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AllyJamboPosted on9:03 am - Aug 27, 2013


Well, CF has now provided Campbell Ogilvie, and the whole of the SFA for that matter, with the perfect opportunity to debunk all the revelations. Come on Campbell, respond! Tell us you didn’t write this letter, or explain how you managed to write it without knowing what was going on – and while your at it, explain why it didn’t get into the hands of HMRC 😳

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ianagainPosted on9:13 am - Aug 27, 2013


Cost cutting redundancies and jobs for the girls.

 http://www.rangersrumours.co.uk/rangers-banter.php

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borussiabeefburgPosted on9:20 am - Aug 27, 2013


For all the conjecture on Ibrox finances, for speculation regarding Whyte/Green/DMurray connections, coupled with conundrums re creaming off shares and cash…….. I don’t think we, as punters, have much we can input to change that situation.

However, the SFA is definitely a different matter. To see in plain detail that the guy re-elected unanimously by all clubs to be president of the overall ruling body is both involved in the cheating, and it was, of other clubs, and a deceiver when offered friendly media space and towards official enquiries surely signals the end for cosy Campbell.

I think the roof actually is leaking!

View Comment

AllyJamboPosted on9:32 am - Aug 27, 2013


ianagain says:

August 27, 2013 at 9:13 am

Cost cutting redundancies and jobs for the girls.

 http://www.rangersrumours.co.uk/rangers-banter.php

That bear seems to have a better grasp of what’s really happening at his new club than most. It is actually quite well written piece and shows how the spivs are quite happy to fleece the little people for a few bob more. We all know that these redundancies, along with the much higher paid individuals, should have happened during the administration of RFC to increase the creditor pot, now it’s happening to give the veneer of ‘cost cutting’, and good fiscal management, but is really just about keeping the lights on until the main players can leave with their pockets bulging just a little bit more.

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AllyJamboPosted on9:48 am - Aug 27, 2013


http://www.rangersrumours.co.uk/rangers-banter.php

I know it’s only a rumours site, but has anyone heard about this supposed asbestos problem with Edmiston House? More expense?

26 Aug 2013 23:25:13
I HEAR a strong rumour that stockbridge’s wife is supplying legal advice to one of the sub contract companies he has contracted to carry out work on edminston house!

Sound like a severe conflict of interest from another lowlife who will continue to drain the lifeblood of our club!

Pity she didn’t investigate that edminston house is riddled with asbestos! What will she gain from this little enterprise, will hubby make sure she gets plenty of work slung her way? After all he does have plenty of previous!

Will edminston house be safe and will it open as planned?

How much more will this cost the club over and above the initial outlay?

Will the club prove who owns the deeds to this part of the clubs assets?

Another disgrace by the shyster board members!

RR

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torrejohnbhoyPosted on9:56 am - Aug 27, 2013


Allyjambo says:
August 27, 2013 at 9:48 am
————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Guy with reply No.4 has a 💡 moment!

Rumour is that as we now have club and company seperate, club owes company £15m loan – and therefore assets can be switched from one to other at moments notice.
Can he,and others like him,educate the others?.
If they can,is there time to save TRFC in its entirety?.
Probably not.

View Comment

TartawulverPosted on10:25 am - Aug 27, 2013


ianagain says:
August 27, 2013 at 9:13 am
http://www.rangersrumours.co.uk/rangers-banter.php
—————————————————-
An incidental line from the above link says that if The Rangers do go for another administration, the usual suspects will be able to select their administrator AGAIN, which would open to the door to more odd things happening, following the huge squad being retained last time, sleight of hand between the two Sevco comanies, etc, etc. That has probably been mentioned on here before, but I hadn’t grasped just how much power they might have to spin the Rangers fans through yet another circle of hell. How those guys keep pumping in their money to the ‘club’ is beyond me. New motto for the badge – ‘Ready to be fleeced again’.

View Comment

AllyJamboPosted on10:32 am - Aug 27, 2013


torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:

August 27, 2013 at 9:56 am

I think that guy must read this site 🙂

I think it is too late for them to wake up and ‘save’ TRFC, though it’s possible it might survive as we’ve seen so many unbelievable things happen in this saga.

While I truly believe Green and co will do their best to suck the company, or companies, dry, I doubt it is part of their plan to ‘kill’ the club off completely, though they won’t baulk at that if it will gain them a few more pennies. It is likely that there will come a point when the spivs (the main ones) will decide it’s time to cut and run, and it will depend on what’s left behind how the club will fare. In the event the club does survive it will have nothing to do with the bears actions as they have played into the spivs hands at every turn. Probably not for the last time!

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ecobhoyPosted on10:45 am - Aug 27, 2013


taxman cometh says:
August 26, 2013 at 11:24 pm

Just I consider journalism investigative or otherwise to deal in facts not to be a “journalistic” John Edward
===========================================================
I see you have returned to the theme of ‘cold reading’ in what I perceive as another personalised attack on Phil.

I don’t know Phil personally and have never even spoken to him so the personal judgement I make on him is based on his contribution to uncovering the deceit and corruption at the heart of the Scottish game and in that regard he is one of a tiny band of journalists writing about the story who has dealt in the facts of it.

If another poster who had also been actively involved in attempting to unearth the corruption at the SFA and beyond into the Establishment was taking issue with what Phil was saying then I would give it more attention than your increasingly personal attacks on Phil because I am having difficulty in bringing to mind anything of note that you have contributed to the cleansing of Scottish Football. I may well be wrong and am happy to hear anything you have unearthed.

When dealing with corruption and secrecy it is sometimes impossible to have all the facts and often the starting point is to have none. However even without facts the cause and effect is often visible and through a detailed tracing of connections and what often initially appears to be unconnected events start to form a pattern and the plot becomes clearer. We have been greatly helped by the CF disclosures because she has provided ‘facts’ often through original correspondence which no one has claimed to be false.

What is heartening to me is how far bampots and clatterers had got to the truth through their efforts without any help from the SMSM and indeed active interference from a dirty-tricks PR campaign against anyone who has lifted their head above the parapet in a bid to establish the truth.

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AllyJamboPosted on10:50 am - Aug 27, 2013


TW says:

August 27, 2013 at 10:25 am

It might well be possible for them to appoint the administrators as they, themselves, will probably be, or are fronting for, the main creditors, and so, unless the courts smell a rat, and we know their noses are blocked with all things ‘Rangers’, their choice will be allowed. I doubt it will be Duff and Phelps, though! They won’t be forced into administration unless they move into an insolvent position, and unless that’s part of the plan, they are more likely to go into voluntary liquidation which will give the spivs total control of the process. As I said previously, I doubt it’s part of the plan to ‘kill’ off the club, anymore than a conman would plan to kill his victim, though he might leave him without a home, or his trousers 😯

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AllyJamboPosted on11:00 am - Aug 27, 2013


ecobhoy says:
August 27, 2013 at 10:45 am

taxman cometh says:
August 26, 2013 at 11:24 pm

To add to what ecobhoy said, though I doubt Phil needs me to defend him:

If Phil had jumped on a bandwagon that was already rolling, then taxman’s claims might have some justification; the fact he was the one to break the story… well, need I say more?

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FIFAPosted on11:32 am - Aug 27, 2013


Did we maybe miss the real reason there was no opposing Ogilvies re-election ,he then would have been able to slink away from the crimes he has commited ,keep him in place and let him be brought to book in his position as President and everyone else involved, as sure as night follows day he will sing like a linty.

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scapaflowPosted on11:36 am - Aug 27, 2013


FIFA says:

August 27, 2013 at 11:32 am

You are kidding aren’t you? If you’re serious, you are mistaking cowardice for strategy.

View Comment

ForresDeePosted on11:38 am - Aug 27, 2013


FIFA says:
August 27, 2013 at 11:32 am

That has been my thinking (in hope) on this matter, all the clubs will understand that he’s finished, it’s just more of a public flogging when he’s punted!

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AllyJamboPosted on11:41 am - Aug 27, 2013


FIFA says:

August 27, 2013 at 11:32 am

Would be nice to think that was the case FIFA, but I suspect complacency and a lack of sphericals was the main reason. Ogilvie’s comeuppance is long overdue, but as with all the bad guys in this saga, I can see him getting away with it.

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NawlitePosted on11:42 am - Aug 27, 2013


An open letter to Tom English….

Tom,

Campbell Ogilvie, the president of a publicly funded body, has repeatedly stated to various members of the press that he was not involved in matters relating to player payments in the later stages of his tenure at RFC* – a time at which the EBT issue and resulting illegal registration of players was to the fore. Stating this to be the case allows him – in some eyes – to claim that he is not compromised in his subsequent position with the SFA.

A letter now available to the public appears to show that Campbell Ogilvie was in fact heavily involved in arranging player payments later than he claims (and also through a means found by HMRC to be illegal).

I know you are wary of using material from the source making this letter available, but ANY CHANCE OF ASKING CO IF THIS LETTER IS GENUINE AND IF HE DID INDEED SIGN SUCH A REQUEST? Thanks Tom.
(Capitals indicate frustration).

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ForresDeePosted on11:57 am - Aug 27, 2013


nawlite says:
August 27, 2013 at 11:42 am

Sent him a tweet, just in case he hasn’t been looking in 😉

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tic6709Posted on12:02 pm - Aug 27, 2013


ecobhoy says:

August 27, 2013 at 10:45 am
=====================
Well said ecobhoy,bang on the money.

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AuldheidPosted on12:25 pm - Aug 27, 2013


Barcabhoy
What I find interesting is the apparent lack of reference to the DOS based scheme in the LNS decision.
What I have not done (but Im hoping ecobhoy will be able to help), is to confirm if the terms of reference for LNS investigation made any mention of the DOS scheme. I could not see any but am reluctant to state as fact.
The reason why I think this important is that the DOS scheme was found by an FTT and subsequently confirmed by a UTT to be an improper ( perhaps illegal is more appropriate) means of avoiding payment of tax that was due.
There is also the fact that in the DOS scheme Rangers did more than not reveal the existence of side letters to the SFA, they told HMRC that they could find none when HMRC enquired.
So in the DOS case we had none of the ingredients that allowed the EBT FTT and LNS to come to the same conclusion he did on the EBT case because a) The payments were improper and b) in not telling HMRC when specifically asked of the existence of side letters ( a lie if you like) Rangers clearly knew they had something to hide and it was not oversight not to register the DOS payments.

This takes the issue in respect of these paymemts out of the failure of administration category that EBTs fell into under LNS, to deliberately witholding information from authority. This is by a mile much different from failure to seek appropriate advice.

If there is no mention in the LNS terms of reference to the DOS I was prepared to put that down to ignorance on part of the SPL whom I believe it was decided would commission LNS to leave SFA as appeal body. However with the knowledge that CO was involved in the DOS scheme it puts the whole question of the LNS enquiry back on the table.
If no mention of examination of DOS made separately in the commisioning why not? The scheme involved not paying tax by a method (although no longer in dispute) and it involved side letters that were not registered with the SFA. The enquiry was careful to look at historical context in terms of the registration rules in place at the time to see if they were breached or not but appears not to have made any distinction between share based DOS and loan based EBTs. Strange, especially since the SFA had to be involved in the commissioning of LNS to have decided not to take the lead.
I always thought that strange given it is the SFA who hold the registrations and it seems strange too that the SPL were not advised ( if indeed this is so) that there was a marked distinction between DOS and EBTs and what that distinction was.
That distinction started in late 2010 and crystalised in March 2011 when Rangers and HMRC reached agreement on settlement. Not sure when LNS was commissioned or how informed those doing the commissioning were, but if after 31 March 2011 the wee tax case created by DOS was in the public domain and surely would have been considered if LNS commisioning took place later than then.

Ps for the avoidance of doubt I dont care if this throws doubt on the 2003 title Rangers won with De Boer in the team. I would gladly surrender on that point given it would only produce another debate in the” same club” argument, but I do want to know just how conflicted CO was and how he influenced SFA strategy in dealing with the DOS case and its consequences now we know he was party to the scheme.

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BloodownthelooPosted on12:39 pm - Aug 27, 2013


Hello all, I am a previous RTC user (I even used to post there occasionally although with a different userid) who has finally found the impetus to register here.

I have this recurring thought rumbling around my head that I want to put out for comment. I think it is widely accepted that TRFC is being subsidised by RIFC and that almost certainly the properties are being used as security for these loans. So what happens if RIFC calls in the loan? TRFC loses the properties. Now if the value of the properties is less than the loan advanced and TRFC can’t pay, then it’s administration for TRFC, isn’t it?

A proper administration would see the high earners punted (Ally, Elbows, Black, the so-called trialists etc). The administrator would likely even void the season tickets (has to be done to save the business, after all!). Naturally, there is an outcry of biblical proportions and TRFC (now turned into a viable business) is hurriedly sold to “Rangers men” – not for £1, but something much larger (how much could you get? More money for the spivs!). Of course, there is now a rental agreement on Ibrox payable to RIFC which can now change the company name to something more appropriate. I’m still thinking about what the spivs could then do with the renamed RIFC; I think I’ve gone far enough for the moment!

Does that work? Are there flaws in my reasoning? Am I taking things too far? Is there a closet spiv in me trying to get out? Maybe we need Goosey at this point?

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AuldheidPosted on12:43 pm - Aug 27, 2013


FIFA
I’ll offer another possibility.
Given how long CO has been in the game how many bodies does he know the location of the burial?

Given how corrupt Scottish football appears to be what are the chances there are no bodies?

Has CO the equivalent of Ally’s list of names of players who bet?

The game in Scotland needs cleansed and it looks like the cleaners are afraid to enter the room in case mud sticks.

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Galling fiverPosted on12:47 pm - Aug 27, 2013


The leaks are from within Mordor.

He wants out, or is it just another cutback at sevco.

They don’t want an old OF game in the cup for a while in case they get humped. And he has to leave the room so people can talk about him…. I mean Sevco.

What use is he, if he’s no use to sevco.

Bye bye, I hope.

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Matty RothPosted on1:14 pm - Aug 27, 2013


Been a while since I posted but thought I’d share a few scattered thoughts:-

– On JI’s return as PR for RIFC is it just me or was this the first time the announcement referred to specifically JI being appointed rather than Media House being appointed? Why would that be?

– Given the latest CO revelations can fans really stand back and wait for a journalist to investigate this rather than start to take matters into our hands and organise some sort of campaign of protests to his continuing in office.

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Tif FinnPosted on1:18 pm - Aug 27, 2013


If the Rangers manager (or anyone else) has a list of players who he know placed bets on football, in contravention of the rules, then I would like to think the relevant authorities have contacted him and instructed that he pass those details on to them.

Any other course of action is simply unacceptable, as is him refusing to hand the details over. The game will never be cleaned up if people are simply allowed to ignore rule breaking when it suits them. Or more accurately use it when it suits a “whatabout” defence without actually providing the proof to the relevant authorities.

Or is this simply another example of Mr McCoist being allowed to say anything he wants, make any accusations he wants, with no action being taken. Is the man really not subject to the same rules as everyone else.

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bad capt madmanPosted on1:21 pm - Aug 27, 2013


Scunner! Out!
Scunner! Out!
Scunner, Scunner, Scunner!
Out! Out! Out!

That’s the extent of my biting wit and piercing analysis for today.
Coincidently, it’ll be as much use as anything else, as the totality of club representatives in the country seem quite content that the Scunner is in (but probably won’t see you).

I’m reminded of Catch 22 when the only time anyone got in to Major Major’s office to see him was when he was out, but if he was in, you couldn’t go in to see him. Just how far sighted was the author….

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redlichtiePosted on1:26 pm - Aug 27, 2013


From the BBC website :
1249: FOOTBALL

BBC Scotland’s senior football reporter Chris McLaughlin: Shakhter Karagandy boss Viktor Kumykov not ruling out sacrificing a sheep again before game against Celtic in Glasgow on Wednesday. Kumykov says ‘shouldn’t be too difficult finding a sheep in Scotland’.

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Aberdeen fans are not going to be happy about this! There do however appear to be a huge number of sheep in Govan Meadows…. 🙂

Scottish football needs a strong Scottish SPCA.

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